Nov 2, 2018
Anti Vaxxers Sue Oholei Torah

Crown Heights residents Sholom and Esther Laine are suing the Oholei Torah school for rejecting their son who wasnt vaccinated.

An 18-month-old baby died of complications from measles at a Jerusalem hospital Thursday, the countrys first death from measles since 2003. The child was not vaccinated, Israeli media reported.

Israel is grappling with one of its worst measles outbreak in decades, with over 1,200 cases reported since the beginning of 2018.

According to Haaretz newspaper there have been 882 cases of measles in Israel in the past year, including 529 in the Jerusalem area, 115 in Tzfat, 74 in Petach Tikva and 55 in the Tel Aviv area. Of these cases, more than 200 were in the month of September indicating the outbreak is not slowing down.

In Rockland County, NY, a measles outbreak infected over 40 people with 11 more suspected cases on tap, Rockland's health commissioner on Wednesday ordered all unvaccinated students in private schools in New Square, Monsey and Spring Valley to stay home from classes, Lohud.com reported.

Approximately four dozen cases of measles have been confirmed in yeshiva students in Monsey, Brooklyn and Lakewood, all of which have been linked to an ongoing epidemic in Jerusalem.

In Crown Heights, a couple has sued Oholei Torah school after their son was denied admission because he had not met state immunization requirements, VIN News reported.

Sholom and Esther Laine filed an emergency injunction in Kings County State Supreme Court on October 17th, saying that while they understood that state law required their four year old son to be immunized in order to attend Yeshiva Oholei Torah, they believed that they were legally entitled to an exemption based on their religious beliefs.

According to court documents obtained by VIN News, the Laines applied to Oholei Torah last March and were told that proof of immunization was mandatory for all new students as per the schools written policy.

Several attempts by the Laines and their lawyer to get Oholei Torah to reverse its decision before the start of the school year failed, and after meeting with the Oholei Torahs elementary administrator during the first week of school, Mrs. Laine was again informed that the yeshiva does not accept any vaccination exemption requests.

The emergency injunction, which included only the Laines version of events, was denied without any further explanation by Judge Carl J. Landicino one week after it was filed. The parties are due back in court on November 14th at which time A Judge will decide whether or not to grant a preliminary injunction, which would compel the yeshiva to admit the Laines son to the school while the case is pending, VIN News reported.

This week, Crown Heights pediatrician Dr. Abie Gottesman has issued a strong warning on the dangerous repercussions from the measles, due to lack of vaccination.

Measles is a highly contagious disease. Young children, the immunocompromised, and non-immune pregnant women are at highest risk for severe complications. Measles is transmitted by airborne particles, droplets, and direct contact with the respiratory secretions of an infected person.

Measles typically presents in adults and children as an acute viral illness characterized by fever and generalized rash. The rash usually starts on the face, proceeds down the body, and may include the palms and soles. The rash lasts several days. Infected individuals are contagious from four days before rash onset through the fourth day after rash appearance.






Most Read Most Comments


Opinions and Comments
1
Alternative option
HOME SCHOOL
(11/2/2018 7:25:07 AM)
2
Caring for others
It seems quite selfish to disregard the concerns of hundreds of others in order to pursue ones personal agenda that can be detrimental to others.
(11/2/2018 7:25:51 AM)
3
Lol
I guess they have different religious beliefs then oholei torah...maybe find a school with the same?
(11/2/2018 7:27:17 AM)
4
Why?
Big chillul hashem. This is so sad. What happened to going to beis din?
(11/2/2018 7:28:31 AM)
5
seriously
1 for a yid to sue shame on them.
2 you want to sue? sue the city or state for the laws
3 maybe other parents don't want unvaccinated children putting theirs at risk.
4 home school your child if you don't want to vaccinate that is a viable option for you (as you do have a right not to vaccinate)
5 don't impose your decisions on other people
(11/2/2018 7:31:34 AM)
6
Halacha
Who gave them a heter arkos?
(11/2/2018 7:38:57 AM)
7
One may be right according to the law but ....
Not such a smart idea to take Oholei Torah to court in the midst of a measles outbreak in Brooklyn specifically in Jewish schools....
(11/2/2018 7:45:00 AM)
8
Unbelievable
People need to do some homework.

The Herd Immunity Imperative
Vaccines dont just work on an individual level, they protect entire populations. Once enough people are immunized, opportunities for an outbreak of disease become so low even people who arent immunized benefit. Essentially, a bacteria or virus simply wont have enough eligible hosts to establish a foothold and will eventually die out entirely. This phenomenon is called herd immunity or community immunity, and it has allowed once-devastating diseases to be eliminated entirely, without needing to vaccinate every individual.

This is critical because there will always be a percentage of the population that cannot be vaccinated, including infants, young children, the elderly, people with severe allergies, pregnant women, or people with compromised immune systems. Thanks to herd immunity, these people are kept safe because diseases are never given a chance to spread through a population.

Public health officials and scientists continue to study herd immunity and identify key thresholds, but one telling example is the country of Gambia, where a vaccination rate of just 70% of the population was enough to eliminate Hib disease entirely.

However, if too many people forgo vaccinations, herd immunity can break down, opening up the population to the risk of outbreaks. That is why many officials and doctors consider widespread immunization a public health imperative and blame recent disease outbreaks on a lack of vaccination.
(11/2/2018 7:47:15 AM)
9
Its like...
Making a hole under your own seat in a boat, filled with other people. (RL an 18-month old baby passed away yesterday in Eretz Yisroel from the measles)
(11/2/2018 7:49:14 AM)
10
Wow
People can be so selfish! If u dont vaccinate your children they are at risk for serious diseases and spreading different forms of them! I hope the schools wins! Thank I for protecting our children!
(11/2/2018 7:53:52 AM)
11
What religious reasons?
Please tell me what religious reasons apply to them and not to the rest of us?
(11/2/2018 7:57:19 AM)
12
Religious belief???
Why do so many twist their own strange ideas into religion? "Oh here's a strange set of ideas, I actually have a few to add" absaloutly moronic a religion is a system of worship with an objective standard, otherwise anyone and everyone can arm their horrible ideas with "religious freedom"
(11/2/2018 8:00:31 AM)
13
Here we go again ...
Those who are anti-vaccination will continue their old and tired arguments. The "autism" arguments have been discredited and its scientific validity disproved.

Yet, there are people who continue to go back the the "autism" line of fighting. Oh, that and big business ... that's always a good one.

I wonder when it will happen that a child who did not get vaccinated and r"l contracted one of these diseases will sue their parents.

In the meantime, measles - and who knows what other medical problems - will continue to rise unchecked.

How sad.
(11/2/2018 8:02:27 AM)
14
Kol Hakovod!
👍to OT and Collive for underscoring the importance of this issue.... mamush Pikuach Nefesh!
(11/2/2018 8:03:12 AM)
15
Yossi.
The headline is a bit off.
This article about measles outbreak & vaccinations in general
NOT about Sholom Laine & OT......
(11/2/2018 8:04:10 AM)
16
Settle the case
It's easy for OT just tell the parents they can you'll accept the child but only for general studies,!
(11/2/2018 8:06:27 AM)
17
is the law on their side or not?
I'm not getting into the argument if it should or shouldn't not be done... and the article seems a bit slanted.. however..

The question is whether the school must admit a child who is not vaccinated.

OT is the only school in CH with that rule and it just started this year.

https://www.nvic.org/Vaccine-Laws/state-vaccine-requirements/newyork.aspx
(11/2/2018 8:10:37 AM)
18
Chutzpah
Measles breakout made possible by...the print house!
(11/2/2018 8:12:07 AM)
19
Disbelief
Mamash Chutzpa to be so selfish ,and put entire school at risk .
(11/2/2018 8:15:20 AM)
20
Great job!
Keep up the fight!! The Laines are doing this community a HUGE chesed!
(11/2/2018 8:15:52 AM)
21
Another Parent
How about another parent that does not want her child to go to school with other children who are not vaccinated? Is there a law I can look into to insure my child's safety?
(11/2/2018 8:25:32 AM)
22
Illogical
They're trying to get their child into a religious school while claiming a religious exemption from one of the school's requirements? Which religion do these parents practice that teaches them not to vaccinate their children?
(11/2/2018 8:30:14 AM)
23
Religious exemption?
Under what rav?
(11/2/2018 8:35:12 AM)
24
No vaccines, no entrance
I do not want my kids to go to school with children that have not been vaccinated.
(11/2/2018 8:35:28 AM)
25
So wrong
What selfish people. Not only are they putting their own children, other children and adults at risk, now they'r also forcing the school to fund a legal battle. Ridiculous.
(11/2/2018 8:37:29 AM)
26
really?
While this is an important discussion to be had, and people need to recognize the dangers of not vaccinating their children (the danger it presents to their own children and the huge danger it presents to children who are immuno-compromized and for whatever reason can not be vaccinated) I think posting this story here is more lashon hara and a chance to 'stir the pot' than anything else. We saw the story last night and checked to see if it was posted here. We were relieved to see that it wasn't...alas that has changed.
(11/2/2018 8:38:38 AM)
27
Suing due to religious belief
How is it a religious belief not to vaccinate one's child?
(11/2/2018 8:42:25 AM)
28
This is ridiculous
Show me where in the Torah it says that you shouldnt vaccinate your kids. Show where the Rebbe once said that getting vaccines is not a good idea. Ive only seen a letter where he was pro vaccine. To site religious beliefs as a reason to not vaccinate your kid is not only wrong, its a chilul HaShem. Vaccines are around for a reason, primarily
Because the diseases they prevent are so awful and contagious. Any person who doesnt vaccinate their kids is selfishy putting other children at risk just so that they can feel better about themselves thinking that theyve fulfilled a religious belief. Give me a break! Do everyone a favor and get your kids vaccinated!
(11/2/2018 8:47:18 AM)
29
Bhh
Thank you ot for keeping the school safe..the whole school shouldnt have to be at risk.
(11/2/2018 8:50:28 AM)
30
Disgusting!
Your religious beliefs?!? Which religion? Definitely NOT orthodox Judaism. And if that's not your religion, your kids doesn't belong in OT!
(11/2/2018 8:56:18 AM)
31
Is it 1200 or 882 cases? Maybe try fact checking?
Israel is grappling with one of its worst measles outbreak in decades, with over 1,200 cases reported since the beginning of 2018.

According to Haaretz newspaper there have been 882 cases of measles in Israel in the past year,
(11/2/2018 8:56:32 AM)
32
WHAT RELIGOUS BELIEFS
the rebbe excplicetly was pro vaccanies
(11/2/2018 8:59:36 AM)
33
Laines want to risk the health of their child , but why OURS ?
If they do not want to vaccinate their kids its their choice ,
but then keep them all inside the house.
Why would you want to bring
your not vaccinated kids to school and make all the kids around him sick ?!?!?
(11/2/2018 9:00:59 AM)
34
Pikuach nefesh
The Torah gives permission to the doctor to heal, and therefore halachikly you can take the word of a doctor who declares one not well enough to eat on Yom Kippur (together with consulting with a rov).

If so, to decide based on unfounded conspiracy theories and distorted facts and generalizations to not vaccinate is irresponsible at best and can cause great harm to yourself and others r"l at worst.

If you decide you know better then the "foolish sheeple" go live on your own planet where you won't affect others by your dangerous decisions.

If you're a chossid at least listen to the Rebbe's advise of consulting with expert doctors. Is there corruption in government and pharmaceutical companies? I'm sure. But to such an extent as anti-vaxxers suggest, you should then deny the moon landings and 9/11 (I wouldn't be surprised they do).
(11/2/2018 9:04:34 AM)
35
Say word?
Religious beliefs make you not vaccine your kid?
(11/2/2018 9:05:13 AM)
36
Shocking
A yid should sue another yid?
A chassid should take the Rebbes moisad to court?
(And exactly what part of their religion exempts them from vaccinating?) utterly ridiculous.
If you dont like the schools policy, go somewhere else.
(11/2/2018 9:05:30 AM)
37
Oh please
Due to their "religious" beliefs? Where in the Torah does it say not only that it's OKAY to endanger your own child and others by not vaccinating, but that one SHOULD? Massive chillul Hashem. This has nothing to do with their religious beliefs.
(11/2/2018 9:06:36 AM)
38
Crazy parents
I'm usually not with the school for different reasons, this time I'm with them 100%
(11/2/2018 9:08:43 AM)
39
OT
Thank you OT for keeping our children safe! And Lains I respect your opinion but pls do research and understand how dreadful this can be not only to your child but others as well!
(11/2/2018 9:10:33 AM)
40
Unbelievable
It's parents like this so should not be a part of our community!
The selfishness of people nowadays particularly when it comes from our quote-unquote community is utterly despised
(11/2/2018 9:12:58 AM)
41
Non Crown Heightser
Where we have the axiom chassidim ein mishpochoh, and where virtually all families among us do vaccinate, it seems rather than causing Oholei Torah legal fees and potential risk to the talmidim, that some people from the community or some respected individuals can influence them otherwise.
(11/2/2018 9:15:03 AM)
42
Religious Beliefs????
What about insuring that others are not infected due to an erroneous belief that vaccinations can cause adverse effects?
I am a Senior Citizen STILL suffering the after-effects of being infected with Whooping Cough THREE YEARS after being stricken DESPITE being RESPONSIBLY up-to-date with immunizations.

One must recognize that the decisions that one makes with respect to this inyan can have disastrous effects on "Innocent Victims," such as yours truly!
(11/2/2018 9:15:59 AM)
43
Support for the Laine Family
For those informed parents who would like to show support for the families, how can we do so? It is absurd to let any school try to take our religious and medical freedoms away. This isn't nazi Germany where we have to let our brothers and sisters be injected or have other medical procedures performed against their will. We must stand up for our human rights now before it is too late, no matter which side you are on.
(11/2/2018 9:17:12 AM)
44
They should not be allowed into Oholei Torah
Parents may have the right to do as they please. However they do not have a right to put other people or kids in danger if they chose not to vaccinate. I agree with the school's policy. Children must be in a safe and healthy environment.
(11/2/2018 9:19:17 AM)
45
Sad situation
As a nurse whos been one for decades and had both types of measles, chicken pox, mumps and whooping cough as a young child l can assure you that I wouldnt want even my worst enemies to have to go through that . I can remember Doctor Spungeon (OBM) stopping by the house with the public health nurse to give my mother quarrentine notices to post at the doors and them talking about how they hope that someday, somehow therell be an end to this. I can remember the fear every fall when polio season came around and having not one, but two schoolmates contract the disease. I can sympathize with parents who are truly fearful of vaccinations. Many people still believe the studies that have been published and eventually proven false. They have the right to believe as they choose. I cannot sympathize with putting my grand children and great grandchildren at risk. I commend and am grateful for the schools stance on this. I f you feel so strongly that you wont comply with regulations formulated to protect children (not just yours!) Id suggest that you change schools, find an on line school, homeschool or move.
If I were of an age where I had young children in school and was aware that the school was negligent in maintaining basic public health laws, Id do as l previously suggested and transfer to a school that took its responsibility to the community seriously. I truly can understand that some very caring and well meaning people feel very strongly about not administering vaccines but I cannot sit quietly by in light of the recent outbrakes.
Personally, the toxic fertilizers and sprays and manipulation of our foods (unless organic and non GMO) will probably be more of a health risk than vaccines ever could be.
(11/2/2018 9:21:21 AM)
46
This is worse than your think
This child will have no friends. Bad parents
(11/2/2018 9:22:03 AM)
47
You think youre all better than others?! Wow
Wow people are commenting without doing any research whatsoever. Amazing how religious you all seem to be. If you think youre all religious why dont you take time and try and see things from another view point. Huh?!
(11/2/2018 9:24:48 AM)
48
Why do we fear?
We are NOT vaccinated against:‬
‪Acinetobacter‬
‪African sleeping sickness (African trypanosomiasis) Trypanosoma brucei‬
‪AIDS‬
‪Amebiasis‬
‪Angiostrongyliasis Angiostrongylus‬
‪Anisakiasis Anisakis‬
‪Arcanobacterium haemolyticum infection‬
‪Argentine hemorrhagic fever Junin virus‬
‪Ascariasis‬
‪Aspergillosis‬
‪Astrovirus infection‬
‪Babesiosis‬
‪Bacillus cereus infection‬
‪Bacterial pneumonia (multiple bacteria)‬
‪Bacterial vaginosis‬
‪Bacteroides infection‬
‪Balantidiasis‬
‪Bartonellosis‬
‪Baylisascaris infection Baylisascaris species‬
‪BK virus infection BK virus‬
‪Black piedra‬
‪Blastocystosis‬
‪Blastomycosis‬
‪Bolivian hemorrhagic fever Machupo virus‬
‪Botulism‬
‪Brazilian hemorrhagic fever‬
‪Brucellosis‬
‪Bubonic plague‬
‪Burkholderia infection‬
‪Calicivirus infection (Norovirus and Sapovirus)‬
‪Campylobacteriosis‬
‪Candidiasis (Moniliasis; Thrush) usually Candida albicans and other Candida species‬
‪Capillariasis Intestinal disease by Capillaria philippinensis, hepatic disease by Capillaria hepatica and pulmonary disease by Capillaria aerophila‬
‪Carrions disease Bartonella bacilliformis‬
‪Cat-scratch disease Bartonella henselae‬
‪Cellulitis usually Group A Streptococcus and Staphylococcus‬
‪Chagas Disease (American trypanosomiasis) Trypanosoma cruzi‬
‪Chancroid Haemophilus ducreyi‬
‪Chikungunya Alphavirus‬
‪Chlamydia Chlamydia trachomatis‬
‪Chlamydophila pneumoniae infection (Taiwan acute respiratory agent or TWAR) Chlamydophila pneumoniae‬
‪Cholera Vibrio cholerae‬
‪Chromoblastomycosis usually Fonsecaea pedrosoi‬
‪Chytridiomycosis Batrachochytrium dendrabatidis‬
‪Clonorchiasis Clonorchis sinensis‬
‪Clostridium difficile colitis Clostridium difficile‬
‪Coccidioidomycosis Coccidioides immitis and Coccidioides posadasii‬
‪Colorado tick fever (CTF) Colorado tick fever virus (CTFV)‬
‪Common cold (Acute viral rhinopharyngitis; Acute coryza) usually rhinoviruses and coronaviruses‬
‪CreutzfeldtJakob disease (CJD) PRNP‬
‪Crimean-Congo hemorrhagic fever (CCHF) Crimean-Congo hemorrhagic fever virus‬
‪Cryptococcosis Cryptococcus neoformans‬
‪Cryptosporidiosis Cryptosporidium species‬
‪Cutaneous larva migrans (CLM) usually Ancylostoma braziliense; multiple other parasites‬
‪Cyclosporiasis Cyclospora cayetanensis‬
‪Cysticercosis Taenia solium‬
‪Cytomegalovirus infection‬
‪Cytomegalovirus‬
‪Plus the 1000's of other infectious diseases that begin with the letters D-Z. There are literally THOUSANDS.‬
‪Take Leprosy for instance. The reason you don't fear leprosy is that there isn't a vaccine for it.‬
‪Wondering how many parents walk around daily concerned about their child contracting leprosy? It still exists - by the thousands in various parts of the world. The United States has roughly 200 cases every year. Did you know that? I didn't until I looked it up.‬
‪Don't you think it's weird that there was hysteria over 140 measles cases (where no one died or was permanently harmed from Measles itself) and you hear exactly ZERO about 200 cases of leprosy?
‪Everyone knows when there is a measles outbreak. It's all over the local news here that there are THREE cases of chicken pox in LA. How do we not hear about these cases of leprosy? Why aren't you walking around concerned about leprosy every day? Why aren't you concerned about someone from another country bringing leprosy into Australia or the US and somehow exposing all of our most vulnerable to this illness?‬
‪I'll tell you why.‬
‪Because there's no vaccine for leprosy.‬
‪You are afraid of what we vaccinate for because these illnesses are hyped up all of the time. It's propaganda. You are told what to fear, so they can then sell you an alleged solution.‬
‪Measles and others is a concern for you because you are told that it should be. But you don't walk around fearing leprosy. Your children haven't contracted it either.‬
‪Funny how that all works, isn't it?‬
‪The only diseases we fear are the ones that a vaccine has been developed and marketed for. We never feared measles and mumps in the early 20th century... ‬
(11/2/2018 9:31:01 AM)
49
Why are you all worried
If you think that vaccinating prevents illness why are you so worried. You had the vaccine?!
(11/2/2018 9:31:54 AM)
50
What the rebbe says

The rebbe says to vaccinate, but many choose to omit one detail, if the ingredients are proven safe.
(11/2/2018 9:35:31 AM)
51
Somebody in the know please explain
If almost all kids are in fact vaccinated, what risk is this child posing to anyones health?
(11/2/2018 9:36:25 AM)
52
Chamirah Sakanta Meisurah!
The Laine parents are entitled to their warped beliefs. However, they don't have the right to endanger other children!
(11/2/2018 9:37:11 AM)
53
What about spiritual risk??
I don't want my kids going to school with kids that are allowed to watch TV and freely surf the internet. Kick them all out. I don't want them putting my kids at risk.
(11/2/2018 9:38:20 AM)
54
Such hypocrisy
If theyre so religious even more so than oholeitorah than why are they going to secular court not going to beis din ?
(11/2/2018 9:44:21 AM)
55
Best Solution is...
Go protest outside their house until they drop the lawsuit.
They are picking a fight with most parents in CH... not only Oholei Torah.
# 20 and 43 must be related to the Laine family.
(11/2/2018 9:44:28 AM)
56
Knowledgeable professional
It is both astounding as well as sickening (no pun intended...), to see the levels of "selective" journalism and reporting displayed in this article. The incredible ignorance and fear mongering which is being cultivated by those who either don't know any better, or more likely, have a very specific agenda, are frankly astonishing.
As per the reports from the Israel, the 18 month old child who passed, had a host of ongoing medical and health related issues. The child was from a family, which according to media reports, was part of the radical "Shaliyat" ("Taliban women") sect, which refrain from contact with the authorities and general interactions with the health services. The family was overtly neglectful of basic child safety and overall child health, (the child had never been registered with the Misrad Ha'pnim, and further media reports indicate that the emergency services were only summoned after the child was no longer breathing and had no pulse). To use this as "fear factor" opening for an article, without the accompanying relevant details, is a disgrace to legitimate journalism and something that any reputable media outlet should be ashamed of!
(11/2/2018 9:46:09 AM)
57
The law
Says a private school may be stricter than the state law but not less. Therefore OT has every right to not allow an unvaccinated child in school. I wish every school would.follow their lead. Such chutzpah. Home school and stay in the house
(11/2/2018 9:47:30 AM)
58
Proud OT parent
I am so proud of OT for not backing down. I hope that OT wins! We need to stop missinformation!
(11/2/2018 9:48:02 AM)
59
Reminder to all hot headed commenters
Non vaccinated children are NOT WALKING GERM FACTORIES

I don't think the laines would have tried to bring their son to school if he has the measles ?$&#(@/)@??#!?$
(11/2/2018 9:49:52 AM)
60
Hundreds hurt emotionally from vaccines
Fact is that you can compile a list of hundreds of children (according to their parents) in Crown Heigths who were hurt, physically and mostly emotionally from vaccines, from the large size of each dose, from the big number of doses and from them being given at too young of an age.

Dozens of parents have seen a clearly bad change for the long term in the child due to vaccinations.

There are tens of millions of dollars coming into the Crown Heights community every year (through the City DOE, insurance companies, State OPWDD) to take care of the hundreds of emotionally disturbed etc. children, hurt by vaccines.

Polio was stopped by vaccines, and vaccines have their place in saving lives and preventing disease, but it seems that President Trump has a point that vaccines are not being done right today in America (seems his only campaign promise for which he did nothing).

- The writer is a Crown Heights father of a large family, teacher for many years, and founder/head of an elementary school and a special education agency.
(11/2/2018 9:59:12 AM)
61
This is not judgemental its practical
Supporters of the Laine family should understand we are not looking to take away their (or your) rights as a parent , at the same time we are entitled to protect our rights and not have children who are not vaccinated playing or sitting next to ours every day. It seems there are quite a few families that do not vaccinate and some of their children most probably sit next to my children and grandchildren in school- how about opening a small school for children whose parents dont believe in vaccinations ? This way both sides are protected .
(11/2/2018 9:59:51 AM)
62
chutzpah
Selfish and stupid. Kudo to OT for sticking to their principles! I hope this case gets thrown out of court. My kids are in OT and i DO NOT WANT UNVACCINATED KIDS IN THEIR CLASS. The only unvaccinated kids in our community should be the ones who for MEDICAL REASONS are not able to . It is selfish to no vaccinate healthy children .
(11/2/2018 9:59:54 AM)
63
Yukel
If only there was a stupidity vaccine for these parents
(11/2/2018 10:00:49 AM)
64
To #43
show your support by removing your kids form our schools. Start a special school for all unvaccinated kids. SPare the rest of us
(11/2/2018 10:01:49 AM)
65
Everyone loves to SCAPEGOAT
Jews have historically been scapegoated - destroyed for not "converting" or working on Shabbos, or looking different, or...

It's cathartic to scapegoat. You get to focus on other people and how disgusting and horrible they are. It's intoxicating.

Especially in public forums like this. Hundreds of stressed, struggling, average people get to come together and feel STRONG AND SUPERIOR because they can freely destroy the Laine family.

Newsflash: If your kids are fully vaccinated, they're ok. Even if they get something, it's a mild form in 99% of the cases. Look at the numbers. Second newsflash: Deaths from these illnesses in the West are extremely rare, if not nonexistent, unless there are serious co-illnesses. Third newsflash: The U.S. vaccine schedule is so ridiculous and over the top that it's mocked in Europe. Blindly listening to a U.S. doctor is simply dumb. They are VERY human, and receive many benefits for promoting their ridiculous vaccine schedule - benefits both monetary and social within their medical communities - again, scapegoating and demonizing those who are brave enough to research and question them. They HATE when patients question them. It's a religion.

Bottom line: You are less at risk from the Laine children than you are from crossing the street. If you or your children are immunocompromised, then clearly, going to any public place is a health hazard. Certainly, you'd never get on a plane.

What goes around comes around. I would bet that everyone scapegoating and destroying this family will have the tables turned on them sooner rather than later.
(11/2/2018 10:02:50 AM)
66
Sad, but there is a solution
If you are so strong in your antivax ' researched opinions' Start your own Anti Vax schools. This way your child, children are all on the same page for better and for worse.
No arguing no fighting. But it will be interesting I hope Im wrong to see the consequences. Not sure if its worth the 'experiment'
(11/2/2018 10:02:58 AM)
67
aaron
as someone whom works in the food industry for over 20 years i can say
the toxic fertilizers herbicides sprays and manipulation of our foods (GMO) is more of a health risk than vaccines . and yet you probably dont purchase organic food.
and yet organic foods have its issues as well, i.e. harmful bacteria from not pasteurization insect germs from non pesticides. its a catch 22. OY!
(11/2/2018 10:03:01 AM)
68
to #20
Why do you support the Laine's in this law suit?
(11/2/2018 10:04:49 AM)
69
CA law
So grareful that in CA it is the law that a kid can not enter school without their vaccinations. It should be implemented in the other states, and you won't be able to have parents suing the school.
(11/2/2018 10:11:18 AM)
70
Yahuda
1) There are quite a few letters from the Rebbe about the importance of being vaccinated.
2) what religious belief??????
Ushmartem al nafshoisachem!!!!
Why does Sholom Laine chain smoke!!!!!
3) If this ONE child is acxepted, your puting the lives of the other 1999 studrnts at risk.
4) the Rebbe always speak to yeddidim U'mayvinim.
Speak to The Rebbe's doctor or Dr. Rosen, Gottesman.......
(11/2/2018 10:19:33 AM)
71
as a close freind of this couple
#1 How dare you tell them to move out of this community - they pick up the tuition that you couldn't afford for your child in any school you may have sent kids to. This man is writing checks for tzedaka in our mosdos that not one man with money in this neighborhood has written in 60 years.

#2 regarding vaccines - he chooses not to amongst 1000's who do - that's his choice and your kid (who you vaccinate) isn't at risk of getting it. So you be super vigilant and vaccinate and that will give him the liberty not to.

#3 you wish you came close to the toes of this woman for the amount she cares for her children,

A sick community we live in where people open their mouths on fellow Jews who they don't have any clue how much chesed they do.
(11/2/2018 10:22:14 AM)
72
Thank you Oholei Torah
For protecting my kids and the rest of the community.
(11/2/2018 10:22:26 AM)
73
The other side of the coin
Vaccine injury is real! That is why the government set up a vaccine injury compensation program. Brain encephalitis is amoung one of the injuries that can be compensated for . That is exactly the injury that causes autism and chronic seizures which children have died from. This risk amoung many many others is written right on the pharmaceutical insert! There are tens of if not hundreds of families worldwide who's lives have changed DRASTICALLY after giving their child or themselves a vaccine. A MD who practice is mostly Amish population said on record that in 25 years he has only seen two autistic cases . One of those children was adapted from China and vaccinated. Why are the problems that plague the orthodox community e.g. our children not exist in theirs ? Where's the autoimmune disease, pediatric cancer , autism SIDE etc? The hep B is one if the vaccines mandated on the school schedule. The virus is only readmitted sexually and through IV drug use. A very toxic vaccine that is strongly linked to MS in France when it went on the schedule and no one there or in Europe takes this vaccine anyone unless it's a mother who tests positive for the virus while pregnant . Yet here rather than testing the mother it is given to ALL babies and small children given the drug crisis. GARISIL is also strongly recommended but not as yet mandated in our state for preteens to take . A vaccine so toxic that it was pulled off the market in Japan. The mandates don't allow parents to pick and choose the vaccines. If a school has a mandates policy then the children have to take ALL. Now the flu shot for daycare and preschool was added to the growing list of mandated vaccines in NYC. A parent who may be comfortable with the MMR now has to give this or their child can't attend OT! A healthy girl 10yrs old took it during a routine checkup and was DEAD 16hrs later . Autopsy shows what ? You gussed it brain encephalitis. The parents now will receive 250k in compensation from the VIC but they rather have their daughter alive! Their story along with many many other parents including frum parents is on vaxxed TV. This is a perfectly legimate concern for couples like the Laines to have . There are Ravs that support their decision from halacha. Death itself is a injury listed right on the pharmaceutical packinging for All vaccines. I'm not obligated by halacha to take this kind of RISK for preventive medicine !
(11/2/2018 10:23:42 AM)
74
If you don't listen to the Rebbe, find another school
The Rebbe was very clear that you should listen to the medical community, and the medical community overwhelmingly support vaccination.

If you don't want to listen to the Rebbe, your kids don't belong in Oholei Torah.
(11/2/2018 10:24:33 AM)
75
Puppets and peasants...
The level of ignorance in this comment thread is astounding! The masses have been cowed and scared into believing whatever it is that the "puppets" from the medical establishment (the vast majority of today's medical professionals) "regurgitate" to their patients - at the direction and behest of their corporate overlords. Any half-witted individual, capable of the most rudimentary research into the matter, can unquestionably see that this is the case. Someone should post a link to the Porter Bridges case proceedings from the Federal Vaccine Injury Court as a start. Yet, even with all of this evidence, which has been proven to be true beyond any doubt IN A COURT OF LAW, we still prefer to live with "our heads in the sand". Shameful!
Thank you Laine family for having the fortitude to stand up for the truth and for what's right, and for not bowing to the ignorant and the "status quo". It's won't be long before the truth is revealed!
(11/2/2018 10:29:57 AM)
76
To #26
The Laine's filed a lawsuit, placing the controversy in Public Domain. This is not Lashon Hara.
(11/2/2018 10:31:08 AM)
77
To 71
Sorry you could do many good things but suing ohelei Torah due to its policy is unacceptable, really low. She has a right to do as she wishes with her kids, go find a School that supports that.
(11/2/2018 10:35:36 AM)
78
yankel
ARE YOU ALL CRAZY MY GRANDSON ALMOST DIED FROM NOT TAKING HIS SHOTS SOMEONE TALKED MY DAUGHTER OUT DOING THE RIGHT THING GET YOUR SHOTS SAVE YOUR CHILDREN.!!!!!!!!!!!!!
(11/2/2018 10:51:46 AM)
79
66# to
The laines are good people.


But I don't know how you can complain that they are being destroyed when they are the ones who decided to go to court!?
(11/2/2018 10:53:22 AM)
80
AND NOW FOR THE TRUTH
Zero deaths from the thousands of measles cases in Israel, NY, CA. Zero pregnant women losing their babies. THIS IS SUCH A JOKE.

To restate:

The 18 month old child who passed had a host of ongoing medical and health related issues. The child was from a family, which according to media reports, was part of the radical "Shaliyat" ("Taliban women") sect, which refrain from contact with the authorities and general interactions with the health services. The family was overtly neglectful of basic child safety and overall child health, (the child had never been registered with the Misrad Ha'pnim, and further media reports indicate that the emergency services were only summoned after the child was no longer breathing and had no pulse). To use this as "fear factor" opening for an article, without the accompanying relevant details, is a disgrace to legitimate journalism and something that any reputable media outlet should be ashamed of!
(11/2/2018 10:54:30 AM)
81
religious beliefs
The whole thing is ludicrous and will be shut down by competent judge. The logic is simple. If this PRIVATE religious institution is not in line with your religious beliefs then don't send your child to said institution.
(11/2/2018 11:00:26 AM)
82
number 48
youre an idiot. Vaccines are developed for the more dangerous illnesses. I dont tink anyone died from cytomagelavirus, my son had it. sounds fancy and dangerous, its not . neither are most of the others on your list. and you can bet that if they were abe to develop a vaccine against AIDS or cancer, everyone would be taking that as well... beside you obviously because well a deadly disease is safer than the non existent mercury in vaccinations.
(11/2/2018 11:02:17 AM)
83
I'm scared to be in CH!
Not for fear of getting the measles, but from seeing the way the CH community will DESTROY a family putting ZERO RISK ON VACCINATED CHILDREN!!!

If your kids are vaccinated, they won't get measles. And if they do, they would have gotten it at a restaurant or on a subway, and it's a mild case if you've been vaccinated.

Unvaccinated kids pose no danger to vaccinated kids - otherwise, why get vaccinated at all? As a parent of children who got pertussis (whooping cough) and I am vaccinated - I DID NOT GET IT OF COURSE! My children coughed for a week and stayed home, and now they're immune for life. It was a big nothing. Chicken pox. A big nothing. This is so ridiculous and to see the MOBS ON ATTACK LIKE NAZIS!! So irrational and emotional, I'm sure they'd resort to violence if given the chance. It's beyond scary.
(11/2/2018 11:02:37 AM)
84
All stupid ppl you can get measles even if u r vaccinated . No difference at all .
Whatever
(11/2/2018 11:04:50 AM)
85
Robin Hood gave charity too
Just because someone has some money and gives Tzdakah doesn't give them a right to do what they want and try to be different than everyone else.
Rules are for everyone both rich and poor
(11/2/2018 11:07:34 AM)
86
TO 71
Money cannot always buy one a free pass.

Stop Bashing CH, when the one you are protecting is suing the Rebbes establishment.
(11/2/2018 11:09:51 AM)
87
Religious Exemptions
Anti-Vaxers are certainly a religion onto their own. They've already dropped halacha as a requirement R'L (by not following halachah to vaccinate their children and by taking OT to court)

They already have their own Doctors who spend TONS of time web-surfing. These professionals have already uncovered so many of the dangers including autism and other horrible maladies that can inflict your children if you listen to your outdated doctors and rabonim and inject this horrible stuff into your kid.

They are one stop past the Elokistin on the crazy train. Make sure to take the "off the reservation" route.

All they are missing is religious leaders so that they can have a bonafide religious exemption. Please, a real bakasha nafshis, when you choose your religious leaders, please do not call them "Rabbis". Priests, gurus, Anti-Vax Kohen Godal, anything but Rabbi.


We are Lubavitch and will welcome any of you back to yiddishkeit whenever you choose. Our motto is "wherever you may roam, you can always come back home"
(11/2/2018 11:14:08 AM)
88
Why is this in court?
OT is a private institution, if you don't like their policies, then find yourself another school. Even if you're right that all the vaccination science is bunk and the near elimination of many diseases over the past century are due to homeopathic remedies or astrology, if the school wants to impose a condition, why don't they have that right? You have a right over your kids to do what you want to them, other parents who created the school have the right to create conditions upon which children who want to attend school with their children must follow. Why is your right not to vaccinate your kids more important than other parents' rights to keep their children away from unvaccinated kids?
(11/2/2018 11:16:31 AM)
89
Schools that have federal funding are not legally "private"
A "private" school that accepts federal funding for example the lunch program has to comply with their state mandates which allow vaccine exceptions in the form of medical or religious in New York. OT doesn't fit the definition legally of being a "private" school . That is why ALL of our local daycare centers that accept vouchers for tuition along with other government funding DO accept the religious waiver because by LAW they have to. How many of you send your children in vouchers to daycare centers here with children who have the religious waiver not to vaccinate yet you have the audacity to expect parents that their children should be denied a proper chinuch.
(11/2/2018 11:17:11 AM)
90
#48
So brilliant - never thought of it this way and you're right.
(11/2/2018 11:17:34 AM)
91
To #43
Nazi Germany?

Seriously?!

I find your analogy seriously flawed, so flawed that you would have to use a scare tactic of throwing in Nazi Germany to gain support for your opinion.

Lets move on from Nazi Germany to the Democracy of the USA.

The School has a right to make such requirements, its called a policy, not a holocaust.

(Most likely (not verified) the school told the family that if they can provide a Dr's note then they would be exempt, but obviously it is apparent that no Dr would provide such a note.)

The family also has a right to find their child another school that meets their religious beliefs.

In Fact trying to instill/force your beliefs on others is closer to an analogy of Nazi Germany than yours.
(11/2/2018 11:18:00 AM)
92
To 83 #
Can you explain what you mean about destroying a family, when they decided to go to court because they did not like the policy of a private institution?
(11/2/2018 11:24:41 AM)
93
# 83
Its the other way around.

A Family Sued an Institution. The fact that it was made public is something the family should have thought about before and its position they knowingly put themselves in.
(11/2/2018 11:26:03 AM)
94
Non Crown Heightser
If there children are not vaccinated we should look elsewhere for shidduchim.
(11/2/2018 11:36:01 AM)
95
Common sense
The Laines are completely right to fight and protect their child. There are a lot of studies linking vaccines to autism and many other physical, physiological, and emotional problems. These studies were not refuted or debunked. Its just that the pharmaceutical companies who market these vaccines try and discredit them. People need to read up on it and use some common sense! Just because your doctor says their safe, doesnt mean they are! He or she is just Parroting whatever he or she was taught in medical school etc. where the curriculum is written by pharmaceutical companies!
(11/2/2018 11:36:11 AM)
96
the rebbe opinion
" "

" "

" " " " " ' ' " "
(11/2/2018 11:42:14 AM)
97
Look at the NON-KOSHER INGREDIENTS in vaccines
Just throwing this out there.. there are a host of non-kosher ingredients inside vaccines that your are INJECTING straight into your kids bloodstream... GELATIN, PIG DNA, Monkey DNA, OTHER HUMANS dna, apart from the nerve-altering metals. Why keep kosher at all then? Why even look at kosher symbols on food packaging- when you can bypass it all and go direct into the blood! Read the vaccine inserts people.
(11/2/2018 11:43:02 AM)
98
the rebbe opinion
" "

" "

" " " " " ' ' " "

translation

In answer to your letter from erev shabbos kodesh where you ask me about the shots that they do now to small kids, how should he act? In this case it says do not separate yourself from the community, and you shall act how most of the class in your childs school do, and god will help you raise all your kids to torah chupa and good deeds in abundance.
2 that I just got your letter and the one before that and I'm rushing to answer you ahead of the others in line before you! Even the letters that are urgent because of the topic of vaccinations, im surprised you asked me about yhis because already a few people from israel already asked me regarding this, and I answered them that its a obligation to do the vaccinations, since most people do it here eith success, and its self understood if there are different places to get the vaccinations they should get it from the places that are checked and reputable
3 what you wrote to me regarding the vaccinations and what happened unfortunately to a few people that took these vaccinations. This happened in the beginning when they started these vaccinations before they perfected the way to make these vaccinations. However now that there is already many months of experience with theses perfected vaccinations and after they verified the reliability of these vaccinations there is no danger at all to use
(11/2/2018 11:46:28 AM)
99
#56 Important to note
You write as a news flash that if your child is vaccinated they will not catch any diseases from non-vaccinated children. This is a common argument brought up by non-vaxxers. The problem is that there are children who haven't been able to be vaccinated for various reasons. Some have had allergic reactions to early vaccinations, some had only one and don't get the second one until they are four years old.
Worse still, there are people with compromised or weak immune systems (cancer patients r"l, or many others). For thenm, vaccinations won't necessarily help. And it would be 1000% reckless for a school to put THOSE children in danger (!) due to an unsubstantiated "religious" belief.
(11/2/2018 11:52:41 AM)
100
Sholom Laine is a tremendous baal tzedaka
Things that people know about and things that nobody knows about.

That said, I hope he realizes what picking a fight with Oholei Torah means.

To those speaking about destroying a family, puh-lease. Someone is suing our children's school. The Rebbe's school. Because they listen to 90% of the medical field's recommendation. And we're talking about it.
Don't stand in front of a target in a shooting range and yell at everyone to stop shooting at you. You're bringing it on yourself.
(11/2/2018 12:01:03 PM)
101
To #48, #59, #60, #65, #71, #75, #83
#48: read what #82 wrote, and then consider: (a) most of your examples don't exist outside of the Third World, and indeed people who travel to those places do get vaccinations or other preventatives for them. (b) About your specific example of leprosy: there is in fact a vaccine for it, it's just not effective enough; and there is a low risk of transmission, since it requires close contact (as compared to other diseases that are spread by droplets in the air. As in any other area of life, you do what you can to protect against the more likely dangers, and trust in Hashem for the rest. (And if not, then tell me: where's your sealed room, your nuclear bomb shelter stocked with 20 years' worth of food, etc.?)

#59: no, of course if he had visible symptoms, they wouldn't send him to school. But nearly every disease - measles included - is contagious for some time before symptoms appear. Not vaccinating allows the virus to multiply in the body, so that there's a greater chance of a breathed-out particle or a drop of saliva containing it and infecting others.

#60: if your notion is that anything that hurts your child emotionally is bad and should be avoided, then frankly you are an unfit parent. Any normal person understands that there will be things that hurt emotionally but are necessary; your kid cries when you first send him or her off to school, but you do it anyway because you know it's best for them, etc.

#65: first of all, no one has ever said that vaccines are 100% effective, so your first "newsflash" is hogwash. Second, you know why "deaths from these illnesses in the West are extremely rare"? Because of herd immunity, brought about by high levels of vaccination.

#71: so because he gives tzedakah, that makes everything else he does okay? If that's the excuse, then we don't need him or his tzedakah, or his sponsorship of "The Dying Torah" (it certainly ain't "living" to him, going against the Rebbe's directives on vaccination and against the explicit halachah of not taking fellow Jews to arkaos shel goyim).

#75: your conspiracy theories aren't even worth a laugh. If that were the case, the medical community would be pushing vaccines for a lot more diseases (like the ones that #48 listed). They don't, because they have the sense to balance risk vs. reward.

#83: same as to #65. And to say that "your children coughed for a week and stayed home" is cruel; it means that you were willing to subject them to easily preventable pain and suffering - and possible complications (which you couldn't have known in advance whether they'd happen), such as broken ribs - because of your misguided ideas. You're scared to be in Crown Heights? Good, then leave and move to some Third World country where they understand what these diseases can do and live in fear of them; then you'll know what it means to be scared.
(11/2/2018 12:03:36 PM)
102
Religious Beliefs?!
A fundamental religious belief of ours:
Shulchan Aruch Choshen Mishpat 26:1
" " : " (' ) ' ' ' ": " " (" ") " (" ' ") ' " " " ( ) " ' " " ' " " (" ") " ( ) " (" ) " :
It is forbidden to appear for trial before heathen Judges and in their Courts of Law,1 supra 14, n. 56. i.e., [the locality wherein] permanent judicial sessions are held by the [civil] magistrates, even regarding a lawsuit that they [the heathen Judges] adjudicate like the Israelite Law.2Git. 88b: These are the judgments which thou shalt set before them (Ex. XXI, 1), i.e., before them and not before heathens. This applies even to a matter where a person is permitted to take the law into his own hands in order to safeguard his interests. , supra 4, Gloss M.E. Even if the two litigants agreed to be tried before them, it is forbidden.3Thus N to Ex. ibid. And whosoever appears for trial before them is considered a wicked person and is as though he blashphemed, reproached and rebelled against the Law of Moses.4Yad, Sanhedrin XXVI, 7; Tur a.l., and Rashi to Ex. ibid. , also Tanḥ. Mishpatim By forsaking the Israelitish Law he thereby indicates that the Torah is not a Law of Truth. Gloss: The [Israelite] Court of Law has the authority to pronounce against him the less severe [Niddui] and [even] the more severe [Herem] ban5 supra 11, n. 9. until he suspends the [legal] rights [which he delegated to] the heathen [authorities] from upon his fellow [-litigant].6MaHaRIK Rt. 154 G. B.K. 117a regarding the two persons who were in dispute about a certain net. When one of them surrendered it to the public office for confiscation, Abaye ruled that the latter could plead that when he surrendered it it was his own property. But Raba maintained that we must pronounce the ban against him until he brings back the net and appears for trial before the Court. , supra 4, n. 6. Hence, in the present ruling where one resorts to heathen Courts even Abaye would agree with Raba. For in the case of the net, if it is really his, there is no prohibition involved by giving it to the heathen Court; but where it still has to be ascertained whether the article is his, even Abaye will agree with Raba Beer Eliyahu. Likewise, is the ban pronounced against him who strengthens the hand[s] of the one who goes to law before a heathen [Court].7RIBaSh s. 102 G. Sheb. 47b: Simeon b. Tarfon states: Whence do we know that there is a prohibition against one who follows up the voluptuous (to procure prostitutes for him)? For it is said: Thou shalt not commit adultery (Ex. XX, 13): thou shalt not cause adultery to be committed (the Heb. text may be pointed as the Hiphil). Hence, one who strengthens the hands of those who commit severe transgressions is also subject to the ban. Resorting to heathen Courts is a severe transgression. , supra n. 4. And even if he does not go to law before a heathen [Court] but compels him [his adversary] by means of a heathen [Court]8e., without obtaining the authorization of the Jewish Court. However, if the plaintiff appeared before the Jewish Court and pleaded that his adversary is a very stern or harsh individual, the Jewish Court may give him such authorization M.E. , next par. to appear with him for trial [before] a Jewish [Court of Law], he is fit to be laid out on the post [for a flogging].9Mord. to B.K. IX G. , infra 388. One who resorted to heathen Courts and was pronounced guilty by their laws, and then he [the guilty person] summoned him [his fellow-litigant] again before Israelite Judges, some say that we do not attend to his [case];10MaHaRIK Rt. 188 (found in Rt. 196) G. Cf. Ned. 20a: It was taught: If one made a vow of Neziruth and then transgressed his vow, his case is not attended to, unless he observes his vow for the full period that he had transgressed it R. Joseph said: Since the Sages have ruled, his case is not to be examined, if a (Jewish) Court of Law attended to it (before the required time), it does not act well. R. Aḥa b. Jacob said: The ban is pronounced against it. The same principle operates in the present ruling. Since he transgressed the law by resorting to a heathen lawcourt, we should not attend to his case. while others say that we do attend to his [case]11Mord. to B.K. X G. unless he was the cause of a loss to his fellow-litigant before the heathen [Courts].12R. Menaḥem of Merseburg G. So too, if he had already made payment in accordance with the ruling of the heathen Court and were he to be tried by the Jewish Court of Law, he would have to pay more, the law is that we do not attend to his case M.E. However, the former opinion seems to me to be fundamental.13We do not examine his case even if it was discovered that the reason he was found guilty by the heathen Court was on account of a bribe that was given to the heathen Judge by his adversary Nethiboth.
(11/2/2018 12:09:36 PM)
103
#83 u r right. This is a mob.
Too much attacking going on. The lains are not idiots and naive and neither are you. There are very strong validating points on both sides with plenty of highly qualified Doctors to back them up. Please refrain from bashing either side when there is NO malicious intent involved. We ALL care about our health and our children's health.
(11/2/2018 12:10:35 PM)
104
#83
#83, please do some research. Not all children CAN be vaccinated for legitimate medical reasons. By not vaccinating their completely healthy child, they are putting those children who can't get vaccinated at risk.
(11/2/2018 12:14:22 PM)
105
To 83
So you support suing the school since they have a different stance? Why dont you Address that.
(11/2/2018 12:21:24 PM)
106
Montrealer
if they say b/c of religious reasons that is so blatantly not true they could never win in court , there are many with their same religion who are equally pro-vaccine , they must tell the truth as to why they don't want to vaccinate their kids
(11/2/2018 12:23:31 PM)
107
thank you aholei torah
thank you aholei torah for keeping our children safe.
(11/2/2018 12:24:50 PM)
108
Listen here #48
Wow. Ok, so all the people who die of cancer every day, we should stop trying to find a cure for? Be thankful to the doctors who were able to find a way to prevent measles and other diseases that kill off people.

Disgusting. Keep your non-vax self away from the rest of us who value life and accept G-d's help when He sends it.
(11/2/2018 12:28:48 PM)
109
Truth
Is the world ready to hear the truth? That we are the only responsible for the sickest generation of children in the history of the world? It would hurt so bad that parents prefer to stay blind...
(11/2/2018 12:39:23 PM)
110
From this chabad.org article: https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/2870103/jewish/What-Does-Jewish-Law-Say-About-Vaccination.htm
"In the spring of 1956 the Rebbe wrote:

. . In reply to your letter in which you ask my opinion about the injections that are commonly given to young children:

It is with regard to matters such as these that the axiom Do not set yourself apart from the community applies. You should act according to that which is done by [the parents of] the majority of children who are in your childrens classes . . .11

Even as the polio vaccine effectively eliminated the dreaded disease, there were instances where faulty shots actually brought about illness. In a letter from the winter of 1957, the Rebbe addressed this issue:

. . The event that occurred in the United States was at the beginning of the use of these vaccines, before the [exact] medical compound was definitively established. This is not the case at present, after months of experience with the vaccine.

Therefore, once a vaccines reliability is firmly established, there is no worry. To the contrary . . .12"
(11/2/2018 12:43:14 PM)
111
To #97
Where did you ever get the notion that keeping kosher has to do with what ends up in your bloodstream? The prohibitions are on eating them, not on injecting them. The halachah is quite clear that most forbidden items - and yes, that includes gelatin, pig and monkey byproducts, etc. - may be used for medicinal purposes when they're not being "enjoyed in their usual way" (see Shulchan Aruch, Yoreh De'ah 155:3).
(11/2/2018 12:45:14 PM)
112
Taking oholeitorah to court doesnt get my sympathy
People who dont vaccinate are not selfish since they truly beleive vaccinating is bad. In this case though I do not think this family deserves sympathy because they are suing oholeitorah in secular court and that says a lot about people when they sue or get others in trouble with the law. This just takes it to a whole other level.
(11/2/2018 12:45:19 PM)
113
Vaccinate
I won't send my kids to a school that allows unvaccinated kids! It's totally unsafe.
(11/2/2018 12:48:31 PM)
114
Thank you Oheli Torah
to #83, "Unvaccinated kids pose no danger to vaccinated kids", but actually THEY DO. Check the medicine before claiming things.
(11/2/2018 1:22:54 PM)
115
why is this being posted?
i personally dont think this should be publically posted. its the family's and schools buisness. no one elses
(11/2/2018 1:24:20 PM)
116
Crossed a line
A parent has a right to disagree with a school. Taking a school to court is a whole new level. The crosses a line on all levels and is not ok
(11/2/2018 1:31:16 PM)
117
Poor kids
I feel bad for the boy this is all about. Would the parents actually send him to the school if they do win the court case? This doesnt sound like a great recipe for social success
(11/2/2018 1:33:26 PM)
118
IRONY
Everything in life is a benefit versus risk balance. Parenting is a serious responsibility and no one takes it lightly. Every parent can decide what they feel is best for their child. But when your decision puts others in the community at a risk with no benefit, then it is no longer solely your decision to make.
Most parents dont enjoy vaccinating their kids and dont do it light heartedly. We do so understanding that our doctors and Rabbonim know more than us, and we do so once we are assured of its importance.
Countless posts have explained the concept of herd immunity and the fact that there are immuno compromised people out there who cannot be vaccinated or are still too young or are no longer immune.
With each additional healthy child that is not vaccinated the community at large as well as certain individuals are put at greater and greater risk of being exposed to deadly and dangerous illness.
In fact, anti vaxxers rely on all the rest of us who vaccinate our children, to protect their child. If there was no communal immunity, these parents would most likely think a lot longer and a lot harder before deciding not to vaccinate their child and putting them at what would then be a direct risk of contracting diseases such as polio, rubella, measles and mumps.
(Just to put it out there, how many of you anti vaxxers with bochurim in yeshiva at the time went running not walking to get the mumps vaccine when mumps was actually in your sons yeshiva??)
Thank you Oholei Torah for protecting our children and for staying strong against intimidation and aggression. Its reassuring to know that affluence and influence does not always get its way.
And thank you Dr Rosen, a true rofeh yedid, and Dr Gottesman, for fighting passionately to keep our community healthy and safe while still respecting and adressing individual needs and concerns!
(11/2/2018 1:41:22 PM)
119
a comment reader
why does everyone fell the need to make comparisons to the nazis? its quite disgusting.
(11/2/2018 1:44:10 PM)
120
The solution!!!!!!!!!
Doctor Paul Thomas( check yourself!!!) has e Very balanced opinion about vaccines, he says that u should them but in a safe schedule, meaning to give space between the shots.
He started that because many kids in his practice were developing autism.
AS SOON AS HE STARTED THE NEW SCHEDULE, the autism cases dramatically DECREASED!!!
SINCE THE REBBE RESPONDED ABOUT vaccines many new vaccines have been introduced in the medical world WITH WAY MORE TOXINS, CHECK yourself!!
Don't go to extremes!!! Vaccine ur kids with DOCTOR PAUL'S VACCINE SCHEDULE and protect them from autism!!!
(11/2/2018 1:55:07 PM)
121
To #103
I would feel bad if the family were only being attacked for not vaccinating but since they took it to court this becomes nasty business...
(11/2/2018 1:57:32 PM)
122
Bunch of ignorants!
All of these comments are out of control and all will give a big Din Vecheshbon to just slander this family!
A family full of Chessed non stop! Loving people that are only trying to protect their kids from this poison that the CDC are making on your back! Shame on you!
The laine family should continue all the way and not be ashamed from these disgusting comments that don't mean so much!
The Vaccines debate is not the topic now(even that non of you guys now jack about the whole sugya how many Gedolim are against it and many hold it's assur for a school to reject any kid bec of vaccination)
Hatslocho Ouberacha Mishpachas Laine may Hashem be with with you all your life and continue standing strong in your beliefs Amen.
May the Abishter forgive all these people that have the Chutspa of judging others and worts try to damage their amazing reputation!!
(11/2/2018 2:09:09 PM)
123
To # 101...
You are most certainly welcome to having your own opinions, however, the facts will remain unchanged regardless of how much you try to dismiss them as "conspiracy theories". As someone who happens to be both a scientific professional who understands the intricacies of this topic on an intrinsic level, as well as someone who has studied the economics of the drug industry for longer than I wish to admit to, I can tell you without question that the powers that be are leading the masses by the nose to the tune of almost $50 billion annually just in the U.S. alone. And yes, there are additional vaccines in the pipeline as we speak, which are being developed for further "inoculation" - I mean profit, purposes, waiting to be administered to those of feeble mind whom don't know any better.
For those whom cannot grasp the full scope of what is going on here, I would suggest starting off with taking a critical look at websites such as; learntherisk.org and documentaries such as "the truth about vaccines" - if you are in fact brave enough...
(11/2/2018 2:13:10 PM)
124
Donate
Where can we donate towards Oholei Torah's legal costs?
(11/2/2018 2:22:10 PM)
125
some basic points
Im not here to discuss the actual sides of the vaccine debate. Instead, Id like to highlight two very important points that have to be raised before even entering into the entire discussion. Without coming to a consensus on these two points, we cant even enter into any conversation; theres no safa meshutefes, no common language.

1)
How do we know anything? How do we decide what information is legitimate? How do we measure the validity of one piece of data over another? If a friend tells me about an anecdote they read in a book, is that as admissible into the debate as high powered statistical trials? If I read in a magazine about an experiment done in a lab somewhere by two researchers of dubious credentials, is that as admissible as a peer reviewed meta-analysis? If we cant agree on what counts as better or worse data, we will forever talk past each other.


You may say, I understand that one piece of data is in theory stronger than another, but isnt it possible the stronger data is confounded by conflicts of interest, usually financial? Thats possible, but how can someone only mistrust stronger data but accept weaker data as the truth, no questions asked? Thats a double standard, and intellectually dishonest.


2)
Not everything that sounds plausible is true. A sentence that sounds logical and cogent may not be true at all. This comes up all the time. Recently Ive seen sentences along the lines of the vaccine contains toxins that permanently weaken the immune system and also, when the toxins are shedded, they can weaken those around them. Although the sentence advances a theoretically plausible idea, it also so happens to have zero evidence backing it up and is inconsistent with current medical knowledge. This second point is of course closely tied in with the first point, of establishing your criteria for knowing things. Accepting that a sentence may sound plausible but have nothing to do with reality (as per the strongest evidence available) is a very important point in these conversations.


-To summarize, no statement is given validity based on its internal consistency. It has to be measured against available data; to do that, we have to agree on what counts are better data and worse data, in an intellectually honest way.


With regard to the actual vaccine debate, it goes without saying that all leading bodies of medicine and Halacha advocate for vaccination, with all of the strongest data and compelling Halachic principles behind them.
(11/2/2018 2:25:30 PM)
126
.to 96
I hate to say this, but let's put the discussion aside for a minute. Right or wrong, it doesn't matter. How can you bring in the Rebbe's opinion on this when you aree going against the Rebbe's opinion on Ahavas Yisroel. Did the Rebbe approve of bashing other yidden even if what they are doing is wrong??
Why COL posted this, I don't know, but what I do know is that as much as suing in court causes a chilul Hashem, this sinah towards another yid is causing a greater chillul Hashem
(11/2/2018 2:25:52 PM)
127
A child just died from this disease!!!
https://www.timesofisrael.com/toddler-dies-of-measles-in-jerusalem-in-first-such-incident-in-15-years/
(11/2/2018 2:27:18 PM)
128
WHat did they expect ?
Did they think the community was going to side with them ? Good for OT !
I dont know which religion they belong too but maybe they should read up on what the Rebbe said about vaccines.
(11/2/2018 2:29:13 PM)
129
Vaccine injury
Most of you posting have not had a child with vaccine injury, you seem so compassionate and concerned about others getting the mesals, do you realize how many people are vaccine injured?! If your first child had long term illness directly correlated with vaccinations you would understand why a parent think twice before vaccinating the their family. You too would beg your family to look deeper, read the side effects and allow room for choices. Vaccine injuries and deaths are more common then death from measles. But until it's your child you prob won't change your mind, you don't want to believe it's possible.... may hashem open your hearts to see the hidden truth before it C"V hits home. I don't blame you, I too was once confident in my choice of vaccinating... to those of you in the fence about be courageous, dig deeper. Think twice.... once it's done there is no going back.
(11/2/2018 2:31:29 PM)
130
measles are NOT dangerous,
since when measles became a dangerous disease??? All our parents and grand parents got measles and survived ! what a surprise !! but vaccines are good $$$$$$$. Follow the money and get educated ,....read books about the pros and cons about vaccines and decide what you want for your family.
(11/2/2018 2:48:41 PM)
131
Courage
Thank you laines for standing up. Public schools must accept religiuos exemption or it is discrimination. Private schools ( especially when taking gov. Funding) should need to as well. I personally have a booklet filled with sources in Jewish law talking about health and illness and issues with vaccines.
(11/2/2018 2:55:51 PM)
132
To #123
Got it. So because the drug companies make money on vaccines, therefore that means their only purpose in making and promoting them is to line their pockets.

The companies that make food also make profits therefrom. So it follows, by your "logic," that the industry has been keeping us in the dark - you don't really need food in order to live! - and that we should be looking at this with an open mind.

Try that, and let us know in a week or two how you fare. The rest of us, who aren't claiming bogus scientific and economic credentials, will continue eating to keep ourselves alive, and following the advice of our doctors as the Torah tells us to do.
(11/2/2018 3:04:22 PM)
133
Thank you 129!
And I want to add that all these people who are saying the shot are completely safe and "worth the risk" often feel completely different when it's a child that they LOVE who's life was stolen from them over a vaccine injury. When that child become s a completely different child over the course of the day it was administered like the McDowell triplets (hear their story on YouTube vaxxed TV) or a bit longer . Additionally none and I mean NONE of these people will be there for the family of the vaccine injured child. ALL the heartache and responsibility falls solely on the parents and immediate family. ALL the appointme ts to numerous specialists , the service providers , special schools in some cases , severe fatigue from loss of sleep often loss of income because some parents usually mothers find it impossible to work under such circumstances. If it's Hashems will everyone deserves the chance of the joys of raising their child with the health they were born with. No one's child is the property of the community ! Does the community have funds or help in anyway to your vaccine injured child? It's not selfish in fact it's human nature to base their child's medical decisions on the needs of their own children as opposed to someone else's . It's a mitzvah to have shabbos guests . How many of you are highly selective as to who sits at YOUR shabbos table. People tend to consider your family first in those situations before putting the people in the community who need a placement first. Yet you all expect people to consider the community first as to what they inject in their children when the consequences of that choice will not fall on YOU personally? I don't believe anyone should be involved in these decisions except the parents of the child! Call me selfish crazy a conspiracy loony tune . I have the joys if raising a non vaccine injured child and everyone deserves this.
(11/2/2018 3:05:18 PM)
134
The facts You decide!!!!
My 9 year old caught whooping Cough from a non vaccinated child. He stayed home for 2 weeks on antibiotic and was in pain coughing for 3 months.
All my children, my husband and myself had to be on 2 weeks of antibiotics
You decide if it was fair to my family!!!
(11/2/2018 3:17:42 PM)
135
Ohalei Torahs right
Thumbs up Ohalei Torah for Standing your grounds and doing whats right!!!
(11/2/2018 3:23:46 PM)
136
what is the problom?
what is the issue in halacha for taking a medicine?
(11/2/2018 3:29:15 PM)
137
E. Goldberg
I commend Oholei Torah for implementing and firmly enforcing a reasonable and important health policy in the best interest of the broader Ohelei Torah student body and Crown Heights community, and not succumbing to pressure from individual parents, regardless of their stature in the community or financial resources.

(11/2/2018 3:29:58 PM)
138
To #129-#131 and #133
#129 and #133: you know why most of us don't have children with vaccine injuries? Because they are extremely rare.

Do you think that normal parents, who vaccinate, care less about their children than you do? No, we care for ours at least as much as you do, but we recognize that the risks of not vaccinating, and having our children contract dangerous and perhaps even fatal diseases, outweigh the statistically insignificant possibilities of injuries from said vaccines. Not unlike the way we make sure to have our kids strapped in with seatbelts, even though there have been cases of injuries caused by them.

#130: well, yes, if they survived to become your parents and grandparents, then by definition they're not among the ones who were killed by childhood diseases such as measles. That's called survivorship bias. But your claim that it's not a dangerous disease would come as quite a surprise to the 150000+ people who died of it as recently as 2011, or the million or so per year who died of it in the 1800s and early 1900s.

#131: whatever your "sources in Jewish law" are, they're worthless to us as Lubavitcher Chassidim, where our Rebbe wrote numerous times (cited above in comments) that vaccination must be done. So no, there is no "religious" reason for the Laines to be doing what they're doing (not to mention: no "source in Jewish law" allows them to be going to arkaos shel goyim for this), and it is a busha v'cherpa for them to be misusing the good name of Torah and halachah in that way.
(11/2/2018 3:35:18 PM)
139
To 133
I know thousands of people who have taken vaccines, none of whom have been hurt by a vaccine. You rage about vaccine induced illnesses, but far more people win the lottery than are injured by vaccines.

On the other hand, the chance of having a serious illness after not vaccinating is very very real.

There is an enormous amount of arrogance in thinking that you are smarter than the entire medical establishment.

Have some humility and listen to the experts. That is what the Rebbe advised people to do all the time.
(11/2/2018 3:51:27 PM)
140
What a Chilul Hashem
Wish all schools would follow in Oholei Torahs footsteps. Shame on a frum couple who are misguided and putting not only their child, but opening up the risk for others. Some kids DEPEND on herd immunity. Talk to any Rav...all vax are allowed and even encouraged it could be pikuach nefesh. What are they waiting for the return of polio?
(11/2/2018 3:53:42 PM)
141
STOP
I'm the 136 comment and i haven't seen 1 comment that stops you guys. No matter how much the laine family is wrong you shouldn't be talking badly about them on a Jewish chabad website. The Rebbe was so against Loshon hara.
(11/2/2018 3:59:44 PM)
142
Please read
https://www.verywellhealth.com/who-is-at-risk-from-unvaccinated-kids-2634420
(11/2/2018 4:04:35 PM)
143
And Bais Rivkah??
They must have children in other crown heights schools too. Is the policy also similar across the board?
(11/2/2018 4:19:12 PM)
144
Wow
B"H I don't live in Crown Heights, you people are nuts. If someone doesn't like a certain school's policies, feel free to send your kid elsewhere or make your own school. It's been done before!
(11/3/2018 9:48:06 AM)
145
observer from london uk
I am pro vaccinating our children but anti Loshon horah. This is bringing out the worst in all of us let`s stop it NOW
(11/3/2018 6:08:18 PM)
146
An oholei Torah parent
Thank you OT for keeping my son safe.
(11/3/2018 6:28:12 PM)
147
To 138
"statistically insignificant possibilities of injuries "

So these vaccine injured children and their families are defined as "insignifiicant" . These precious vaccine injured children , children who were born healthy and now have chronic incurable health/psychosocial problems are hardly "insignificant" to their parents and their families. What a callous way to define a human being and and an insult to their caregivers .
(11/3/2018 6:33:21 PM)
148
freedom of choice, religion and speach!
I am pro choice!
and I support the Laines for fighting for their legal rights.
It is very dangerous when ppl make up laws and discriminate.

not to give a vaccine is natural. to put a toxin into your kids body and assume they will handle it and gain immunity, is not natural.
so the real question is, why do YOU vaccinate? have you done proper research, not just listen to the harping from the ppl gaining endless $$$$ for every vaccine you take?
if you do your proper research, and still choose to vaccinate, I respect that more than ppl ignorantly peppering what the CDC has to say, who are so biased and money hungry
(11/3/2018 7:10:50 PM)
149
Logical
ALL decisions have consequences . People can't be expected to make a decision for the sake of those who won't bear the responsibility or consequences of that decision.
(11/3/2018 7:13:35 PM)
150
Yankel
We really need moshiach now! Stop this loshan hara
(11/3/2018 7:13:43 PM)
151
Shocked!!
How low some of these comments are against people who are fighting for their child's health!!!
Sickening how narrow minded pro vaxxers can get!!!

Thank GD you did not experience or hear enough of those hurt from vaccinations. Every single anti vaxxer has done the research, most are very intelligent, caring people who think for themselves instead of conveniently going with the flow. Most of the pro vaxxers are not thinking it through deeply enough, or just get hysterical that someone didn't vaccinate. How can you force someone to inject what they firmly believe is hArmful to their child??
Of course our religion commands us to guard our health and their research has proven that this could be dangerous. Of course the diseases are dangerous too but to deliberately inject poison into a child can be a lot more frightening than some of these diseases that are usually not as harmful as they sound. And one is a deliberate action on the part of the parent while catching a disease is a questionable situation which we hope and pray doesn't happen but if it does, GD willed it that way.
Do not judge any parent that stands up for the right to not vaccinate. And if youre vaccinated stop treating them like they are carriers and contagious of every disease. Chances are they are overall healthier in many other areas than we are.
I personally admire those that stand firm as I totally buckle under the schools rules unwillingly.
Also...Rebbe said to look into the ingredients and companies etc....how many of us do that??
Just the anti vaxxers...
I find it sickening how we don't have the right to choose about vaccinating...and oh...another thing ..do you know that if anyone should report a horrible side effect of a vaccination the answer is: it's not listed as a side effect, it just happened at the same time ...
Hellllooooo. When will society realize something's gotta change. Preventing diseases is great but let's not completely ignore the other side....too many parents have seen direct damage and no doctor can convince them otherwise.
And let's also realize that there is corruption everywhere. Obviously the medical Dept. Will force the autism link to be retracted and take away his license...he has uncovered too much. No one wants these diseases back but parents need to think through this and schools and the law need to be more understanding.
(11/3/2018 7:19:03 PM)
152
STOP
I'm the 136 comment and i haven't seen 1 comment that stops you guys. No matter how much the laine family is wrong you shouldn't be talking badly about them on a Jewish chabad website. The Rebbe was so against Loshon hara.
(11/3/2018 7:22:15 PM)
153
An opportunity
For OT to tell the world that there is NO religious exemption in chabad to be anti vax because the Rebbe was pro vaccine and doctors
(11/3/2018 7:52:53 PM)
154
To #20
You need to be put in jail for even entertaining a ship of selfish delusional individuals who only care about their new religion of passionate antis. Awful beyond belief.
(11/3/2018 7:58:30 PM)
155
Unfair to babies
All children under a year are at serious risk when exposed to measles. Why should helpless infants have to be exposed to your non-vaccinated child? They aren't even old enough for us to vaccinate them!
(11/3/2018 8:12:05 PM)
156
Parents that found the truth!
This family is amazing!
Shame on all of you that are trying to discourage them!
Tha Vaccines are one big money making industry that are happy to see more and more people getting sick, you have to b blind not to get that!
It is something out of this world to see so many Yidden that are posting so many disgusting comments!
May Hashem have pitty on you!
Bec we don't know who you are when posting such comments doesn't give you the right to say such mean things!
The world is not Efker last time I checked!! Mamash a Bousha!!
This family full of Chessed and Kindness should pursue in what they believe and continue to bring Kedusha and be Megalé the Abishter in this world and all the rest of you,
YOU go find yourself another school if your not happy!
Hatslocho Oubracha!
(11/3/2018 8:13:13 PM)
157
Mom
I can understand people for being so upset and angered. Due to the parents who don't vaccinate; newborns and pregnant women and the like are at risk now for the measles. It's very scary.
(11/3/2018 8:20:51 PM)
158
Wondering
Why is anyone worried about the non immunised kids coming to the school, if youre kids are immunised you have nothing to worry about...
(11/3/2018 8:23:06 PM)
159
Crazy!!!
#62 agree!!! Well said!!
Agree with all of you who state disgusting to take OT to court!! Shame on you ... find another school who share your beliefs ( no matter how ridiculous you have that right to choose.) Or home school!!!! They shouldnt go to shul either!!!!
We are not GD but we must do what we must to protect our precious ones!!!!
(11/3/2018 8:24:44 PM)
160
Yeshiva policy is wrong
I don't believe for a mili second the Rebbe would have sanctioned a child's chinuch being placed on conditions .
(11/3/2018 8:45:36 PM)
161
If you don't believe in vaccines
Then don't go to a doctor if you ever break a bone or need surgery. Go to jenny mccarthy and maybe she will cure you with some herbs and ooom chakra oom voodoo witchcraft. For a small fee of course.
(11/3/2018 8:47:30 PM)
162
im confused
this family chooses to send their child to a particular religious institution, presumeably because they adhere to that religion and wish to have their child educated in that religious system. how then can they argue they have a religious exemption againt a policy that is held by the school? seems hypocritical, regardless of how much tzedaka they may, or may not give.

those who are immunized are 97% assured statisticly of not contracting the illness, however, there is a population in every community that is not immunized at all. very young children, people with certain allergies, people with weakened immune systems from other illnesses for example. they are protected by "the herd"getting vaccinated. unvaccinated people place these people at risk.
(11/3/2018 8:50:31 PM)
163
A plea from a Pittsburger and former-vaxer
Please stop the unbelievable sinas chinim and loshan hora at a time when we desperately need ahavas Yisroel. We need to agree to disagree in the areas of vaccines and politics.
(11/3/2018 9:09:20 PM)
164
The Torah gives permission for the Doctor to heal.
Vaccines are supposed to be given to healthy children. Except for those who have "Blind Faith" in vaccination; Let's examine honestly what vaccination is: It starts with the premise that Life and Death is random. Let's inject this potentially Deadly substance into your healthy child in order to prevent certain annoying diseases which in certain circumstances can lead to death.
As Jews we believe God is in control. On Yom Kippur we are sealed, who shall live, and who shall die... In our daily prayers we say, May it be Your will to protect me every day From... unnatural death, harsh diseases and misfortune...
Who or What do you believe in?
(11/3/2018 9:11:29 PM)
165
In response to those who ask about religous exemptions
If you check this link from your the CDC website, https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/downloads/appendices/B/excipient-table-2.pdf, look at the ingredients in vaccines.

For one, there are kashrus concerns. African green monkey cells.

Also, abortions are against halacha, and some vaccines have aborted fetal cells in them.

There are more reasons. Do your research. Dont believe everything everyone says.
(11/3/2018 9:33:08 PM)
166
Vaccines cause autism!!!!
Vaccines cause autism!!!
End of story all you people would rather have autistic kids without measles.... There's no limit to your blindnes
(11/3/2018 9:34:45 PM)
167
To #147
Learn to read, please. "Statistically insignificant" means exactly that - there's a very low chance of something happening. Not that if it does happen, it's insignificant to the person and to their family.

The callous person here is you, who deliberately misunderstands something like that to attack others, and who is using other people's suffering to push your warped and twisted agenda.
(11/3/2018 9:37:17 PM)
168
882ab
did the Rebbe ever say anything about vaccinations???? did I miss that being brought up? this is all so tragic. alot of points were brought up in this forum. we have to read all of this with alot of thought before bringing it to casual conversations. AGREE with #145 that alot of us are pro-vaccinate but we all have to be anti-loshon hora. very serious issue here, be cautious which direction it goes in. Halachas for loshon hora were not created for when people have no conflict, it was created for when there IS conflict and issues to guide us how to deal with it b'derech Torah u'mitzvos
(11/3/2018 9:38:00 PM)
169
We need to sign a petition for beth rivka
Beis rivka allows children whom were not vaccinated....
When they get a petition signed by parents they will change this
Lets get together and keep our children safe
Safe from diseases that can pass by and not affect our community.
PleAse!!!!
Lets not be selfish
Our kids need us to protect them. We send them to school, lets make sure they are sitting near someone who was vaccinated( the least we can do)
(11/3/2018 9:41:55 PM)
170
Reality check
For all those who say they wont let their kids go to a school with unvaccinated children, beis rivkah, lubavitch yeshiva, lubavitch yeshiva ocean parkway all accept religious exemptions and have unvaccinated kids in their schools.
(11/3/2018 9:52:37 PM)
171
ABUSE
I don't have the patience to read all the comments so it's possible someone already pointed this out; These parents are being abusive to their own child by not giving him the protection against this disease via a simple vaccination. Let the laines speak to some of the people, right here in Crown Heights who have to live their entire lives with a crippled arm or leg due to polio because they were unable to get a polio vaccine. All these people that don't vaccinate their children are playing a dangerous game at their childrens expense.. they have to be crazy to think - especially at this present time, that any judge will give them any justification.
(11/3/2018 10:03:46 PM)
172
Loshon hora?
The one who causes this are the parents who have no concern for others.WHen u go against a school and sue against the normal laws of a state YOU are the ones bringing on loshon hora. They want this.For their religious cause.Dont blame a community for what they did!!!
(11/3/2018 10:11:51 PM)
173
SOOO MANY COMMENTS - PROS & CONS...
NOBODY IN THEIR RIGHT MIND SHOULD AGREE WITH THESE NAIVE & SELFISH PARENTS.
I'm a Retired RN from a Third World Country, & witnessed too many deaths from Communicable Diseases.
For goodness sake, it's 2018...TG FOR IMMUNIZATIONS!
Everywhere in the world CHILDREN MUST BE IMMUNIZED in & up-to-date with them to be able to attend both Public & Private Schools.
The Mantra goes as such: "No Immunizations...Homeschool your children"!!!!! 😡😡
(11/3/2018 10:14:44 PM)
174
NCVIA
Research National Childhood Vaccine Injury Act
Unfourtanly vaccine injuries are common and real they range from mild to severe and life-threatening. There is a reason people questions vaccines. open your eyes...
(11/3/2018 10:31:08 PM)
175
Loshon hora?
The one who causes this are the parents who have no concern for others.WHen u go against a school and sue against the normal laws of a state YOU are the ones bringing on loshon hora. They want this.For their religious cause.Dont blame a community for what they did!!!
(11/3/2018 11:00:47 PM)
176
Healthy Kids
I chose not to vax when kids were young because I feared the risk of vaccine injury more than the diseases. They are kah so healthy. I don't think any of the 6 ever had an earache, for example. As they reach close to puberty I checked if they were immune to mumps and when they weren't I gave them mmr. Same for the girls re Rubella. WHY WON'T THE CDC DO A STUDY ON THE HEALTH OF UNVACCINATED CHILDREN, OR LATE VACCINATORS. we need to ask ourselves this uncomfortable question.
(11/3/2018 11:25:29 PM)
177
To 167
Low risk doesn't mean ANY risk. We will decide as the parents which risks to take or not for OUR children . As you decide which is best for YOURS
It will never ever be dictated by outsiders . Nobody's child is a "statistic".
(11/3/2018 11:30:33 PM)
178
Everything is from Hashem
We must keep our energy in holy matters in order to have a positive effect on everyone and everything around us. Be careful of what we say in front of our children so that we keep them from becoming judgmental. Youre all beautiful creations from Hashem and we each need to be open to being a vessel for shining his holy light. Lets stay focused on what really matters.
(11/4/2018 12:16:46 AM)
179
Don't call them Anti Vaxxers They should be called Vaccine Skeptics
Good for the parents, tyranny of the majority should not scare these parents. I myself am not vaccinated, and B"H I haven't gotten sick in years. You people who can't think alternatively from the mainstream are dummy's, and when you listen to whatever your doctor says without being semi skeptical, that's because your a dummy. That's all!
(11/4/2018 12:25:59 AM)
180
All bunch of judgemental people
These parents have the right to do what they want they have Emuna that the Abishter will make sick whoever she wants so why do we need these dumb vaccines to be injected in our kids and newborns!
All of you could scream Home school till tomm but they will win this court case and all of you pro vaxxers will home school your poisoned children if you want to!!
So many dissscusting comments that is imbarassing for his community shame on you people
This family has a lot of Koah and they should continue to fight this school till the end! They are helping the whole community to start thinking that maybe this money making vaccines buisness do not want our good!
Thank you for being the one that are standing opposite all these naive people you have Avraham Avinu on your side the same way he was from one side and the whole world was against him "Haivri" and at the end we see who was right, it's just while it's happening that we have doughts
So Yasher Koach to this family keep up the great work!
(11/4/2018 12:42:16 AM)
181
Religious exemption
Lots of States offer this option to parents - and hundreds of Lubavitcher kids can BH take advantage of it. If youre so afraid of your kid contracting a disease - keep your kid home.
I hope the Lsines win this case
(11/4/2018 5:35:25 AM)
182
#180
The only poison is the parents who would risk disease and plague in our community because of their antivaxx brainwashing
(11/4/2018 5:35:59 AM)
183
Dear #130
You are an embarrassment to my species.
Please explain how measles isnt dangerous to the 2.6 million people who died of it in 1980, the 545,000 who died in 1990, and the 73,000 who died in 2014.
(11/4/2018 6:49:29 AM)
184
To #177
That's fine, then. And we will not be dictated by you, who will sue our schools and engage in other such tactics to force them - and us - to accommodate your conspiracy theories and warped views.

You know, in exactly the same way as you have people calling for socialism because they've experienced the flaws of capitalism (and there are some, of course, as in any human-designed and -run system), where they might think differently if they did a little bit of reading of history, or had a short talk with an elder chossid or other person who lived under such a system -

- in exactly the same way, you and your fellow anti-vaxxers have grown up in a world where such diseases are, thank G-d, nowhere near the clear and present danger that they were before - this, due to widespread vaccination. That leads you to underestimate their dangers and focus only on the (rare) problems with vaccines. Learn a little history about these diseases and their tolls in death and disfigurement, or talk with some people who lived through such epidemics, or go visit places in the world where vaccination rates are low and parents live in fear of their children dying of so-called "minor childhood diseases" like measles, and you'll be singing a different tune.
(11/4/2018 6:56:46 AM)
185
Antivaxxers never mention the Rebbe
Because it is clear and beyond doubt the Rebbe supported vaccines and the medical community. Really makes me wonder what religion antivaxxers really believe, because it isn't Judaism. Well not Chabad Judaism anyway.

@180
With that line of reasoning, I'm guessing if your kids become sick you wouldn't give them antibiotics either.
(11/4/2018 7:29:53 AM)
186
Spotlight on Bais Rivkah & Lubavitch Yeshiva
Its carless and dangerous to allow unvaccinated kids into your schools. You must change your policy immediately!
(11/4/2018 8:16:04 AM)
187
Torah gives permissi
Vaccines are supposed to be given to healthy children. Except for those who have "Blind Faith" in vaccination; Let's examine honestly what vaccination is: It starts with the premise that Life and Death is random. Let's inject this potentially Deadly substance into your healthy child in order to prevent certain annoying diseases which in certain circumstances can lead to death.
As Jews we believe God is in control. On Yom Kippur we are sealed, who shall live, and who shall die... In our daily prayers we say, May it be Your will to protect me every day From... unnatural death, harsh diseases and misfortune...
Who or What do you believe in?
(11/4/2018 8:52:52 AM)
188
Measles
Are not dangerous for children. The death rate from measles BEFORE the vaccine came out was approx 3 in 10 thousand. The death and complocation rate from MMR as per vaccien court is far far more. Do your own research.
(11/4/2018 11:56:53 AM)
189
To #164/187
First of all, we don't have "blind faith" in vaccination; it's a treatment that has been proven to work, so we use it like any other natural keli for Hashem's berachah.

Next, no one is saying that "Life and Death is random"; it's in Hashem's hands, but again, we have to do our own hishtadlus.

Tell me: since on Yom Kippur it's determined how much money you will have for the year, does that mean that you don't have to go to work, because Hashem will provide you that money without effort on your part? Since on Yom Kippur it's determined who will live and who will die, then if you're sick, do you not take any treatments? Do you leave everything all up to Hashem's will, and sit back and do nothing b'derech hateva? Because that's not frumkeit, but krumkeit.
(11/4/2018 12:03:32 PM)
190
Measles
For those that claim that there is a problem with measles outbreak ,one minute I thought if you are immunenised you protected you can't get it anymore so what's the problem if you kids that are not immunized are together with those that are immunenised you won't be able to catch it. But if you are worried about it doesn't it show that you are not sure. When injecting the sickness in kids you have a bigger chance to contact the disease.
(11/4/2018 1:35:45 PM)
191
The silliest argument
For the laines position is "their emunah". I'm sure they are fine upstanding yidden and tremendous baalei emunah, however, I'm also willing to bet they have health and life insurance policies. That is proper hishtadlus. They are claiming that vaccinations are not proper hishtadlus. Your stat ment about their emuna is not just a straw man argument, it is downright foolish. It is beneath you.
(11/4/2018 3:03:50 PM)
192
To 190
Clearly you don't understand what 97 % effective means, nor do you understand the herd mentality concept regarding those in the general population who are unable ( NOT unwillng) to be vaccinated.

(11/4/2018 3:13:58 PM)
193
Sick
All those that are Anti Vaxxers: I couldn't care less if you will or never did vaccinate your child that's completely your business! But I find it horribly selfish that my kid will one day come home with a nasty illness! All thanks to YOU. Whatever you do affects your environment. People have to start realizing this!!!
(11/4/2018 3:30:29 PM)
194
Attn #83
I am also vaccinated against whooping cough a disease that was formerly eradicated disease. It has now resurfaced DUE TO IRRESPONSIBLE individuals who refuse to immunize their children, so while you didn't get it, I DID! I am a senior citizen who has NOT fully recovered. So get your facts straight. Perhaps your children "bounced back," but I haven't!!!
(11/4/2018 4:19:22 PM)
195
Sincerely would like to know the religious source
I have never heard of lubacitch rov who said not to vaccinate.

IS there one???
can we get an opposing article so i can learn the anti vax side????
(11/4/2018 4:34:43 PM)
196
194
The whooping cough bacteria seems to have mutated. Bacteria and virus can do this in response to vaccines and antibiotics. Two of my son's got the mumps and they had the MMR on the cdc schedule. The board of health told me at the time it was a mutant another strain. I hope you fully recover. Now you have life time immunity to the whooping cough as opposed to having to repeat the Dtap for life which many seniors haven't tolerated well.
(11/4/2018 5:16:45 PM)
197
Why is everyone so extreme
I have mixed feelings when it comes to vaccines. Its a risk when you vaccinate your children since theres a possibility they can develop any variety of neurological diseases or even get the disease itself from the vaccine. This tragically happens when the virus in some vaccines grow more Potent. The issue is not black and white.
(11/4/2018 5:31:39 PM)
198
To 197
That is an excellent excellent point
There is truly no way of knowing how the vaccine will effect the individual until it's actually injected. There is also bad lots fro shoddy manufacturing . Vaccines are manufactured in China. The over sight there is terrible and they are known to cut corners . In fact during Tishrei an article came up that exposed that MOST of honey manufactured in China actually wasn't pur or honey at all. In fact one brand wasn't honey all together it was maple syrup with sugar! One can only image If they are tampering with vaccine ingredants what can be. I think this in part explains the increasing and more fatal vaccine injuries year after year. Google any vaccine injury lawyer and click to cases they retrieved money for in compensation for their cliw ta and you all decide if vaccine Injury often chronic and untreatable is "rare" and worth the "risks"
(11/4/2018 6:08:40 PM)
199
Life is all about assessing risk
ANYTHING "can happen" at any time. You can c'v get run over by a carc walking to shul. You can get hit by a drunk driver on the highway. You can c'v choke the next time you eat or fall down the stair the next time you go downstairs. Yet, we engage in these activities numerous times daily.

Remove emotion from the conversation.
(11/4/2018 7:08:49 PM)
200
To clarify 164.
I was responding to 34 which says the Torah gives permission to the doctor to heal. Healing by definition is to help someone who's sick or injured. Vaccination is given to the HEALTHY.
If you say Ushemartem Es Nafshosehem, then you should worry about the kashrus and that you're causing a blemish in your body. Why are you allowed to vaccinate? A better analogy would be: It's like crossing a highway for fear of something that might be chasing you. The more times you do it, the greater the odds of getting hit. There are dead animals all over the highway.
As Jews we're givevn tools to conquer our fears. Tshuva, Teffilla and Tzedakah remove the evil decrees. May we merit the coming of Mashiach now! When there will be no more sickness.
(11/5/2018 8:45:21 AM)
201
To 200
You dont seem to understand how probability works. Given that there are the same conditions each time the highway is crossed, the probability of being hit is the same each time and does not increase with repetition.
(11/5/2018 2:21:01 PM)
202
Stop bringing Rebbe into your agenda's!!
This is simply sick to see so many times ppl bring something that the Rebbe answered to some Chassidim who asked about a specific immunization 40-30 years ago!! and all of a sudden this became written in gold and followed and referred to on so many occasions to fight anti-vaxers without any research into the vax schedule of those times, the manufacturers, ingredients, weather or not there were combo vaccines at that time etc. And yet ppl can't get over the fact that someone who did so the research and discovered a hug3 change that took place within these 40-30 years in all discussed areas regarsing the vaccine, decide NOT to vax.
But when there are sicha after sicha, letters uppon letters which pile up into volumes where the same Rebbe asks the chasidim NOT to teach English and science and goishkeit to children (boys and girls) at least till the age of 12-13, you can count on your one hand how many schools in crown heights are Al Hataras Hakodesh, and how many ppl are careful about none kosher animals, and how important for them secular education..... The same ppl who takes their times into posting such patriotic posts to the Rebbe "views" on vaccines, do they keep up to the Rebbes views pertaining to Chinuch Al Taharas Hakodesh?!
(11/5/2018 2:57:22 PM)
203
To 200
I've read nearly all the comments here and that one is the most nonsensical of all.
I can't believe that something so opposed to everything the Rebbe wrote and basic Sechel too is being written here.
(11/5/2018 3:46:59 PM)
204
Menchlichkeit
I think every single individuals opinion matters. I think it matters that we were all created with the capability to use our minds and think for ourselves. I think it matters, that as Jews, we have freedom of choice. I think It matters whether people speak up or not. Most importantly though, I think that how we treat each other, matters most.

In the graduate school for my profession, One of the main things that we learned is how to respect each other in public and reconcile our differences in private. It is a message that every single individual in Crown Heights, that posted a comment on the community news platform, must learn.

The article that was posted elicited many comments that are not only a Chilul Hashem, because they present a separated front, but because they are hurtful. Regardless of whether you are pro vaccines or against vaccines, you do not have a right to hurt someone while voicing your opinion. Yes, we were all created with a brain. Yes, we were all created with opinions. yes, We should ALWAYS look out for the safety and health of our children. But we must also treat others with kindness, respect and dignity. And under no circumstance should that value be compromised.

I do not agree with those that do not vaccinate, and I am one of those that does not believe that vaccines cause autism. Yet I respect those that think for themselves, and create their own opinions.

Those that to not believe in vaccines are not bad people for believing so. They are not bad people because their opinions are different than yours. They are not bad people because they will fight to their death for something YOU dont agree with. They are not bad people. They are people with an opinion. An opinion that matters. Just like yours. So if your opinion is different. If you want to fight to your death for your childrens health. You are not a bad person. You are a person that matters. It matters that you do not agree with the means that they went about to advocate for their and their childrens needs. It matters that you want to share that. It matters that YOU want to take all measures possible to protect your child. And you should. You deserve it. You are entitled to it. Because You matter. So does the way you express it. It matters. Find your voice and fill the silence. But while doing so, dont step on others.

They are human. You are human. They matter. You matter. Their opinion matters. Your opinion matters. Their thoughts matter. Your thoughts matter. Their actions matter. Your actions matter. Their words matter. But so do yours.
(11/5/2018 4:48:46 PM)
205
Frivolous Suit
B"H, the Laines have no chance of winning. Oholei Torah is a private school and has the right to accept or reject whomever it wants. Kol hakavod to Oholei Torah for standing strong to protect our precious children's health, in accordance with the directives of the Rebbe!
(11/5/2018 5:32:18 PM)
206
To 202
Perhaps people looked into the new English and science curriculum which is very different to the one the Rebbe was against, and have decided that it is therefore fine to teach it to kids?

The Rebbe's views on medicine were always based on the views of the medical community, which is as supportive of vaccines now as they were then.

Your reasoning for abandoning the Rebbe's absolutely clear advice regarding vaccines is completely wrong.
(11/5/2018 5:59:32 PM)
207
202 to 204
Secular studies didn't change, ingredients and the schedule of the vaccines changes drastically. If you do see it, it's an indicator that you didn't do your research.

When I was a kid I got 8 vaccines till the age of 5, each were given only separately, only when I completely healthy and didn't have any cold, flu, etc. For the past month, and I was monitored for the other 2 months regarding my reactions etc.

My first kids got 53 vaccens by the age of 5!! You see the difference?! And many of them were combos- 3-8 vaccens in one shot?!! This was not the case when ppl asked the Rebbe about vaccens
(11/5/2018 9:38:59 PM)
208
To # 83
If your children only coughed for a week they probably didn't have whooping cough, they probably had croup. A Nick name for whooping cough is the 100 day cough. When I caught whooping cough from my neighbors unvaccinated kids, I coughed for months. I had to carry bags around with me because the coughing caused me to vomit constantly. I missed months of work and until today I am dealing with the permanent health issues caused by the whooping cough.
(11/5/2018 10:57:33 PM)
209
What does the Crown Heights Beis DIn
say about vaccinations?
(11/6/2018 8:49:53 AM)
210
To #207
You must be kidding. Colleges today are basically trade schools. Unless you're living on campus in Berkeley, colleges today look nothing like those of the 1950's and 1960's. Look at the Rebbe's sichos against college from the 1950's where he describes colleges and the dangers to the yiddishe neshomo and compare that to your run of the mill college of today. Academics lament the dumming down of today's colleges where students come to get a specific degree and move on in life.
(11/6/2018 3:51:47 PM)
211
vaccina?
there are manyl who use alternatiVe medicine for so many many things(without vaccini NATION. AM SURE THERE MUST b SOMETHING FROM ALTERNATIVE TO HELP US ALL
(11/7/2018 12:31:48 AM)
212
thank you #207!
Thank you #207. The world has gone mad, blindly trusting the masses without even reading any information about the real dangers of vaccines.
If you want to learn more, please read newly published bestseller "How to end the autism epidemic" by JB Handley.
(11/9/2018 7:56:09 AM)
213
to #60
Are you serious? Are you actually saying that children are EMOTIONALLY DAMAGED BY NEEDLES!!! Give me a break. Kids don't like vaccinations because they hurt. They cry for a few minutes at most, then they get a sticker, and they feel better about the scary needle by the time they get home. You call that emotional damage? Besides, it goes without saying that children are hurt much more by devastating diseases such as measles, mumps, rubella...all of which can be prevented by the big, scary needle that your child won't even remember by the next day.
(11/14/2018 5:08:30 PM)
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