Aug 8, 2017
Judging Our Judging Standards

From the COLlive inbox: Schools' judgement of parents' standards is often based on sketchy observations, unintentional misunderstandings, distorted hearsay, and untrue gossip.

Every year, as the summer sun reveals herself and beats down upon us, the essential matter of tznius - the unequivocal hallmark of a frum, Jewish woman - is discussed, encouraged, and demanded by our leaders and fellow community members. Tznius has kept our nation pure and exalted for generations.

What is undebatable is that specific tznius standards are debatable. While there are clear general requirements, frum communities set detailed standards for their members based on the times and circumstance resulting in varying expectations based on location, generation, and persuasion.

Schools’ Standard of Standards

And then, there are the educational institutions that establish tznius-based criteria for acceptance of children into their schools. Standards - not for the children enrolled in the school - but for the mothers of these children.

In a free country and market, schools have the right to create and enforce rules and parents have the ability to choose where to send their children. And, to be fair, the imposition of tznius standards on mothers of children is quite logical; ensuring the child observes consistent styles at both school and home.

However, while the enforcement of a student's tznius style can be easily imposed from within the classroom, determining whether a child’s mother maintains the required standards is often based on sketchy observations, unintentional misunderstandings, hazy perceptions, distorted hearsay, and untrue gossip.

In short, the school’s administration employs assumptions and glorifies judgmentalism as the mechanism of implementing the key filter meant to set the course and tone of their school; an institution which they are confident will be a cut above the rest.

One can certainly wonder how this judgmental and elitist ‘tone from the top’ trickles down to the staff, teachers, and ultimately, students of the institution.

The broader issue, though, is that these administrators, who surely have the purest intentions at heart, fail to realize the potential pitfalls of their approach. The problem here is not the imposition of tznius standards but the process and method of determining which women adhere to them; the passing of judgment on others.

A Tale of Five Women

At the risk of sharing loshon horah, the following scandalous gossip was heard being shared among a group of close yentas:

Note: Due to the sensitive nature of the matter, the names and details of the women involved have been changed to protect them and their children - who still hope to be accepted by certain local schools.

“Shprintza told me she saw Rachel by the Brooklyn Museum’s water fountain kissing a boy. Oy, what a shandeh…”

“If you think that is bad, did you hear about of Ani Pells, a woman from our community, who was seen sitting on the porch of her bungalow with her tichel half off her head? I mean, she knew a group of men would be walking by right then and had no shame. A busha!!”

“And did you hear about Chana who, I hear, has become an alcoholic? I shudder to think what kind of home she runs...”

“Let’s talk in a whisper now. Hush… I heard through the grapevine that a particular woman, I think her name is Tamar, has mamesh gone off the derech. She was seen on a street corner selling herself… Oy, what t’zores in Klal Yisroel…”

“Yenti, it's so sad, but Chava has gone off the deep end. She wears such skimpy clothes; she’s practically walking around naked!”

Exposing the Women

Do the daughters of these “rotten” women have a chance of being admitted into the local school?

I hope they do! In fact, if these women's children would not be accepted we would not have a Jewish nation today.

It’s time to pull down the curtain on these women. We have:

Rochel - our foremother - who kissed Yaakov at the well (Bereishis 29:11).
On Ben Peles’ wife - who saved her husband from Korach’s clutches (BaMidbar Rabbah 18:20).
Chana - the mother of Shmuel Ha’Navi (Shmuel I 1:13).
Tamar - who seduced Yehuda, a union which Moshiach descends from (Bereishis 38:14).
Chava - the mother of mankind (Bereishis 3:7).

Each woman had her personal reasons based on the time and need and each was righteous and is venerated. On Ben Peles’ wife is regarded as the model wife on whom is attributed the often-quoted accolade: The wisest of women, each one built her house (Mishlei 14:1).

Each of these women was judged solely by the ultimate judge, Hashem, and so should every woman.

The same is true with the Sota, a woman accused of engaging in promiscuous activities, who is only judged by Hashem - not an anonymous Vaad - via the bitter potion. And, when all goes well, she is promised wonderful children (Bamidbar 5:28 Rashi); children who, I hope, would be accepted into the local school - despite the rumors.

It is telling that whenever men attempted to pass judgment on “rotten” women - as Yehuda attempted with Tamar and as Eli Ha’Kohen did with Chana - they quickly found that they were in way over their head and immediately regretted it. When Moshe Rabbeinu passed judgment on women’s tznius standards with regards to their mirrors, Hashem immediately corrected him and had those precious mirrors prominently integrated into the kiyor (Shemos 38:8 Rashi).

Some of these examples are, admittedly, extreme for the sake of highlighting the larger point. In the context of our realities, we’re talking about much narrower and subtle distinctions - a woman whose sheitel is an inch above or below her shoulders; makeup that “draws too much attention” versus a more “neutral” palette.

Should a child’s chinuch and future be determined based on a school administrator’s perception of her mother? If our forefathers utilized this approach, where would we be today? If we continue employing such methods, where will we be tomorrow?

None of this should cause anyone, Heaven forbid, to decrease their standards even an iota. On the contrary, every woman must do her job at glorifying herself and our nation by being modest and dignified.

And, school administrators should continue to perform their noble mission of focusing on the children - the future mothers; raising our next generation of yiddishe neshamas and uplifting them by infusing them with positive love and acceptance - not elitism and judgmentalism.

One can never know which special daughter will be the mother of royalty.

Most Read Most Comments

Opinions and Comments
they ask references
Some of those schools call references before accepting a girl to see if her mother is always as tznius as she was at the interview. We also call references for shidduchim and for hiring people and for potential tenants so I am not sure why this is any less fair.
(8/8/2017 8:07:18 PM)
Not my favorite but thought provoking
(8/8/2017 8:13:45 PM)
The examples brought from Tanach were completely distorted in this article and taken out of context. Frum parents want their children to be raised surrounded by frum kids. Stop blaming schools and others, and look at yourself the way you dress and stop justifying wrongdoing!
(8/8/2017 8:13:50 PM)
A wonderful polite respectful way for a parent to tell schools administrators rules regulations and policies = mind your own business, don't judge me, don't make my daughter pay for my behavior.
Looking forward reading future comments.
(8/8/2017 8:23:27 PM)
I strongly suport the last paragraph its all in the first and second paragraph. G d bless crown hights. I love it
(8/8/2017 8:28:00 PM)
but this is a ridiculous article.
(8/8/2017 8:32:29 PM)
You are crazy
To tell a school that they can't ask that a mother not sell herself because of Tamar?! Crazy
(8/8/2017 8:51:39 PM)
Judging or just noticing?
No one accuses people of being "judge-y" if they point out, "Hey, there's something stuck to your shoe." Or, "You just had a hamburger 5 hours ago.. you can't have a latte yet!" Or, "Did you remember to bentch?" In those cases, the person might say, "Oops! Thank you so much..."
But tznius stands alone. No one appreciates any comment or reminder about it. Now we all have to walk around pretending there are no objective tznius standards... just to be considered non-judgmental, which is the new gold standard of behavior. Personally, I try to lead by example and daven. Nothing else seems to be working.
(8/8/2017 8:54:32 PM)
well done!
(8/8/2017 8:55:26 PM)
our forefathers were tzadikim, we cannot look at their actions superficially!
this sounds like what happened in the era of the shoftim - each man did what was right in his eyes. Torah says this did not work. being judgemental may not be the answer - but neither is no setting standards.
(8/8/2017 9:02:10 PM)
Brilliant Perspective
Someone give the author a medal. Finally, someone who thinks outside the box. Now, if one the administrator (you know who) would listen. Some people think they know everything about everyone - but they indeed often get it wrong. Too many precious neshamas are thrown out due to judging and misjudging.
(8/8/2017 9:08:11 PM)
somwthing must be done!!
this needs to be taken care of. thank you to the author
(8/8/2017 9:14:38 PM)
It's simple, people: Dan lekav zechus and al todin es chavercha. Don't judge others you think you know but don't. This is what we learn from the avos. Miriam judged Moshe and she got tzaraas. Stop judging!
(8/8/2017 9:15:14 PM)
beautifully written! !!!!
Well expressed! !! Unbelievable, connecting the great women in klal Yisroel to today's times!!!! Mamash beautiful! !!
(8/8/2017 9:29:27 PM)
Yaakov kissed Rachel - not the other way around.
(8/8/2017 9:39:49 PM)
To the writer
I think the point of your article was the last two paragraphs. That "you never know who will come out from a 'bad' mother/family" and therefore schools should accept all children and not filter anyone out.

The rest of your article was a little weird/strange (IMO completely off target) and too distracting from you main point.
(8/8/2017 9:44:20 PM)
Way off
Except in these examples the Torah clearly writes that each of their actions was lsheim shamayim without any ulterior motives. Please tell me which women dress untznius lsheim shamayim?
(8/8/2017 9:51:06 PM)
What's great about this piece is that everyone will take out of it whatever they connect with. Those who read it carefully will understand the point clearly. And, those who read it quickly and superficially will miss the point entirely. Very cool and refreshing literary work.
(8/8/2017 9:59:28 PM)
the people who are expressing the author is way off
It's time to wake up and see with your spiritual glasses. Peoplehave to stop judging children ( or even adults) till you know the FULL story. Our great women in klal Yisroel, NOT ONE SCHOOL would have accepted their cHildren or accepted them as in - laws for the deeds they were involved in or committed. Now today we do not have such great women's but that doesn't mean the children have to suffer. ...
(8/8/2017 10:14:36 PM)
The shoe is on the other foot, baby
Seems to me that the only judging being done in this article is against frum people or Torah standards. But isn't that the way of the 'tolerant' world now? And we've become juust like them. Let's talk about 'judgemental' shall we? Let's see if it's the frum people who are the ones who are so shamelessly hurtful and judgmental as they are labeled to be or if it's some yuppies and the Jews who spire to be like them. Take a stroll up and down this neighborhood and see who has the pleasant open face or is harmlessly minding their own business, as opposed to who is glaring into middle distance, looking arrogant for no apparent reason and making it seem like the clouds just covered the sunshine of your day- And yet these very same people who will suddenly find their social skills when the 'right' type of person walks past them. Now that's what I call- Judgemental.
(8/8/2017 10:43:24 PM)
Deeply flawed
Where this article becomes dangerously distorted is in taking the actions of men and women who were tzadikim, most with ruach hakodesh and some who were actual prophets, whose actions were for done for deeply spiritual causes with far reaching effects that would influence the destiny of our nation and the ultimate redemption of the world... and somehow making that a parallel with and comparing it to dressing and behaving provocatively on Kingston ave just because one feels like it.. Now, to each his own, I am not a school administrator and wouldn't tell anyone what to do.. but the comparison is misleading and could have a profoundly negative affect on young, impressionable, or ignorant minds. (I do agree though with the other point that lashon harah and unverified babble is the worst way to gain true knowledge of any human being).
(8/8/2017 11:02:32 PM)
Real Chasidim of the Rebbe
We really know that our Tznius needs to be corrected . Our laxitivity is inexcusable. What we tolerate from Balei Teshuva has become the basic standard. As soon as someone brings up the Halacha don't become judge mental. If a Rav Rolf you something is Borer Ribbis would you scream judgmental. This is no difference!!!!!
(8/8/2017 11:07:20 PM)
Yes, there are unique stories in Torah of Tzadikim and Tzidkonios where things were not as they seemed.
But these are the exception, not the rule; the rule is that what is wrong is wrong and one is held accountable. A woman seen dressed not tzniusdig is no longer trusted Halachically, loses her kesuba rights, and more repercussions.
Let us stop hiding behind holy ideas to excuse our shortcomings. We all have nisyonos. And the first step to growth is honesty.
(8/9/2017 12:08:26 AM)
Our Community
Yemin Mikareves .. with all the rules. schools need to consider how they can improve the Rebbes wishes in a yemin mikareves way. When was the last gathering for parents done with Ahava besides for speeches..
(8/9/2017 12:55:30 AM)
I, yes this shmo leaving an anonymous comment agree
WITH the comments bashing the article as well as with the article itself.
And side note it was well written.
Less of a side note- It was Yaakov who kissed Rochel not the other way around.
(8/9/2017 2:41:35 AM)
We were blessed with Halacha and we have clear black and white rules. We don't have to be creative with situations.
Our righteous forefathers and mothers did not have straight up Halacha to keep.
(8/9/2017 2:47:44 AM)
As it says éãéòú äîçìä çöé øôåàä äéà
(8/9/2017 3:00:19 AM)
To #22: What we tolerate from BTs?!
Were we - the FFBs - only to be as holy as the BTs. We can learn a lot from them! ëìê îìùåï äøò to say that the BT community is negatively influencing us!
(8/9/2017 3:56:16 AM)
to #22
you say"what we tolerate from baalei tedhuva has become the basic standard"
THAT is pure ignorance & judgemental arrogance & goes directly against what the Rebbe says about baalei teshuva
shameful lishen hara.
everyone walking around untsnius is a baal teshuva?? wake up!
(8/9/2017 4:54:42 AM)
G-d bless the commentators on COL each and everyone, i loved the article, i find it amazing and amusing how people can read something and be so obsessed with the details that they miss the entire point of the article.. keep the comments coming, they literally make me LOL
(8/9/2017 5:19:22 AM)
All Jewish children deserve a full jewish education!!!!Absolute!
(8/9/2017 5:30:24 AM)
Indeed, let's lead by example, and stop judging amongst our elite culture (religious) clubs. Let's employ the winning "Chabad House" method, within our communities, and we'll all benefit.
(8/9/2017 5:34:49 AM)
Pro Tznius
This oped is pro Tznius and anti judging. Spot on. We have become so disillusioned that we judge people based on the hat they wear (reminds me of that sad joke of moshiach coming to different communities with different hats - such as a shtreimel in Lakewood- and no one accepts him). We would not want to be mechutanim with a Lavan or a Terach, yet the greatest people came from them. Stop looking at the parents and focus on the children. Schools are where children, not parents, are molded. If a mother's sheitel is an inch above the shoulder is her daughter worthless? If the administrator assumes that the parents are probably chilled because their cousins are should a girl be rejected? Come on... Thanks for posting.
(8/9/2017 6:11:13 AM)
"What is undebatable is that specific tznius standards are debatable."

Now that statement is debatable. Wait, that's what was written. Or is it? Like everything else written here, it's worth a second read. Genius.
(8/9/2017 6:41:27 AM)
to #19
Time to grow up. Anyone is free to start a school that suits their fancy. It is probably cheaper and easier, however, to have your skirts lengthened.
(8/9/2017 7:30:51 AM)
You just don't know....
Administrators, you just don't know what is going on by yenem. You don't know how much they have in their bank account, nor where they are holding religiously, nor what they had for supper last night. You think you know but you just don't. That's the point here.

As it says in seforim, those who judge others down here will be judged and scrutinized up there. Rabbi Administrator, are you good with that? Believe me, you don't want to be scrutinized up above. You are not perfect, far from it....

Take this oped to heart -- for the sake the the kinderlach. Stop assuming, stop judging, stop imposing, and star paying attention to those you CAN influence and be mechanech.
(8/9/2017 7:32:19 AM)
to #7
"Some of these examples are, admittedly, extreme for the sake of highlighting the larger point. In the context of our realities, we’re talking about much narrower and subtle distinctions - a woman whose sheitel is an inch above or below her shoulders; makeup that “draws too much attention” versus a more “neutral” palette."
(8/9/2017 8:19:02 AM)
to the #6 comment
How insightful. Care to elaborate? Or is it just that you haven't thought of things this way before and are shell shocked that there is a different perspective?

Have you ever considered the point that EVERY TIME in the Torah that men judged women they were proven to be wrong?? Have you not heard of the concept of 'ma'ase avos siman la'bonim' - we are meant to use our avos as learning examples? Do you not realize that the author makes it clear in the beginning middle and end that tznius is so important and that each example of the avos were unique and necessary based on time and circumstance?
Do you not realize that this is not a tznius article, it is a judgmentalism article? It's amazing how shallow some people in the community are. No wonder we are still dealing with these issues...
(8/9/2017 8:33:30 AM)
great article
I see most people are missing the point. We shouldnt create our standards based on judgement. Well written and thoughtful
(8/9/2017 8:48:23 AM)
Beautifully written! Why didn't you sign your name?
The author is clearly saying tznius should be upheld, yet people shouldn't judge others. Schools should have their rules (whether they are beyond the letter of the law or not - they should just teach the students what is actual halacha and what is a school uniform rule), but shouldn't judge children by their mother's standards - because that is also anti-halacha. "Al tadin et chavercha...." No one is ever in anyone else's shoes, so the Torah clearly says don't judge.
The point of the article is not to judge.
May all of klal Yisrael be judged for a good year bg"ur - by the One and Only true Judge.
yehudis leiter
(8/9/2017 8:58:57 AM)
to #40
The schools have to make a judgment call, the same way that you have to make a judgment call when you choose a shidduch for you child or hire an employee. They may not be saying that the child is bad or incapable of being frum enough; they are saying that they refuse to accept a child of a mother who does not observe their tznius standards, regardless of how special or holy the child is. How is that passing judgment, any more than the person giving your child a driving test is passing judgment on his ability to drive?
(8/9/2017 9:18:55 AM)
to #41
Following your logic, would it make sense that the DMV would deny your daughter a driver's license because you - her mother - recently got a speeding ticket??

Or worse, because your cousin once got a speeding ticket and therefore you - the mother - is probably not a good driving role model and therefore the daughter will be denied a license.

This would be an outrage, no?

Actually, THIS is what happens in *certain schools* in the community! A girl's mother's relative dresses immodestly. Ergo, the mother is 'probably' the same, ergo the daughter is rejected from the school.

And that, my friend, is the point of this oped...
(8/9/2017 9:31:06 AM)
Old Timer
Everyone should listen to the Rebbe's Sicho of Chof Av Tof shin chof Ches. About veshinantom levonecho and ledaber bom. And assimilate it into daily life.
(8/9/2017 10:39:49 AM)
I hear you point that many times the administrations perception can be off.
However as you yourself say in this well written article the children need consistency therefore in order to educate the child the parents must hold to those standards
So what are you suggesting ? What should the schools do?
àéï ìãéï àìà îä ùòéðéå øåàåú
To me it's nothing to do with being judgemental the schools though will only take children they believe they can successfully educate
(8/9/2017 11:29:16 AM)
Those who care to disregard the halachas of tzneeus constantly bash the messengers, the concept of standards,consequences and our mesorah it self. This is very juvenile behavior. It's also immature to think that a mother's lack of tzneeus won't have a deep,deep impact on her daughter's yiras shmayim and therefore success in a chasidishe school.
(8/9/2017 11:30:49 AM)
Instead of blaming the schools for having standards,why don't the mothers look at themselves and see what's missing. Oh no,that would be hard.
(8/9/2017 11:36:52 AM)
No, my dear, very often the mothers are not missing anything. It is the school administrator who often *assumes* something is missing due to faulty information and assumptions. Why is it so hard to understand the basic point?? No one is bashing tznius. No one is bashing schools and standards. What is being bashed is the 'all-knowing' elitist and judgmental attitude of some (actually, just one) administrator(s).
(8/9/2017 11:57:28 AM)
To #38
Every single time? Really? So you're telling us that Eliyahu was wrong when he condemned Izevel, Yehoyada the Kohen Gadol was wrong when he did the same about Asalyah, Yeshaya was wrong in his nevuah about the improper behavior of the women of Yerushalayim...?!
(8/9/2017 11:59:40 AM)
To #41
You misunderstood the oped. Additionally, the analogy from the speeding ticket is absurd. The analogous that would logically follow is that the mother understands that dressing untznius is wrong and would never impose such behavior on her daughter - as no mother would encourage he daughter to speed. But that is simply not the case. Women who don dress tznius, do not believe in the importance of tznius. (And don't tell me that it's a hard nisayon- that's a kid argument)
To the author of the article: the logic of the article seems inconsistent and resembles a teenagers rant. Let me explain: the author writes "the imposition of tznius standards on mothers of children is quite logical; ensuring the child observes consistent styles at both school and home.". Then the author concludes the article saying that all women who may of indeed done something wrong (Yehuda DID sin with tamar) nevertheless had good children, thus negating the above quoted statement.
(8/9/2017 12:06:24 PM)
You have a choice:
Either send your children to another school or (if you care that much for THIS specific school) abide by their rules. It's as simple as that!
(8/9/2017 12:07:04 PM)
quite true as we know
it's says in the code of laws,generally, a tzinus person can be trusted, l know for a fact that people tend to twist things to suited themselves, if this is so then we know to be on guard, because a person who couldn't care less about tzinus is in a spot for being not trustworthy,no one likes to be jip
(8/9/2017 12:10:40 PM)
Parents have to know that they way they act will affect their children s future.
Schools, shidduchim...
Can,t expect to act like a teenager and want your kids to run a normal life.
(8/9/2017 12:20:23 PM)
Liked this article great perspectives to think about
Crown Heights should be the highest of standerts. How we have been taught by our Rebbe we are also Shluchim and that means that we need to except others that are holding on lower standerts, nothing else we should have comeplete love and understanding of there struggle, once you get there, you will be able to influence another.
(8/9/2017 1:33:41 PM)
very well written
love it
(8/9/2017 1:55:48 PM)
To #52
Really great point but until you're in a situation that causes you and your children's lives to be dysfunctional beyond your control never judge that the path someone is taking is what they even want, it's sad, and even a situation that seems similar can be very different.
(8/9/2017 2:02:54 PM)
To #51
Or maybe the one dressing tznius is really fooling you and are not what they appear to be. Are those not the best con artists?
(8/9/2017 2:05:28 PM)
don't judge
Not only should children be given a chance regardless of their parents ,a woman who is not up to a standard could have overcome the most and have good children!
(8/9/2017 2:20:36 PM)
About Time
Its about time someone smart stood up expressed what should be an obvious concept. Don't judge others. You don't know what's really going on in someone else's life, where they're from, where they're going, and what's doing with them now. Don't punish children by what you think is going on with the parents. By all means, have standards in your school for your students and enforce them strictly. but stop trying to nosy around the parents. Toda lecha!
(8/9/2017 2:44:35 PM)
one thing that everyone is forgetting
Most RW Orthodox communities have even broader restrictions on what parents can or can not do, in order to send their children to the schools. These restrictions are often regarding the type of phones that the parents have, if there is internet in the house, and the presence on the home of any secular reading material. In some Chassidishe communities, even the car undergoes scrutiny. All of this is to prevent these families from lowering their standards and the carrot on the end of the stick is school acceptance.
(8/9/2017 3:32:19 PM)
I did not read any of the comments what I could say is what I hear from a lot of Shluchim A lot of the parents came around because of the children if the children are taught right they will bring the spark back into the home
(8/9/2017 3:41:58 PM)
Ba'al Tosif
Chazal bring down that tzinius applies to men’s clothing along with women’s lvush…e.g.

•In Yoma (35b), Rav Elazar’s chevrah would not permit him to wear a finely-woven bekishe because it was too sheer and his form was visible through the translucent material;

•In Shabbos (114a), clothes are referred to as, ” the things that honor a person” and chazal bring down that it’s considered shameful for a talmid chacham to wear stained or patched clothing, as such are beneath his dignity (Note: by that standard the lvush worn by kolel yungerleit in many kollels is a massive “tzinius” issue). Likewise a neatly kept beard is fine but its not meant to look like a habitat for endangered species or a broom stuck to the chin…

•Also in Shabbos, (113a), we are told that it is unseemly for a person to be overly concerned with fashion, except in the case of special lvush for Shabbos when such a fashion sense is an appropriate way of showing kavod for Shabbos kodesh

Bottom line: (as the Dems would say) Stop the war on women (at least in relation to clothing and hairstyles)
(8/9/2017 6:43:12 PM)
to 49
that is one hundred percent not true,
just because someone is not tznius
doesn't mean she doesn't believe in it!
(and i will tell you that its a hard nisayon
cuz it is!)
(8/9/2017 7:48:08 PM)
Don't get it
Yes gossip is unacceptable and happens WAY too often in the lubavitch community... But have a feeling the writer has some ulterior motives here.
(8/9/2017 8:25:59 PM)
Best article on this topic so far
I think we can expect a tznius article once a month now with a different twist to it and hundred comments
(8/9/2017 9:02:55 PM)
We are a school that stresses tznius. Parents are free to go elsewhere. But be aware that children see thru hypocrisy. You can't teach one thing and act or dress another way. Mothers and staff alike have to set an example. I am very clear when interviewing prospective parents so no surprises later
(8/9/2017 9:45:54 PM)
I disagree
As an outsider from a diff community.. this article sounds very nice but you're not realizing that those of us that keep very strict standards that we want that for our children ..I have a hard time when they're in the same class as people with totally different standards and can have a bad influence on them.. why should our homes kedusha be lowered because somebody has a different standard I'm sure there are schools for people with lower standards. We can say dont judge anyone ever and that gives a pass for ppl to do what they want(unfiltered internet, chilul shabbos etc... you might think that these are not comprable examples however ervah is ervah! And wearing bathing suit tight clothing is assur according to all rabbinic authrities
(8/10/2017 6:12:19 AM)
yes to 65
administrator and school can do whatever she wants, and set any rules she wants- i would add with a board, though. who cares nisyonos or what, whatever she sees she can approve or disapprove and accept accordingly.
(8/10/2017 8:53:08 AM)
to 59
That's not entirely accurate.

The other carrot on the end of that stick are the family tuition caps.

Those communities restrict much more tightly but take care of their own. Our wealthy (in many cases) give when they can get VIP sitting at a concert.

(8/10/2017 8:54:11 AM)
"But be aware that children see thru hypocrisy"

How many teachers preach about the internet and have/use it themselves
(8/10/2017 11:16:28 AM)
to 69
65 was discussing tznuis, not all topics. And before to criticise someone else on another topic, make sure YOU practice what YOU preach, for ALL topics!
(8/10/2017 1:30:46 PM)
To 68 from 59
The discussion is not at all about the cost of tuition but about the feeling that school officials should not act at all with judgmental-ism when it comes to deciding who to accept as students. If the prize for restrictions is that the community will lower the cost of tuition, then it is very worth the loss of freedom. Our tuitions are higher, partially because we now need a different school for every hashkafa level. But look at the comments here; there are those who feel that in order to accommodate those who are less tznius, rather than being judgmental, every school should exist for every type. That would also lower the cost but then why would there be a need for a separate administration for each school?
Kiryas Yoel has 5 buildings for each gender but all are under one administration but then they all accommodate the same type of student.
(8/10/2017 2:32:14 PM)
The Lubavitcher Way
I remember a discussion several Buchrim had with a a Mashpia back when I was in Yeshiva. One Bachur brought up a question he was asked by a non lubavitcher on a specific lubavitch behavior which he did not know the answer. The Mashpia suggested that since he did not know the explanation on the specific Minhag, he could give a general explanation and say that we in Lubavitch have a Rebbe and we follow his opinion.

There are now two very strong opinions regarding whether or not schools should or are justified in setting Tznius standards, and I am not here to state my opinion as I don’t think I will change anybody’s opinion on the matter.
I do however suggest everyone to ask themselves the following question. If I had the choice to enter Yechidus and proudly present the Rebbe with one of two pieces of my work, either as an administrator of a school showing the Rebbe the schools’s new policy in attempt to help protect the future of the students at the school, or as the writer of this article or any other of the articles on the subject, which would I chose?
(8/10/2017 6:43:54 PM)
To #72
Indeed, let us ask ourselves "your" question, slightly modified:

If I had the choice to enter Yechidus and proudly present the Rebbe with one of two pieces of my work, either as an administrator of a school showing the Rebbe the schools’s list of dozens of young girls that were disqualified and rejected by my elitist school, or as the writer of this article or any other of the articles on the subject, advocate against misjudging others or even better, judging others positively, and seeing the potential in each neshoma...which would I chose?

That is the real question!

Hint: Did the Rebbe reject people due to their shortcomings or did he positively see the potential of each person?!

Where does the administrator fit?
(8/10/2017 9:18:30 PM)
to #73
If the purpose of the school is kiruv and we are bringing the student to the Torah, it is fine to accept students who are in the school to improve in their mitzvah observance. If the purpose of the school, however, is to bring the Torah to the level of the student, meaning, that we are going to compromise in mitzvah observance in order to allow children to enter the school, it is doubtful as to whether the Rebbe would agree to that. Some Lubavitch schools and camps that existed and still exist for the non-frum population don't make stipulations that will alienate those who they wish to attract but the schools in CH are not for the non-frum population and they don't seek to attract non-frum Jews the way they did in the 1950s.
If we look at pictures of frum schools in the 1960s we see that the tznius level was lower than after the Rebbe spoke of tznius and stated that a girl of age 3 could no longer wear the clothing of a baby but must now dress as tznius as an older girl or as an adult. Then, the levels of tznius began to increase as people were aware that if a tiny 3 yr old must observe tznius, how much more so must her mother?

So #73, would the Rebbe, who wanted tznius for girls as soon as they left toddlerhood, really be happy with an administrator who did nothing to improve the falling tznius standards? Are school administrators the type of community leaders that are duty bound to steer the community toward greater levels of mitzvah observance? If not them, then who?
(8/11/2017 9:36:41 AM)
To administrator, #65
You say "children see through hypocrisy" yet you only stress rules of behavior and dress on the mother and not on the father. Do frum men have no standards to adhere to? Why is the responsibility and outcry only ever focused on women and girls? Sounds like hypocrisy to me.
(8/11/2017 11:00:44 AM)
To #73
Standards equals elitism? Yet another twisted argument against
(8/11/2017 11:45:29 AM)
to 75
The Rebbe said it himself, it's the WOMEN who make / build their home. Ekeres habayis. Start taking your responsibility as a Jewish women should , instead of hypocriting yourself.
(8/12/2017 8:10:18 PM)
to 77
The Rebbeh says it, the administrators say it, the teachers say it. We've all heard it. The woman is special and important. But actions speak louder than words. At the end of the day, who does the school trust and respect enough to put on their educational board? A group that contains not one woman. This is a board making decisions on the Chinuch of the future women of our community. Why is it comprised solely of males? Are they better equipped to understand women's issues and struggles than women themselves?
(8/14/2017 12:20:48 PM)
This article is OFFFF
Who exactly walking around ch in less clothing are we trying to compare to special people of the past? Let's not take these rare special exceptions and use it to justify anyone or anything.
Every private institution can choose their standards...and choose who they choose fit those standards...and where there is limited space there are limited those spts can go to those who exemplify the standards...simple logic. It doesn't mean everyone who wasn't accepted are bad or are doomed.
(8/14/2017 8:44:50 PM)
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