Nov 22, 2009
Not Another Broken Heart

Shidduchim SOS: From a Chassidishe bochur wanting Shlichus, my husband turned into an unemployed man touching his beard and drinking in bars. Mrs. Sarah Junik, how do I avoid making a mistake again?

Dear Mrs. Junik,

I have something that is bothering me very much and is something on my mind that I would like to share with you and get your input about.

I was married in the past for quite a while, and now I am divorced. I know everything is Hashgacha Protis, and I know that I have a very bright future ahead of me, but I would like to pour out my heart to you on some of the experiences that I went through, and to get some perspective on how to make sure that such a thing will not happen again ch"v.

This is my story in short:

When we dated, I thought of him as a chassidishe guy who was into the right things and was a guy who wanted to go on shlichus - he displayed a very big passion and will for it.

But as time went on, he really had no interest in going on shlichus. And to work wasn't an option either, so I had to work my tail off, while he was home watching youtube clips and other things.

No matter how much effort I put into the relationship - I came home with a paycheck, really cared for him, cooked and all - I didn't feel the "Kamayim haponim el ponim."

My husband always used to put me down. He was constantly on the phone with his friends and his parents - and as time went on we grew further and further apart.

His mother was very much a part of our marriage in a negative way; always had to have input and a say in everything about our lives.

Soon enough he started touching his beard, and watching movies, and hanging out with friends in places that were not appropriate, (i.e. bars, that I thought were not something a yungerman should be doing.)

So really, what I thought I got in a husband I didn't have. I didn't feel that he was proud of me when we walked down the street together, he didn't respect my upbringing or anything about my family's minhogim etc. Basically we had a very different value system.

But I went along with all of this, I tried to stay positive and do whatever I needed to do as a wife. All I got in return was criticism and comments how I wasn't good enough for him and that I was too controlling - when in reality it was the opposite.

When we both realized that things were not good in our relationship, we went to therapy after much discussion and deliberation (with the advice of our individual mashpiim). However, that didn't help.

I think the core of the problem was that we each had a different understanding and ideology as to what marriage is, and how it should be viewed.

So, the answer was clear that it was time for each of us to move on with our lives, unfortunately in different drections and that hopefully one day each of us will meet our real bashert.

Please give me your thoughts on how to avoid making such a mistake again in the future.

Mrs. Sarah Junik's Answer:

Dear ......,

I am very sorry about the turn your life has taken. I am sure you know all the bumps in our life are there to help us grow and strive to reach higher.

I cannot address your particular case because it would not be correct to judge without all the facts from both sides, but I will address a point you made which is very valid: how can a girl avoid being deceived by the true nature of the boy she is shidduch dating.

It is an unfortunate fact that young men who have serious flaws, know very well that they must hide them when they are in the dating process and show only an idealized fake version of themselves. (I say young men because that is what your letter addresses, but it happens with young women too).

I have never understood why a person would go into marriage having given a totally false impression. It is like someone buying a suit 3 sizes too small. What use is the suit? It can't be worn!

As you say in your letter "....therapy … didn't help because the very core of our marriage had not just been damaged but it didn't have a foundation whatsoever." You thought you were marrying someone with completely different values that would match yours. A person that you could help in his growth while he would encourage you in yours, which was not possible, as his values and yours were diametrically opposed.

Some people go into marriage hoping it is a magic wand that will cure all their problems. That is not so. As Rabbi Avraham Twersky writes in his books, marriage is not a hospital; problems should be resolved before marriage.

Before I mention some practical advice to discern character and try to avoid such pitfalls, let me remind you and anyone else that sometimes this too is beshert. It does not say anywhere that marriage must be happy. Nowhere are we told that out Besherte will be the "man/woman of our dreams".

Sometimes a person has to go through a less than positive experience because that is what is "Beshert". As we have just learned in Parshas Toldos, Hashem gives us Nisyonos and it is up to us to get through them. We do not know the Aibishter's Cheshbon. People go through a lot of tragedies in their lives; they learn, get chizuk and continue on. No one said life has to be "fair".

That said, I believe that today's society subscribes too much to making things easy, putting as little effort into our endeavors as possible. This affects all areas of our lives. If something does not work as we want it to we throw it away. If something is too hard, do something else. We are tremendously influenced by this worldly ethic that is not the Torah way.

What this means in this case is that when people do research for shidduchim, they do not put the effort necessary to make a proper research.

(I know that there are obsessive families that have to speak to the first grade Rebbi or Morah to be satisfied, and that is not what I am addressing.)

Within the norm, one should call friends and friends of friends to get a feel of the girl or boy's character. One should also call the boy or girl's references. Write down the information, listen carefully when you are on the phone. Listen for hesitations, for bland, un-descriptive adjectives such as "nice" "good" "interesting" etc. If a question is not answered ask again in a different way, and always remember to define where you are coming from. What for one person is an intellectual may be a barely literate for another.

I have written at length on the type of questions to ask in my blog, so I will not repeat myself. The important thing is to ask the questions, and when in doubt ask some more and if still in doubt ask a Rov or a Mashpia. Do not gloss over something that does not sound right just because we are so anxious for it to work out.

When going out on a shidduch date, a person can put on a face but it is hard to maintain it, time after time. There will be some discrepancies between what s/he says and s/he does. Keep an eye out, and ear out. It does not do to become paranoid but do not be blinded either. Discuss your experience with a Mashpia, let someone who is not directly involved give an unbiased opinion.

And even after all these precautions, it may happen that one is taken in. To minimize this, daven constantly to be shown the right person for you. Be specific and clear in your description. Ask for Siata D'Shmaya, ask for the person who you can build a Bais Neemon. Daven before Lichtzen, say tehilim, give Tzedokah especially for Chossen and Kallah organizations and learn the Rebbe's sforim on shidduchim and marriage - Eternal Joy in English for example.

May you have much mazel in the future,

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Opinions and Comments
Expert??!! l think not
"Before I mention some practical advice to discern character and try to avoid such pitfalls, let me remind you and anyone else that sometimes this too is beshert. It does not say anywhere that marriage must be happy. Nowhere are we told that out Besherte will be the "man/woman of our dreams".

So in other words you are saying that a person should stay in an abusive marriage whether physical or mental because that is their "Bashert". With the utmost respect i would challenge Mrs. Junik to please find me a source for such a ludicrous statement. "Nisyones" don't mean that a person should remain in the pain, they demand that we escape the pain and learn and gain strength from being able to overcome the pain!!
(11/23/2009 9:43:49 AM)
would you kindly post the questions list on this site. Thank you for your tremendous help
(11/23/2009 9:45:34 AM)
we dont need
we dont need to hear you anonymously start complaining about your personal marrige thats not my business
(11/23/2009 9:50:05 AM)
to # 3
Well no one asked you to read it, it is perfectly justified for this girl to pose the questions that are bothering her to ensure that she doesnt make the same mistake again.
What is wrong with that?
(11/23/2009 10:11:49 AM)
#1 totally agree
What kind of "nisyonos"are you refering to?Marraige should be about enjoying each others company even if you dont have the same interests.I think the part of the problemn lies in the fact most men/woman dont understand the whole "men r from mars,woman are from venus"concept.
(11/23/2009 10:22:56 AM)
to #3
everything one sees and hears should teach one something,
take a lesson, and i'm sure many readers may benefit from it.
(11/23/2009 10:24:01 AM)
whats the blog?
what questions?
(11/23/2009 10:30:06 AM)
To 1
I think your a bit harsh. She did not say to stay with major problems. No marriage is perfect. Obviously divorce was made by G-d for a reason.
(11/23/2009 10:41:11 AM)
very nice
(11/23/2009 10:47:15 AM)
very nice
i really like this article, out of all the other articles this one is actually sheds light,
it is so important what you mentioned above to do a thorough research, try to detect any hesitations, ....
moshiach now
(11/23/2009 10:49:43 AM)
to number 1
That's not what Rebbetzin Junik meant. I think that she meant that bad marriages, like all unfortunate events in lfe, happen, and there happening is the will of God, Hashgacha Pratis.

When a bad marriage is referred to as beshert, it means that it is this person's lot in life deal with this situation in the best possible way for them, whether through therapy or divorce.

Mrs. Junik is merely saying marriages take work, and some people expect everything to be perfect. A healthy marriage isn't neccessarily one where husband and wife agree on everything and never fight.

So to conclude, number 1, I think that Mrs. Junik is saying that a. marriage takes hard work
and b. everything happens for a reason
(11/23/2009 10:52:23 AM)
what the "expert" missed
I don't know the qualifications of this "expert" but the blatant mistake was in allowing to go on for so long without seeking professional help and only waiting until the damage was "too far gone" to look for help and by that time both of you were hurt beyond repair

there is so much more to say, maybe I will get to this later once the kids are asleep
(11/23/2009 10:54:58 AM)
on the names of all crown heighters.....
we don't want to hear stories and stories
we want tachlis, names of boys and girls to
move on.... so ... who is in crown heights as a active shadchan without cash in advance!!!
very upset NO ONE CARES ....
(11/23/2009 11:17:38 AM)
there is no "bashert" to suffer in a marriage
people get killed and we have to accept it but no one is "bashert" to suffer in a marriage

as well, it usually takes two to tangle... and very seldom can we put all the blame on the other person regardless of how much we love ourselves
(11/23/2009 11:37:39 AM)
Love to see lots of engagements posted!
One of the writers mentioned the importance of seeking a mashpia's advice. Please be careful of whom you choose as a mashpia. I am aware of a family where the daughter is still single at 27 because the mashpia has nixed every shidduch proposed to her claiming that they are not worthy of such a fantastic girl. I hope the mashpia does not do the same to her own children---If one is acting as a mashpia, she must be very careful not to destroy someone's mazel.
(11/23/2009 11:57:06 AM)
the blog
she writes: I have written at length on the type of questions to ask in my blog

Can someone please post a link? Thx
(11/23/2009 12:01:08 PM)
(11/23/2009 12:50:26 PM)
response to #13
you write: "so ... who is in crown heights as a active shadchan without cash in advance!!! "
Why is a shadchan not entitled to request cahs in advance? Assuming we are talking about a relatively nominal sum ($150-250), why not request this of someone who we are asking to put hours into our concerns without any ability to ensure success. if we are talking about a shadchan (not a neighbor or friend) they are involved with many, bochrim and young ladies (pet peeve, when saying 'boys and girls' it sounds like we are refering to 10 year olds. if tehy are old enough to get married, to vote, to drive, to drink, they are not boys and girls. Even worse is when you write 'bochrim and girls' - how demeanig!), spending many hours each week. who is supposed to reimburse them for their time? And then we complain that there are no 'active shadchanim' giving shidduchim enough attetion that it deserves. and no, i am not a shadchan, norrelated to any shadchan.
(11/23/2009 12:58:13 PM)
To number 1
You are obviously young and don't have much experience with marriage. Since, any person will tell you marriage in itself is a Nisoyon. It is a daily struggle to have 2 entity's who till now spent there lives apart now have to live together as one. The fact that in some cases the Nisoyon takes on a different look, one of physical or emotional abuse does not change the fact when this person married the individual it was bashert for them. It also doesn't change the fact that as it brings down in Gemara a story of a Talmid Chochom who's wife treated him like he was less worthy then the dirt of her shoes. His reply that he happily endures Heck on earth in order to receive Olam Habaa. Should come to show that every aspect both good and bad in our marriage is for the better. Even if it does have to end in divorce this to is Hashgacha Proties.

Here is Mrs' Junik's blog
(11/23/2009 1:17:16 PM)
In response
I once heard from a very clever woman- up until the day you get married, it's not hashgacha pratis- it's your responsibilty to make sure that this is te right person for you. Once you are married, it's already hashgacha pratis that this is the situation you're in and you have to do everything possible to make your marriage work. ( obviously if someone is abusive or something extreme that's a different story .
(11/23/2009 1:18:10 PM)
I do not know what bars mean does it mean in jail or does it mean a bar like from a wedding
(11/23/2009 1:45:24 PM)
"And even after all these precautions, it may happen that one is taken in. To minimize this, daven constantly to be shown the right person for you. Be specific and clear in your description. Ask for Siata D'Shmaya, ask for the person who you can build a Bais Neemon."

the key is not just to daven, but to have bitochon that Hashem will make it work in a good and revealed way.

According to the Rebee in Likkutei Sichos Vol 31, Parshas Shemos, Bitochon means to have trust that it will be good in a revealed way. Through this, it will be good even if min hashomayim it wasn' supposed to be.
(11/23/2009 2:19:53 PM)
old advice
i once heard of some advice from an old person many many years ago. i am not sure if this advice applies to our times or now days perhaps its just not the done thing or fashionable but il share it with you ....... the advice was as follows

"tell the truth"

wowowow amazing. a boy should tell the truth about himself and the girl should as well. if the girls truth is that she wants to go on shlichus and the boys truth is that he wants to stay in bars well then end of story. so much suffering can be avoided by this old peice of advice .... tell the truth. be honest. if you are not mature enough or in touch with your inner deep self enough to do these 2 things be honest and tell truth then you SHOULD NOT BE DATING OR SEEKING A MATCH FOR LIFE . you have much more work to do no mater what mommy says (tell your parents the tructh as well ... this also may help in finding you a compatible match)

i think the torah says something about this somewhere and i think chasidus mentions it in passing .... but am not sure because its not a minhag that anyone keeps anymore

(11/23/2009 2:21:06 PM)
chassidishe ungelite and Not Malochim,
I know nothing of this couple that got divorced, but I want to mention that girls are generally more religious than even the more chassidishe boys, on some levels. The guys are superficially dressed and they go to minyanim and they learn, but there are some parts about guys that are not Malochim, like these girls expect. Know that in some ways all men are alike and have certain expectations, which could cause other troubles.
(11/23/2009 2:23:53 PM)
How is it possible to get accurate info???
You either come accross those that say only wonderful things and then those that give negative comments they don't know him/her well enough or ???
(11/23/2009 2:28:45 PM)
There is no such thing as "general advice"
Just wondering, maybe that guy DID want to go on shlichus, and then just bailed? Maybe he has a lot to say in his defense? IMHO, without knowing the other side of the story even such general advice as "better research" could be misplaced. Maybe this lady WAS very thorough with her research. Maybe she just needed a little help to handle her marriage? Can't really say without knowing..
(11/23/2009 2:32:29 PM)
Life Coach for Singles
Sorry, it was inappropriate in this case to take about bashert in a bad marriage and that some young people today aren't ready to work on a relationship. That's not what this young woman stated. She tried everything, went for marital counseling, spoke to her mashpa...She's a world removed to young people who cannot or will not do everything possible to save a salvageable marriage.
It is not bashert to be miserable. What is helpful advice is that every situation we find ourselves in, even if it turns out bad, after the fact, we can use that bad experience to build on for a better life.
Don't settle for unhappiness. Why should anyone? And do try everything to save a marriage. But if after all that, know that you can have a better marriage and life by learning from the past.
Hatzlachah. Remember, Ivdu es Hashem b'simchah applies to every situation.
(11/23/2009 2:38:40 PM)
From the author
I am very dissappointed in some of the remarks here.
I dont understand you people, this marriage was not solvable, there was nothing to work with, we're talking here about a sick person who was in it only for himself, was not ready to give himself over and to work as a team, all he wanted was that I should serve him and I should do this and I have to change this and I have to change that, in meanwile he had no interest in being there for me. He wanted to bring me down and thought that he could treat me like trash for the next 60-100 years. I just say Thank G-d every day that Im not living with this person anymore.
He has serious psychological issues and maye Hashem help him because he really needs it, nebach.
(11/23/2009 2:51:10 PM)
to 24
gross generalisations! bigoted to say the least. you obviously seem to hang around the same sort of men. break free.... perhaps?
(11/23/2009 3:30:40 PM)
a parent can ask a mashpia or 10 brilliant people but its important not to disregard one's own gut feeling. You the parent know YOUR own kid better than themashpia. NEVER BELIEVE THAT THE MASHPIA KNOWS YOUR CHILD BETTER-take what they say but in the end TRUST YOUR OWN FEELINGS OR YOU COULD END UP IN MY SITUATION!-BE FOREWARNED
(11/23/2009 3:33:08 PM)
Let me tell you people, everyone has an agenda. The friends have an agenda to keep their friend with a good reputation. The prospective boy or girl or their parents hiding the issues is the biggest problem. If you have issues come out of the closet and be open before u get married. Save yourself and your future spouse heartache..
If you have emotional issues or insecurities or were abused or is an abuser state those things before u get engaged, its not right to the person youre marrying to have to deal with a full set of issues which he/she is not ready to deal with. If you're selfish and youre in it only for yourself and want your spouse to take care of you and youre not ready to give then u dont belong on the dating scene and you should have no bussiness going 2 get married. Just because your whole class got married doesn't necessarilly mean youre ready for it!!!!
If you have issues take care of it becasue your'e not helping anybody by sweeping the issues under the rug, at the end you'll probably end up divorced and in a much worse situation then. So boys and girls I beg of you, be open and dont hide things not for yourself or your children, and friends and mashpiim and refferences speak up, youre not helping anybody by keeping quiet.
(11/23/2009 4:12:35 PM)
Feeling your pain
Dear Author,
I feel your pain, and am crying while typeing this. Beceause I too, am a victim of such a marriage,and from a ambitous young Kallah I turned into a young dicorced girl. My story is not exactly the same like yours, but we do share the fact, that the boy hid his true colors,and only when married could I detect that something was terribly wrong. In my sad story, it was the parents who hid severe medical issues.
Dear Readers, Please, noone should EVER do such a thing to an innocent, young girl! She is not a hospital or therapist that can heal your son wih magic! What you couldn't have done as a parent all these years, she will not be able to fix herseilf. How can you inflict such pain and suffering on someone so comletely innocent? And then when she finally decides to leave him, , you start making up stories on her, when deep down you know the truth. You just need to protect yourself. So why did you do this altogether?Please, I beg of all future mother in laws: If your child has a problem in any way, dont make his poor kallah suffer! Rather take somone of equal value to him ,so at least noone is being hurt!
And when you hear of a fresh divorce, dont jump to conclusions. You might never know the real reason, beceaese in my case, even his own married siblings dont know the real truth. Sometime the issue cant even be spoken about. Sometimes you just dont talk at atll. But gossip is the worst thing, I can say that the hardest part of my divorce was hearing what lies people spoke. I was the one who made through the pain and suffering, and then you just talk what you imagine?
Anyways, I did go way off topic, but I guess it was my pain that spoke out for me. If I only helped one person by posting this, then it was worth it!
A message to the original author: I understand how you fell and I am glad you got out of it . Hashem should help you shoud speedily find your Bashert and you should be sooooo happy, that you should say, "Well, to get to fhis, everything was worth it!"

(11/23/2009 4:28:51 PM)
like attracts like
if you dig usually like attracts like
imposter attracts imposter
funny.....if they would take off their masks, they would probably really like each other
but while they are attached to their masks (denial)
they cant stand each other
life is interesting aint it !
(11/23/2009 4:47:30 PM)
I don't own a computer, I am at a friend's house....
She said he's "youtubing" all she willing to give up her internet. That may not be the basis of the problem but it is a serious concern. How much is SHE on the computer? Get RID of it!
(11/23/2009 6:35:00 PM)
this is funny
I'm sitting here laughing that when articles of the like show up, its waaaayyy more interesting to read the comments.

It's kinda a sad-funny, every time, no matter what, the comments are soooo negative and each commentator tries to outdo the last commentator on negativaty.

Enough! Hamaseh hu ha-ikor! yes, articles will not help ppl get married, but y should that bother YOU?? I'm sure there are lots of singles with questions, very similar questions mind you and although there is no one answer and each person and story is unique, the questions are being answered to the best of abilities. perhaps it will encourage someone with similar thoughts, stories/situations to look further into it and find the correct answer for him/her.
(11/23/2009 6:51:49 PM)
I'm so sorry
I'm so sorry you had to suffer through that. May you and all those who have experienced similar be blessed with ease in finding your true lifelong partner, one who will gladden your heart every day.
(11/23/2009 7:08:35 PM)
IT'S ALL ABOUT HOW bochrim are obssed with weight, and we are abusive, watch movies, youtube etc.

Guys are horrible and girls are just so good!

This is all major ----.

Do you know how PICKY the mothers of these girls are? The worry about the smallest and most insgnificant details and try to impress their neighbors. In the process their daugthers get older.

My advice, girls, take matters into your own hands, dont' let your mommy do it all by herself.

Not convinced? How protective is your Jewish mother when you get a little cut? Now how about when we are dealing with the rest of your life and the possiblity of chas've shalom ending up with a really low life like this article so colorfully describes?

So again, take matters into your own hands...
And some parents are completely delusional... think they are a respected family, when everyone knows the father is as honest as lovon and the mother a snob.

Oh wait, I forgot it's the bochrim, 'cus of the weight thing... yeah.. bochrim's fault, oh, and movies! Yes that's it.
(11/23/2009 7:52:37 PM)
to # 33
Your comments are SO off base.
(11/23/2009 11:27:03 PM)
And what''s his side of the story?
Pontificating to a sufferer of a failed marriage is hardly the way to give reassurance. Marriage is supposed to be based on mutual, and I repeat, mutual, respect, love and tolerance.
I am all for premarital sessions with the Chosson and Kalloh by a competent counsellor.
Just like it is important and vital for each to learn the halochois pertaining to family purity, so too is it important to guide them in matters of the heart.
Young couples enter marriage with peconceived ideas which are bound to create problems soon after the knot is tied.
Bashert means that they are destined to live happily together, and not to necessarily suffer from abuse of any kind.
Divorce is a necessary institution to save people from marital hell. But is should b a last resort. Marriage should be worked on by both parties, and neither should ever feel that going to counselling as a sign of failure.
(11/23/2009 11:28:40 PM)
To Mrs. Junik
You write "It does not say anywhere that marriage must be happy."

I disagree: Marriage must be happy. If it is not, it's time to shape it up or leave CH"V.

Without happiness it is not worth it.
(11/24/2009 1:34:23 AM)
I'm surprised
I'm surprised tha Mrs Junik is attributing this kind of mistake to lack of research. Like her, I will not make a conclusion without the facts but there are two things clear to me:

1) Our system does not encourage diversity. If the singles you are dating are considered the norm then you are dating only people that want to go on shlichus etc. HOWEVER it might not be what they really want rather they really just want to be good people who fit in their society and that's not easy if your not wanting Shlichus (trust me I was like that). We are tought the what you want for yourself is bad (hikafia) and you should do what you must do....

2) There seems to be a school of thought that likes to pressure young singles to just go ahead (if thing are ok) and things will work out, a kind of naivite. It doesn't sound like this guy never watched movies or drank beer before he dated it sounds like he didn't feel like it was an option to disclose those innocent hobbies of his before because it's "unheard of".

3) About the "wanting Shlichus but ending up unemployed"...sounds like a bon-afide system graduate to me. This guy should have had other options as should our children.

We can't change the past, let's change the future.
(11/24/2009 1:34:30 AM)
sicha correction
the sicha about bitachon is in cheilek lamad vov sicha aleph.
(11/24/2009 5:22:53 AM)
A sad friend
I know a story simillar to this, but the other way around, where the girl and her family were hiding certain issues which only came out after the couple was married.
They both suffered trying to resurrect the relationship and fix the issues, which they couldn't bacsuse the girl had serious issues which was not reconcilable, to top it all off the couple thought that therapy would help, but let me tell you all something that therapy does not help, it only makes things worse trust me, ive seen this time and time again and if you dont believe me speak to some real experts in the marital counselling field and they will tell you that therapy is not the way to go.
(11/24/2009 8:07:52 AM)
sensitivity, please.
i dont understand why anyone would feel the need to respond to someones obvious pain by trying to put down the victim. this article should evoke sympathy, unless commentors are selfish characters like the husband here. the author deserves credit for putting up with this, for as long as she did, and for wisely separating from him. may women in these situations follow and protect themselves.
(11/24/2009 8:35:29 AM)
to # 44
Who's putting down the victim here?
(11/24/2009 8:46:49 AM)
to #34
"She said he's "youtubing" all she willing to give up her internet. That may not be the basis of the problem but it is a serious concern. How much is SHE on the computer? Get RID of it! "
The issue was not the youtubing all day, that was a symptom of the bigger problem, Dont you people get it??? This guy was really not well psychologicaly or emotionally, he wasn't a healthy human being and may g-d have rachmanus on him and fix him up so iyh his next marriage will be healthier, but i was not able to deal with the issues of self preservation and controlling and wanting to make me irrelivant, which is what he wanted.
My will and goals in life and my desires weren't given a chance to come out and didn't fit with his, and the point here is not to bash the other party, rather to explain to people that if someone is self centered and only cares about what they want and their spouses desires and wants are not considered and taken seriously then that relationship has no hope and therapy will not help in that case either.
(11/24/2009 9:36:01 AM)
it seems from the issues mentioned in the letter, that what R"L broke up that relationship was a serious void in yiras shomayim among other factors.
One only needs to look at the "Kingston Ave. Parade" on a daily basis to see women, men, girls, bochurim who are displaying a very degrading illustration of "yiras shomayim & tznius" in general.
(ie-shaven beards, long {very, very} long hair, short skirts {way above the knees}, smoking, walking {in public} without any foot-coverings, barely covered hair, tight skirts & dresses, plunging necklines)
When you do not have a frum perspective of yiddishkeit, and a warped sense of self-worth - based on the goyishe-world mentality - then you have the perfect recipe for R"L disaster both spiritually and materially.
(11/24/2009 2:11:33 PM)
my take on the system
I think that the reason that this guy thought that he wanted to go on shlichus is because that the only thing is what he was taught to do and given the option and direction . the yeshiva system is to blame
(11/24/2009 3:36:22 PM)
I heard from Rabbi Francis that...
Rashi in Mesechta Sota clearly says that the first match is the main one preordained by G-d. The second is a difficult fix.
If you should ask why is there problems with first time marriages? The Tosfos point out that when G-d makes a fetus he proclaims on it wheather it will be strong rich or poor etc but He does not say if it will be a TZADIK OR RASHA as we know from Tanya.
Therefore, when a first time match does not work out it means that during the persons lifetime till marriage they or their spouse may have diminished or increased their fear or love of Hashem, thereby causing an imbalance between the couple. In heaven this is not considered due the aforementioned fact that G-d does not forecast a persons love or fear of him. In Heaven without deeds they are equal, but after many years on earth a couple may not be equal, yet they are the true preordained Zivug by Hashem.
One may divorce either Zivug (chas veshalom) but this does not prove of disprove anything aforementioned.
(11/24/2009 4:26:29 PM)
To 47
It's not called an observation it's called (in Yiddish) a boich svoreh...aka based on your own ideas..

I bet if you surveyed all the couples that dress/act/beleive as you describe and all the couples that dress/act/beleive as you think they should you'll find that those that are not like you have better or at least equally happy marriages.

It's those little things called facts that many choose not to factor into their opinions....
(11/24/2009 4:59:35 PM)
Mashpiya is not the rebbe or the Aibishter
I know one girl went into a marrige against her parents wishes.
Only because of the Mashpiya's advice.
Soometimes mashpiyim are not objective.
Somebody should not go against their parent's advice unless they ask 3 Yedidim Mevinim as the Rebbe clearly said.
(11/24/2009 7:48:22 PM)
I disagree
Trust me,,, I never have and never will go to a shdchan/it

I am very capable mentally, physically, spiritually, emotionally etc..

Look, here's my advice.. picture where YOU want to be.. then poll the other half and see where THEY want to be / see themselves.. then look at their actions..

My story is one of blessing's... I look at my life and judaism as one of growth.. and you know sometimes you get stalled..

Mrs Junik in quoting Rabbi Twersky hits on a very important aspect, people have for years been telling me to get married.. and despite my longing to build a warm loving home.. I reply that I am not ready.. they tell me that "you never will be ready"

I think people need to figure out their avoda in life before running to get married..

First be honest with yourself (is the oft repeated line by my very wise mother)... ask yourself what you want from life..

All too often I see very "chasidish" people who are consumed with buying nice things.. ma lehalan?

Heres a question i'd ask.. "would s/he get up in the middle of the night, travel across the city to help a friend or fellow jew in distress?"

If the answer is "yes, they'd wash netilat yadayim, jump out of bed.. and go to yehupitzvile at 3am to help a friend / jew"

I was in the subway at 9pm, I went to check my metro card balance.. I bumped into my best friend, whom 1 hour earlier told me he was drained from work and was heading to bed.. so where's he going at 9pm? to bail a jew out of jail.. a jew he didnt really know.. and I said "i'll come with"

Yes its not on most people's list of realistic expectations.. but the chesed, the caring, the love, the devotion that one can show to a fellow yid.. is a clear example (and yes said friend is bh married with kids)

And as a mashal, I quote ruchama shain in "all for the boss" she describes dating a guy 50? years ago and how he kicked a cat in the curb and she knew he wasent for him..

Look, forget his breath.. it takes 2 minutes to eliminate bad breath and 2 seconds to get it..

Forget how her hair looks.. bad hair days are part of life

The cloths and all are chitzoniyus.. look at the person inside..

And if you rather a guy / girl that looks and dresses like a model.. and you care not for the toichen.. then you are on the road to disaster.

(11/24/2009 7:55:54 PM)
(11/25/2009 3:15:51 AM)
Chatzlacha in marriage
You need BITUL expect nothing give everything than are no problems
(11/25/2009 3:18:56 AM)
to 50
Excuse me, but...ich hub dir ungerir't an eiver?! (not literally, of course,) are you of those who choose to emulate a purely goyishe lifestyle - that you must "dismiss" a - lieder (uch un vei) BOICH VEITIG that is plaging Lubavitch presently?
I hate to brake the news to you, but just ask ANYONE NOT IN Crown Heights, and they will tell you about a "tznius/yiras shomayim/frumkeit problem" in "lubavitch" today.
These are real issues - that no matter how "uncomfortable" they make us look, and the "shanda factor" they carry with them - must be at the very top of all of our "agendas", if we are really wanting to IY"H change the shidduchim situation for the better.
Yidden are connected to Hashem through the holy Torah and it's mitzvos. If this connection is R"L weak or broken, then even their own individual "connections" have no hope of success.
Contrary to popular belief - ois vorfen DO NOT FINISH LAST.
(11/25/2009 9:09:27 AM)
To all the brilliant people out there who think that therapy cures all problems, you're wrong, it only makes it worse.
I dont agree with twerskys approach on marriage, I am more of the school of thought of real Experts in this field like Rabbi Manis Friedman, I think he should be quoted more, he is a brilliant man and I wish people would appreciate him and his expertise in this field and would listen to what he has to say and his approach to marriage, which is torah's approach and chassidus's approach.
(11/25/2009 9:19:28 AM)
In hindsight
You say: "This guy was really not well psychologicaly or emotionally, he wasn't a healthy human being".

Looking back to your dating and engagement, can you see signs of it? Were there things that bothered you at the time that you ignored? Or did everything seem just fine and was this all a shock?

It's a very sad story. I don't understand what you meant by:

"And to work wasn't an option either, so I had to work my tail off,"

1) Why wasn't working an option for him? What were your plans for the year or two after marriage? Did he learn in kollel?
2) What would have happened if you didn't come to the rescue and work?

I think it's a mistake when wives take over their husband's role when their husbands are not working. It is the husband's job to provide and wives should not be shouldering that burden and giving their husbands the freedom to sit home and do nothing.

(11/25/2009 9:29:06 AM)
to #57 and everyone else
Well, to say that I saw open signs that things would go south while I was dating would be untrue, I couldn't have foreseen this coming in my wildest of dreams.
He seemed to be a good guy who was kind & level headed and all seemed to work in terms of the chemistry and goals.
But as we got to know each other more and living under the same roof we got to see how different we were, and to say the truth, how sick this guy really was, he wanted to bring me down in my goals and didn’t want me to have my own opinions and my own dreams and everything about me had to be done his way and his thinking and it was all about him.
And if I have one advice to give all the single people still out there, forget the size! and forget the yichus! The person whom you’re going to be spending the rest of your life with, is that the right person for you,? That is a question we must all ask ourselves and its sad I had to go through this but BH I have this experience to learn from, and iyh I will not make the same mistake again, but been there done that, and trust me dont overlook the things that bother u about the person even if its a subtle thing, discuss it with your mashpia, it might be a sign of a bigger issue or problem.
It’s not worth overlooking the most vital and important things that will affect yours and your children’s lives forever.
Is he/she a nice person who will care for me and for my children?
Will he/she be there when I need them?
Is he/she honest?
Had he been nice and good to me then I think things could have been worked out.
The Author
(11/25/2009 10:11:14 AM)
Moshiach Tzeiten.
I was a woman married to whom everyone thought was the catch of the season. When I went for help to a rav I asked him 'what happened'? This rav said 'a man isn't complete until he has a wife, and only then can you see the whole person (true colors)'. I thought this was quite interesting and helpful. It also took some of anguish off of me thinking what should I have done? what could I have done?
As is written in many comments above, there is always more to a divorce than anyone who is not in the bedroom with the couple could know.
We all go in to marriage thinking we will beat all the odds and live happily ever after. Though, in the same breath I am thinking that the young couples nowadays feel that marriage, like everything else, is easily disposable and replaceable.
This topic has a million prisms.
(11/26/2009 5:00:40 AM)
I don't understand your advice. If you were unable to tell when you dated him that he was so problematic, well, how can you or anyone avoid marrying someone like that? How will you avoid the mistake in the future?

(12/2/2009 3:44:37 AM)
kallah's mother
The boy's mom is happy to get rid of her deviant son. The girl's mom needs an entire box of tissues!!!!! Sad that the parents of this boy haven't taken any responsibility to teach this son how to behave in a marriage, inorder for the so called beshert to work for both of them. May Hashem protect our daughters and help teach our children that this scenario not happen.
(12/14/2009 2:42:53 PM)
Education reform
I suspect that a deep part of these issues lies within the educational system.

We need to instill greater discipline in bochurim.
(12/20/2009 3:40:06 PM)
take away lessons
Dear Author
It is obvious that you are reading these comments and taking them to heart.
1stly, thank you very much for sharing your very touching and heart-wrenching story, there are many lessons. please note however, that the advice given by commentators is based only on what is written, not on your true story. it is not only likely, it is certain that there are many marriages who's kallah (or choson) would describe exactly as written here, but in actuality simply needs some guidance and a lot of work.
This is NOT a judgment on you or the path that you took.
What Mrs. Junik writes is FUNDAMENTAL to ALL marriages. Yes, happiness is an integral part of marriage but that is the experience of marriage, the ACT of marriage involves tremendous work, often with the happiness well hidden, as in many mitzvos.
Using your description you could easily be describing a case which could be prevented from divorce by understanding that:
- a desire to go on shlichus may be a 'truth' and an 'ideal' but not necessarily a complete description of a person's character, however the facades that we present are indicative of who we would like to be and I'm sure that most kallahs are not fooled completely, it is a true outlook that the bochur is presenting of what he wants to be/thinks he is
- spending all day on youtube (and later going to bars, etc.) is not only an indication of character but a combination of factors, many of which can be helped with the right advice.
- Putting you down when you are bringing in the paycheck and he is wasting time is hurtful, shameless, disgusting etc. - but quite normal for an unemployed person in that situation
Reading this article makes me cry (not for you, author, specifically but) for the hundreds of couples who get married and think that they are the only ones suffering what they are going through
the most important lesson I feel can come from this story is
IF YOU ARE HAVING A PROBLEM IN MARRIAGE, ASK!! there is no taboo, it doesn't mean you are a failure, and it is not insulting to your spouse - IT IS A PART OF LIFE
Start by asking respected friends, or your mashpia. if that doesn't help look for an 'expert', a well known mashpia, rov or marriage lecturer/counselor/therapist. if that doesn't work look for professional therapy - and try two or three different (all well-recommended and researched) therapists before quitting.
Lastly for those who say that therapy doesn't work or makes things work, yes there are cases which make that point, as there are people who get more sick in hospitals. To make such a blanket statement however, and to strengthen a dangerous taboo in our community is literally sakanos nefoshos.
(9/21/2010 6:18:49 AM)
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