Dec 28, 2009
Her Parents Rejected Us

Shidduchim SOS: We heard about this nice girl that friends say will match our son. But her parents rejected the offer. What now?

Shidduch question:

We are parents to a very good bochur who is at shidduch age: a masmid, goes on mivtzoim, has manners and is responsible and clean.

We get many offers and look through them all. Recently we heard about a very nice girl from Crown Heights who, according to her family members and friends, would match our son.

The thing is that her parents said no. Is there anything we can do? How do we go about it? We really want her for him.

Mrs. Sarah Junik's answer:

First of all let me wish you hatzlacha rabo in your search, may you find his zivug in a "sha'a tova umutzlachas".

I cannot answer specifically, as I need more details which, I understand, you would be loath to publish in a public forum, but I can address the subject in general.

It helps to know when and how the rejection took place. Depending whether the rejection was at the very first stages of the shidduch, or further along, possibly after a meeting, one would put more or less effort to change the "no" to a "maybe".

A common possibility is when we have researched a name that sounded promising (a name that was suggested a by various individuals, as mentioned in the letter above) but when our information was presented to the other side, we were told that they said no, the shidduch was not for them.

We should understand that when a shidduch is rejected without a satisfactory reason we feel hurt for the rejection and at a loss for how to fix it. We feel that if only we knew what the objection was, we could explain it away or prevent this from happening again.

What we should feel though is that this was not the right time, or maybe -even though so many people suggested it – this was not the "Bashert" that we were looking for.
If it was the right time or the right person then surely it would have come about.

Hashgacha Protis in shidduchim is blatant. When things have to happen they do. It does not matter if, like in the stories we hear, a neighbor gives bad reports, or a brother keeps rejecting suggestions. When the right one comes, the neighbor will be out of town and the brother unreachable.

That is why many people are happier when a "no" comes from the other side and not from them. They are happy not to take the achrayus of having rejected a potential zivug, and they know that if it is the right one after all, the Aibishter will bring it about at the right time in His own way.

On the other hand the family who is doing the rejecting does not have to give a reason for not following through on a suggestion. Whatever their reason may be, it is their choice to accept or reject a shidduch (hopefully well thought out and not for frivolous reasons).

In the case described in the letter, being that family members seem to be involved, maybe a relative could approach the parents of the girl and call attention to what a good suggestion this really is, how they personally know the boy etc. They could explain all the reasons why these two are a match, i.e. same goals, compatible characters, midos etc. If this does not work, then it is better to look elsewhere. B"H there are a lot of exceptional girls in Lubavitch.

May we hear good news soon from you and from all the other "I" that are looking for an "us."

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Opinions and Comments
Surprising. . .
Its really surprising, because its ALWAYS ALWAYS the ''boys parents'' that reject the offer, NOT the girls, because the boys have "soooooooooooooooo many to choose from". . and I know that many many agree with me. . If a boy hears of a girl that who be even just ONE year older than him (C"V) the family won't even LOOK into the suggestion , no matter how good the match may be. . . Do you have ANY idea, how many Shidduchim would take place, if only the boys agreed to meet the girl even if she is slightly younger than him;
So in answer to your question, "What now??" . . "Nothing. . just join the looong queue. . . "

Disillusioned and Disappointed
(12/28/2009 12:39:08 PM)
Chazan Yitzchok Lebovics, Shadchan in Montreal
Thank you Mrs Junik for explaining this situation so well. As a shadchan, I recognized the situations that came up many times in suggestions I was involved in, but the part I identify most with is where you say
'Hashgacha Protis in shiduchim is blatant' I have seen it many times B'H
As in general with the inyan of hashgocho protis, we don't just sit idly and wait for the brochos to fall into our laps, but once we have done our hishtadlus, we have to recognize with humility Who the Brochos come from and that a 'no' is an answer from the same Source as the 'yes'
Hatzlocho Rabbo to all who are seeking their Bashert,
and may it happen now.
(12/28/2009 12:40:50 PM)
Very nice
I think we should do this more often!
For it is really helping people who have children, friends, and relatives who are in need of shidduchim. Especially this one which focuses on a very important issue that many people have never approached before.
I would like a give a big Yasher Koach to COLLIVE for producing such helpful articles on this topic.
You should be blessed with everyone you may need in physical and spiritual things.
(12/28/2009 12:53:02 PM)
A fellow mother of a clean bochur
Clean? What exactly does clean mean? Is that a euphemism for "chassidish but worldly"? Maybe your son is too clean, did you think of that? The biggest problem amongst bochurim is their addiction to cleanliness, maybe that can finally be addressed in this very appropriate forum.

My son, for example, wears slippers in the mikva. Slippers in the mikva I say! How are we supposed to have a generation of yungerlite who don't appreciate the kedusha of mikva and feel the need to wear slippers when there.

Thank you, Ad Mosai, Ad Mosai, Ad Mosai!!!.
(12/28/2009 1:03:38 PM)
To Number 1
Its good to know that you think its always the Boys saying no. I as a Boy had lots of No's in the past while and NOT from a boy ;-). The way I take it is, if they said No then its obvious not the right one and Thank you hashem for saving my time and Money (i would have spent going out with her) instead now i'm 1 closer to the real Bashert may I find her Sooner then Later ;-)
(12/28/2009 1:24:29 PM)
a mommy
as a mother of boys and girls b"h ,if some one says no
we don`t take it to heat and say NEXT.......
(12/28/2009 1:24:55 PM)
i say
contact the girl directly if possible

so many times the parents wish to get married again and search for everything they didn't get in their own spouses
(12/28/2009 1:55:58 PM)
Mother of Boys
The boys are always the villains and the girls are always the victims, right? I wish I had a dime for every girl who played games, said "no" for dumb reasons, didn't get back with an answer after a date, dumped boys after weeks of dating...
After awhile I stopped feeling sorry for girls who were older and not married. Many times they had chances and turned them down so I don't feel sorry for them. Not all boys and their mothers are as picky as they are made out to be.
(12/28/2009 2:18:18 PM)
Think about this!
Rejection is G-d's Protection!!!
(12/28/2009 2:50:14 PM)
I agree with number 4
It starts off with slippers in the Mikvah and then it ends up with daring to bring shampoo... What is the world coming to?
(12/28/2009 2:50:58 PM)
a nice girl who wants your son
can i have him? im into clean
(12/28/2009 3:32:09 PM)
(12/28/2009 3:51:46 PM)
I remember the days when you could just use the soap that was sitting on the shelf in the mikva! Today?!! Chas vsholom , you need a new bar of soap and a shower every day!?
(12/28/2009 4:06:36 PM)
The same Happend to me
My parents said no too, but I cajoled them into atleast letting me try it. Since they had only one issue with his backgorund that they were not happy about. I told them i am old enough to get married, perhaps I am old enough too to decide if that particular issue is a deciding factor.
Well B'h though he wasn't my first, he was my last and that is history.
So I say pursue it!!!!!!!!!!!!
(12/28/2009 4:25:59 PM)
helpful suggestion
Here is a GREAT idea !!!!!

Why not have the young couples think of their single friends and work on shidduchim for them !!. They would be doing a toiva and making shadchanis gelt !!
(12/28/2009 4:34:52 PM)
We are from crown heights and have a daughter that a particular name came up several times (our family is real Gesza and our daughter is an A in everything) the boy is from a BT family but a very good bochur. We wanted the shiduch but our daughter did not like the first name of the bochur and we culd not convince her to meet the boucher. The other family felt bad and sent somebody again and again.

So if you hear a no maybe IT IS the girl who said no and the mother or father or somebody else.

May hakodosh boruch hu send the right on b`korov.
(12/28/2009 5:25:15 PM)
How about:
I think the real question here should be: if you get a "no" should you try again - other shadchanim or friends?

I heard stories that prove persistence does help or is it just annoying?
(12/28/2009 5:56:20 PM)
Men's mikvaos are not so clean all the time
(12/28/2009 6:27:49 PM)
If someone gives "no" as their answer, why do they HAVE to give a reason?? So the other side can get all defensive and start to justify, or deny, and try to convince you that noooo, he's not really like that, and really they ARE perfect for each other?? Sorry, but if they looked into the name and decided "No", not for us, then move on.
(12/28/2009 8:27:47 PM)
doomed to being single for ever?
Some of the reasons for rejecting a potential spouse are insane. I think # 16's is near the top of the list...she didn't like his first name. WOW! I am stunned! I feel sorry for #16 in having such a difficult daughter. Obviously, they are frustrated by this narishkeit too.

And then we wonder why there is a shidduch crisis!
(12/28/2009 8:47:09 PM)
Halivai being 'clean' should be merachek a shidduch
There are much worse things we have to deal with in our world of choshech kaful umchupal.
(12/28/2009 9:28:50 PM)
It's not the kedusha of the mikveh that they don't appreciate otherwise why would they be going to begin with??? But it's till they get into the mikveh itself! Why does chasidish have to mean being smelly or have infected feet? I don't get it!
(12/28/2009 11:22:29 PM)
correction to # 16

So if you hear a no maybe IT IS the girl who said no and NOT the mother or father or somebody else.
(12/29/2009 12:11:44 AM)
Shampoo? soap? feh! That's the problem. Tell your son not to take a shower for a few months and the phone wont stop ringing!
(12/29/2009 2:31:23 AM)
If you REALLY want this girl...
Try a different shliach. Sometimes the messenger isn't the right key to the lock. Investigate who has influence with the girl/her parents, have them present your case. She just might reconsider at the right moment, or after another choice bochur falls through. Hatzlocha!
(12/29/2009 2:32:29 AM)
i have a question for mrs junik-
how would i ask her? email address?
and in every scenario there is always the other side- what if its a boy that has said no many many times? you try again. thats it!
(12/29/2009 3:49:42 AM)
TO 14 AND 17
i second ur story #14 and to #17 i only went out with him about a year after the first person suggested the shidduch.
(12/29/2009 4:30:04 AM)
#4 You are soooo funny
Do you want you son to have toe fungus or athlete's foot? What's wrong with you?! Being connected to G-d, Torah, the Rebbe, and so on has nothing to do with being dirty or ill... On the contrary, the poskim say that it's forbidden for a Talmid Chochom (or ben Torah) to walk around with dirty, stained, or ripped clothing.
All I can say is that thank G-d you're not my mother...
(12/29/2009 4:38:08 AM)
to #26
You can email Mrs. Junik at and ask your question I think she great and has lots of wisdom and experience in this field.
Specify in you email to her if you want it to be in a public forum, if yes then when she answer's your question you can email the question and answer to Collive.
Thanks so much to Collive for posting such Op-Ed's and bringing these vital issues to everyone's attention.
A groisen Yasher Koiach!!!
(12/29/2009 4:42:51 AM)
i say skip the parents, and go directly to the source ie: boy/girl)
you get things done much faster that way. going through parents is just a pian in the neck.

i the girl or guy is old and mature enough to get married, then i think he or she is also old enough to make his/her own to decision wheather to go out with someone...

what is up with 25-30 yr old guys who are still going throhg their mommys for shiduchim!!!]??? it's time to cut the umbilicall cord and start making your own decisions!!!!
(12/29/2009 5:40:49 AM)
answer #30
(12/29/2009 6:36:14 AM)
to # 20
The general rule is that everyone has a zivug. However not necessarily does everyone have one.
(12/29/2009 6:37:16 AM)
To #30
families have been destroyed due to the fact that people think that they are mature enough to make their own decision!!!
(12/29/2009 7:04:50 AM)
#32- what does that mean?
either you have a zivug or you don't[
and what about people who go through more than one marriage r"l???? Who was their zivug?
(12/29/2009 7:09:33 AM)
to #33
OK, THAT'S A LITTLE DRASTIC.. it's really not a big deal to not go through the parents.. it's been done before with many good outcomes!!

in the end it is the boy and girl who are sitting there on the date alone. they should be able to say who they want to go out with.

do you know how many times i have tried to set up a shidduch, and i speak to the mother, who says no, and i am almost positive that the guy doesn't even get the name of the girl from his mother. she just takes it into her liberty to say no for him... what a chutzpah!!!

the mothers always think they know their sons better than the sons know themselves...
mothers, your sons have minds of their own, let them have the main say as to what they want to do with their lives, after all IT IS THEIR LIFE!!
(12/29/2009 7:20:26 AM)
to # 35
my rabbi's daughter went and married without permission from the parents and he didnt even go to their wedding!!
(12/29/2009 7:44:59 AM)
NO PARENT NEED TO GIVE PERMISION TO GET MARRIED.we are living in a free country, not iran.
unless there is a really legitimate reason why they shouldn;t get married, then the only thing the parents need to do, is give their blessing, not permision. their kid is not two anymore and they should have a lttle faith in their child

and by legitimate, i mean that there is something realy and truelly wrong with the guy... not that the parents don't like something about his anscesters etc....
(12/29/2009 7:58:44 AM)
Well, this is the same old retoric we hear over and over from our children. We don't get it, we don't understand, we are from a different generation etc. etc. etc. AND THEN, there is a Sholom Bayis problem... who gets the first phone call? US. Who needs to listen, support, help, cry, say tehillim, go to the ohel... US PARENTS. Why is it that we only get it when things are not going right, but if our children are going rogue... we just dont understand?? Children need their parents at any age - especially with Shidduchim/Marriage because the children just dont have the experience. GET IT???
(12/29/2009 8:14:31 AM)
I disagree w- 30
30, ur making a big mistake. if a mother send a kid on a date then the kid decide if its good or not. but when it goes straight through him he is a nogeah badavar and cant decide correctly. and yes, 25-30 is not always old enough, bh your parents have more experience in life than you do...
(12/29/2009 8:24:38 AM)
to #38
not all shidduchim that don't go through the parents, end badly.
actually i don't think there is any real number out there that shows that shidduchim that don't go through the parents end with sholom bayis problems. on the contrary, i kknow of many happy marriages ...

i am not saying that every shidduch hasto be without the parents, but i have learned from experience that there are one too many controlling mother out there... and i just think they should give their sons/dauhgters a voice too
(12/29/2009 8:35:06 AM)
to #38
just because you had a bad experience does not mean it is the same for everyone
(12/29/2009 8:36:12 AM)
ps: whoever is going on and on about mikveh's, u are all off topic.... totally missed the point of the article
(12/29/2009 8:41:18 AM)
just because some shidduchim that went w-o parents were successful, i think that shidduchim are supposed to be through parents and all the people posting happy marriages are not proving anything. people can make mistakes, too.
(12/29/2009 9:38:25 AM)
to 34
Not everyone has one end of story.
(12/29/2009 9:55:32 AM)
To #38
You wrote: “we hear over and over from our children. We don't get it, we don't understand, we are from a different generation etc.”

I would like to give some advice to any parent who feels that way: GO GET HELP!

Many parents feel that way, and they think that this is just the way children are, ALL children feel not understood by their parents! – this is not the case. There are many parents who have proper communications skills and know HOW to validate their children’s feelings in a way that their children feel UNDERSTOOD, and feel like their parents ALWAYS GET IT!

But for someone who was brought up in a not understanding environment, in order to be understanding and come across understanding, they need to learn new methods of communication (and if they don’t they will just complain that children are just so obnoxious and unappreciative etc. etc.)

As a kid I used to complain that my parents don’t understand etc. and they used to tell me that when I’m a parent my kids will say the same about me (and they even added the logic that it’s Hashems way of punishing me…)

In the end they would have been right if I would use the same methods of communication they used, but Hashem was kind to me and in the first year of my marriage someone taught me how to “validate feelings” and other communication skills. Besides for my Shalom Bayis getting better with my wife, when I had kids it started off right and I have Shalom Bayis with them, and none of my kids ever feel that I don’t get it or I don’t understand them. – and now I see so many parents having “problems” with their children that I thank Hashem that I don’t have those problems because I know HOW to listen to my kids and how to respond.

BTW I once heard a speaker saying that parents should get to know how to use Ipods and other modern Smechikes, so that their children feel like they relate to them. I personally think that’s nonsense, if you know how to make a child feel understood then you can have a white beard till the floor and not speak a word of English and your children will feel that you just get it, and if you don’t know how to validate a child’s feeling, you can be the most into OHA”Z, wearing jeans and texting on your new cell phone a whole day, and your children will feel that you don’t get it!
(12/29/2009 10:03:15 AM)
Mother of Boys
To #35, why is it us MOBs who are always the villains? To me the mothers of girls are always looking for a top boy for their amazing daughters because after her inspiring year at sem, she qualifies for top stuff. These mothers and their daughters turn away many boys sight unseen and then blame the mothers of boys when the girl is still single many years later. They have been taught to be outgoing all their lives at camp and school and quiet boys are not on their radar screen. I don't blame them for wanting what they want but then boys have that right as well. By the way, do you ask your daughter about every boy who is suggested or do you decide for yourself? Some singles get mighty tired of hearing name after name and would really appreciate it if their parents do a little research before dumping it on them.
How do you know that the mothers are not allowing the sons to decide whether to go out or not? I always tell my son when someone is interested but I don't lie and say that she is from a united family when the parents are divorced or say that she is thin when she is chubby. I tell him the results of my investigation and let him decide. If he says "no" to the suggestion or offer, don't blame me. If I already know that he will say "no" to a girl several years older or several inches taller than him, I then have the chutzpah to turn down the suggestion without consulting him. If a boy has always been on the derech, the mother is well within her rights to decline a suggestion regarding a girl who has been off the derech and was behaving in an untznius way with boys, even if she is behaving properly now. I guess that us MOBs and our sons have no rights, only the girls have those rights. Aren't women always victims ?
(12/29/2009 11:08:53 AM)
to #46
i does work both ways with boys and girls... i didn't mean to only harp on about boys. maybe i did a bit, bc i was once a girl going thru all this,
i do have brothers who all went thru shudduchim and they all just seemed to have a much easier time than us girls.

i am now married, and just get frustrated when trying to set up friends and trying to deal with the mothers... for many reasons

all you young couples out there, DON'T FORGET THAT U WERE ONCE SINGLE , think for a second about a single friend that is still hanging out and try to set them up
(12/29/2009 11:51:11 AM)
its hysterical to read through all the comments they are so funny !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
(12/29/2009 1:27:37 PM)
TO #42
i totally agree with u. a bunch of short minded ppl there are in this world.
(12/29/2009 1:35:05 PM)
ok this is FUNNY
clean boys are good! u can never be too clean so guys keep those flip flops on in mikvah-its hot!;)
girls stop being so difficult and saying no for stupid reasons and guys stop thinking the next girl will be better stop digging for gold and go out!!!! have fun and find ur bashert in a kosher way!
(12/29/2009 2:16:47 PM)
I've seen one side of parents saying no (without their child even knowing about the offer), and a year or 2 later say yes. Then, after the wedding and 1-2 children later the child who didn't know says "you said no originally!!... but why??!!"
I guess G-d just wanted it to happen a year or 2 later....
(12/29/2009 3:58:13 PM)
i have
i have a doter that is a real chassideshe girl and i dont let her get married unless i know who he is
(12/29/2009 4:56:04 PM)
mazal tov choson and kalla
choson and kalla is a great mitzva and all of you Yetzer horas that want to stop marriage it is Crazy and you people are all absent minded and wrong why? b/c according to the rambam you have to get married and if you dont you get punished so they have to get married so dont let people but in to your marriageable business
(12/29/2009 6:43:13 PM)
Rebbe's Advice, and some thoughts from a parent..
The Rebbe concerning a shidduch once said that "the brother knows the boys and the sister the girls" so in shidduchim you need the advice of the family who know you and the boy or girl. We also find this in halacha concerning a "defect" (mumm) the Rambam states if they have a close family member they would have known and this would have been accepted. meaning that the proper procedure is that the prospective shidduch IS checked out by a close family member. On the rejection points to ponder... True you cant judge a book by its cover but a person is judged bikiso bkahso bkoso... If he / she has a temper and blow a fuse when things don't go their way.. the mothers' have a full right and privilege to protect their CHILD]]] if on shabbos they dont feel it appropriate to put on a hat and jacket.. you cant blame a girl for not respecting him.. if the mother wears a very short skirt, you cant blame the boy for saying "I dont want her to be the bubbe- grandmother of my children"... some people (the Rebbe.. other great chassidim.. and other happily married couples today) married a girl a year or more older than them.. and some a "foot" shorter... to others this is a point they care about... to some they want to look up at their husband.. so they need the height... some the mind... some the age... some can look beyond the physical SOME CANT.. it might be shortsighted BUT THATS WHO THEY ARE]] and its too late to change.. them at this point... there is an old saying " a shidduch neit mehn nisht" you dont force a shidduch.. if it goes.. it flows.. if not LET IT GO]]]]
(12/29/2009 11:44:42 PM)
help with shiduchim?
(12/30/2009 1:42:18 AM)
#15 great idea #55 help with shidduchim
yes it should and yes it does bother many of us Anash that there are girls and boys past 25! The suggestion that #15 made is a great idea.!! Young couples could be very helpful by remembering their classmates from high school, seminary , yeshivos, shlichus, etc.......and guests....shadchanus gelt is not a bad bonus!!!!
(12/30/2009 4:59:53 AM)
The "professional" shadchanim often have fame of not caring, and just trying to sell you second hand "merchandise."

It's not the same if a good friend, or neighbor calls. The issue is that those good friends say "yes.. I might have someone, but ... I dont know if it is right... I'm not a professional.. "

And then the thing dies. If our friends would consider how lazy and uncaring shadchanim are (try calling and getting through to most of them, try to arrange a meeting in person with these snobs, "I would be meeting people all day," etc), then they will see that their attempt is much better and will be more effective.

In fact according to a poll I saw, 80 % of shidduchim are made through friends, the rest via shadchanim.


(12/30/2009 5:11:55 AM)
(12/30/2009 7:43:50 AM)
I Agree with #56 and #57
Why can’t married friends spend five minutes a day and think whom they can set their friends up with??? I am 26 and unmarried and haven't even been set up on even a single date by one friend yet, only by lousy shadchanim. Every time I go out its with someone who a shadchan suggested, and it hasn't worked, they don’t know whom they’re selling and to whom. I was engaged already once and that was set up by a shadchan as well and that didn’t work, I think mostly because the name was taken out of a hat and we tried and there was lots of pressure to get engaged because I am gezhe and she is gezhe and my parents don’t have a tv in the house and neither do theirs so theres a shidduch, but that doesn’t work. So I beg and plead from all you married friends of boys and girls help this big problem and spend those five minutes while you’re eating dinner together, or when you’re walking to shul together on shabbos and think and I promise you, you’ll see miracles and how many more shidduchim will be made, there needs to be an attitude change and till that happens this shidduch crisis will only get worse and there will ch”v continue to be so many more older singles out there waiting and waiting to find their bashert. Married friends, look how many more shidduchim esspecially with older singles would be made because of you if you would only put in the effort, Just imagine what a zechus you would have, that because of you a Jewish home will be built, think about it, and if you don’t get shaking or moving then something is seriously wrong with you!!!!
(12/30/2009 8:09:17 AM)
shadchanim as profesion does NOT EXIST
(12/30/2009 10:18:20 AM)
to 54
Funny you quote the Rebbe here. My family got specific advice from the Rebbe NOT to let the siblings "Mish Zich Arein" in a shidduch. The brothers of a girl were trying to stop a shidduch with a bochur they knew. They were trying to convince their parents and sister that it was not a good idea. They consulted the Rebbe who wrote back (and we still have the letter)- that the siblings should keep out as they are biased toward their sister.
(12/31/2009 4:25:51 AM)
being single
To all older girls and happens to us all in the right time the meantime enjoy living your life make the most of it .every situation has its bright side find it . hashem has given us this time to work on ourself on our midos so when we do get married yih, we can go into it as better ppl hopfully!!!!!!!..........when i do get married yih i dont want to look back regret ing wasting this precious time crying and complaining, instead ill be greatfully that i used every second to the fullest.....hatzlacha to you all....were all in the same boat .achdus!!!!!!!!!!
(1/1/2010 12:25:08 AM)
when will we do rabbinically supervised speed-dating?
what about when a parent approaches the shadchan and requests that the shadchan approach the parents of a specific girl or boy..and the shadchan feels they are G-ds messenger and tells the parents "I don't think this shiddach is suitable" reason given. A clever parent will then approach another shadchan or tell this shadchan, if this is their shadchan of choice, I am not asking your opinion, I am asking you to call the parents. Too many people think they are G-ds right hand!
(1/2/2010 1:30:30 PM)
main issue here
I thing the main issue in the question was: the parents said no, many others said yes. Is it possible that the parents are making a mistake and if so, is it proper to "go around them" and if yes, how.

Rebitzin Junik writes that there needs to be more details to answer specifically.

I am writing this because it seems from the many posts that some people are not aware of the values of our present shiduch system. (which like our 'healthcare' is getting lots of flak for a supposed 'crisis' due to the few issues which generate lots of noise, while neglecting to give it credit for the fact that it is indeed the best in existence, period.)

The Torah, as specified by the Rebbe and many other poskim give the boy/girl and ONLY them the right to choose who to marry. However, because of our self-love we are the blindest judges of flaws which may be destructive in a relationship (and may be a non-issue for someone else) a beautiful girl which may have a temper, a charming guy with a lousy work ethic etc. Therefore, the prospect themselves is in most cases the worst judge of who to select to date, being the closest and the most blind to crucial issues.

In most healthy families the task of selecting candidates falls on the parents. In fact, the first sign of a wise and mature prospect would be their response to a proposed shiduch. In most cases they would say, "Please don't mention anything to me, my mother/father is doing all the research". Sometimes a parent is truly out of touch and a prospect might suggest a friend/teacher/mashpia etc.

Completely forgoing this system would be neglecting a tool which Hashem gave us to protect against inborn faults which lead to destructive relationships. It does sometimes, like in the questioner’s case, lead to bottlenecks which in this case the questioner thinks may be unwarranted.

People have also found great shiduchim entirely without the shiduch system, however, aside from the fact that there is no way to judge what happens behind closed doors, hitting a bulls-eye is not the sighn of a great archer, unless they do it consistenly. Individual examples could be luck, the archer could also have been aiming for something else entirely. Our ‘system’ has been proven to have a tremendous success rate, and is what brought us to this point from point A, three and a half thousand years ago.

The first thing to do, as some suggest, would be to try a different “salesman”. Approach a friend of the family, a rabbi they respect, a family member, etc. and try to sell them about the shiduch and have them approach again, perhaps trying a different angle. [practical note: you don’t need to present the whole truth, i.e. the second salesman doesn’t need to say “the family was rejected and asked me to try again” they could say “I was walking down Kingson avenue when I thought of the greatest shiduch for your child” without mentioning that the reason that they thought of it while walking down Kinston Ave. was because you were walking next to them, telling them that – as long as they truthfully (now) feel that it is a good shiduch]

If that still dosen’t work, than a few questions to the questioner. Is there a reason to believe that the parents don't have the child's full confidence? If so, knowing the parents and the family dynamic are you still interested in pursuing it? (i.e. you can see why the disconnect is there and it makes sense, or the child may be a free thinker but so is the person that you are thinking of). In that case one thing that you might try is to approach the child themselves and ask them who they trust to research shiduchim. They may takke say someone other than the person that you’ve been discussing this with up until now. Although there may be hurt feelings on the part of the parents, that’s between the child an his/her parents (and an obvious issue to consider when pursuing this shiduch further…).

One thing that I would not do and I feel would be wrong, would be to approach the prospect directly with the name of the prospective shiduch. That would be using a fault which the Torah describes, our own self love, in this case the prospect’s possible mistaken agreement to the idea, to your benefit over the family’s better judgment. In this case, even thought the child made their own choice (and this is not Iran) the Torah specifically warns us of the potential judgmental faults at issue here and it would be wrong to abuse that to your advantage.

- By not signing this I am leaving everything here completely up to the discretion of the reader…

(1/2/2010 8:02:59 PM)
(1/3/2010 7:34:06 AM)
to #43
I bet ur a parent!!!!!!
(1/3/2010 12:17:54 PM)
to #65, try webcam dating (shidduch-vision)
There is no reason to travel before trying shidduch-vision which is really getting somewhere in Lakewood and other Litvish communities. People can have a webcam date or two before committing to travel. Not all men (nor all women) can take unlimited time off of work and park themselves in a strange city and do nothing all day while the woman works during the day. Many men have had bad experiences associated with traveling for dates and the most men will not continue to do things that they find are uncomfortable; especially when they are getting plenty of dates with girls in NY. Both families should split the cost of travel or it there is not much incentive to travel. Remember that years ago, people did not date as many people or date each person for as long before deciding to marry someone.
(1/3/2010 3:13:54 PM)
to #67
most guys dont want to do this web cam thing or even talk on the phone b/c they are to chassidsh .........
(1/4/2010 6:16:55 AM)
To everyone!
This is amazing! 69 comments!
(1/4/2010 9:45:01 AM)
slippers in the mikveh
Mommy, please be grateful that your grown son goes all by himself to the mikveh. It is a very lofty thing to do and not everybody feels connected to the inyan, and similarly to wearing a hat, davening with a minyan daily, keeping sedarim, staying away from questionable vdeos..the list goes on. Here you have a really frum boy that so many families would be thrilled about. Hold on tight, the best is yet to come. And besides, your son's kallah will thank her lucky stars thatt her husband is not a slob.
(7/7/2010 12:59:53 PM)
Shadchanim? Rejection?
There are two themes in this discussion I want to comment on. The first is a response to all the negativity toward Shadchanim. There are many different personalities in all fields and this is certainly true about Shadchanim. I've worked with some who didn't seem to care one whit, some who I thought were completely meshugga, and some who really worked to the nth degree for us.

And as to the idea of being "rejected" - there can be a really nice person from a really nice family who is suggested to another family. We had someone we thought was a wonderful person suggested to us, and from a nice stable family that we respected. But when we and our child discussed it, we realized that for a variety of reasons, the shidduch just would not work. The reasons were NOT shallow. I felt bad because the other family was very hurt. It can be very hard to see that, when a family says "no," it often just means that they don't think it's a good fit. A puzzle piece is important to the whole puzzle, but it can only match with certain other pieces.
(8/17/2010 1:51:18 AM)
To #4
There is a difference between wearing slippers in the mikvah and wearing slippers TO the mikvah. If you're not in a bungalow colony,for example, wearing slippers on the way from yeshivah/home to the mikvah is mighty "prust" looking. I cringe whenever I see this and wouldn't be looking for a son-in-law who sees "nothing wrong with it." Just my take on the matter...
(12/12/2010 1:51:06 PM)
just want to say something
I'm from Toronto (not that it matters, and not that I live there anymore B"H), and if I hadn't been stupid enough to involve my mother, I would have been married eight months sooner, at the very least. As it was, my family was not at the wedding, because of difficulties presented to us by my mother. (And MIL foresaw these, but didn't warn me, because she didn't want to shake the relationship between me and my mother.)

Parents are not always the best option - sometimes they really don't care about their children, and sometimes they are just so egocentric that it's throw-up-itating. B"H not all parents are like that, but I think that some people have a right to skip asking their parents, and should find a responsible adult to help them instead. Oh, and even though I talk to MIL about a lot of things (sholom bayis not among them), I try to be civil to my mother and end the conversations there. The rule: "Anything I don't want to tell all of Toronto, I shouldn't tell my mother." And no, I haven't regretted getting married - I just regret trusting my mother. And yes, I found a replacement for her, and sometimes - but not often - I do talk to the replacement about sholom bayis. But because my husband is a good person and mature (and I hope that I am too), we don't usually have issues.

But point being - everyone except my mother thought that this shidduch was a good thing. So, parents are not always the best people to ask.
(2/15/2012 7:35:04 AM)
Archaic system needs to go
It's high time that marriage-minded girls and boys took matters into their own hands and started getting to know each other away from all these bigoted, small-minded, nitpicking adults. The only reason shidduchim work out at all is a game of chance. The shadchanim have the few lucky numbers in between so many failures and disasters and mismatches based on superficial qualities, external beauty, money and status.
For the record, i find it deplorable to be reading about a girl's dress size as a way to describe her body type. It is really crass and crude. Women are not dolls or mannequins. We are complex, wonderful, deep human beings, as are men, and should not be described in a way that reduces us to a centerfold.
(8/5/2012 8:32:59 PM)
Very Good Response
Well put, sound response!
(10/28/2012 7:37:55 PM)
What does a 'no' really mean?
I have married off all of my children except for the youngest so far. . I have been offended by a 'no', until......I actually met/saw the potential zivug or the parents with my own eyes. That was more than enough to give me chizuk in Bashert right then and there.
So a 'no' could be that they realize that your child is too good/frum/sincere for their child! Or they think that someone from a divorced family is by definition maladjusted, only to find out that their own daughter's parents divorced AFTER she married. Hashem does run the world, you know. Seeing it really does help believe it.
(10/30/2014 7:15:08 PM)
Archaic system?
The part that I think is archaic is when the parents say yes or no without consulting with their child or they are not on the same page as their child.
The shadchan pushes it because it is their friend, possibly.
I have seen many a time when the parent says yes to a prospect but it is not what their child really is or wants.
It is what the parent WISHES their child would want.
This wastes the prospect's time, money and emotion.
(10/30/2014 7:38:38 PM)
Perspective from a parent
There is more than one shidduch going on in this whole shidduch process. First you need a shadchan who believes in you & can communicate with you--shidduch #1, then you need a shadchan who can communicate with you & you believe in them--#2, then with the other side-#3. then between each parent and child-#4, then between the prospective couple themselves-#5.
What I found that works is show the resume to my child, get their assessment and reasons for accepting or rejecting.
Many times I have had the opportunity to actually see the person whose parents rejected us or whom I have rejected. There may not be anything intrinsically wrong with the prospective name it just wasn't a match. In each case I thanked Hashem for protecting me and giving me the understanding that it was all for the best that there was a rejection no matter from which side. It also helps that I have open communication with my children to understand what they are looking for. There still is the issue of family names to overcome. It' s the person we are looking at, not just the family name. Then you have parents who want something for their child which is not the same as the child wants. Those children may need to go directly to the shadchan to get their needs met. May we see more good shidduchim soon.
(7/27/2015 12:25:12 AM)
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