Dear bochur,
You and your friends sound like really great people (you should probably give out your name, since I’ll bet, after this article, a lot of girls want to marry you!) But the truth is, my friends and I were a little perplexed by your op-ed.
Because the one thing that you profess to be the desire of each bochur in that discussion, who are all supposedly on varying levels of frumkeit, is the one thing, that, in the experience of me and my friends, makes very little sense.
Because you know that other part of tznius, the one that’s often forgotten? The part about behaving tzniusly? Well, us girls might have improvements to make in the way we dress, but you guys have a lot of work to do in the behavior department.
Specifically, we were discussing how many bochurim, with white shirts, black pants and beards, who were on shlichus, approached us this summer (while we were on shlichus as well) “looking for a good time.”
And no, I do not mean they wanted to learn a sicha together. It was more like… well. I’m sure you can figure it out. Suffice it to say we got out of there fast.
Yeah. Are you as shocked as we were? Bochurim invited us to “hang out” with them. Maybe they thought it would never get out? Maybe they thought that they could get away with it since they’re boys, and in high demand? We’ll never know. (Trust me, we put their names out there.)
But somehow, these “chassidish” looking guys don’t strike me as the type to want tznius girls. Why? Well, they aren’t exactly tznius themselves, although they sure had the whole “bochur look” down.
And it wasn’t just this one isolated incident. This happened multiple times to many different friends of mine throughout the summer, to friends of mine who are obviously frum and chassidish!
These same bochurim will go home, request very tznius maidelach, and get those girls, without anyone ever knowing what they are truly like, despite their chassidish dress.
Do you see the paradox here? Yes, you guys are requesting tznius girls. But guess what: us girls are requesting tznius guys, and I obviously don’t mean in dress.
(As a side point, you’re lucky you don’t have to struggle with tznius. Please don’t pretend to understand or diagnose the girls who do have trouble with this mitzvah.)
So, please remember: we want tznius guys like you want tznius girls. Before you go asking and judging, keep in mind that we’re done with letting you guys off the hook easy.
You want to challenge us to being more tznius, CHALLENGE ACCEPTED.
And now, you are welcome to accept ours.
Just a Typical Girl
Do not judge others until you have been in their exact place. Love your fellow Jew as yourself. If you see someone low do not rebuke them, show them love. We must save our criticism for ourselves. See the good in others. Only G-d knows what is in our hearts. You cannot tell a person’s level by the way they dress. Just because a male or female looks chasidishe, does not mean they are. Appearance and reality do not always coincide. And the opposite is also true. Don’t assume that someone who does not look chasidishe is not a tzaddik… Read more »
well said
what is the prime tactic to succed in combating that which is holding back the tremendous holiness that tnius brings to the world?
Torah on that topic! Torah Tavlin
announcing… the arrival of…
“Bas Melech Penima, the Rebbe on Tnius”
the first comprehensive English book from the Rebbe.
Buy it at merkaz anash.com and get a chavrusa. We need positive social pressure to have the confidence to do whats right. Be self confident, be tnius 🙂
Some of these posts should be published as op-eds, #140 and #141 for example!
The focus on Orthodox girls’ attire treats women like — objects rather than people. The truth is that the focus on Tznius in women’s clothing does seem to indicate that woman are seen as objects. But only if they present themselves that way. If you think about it, those dress codes are designed to eliminate or at least minimize the natural male response. The Halachos of Tznius in clothing are designed to eliminate those stimuli from the public square. The less skin that shows, the less chance of response. But does Judaism really see a woman as an object? No.… Read more »
A yeshiva student complained in an online letter, reported in JTA, that checks for adherence to the school’s dress code are “predatory.” She may be right. Enforcement of any standard can be taken too far. Or she may be a teenager complaining that she is forced to follow rules rather than do what she wants. We cannot comment without knowing the specifics of this situation. Naturally, some people are taking this story as a condemnation of Orthodoxy as a society that represses women with primitive dress codes. I’m not sure that is really what this story is about. I remember… Read more »
So, he’s calling for more tznius behavior, and she’s calling for more tznius behavior…. this is a GOOD THING, folks! I’m sure we could analyze the specifics of these letters and find faults all day, but let’s not miss the bigger picture: when young people recognize and want to speak against a problem that many of us are besides themselves with concern over, this is (as I said before) a GOOD THING! I just hope you (letter writers) both keep encouraging your friends, community members, future spouses, and IY”H future children to the kind of dress and behavior the Rebbe… Read more »
EVERYONE IS WRITING ABOUT JUDGING EACH OTHER
STOP!
WE JUST LEARN IN PIRKEI AVOS, THAT THERES ONLY 1 JUDGE, THE ONE ABOVE
JUST HAVE AHAVAS YISROEL AND EVERYTHING WILL FALL INTO PLACE
I’ve met some very” tznuis dressing girls” who do very untznuis things so I don’t believe you can blame it all on the clothes.Guys and girls that want to not follow the system won’t doesn’t matter what anyone says or thinks.
When you’re that harsh you think people wanna listen?
Just a joke: the boys committee has decided that we will not marry girls anymore. Challenge accepted!!!
Don’t try to always make it the guys faults I met plenty of girls this summer and during the year that went out of there way to do the same…
Though you were too soft on the guys, great response!!!
Wow, your respect for women is so admirable
I’m sure there are hundreds of women knocking down your door, “desperate’ to marry you, to cure their insatiable loneliness.
After all, who can be happy before they’re married? Apparently only men
You write: “Perhaps she is tzinius an aidele, perhaps she is not. You have no clue.” Actually I do have a clue. After all, she did write “Well, us girls might have improvements to make in the way we dress”, and “You want to challenge us to being more tznius”. If she was tznius, she wouldn’t be in the category of girls who are being asked to improve their dress and be more tznius. And she wouldn’t cut down someone who is trying to improve the disaster on our streets, without even providing chizuk to girls who are struggling with… Read more »
the whole concept of girls dressing untzinus is such a big CHILUL LUBAVITCH and not only that its chilul hashem!!
While the response is directed at boys, it doesn’t justify girls behaving unappropriately or dressing against Halacha!!! Girls need to work on themselves too. And not be looking at boys and their negative behaviour to justify theirs. Anyway, I believe there is a problem that exists here and needs to be addressed. But I also think that we need to draw attention to the positive points. And not dwell on negativity. Positive parenting is more effective and works much better than accusation and blame or guilt feelings… When we see a young boy or girl, the first thing we judge… Read more »
i totally agree with u
arshas Ha’azinu 5730, the Rebbe discussed Rav Adda bar Ahava, one of the sages of the Talmud, telling a story about him, and teaching the lesson to be learned from it (Free Translation): In Tractate Berachos (20a) the Gemara relates: “There was the case of Rav Adda bar Ahava who saw a woman [he thought she was Jewish] wearing a red head-dress [which is Non-Tznius] in the street, and thinking that she was a Jewish woman, he immediately went over and tore it from her.” The immediate lesson to be learned from the story is, that when we see a Jewish woman who is going in clothing… Read more »
Just spoke to a friend from boro park who was by kosher fest in ch he says you can’t tell the difference between jewish girls and goyishe girls in ch the way they dress. .. the ones who don’t dress with tznius you are
anti GD
anti torah
anti rebbe
anti Shlichus
anti morality
anti brachos
and choteh umachti which according to rambam there is no teshuva! If you passed by 20-50 people a day and we’re machshil them with looking at you not dressed tznius x 365 days there’s no way you can undo this! !!!
Guys, go do something of your life, learn tora, work, plant a tree…
This stupid argument in this website wont take u anywhere
“its sad that boys are in demand”
its not sad its just the way it has been since creation like it states clearly in gemarah gittin that its the girl who is desparate to get married NOT the other way around
You know rabbonim say those writing comments should leave their name. Well, that be quite problematic here where there are bouchrim and girls conversing. Just an observation.
מה כל הצעקות והוויכוחים?!
אני זוכר כמה וכמה פארברעינגס שהמשפיעים אומרים וחוזרים.. ” בחור לא צריך להסתובב ב קינגסטון… אתה צריך משהו..תעשה סיבוב..”.. ולמה כל זה??. … פשוט..כולם יודעים את המצב העגום של “kingston beach”נערות שהולכות בלבוש מינימלי על
ואני לא מתכוון לאלא מאפריקא
this while wntire fight is stupid! people should just be who they want to be….
This conversation has bochurim and meidelach .. I don’t think this is very tznius this is the main problem but very nice article really got the point out you pass with flying colors
Is it ok for boys and girls to have a back and forth like this on the web?
All this talk about being average and typical (or atypical) is nonsense.
Everyone knows that only the cream of the crop get published on collive
Wow, your comments are so true. This is so true, people don’t like to admit but we are facing a real problem. Our tznius levels are far worse than regular chareidi circles. Something must be done. Not soon but now.
Hey, newsflash? WE’RE ALL DIFFERENT. yeah. so all us single guys and girls are at varying levels of religion. these articles strike me as very general. maybe instead of speaking for your fellow bochurim or girls, you can focus on being the type of person you would want to build a jewish home with….
Wow. After I read you comment I couldn’t read any others. You are completely irrational. It’s from people with your opinion who make people not want to be Tznuius. Chabad is all about looking on the inside! You could never be a Shlucha, do you have any idea of what types of things these people do and look like?
Maybe it’s the fact that guys are not as eager to get married young, maybe its the demographics but i think that the numbers are inflated artificially and that if the data is examined carefully you will find that there are similar numbers on both sides The issue is that guys feel more relaxed about the issue and are in no hurry to get hitched and as a result they also feel that no matter how they behave in the summer, comes fall they are back on the saddle again and whatever crazy “demands” they have should be met of… Read more »
Eagerly waiting in anticipation
To all the people that are annoyed at this. And think that this is stupid. Well, it’s not. I’ll tell you why. All the time girls are expected to have better behavior then boys, when in should be equal. On simchas Torah the men get drunk and do a chillul HaShem and no one says anything. Girls always have to be quiet and listen to what the man has to say or just stay quiet all the time and do house work or other things. And let the man take care of the real business. The men want girls who… Read more »
I am going to use this post to talk to the Shaddchanim: Giving profiles, and resumes to each side, does not constitute making a Shidduch. How about trying to put back a personal touch, a real understanding, an honest and truthful manner of communicating, and really thinking that this suggestion has the potential to actually work, and make it work!!! Exactly the PART that the SHADDCHAN has to PLAY: When it’s his or her turn to act, When he has to come on stage, he disappears, and is nowhere to be found. Making sure each side is being communicated to… Read more »
I have read in a lot of comments here and in the original op-ed that it is sometimes hot in the summer and it is hard to dress tzniusdik – that is the excuse for not wearing tznius. I dont understand, when it comes to davenning minacha or saying chitas etc.. everything is okay, there are no excuses, “its too hard” or “im too lazy”. But when it comes to dress with tznius everyone are avoiding the subject… “I am lazy, and it is hot outside” was the excuse I’ve seen on this topic. Wake up and smell the coffee!
Ditto
It is so sad to see so many people hurting,thath this is about if olny we could accept that we all have thing we have to deal with let’s us instead of trying to hurt each other lets us help each other have a good new year
the difference is is it that most guys expect a tznius girl irrelevant to how they dress and behave and not on the actual level they are on…
I think it’s about time that people make a decision in their life
Either u guys are gonna be chassidish or not… If u aren’t gonna be.. Then fine (not sayingitsright but whatever) BUT if u are gonna be then BE!!! If u are gonna wear the garb then u gotta act the act;) its enough with all these “chassidish
“A Mother’s Advice to Fathers” and the highly anticipated sequel “A Father’s Advice to Mothers”
I know I see why we’ve got this so called “Shidduch crises” the generation seems to be extremely immature FULL STOP
I may be also since I read this article and commented…G-d should help us
quote: “approached us this summer (while we were on shlichus as well) “looking for a good time.” “Suffice it to say we got out of there fast”. And then it says: “(Trust me, we put their names out there.)” Let me Analyze for a moment. 1) If you got out of there fast, there shouldn’t have been enough time to get their names, and if there was, if wasn’t fast enough for a chasid, even a short bull shov is off limits. 2) if you were working at the same Shliach and that’s how you found out their names, that’s… Read more »
why does every third idiot have to say that the two writers should go on a date. they have absolutely NOTHING in common besides for the fact that they both wrote a stupid op-ed on COL.
There are two important factors to think about. 1) every person can and must develop theirown personal relationship with Hashem, just LOOKING chassidish doesn’t make one a chassid. 2) Regardless of whether or not one has developed that relationship with Hashem, (and whatever that means to the person), he/she also has a responsibility as a community member to respect the purity of the environment. Just as it is not fair to subject someone to the ill effects of smoke from your cigarette, so too is it unfair to subject others to what is harmful to their spiritual environment. Wouldn’t you… Read more »
Some Bochurim have issues, now what? where do we go from here?
I feel the Rabbonim should do something about all the women with skin-tight dresses, short skirts, red nail polish/lipstick, and sheitlach down to their waists. These women would never be able to work in a law, financial, or accounting firm, nor as doctors. The look is totally unprofessional and very vulgar, even by goyish standards. Our young women are the worst offenders, even more than the girls who may dress shorter but I personally find their mod styles more punk and rebellious. There is a spirit of the law as well, and some of these women may be technically covered… Read more »
Tznius starts with dress. If you dress like you are looking for a good time then the boys will treat you that way. Wake up girls! This isn’t about blaming people, this is about taking responsibility for your own behavior. Hashem knows men have a weakness which is why we must do our utmost to respect that IE in terms of Tznius. If you dress in tight pencil skirts that don’t cover your knees, and shirts that stop above the elbow, with the new fashionable neck line that is inches below the collar bone what message are you sending? Everyone… Read more »
This girl is NOT ready to get married! This is the most immature article I have ever read. She sounds like she”s in second grade still saying ” I know you are but what am I?”
Thank you Ms. For taking us back to second grade. Instead of addressing a single point the bouchor made in his article, you took a defensive stance and decided that your problems exist because bouchorim also have problems. You might have missed this part of his op-ed so I decided to post it here:”Before that, I feel that its very important to say the following. We all have tests and struggles in our life. No one is perfect. Believe me, I can write a whole op-ed on the problems bochurim are having these days, problems that might even be worse… Read more »
You expressed truthful the way that boys are given an upper hand in the game.
They can wear a white shirt and then, carte blanche, they can have whatever history they want.
That you for defending our honor!
The best part of this article and the one that instigated it is the beautiful writing. Nothing fancy, but the spelling was correct as was the punctuation and grammar. I almost don’t care about the content!!! This alone gives me hope for the future of Lubavitch.
to the statement “Boys want to marry serious girls. Girls who have never had a romantic relationship with another”…just because a girl got caught up in a somewhat “relationship” does NOT mean she isn’t serious! it can be the most typical, tznuis and aidle girl walking down the street, a girl that has not even been in any sort of scene. she just happened to get caught up! everyone makes mistakes, and the important thing is that we learn from our mistakes…so before you go label a girl (that has or has had a relationship) as “unserious”, or loose, just… Read more »
There are men in full beards who curse like there is no tomorrow and women in short skirts who sit and do Chitas every day and collect names for the next challah bake. You cannot generalize. Yes, in an ideal world people would all look and act the way you would like them to, but the bottom line is you don’t know what’s going on inside and it’s wrong to paint non tznius women (not GIRLS) as ‘damaged’.
very nice article but I disagree a little bit but I just want to tell you women you should be ashamed of yourself and you’re destroying all the boys they’re trying to keep the tradition and it’s really not fair I hope you realize that there are other Jews out there they’re making fun of you women and young teenage girls who dress inappropriately. I hope you are satisfied
if you look for problems i swear you will always find it
Looks to me like we have a shidduch. Can’t we get these two writers to marry each other?
Bring down the age. I was a bochur 22 and my parents refused to let me do shiduchim. Because i didn’t have semicha. These boys want to go on shiduchim but because they dont have semicha or still need to go on shlichus etc. The rabonim paskened and the Rebbe wished the shiduc age would go down. Read shiduch crisis, good book, frum parents treat their children like little children that is why bochrim act this way. My parents met not through a shadchan and r happily married. As one of the comments said grow up and i strongly recomend… Read more »
Great article
I agree
..is that they either look like rolls or like models.
Im a bit embarrassed for whoever wrote this. Im a frum girl myself and I also struggle with tznius but being defensive doesn’t make us any better… Its true that some guys act in a not tznius manner and they should work on that. I agree no bochur should be judging any girl on tznius, a mitzvah they can’t possibly understand, but I also don’t think shifting the blame helps. Bochurim should improve themselves, but that doesn’t take away that us girls do have to work on our tznius. Be open to accept constructive criticism, his trying to tell us… Read more »
Look at the leadership in Lubavitch today and you’ll see why were going downhill…
Maybe its time to discuss these and other issues openly with young teenagers allowing them to be open about their thoughts and feelings and they will come to good decisions on their own which is healthier than it being pushed on them.
“Maybe they thought that they could get away with it since they’re boys, and in high demand? We’ll never know. (Trust me, ***we put their names out there***.)”
You are going to ruin someone’s life and name for doing that?! Giving out names of people who allegedly did something?! Let them be boys, and if you didn’t want to do anything then stay away or just say no!
I thought I come in to this website for news in Lubavitch! What is this you keep putting up? NO ONE CARES! Let everyone live how they want to, and send them to yeshiva and seminary if they want to be good.
#hashtag
Correct that tznous is not only a womans clothes
A man flashing the latest fashion sporting the latsst glasses & driving the newest & largest car is very untzniusdik
“One who is lowly and crass does not sense his own crassness and lowliness”. Let’s inspire not preach……..
I Am also a bochur now without getting in to details. The fact is that there are many girls unfortunately that do not get dressed tzniusdik it’s sad to see a new generation where they are not being as cautious about it as we should now even if it’s just because your lazy it still didn’t make sense look also is bochurim are not going to wear hats and jackets because we are lazy and it’s too hot note think about it hat and jacket Is not halacha maybe the hat beshaas hatfiloh is needed and still the avg. Bochur… Read more »
That stories like this are taking our minds away from the more depressing green news in ch. Also I waana thank all of the typical bochurim for reading my mind, it felt kinda weird but I feel like a better person now
The reason the bochurim even asked you about having a ‘good time’ is bec of the way you were dressed …..
And to #28 there is no way that it is OK for bochurim at the age of 22 to start a conversation with maidels. You have to at least be 27.
Didn’t see anything “controversial” about the bochur’s piece. This one’s good too. Agree with the commentator who said to make a shidduch between the two authors.
It should be pointed out that the fact that some boys have serious yetzer harah problems, which they need to overcome so that they can be fully blessed with a happy married life – problems which have cheapened marriages, doesn’t mean that the bochurim who value tznius are wrong. The fact that Jack eats pork doesn’t mean that Yosef should lower his standards of Lubavitcher shechita.
The fact that there is so much back and forth between bochrim and girls does not seem to tznuis to me. Get your act together.
You sound like my type! 😉 I’m gonna let Yonah Avtzon know and if you let him know who you are we might meet!
Hi Firstly I would like to say that while the writer has a point modesty is not just for girls and the way they dress but also for guys and the way they act. I would like to float something out there. I don’t think people will want to hear it because it rings true. As a little background I am a chilled chabad boy in his 20s. I think that when people look and harp on a lack of tznius in the community they are missing reality. The reality is that there are many problems with our youth. You… Read more »
Is this some shteching campaign?
what’s so refreshing
i agree with #3 grow up
Next time you got to do laundry go to the laundrmat
your confusing your computer 4 a washing machine
I don’t watch movies but I could say plenty of bachurim do and they think there chasidish cause they know the latest tv show and they drink mashke and they smoke and there part of a whats app chat that posts a picture of a chasid … Wake up smell the coffe and never turn on a tv screen
Wow you really have no idea of what’s going on. Just because someone doesn’t touch his beard does not make him a yiras shamaim. Someone looking a certain way does not mean anything these days. There are so many people dressing a certain way because they are afraid of how they will be viewed meanwhile g-d knows what this person is doing!
If they would of invited you to learn a sicha, would you have gone?
Perfectly said number 58. Wow! Moshiach right now! Nature!
Dear “typical girl”
Your article does not reflect a typical bochur at all. as a shlucha i have had many very fine typical bochurim over the years and have not had any girls “report” such kind of behavior back to us. The reason for this is because I only have girls come to me who are dressed not only according to the letter of the law, but also the ruach of the law. There was obviously something about your behavior that made you approachable to these bochurim. The blame is on you and your friends.
Think about your behavior.
Its about time we start having a frank talk about the isusse we face just be sure we don’t taint anyone else in the process.
Yours a true lover of the first amendment.
If this girls putting the names out is what you mean I there were even 2 people there other them them its public info not loshon harah
Are u kidding ???i think it would be a pretty bad shiduch
Look at his face and his beard. They will show you how much of a yiras shomyim he is.
This Is terrible. We need moshiach right now! No more. Just moshiach now!
what a mom!
Judging by what the ‘typical’ people are writing I guess I’m not typical.
An atypical bochur
Haha love it!
To #22..Very well said! You read my mind and put it in writing.
-A typical girl
זה טעות עקורה משורשה הבחורים שהתחילו איתך התחילו איתכם בגלל שהייתם לא צנועות מה אתם מצפות תתלבשו צנועות
חוץ מזה הבחור אמר את מה שאת אמרת במילים כחרות אז שוב תתלבשי חסידית כי כשאת לא צנועה זה מעורר מקום מאוד שחור בבחור
WOW WELL SAID!
No wonder the shidduch system isn’t working, and there is a shidduch crisis. I can’t believe people still think it’s a mystery. If everyone would just relax, take a deep breath and stop focusing on everyone elses flaws, and focus on their own, I believe we would be in a much better place.
Everyone is so self centered and self righteous when it comes to tznius, but lashon hara, for example.. that’s completely okay. GET OVER YOURSELVES
You seem a little presumptuous of what the girl who wrote the article is like. Perhaps she is tzinius an aidele, perhaps she is not. You have no clue.
And on another note you are just furthering her point when you point out how easy men have it to come back and do teshuva.
if you could put yourself in men or boy’s shoes, to feel what it’s like to have to go pray or learn or go to the mikvah and and have to face these immodest women (more women then girls)sorry but it’s a fact how can they have clean thoughts ? the ” don,t look” reply Is irrelevant you want men to walk and close their eyes gimme a break, I wish these women would dress like that at home instead of when gong out; women can feel offended by one or a few tznius signs on a few trees but… Read more »
For a girl not to be tsnius is akin to a bochur not to put on teffilin by day. Would a girl marry a bochur who doesn’t lein teffilin?
I have to agree with the girl about what she said but we absolutely can not go around and say that all boys act in that manner of wanting to have fun some buchorim are very seeious indeed and it wouldn’t be fair to give them abad name since they are from and good boys — but also for girls a girl cannot just think that she can watch movies and other stuff while her husband will be totally frum — a husband and wife have to be on the same level
Just get to the point I see many couples walking from shul the girls with tight dresses short sleeves high heels they look cheap not beautiful boys these women are the mothers of your children we were givin a gift of the torah no one’s perfect but be honest with yourself you know what is right and the future of your family is in your hands
If you would dress according to halocho you wouldn’t be calling unwanted attention to yourself. Just saying….
Thank you, you are an amazing writer, and thank you for showing our perspective.
this is my first time writing a comment on col but this is getting out of hand, why are bocherim telling girls what to do, and same vice versa ? i mean you are who you are. it will be nice if everyone is modest but that is obviously not the case. i cant give suggestions because i didn’t start dating yet, but when it comes time to go dating YOUR the one going to pick what you want so please don’t jump down everyone’s throat, and think that everyone is for you and expect to chose the prettiest apple… Read more »
The bochurs article hit you where it hurt. It shows in the way your response is written. You didn’t write how bochrim should stop judging girls etc. Rather you chose to throw a punch back at them, in such an immature way. Of course everyone does things wrong. We all do. (and btw really disgusting to “put the names of the guys out there” who wanted to hang out with you. Would you like it if the bochrim made a list of all the girls that wore short skirts?) The point I’m making is that guys and girls all have… Read more »
Don’t want to disrupt the party but if anybody really thinks that Tzniut is the biggest prob in chabad/crown hts they are deeply, sorely mistaken!!
What case did you make to begin with?
I definitely agree that these two can be a perfect match! Don’t be shyyy… C’mon, put your names so we can all celebrate!! And look girl, if you don’t want him, I’ll take him!
Why a Shadchan? Collive can do a great job at that, I’m sure!
Hands down the line of the year. “They were looking for a good time… and no not learning a sicha if you know what i mean… LOL!!! #youreawesome #keepemcomin
I second that! 🙂
That was an eye opener.
I couldn’t have framed it better or more accurately.
Looks like almost everyone is missing the boat…
If collive put up just a big picture of the word “shidduch”, it would have at least 300 comments.
there original article was…frustrating. i’m glad there has been a response, but this was not the right response.
The woman is the Akeres haBayis. A good woman will raise good children, even if the man is just another guy. So even if those guys were simple-minded bochurim, they still would be right and well to want a good woman to raise their children. That you spread loshon hora about them reflects negatively on you. You are probably jealous that they will get a good girl who will probably be happy with her simple-minded bochur instead of someone like you who puts on a show of being good but occupies herself with and spreads evil about others. You cannot… Read more »
haha was thiking that same exact thing
A serious question. Why are you so judgmental?
Ok. Back to the basics… Modest dress is Basic Morality. This means to say that… Women who dress immodestly are conducting themselves immorally. Visibly married women who dress immodestly are encouraging immorality in others in addition to their own immoral conduct. We all know this. Even the secular world knows this. In secular failure to be properly clothed constitutes a felony [the worst category of crime], and makes one an offender. It’s called ‘indecent exposure’, and we all would consider such public displays immoral. Many in the secular world have been trying to limit what is considered indecent to the… Read more »
So basically I can fool folks with my outer appearnace because they think someone who dresses well is good on the inside, but I’m just dressing in a conformity uniform.
Take break.
You are absolutely correct about this. There’s a dimension of tznius conduct by bochrim which, in the example you cited of various bochrim wanting to “hang out”, needs to be worked on by such bochrim. But not all bochrim do that. Not by a long shot. I’m a bochur, so if I may, please allow me to give my view on this. Feel free to disagree, but you might not, seeing as how what you’ve written definitely resonated with me. Maybe the same will apply vice versa. For a bochur, even if he’s a very dedicated, Chassidish oriented, hard-working person,… Read more »
Why don’t you give your contact details to Yonah Avtzon. Perhaps you two should meet over coffee or in a nice lobby somewhere. It sounds like this shidduch can actually work
Truly brilliant!
Love both letters btw. Great and mature perspectives.
love this! thanks!
please stop the public laundry-washing. And stop making it sound like “the typical” bochur behaves so disdainfully. When so many anon articles are published, we start getting a bit exxaggerational. bochurim, help your fellow bochurim; girls, help your fellow girls. and in doing so, you will also help each other. waiting for moshiach now. let’s make it happen.
But this doesn’t contradict anything said in the original op-ed, and it also is no excuse for the way women dress. It is so easy to say “Don’t tell me to do this because YOU do that”, but who gains? We must realize we have a problem and fix it, they must realize they have a problem and fix it. One doesn’t excuse the other, and if we each wait around for the OTHER one to change than nothing will happen. Keep that in mind.
Don’t get me wrong, I know there’s too much “STUFF” happening when kids go on shlichus, because not every situation is idea, not every shaliach is a yeirei shomayim, not every 20 year old knows how to behave without supervision, etc, etc, etc. But it’s a lot easier for a boy to do teshuva. A boy with long shaggy hair, pants too low, etc. is not necessarily transgressing a d’oraisa. But every 4 inches of exposed flesh on your body IS a separate violation of a d’oraisa! A boy who R”L goes off, does teshuva, and is now frum again… Read more »
“Before that, I feel that its very important to say the following. We all have tests and struggles in our life. No one is perfect. Believe me, I can write a whole op-ed on the problems bochurim are having these days, problems that might even be worse than the tznius issue. So bear in mind I’m not judging, I’m simply giving an honest observation about a serious issue”
– From the article ” A Bochur’s Advice to Girls”
I’m sorry lady. I think you don’t grasp the situation here. I’m not condoning what happened to you this summer, but from your story it seems that a girl can find a bochur that fits her level and they still will have the right outward look. Just because they aren’t for you doesn’t mean that someone out there isn’t looking for a boy who wants to have some fun, maybe cutting corners a little, yet still wears a hat and jacket. Unfortunately, this doesn’t seem to be the case the other way around. Its not wrong to outwardly look chasidish… Read more »
Are the feelings of bochurim regarding what they want no longer valid!?! Should bochurim now lower their expectations for a good mother for their children because boys will be boys!?! It is justifiable to equate a temporary lapse in judgment (on the part of a few bochurim) with all day public infractions of girls on a regular basis as their way of life!?! Or is this some girl’s attempt to say “but boys are boys and they do bad stuff sometimes too, so this is whats going to happen when you say bad stuff about girls”!?! Hahahahahaha haaaahahahahaaa………. Yes, the… Read more »
the one with the bochur writing and the girl.. sounds like a god shidduch
As a parent looking into boys for my daughter, how do I find out if a bochur I’m looking into is involved in these types of things?
One should not think: Must I act with such a tremendous degree of tznius so that my children will become Kohanim Gedolim; why should I care if my children grow up to be regular priests. Furthermore, all Jews are holy! Herein is the lesson from the lighting of the Menorah, which was to be done specifically in the Beis HaMikdash. This teaches us that if at all possible we are to increase the amount of illumination even in those places that are already most holy. Here as well: If a woman is granted the ability to train her sons that… Read more »
way to go Sara!
I have already stated my opinion on many occasions that in present generations covering one’s hair with a kerchief will not last, for each and every time the woman is put to the test whether to cover all her hair, or just part of it, etc., so that she not be embarrassed by those who scoff (although it may only be a figment of her imagination, and sometimes it is actually so). This is not at all the case with a sheitel , for it is impossible to remove the sheitel when one is at a gathering and the like.… Read more »
Please put your name as I have many shidduchim for you!
It is not always good to hide behind yourself! Plus we now know you are a perfect girl and always dress tsnuis! well done
just probably not ones who spend 4 hours analyzing from all angles why women dont dress modestly
My father-in-law related that the city of Frankfurt had very religious Jews their piety made a name for them over all of Germany. This notwithstanding the fact that previously Frankfurt was filled with freethinkers. All this came about in the merit of three women who were firm in their resolve to wear a sheitel , observe family purity and provide their children with a kosher education. This had an effect on the men and other women. With the passage of time the community of Frankfurt changed for the better.
From a Sicha of the Rebbe, Rosh Chodesh Elul 5714
I’ll start this by saying to all those who will be writing less than positive comments, these articles aren’t about us, but because we’re trying to help others out of sincere Ahavas Yisroel. Although I don’t know the typical bochur who wrote the precious article, I think what I say about myself can apply to him as well. So please remember, we aren’t judging any of you, but we’d really like to see more of us improving in Torah, Halacha, and Chassidus as Hashem and the Rebbe wishes… I dress 100% (should I dare to say 110% because I keep… Read more »
Sadly very true…
In response to your letter of the 23rd of Iyar, in which you ask my advice regarding your brother having male children, and healthy children:
…. You should also find out from your brother whether his wife is careful to observe Kisui HaRosh. For the Zoharic statement is known, that a woman’s observance of tznius and especially Kisui HaRosh brings about “blessings of above and blessings of below, with wealth, with children and grandchildren, etc.”
Excerpt from Igros Kodesh, Vol. VII, p. 259
Its a sad but true point that boys are in high demand, therefore they can do as they wish and will still be sought out by girls.
With regard to your writing about covering your hair there is absolutely no question regarding this matter: Since G-d clearly said that for the benefit of the wife, her husband and their children the hair should not be revealed, surely it is so. Thus it is impossible that by keeping G-d’s commandments the head should hurt, etc. For example, when you write that wearing a sheitel makes your head hurt, it is possible that: A) This is a falsehood of the Evil Inclination who does not want Mitzvos to be performed and does not want Jews to be showered with… Read more »
May G-d help you that you perceive the truth, that acting in this way is not so difficult, nor is it something about which you should be ashamed, Heaven forfend. Be proud of your strength that you are not abashed that when you walk in the street your friends and acquaintances perceive that here walks a Jewish woman who adheres to the “Laws of Moshe and Yisroel” so much so, that you do not desire to conceal it. Be proud that your children know that they are different from all other Nations, that they have received the Torah, a “Torah… Read more »
So there are guys who were the garb and go to movies, there are girls who fake it too! How can a generalization be put on all boys that they are fakers? I would also be shocked if boys that are walking the walk would be so disrespectful as to unbashfully approach a girl and ask to hang out. BUT many boys are NOT like that so to make an excuse like that is just a tad small minded. On another note: It is so of much important to read the WORDS OF THE REBBE to see exactly the causes… Read more »
All I can say is
GROW UP!
BOTH OF YOU!
well said. I think many beis rivka girls now know what its like to ”talk to boys.” Best response, good for you.
Short and to the point!!!!!!!!
So refreshing!
Hello everyone, I know I’m 7 years late, I’m not sure how I came across this article, but I can’t stay quiet, Women should know that according to the dedicated Hasidic way, a women who dresses un-tzniusly, will חס ושלום receive the עונש for all the חטאים (sins) she has caused any men to commit, except for the עונש of the חטא of dressing un-tzniusly, this does not mean that the men who commit the חטא will not have to give a דין וחשבון, they definitely will, but the women who dress un-tzniusly are considered to be the ones who made him do… Read more »