May 28, 2015
The "Girl Shopping" Bochur

4 clues how to spot the "shopping" bochurim in the shidduchim scene to avoid heartache and save yourself time and money.

By Z. Ellendie, published in the N'shei Chabad Newsletter

There are more and more men in the Lubavitch community approaching their thirties not married. True, we also have a large number of women approaching their thirties not married. The difference is that the longer the females remain single, the less particular they get, and the longer the males remain single, the more particular they get.

One simple reason for this is that the men can afford to get fussier and fussier with each passing year. After all, with each passing year, the pool of potential spouses for a man grows exponentially.

For example, a 23-year-old man is considered a potential husband for those women aged 23 and younger, whereas a 30-year-old man has so many, many more potential mates to consider. He can still consider all the 20-year-olds, but he can also consider all the 24- to 30-year-olds.

On the other hand, assuming that we continue with the generally accepted pattern of women marrying men older than them, with each passing year, the women have fewer potential spouses to consider. It is highly unlikely that a 30-year-old female will get engaged to a 25-year-old male.

But there is more to it than that.

It is basic male biology to always be looking for more and for better. There are those who say that monogamy is not a natural state for a vibrant young male. It is natural that a male will have a bit of a hard time before he commits to a single female for the rest of his life. Traditionally, we in the frum community have dealt with this issue by encouraging our young men to enter committed relationships before they start shopping, because we know that once the shopping starts, it is hard to stop.

At the same time, the women are also doing what comes naturally to them – they are tuning in to their desire to create a home and a nest. So, with each passing year, a woman becomes more tolerant of imperfections in a potential mate.

(Everyone is doing what comes naturally to them. But, as frum Jews, we know that we are not always to do what comes naturally. We must channel our urges and do what is right. For example, I naturally like to sleep late and eat ice cream.)

And so, we have a situation where some older males feel like they are Achashverosh, accepting auditions from maidens who would be queen. It is a system that works, because the maidens get on line to audition.

There are “good bochurim” who have dated over a hundred girls, and have still not found “the right one.”

This is understandable, because (newsflash) nobody is perfect!

And so, we have young women internally beating themselves up as only young women can – if only I did not have a hook nose, or did not have stringy hair, or was five pounds thinner, or had smaller feet, or earned more money, or earned less money, or was funnier...

(Ironically, a lot of the attributes that are considered big negatives for females are perfectly acceptable attributes for the males. It is perfectly okay for a male to be balding, or have a paunch, or be a bookworm. But G-d forbid that a female should possess any of those attributes!)

So here is the theory: The longer a man dates, the less likely he is to actually get engaged to his current date.

Here is a glimpse into the thought process of a shopping male:

I did not get engaged to Redhead because she was not all that pretty. So now I just met Blondie, and yes, she is pretty, but her family is such a pain. How can I get engaged to a girl with such a family? If I am going to go for the family that is a pain, I might as well go for Curlyhead – her family is rich so she is probably high-need, but at least they have yichus, so it’s worth it. But Curly-head is chubby, and her mother is obese. I certainly do not want my wife to look like that in twenty years. Maybe I should have gone for the girl from California, whatever her name was – but she seemed so shallow. I cannot tolerate shallow. Yes, I myself am rather deep, and I need depth in a mate, like that one with the gap between her front teeth. If only her parents had gotten her braces, that one might have gone somewhere...

After all, the shopping male is getting multiple offers daily, why rush into anything? The next one may just be better.

Either consciously or unconsciously, the shopping male is aware that the females have ticking biological clocks, which makes them anxious to please him, while he can afford to bide his time.

This phenomenon is very common in the non-frum world, but it is new in the frum world (on such a large scale).

In the non-frum world, we have young women doing all kinds of things that they do not feel comfortable with in order to win the favor of the shop-
ping males, because they feel they have no choice. They know if they will not please the shopping male, he will move on. What is currently happening in our society is, thank G-d, not on the same scale as what happens in the non-frum world, but it is a phenomenon just the same.

Young women diet, spend tons of money on clothes and makeup, have their hair professionally done for dates, bend themselves into pretzels trying to be whatever the guy wants, and for what? To be rejected or, worse, ignored.

I was recently involved with a young woman who had still not received a response from a male whom she had dated the week before. To quote the shadchan’s words to the girl’s mother: “You and your daughter are so much more invested in this than he is in your daughter. He has dated many girls and he will probably date many more girls. There is no point in pressuring him for an answer. If you pressure him, the answer is for sure no.”

This was a young man who had been described by the shadchan as a gentleman – he always buys his dates expensive drinks and rents a nice car and holds the door for his date and says please and thank you. Yes, those are gentlemanly behaviors that we value because we assume that they are indicators of thoughtfulness on a deeper level as well. But, in our current age, they are not always good indicators.

As a public service to the young women of Lubavitch and their parents, I am going to help you spot the shopping males so that you can avoid heartache and save yourself time and money, not to mention anguish.

This list of helpful hints is in no way complete, it is just what I can think of right now, based on my experience.

Hint #1: The shopping male and his representatives do not bother with Dor Yeshorim numbers. Why waste time when it is probably not going to work out anyway?

Hint #2: The shopping male does not travel to meet a potential mate. It is the female who is auditioning before him, remember? Why should he travel? Let the female travel to him, or if they both happen to be in the same city at the same time, some time in thevague future, they can meet then.

Hint #3: The shopping male does not do research. If she is pretty and has “curb appeal,” he will do research then.

Hint #4: The shopping male is in no rush to get back to the girl or her representative after the date. Whereas in the normal shidduch world it is con-
sidered proper etiquette for both sides to communicate their reactions some time the next morning, the shopping male may take a week or longer to communicate his reaction.

Imagine, if all females (and their families) would stop tolerating this rude and arrogant behavior from the males, it might just stop!

It is not a new concept that it is up to the females of a community to pro-
vide standards that males need to live up to. I know that it is not easy, especially with so many older single women wanting to start families of their own, but it is time to expose the shameful behavior of the shopping male.

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Opinions and Comments
Luv it, and I am a married male. Whatever happened to basic common decency, and proper social etiquette? Isn't that the essence of Chassidus?
(5/28/2015 9:34:04 PM)
marrying older girl
men who marry a girl who is the same ago or even a year or two older have a happier life and a more successful marriage
but it takes a really good man to see that. the ones who date 100 girls are obviously not very good bocherim. at least character wise
(5/28/2015 9:34:53 PM)
so true and to the point!!!
hint #5 - i wish i could name all the shopping males to save single girls so much time and effort!!!
(5/28/2015 9:36:24 PM)
These young men are products of their " upbringing".
Their behavior is tolerated and encouraged by their parents.
If this is what you're willing to tolerate , it can only get worse as time goes on.
and chas veshalom you marry someone with such poor midos... Uch its a rachmonos.
(5/28/2015 9:40:28 PM)
Thank You,
Well said and unfortunately, evolving into a big issue in our community.
(5/28/2015 9:41:04 PM)
very true..there really is little to do at this point, as it seems that the dye has been set. The men here in the community view the young women like a conveyor belt. It will truly be a rachamnus from the abershder to help out here. You know, when I get really frustrated, we just have to scream at the "third partner" to article recently from a rabbi in the community wanted to initiate some "punitive measures" on these type of men for what they are doing to the young women...they should not be accepted or judged gently for their behavior..but in reality...nothing can be done. HaShem yerachem.
(5/28/2015 9:45:35 PM)
As an amateur shaschan this is 100% true, I wish I would have been this articulated so well little while ago I would've saved some of the girls i introduced some heartache.
Will add that quite a bit of the problem is the mothers of the boys, that set up unrealistic expectations of the type of girl they want for their son.
(5/28/2015 9:55:38 PM)
And what about girls?
Sorry but it works both ways. I personally know 3 guys who are ready to get married yet the girls aren't ready to commit. So dont just call out the guys, girls also have what to work on. We are in this together, so if there is a problem on one side, chances are the other side has something to do with it
(5/28/2015 10:10:19 PM)
Excellent article. Maybe shadchonim could help by encouraging bochurim to seriously consider the girls based on their midos etc rather than from what town they are from. I find that as an out of towner i have been given such poor chances from the shadchonim because"why would a bochur be interested in your daughter when there are so many locals?"
(5/28/2015 10:13:39 PM)
very well article
This is a very well written article
one point: bochurim are often (not always) the ones traveling for a date, and after two times flying overseas and three times within the states, it may become hard for them to invest the time, energy and money needed to travel for what might turn out to be something that wont work out - so lets just be aware of that possibility
(5/28/2015 10:15:38 PM)
Hamase hu ha'ikar
Can we create a wall of shame for bochurim who are rude? Honestly, though, when I was dating, we all knew which bochurim to stay away from - our friends told us not to ever date the boys that screwed them over. But that means girls have to discuss with each other who they've dated...
(5/28/2015 10:21:42 PM)
it's so rude to make the girl wait a week or think about it!!!
Hello?! Commen decently...menchlichkeit?
(5/28/2015 10:34:37 PM)
To #11
I'm all for that wall of shame. I dated a couple of guys - rude is a nice way to describe my expirences. Seriously who do you guys think you are- go and get help and learn how to be respectful and how to treat a woman with some class before taking a girl out and breaking her tender heart. Shame on all u men who made dates miserable for young women including myself.
(5/28/2015 10:35:39 PM)
So true!!!
And all the profile emailing only compounds the problem. Now bochorim are forwarded tons of profiles of great women who are ready to settle down. Meanwhile they get to look at pictures and decide who is with their time without making a single phone call or even reading the actual Shidduch profile! Shadchanim should blacklist them... I know a Shadchan who pushes all parties to explain why they are saying no. If they refuse to say why, the Shadchan will not make another suggestion for them until they do so. No one likes a pushy Shadchan, but if they are going to help you get married, you have to be able to share what went wrong and why it's not shiach so the next time they will make a better suggestion. Also... Of you are embarrassed by your reason for saying no, there is usually a reason why...
(5/28/2015 10:53:35 PM)
very true. but!
This is very true, but girls also get more "selective" the older they get (they just don't get rude the boys do).

I am now happily married, but when I dated, I davka wanted to date older girls, as they were always more mature, but they would always get cold feet at some point (some after 2 months of dating...) while the girls who were younger than me who I dated generally were interested in getting engaged...(while I found them too shallow... I ended up marrying s/o 5 years younger...).

But the author's point is indisputable.
(5/28/2015 10:53:53 PM)
Terrible Article
A potpourri collection of all complaints possible against bochurim. This article will not solve anything. Go read a book like " I only want to get married once" and help yourself.
(5/28/2015 11:10:26 PM)
I dated a California and actually
She was a deep, chassidish girl who had her values straight.. Just saying
(5/28/2015 11:12:45 PM)
Maybe the girls should start paying for half the flights/hotels?
"Hint #2: The shopping male does not travel to meet a potential mate."

Of course this has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that it costs hundreds or thousands of dollars for hotels and flights!
(5/28/2015 11:13:10 PM)
Chabad family
As a chabad person I have a strong opinion regarding this matter. We must follow the Rebbe's advice as well as the Halochos in Shulchan Aruch. There, I said my comment, I fulfilled my need to post a random comment
(5/28/2015 11:17:26 PM)
To #19
Thumbs up!! I'm with you.
(5/28/2015 11:28:16 PM)
Will the real Male please stand UP.
The male need this type of attitude to survive in the wilderness this is called natural selection..... hello! is this a article out of a science journal. From "based on my experience" whatever chance there is on one side off the coin has a fifty percent chance of falling on the other and thats a FACT.

What about the girls that dates a guy who is 30 what are they thinking. I wonder how many of them are looking at the car, the watch, and how the suit is on him. Lets talk about the Modern girl the one that lives in all the influences she gets from watching all her movies. Oh' she does Chitas she must be only looking for a slouched fat chasidishe bachur!!!!!
(5/28/2015 11:33:01 PM)
19 go
You hit it straight on!
(5/28/2015 11:39:01 PM)
i love a man that can shop
i look at myself as a pretty well dressed put together person i get what she is saying here and she does have a point about these selfish narcissistic self righteous good looking handsome dude as myself. People always think that the perfect husband can't exist, but then look at me I'm single, i have bachelor pad and call me for an appointment. You might have seen have seen me on forbs and GQ and my long list of my long list and less impressive showcasing. Enough about me now you talk about me.

P.S the dude - and as stated above....
(5/28/2015 11:43:16 PM)
Issues Go Two Ways
I know a bochur that traveled overseas to meet a girl and the girl refused a second date. Really ? She couldn't agree to meet him twice ? And then say no ?
I think that a girl should pay for half the expenses. Especially if the bochur went out 5 times, covered the expenses, and is very comfortable to move ahead. And the girl needs "much" "more" time. Perhaps if she footed half the bill she would have her priorities straight.
(5/28/2015 11:51:02 PM)
Don't be blinded by the shadows but see the sun rays!
There are so many girls and boys out there ready to get married and meet their soul mate, so don't put the blame on them just because of those few people who don't know how to spend their time exquisitely.
Someone with experience:)
(5/28/2015 11:57:51 PM)
more girls in the system then boys.
we seem to be keeping our girls in the lubavitch system but losing many of the boys. There are way more girls in the shidduch system then boys available. big problem! We need change in the yeshivas ... something isnt working
(5/28/2015 11:57:56 PM)
Great read
These guys are serial daters and often confused and afraid of the responsibility of marriage.Some consciously some not.
We need real solutions to help these young adults get past this and commit. They will be happier I the long run.
(5/29/2015 12:07:55 AM)
Boys also marry older girls
I have a few friends now (Bochurim) that are 23 that are marrying girls that are 26/27.
(5/29/2015 12:17:53 AM)
Hamaaseh hu haikor
1) Parents should encourage their dating child, whether male or female to talk to a mashpia. Marrying someone is one of the biggest life decisions a person will make.

2) Shadchanim need to make rules. Not overbearing rules but rules of mentchlichkeit

3) People need to do their part but at the same time Hashem decides who each person will marry. So do your part but don't get discouraged if the tenth person you date isn't the right one. Maybe the 5th will work out a year later? Maybe number 11 is it? Maybe you aren't really ready? There are so many factors, we don't play G-D. This point goes back to my first, a mashpia needs to discuss this with the boy/ girl.

4) A guy who shops around like that doesn't sound mature enough to get married, no matter what his age is. So be happy that Mr. Shopper moved on, you deserve better.
(5/29/2015 12:18:41 AM)
really disturbed 18 yr old bochur
"Young women diet, spend tons of money on clothes and makeup, have their hair professionally done for dates, bend themselves into pretzels trying to be whatever the guy wants" ????????????? horrible. i dont think any girl wth a healthy working head should do all those things and pain herself like that. if thats actually happening im really... i dont even know. hashem should help these girls! .. ig uess the next words said it all- "and for what?"
(5/29/2015 12:27:19 AM)
I think someone is suffering from Gender-Stereotype
Have we really gone back to the 19th century view on men? Shallow, superficial, and msygonistic? As a guy, yes that gives me right to generalize my entire gender, I can say we are as diverse as women are! Its not a male attribute to be indecisive, the reason he can't make up his mind could be for a million different reasons.
(5/29/2015 12:36:41 AM)
i agree
I unfortunately had to go through this.... he broke my heart after taking me out 20+ times. And yes each date just kept getting better... I really thought i found the one! :(
The boys need guidance and need to learn to have that leap of faith. You're never going to find that perfect one without a single flaw...
(5/29/2015 12:37:00 AM)
to the writer and many of you out there reading these articles
I agree with the article, but what about the girls side how some behave as well?
Like they can take time to get back to the shadchan or boys side too sometimes, or say interested but then for stupid reason will say no before even going out, and sometimes it was they who had pushed/ran after the guys side..
Sometimes because they have high expectations that after little thought decided to change their mind as the bochur doesn't meet those expectations..
They want working guy, but who learns, or shlichus type but not to chassidish..
Loud and popular or organizer/head counselor type but not full of themselves..
It runs both ways,
And then there's the thing with the shadchanim who are too pushy, they tell you to go out again even tho doesn't feel right or values don't match up..
(Talking from experience..)
And yes some parents do give wrong type of discription to the shadchan of boy or what type of girl he wants.. When really based on what they want..
Thats partly why they say now, that the best shiduchim are from friends, tho lot of friends or siblings are too scared to suggest anything as what if doesn't work out??
And guys have to dress up to(tho not same headache as women) I always thought its crazy how much your told (both got and girl) to dress up and put on impression lotore then needed,it just adds to pressure and nervousness and doesn't let ulyou necessarily be yourself on date.
So yes guys have to stop being so picky and maybe its more by guys, but its by girls as well.
I know I don't told my parents when first started, that don't care about family and yichus or all these things as long as no real issues and and normal good gilr for me.
So all these shiduch articles thinking they found the solution or big part of it, you'll always find more and more negativity if you look, what you can do is try to educate yourselves and friends and others, but stop writing in such a negative way!
Its like not their all written out of frustration not to help solve any problems.
(We all get little frustrated when things don't work out how we thought it would especially in shiduchim, but man up and move on to next one, maybe the girl should stop putting on so much makeup and wearing heels and such fancy clothes on dates so guys won't have or will have to change and maybe realize that that's not all there is to a girl to be a catch or to he worth it some put it, or even if for him.)
Let's alp work on our own stuff and try to better ourselves and hopefully realize when there time to end it if needs be, and not get dragged further to impress or whatever, but as it says- whatever a person sees in someone else is a reflection of what they have inside of them.(not saying that every time a girl or sees something bad its the case, but worth to take a look at yourself.)
(5/29/2015 12:44:02 AM)
works both ways
There's also the issue with women who are very strong personalities, like ones who feel they must work (more of to price themselves like feminist)and not because need money or want to help.. So they have high expectations too..
(5/29/2015 12:50:07 AM)
Boo Hoo
I dated only a handful of Lubavitch girls and than lost interest. Too many women in Lubavitch have a victim-like "woe is to me/I must get married because it is my salvation" sort of attitude. This article is typical victim talk and man-bashing. What an awful attitude to approach dating with. It always makes me laugh when I see an older girls' resume with large lists of what she's looking for In her future spouse. If you truly wish to marry than get a little realistic or start looking out of Lubavitch. Or maybe your attitude stinks. And ya, I think hook-noses are very unattractive so I'm not your man. Good luck to those still searching.
(5/29/2015 12:57:03 AM)
great comment. Getting to the bottom of it, is the way to go!
(5/29/2015 1:05:24 AM)
Pointless rant
I didn't catch the punchline of this seemingly pointless piece. It appears to be one of those rants about how men are so privileged and how women are made to suffer.

There are very, very few "serial daters", and they are of both, the male and female variety. Shame on those few people.

Has it occurred to the author of this opinion piece that perhaps some people date a lot because it takes them a long time to find their match?
(5/29/2015 1:12:15 AM)
to 30
Ud be surprised. It's comes more from an instinct to please rather than a conscious decision
(5/29/2015 1:27:15 AM)
im a male.
So there a "the shopping girl" hint part 2? I think this simply put not "fair". We all know how hard shidduchim can in such a "galus"!. Lets be an "inspiration" and only show positive balanced support while sticking together. This octus will allows to really break all boundaries. With moshiach ztidkainu mamesh!!
(5/29/2015 1:52:20 AM)
Am i the only one thinking this?
You know, as a 23 year old guy who is normal and always treats any woman with respect, I find this this article to be unpleasant. Now, i am not saying what the author writes is false, unfortunately a lot of it is true. But what articles like these do (at least how i feel) is that it leaves a subconscious bad taste for women towards (dating) men in general, dragging the good guys along as well... Especially with all negative comments following it. Shame....

Its simple guys. Treat a woman how you would want your dad to treat your mom, Your future brother in law to treat your sister, and your future son in law to treat your daughter. Women, vice versa.
(5/29/2015 2:01:15 AM)
An author with a chip on her shoulder. Is it a given that males grow more selective while females grow less selective? Nonsense! I know plenty of cases that are vice versa. Clearly, it depends on the individual. A lot of frustration and stereotyping.
(5/29/2015 2:32:42 AM)
Not accurate.
While I understand the that there are people out there that are rude (to say the least) and many girls have suffered that abuse...I must say, besides for the fact that whatever was written here can be said both ways, for the most part this article is completely off.

Just to point out a few...

- To say that a guy has more options because at the age of 30 he can still date a 20 yo.
To say there least, there are barley any girls at the age of 20 that will even think of dating a 30 yo (not even a 29, 28 or 27yo) so that theory has no backing.

- As they get older boys become more picky and girls become more open for the most part is complete nonsense. Ask a younger bocher if hes interested in a girl a year older, most boys will look at the idea as absurd. Ask a older bocher if he would marry older and you find there is more of a chance they would be open to the idea. So do boys and girls become more picky yes and no but its a way street...

- Its surprising but just from dealing with many bochurim, it seems that a majority of boys are interested in allot of the girls they date.. and if not at first they are still generally more willing go out a few more times just to give the girl a chance, when most girls go out once if your lucky twice and their not interested. Or halfway through their dates they already decided their not interested and are not going to give the guy a chance. (Interesting discovery after hearing so much noise about boys being picky.) That also follows the statement in the article about girls being a ticking time would think that reality would make them be more open and less picky.

- The concept of guys dating hundreds of girls is absolutely false..I guess unless their from a very wealthy home you might be right) Most bochurim barely date more then a few girls year, if your luck, a bit more. That's not only because bocherim turn down names...but because girls turn down names too. Yes from all the names bocherim get, I would guess 98% of the girls are are not interested in even going out. While everyone has a right to not be interested or feel incompatible, its ironic how this article singles out bocherim for being picky and how girls are more open with less options...not so sure about that.

- Bocherim looking for the perfect one or a supper model...whether right, wrong true or false, I think we can say the same thing about girls...ok so their ok with a guy thats not a model as long as hes a professional with a good income. I am not trying to knock anyone just trying to show how this article is completely off.

- The article goes on about the financial expense for girls...really, are you serious?
Yes its "the way of the world" and yes its "dating etiquette" that the guy takes the girl out...whether completely right or not that's the way it is...on that note dating is expensive, even a local date without a rental is expensive (worthwhile but expensive) Bocherim spend thousands of dollars dating and that's without, dating 10's of girls a year... even creatively keeping your cost low it comes out to a pretty penny. To rage about finances from a girls perspective, come on, really?

This article complains about bocherim not willing to travel to meet their bashert...yes your right this is a issue and dating etiquette would probably mean that they should...but lets take a few things into much can you really get to know about your date before you go out? Does that suffice enough to just pick up and travel across the world? Imagine bocherim would travel every time a shadchan said "this girl is different"...who would be able to fund that? I mean if the girl is looking to marry someone and build a home together doesnt she want her perspective husband to have some change in the pocket so they can start on something, forget the debt that many end up with and if his parents are supporting him...they also have a family to support. So unless the bocher has those funds available how do you expect him to finance this expense? Now even if the bocher is working and has the funds, taking off a week or two every time a shadchan is convinced she is the one, will probably get him fired or bankrupt..and yes the same is true for there a real issue but you cannot forget that this is a valid perspective.
So if a bocher wants to meet his prospective wife when she is in town (or visa versa) ..wouldn't that just be practical? Being that most boys and girls do come to Crown Heights at some point wouldn't it be courteous to both, that they work out their dates whenever that happens? Maybe theres a more practical solution, but saying bocherim are "rude and shopping" by not always traveling, is not practical and definitely not sensitive to others.

- Taking a week to respond does have validity to no sensitivity...but at the same time the next morning is not always practical...just because you went out two times doesn't mean you know that you want to go out again..and lest not jump to conclusions there can be a million different reasons hes not responding right away...besides, on a side note ,we know guys do take more time to develop relationships..In the non frum world there are studies that show how men who are more likely to be good husbands are interested in searching for a long term relationships (ie marriage) and therefore usually take things much much slower being that they are interested in giving their relationship more time to develop and more thought... So yes a week is not mentchlich but 48 hours is not a monster either.

I do not deny the fact that there are nasty people out there but this article is way off.
(5/29/2015 2:41:47 AM)
Boys & boys parents.
I wish this article & all its comments would be read by the right people who really need 2 read it.
(5/29/2015 3:44:00 AM)
someone is expressing a gender fixation
(5/29/2015 4:06:46 AM)
To #30
if you're really 18 years old I don't think this discussion suites you're age and for a very understandable reason. It's no mystery why you "don't get it"
Occupy yourself with Torah learning for at least a few more years.
(5/29/2015 4:33:46 AM)
Why not create a "shopping male list"
Someone ought to create a shopping male list on the web for young woman and parents to know so they may avoid these names and with time when these boys stop receiving calls then maybe they would get the message and start getting serious.
(5/29/2015 5:56:53 AM)
To # 26
Yes, it's called (hark!), secular education. It was OK and provided in my 80's (and before) Lubavitch high school generation, even producing some of the finest Shluchim. Then "they" changed it 20 or so years ago, to Limudei Kodesh only, just for the boys.
We are now seeing the results. The law of unintended consequences.
(5/29/2015 7:18:03 AM)
Wow! Finally someone had the courage to speak the truth! Especially the part where " a girl can't have any imperfection" but its fine for the boy to not be perfect! Seriously ! Guys ur not perfect looking ! Just because a girl is not perfect looking dosent mean she's not right, start looking more on the inside them what she looks on the outside!!
(5/29/2015 7:28:40 AM)
An important article
The first two tips are great, total giveaways to the serial dater type. They go out but don't really believe jts possibly it could work out, so why travel or do Dor Yesharim?

Big kudos to the author for introducing the subject as an issue. Someone needs to call these guys out instead of setting them up with endless amounts of girls, when meanwhile they have severe commitment issues. How about suggesting some good old psychotherapy to address deep seated issues regarding family, loyalty and healthy relationships before they shlep willing and lovely ladies around town.

Another personal suggestion, the shidduch system needs to get rid of this ridiculous profile. It's absurd.
(5/29/2015 8:58:56 AM)
TYPICAL Feminist Hit Piece
This article is off in so many ways; it was written for the sole purpose of further blaming men for the frustrations women face.

FACT: WOMEN get pickier as they get older ("I did not wait all this time just to marry a ____")

FACT: WOMEN care less about their appearance as they age single.

FACT: WOMEN are more likely to decline an "older" bachur because they are now looking to be one of the lucky ones who marry a "younger" bachur.

FACT: WOMEN have little if any appreciation for the efforts and investment bachurim make to date them, in time, cost and emotion.

FACT: WOMEN are looking for wealthy bachurim and will chase after a rich bachur than a regular one.

OPINION: Authors such as this further damage and fan the flames that do more to justify the anti male narrative and further diminish peoples respect for bachurim and ultimately, the ability for a boy and girl to find one another.
(5/29/2015 10:07:33 AM)
LYR Divorced, 31, no kids:
I'm not a shopping male; ill meet any chassidisheh girl with a warm personality. But i cant cross the ocean to meet someone because i have local responsibilities (work, school etc.) , unlike a 23 year-old 770 bochur.
(5/29/2015 10:14:59 AM)
To #46
No problem. Just as long as there's a shopping girls list as well so that the young men and their parents know which girls to avoid
(5/29/2015 11:32:56 AM)
why do we disrespect young women?
This article uses the term 'girl' 8 times, including use for women who are old enough to buy liquor, vote, and fight in the armed forces. It does not use the term 'boy' even once.

Very telling.

as for the comments and article together the term 'boy' is used 2 dozen times, while the word 'girl' is used over 80 times.

A little respect, please.
(5/29/2015 12:20:43 PM)
This is worse than those articles you find on those feminist websites! Imagine if a bochur wrote an article like this about girls. Everyone would be screaming and shouting.
(5/29/2015 12:28:51 PM)
A smart article
Would probably let all singles in our community know that this whole process is in the hands of the One Above.
In shidduchim, it is not so important to try to find a mate as is it to try to not lose yourself in the mix. Hash-m chose your husband/wife, so just relax, trust Him and don't take things so personally, because none of this really has anything to do with us.
If you or your friends are in this parsha, do yourselves a favor and take it easy. Go live your life and if you're being who you're meant to be, the other half of you will cross your path along the way.
It's not easy, but its more productive to work on keeping your sanity than it is to try to fix everyone else.

"Young women diet, spend tons of money on clothes and makeup, have their hair professionally done for dates, bend themselves into pretzels trying to be whatever the guy wants, and for what? To be rejected or, worse, ignored."
PS, regarding the above quote, there is nothing more unattractive than someone who has so little integrity and self-worth and so much desperation that they won't be true to themselves. What person would want to marry someone like that? If you're looking for the other half of your neshama, the best tool that you can is use to find it is the half that's already in you. The secret to shidduchim, like everything else in life, is pnimiyus.
Hatzlacha rabba to all the serious singles who really are trying and doing it for the right reasons. We know it's hard, but don't give up on yourselves.
(5/29/2015 1:39:17 PM)
To #50
What makes the things you write as "facts" really facts? The same way you say that what is written in the article isn't facts, so too what you write is not fact either - it's only about a few select individuals - and you are writing it as a fact about all older women!
(5/29/2015 1:52:22 PM)
To all our singles....
As I am a parent in the shiddach parsha I encounter many, many singles of both genders. I am delighted by swo many of our singles;' they ALL seem so special! The girls come across for the most part as lovely, fun but responsible, serious about marriage, on track, with good goals and middos. The boys seem energetic, fine, intelligent, open-minded, hard-working 'temimim'. I think our (Chabad) world is filled with gems!! Please parents and singles, don't despair, don't let it get to you. Be kind, be open, trust Hashem... and you will find the one to share your life with. :)
(5/29/2015 2:28:01 PM)
1. If girls(/woman) want a gentleman they have to be a lady (not just be sensitive)...
2. To just want a bachur with good job/$ is as said in Pirkey Avos "ahavah hatluya b'davar..." what a shame.
(5/29/2015 3:05:57 PM)
I like the way some of you say the Shadchanim should push for answers or for a second date...
I'm impressed that you you even got through to a shadchan!
Someone who doesn't respond, return phone calls, emails, texts, whatsapps, follow up should not be allowed to call themselves a shadchan. There should be a blacklist of shadchanim too!!!
I wish I could get a shadchan to even tell me "no". They don't even respond!!!
(5/29/2015 3:47:29 PM)
Amen to that!!
Im on board with the change
(5/29/2015 3:48:49 PM)
the only thing that
gets better with age, is wine and wisdom.

Men (and women) are neither.

Men are the same grub-yungen when they are younger as when they are older. Even worse, when they are older the grub-keit really shows. Men (and women) need to realize that life is more than facebook and yichus - marry the person - not the profile.
(5/29/2015 5:33:28 PM)
Imbalance of Power
The author claims that thing are far worse in the "non-frum" world, but presents no data or evidence to back up her assertions.

In the "non-frum" world, women have standards. They expect, that at the very minimum, their potential suitors have good educations, jobs, maintain a healthy appearance, be a gentleman, etc. Unfortunately, in the frum world, women will all too often date, and even marry, men who are jobless, have no education, direction, or career, have little to no ambition, and are not particularly well groomed. This reality allows mens who would otherwise not be considered attractive in the "real world", to have their pick of the lot, without having to earn it.
(5/29/2015 6:06:00 PM)
to # 57
Agree! a breath of fresh air. Thanks
(5/29/2015 6:30:02 PM)
Citation needed
Opinion is fine, but please bring citations for anything presented as a fact.
(5/29/2015 8:22:01 PM)
A "shopping bochur"
I was called a serial dater shopping bochur etc etc. (about 20ppl a year) but I was just lookin for a short list of attributes and when I found her with them I put a ring on it. Both of us are very happily married for years now!
(5/30/2015 5:49:30 AM)
Didn't read 63 comments, but as a mom who B"H married off all my boys (& girls) I say - BRILLIANT. My boys weren't shoppers, far from it. The most people any of my kids dated was 3. Most married their first (only) date, But one of my girls dated a shopper. When she was happily married with 2 children, her shopper eventually married - a dull, unsophisticated, dowdy & plain girl, no yichus, no money. So he was holding out for "the very best"? Time marched on & pickings got slimmer.

I blame the parents. If you don't teach your children to be mentschen & respectful (girls as well as boys) they will soon be alone. Someone who dates should always approach the date as "THE one". G-d willing, it will be.
(5/30/2015 2:37:11 PM)
shadchanim business
Someone needs to start doing shadchanim as an organized business. I believe this would help because currently, the way things are working is informal and inefficient. Shadchanim would be more motivated and on the ball if they were being hired in a professional capacity and doing everything according to a set system.
(5/30/2015 3:41:32 PM)
I'm married to a wonderful woman for over a decade. She's slightly older than me and at most is something we tease each other about in good spirit.

I don't get why men are so hung up over the age thing. The Rebetzin was older than the Rebbe!
(5/30/2015 10:08:14 PM)
to # 57
Should I say thank you pollyanna? There is so much frustration out there for those of us who get no response or ever hear from anyone- even a no is better than please get off the Disney cloud and come back to reality.
(5/30/2015 10:34:20 PM)
to # 66
THat is how you describe a Jewish woman-and no yichus as if that's some HUGE character asset?What a joke.I find your comment about some young woman very un-menshlichkeit and it shows me you need to learn something about putting others down as if they are "nothing".
(5/30/2015 11:46:19 PM)
To #70
Oh dear, you completely missed the point. Shame.
(5/31/2015 1:01:29 AM)
To # 26
Yes, it's called (hark!), secular education. It was OK and provided in my 80's (and before) Lubavitch high school generation, even producing some of the finest Shluchim. Then "they" changed it 20 or so years ago, to Limudei Kodesh only, just for the boys.
We are now seeing the results. The law of unintended consequences.
(5/31/2015 6:03:56 AM)
spot on!
I just realized I'm totally a shopping male, and I'll work on myself to approach our woman with more respect.
(5/31/2015 9:47:49 AM)
for the love of gd.
"It is basic male biology to always be looking for more and for better" quite ridiculous. this article is so messed up in so many ways its so sad.
(5/31/2015 10:08:45 AM)
to #26
You are right on point!!
(5/31/2015 10:33:23 AM)
number 71
No I did not miss the point.Your point was that the serial dater ended up with some loser that you described.He found someone he was compatible with and there's no need to degrade anyone,Which is what was done.Serial daters are not always looking for some bombshell with "yichus"aqnd money.They want whatever makes them feel they have a partner which isn't for you to judge and dissect.
(5/31/2015 11:18:49 AM)
Right on, who are you ? Older?or young? Male or female, married? Shadchanit ?
(5/31/2015 1:41:08 PM)
I'm a nice respectful bocher who's down to earth and went to good yeshivas and from a good home so I thought dating would be a breeze but little did I know how hard it is to find my other half.

I have gone out with a older girl who I really liked and she liked me as well and after many dates she wasn't ready to commit.

I feel this article if very inaccurate and just puts down people. There's no general rule which applies, everyone is different and to find your other half is a tough task.

I wish everyone the best and hope that everyone finds their bashert in the right time.
(5/31/2015 1:41:33 PM)
54 and 57
Thank you for telling the truth!
(5/31/2015 3:40:27 PM)
Girls are just as bad!
a girl taking time getting back to the shadchan is ok?
Keeping a bochur waiting is fine & menchleich?
Having him pay & travel for all dates is no problem?
She's earning and he's learning so it's his parents coughing up. And G-d forbid if he doesn't take enough of a personal interest in her day - he gets dumped!
Girls are out shopping too!
(5/31/2015 5:47:40 PM)
Dear Bitter Author
Your entire point here is based on a false premise. Just because you don't like something that doesn't make it's wrong!
Any young single individual man or woman has the complete and unadulterated right to approach - what will most likely be the biggest decision of his or her's life - in anyway they so choose albeit within the basic perimeters of human decency. Demanding more from frum woman on dates is not only understandable but certainly comprehensible as well, and not at all reprehensible as you so put it. If they are not exchanging dor yeshorim numbers then it is as much her fault as it is his.
Travel - as one commentor put it - is simply a financial issue and a man should not be judged poorly for simply trying to guard his savings, expenses should be split 50/50 which includes travel, car rental, drinks etc...
Delayed responses - as so many have already made clear here applies equally on both sides.
Bottom line: A man or woman should ONLY get married to someone who they love and respect and not for any other reason which seems to be what you are indicating in this grossly irresponsible and emotionally fueled drivel.
(5/31/2015 8:39:25 PM)
There is no point to this article. Tell us something we don't know. Also what's the proof that as guys get older , they get pickier and not girls? Did you conduct a survey, or study on the matter? I'm sorry, but his article is a bunch of nonsense.
(5/31/2015 9:19:54 PM)
delayed responses don't necessarily mean that the person is a shopper.
Sometimes it's confusion and yes people do make mistakes in the dating process. We need to learn from those and move on. Sometimes its really difficult to do that. I learned in the process so far, not to judge or over think what happened not to set my hopes too high and to let go. I learned to forgive myself and others. I'm a much stronger person as a result. I'm sure that there is more lessons ahead of me on this journey. I learned so much about life from every person I dated so I know that everything has a reason. May all the pain on this earth end and may there be only pure joy with the coming of Moshiach.
(5/31/2015 10:18:09 PM)
to 83:
I just read you're comment. I feel the same, although I am still dealing with a difficult experience. I was really hurt and being a guy, unfortunately there wasn't really a recognition (in person). I echo your wish, may all the pain come to an end..
(6/2/2015 4:43:40 PM)
I'm surprised
The amount of generalizing in this article is unacceptable like it says making a shidduch is as hard as splitting the yam Suf saying no to a shidduch is a Devine inspired thing you'll say ya when HaShem wants you to say ya
(6/3/2015 12:49:44 AM)
Comments 1,3,9,18,55
You guys all sound like a thirteen year old kid who's reading col and just doesn't get it but wants to be cool so is commenting

We must of course
Always what the rebbe said on this matter
(6/3/2015 12:53:14 AM)
i really don't get it
you're all writing how miserable you are, such nebachs. the poor women, the poor boys who are being blamed. the truth is that there are shopping boys and girls.
the womem right how men treat them badly, and the men are writing how the women are blaming men for everything. seriously!such babies! dear women, we heard your side of things. dear men, you sound just like the women who are complaining over everything! come on1
(6/3/2015 3:26:04 PM)
A non-shopper male
The same is with the shopping woman. She does not bother with Dor yeshorim, does not go over sees special for a date, does not do the research and does not get back so fast to the shaddchon.
(8/2/2015 11:33:18 PM)
many comments missed the point
The author expresses a valid issue. Though there may be women who have the same attitude - it seems more likely that this is mostly a male problem - basically arrogance. If they are a real chossid this should not be the case!
(10/4/2015 12:57:45 AM)
2 seperate issues
It seems that 2 issues have been mingled into one.
1. There is a basic mentchlichkeit and consideration of the other's feeling that must be taken into account. That includes getting bback to the shadchan in time, etc.
2. A boy or girl may find it hard to commit for a variety of reasons. Maybe he just hasn't found the right one, or perhaps he has some underlying issue. However it is way better to say no after 20 dates than get married and end up in a divorce C"V
In short, saying no is ok at any point; not being mentchlich - never ok!!!!
(11/15/2015 6:17:36 AM)
Stop bashing men and bochurim already. It's disgusting, and men put up with it because, they know they will look bad for putting an ounce of blame on the female gender.

I'm a woman.
(12/26/2015 7:50:32 PM)
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