Shidduch question:
We are parents to a very good bochur who is at shidduch age: a masmid, goes on mivtzoim, has manners and is responsible and clean.
We get many offers and look through them all. Recently we heard about a very nice girl from Crown Heights who, according to her family members and friends, would match our son.
The thing is that her parents said no. Is there anything we can do? How do we go about it? We really want her for him.
Mrs. Sarah Junik’s answer:
First of all let me wish you hatzlacha rabo in your search, may you find his zivug in a “sha’a tova umutzlachas”.
I cannot answer specifically, as I need more details which, I understand, you would be loath to publish in a public forum, but I can address the subject in general.
It helps to know when and how the rejection took place. Depending whether the rejection was at the very first stages of the shidduch, or further along, possibly after a meeting, one would put more or less effort to change the “no” to a “maybe”.
A common possibility is when we have researched a name that sounded promising (a name that was suggested a by various individuals, as mentioned in the letter above) but when our information was presented to the other side, we were told that they said no, the shidduch was not for them.
We should understand that when a shidduch is rejected without a satisfactory reason we feel hurt for the rejection and at a loss for how to fix it. We feel that if only we knew what the objection was, we could explain it away or prevent this from happening again.
What we should feel though is that this was not the right time, or maybe -even though so many people suggested it – this was not the “Bashert” that we were looking for.
If it was the right time or the right person then surely it would have come about.
Hashgacha Protis in shidduchim is blatant. When things have to happen they do. It does not matter if, like in the stories we hear, a neighbor gives bad reports, or a brother keeps rejecting suggestions. When the right one comes, the neighbor will be out of town and the brother unreachable.
That is why many people are happier when a “no” comes from the other side and not from them. They are happy not to take the achrayus of having rejected a potential zivug, and they know that if it is the right one after all, the Aibishter will bring it about at the right time in His own way.
On the other hand the family who is doing the rejecting does not have to give a reason for not following through on a suggestion. Whatever their reason may be, it is their choice to accept or reject a shidduch (hopefully well thought out and not for frivolous reasons).
In the case described in the letter, being that family members seem to be involved, maybe a relative could approach the parents of the girl and call attention to what a good suggestion this really is, how they personally know the boy etc. They could explain all the reasons why these two are a match, i.e. same goals, compatible characters, midos etc. If this does not work, then it is better to look elsewhere. B”H there are a lot of exceptional girls in Lubavitch.
May we hear good news soon from you and from all the other “I” that are looking for an “us.”
There is more than one shidduch going on in this whole shidduch process. First you need a shadchan who believes in you & can communicate with you–shidduch #1, then you need a shadchan who can communicate with you & you believe in them–#2, then with the other side-#3. then between each parent and child-#4, then between the prospective couple themselves-#5. What I found that works is show the resume to my child, get their assessment and reasons for accepting or rejecting. Many times I have had the opportunity to actually see the person whose parents rejected us or whom I… Read more »
The part that I think is archaic is when the parents say yes or no without consulting with their child or they are not on the same page as their child.
The shadchan pushes it because it is their friend, possibly.
I have seen many a time when the parent says yes to a prospect but it is not what their child really is or wants.
It is what the parent WISHES their child would want.
This wastes the prospect’s time, money and emotion.
I have married off all of my children except for the youngest so far. . I have been offended by a ‘no’, until……I actually met/saw the potential zivug or the parents with my own eyes. That was more than enough to give me chizuk in Bashert right then and there. So a ‘no’ could be that they realize that your child is too good/frum/sincere for their child! Or they think that someone from a divorced family is by definition maladjusted, only to find out that their own daughter’s parents divorced AFTER she married. Hashem does run the world, you know.… Read more »
Well put, sound response!
It’s high time that marriage-minded girls and boys took matters into their own hands and started getting to know each other away from all these bigoted, small-minded, nitpicking adults. The only reason shidduchim work out at all is a game of chance. The shadchanim have the few lucky numbers in between so many failures and disasters and mismatches based on superficial qualities, external beauty, money and status. For the record, i find it deplorable to be reading about a girl’s dress size as a way to describe her body type. It is really crass and crude. Women are not dolls… Read more »
I’m from Toronto (not that it matters, and not that I live there anymore B”H), and if I hadn’t been stupid enough to involve my mother, I would have been married eight months sooner, at the very least. As it was, my family was not at the wedding, because of difficulties presented to us by my mother. (And MIL foresaw these, but didn’t warn me, because she didn’t want to shake the relationship between me and my mother.) Parents are not always the best option – sometimes they really don’t care about their children, and sometimes they are just so… Read more »
There is a difference between wearing slippers in the mikvah and wearing slippers TO the mikvah. If you’re not in a bungalow colony,for example, wearing slippers on the way from yeshivah/home to the mikvah is mighty “prust” looking. I cringe whenever I see this and wouldn’t be looking for a son-in-law who sees “nothing wrong with it.” Just my take on the matter…
There are two themes in this discussion I want to comment on. The first is a response to all the negativity toward Shadchanim. There are many different personalities in all fields and this is certainly true about Shadchanim. I’ve worked with some who didn’t seem to care one whit, some who I thought were completely meshugga, and some who really worked to the nth degree for us. And as to the idea of being “rejected” – there can be a really nice person from a really nice family who is suggested to another family. We had someone we thought was… Read more »
Mommy, please be grateful that your grown son goes all by himself to the mikveh. It is a very lofty thing to do and not everybody feels connected to the inyan, and similarly to wearing a hat, davening with a minyan daily, keeping sedarim, staying away from questionable vdeos..the list goes on. Here you have a really frum boy that so many families would be thrilled about. Hold on tight, the best is yet to come. And besides, your son’s kallah will thank her lucky stars thatt her husband is not a slob.
This is amazing! 69 comments!
most guys dont want to do this web cam thing or even talk on the phone b/c they are to chassidsh ………
There is no reason to travel before trying shidduch-vision which is really getting somewhere in Lakewood and other Litvish communities. People can have a webcam date or two before committing to travel. Not all men (nor all women) can take unlimited time off of work and park themselves in a strange city and do nothing all day while the woman works during the day. Many men have had bad experiences associated with traveling for dates and the most men will not continue to do things that they find are uncomfortable; especially when they are getting plenty of dates with girls… Read more »
I bet ur a parent!!!!!!
WHAT EXAMPLE OUT WE GIVING WHEN WE MAKE THE GIRLS DO ALL TEH TRAVELING I KNOW GIRLS WHO GO TO NY 4 EVERY SHIDDUCH . B/C THE BOY REFUSES AND THE ONLY THING THEY ARE TOLD IS THATS TEH WAY IT IS THESE DAYS ..HELLOOO IT SHOULD NOT BE LIKE THIS ITS WRONG A MAN IS OBLIGATED TO GO OUT AND FIND HIMSELF A WIFE STOP PICKING AND CHOSING WHAT YOU WANT TO BELIVE, ITS DEGRADING WHEN A GIRL HAS TO FLY OUT FOR THE 20TH TIME ESPECIALY WHEN THE GUYS FAMILY DONT EVEN PAY TOWARD, WHATS HAPPENING THIS IS… Read more »
BS”D I thing the main issue in the question was: the parents said no, many others said yes. Is it possible that the parents are making a mistake and if so, is it proper to “go around them” and if yes, how. Rebitzin Junik writes that there needs to be more details to answer specifically. I am writing this because it seems from the many posts that some people are not aware of the values of our present shiduch system. (which like our ‘healthcare’ is getting lots of flak for a supposed ‘crisis’ due to the few issues which generate… Read more »
what about when a parent approaches the shadchan and requests that the shadchan approach the parents of a specific girl or boy..and the shadchan feels they are G-ds messenger and tells the parents “I don’t think this shiddach is suitable”…no reason given. A clever parent will then approach another shadchan or tell this shadchan, if this is their shadchan of choice, I am not asking your opinion, I am asking you to call the parents. Too many people think they are G-ds right hand!
To all older girls and boys….it happens to us all in the right time ..in the meantime enjoy living your life make the most of it .every situation has its bright side find it . hashem has given us this time to work on ourself on our midos so when we do get married yih, we can go into it as better ppl hopfully!!!!!!!……….when i do get married yih i dont want to look back regret ing wasting this precious time crying and complaining, instead ill be greatfully that i used every second to the fullest…..hatzlacha to you all….were all… Read more »
Funny you quote the Rebbe here. My family got specific advice from the Rebbe NOT to let the siblings “Mish Zich Arein” in a shidduch. The brothers of a girl were trying to stop a shidduch with a bochur they knew. They were trying to convince their parents and sister that it was not a good idea. They consulted the Rebbe who wrote back (and we still have the letter)- that the siblings should keep out as they are biased toward their sister.
YOU ALL ARE SHADCHANIM AND IS YOUR DUTY TO HELP GIRLS AND BOYS THE SAME WAY YOU HELP ANY OTHER JEW.WE ARE PROUDING OURSELF BEING MEKAREV JEWS BUT WHAT ABOUT YOUR BROTHERS AND SISTERS??
Why can’t married friends spend five minutes a day and think whom they can set their friends up with??? I am 26 and unmarried and haven’t even been set up on even a single date by one friend yet, only by lousy shadchanim. Every time I go out its with someone who a shadchan suggested, and it hasn’t worked, they don’t know whom they’re selling and to whom. I was engaged already once and that was set up by a shadchan as well and that didn’t work, I think mostly because the name was taken out of a hat and… Read more »
The “professional” shadchanim often have fame of not caring, and just trying to sell you second hand “merchandise.” It’s not the same if a good friend, or neighbor calls. The issue is that those good friends say “yes.. I might have someone, but … I dont know if it is right… I’m not a professional.. ” And then the thing dies. If our friends would consider how lazy and uncaring shadchanim are (try calling and getting through to most of them, try to arrange a meeting in person with these snobs, “I would be meeting people all day,” etc), then… Read more »
yes it should and yes it does bother many of us Anash that there are girls and boys past 25! The suggestion that #15 made is a great idea.!! Young couples could be very helpful by remembering their classmates from high school, seminary , yeshivos, shlichus, etc…….and guests….shadchanus gelt is not a bad bonus!!!!
DOES IT BOTHER YOU TO SEE A 25- 26 – 27 YEAR OLD GIRL NOT MARRIED OR YOU LOOK TO THE OTHER SIDE AND SAY IS NOT YOUR BUSNESS??
EVERYTHING MIDA NEGED MIDA EVERYTHING IS SEEN AND NOTICED ABOVE
YES IT SHOULD HURT YOU AND DO SOMTHING ABOUT IT,ITS A WHOLE GENERATION OF KIDS NOT FULFILING THEIR PURPUSE.
The Rebbe concerning a shidduch once said that “the brother knows the boys and the sister the girls” so in shidduchim you need the advice of the family who know you and the boy or girl. We also find this in halacha concerning a “defect” (mumm) the Rambam states if they have a close family member they would have known and this would have been accepted. meaning that the proper procedure is that the prospective shidduch IS checked out by a close family member. On the rejection points to ponder… True you cant judge a book by its cover but… Read more »
choson and kalla is a great mitzva and all of you Yetzer horas that want to stop marriage it is Crazy and you people are all absent minded and wrong why? b/c according to the rambam you have to get married and if you dont you get punished so they have to get married so dont let people but in to your marriageable business
i have a doter that is a real chassideshe girl and i dont let her get married unless i know who he is
I’ve seen one side of parents saying no (without their child even knowing about the offer), and a year or 2 later say yes. Then, after the wedding and 1-2 children later the child who didn’t know says “you said no originally!!… but why??!!”
I guess G-d just wanted it to happen a year or 2 later….
clean boys are good! u can never be too clean so guys keep those flip flops on in mikvah-its hot!;)
girls stop being so difficult and saying no for stupid reasons and guys stop thinking the next girl will be better stop digging for gold and go out!!!! have fun and find ur bashert in a kosher way!
LOL
i totally agree with u. a bunch of short minded ppl there are in this world.
its hysterical to read through all the comments they are so funny !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
i does work both ways with boys and girls… i didn’t mean to only harp on about boys. maybe i did a bit, bc i was once a girl going thru all this, i do have brothers who all went thru shudduchim and they all just seemed to have a much easier time than us girls. i am now married, and just get frustrated when trying to set up friends and trying to deal with the mothers… for many reasons all you young couples out there, DON’T FORGET THAT U WERE ONCE SINGLE , think for a second about a… Read more »
To #35, why is it us MOBs who are always the villains? To me the mothers of girls are always looking for a top boy for their amazing daughters because after her inspiring year at sem, she qualifies for top stuff. These mothers and their daughters turn away many boys sight unseen and then blame the mothers of boys when the girl is still single many years later. They have been taught to be outgoing all their lives at camp and school and quiet boys are not on their radar screen. I don’t blame them for wanting what they want… Read more »
You wrote: “we hear over and over from our children. We don’t get it, we don’t understand, we are from a different generation etc.” I would like to give some advice to any parent who feels that way: GO GET HELP! Many parents feel that way, and they think that this is just the way children are, ALL children feel not understood by their parents! – this is not the case. There are many parents who have proper communications skills and know HOW to validate their children’s feelings in a way that their children feel UNDERSTOOD, and feel like their… Read more »
Not everyone has one end of story.
just because some shidduchim that went w-o parents were successful, i think that shidduchim are supposed to be through parents and all the people posting happy marriages are not proving anything. people can make mistakes, too.
ps: whoever is going on and on about mikveh’s, u are all off topic…. totally missed the point of the article
just because you had a bad experience does not mean it is the same for everyone
not all shidduchim that don’t go through the parents, end badly.
actually i don’t think there is any real number out there that shows that shidduchim that don’t go through the parents end with sholom bayis problems. on the contrary, i kknow of many happy marriages …
i am not saying that every shidduch hasto be without the parents, but i have learned from experience that there are one too many controlling mother out there… and i just think they should give their sons/dauhgters a voice too
30, ur making a big mistake. if a mother send a kid on a date then the kid decide if its good or not. but when it goes straight through him he is a nogeah badavar and cant decide correctly. and yes, 25-30 is not always old enough, bh your parents have more experience in life than you do…
Well, this is the same old retoric we hear over and over from our children. We don’t get it, we don’t understand, we are from a different generation etc. etc. etc. AND THEN, there is a Sholom Bayis problem… who gets the first phone call? US. Who needs to listen, support, help, cry, say tehillim, go to the ohel… US PARENTS. Why is it that we only get it when things are not going right, but if our children are going rogue… we just dont understand?? Children need their parents at any age – especially with Shidduchim/Marriage because the children… Read more »
NO PARENT NEED TO GIVE PERMISION TO GET MARRIED.we are living in a free country, not iran.
unless there is a really legitimate reason why they shouldn;t get married, then the only thing the parents need to do, is give their blessing, not permision. their kid is not two anymore and they should have a lttle faith in their child
and by legitimate, i mean that there is something realy and truelly wrong with the guy… not that the parents don’t like something about his anscesters etc….
my rabbi’s daughter went and married without permission from the parents and he didnt even go to their wedding!!
OK, THAT’S A LITTLE DRASTIC.. it’s really not a big deal to not go through the parents.. it’s been done before with many good outcomes!! in the end it is the boy and girl who are sitting there on the date alone. they should be able to say who they want to go out with. do you know how many times i have tried to set up a shidduch, and i speak to the mother, who says no, and i am almost positive that the guy doesn’t even get the name of the girl from his mother. she just takes… Read more »
either you have a zivug or you don’t< and what about people who go through more than one marriage r"l???? Who was their zivug?
families have been destroyed due to the fact that people think that they are mature enough to make their own decision!!!
The general rule is that everyone has a zivug. However not necessarily does everyone have one.
YOU ARE PERFECTLY RIGHT
i say skip the parents, and go directly to the source ie: boy/girl)
you get things done much faster that way. going through parents is just a pian in the neck.
i the girl or guy is old and mature enough to get married, then i think he or she is also old enough to make his/her own to decision wheather to go out with someone…
what is up with 25-30 yr old guys who are still going throhg their mommys for shiduchim!!!>??? it’s time to cut the umbilicall cord and start making your own decisions!!!!
You can email Mrs. Junik at [email protected] and ask your question I think she great and has lots of wisdom and experience in this field.
Specify in you email to her if you want it to be in a public forum, if yes then when she answer’s your question you can email the question and answer to Collive.
Thanks so much to Collive for posting such Op-Ed’s and bringing these vital issues to everyone’s attention.
A groisen Yasher Koiach!!!
Do you want you son to have toe fungus or athlete’s foot? What’s wrong with you?! Being connected to G-d, Torah, the Rebbe, and so on has nothing to do with being dirty or ill… On the contrary, the poskim say that it’s forbidden for a Talmid Chochom (or ben Torah) to walk around with dirty, stained, or ripped clothing.
All I can say is that thank G-d you’re not my mother…
i second ur story #14 and to #17 i only went out with him about a year after the first person suggested the shidduch.
how would i ask her? email address?
and in every scenario there is always the other side- what if its a boy that has said no many many times? you try again. thats it!
Try a different shliach. Sometimes the messenger isn’t the right key to the lock. Investigate who has influence with the girl/her parents, have them present your case. She just might reconsider at the right moment, or after another choice bochur falls through. Hatzlocha!
Shampoo? soap? feh! That’s the problem. Tell your son not to take a shower for a few months and the phone wont stop ringing!
correction to # 16
So if you hear a no maybe IT IS the girl who said no and NOT the mother or father or somebody else.
It’s not the kedusha of the mikveh that they don’t appreciate otherwise why would they be going to begin with??? But it’s till they get into the mikveh itself! Why does chasidish have to mean being smelly or have infected feet? I don’t get it!
There are much worse things we have to deal with in our world of choshech kaful umchupal.
Some of the reasons for rejecting a potential spouse are insane. I think # 16’s is near the top of the list…she didn’t like his first name. WOW! I am stunned! I feel sorry for #16 in having such a difficult daughter. Obviously, they are frustrated by this narishkeit too.
And then we wonder why there is a shidduch crisis!
If someone gives “no” as their answer, why do they HAVE to give a reason?? So the other side can get all defensive and start to justify, or deny, and try to convince you that noooo, he’s not really like that, and really they ARE perfect for each other?? Sorry, but if they looked into the name and decided “No”, not for us, then move on.
Men’s mikvaos are not so clean all the time
I think the real question here should be: if you get a “no” should you try again – other shadchanim or friends?
I heard stories that prove persistence does help or is it just annoying?
We are from crown heights and have a daughter that a particular name came up several times (our family is real Gesza and our daughter is an A in everything) the boy is from a BT family but a very good bochur. We wanted the shiduch but our daughter did not like the first name of the bochur and we culd not convince her to meet the boucher. The other family felt bad and sent somebody again and again. So if you hear a no maybe IT IS the girl who said no and the mother or father or somebody… Read more »
Here is a GREAT idea !!!!!
Why not have the young couples think of their single friends and work on shidduchim for them !!. They would be doing a toiva and making shadchanis gelt !!
B’h
My parents said no too, but I cajoled them into atleast letting me try it. Since they had only one issue with his backgorund that they were not happy about. I told them i am old enough to get married, perhaps I am old enough too to decide if that particular issue is a deciding factor.
Well B’h though he wasn’t my first, he was my last and that is history.
So I say pursue it!!!!!!!!!!!!
I remember the days when you could just use the soap that was sitting on the shelf in the mikva! Today?!! Chas vsholom , you need a new bar of soap and a shower every day!?
IS GREAT TO SEE PEOPLE GET MORE INVOLVED!!
can i have him? im into clean
It starts off with slippers in the Mikvah and then it ends up with daring to bring shampoo… What is the world coming to?
Rejection is G-d’s Protection!!!
The boys are always the villains and the girls are always the victims, right? I wish I had a dime for every girl who played games, said “no” for dumb reasons, didn’t get back with an answer after a date, dumped boys after weeks of dating…
After awhile I stopped feeling sorry for girls who were older and not married. Many times they had chances and turned them down so I don’t feel sorry for them. Not all boys and their mothers are as picky as they are made out to be.
contact the girl directly if possible
so many times the parents wish to get married again and search for everything they didn’t get in their own spouses
as a mother of boys and girls b”h ,if some one says no
we don`t take it to heat and say NEXT…….
Its good to know that you think its always the Boys saying no. I as a Boy had lots of No’s in the past while and NOT from a boy ;-). The way I take it is, if they said No then its obvious not the right one and Thank you hashem for saving my time and Money (i would have spent going out with her) instead now i’m 1 closer to the real Bashert may I find her Sooner then Later 😉
Clean? What exactly does clean mean? Is that a euphemism for “chassidish but worldly”? Maybe your son is too clean, did you think of that? The biggest problem amongst bochurim is their addiction to cleanliness, maybe that can finally be addressed in this very appropriate forum.
My son, for example, wears slippers in the mikva. Slippers in the mikva I say! How are we supposed to have a generation of yungerlite who don’t appreciate the kedusha of mikva and feel the need to wear slippers when there.
Thank you, Ad Mosai, Ad Mosai, Ad Mosai!!!.
I think we should do this more often!
For it is really helping people who have children, friends, and relatives who are in need of shidduchim. Especially this one which focuses on a very important issue that many people have never approached before.
I would like a give a big Yasher Koach to COLLIVE for producing such helpful articles on this topic.
You should be blessed with everyone you may need in physical and spiritual things.
Thank you Mrs Junik for explaining this situation so well. As a shadchan, I recognized the situations that came up many times in suggestions I was involved in, but the part I identify most with is where you say ‘Hashgacha Protis in shiduchim is blatant’ I have seen it many times B’H As in general with the inyan of hashgocho protis, we don’t just sit idly and wait for the brochos to fall into our laps, but once we have done our hishtadlus, we have to recognize with humility Who the Brochos come from and that a ‘no’ is an… Read more »
Its really surprising, because its ALWAYS ALWAYS the ”boys parents” that reject the offer, NOT the girls, because the boys have “soooooooooooooooo many to choose from”. . and I know that many many agree with me. . If a boy hears of a girl that who be even just ONE year older than him (C”V) the family won’t even LOOK into the suggestion , no matter how good the match may be. . . Do you have ANY idea, how many Shidduchim would take place, if only the boys agreed to meet the girl even if she is slightly younger… Read more »