By Libby Herz
The growing conversation about Agunahs has recently brought together a group of people to discuss the arguments pro and against prenuptial agreements for Jewish marriages.
“This is a very complex and sensitive issue,” stated Rabbi Chezzi Denebeim, leader of Chevras Ahavas Yisroel in Crown Heights, a local shul that hosted a “Halachik Prenup/Postnup Party” on March 29.
Some 50 people showed up, including singles, engaged and married couples – all interested in the process that advocates say can avoid abusive situations from developing when a spouse refuses a ‘get’ divorce.
“This event is about caring for those who are oppressed,” said the organizer, Aden Ratner-Stauber, a psychology extern at New York City Children’s Center Bronx Campus. “I wanted to be proactive and help women who are suffering.”
Allison Josephs, who runs the website Jew in the City, spoke at the event. “We have been happily married for 15 years,” she said, “we are going to sign a postnup to support the community.”
One of the halachic authorities backing the prenup, in addition to the Beis Din of America (BDA), is Chabad Rabbi Moshe D. Gutnick, member of the Sydney Beth Din and President Organisation of Rabbis of Australasia (ORA).
“I unreservedly support any prenup that has the approval of Reb Zalman Nechemia Goldberg,” he stated in an e-mail, referring to the senior posek that lives in Jerusalem. Advocates admit that Rabbi Gutnick is almost a lone rabbinical voice in his support for the prenup.
The reciprocal prenup is only put into effect once a husband and wife have gone through couples counseling, are no longer living together, and have spoken to rabbonim. If their rabbonim decide that divorce is the only viable option, the prenup is activated.
At that point, the party who refuses to participate in the get process becomes legally bound to pay $150 to their estranged spouse on a daily basis until the get is given, sources say. $150 a day equals to a little less than $55,000 a year.
Rabbi Gutnick will be presenting a lecture titled “Challenges Facing a Bais Din in the 21st Century: The Agunah, Abuse, Justice in the Torah System” on Tuesday, April 28.
Taking place at 8:30pm at the United Lubavitcher Yeshiva hall at 570 Crown Street, Rabbi Gutnick will explore what some call the Agunah crisis and possible solutions to it. He will also field questions from the public.
“Get refusal is a form of abuse,” claimed Mindy Fersel, Assistant Director of Advocacy and Legal Strategy for ORA, which educates Jewish community members about agunot and the prenup and provides advocacy and emotional support to agunot.
“Domestic abuse is defined not only by violence, but also by controlling behavior. The get represents the last vestige of control a husband has over his estranged wife,” she told COLlive. “With it, he has the freedom to decide to give her the freedom to move on and be happy in life or to remain trapped in a dead marriage with little hope of escape or closure.”
“I grew up thinking that Orthodox Jews were not good to women,” said Allison Josephs. “I am involved in this movement to show that we are good to women. There are almost 500 agunot in America right now. We need to find a solution.”
At the March event, when the speeches were done and the crowd had thinned out, a newly married couple approached Kimberly Hay, a Notary Public and Assistant Director of ORA, requesting to sign the halachic reciprocal agreement.
Each showed photo ID and then signed their names under a section which read ‘The parties agree that the Beth Din of America is authorized to decide all monetary disputes.’ Two witnesses then signed their names at the bottom of the document. The couple smiled at each other and handed Kimberly their phone. “Can you take a picture of us?” they asked.
Implication that it will happen to your daughter, sister, etc is a classic way to silence intelligent thought process by introducing a strong emotion.
I guess that’s why we are told to fear Hashem – then we are not vulnerable to the mind control of people who want to use fear to get people to stop thinking.
Using fear is common when discussing this topic. It scares a lot of people into silence.
Below is a comment that was posted on an earlier article of this topic. The comment is posted with the name of Rabbi Braun. 18 Why do you think the rabbis dont know about the prenup they feel its to ify By Horav Yosef Yeshaya Braun, shlita, member of the Badatz of Crown Heights. #249 Prenuptial Agreements There is a discussion amongst contemporary poskim regarding prenuptial agreements. Sometimes a husband and wife have irreconcilable differences, which unfortunately lead to divorce. Numerous solutions have been proposed over the generations to address the agunah scenario that occurs when a recalcitrant husband declines… Read more »
It’s easier for a man to make a living in this world.
Why are they entitled to a certain lifestyle?
No pain.The woman always marries up,and is entitled to a lifestyle… a man doesn’t mind.Love can only cover so much emotional territory,women need more to be comfortable with raising kids then men.It is not there mitzvah to procreate,it is ours,and a prenuptual agreement circumvents and sabotages our own mitzvah. DB Halevy, Tsfat
The shiur will be posted online in about a week and a half. Unfortunately, something went wrong with the videotaping, and it was taped by several people and will have to be cobbled together. I’m sure you all will have plenty of opinion, some valid, some ridiculous. Reserve comment until you watch it.
Like 4 said, the courts can force them to pay. They can be sued for the money owed and it can be taken from their wages or assets. Its a legal contract. Giving a gett, on the othet hand, cannot be enforced by the american legal system because its a religeous matter and there’s separation of church and state.
All of a sudden someone speaking HALACHA and people are scared to hear the truth. People want to live in their own bubble and face the reality
Fathers (and their children) need to be protected by prenups as well, so mothers don’t prevent equal access.
The prenup only works for people who get regular salaries that can be garnished by the courts. Maybe in the modern orthodox professional world. In the Charedei world? fugget about it! People who are determined to get what they want easily can hide their earnings. How many people are off the books or can hide their income?
The Kesuba was made to discourage divorce. See the measures that the Chochimim took to discourage divorce in Kesubos 82b alone, ukaheina rabos (there are many other examples).
I give Rabbi Gutnick a lot of credit. He is standing up and doing something to help the public. Too many rabbis tend to sit in their office and spout of negative comments and letters against each other or others. Enough with the negative. We all need positive actions that will help society. I have told all my kids will sign this before they get married. If you don’t like it: then don’t sign it. But at least he is doing something to help the situation. That’s more than most rabbis can say.
how people comment that its good,
are you a “baky’ in halacha?
its scary how people just jump for anything in yidshkeit not being 100% sure it is the right thing a cording to halacha
If it was a legitimate attempt to solve a problem it would not be written as it is, making the YU”s MO Beth Din of America the sole arbiter. There are many halachic problems with this, of which Rabbi Braun touched on one. It is not proper for many reasons.
I think that the best solution is what the Israelis did, create a law that puts the husband in jail if he doesn’t want to follow the bais din instructions of giving a get. We should lobby legislatures in the USA, Canada france Argentina England and at least all countries where large concentrations of Yidn leave to pass such law. A general law should be written by lawyers and then presented to Rabbonim and lawyers in each country to make it fit to the local law and realities as well as local rabbinic authorities. This effort needs to be made… Read more »
To put power in the hands of the BDA.
which courts put the prenup in effect, the rabbinical bais din or civil courts? and divorce should be the couple’s decision, not Rabbis’. also in Israel, there is some kind of agreement that the some couples sign if there would be a divorce and yes the more modern Rabbis are doing this.
The Aguna organizations are used many times by women seeking to put their husbands under unfair pressure when they haven’t sought recourse in Bais Din and have their husbands in court. The Aguna organizations need to demand proof of the woman’s being an agunah and that negotiation was tried discreetly and failed. Ask for a court history. Have them ask for petitions and court papers from the person seeking advocacy. Perhaps this person never went to a bais din and are using court pressure and perhaps police to unfairly get their husband to bow to outrageous demands? Women commonly get… Read more »
100% of those who wanted a divorce years after signing the halachic prenup were granted a get within a 6 month period.
I completely support the halachic prenup, but I think it’s important to realize that women can be just as abusive and controlling as men when it comes to divorce. women demanding full custody is almost never in the kids best interest.
Rabbi M Gutnick BOS is a true expert in gittin, everyone should go tonight.
No #11. The biggest problem with the “prenup” is that it appoints YU’s “Beth Din of America” as the sole arbiter. They’ve tried to force divorces and very questionable gittin even when the husband just wanted cancelling because the wife wanted an immediate one. Chazal in Kesubos 82b, among other places, took many measures to prevent fast and immediate divorce precisely because of the problem and harm it causes to both sides. This goes against the foundations of Judaism and is also a power grab by that organization. That is being promoted here is very wrong.
SO IMPORTANT for MAINSTREAM lubavitchers, EVERYONE:
unfortunately NOONE is immune from this disease. Tomorrow it could be your sister, mother or daughter at the raw end CV;
yasher koach!!
Sounds like it’s going to be a fascinating shiur. I shall be attending. A pity no one in our shchuna can step up to the plate and speak with experience about such topics.
Not sure why #6 is upset. It’s a shiur not legislation. Halevai our community’s rabbonim would know how to deal with these issues.
Rabbi Gutnick has been on the Sydney Beis Din for decades. A Beis Din which deals with Gittin.
This being said he is knowledgeable about the halachik isssues with Gittin and PN.
I’m not sure if the Beis Din in CH deals with Gittin and therefore wouldn’t be as knowledgeable regarding these matters.
For those asking about why it would be permissible, maybe take the time to go to the event to hear.
RABBI GUTNICK MEANS WELL BUT E IS BEING USED BY A FEW LONERS AND OUTSIDERS WHO WANT RUIN THE FRUM WOLRD AND HALACHA AND MAKE EVERYTHING “EQUAL” FOR THE WOMEN.
WILL THEY MAKE EVERYTHING EQUAL FOR THE MEN WHEN THEY GO TO COURT? WILL THEY SIGN A PRENUP NOT TO FIGHT FOR MONEY AND FOR THE CHILDREN WHEN THEY GO TO COURT? WILL THEY SIGN A PRENUP THAT IF THE MAN WANTS OUT HE CAN JUST WALK AWAY?
BOTTOM LINE DOES THE MAN HAVE THE SAME RIGHTS AS A WOMEN? OR IS THIS A ONE SIDED FIGHT?
When you sign your Kessubah you are already “half way on your way to a divorce” bc the Kessubah specifically addresses the money payment that the man owes the lady if the marriage doesn’t last .
I am one of the organizers of this shiur and this article misrepresents what the evening will be about. Tonight’s event is simply a shiur – Rabbi Gutnick will be educating us on the challenges he has faced in his bais din as well as what Torah says about the Agunah crisis, what can and cannot be done about it, and abuse in general The pictures here imply that this evening is intimately connected with the prenup event that took place a few months ago and this isn’t the case. I’m sure the prenup will be brought up in the… Read more »
It doesn’t mention prenup anywhere. Why is that the headline? Seems people have lots of questions. They should go and ask!
Anyone can give advice – no need to ask permission for advise
we need some thing like this.
No, they can’t. The terms state that Rabbonim need to decide whether divorce is the only option, and only once they do does the prenup go into effect. What happens if some Rabbonim do and some don’t? This is what happens with plenty of cases.
While Rabbi Gutnick is a very knowledgeable man when it comes to these kind of topics he’s is way left of center of most frum rabbonim
A lone Australian Rabbi says that he holds whatever Reb Zalman Nechemia holds.Shkoach. 21st century rabbonus.
Can someone post reb Zalman Nechemia’s response or is it a blanket approval for anything asher bishem yikara. Is there biclal a response, or was this through handlers and hearsay.
Can we a get a real psak from vaad rabbonei lubavitch.
That will end it one way or another.
BS”D
if you sign one of these pn then you are half way on your way to divorce
it seems that Poskim and Botei Din representing the more right wing orthodox are not enthusiastic about the pre-nuptial agreement.
Why is that, there are many fine sensitive rabbonim in those communities, this includes the Crown Heights Beis Din and Rabbonei Chabad in Israel and London.
Isn’t it stepping on toes to go into another city and try to push halachic legislation without the support of that city’s bais din.
I have unmarried children and I like this a lot.Sounds like a start.
If they refuse then the court can do something about it – put them in jail, dock the money from their paycheck, etc.
That is the point.
It is important that discussions such as these have come to the surface. Education is truly power
does Rabbi Gutnick has permission from the local rabbinia Chabad and rabbi osdaba to come into there community and give advise?
And if they don.t pay the $150 a day, what happens next?
If they refuse get, I see them refusing to pay either.