Sep 7, 2011
Dear Chabad Bochur...

Shidduchim SOS: A Lubavitch girl who is "sick and tired of dating drama" has 5 things to tell bochurim in shidduchim.

From the COLlive Inbox:

Yes, another exasperated single girl in her early 20's completely fed up with the shidduch system.

Writing this will probably not change anything but how else do I make you aware of what we are going through? How else do I express the pain you have so often caused by being completely oblivious?

Of course I am generalizing. I am sure that many of you are very mature high-quality bochurim that are thoughtful, responsible and sensitive. (Although I am yet to discover where you all are hiding!)

I can imagine that it's fun to be a single bochur, with few responsibilities and no cares in the world. Settling down and building a family can be daunting. It's not necessarily something you desire as much as us Venetians who are all about love, connection, communication and relationships.

But I naively assume that when you do enter the dating world, marriage is something you are ready to step into with maturity and responsibility.

It hurts me to see my mature, strong, intelligent, capable, talented and beautiful friends dating these unmotivated, lazy and simple boys who will dismiss them because they are "too intellectual," "not put together enough" or "can't cook."

These are boys who have lines of girls waiting to date them because they profess to be a great balance of chassidish and down-to-earth, and are often neither.

There are too many of us out there who have so much to offer and are left pained by rejection, dismissal, lack of concern.

I know that you have no intention of hurting me or any of my friends. I agree that it is often our own fault. Our heads work in overdrive while dating, and being a step ahead in our minds is sometimes the cause of disappointment.

So I asked of you:

1. Don't date if you are not ready to get married. Don't let your parents pressure you into it being the right time. It is not fair to us girls who are serious and dating for a few years to go out with someone who has little interest.

2. Be committed. When you make a commitment to date, don't leave us hanging. Push off your business trips, meetings or any vacations you had planned and show us that you are as committed to making this work as we are.

3. Be real. On a date, don't lie or minimize the truth because you are concerned we may get turned off. Be truthful with with us and most importantly with yourself. Unless of course you can keep up the 'show' for the rest of your lives.

4. Know what you want. Many of us are strongly emotional and if you are looking for a "handbag" or "trophy wife," please make sure to see a picture of the girl before you waste our time going out or just let us know so that we can stay away from you with a 10 foot pole.

5. Don't keep us hanging. If you have no interest, don't pretend that you do. Dragging it out will only hurt us more. We need to know where we are standing so that our heads don't whirlwind down the aisle when you are still unsure. If it's a no, then it's a no. And if there are concerns, let us know.

Sick And Tired Of Dating Drama

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Opinions and Comments
a bochur
I think this applies to girls as much as boys i have dated girls who have been on vacation in the middle as well as only going out because parents push them into it. it goes both ways. But i do agree that if ur not interested dont go out again just to make the shadchan feel good
(9/7/2011 12:57:53 PM)
from another girl
sorry, either you don't know what you're looking for, or you have the wrong shadchan...
(9/7/2011 12:59:54 PM)
can a guy please write what is expected from the girls?? two way street!
(9/7/2011 1:04:43 PM)
(9/7/2011 1:16:45 PM)
No name
I'm a 25 year old Bochur, and I'm on the dating scene for a year, and I want to let you know ( the writer ) that I feel the girls are just as guilty!

Firstly I'm very honest from the start what I'm all about,and I go out with girls and then they back out, based on things that were clear on my resume before we even met!!! That's called not dating for marriage purposes.

Second, I was recently dating someone that would smile, and say what a great time their having, date after date and then after agreeing to continue one morning texted me her Mashpia said she should stop, " you tell me who's not dating for real " the boys or te girls?

3. They say the guys have so many offers and that their picky, that's just simply not the case, I have money , I'm popular and I get alot of weird suggestions, and plenty of rejections ( they will not even give me a date, with no explanation ).

To sum it up the guys are taken advantage of just as much as the girls.
(9/7/2011 1:18:57 PM)
a bochur
3 is right!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
(9/7/2011 1:20:10 PM)
i think comment number 1 and Sick And Tired Of Dating Drama should go out. Perfect! im being serious here
(9/7/2011 1:22:32 PM)
early 20's bochur.......
I am in my early 20's and though i have not started dating yet i have to agree with this article for the simple fact that guys can be very immature and honestly not ready to date for the right reasons. Many guys feel that they have to show a girl that "macho man"act and try to be all tough and in control when really they are far from that and it turns a girl off.

I think girls just wanna see guys who will respect them and make them feel appreciated which many guys have issues with because thats more of just being real about who you are when they are trying to be the exact opposite (macho man).

i agree with the 1st, 2nd, 4th, and 5th idea but the third one i truly believe works both ways. girls as do guys have a problem with being real all the way through... if written on a resume that the girl writes she covers her elbows and knees when really deep inside her heart she cant stand being tznius and most certaintly will not be tznius as her life carries on is not being real. it should be an open dialogue as to whats really in your heart and not whats just written on a piece of paper even if it may be the truth on the outside. (like i said before its the same problem with guys as well)

thank you for this article and sorry for my ramblings!
(9/7/2011 1:22:45 PM)
Superiority complex
It works both ways, a lot of girls these days think that they are intellectually superior to most Bocherim and will not deign to go out with a Bocher who actually followed the Rebbe’s instructions NOT TO GO TO COLLEGE.
Until the girls stop looking down on the guys who didn’t go to college, this “crisis” will not be resolved.
(9/7/2011 1:24:24 PM)
It is really below my dignity to respond to such a letter, but I am so appalled at the authors tone that I feel compelled to.

Although for the most part everything she lists is true, her tone of voice and approach are disgusting.

"I am sure that many of you are very mature high-quality bochurim that are thoughtful, responsible and sensitive. (Although I am yet to discover where you all are hiding!)" - How stupidly general is that statement?!? How thoughtless and rude to the tens, if not hundreds, of Bochurim that I know who all seem to be hiding from you?!?

With all due respect to the writer, she should do some serious soul searching before she continues to date. Getting married with such a condescending attitude about boys could be dangerous.
(9/7/2011 1:24:50 PM)
For boys only
The gemara kedushin 2:b says that the way of a man is to look for a wife. Do your job and contact me. I am a shadchan. The Rebbe gave me a bracha to do so while standing in line for dollars in 1989. Please contact me at I'm serious about my work. You also have a job. Be serious too.
As for the girls, you can e-mail your profile with references to me. Perhaps we can make a few shidduchim with Hashem's help. Shaliach.
(9/7/2011 1:25:37 PM)
The Shadchonim are the cause of all Shiduchim problems, and if while thier reading my comment they feel insulted they should get real jobs, I will explain hat I mean.

A boy or girl reaches marriage age and they call the pollular Shadchan, what usually happens is they meet you or speak with you for a cinsultation and then u fill outba form ad leave them with money that they oficaily take u on as a client.

Now you leave thier home, an think your on the way to dating, well " are u in for a surprise " a few weeks usually go by and they won't even call you, so then you call them and they say well I was looking into something that just fell through, then there is the rebound ( boy or girl ) someone they suggest just that it looks like thier helping, it's usually the opposite of what your looking for, and when u complain they say, u see your being very picky!
(9/7/2011 1:27:30 PM)
Keep It Coming
Thank you for this article, I agree with what you are saying, I think it is very important for boys to know what girls want and vice versa.
So as long as these articles are respectful I think that whoever has good advise or feedback should please post it so that we can come to a better understanding of each other.
(9/7/2011 1:28:25 PM)
Another point...
Thank you to whoever wrote this article. You brought up very valid issues but I think it goes the same for girls and boys.

It seems to me from the little experience I have of dating that some individuals (not just the boys) are more interested in just moving on to the next stage of life and getting married without really having their heart in the right place.

If you want to marry someone you have to invest time getting to know the person and not just talking about yourself or "selling yourself" you have to show the other person that you are generally interested in them and that you have what it takes to make a caring, respectful, and mature spouse.

Don't waste time on your dates telling hundreds of stories about yourself just to fill the pauses.

Ask questions to the other person.

Get to know them and they will hopefully respond in kind.

That is what dating is all about after all, not about going to restaurants, arcades, and basketball games - do that once you are married and you already KNOW that this is someone you want to spend a lot of time with.
(9/7/2011 1:29:49 PM)
Dating is Hard
Of course this girl is writing from a girls perspective, after all she is the one writing. And yes you are right that it is a two way street. Dating is hard for girls and boys a like. And both sexes need to take into account the other parties feelings. One thing I will say however, is that some boys (this is not a generalization) have more offers than some girls being that there are more girls on the shidduch scene. Regardless, boy or girl, you need to push through and g-d willing you will find your bashert very soon!
(9/7/2011 1:37:15 PM)
Rabbi Mattis Kantor Eastern Parkway
The problem is in the detail.
The word.
A goyishe concept.
The focus is on dating.
Dating implies shooting at fish in a barrel.
Churning the multiple outings (to pleasant places.).
Eventually whining on a blog site.
Get real chevra. We are not Modern Orthodox (yet?).
Any proposal is min HaShamayim. Not just a fisherman (shadchan) pointing at a fish in the barrel and saying "Hey try that one. He looks good."
It should be a meeting.
Almost like a business meeting (they can be pleasant enjoyable also.)
Thorough research has already been done (the boy or girl, parents, family or friends have done.)
A meeting of two people who have been told (and research has confirmed) that they would make a good couple.
No surprises here. You did the research and know he is a lazy bum, but has a very good heart (that is quite common). A good heart is primary to the marriage. When there is a problem you are dealing with a kind person who can be sympathetic to your needs.

Why do I suspect that the problem is already in the parents hashkafa.
(9/7/2011 1:45:10 PM)
I just went through this!! Dated a guy for over two months who couldn't make up his mind. Here I am hurt and left in the dust.
A) He was "dating for marriage" and wasn't ready to get married
B)Couldn't commit
C)Couldn't be real with himself (be a man and stand up to his words)
D) Has/had no clue what he wants from life
E) Left me hanging

I'm hurt and tired of this game. Let's stop this from happening to others!
(9/7/2011 1:57:01 PM)
18 year old bochur:
i dont know anything about shidduchim, but what you all teach me is to find out what marriage is all about before i plan on go out, and i suggest all you guys do the same. - unlike a guy that told me he cant get married b/c he cant find a hot enough girl!
(9/7/2011 2:00:22 PM)
To comment about the truth
There is a Shaschan in crown heights that charges $ 250.00 dollars, all he does is send u resumes if you ask for one,

Bkitzur, my Chasidishe friends see a girl in te bagel shop they find pretty they call that guy and he supplies info, if that's not cray what is.
(9/7/2011 2:00:36 PM)
You Girls have the same issue.
i understand that it's a Bochurs market, but in the long run Girls Pull the same shtick.
It's a 2 way street.
in Regards to the writer: you write with the vibe that you have a lot of Hate built up inside of you toward the system.
time to find a new shaddchan.
good luck.
(9/7/2011 2:02:34 PM)
Bochurim on the internet
This girl is spot on.

The biggest problem is that nowadays 90% of bochurim (and 99% of older bochurim) are getting "ideas" on the internet - if you know what I mean - and regular girls have to compete with this unrealistic fantasy.

Do you think it is any coincidence that bochurim delaying marriage has coincided directly with the advent of high-speed-internet?
(9/7/2011 2:03:35 PM)
one thing i hate about this system
the one thing that drives me nuts is how the boys have the "upper hand." they are the ones to agree or disagree to even meet the girl in the first place. I have been rejected without being looked into for no reason, just cuz the boy thinks 'there's something better out there.' It's funny cuz out there in the world, they date and meet for the most part without 'prejudice.' Here, you have to be gezha, rich, or both. Seriously, I consider myself to be just as talented and stable as my 'gezha' friends...yet they are given a chance while i am not. it's called being 'OPEN MINDED' people. Its amazing how refreshing you will feel when you open that door.
(9/7/2011 2:05:53 PM)
I think we must get rid of the parents and Shadchnim they are the real problem here.

We need a few mature mothers and Mashpiyim getting together and meeting the eligible candidates, the parents and Shadchonim are all in left field.
(9/7/2011 2:08:59 PM)
firstlyi love the attitude and secondley i think it is a 2 way street but boys probly do it more........yes i am a boy in the dating stage and no i am not like this
(9/7/2011 2:09:22 PM)
a bochur
6 is right!!!!!!!!!!
(9/7/2011 2:13:57 PM)
Father of Girls and boys Married off more than half
This is not easy to write but sadly very true.
One issue that is really hurting the shiddach proccess is that in most cases the boys side ask for a picture of the girl b/4 they even ask about the girls traits etc. if that's the most important aspect of a potential wife woe to us and may hashem bless our boys with torah values (not video or facebook values) Ah gut gebenchede yohr with lots of simches.
(9/7/2011 2:15:35 PM)
Point is guys and girls to a large degree are not real about getting married. For any number of reasons. You can point fingers and blame whoever and whatever you like, it wont chage the fact. So stop this her fault his fault game and just get a backpack, travel and get some perspective on life. After a few months you will start to see that all those things you thought so important, really isn´t.

CPacker Levi, Quito Ecuador
(9/7/2011 2:24:31 PM)
put a little effort
This goes for guys and girls
no one is perfect it will probally be hard to find some one who looks like an Abercrombie or Calvin Klien model. But I Think we should work out more /go to the gym, make our hair look nice, wear nice clothes smell good . looks are important who ever says there not is lying. So we should put effort in how we look this goes for guys and girls. But more importanlty be nice also
(9/7/2011 2:26:28 PM)
amazing article i agree 100% heard this story so many times... scenario plays out hundreds of times. but girls need to be smart and go for the good guy who may not be as cool but is ready to get married rather than the fun immature player
(9/7/2011 2:38:20 PM)
Agree with bochur 101
she is lecturing guys as if saying lack of mentshlichkeit is gender specific to guys. For starters, that's not mentshlich. Perhaps she impresses her lack of mentshlichkeit on all of her dates?! Maybe guys weasel out of dates for that reason? Thank G-d I'm married now for 5+ years, but I dated a girl once (married to somebody other than myself :)), I flew from out of town to date her (and had several hundred dollars of travel/dating expenses AS WELL AS CANCELING A PROMISING BUSINESS MEETING) and after two hours on the date she told me she was tired and she wakes up early to go to work. I felt that it was so not mentshlich after me spending all the $ and travel to meet her, she is too self absorbed in her job and life to devote time to dating. I though she was hinting she isn't interested in me but when she told the shadchan that she would go on a second date, I informed him that there was no need.

So mentshlechkeit is something that many boys and girls lack. It doesn't discriminate among genders!
(9/7/2011 2:48:38 PM)
to 28
Right on.
Aliya gym is local, with mens and womens hours and is constantly getting new equiptment.
(9/7/2011 2:48:58 PM)
Think we should work out more /go to the gym, make our hair look nice, wear nice clothes smell good . ?
Are you for real? This is attributes for marriage? A zoch und vay.
(9/7/2011 2:53:59 PM)
Bochur, Early 20's
WHY are we all just accepting the templates and narratives that are being laid out as fact?! Why do we all accept that ONLY the guys are picky? Why do we all accept that girls never turn us down for no reason? Why do we accept that girls will never see anything on our resume that's a deal-breaker to them and still go out with us anyway?
I'm in my early 20's and have been on both sides of this "game", nothing is clear cut.
The biggest obstacle are the parents that decide their kids don't really know what they want and there's nothing we can do about it because the Shidduch system is the only system.
(9/7/2011 2:56:08 PM)
girls have to start putting themselves together better.
it's not enough to just put on a black top and bottom.

(9/7/2011 2:58:31 PM)
i agree to 29
(9/7/2011 3:00:21 PM)
Does this apply only to girls from Venice?
(9/7/2011 3:02:37 PM)
please enter a title
i wish people would write their name when they comment!
ATT COL: maybe make a new commenting system where you have to write your name, it can go through facebook names or whatever.
its the first time i actually sat down and read these comments. the article was great as well as the comments. article doesnt need name. but comments dont mean as much when left without a name
(9/7/2011 3:04:22 PM)
32 year old girl
People keep saying that the shidduch problem is the shadchanim problem. Well, I don't use shadchanim, I go through my friends and family. I generally trust them and they have been as appalled as i have by the audacity and horror of some of the guys I've "dated".
One thing I can say, and this is not a generalization, only 1 out of the 14 guys I have ever been out on a date with has either called me back, or the person who had set us up!!!!
(9/7/2011 3:19:23 PM)
To #26
You wrote:

"One issue that is really hurting the shiddach proccess is that in most cases the boys side ask for a picture of the girl b/4 they even ask about the girls traits etc..."

Hmm... If your daughters are pretty, than what problem do you have?

Quite the contrary, I think that every Bochur should see a picture (A good picture, that is) of the girl he is looking in to, because if he doesn't like her looks, then there is really NOTHING to talk about.

A Bochur should NEVER marry a girl if he doesn't like the way she looks. I have the Talmud to back me up on this one.

Obviously, he should be looking for other good traits as well, (Like making sure that she is not "high maintenance" or that she doesn't have emotional problems that will turn him into a punching bag for the rest of his life) but a picture up front can save a lot of time and anguish.
(9/7/2011 3:24:01 PM)
18 year old girl
it's not ONLY about the looks. you choose someone for their personality, not because they look good! like c"v the goyim just choose someone cause of their appearance but this is wrong and you'll make the person feel heart broken after cause you woke up and smelled the coffee that they dont match your personality! but, dont get me wrong, I do think Everyone, whether boy or girl, must take care if their looks for the public eye. and though I'm not in the shidduch age yet, I am learning a lot from you all and all I can say is whenever Hashem plans is your destine time to find your bashert, that's what is meant to be! So while you're not meant to get married yet, don't make it hard for yourself to try to find the one. Hashem has it all planned, so meanwhile do what you're supposed to do, aka, Torah and Mitzvos, and then Hashem will grant you the one in the proper time!
(9/7/2011 3:24:34 PM)
Nobody talks about the guys, we spend tons of money, from gas, car wash, parking lots in the city, drinks, lounge fees, and the girls are wined and dined, and when they dump us " how do u think we feel".
(9/7/2011 3:25:37 PM)
I'm a guy and you're an idiot!
(9/7/2011 3:25:42 PM)
An Out-of-the-Box Suggestion
Solid piece.
I cannot fault the author on her perspective. After all, she IS the author.
What seems to be lacking and/or missing in the orthodox dating (yes, I said this "evil" word #16) is mindset and personality.
Indeed there are many shadchanim and professed "drive-by" shadchanim (those who don't do it as employment; only to assist singles they may know) who deal with resumes and such forms of information exchanges. However, the point is blindly missed.
There is only so much information to be derived from a piece of paper that states "boy/girl is frum, down-to-earth, will watch a movie at home but won't go to theaters. Will go to a shiur a couple times a week and (for the boy) davens with a minyan daily."
How much can YOU derive about the prospective individual from this information?
What I suggest to you but more so to people who are interested in championing this "crisis," is instead of sitting by the wayside and collecting papers to distribute to parents of singles, ask the next person who comes through the door to take a personality exam.
Indeed such mainstream, non-Jewish "tests" may have specific details that don't apply to our community, yet, before you dismiss this idea as "unholy" or some other form of feral devil-talk, perhaps take the test yourself. You may be surprised at home simple it will make your task of pairing two people together.
These tests were designed to corner -- as best as something of the sort can -- personalities of all races, ethnicities and creeds in a manner where the test-taker will know what personality-type to pursue before getting into the details of "chassidish, touches beard, sometimes tznius, etc."
If at first you don't succeed, try something new!
(9/7/2011 3:26:25 PM)
#21 is SPOT ON
We should not be sweeping this under the carpet.
(9/7/2011 3:28:59 PM)
I'm a Mashpia to a few young boys, and what I hear makes my stomach turn upside down.

There are boys and girls that have everything good about them, however thier not from popular families, or not rich families, and have such a hard time, I thought in 2011 we got more mature, and stopped caring about such stupid things.
(9/7/2011 3:29:52 PM)
To #4
Unfortunately, they are all the same. Pretty pathetic.
(9/7/2011 3:30:43 PM)
to number 26
Ur right looks are not the most important but yes they are a factor and soo they should be after all how did tuu ba av come abt by the boys looking at the girls and seeing what they liked!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
(9/7/2011 3:30:45 PM)
tto #32!!!!!!!!!!!!!! OKAAYYY
why would u wanna smell bad and have messy hair-obviously a guy wont be attracted!!!!! r u actually kidding? its called looking after yourself...and always impressing your husband !
(9/7/2011 3:33:57 PM)
TO # 8
you seam like a very sweet guy- like the type of guy tht id love to marry...
(9/7/2011 3:43:14 PM)
only early 20s???/
and already fed up????
guess thats saying something
(9/7/2011 3:47:45 PM)
Venus, as in THE PLANET!!!!

There is a very popular secular book called Men are from Mars and Women are from Venus, that describes the fundamental differences between men and women.

Note to all men and women of marriageable age:
READ IT!!!!!
(9/7/2011 3:58:15 PM)
The Other Point of View
From where I'm standing, after going out with all types of girls (from shlucims daughters to big bal habatim's daughters), you can substitute everywhere she writes Bochur with Chabad single girl. everything you accuse bochurim of doing is exactly what i experience the girls doing as well. for example- i was on a date and the girl was texting in the middle of us having a conversation. It goes both ways and to think just because your frusterated at the fact your still single you blame the boys is just crazy. We're all guilty of the same things.
(9/7/2011 4:00:03 PM)
It's shocking
I have a sister she's extremely talented, went to the best seminary, runs a company and goes to school, and the Shadchonim recommend all these losers.

I think the youth have to make social events and make out own system for meeting up with people, the Shadchnim failed us terribly and take our money and do nothing.

If your asking why I don't do what I preach, it's cause I'm also in the market! However as soon as I get married I will start revolutionary changes in the system.
(9/7/2011 4:08:00 PM)
(9/7/2011 4:25:15 PM)
who are the shadchanim that are TAKEN seriously ? and take their TITLE seriously? what is the SUCCESSFUL way to contact them (phone or e-mail ? during the day or evening?

All Lubavitch bachurim and girls are amazing. what is going on?

perhaps they need their FRIENDS !!!!! neighbors !!!!! and relatives!!!!!!! to help out .anyone can be a SHADCHAN!!!
(9/7/2011 4:33:17 PM)
you are full of vain hot air. i am an attractive married woman who dresses nicely but always tzniusdik and i can tell you i did not go to no gym before i got married, and amazingly not only managed to get married to a special person but had more offers of shiduchim than you could ever imagine. perhaps because i was (and am) aidel, kind, friendly besides for being sincerely frum and chasidish, and will run ten miles to do a favor for another. and that my dear is what counts and shows thru. not weather you go to the gym and have a perfect body. though i'm told i have a good figure. that is not the end all that makes for a happy and successful marriage.stop being so superficial and become a quality person and you won't have any problem finding a good shiduch. there still are a few guys out there who want more than a perfect body
(9/7/2011 4:35:36 PM)
Number #21 is spot on
No question that the proliferation of viewing inapropriate content on the web is our biggest problem. The longer it's shoved under the rug, the harder it will be to fix...

People, do yourselves and your families a favor, get a good internet filter, AND most importantly fill your heads with as much Torah as you can. When your head is full of Torah, and your mind wanders for a moment, it goes to the sugya you're in middle of. If you head is full of Shmutz, every idle moment, just keeps the head(s) racing. Vda"l.

(9/7/2011 4:38:01 PM)
Get off your high horse
Aaahhh give me a break and get off your high horse, You make it sound like guys are all lazy good for nothings while girls are perfect, let me tell you Ive dated plenty of girls that were thoughtless, selfish, obscene, lazy, rude, ect. I dont need to comtinue, u get the point.

So dont come on here and pretend like its all the guy's fault and there are no normal ones out there, and that the girls are all saints with no flaws.
(9/7/2011 4:41:34 PM)
i think everyone has to understand something here.
we may be brought up in a chassidishe environment and learn a lot and have different priorities but you cant change nature.
in the world girls and boys go out talk to each other for a long time ...really get to know one another in a close personal way..if they really like them they marry them if they dont they wont....when a girl or boy gets let off or there is no interest in how the girl looks ....that is reality...its how us humans work....if someone is interested he or she will fight to go for it....
yes i know we are suppose to be closing our eyes and only focusing on if he or she learns and wants shlichus....but the times are changing and this is how people operate today..

so when u get dumped or rejected you should imagine yourself in the outside world where it is 100 percent normal to have that happen....and not blame people for not getting someone interested in you

if boys and girls met on their own we would have the same "marriage problem" the girls would be complaining the boys are too picky and the boys would have there side of the story get in touch with reality

people have to be real on dates and really show who they are...that is when connection is created....when one is vulnerable ... so do the hard stuff and get married...

main problem here is
1 need more classes about marriage...should be taught as part of the system after smicha and seminary by professionals not mashpiem...they mess up so many shidduchim as well

2. better website to make sure all the boys and girls are accounted for

3. there should be a dating site set up for all the girls and boys that dont want to do the traditional style of dating...this system will not work for them....we have to deal with this otherwise you are telling 35 percent of the community that we dont care and they should go on their own

part of the system is to be in touch with the professional or another one and it has to be clearly stated what the bochur wants is and what he she wants in life.....otherwise its the parents dating not the kids..

i have a lot more to say...i hope something i said resonated
with some of the readers....

much luck and god bless all and the united states of america

(9/7/2011 5:02:11 PM)
Number 43... and all hopeless romantics!
Being that everyone is messaging me thinking I'm you, I thought I'd give my 2 cents.

I think personality indicators aren't just great for perspective couples, but for married couples as well.

We are in the process of developing a group specifically designed for this cause. The group is xurrently in beta and in early stages.

First, the personality test is taken. Then based on your preferences we offer suggestions based on your preferences (only suggested).. Then you can go to a shadchan and say "Look into so and so".

What is Keirsey?
The Keirsey Temprament Sorter (KTS) is a brilliant Jungian self-assessed personality questionnaire designed to help people better understand themselves and others. It was first introduced in the book Please Understand Me.

The fundamental premise is simple: We each have unique preferences in how we gather, process, organize and communicate information.

Am I committing to anything?
Nothing whatsoever. All we are doing is merely suggesting ideas to you based on YOUR own preferences. What's wrong with hearing another name? One that fits with what you are looking for.

What's so great about Personality Tests?
Most of all, the personality indicator helps to cut through the clutter of resumes and focus on what really matters. Moreover, personality tests help us understand each other better.

Why didn't we do things like this 20 years ago?
With so many singles out there, it's getting harder and harder to match people up. Small lists soon become pages and pages loaded with names without orientation. As we marry later, we have time to develop our personalities, thus playing a more significant role than it once did.

How do we define compatibility?
Just as temperament in a matter of preference, so too is compatibility a matter of preference. Although there are generalizations about which types are most attractive to which, we may prefer one or two things and that over-ride the rest. This may be a preference for introversion, or tough-mindedness, or structure.

Don't personality tests work to confine you to a box?
Absolutely not! If anything advocates of personality tests stand to liberate the confined, working to stop the diagnosis children with A.D.D. in favor of learning to understand their complexities. When we learn to look beyond the face-value of the people we meet, we discover a world of untapped potential.

Isn't it true that any marriage can work and all relationships require attention?
It is true. It's often said that at some point every marriage meets a moment of divorce and it's up to both sides to work past it. Yet, while ANY match can work to create a successful marriage, there are nonetheless suggestions that can help us in finding someone who compliments are most deep-seated needs and desires.

If you'd like more info, email us at
(9/7/2011 5:04:05 PM)
hey girl
I'M typical bocher that dated so far about 50 normal lubab girls. i can say from my experience. U are the DRAMA its in your mind. i dont mean this in a negative way, in person i can explain it to you that u will understand however ...think about the end of the day is what U make of it. i am all the qualities that u are looking for and most probably if we date u will feel that u went threw that same ringer
I do feel for you in your sich.
(9/7/2011 5:04:38 PM)
Looks? How short sighted....
Look, looks are important, but it has to be somewhere down the list. I mean there must be more important things than looks. No? It's OK to ask for a picture before dating, but only AFTER most other priorities have been matched. Don't START with a picture! It's not just a matter of being shallow, it's simply stupid. I mean wouldn't you much rather live with a decent person who is decent looking than living with a super model who is super "witchy"?! Besides, looks will fade, attitude and personality will last. And the assumption is we want our marriage to last. Think about it.
(9/7/2011 5:08:28 PM)
(9/7/2011 5:14:17 PM)
The Chassidish Way.
The best way in my opinion is the Chassidish way where the potential Choson and Kallah meet just once for half an hour! In the girls home,after the parents have done thorough research! ( even finding out the color toothbrush) Forget about lavish hotels this is all Chitzonious!
(9/7/2011 5:22:20 PM)
To # 5
I think you should go on a shidduchh date with the girl who wrote this :)
(9/7/2011 5:23:20 PM)
best advice
To the author of the article whilst i can't help you out, i can give you advice see a good shadchan
(9/7/2011 5:25:17 PM)
Shmiras HaEynayim
One commenter mentioned that he'd attribute the fact that bochurim are getting married late is because it's so common that they're getting "ideas" from the internet. When they're looking at girls on the internet - it's no wonder that any normal girl no longer appeals to them. They're expectations are so unrealistic!

I have several friends who are looking for chassidishe super-models. What's that about!?
(9/7/2011 5:29:00 PM)
Well, most of you are right... I mean life is about growing and learning...

Which side is unrealistic ? lets first agree that men and women are.. different..

And each person needs different things.. I think of it as a business partnership.. I do all the buying but my brother controls the finances.. At first its hard to get used to it, he is after all my younger brother and I ran the business on my own for years.. but then you realize that you have a working relationship.. he excels at controlling the finances.. he asks questions that I must answer truthfully and satisfactory.. or he does not let me buy..

The main key is being honest, truthful and open.. both with yourself and with others..

#21.. yes we get ideas off the internet... and so what ?!? or maybe we believe in romance ? which cant be goyish can it ? just read shir hashirim or tehillim... but you will say "thats about jews and G-d".. and I will answer that all that which pertains above is relevant below in the physical sense..

Point fingers all you want, but I rather stay happy incomplete single than subjugate myself to an unhappy marriage..

So no, I have not really dated and i'm 26.. I dont feel like time is running out or there is a big rush..

Altogether, the american world strikes me as selfish, I fail to see how any one is ready to get married... i'm not attacking.. i'm just telling you how I feel.
(9/7/2011 5:32:01 PM)
more time may be a neccessity
At times, one side really needs more time than the other. They may not be just shlepping it. Over 20 years ago, the Rebbe gave me this answer after going out a number of times and still was having doubts "By you and by (many-I think) others, 4 times is not enough, go out again."
(9/7/2011 5:41:42 PM)
To All of the Above - LOOK IN THE MIRROR
As I read this article and comments, two words shout out to me : TOTAL FRUSTRATION.
The shadchonim are to blame. The parents. The bochurim. The girls. The family and friends who know best. It's always someone else. You are how old (32?) and single and you know better than everyone and that's why you are still single!
No one owes you anything. No one owes you the hours upon hours of time to research, setup, follow through, be rejected and go to bat for you etc etc
It's time you all looked in the foggy mirror, wipe it clean and ask yourself a simple question: Do I or do I not want to get married? Am I being realistic? Do I meet the other's expectations? Get off your high horse and take responsibility. Both sides are to blame. Instead of just venting frustration, be honest with yourselves and have a bit of siyateh dishmayo.
(9/7/2011 5:48:49 PM)
to #49
I appreciate that you think im a nice guy and im sure that you are a very sweet girl but at this very moment i am not dating yet.
(9/7/2011 5:49:09 PM)
It's a journey
Marriage is a serious commitment to life. It involves a partnership to build a Binyan Adei Ad. Often, when a girl or a boy experience difficulties on the Shidduch scene, they turn to Hashem and daven with more inwardness or take on good hachlotas. At the same time they start to prioritize what is Ikar and what is Tofel (what is very important to them and what is not so). It becomes a journey of the Neshoma and with Hashem's help will get just the right Shidduch, the time will feel right and things fall into place, IY'H may it be so for every single Bochur and Girl. A short note about pictures: they do not reflect the reality. Photographs are 2 dimensional, they are flat. Also a lot of people are not photogenic. So besides the looks which may not be so accurate, when you meet a person face to face the features pale into insignificance when you see the middos/personality come through.
(9/7/2011 5:56:45 PM)
I am a girl whose going to school (in the education field). I feel that boys I have dated in the past do not appreciate the fact that I go to school. Also, when people hear that I am in school they think I am too serious etc. It makes me wonder if guys are actually thinking about the future...
(9/7/2011 5:59:35 PM)
to #52
did u realize that all the things that u mentioned about your sister have nothing to do with the qualities of marriage and what it entails? all the things that u said are beautiful (dont get me wrong) but where does that show how your sister is ready for marriage?
(9/7/2011 6:02:43 PM)
Shout out
I wanna make a shout out to all my friends wifes that work so hard trying to hook me up.
(9/7/2011 6:04:34 PM)
Dating is hard
I think everyone has a hard time dating. But just because we think that a guy we go out with is rude or lazy doesn't mean he's actually rude or lazy. Some other girl might swoon for him.
I think there should be across the board education for dating. Rules, things to talk about, things to steer away from, etc. If a person doesn't know basic conversational etiquette then someone might be turned off. Girls also need to take responsibility, I myself dated a guy for a while that I was interested in and after a great 5th date he ended it. I think our friend who acted as shadchan said very nice things to me that he said, which I don't think he said :)
The point is, girls and boys need to sit down and really find out what they're looking for. Get specific about the character. And if you girls are so frustrated about the fact that a guy wants to see a picture then you are denying the way Hashem made men, visual. First they see. We women are not visual creatures to begin with. Sometimes women become attracted after dating a boy for a while.
Shadchanim who professionally call themselves so do not get the entire pool of people. I know several people who got a shidduch by staying by a family and getting a good recommendation. But if a person isn't making a kli for themselves then they have nothing to complain about. Doven for it, be specific and make a kli. It will come in the right time, and remember, all the bad dates clarify what you want and don't want in a partner. It's all a learning process and it's ALL hashgacha pratis!
(9/7/2011 6:30:45 PM)
Just out of curiousity . . .
Just out of curiousity . . .What is the "Best'' Seminary????
And why does that define the person????
Do you honestly think that the Seminary you go to, makes a person???? I have the most wonderful daughter, and 'horror of horrors', she did not go to that 'best' seminary, . . . does that immediately put her way down the line . . .
Is'nt it about time that we start looking into our priorities . . . i.e. Not going to the 'best Sem' does NOT make one a lesser person!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and should not break or make a shidduch suggestion!!!! Shameful, hurtful and totally irrational!!!
(9/7/2011 6:37:23 PM)
#56: "I'm told I have a good figure" but got a lot of dates because "I'm aidel"?

You're very humble, too.
(9/7/2011 6:44:34 PM)
May you all get married this year and end the problem
(9/7/2011 6:45:12 PM)
I'm sure your sister is a nice girl, but Hillary Clinton also went to a great school and ran a company. Wouldn't want to touch her with a thousand foot pole. Look how well her marriage turned out.
(9/7/2011 6:54:32 PM)
even more curious
and what about a girl who didn't go to sem at all?? then she's looked down upon as a bad unchassidish girl? Maybe she's very chassidish already and dosen't want to take any chance that she may ruin her innocence in it, like maybe she isn't so outgoing or dosen't like to leave home, etc and likes to remain in her hometown, still being nice and chassidish. This is another issue that should never get mixed in with finding shidduchim. don't judge a person by their occupations, etc.
Kol K'vuda Bas Melech P'nima. the beauty's from within.
(9/7/2011 7:00:59 PM)
Not a Shadchan

I am not a shadchan, but a happily married woman ka"h and I want to help. I have read enough on this site and heard enough in my community that I want to do something to help. You can email me at, and I can tell you more about myself. As I get interest (if I get interest!) from both bochurs and girls, then we'll try to go from there. You can send me a simple inquiry email before deciding whether to submit your name, I don't mind. I just don't want to stand on the sideline and bemoan the state of affairs without trying to help in some way.
The lovely people who matched me with my husband were not shadchans either, but very kind and thoughtful friends and acquaintances who made the right call.
(9/7/2011 7:40:20 PM)
i like n 73
i like ppl who learn in order to get a proper living but just bc you go to college does not mean that you are serious about marriage and the same go s for boys in 770 or where ever you are in the world studding . but dont worry g d hase it pland out hopefully for the best.
(9/7/2011 7:44:32 PM)
To 51
The guy was pointing out that if it meant from Venus it should say Venusians; not Venetians.
(9/7/2011 7:47:03 PM)
When my friends and I became the age for dating there was no facebook or internet yet (early 1980's) Yes, Lubavitch was smaller and shidduchim were not yet so complicated....however, no one ever saw a picture of their prospective date. It wasn't done. You first saw your date when he/she met at the appointed place and as you got into the car you saw the person for the first time.. ...and guess what...even if the bochur thought the girl was not as pretty as he expected...probably the conversations went great and they really had alot in common...were on the same plane as far as their hashkofos and building a binyan adei ad and personalities and commonality over- ruled perfect looks. I can't think of one (maybe one) girl in my class or high school girls from my days that did not marry by age 22. We were simpler then and were'nt living in a fantasy world where girls had to look perfect
(thank G-d) and Bochurim were not caught up in the Television, internet world where they perceive the ideal female spouse to be GORGEOUS all the time. The word DIET didn't even exist in our vocabulary. We were happy go lucky girls who were not necessarily size 4 but well kempt, and nice looking. The current generation of Shidduch aged boys/girls have their priorities skewed along with their long check off list for perfection (unless it's the Mothers). Focus on the important things. May Hakodosh Boruch Hu bless all the those that are in need of Shudduchim to meet their right zivug B'korov Mamash!!!
(9/7/2011 7:47:40 PM)
Selfish guys
A boy who quite frankly thinks he's gods gift to humanity recently agreed to date my friend and then backed out before the date and decided to date someone else. I think these guys are selfish!
(9/7/2011 7:57:27 PM)
Pathetic Shidduch System
I think that the whole frum/lubavitch shidduch system is totally messed up and pathetic! Why don't we just do the regular dating without involving parents and shadchanim? Go out and meet someone. It doesn't have to be set up by these people who think they know what they're doing and don't.
(9/7/2011 8:00:14 PM)
Everyone should read #7
and get real..
(9/7/2011 8:01:38 PM)
The problem is the parents
I have tried speaking shidduchim for the mitzva. However I'm
tired of dealing with parents who aren't honest to themselves or
to others. Many mothers of daughters claim that their daughters
want a frum, chassidishe bochur who has yiras shamayim, but
he must be "worldly". When you meet the girl she is definetly
"worldy" but far removed from Chassidishkeit, frumkeit, tznius,
etc. They are not looking for what their parents Please stop wasting everone's time. Let your children date people that are compatible to them.
(9/7/2011 8:03:49 PM)
Agree with 10 - Bochur 101, and I'm a girl...
I'm 27 and I was embarrased to read this tone of writing. I tried not to judge because she did write she was early 20s so she's young and immature but her attitude is appalling. The good guys don't deserve her...
(9/7/2011 8:06:13 PM)
The best thing is to leave all Shadchanim our of the picture and families and friends, help each other out and make shiduchim for each other.
(9/7/2011 8:08:01 PM)
Well said! I agree that's the approach many people need to start taking, it's not about how the girl was in high school or which sem she went to. I see many girls who are unrecognizable since high school years, that were a few year back.

another point: if people would stop being so self-conscious and have the courage to ask the other side maybe more shidduchim would happen. Many times i saw how people let a good suggestion go by because they were afraid to ask out of fear of rejection.
Face it! rejection will happen, it has to happen until it doesn't and then you found the right one, so its OKAY to take the chance and ask; and don't worry you'll live even if you are rejected.

I feel like girls AND boy are so scared to "put themselves out there" for fear of rejection. AGAIN don't worry, it not like the word trade center will come crashing down if a guy says no to you. Life will go on.
(9/7/2011 8:17:45 PM)
girl in the shidduch world
wow, this is intense and as sad as it is, i must admit it is a bit comical as well.
here is my piece- we girls are also to blame. i mean how many times can we drive a bochur crazy with yes/no/yes/no and then just not being able to decide...? i think men are better at making final decisions. anyway we should realize that there is a lot of effort that goes into the boys side, he has to do all teh arrangements and the expenses and getting to the girl if shes not around, etc... so lets not play so innocent here fellows! and yes, lets be a bit openminded when suggestions come up- youre marrying a guy not his great grandfather!!!!!!!
(9/7/2011 8:18:05 PM)
att #5
Who are you? :)
(9/7/2011 8:19:21 PM)
BOYS, GET A LIFE!!!!!!!!!!!!!
i am a young married girl (5 years) and i am watching how my friends and and my husband's friends go about their single lives as they get a little bit older and have still met their "One".

while i see how so many girls are being highly productive and realistic about their time and how they spend it, whether it means educating themselves or working in teaching positions OR OTHERS, many boys , to my utter amazement, continue to "fool themselves" that they are productive and realistic about how they spend their time when, in fact, they are the farthest thing from that.

it is extremely rare to find a boy who is 24+ and realistically realizes that learning all day as a 770 "bochur" is not exactly working out, and therefore does whatever he has to do to find other opportunities.
you'll find so many "Quality boys" sleeping to the afternoon hours on a daily basis, shoving the bull for the rest of the day in 770 or elsewhere, and yet continue to expect that a girl that they should date be serious and accomplished

to all those 25+ bochurim who waste their time all day....YOU KNOW EXACTLY WHO YOU ARE, and if you are 27 years old, and have absolutely nothing to show for yourself for the past few years, because you're too "Chassidish" to go to college C"V, but sleeping and shoving all day is chassidish enough for're really in for a crushing reality as a dating boy and definitely as a married man....of course so many girls will be "too serious" for you , because they take their life seriously.

the rest of your life is not about watching your hardworking wife slave away working with her skills while you sit in kollel drinking coffee
i am not only implying the college is the only option out there C"V, but dear buchurim, do you really think that saying to a shadchan that you're interested in shlichus or a serious learner and therefore not pursuing any other interests is a pretty enough coverup for your chronic time wasting and lack of accomplishment?

whenever i get a phone call from anyone in reference to a shidduch about one of my friends or my husband's friends and i get the ridiculous question "so , does he/she want to go on shlichus?" i answer them "excuse me, what exactly do you mean? who is going on shlichus these days? where are they going to exactly?"

Buchurim, it's time to wake up and smell the sour reality that shlichus is not longer the glamorous option that it used to be (and the "good enough" excuse for not pursuing anything else). it's time to start being serious with your time. have something to show for yourselves

i know it is very hard to break out of a very, very long "tradition" of not thinking of any other options, but we've reached that point in time. you have interests, and not all of them require college (although some do). think about them, make projects and goals for yourselves,

with that said, i think the bochurim might appreciate the girls efforts more, will be more respect worthy as husbands (which is soo important in a marriage), and be much better prepared for the difficulties of the real world that lie ahead.
(9/7/2011 8:53:05 PM)
to lubavitch!!
As a Lubavitcher bocher and an anikle of the first reabbeim of LUBAVITCH ,who went through the secular education system and completed 2 yrs of yeshivah. i then went on to study in a collage and did not like it after a semester so i have started working! however who ever thinks thats is wrong to go to collage is out of there mind because sorry to inform you but in todays day and age you just about need a diploma for every job u try out (except if ur going to go work in DADDYS business) and women and girls who want to go to collage to work is amazing it means they want not only to be the mother in the relationship but also wants to partner up with her husband to make a living. people don't live how they live today with not going to collage and i hardly think that the holy rebbeaim would want to see firstly poverty stricken family's and that shidduchim weren't happening because a girl wants to study to be for Example doc, accounted, anything .
(9/7/2011 8:54:12 PM)
to the one whos dated FIFTY GIRLS??!
if you couldnt find ONE girl out of FIFTY to marry - then you clearly have an clearly are not looking for the right htings and using your head and probably are getting stupid advice!!
(9/7/2011 9:14:18 PM)
Agree with 87
You are 100 % right. Let people meet naturally.
(9/7/2011 9:17:46 PM)
to #72
i think you hit the nail on the head with that insight. this is what this "stage" is all about for us single boys and girls. its all about discovering who we are and taking the time to dig deep within and work on bringing out the best in ourselves. marriage is an entire journey in and of it self so its best to come in to it prepared with the tools of good middos, strong values, and a clear understanding of our selves.
(9/7/2011 9:20:32 PM)
My son went out with a girl a lot of times. One of the things he wanted was a girl who was frum, Meaning she is tznius ans acts nicely.

B"H, B"H B"H she broke it off after he spent a fortune taking her to very nice places to eat even though we don't usually do that. she led him a dance over a few weeks.

we later found out that this "frum" girl is not very frum at all. Which brings up another point that people have to tell the truth. Don't tell me when I call, Mrs. Shlucha, that "Chavie" ALWAYS wears stockings. It isn't true but she played the game because her parents really wanted our son because they were having a very hard time getting this bargain married off.

Were so grateful it didn't work out because he would have been miserable. GIRLS ARENT HONEST EITHER!
(9/7/2011 9:21:30 PM)
attention boys and girls
I don't think this article should address a gender issue. How about attention boys and girls, be mentchlach when you date. Above are some good points. All should follow. Just a thought.
(9/7/2011 9:40:39 PM)
I think most of htem are just AFRAID. very AFRAID. The statistics for a really happy successful marriage are lose ( and i dont mean divorce, i mean actually being happy in your relationship for the long term).
Most of them proabbly see parents, aunts, uncles , friends with not-so happy marriages and just not going to end up like that...i want to be SURE i will be happy before i marry or its not worth it.

I dont blame married...for many years...whilst i wouldnt get divorced for many many reasons...our marriage is not as happy as it should be....

most of these kids just need real real guidance about how to make a really succesful marriage and theyll be more willing to take the leap.

as i was told once: marriage is about building a relationship, its not just about 'being however or whoever you are' and it takes skills..and if we dont ahve them, which most of us dont...well then it probably just wont.

Til this day I dont understand how our parents just send us off ot marry without the right skills....

i believe in the frum community the statistics are like the majority are not-so-happy-have-big-problems -but-are-ok-and-make-do, a lot are terribly-miserably-failing in ther marriage, a few are really happy, and well a few divorce - and im talking about int he long term, (so if you're married less than ten years, you dont count towards these statistics)

it would be interesting if we took an anonymous survey with real serious participants what it would look like!!

anyway, Hashem should just bless us all with the abiliity to make it work!
(9/7/2011 9:45:45 PM)
Follow up... :

Hey your all right... your just not meant for each other.. the shallow ones will marry the fakes.. those with $ can marry shallow ones with good looks etc etc etc etc...

But hey, i'm still not dating.. I agree with all of you above, it stinks.. so who needs it ? deff not me....

(9/7/2011 10:09:55 PM)
what about the idea that each person has only one other half that was decided at birth?
Trust in Hashem, do your work, but you're not searching for the "perfect"other half, just the one who was created for you.
Maybe daven fo a little help and don't go out on a million dates just because they are suggested.
(9/7/2011 10:24:19 PM)
you might be looking for someone just like you. Good luck, that's a hard job.
(9/7/2011 10:38:29 PM)
a serious bucher
1.Sick And Tired Of Dating Drama...ill date u send me a

For boys only

stop bringing in the rebbe... tell them the rebbe gave u a bracho instead of asking for cash.

if only u acted and treated the ppl that come to u the way the rebbe wold want u to.
(9/7/2011 10:39:14 PM)
To #96
If you're so proud of your secular education, then at least spell the word 'college' with an 'e', not an 'a'.

Second, being that you're also proud of being a descendant of the Rebbeim, please don't state that "any one who thinks that going to college is wrong is out of their mind"(with editing), because our dear Rebbe was unequivocally(with thin borderline exceptions) opposed to the idea.
(9/7/2011 10:41:34 PM)
agree with # 87
I think the most effective way to ind your bashert is when you meet them yourself or through a friend suggestion. I know someone who went on 10+ horrible dates because the shadchanim just threw names out of a rabbits hat. these suggestions werent even like this girl I knew! which proves that shadchanim dont exactly look thoroughly into the person looking, how they are, etc. and yet I know many who found them simpler and it worked out in a click of a button: they met through friend suggestion. It's a wonderful way because your friend knows you plus there is no pressure of trying to 'sound good' to the shadchan like "oh... yes... its going very well" but really its not, only cause theres this constant pressure and all. But it's all up to Hashem HOW one finds their mate! Another thing is that a girl does NOT have to go to seminary to 'look good' on the resume, etc. this is not a good misunderstanding. you can have a typical girl going just to 'go with the flo' - cause everyone else goes, even if she'd waste her time there or be there just to experience socially, which is what u can do going on shlichus, etc. or u can have a girl that didn't go to seminary, yet she's wonderful with good midos and very smart... this is just my opinion- that don't ever look down on a girl just because she didnt go to seminary. could be a million reasons why she wouldn't go and that proves no right to judge! I know sem has not much to do with this article's point, but Im just bringing something to the attention here cause I feel strongly about this.
(9/7/2011 10:59:38 PM)
early 20s bochur
i think its b.s. ppl blame shadchanim they are doing a job not a favor. if you care about getting dates then you need to be on top of them and then they will stay focused on you. i blame the parents for the problems in shiduchm.there are so many ppl that get rejected because the parents were concerned about what they want in a boy or girl and not what is good for there child. shadchanim need to stop dealing with parents and deal only with the boy or girl that is dating. when i was ready to start i personaly called the shadchanim that were suggested to me. im sure i get alot more info about prospective shiduchim or shiduchim that arent shayich because im in direct contact with the shadchan. there are so many matches that never get setup because the parents dont like.
(9/7/2011 11:16:14 PM)
to #11
im sure you are serious about what you do but why would anyone want to send a resume or any personal info to a shadchan that they dont know.
i think people would feel a lot more comfortable if you put your name and we know who you are
(9/7/2011 11:17:12 PM)
1. I think that the main issue is an issue of class. People want to date people better than them and and therefore hold on while they should only be dating people in their social structure.

2. Parents should be more proactive in pushing their kids to call things off. They shouldn't view dating as a form of entertainment. If they did view it as such they might as well get their kids membership to a night club.

3. Girls look down at guys while I (a girl) know many respectable guys that work, daven and are put together. You have to adjust what your looking for.

4. In summation shluchus is a major issue. It is a way for both the guy and the girl to differ thinking practically about life leading to exactly the dilemma in this article.

Tip to writer... Remove shluchis from your requirements and you will see a world of difference
(9/7/2011 11:17:31 PM)
To number 21 and the author.
I am in my early 20's and have not started to date yet because I feel that one should be able to support a family both monetarily and emotionally before they start dating. Starting a family is a very big life decision. I believe parents are doing their children a disservice by forcing and pressuring they into making what ultimately could be the a disastrous decision.

To number 21

I think that to blame the whole issue of "shidichim" of what "Bouchrim" see on the internet is false.

The fact of the matter is that boys are attracted to girls of what they deem to be attracted to. Nowadays mass media and advertising are getting people to see one kind of person as attractive. Does the internet contribute to this yes but it is more the modernity of the world as a whole(girls and boys).

People are now just more careless in making up reasons as to why they do not want to go out with someone that they do not deem to be attractive. I would bet that 20 years ago a person just had to be a bit creative when it came to telling the "shadchin" why that girl would not work out. I think in the end it is less painful if the guy knows that he would not be attracted to the girl just not to go out with her. Is this the altruistic and ideological way "shidichim" should be not at all however this is the way it is for most people ( the select few of us in Chabad that are not altruistic)

Now beauty is in the eye of the beholder that is to say that someone might think one girl is attractive and an other might think she is not. Also the longer a person dates the more likely they are to just give in and start a life even if they are not really (at that time) attracted to that person.
To the author

Do you know what most of the guys you meet are lazy and immature? It is because most guys and girls for that matter at this young age are lazy and immature.!!

If you want to find someone more grown up you need to start asking different questions.

Guys are shy and nervous when they are on a date and like to put on as macho exterior because they are afraid of getting hurt. You just have to calm them so that you can melt away the exterior and see them for the emotional being that they are. In need of care and encouragement just like women.

Keep your head strong don't be discouraged they guy you find will be worth the wait.

(9/7/2011 11:30:04 PM)
to #56, you must be one of the "protected ones"
listen to yourself! you are attractive, had tons of offers, are very aidel, married a great person. wow, you must come from one of those elite families
good for you, but 98% of us who probably possess these very attributes whit which you describe yourself are not as lucky as you. It can be either because we do not flaunt those virtues as much as you just did, or you must be one of those intouchables, who do as they please and end up with a good shidduch.
you sound even more pathetic that the pittiful shiduch situation.
(9/7/2011 11:43:43 PM)
im sorry to say im a 23 guy who has never gone out before why
1) my mother is looking for something that she wants
2)she wont listen to me
3)the girls out there are to sceard to tell there parents what they what (and that's why the parents are not being real about the kid(s)
4)we need to wake up ppl we are living in 2011 things have changed times have changed the world id different not like you remember in the 60 or 70s we are more chilled then we used to be
5)why dose every one cry when some one goes of the path at an older age ___Answer bec when parents are not being real who there kids are (makes us the kids lose our minds and we go explore other things around us )

6) its time for a change in our times the skirts yes we want them right about the knee not lower .................

hope this wakes ppl up if u have any other in takes pls comment
(9/7/2011 11:47:17 PM)
to 96, i am having a hard time with your story
you went through the secular system and some college and you still think that college is spelt like the picture arrangement (collage). I think not. Girls don't want you, not because you went to college, but because you cannot spell!!!! Get it right, buddy.
(9/7/2011 11:47:31 PM)
cant take the waiting any more
a mid 20 guy i was turned down by a girl for what ever reason it was (i have no idea why) i short i knew her and she knew me .

1) she just dose not want to date
2) she does not no who she really is
3) i have no idea what she was thinking we knew each other very well (lets not get into it how what were ) but just from seeing here every day and a while just looking at her didn't make me think she is the one right away but pretty much close (only had to go out with her to find out if it was really the one in my eyes it was ) but she turned it down in a sec if i had the guts i would pick up the phone and call her my self but its not some thing i want to do i rather go through some one to do it
(9/7/2011 11:55:45 PM)
To #41
Let's turn tables. If we really consider this as a two way street, and both sides have equal expectations to be serious on this. Let the GIRL sponser gas car wash, drinks, lounge fees. etc. (lol)
(9/8/2011 12:00:07 AM)
get your name going
(9/8/2011 12:01:07 AM)
to 50 girls
i know you very well, i read about you twice a year ,thats right we all know who you are..... your name is ACHASHVEROSH
(9/8/2011 12:08:25 AM)
Psychological therapy
As well in the war, there are no winners or loozers. This is not a fight. Both of you (Girls & Boys) want to get married (I'm not a boy and not a girl in this comment). Its very sad to see what people are doing from themselves. Guys, calm down, relax, take a break, go to the psychologist, and became a person, a normal person.
(9/8/2011 12:11:41 AM)
number 5
ill go out with you.
(9/8/2011 12:12:41 AM)
suggestion from a married man
Girl-can you imagine your 19 ?Boy can you imagine your 22 ?pretend its your first date, make a total clean up in your attitude, and start again from scratch.......
Good luck

(9/8/2011 12:21:32 AM)
Rochel Leah
To the author: I am sorry for your frustration.

(9/8/2011 12:22:30 AM)
Another Girls thoughts
After reading all the thought provoking comments, I think it is my turn. Firstly number 21- Ditto, the things that are accessible because of internet these days is terrifying! I am sometime shocked by the way chassidsh looking boys check out my ( some clearly married) friends and girls walking right in front of me while walking on the streets! So I shout out to all you guys: PLEASE do not make it uncomfortable for us girls who DO RESPEPECT you and dress accordingly ( meaning modestly ) to walk down the streets! On another note: Dear number 53, I am talking to you! Do you really think if you were at one of your “ make our own shidduchim” social event and you saw a girl that did not have perfect skin or was a bit too pail for your liking and you were surrounded by many other attractive girls , you would still go over to her and try to get to know her? Which TV show did you just finish watching? Do the statistics show that the outside world’s method of dating is more successful than our traditional way? YES, it is not working and only because people are getting ideas from the wrong places. The Rebbe once told a girl that she is having a hard time settling down because she is reading too many romance novels! # 47 ( Yes, I actually went through every single comment !) It is ironic that you mentioned that, because I always wondered how inappropriate the whole Tu Bav situation sounded. I mean think about it, hundreds of beautiful girls dressed like angles dancing in the streets is not the what I would describe as tznius in our lingo. I read meforshim in Ein Yakov and it says that on that day there was no Yeizer Hara and that the boys chose their wives’ completely from ruach hakodesh! We cannot understand it and it gives us no justification to start making our own hang out places unless you guarantee that every person that enters is checking out girls sincerely with Ruach Hakodesh and that they have no Yeitzer Hara….NICE TRY . #63- You sound like a girl making fun of those lazy guys but it was the only comment on this entire article that made me LAUGH OUT LOUD! #96 – If you would have said that to me face to face I would tell you very nicely to take a bow and close your mouth! It is so appalling that since you are “ from descendants of the Lubavitcher family tree” you feel capable enough to reject what our Rebbe clearly states about collage. There are many people who commented about the issue of people who only want to set up their children with ppl who are steeped in Yichus ( oh… unless they are rich…then the Bal Tshuvas are o.k too!) and I feel it is so inexcusable to dismiss another based on who their grandfather was ( I am from a family of Yichus btw!) There were two comments about failed marriages. I am not married myself but being surrounded by married people, I feel that many do not know the first rules about relationships. 1. A spouse is not a hand bag or accessory! I overheard men at a wedding once speak about their wives as if they were objects and the same with woman. 2.Your spouse is YOUR spouse and keep it that way. No one likes when their wife has a “good ”male friend and vice versa. So be courteous but distance to other woman other than your wife. Because since the time polygamy was outlawed by our sages, there is only room for one other person in your heart! 3. I learnt this from an educator who mentioned this during a shiur: to make a marriage work, YOU MUST WORK AT IT. You are not marrying a white gown, that dazzling ring or that really great humor. You are marrying an imperfect person with struggles and shortcomings just like you! 4. Until you find Mr. Right ( notice I did not write Mr. Perfect since that does not exists) keep on working on your character traits by improving them since this will only make your marriage smoother. Another great tip I have received is to improve in your Avodas Hashem since this will help your Bashert in his challenges. I may sound like a wise old woman with a warm out face and white hair but I am all of 19 years old.
(9/8/2011 12:30:35 AM)
to # 96
clearly the problem is you didn't stay long enough to learn how to spell "college"
(9/8/2011 12:33:13 AM)
to #95
Very well said!! Thank you for your honesty!! You present a realistic view of our times!!
(9/8/2011 12:51:08 AM)
There need to be mashpiim that are experts that give mandatory classes.tapes or couseling for both genders BEFORE shidduchim and BEFORE marriage.
That will really help prepare a young heart and mind.-Benveniste,Tsfat
(9/8/2011 1:12:13 AM)
Not just boys, but since I'm a girl...

I went out with a boy, had a really nice date and thought he did too. I had been a bit shy and didn't think he had a chance to get to know me. (Shorter date than normal.)

Then he says he will have to push off the second date until after camp... OK, I agree to wait.

Towards the end of the summer, my parents get a call from the Shadchan that it's off. The next day, this bochur's name is all over the news sites... he's engaged.

I'm B"H happily married and my husband is definitely perfect for me, but the thought of that incident still hurts.
(9/8/2011 1:13:17 AM)
forest and trees
and this all avoids the real issue - marriage

yeh, yeh, dating game today is a lawless land, and there's no rebbe on which to deflect the decision process, but that's all kid's play compared to once you actually make the leap to lifelong commitment.

almost no one has a clue what they get into until they've jumped off the cliff without a parachute - just each other. you won't know who you maried until well in the game.

have another drink of koolaid folks.
(9/8/2011 1:13:53 AM)
About Pictures
Yes, a bochur should like the way his future wife looks. But a picture is a terrible way to do that. Some people just aren't photogenic, some people look BETTER in pictures in real life, and most of us look nothing like our pictures...

Better meet us in person, and if the looks don't "do it for you", then that can be one factor in whether or not you continue.

Keep in mind that every one of my failed dates taught me something abou the person I WAS looking for. (Found him on the 5th try B"H.)
(9/8/2011 1:28:39 AM)
Happily in a relationship
I think that we're all missing the point here. The article could have been written buy a girl or a boy it doesn't make a difference.

The point is that when people don't know what they are looking for or aren't ready to get married stay out of the system. Until then being in the systems just burns you out but even worse than that it burns your date out too.

To all of you out there who are single, I've been in the system for many many years and I was miserable. I have no idea how many boys i've gone out with. I've lost count a few years back. I felt shadchanim were just spitting out names with no reason at all. Some of the names weren't even in the ballpark...
But when I finally did meet the one it was right and everything just clicked. I know its discouraging and its really easy to get burnt out (I know I did.) But keep being a mentch and keep dating for the right purposes and with help from the one above your zivug will reveal itself.

May we all be zoche to happy marriages!!!
(9/8/2011 1:31:37 AM)
Love. Love is the key. Love is what we all need. And love GD willing we will all find. Therefore its half and half... There MUST be involvement of a higher authority HOWEVER, guys and girls SHOULD meet on their own (obviously in a controlled way) but when two people meet however they do, and they like each other, then thats it! Mazal Tov! :D

Good luck.
(9/8/2011 1:40:15 AM)
another mother
I BH married off several kids, some boys and some girls, and would say that the same is true for boys as for girls. I have seen girls who kept my sons waiting to go out because they had a chassunah to go to every night. Most girls also accept dates even when they know that they are about to go on vacation. Girls want boys with looks even more than boys who want girls with looks. A boy will be attracted to a girl who puts a bit of effort into looking nice, especially if they have a personality that is easy to relate to. Girls though, notice every flaw about a boy.
As far as complaining about shadchanim, anyone can become a shadchan and set up shop without a minute's worth of training. If you don't like a shadchan, get someone else involved.
(9/8/2011 2:02:15 AM)
something seems to be lacking here......
if people would only put Hashem into the equation, things would be so much better!
We have the right formula for marriage-has been working for years and years now: al yesodei hatorah v'hamitzvah.
This is what is everlasting, not modern romance.....
People have faults-we are all human, but the focus should be on the positive aspects of the other person, their strengths.
When building at a construction site, one needs to be very mindful of the faults and potential setbacks-so that nothings topples over and collapses, true.
However, the focus should be on the positives involved-how to make this building work in the most beautiful and efficient manner with all the assets and good resources that are included.
People-we are working on making the geulah a reality-right?
Just think how much holiness and mitzvos can be brought into this world upon the marriage of a new couple and the establishment of a new Jewish home!
And the assurance is there-strong foundation of Torah & mitzvos-solid and strong. Let's make that commitment!
(9/8/2011 2:16:45 AM)
This is it!!
Is collive opening up a new feature called chat? i think you can change from "post a comment" to "start Chat", seeing the comments here.
And to all you chatters: iyh you will get engaged real soon with the one that fits you best, and collive will post your engagement, l'echaim:)
(9/8/2011 2:24:14 AM)
Good Idea!
If only you guys knew each other we will have a bunch of shiduchim out of these comments. Bummer
(9/8/2011 3:00:58 AM)
We are all human
When a guy cuts his beard and when a girl shows her toes or elbows, it's not an indicator that they are not Chassidish or not really Lubavich. They just need to grow, like Hashem wants us to. If we are not moving up we are moving down, so ask the person who cuts his beard if he is against Hashem or if he is simply finding it difficult to adhere to this particular Halacha, even though he wants to make Hashem proud. And ask the girl who shows her toes if she is against tznius or if she loves Hashem andwhile she covers everything else, except her feet, being modest is hard for her because of a personal (human) issue.

We should embrace the human part of each other. We should understand that one person's taivas are on the outside and another's may be hidden on the inside (like davening properly 3x a day might be hard for someone but the fact that they daven 3x will get them a date. Same for a tznius girl who shows her toes. She is covering up everything else and that should say something about her and get her a date.)
Tanya teaches that we should not aim to be tzadikim. Don't expect perfection because Hashem doesn't expect it either. Just be honest about what you are willing to do for your G-d and your people and how ou will do it, especially once you have kids. The other side should understand that Hashem will be happy if we raise kids to be good humans, who learn Torah and do Mitzvos with Ahavas Yisroel and Yiras Shomayim.
(9/8/2011 3:06:53 AM)
Privacy is an issue in dating
People say that reumes are too general but I am afraid that if I put myself onto a paper that is handed around to everyone in the neighborhood, then I will pass people in the streets who know more about me than I would like them to know.

My defence is to be vague, just describe my torah values and life goals on the resume. Then, if someone shows interest and I don't see him as a threat (a guy who is making a bet that I will date him or a guy who just wants to look at a girl close up or a guy who will tell all his friends everything I said and how he is making me fall for him) I will finally show my personality on a date.

If I could be certain that only respectful people will handle my resume and not show it to someone without my permission, then I would add details about myself and what I enjoy in life.
(9/8/2011 3:16:14 AM)
wow im a girl, turning 19, not lookign for marriage yet-but wow u people all make this sound way more hectic than what it is...calm down...and by expressing ur feeling here annonymously, REALLY WILL NOT BE BENEFICIAL FOR YOU BECAUSE YOU DONT KNOW WHO YOU TALKING TOO...DID YOU THINK OF THAT? there is something mentioned on expresses anger in the TORAH-maybe go learn about it ;-)
(9/8/2011 4:04:16 AM)
to #95 Shlichus is definitely a option.
you write "so , does he/she want to go on shlichus?" i answer them "excuse me, what exactly do you mean? who is going on shlichus these days? where are they going to exactly?"
Buchurim, it's time to wake up and smell the sour reality that shlichus is not longer the glamorous option that it used to be (and the "good enough" excuse for not pursuing anything else). it's time to start being serious with your time. have something to show for yourselves"

as a ungerman, i can agree with many of poitns you made, however to say that shlichus is not a option, is simply not true.

There many places and opportunitis for shlichus, but guys turn them down cause' they want a place that was only available 20 years ago, big town lots of money, chinuch, kashrus, be their own boss.

if couples would be more idelstic, they would grab the offers out there.

there are miilons of jews we have not reached yet. look how many reform temples there are in cities all across the US, do we have a presence in all those cities yet?
The answer is no.

We can easily send out another 1000 shluchim in the next 3 years.
but first we have to stop this pessimism, "there are no places for shlichus".
(9/8/2011 5:05:54 AM)
It's interesting to read the comments - as you gain a lot more from that :D
Im finding this all quite cute! people should really be set up via these comments :D :D :D :D
(9/8/2011 5:44:05 AM)
to # 95
I am a bochur in 770, and I can tell you honestly that you hit the nail on the head - a LOT of guys are just sitting around without accomplishing anything in the few years they sit in 770 waiting to get married. However, it doesn't really depend on age. There are a bunch of 22 year olds who do as well, while I know quite a few 25 year olds who learn the whole day. Why they aren't married yet, it's not my business.
Anyways, to say the guys bumming around should go to college I must disagree, you don't fix one problem with another, although the bochurin aren't learning, at least they are in an environment of learning and farbrenging, put them in college and forget about it. I think there should be some more shiurim/mashpiim involved with the bochurim in 770 to inspire them to use their time out.
(9/8/2011 6:18:51 AM)
You spelled college wrong....a few times
(9/8/2011 6:44:39 AM)
We spend tons of money, gas, car wash, parking lots in the city, expensive drinks, lounge fees, deodorant, fancy cloth, etc.

So “forgive me” if, I glance at the tv to check the sports, or if I look twice at the waitress, or if it seems like im listening to you but really your just babaling about nothing for sooooo long, or I cant take my mind off the lipstick shmear on your tooth, or the shwarma I had for lunch is making me feel a bit squirmy, etc.

And to top it off, I go home completely unsatisfied, then I just end up hanging out by my computer the rest of the night, so back off girl in your EARLY 20’s.

PS. Don’t be hating on the "handbag" or "trophy wife" just because they're pretty.

(9/8/2011 6:59:03 AM)
To 96
You went to college? (Not collAge) You obviously didn't learn very much. Didn't your secular teachers ever teach you about run-on, illiterate, & badly-spelled sentences?

Sheesh. If that's what collEge produces, I'm glad my children only went through the Yeshiva system. Even my boys know where to put a period & a capital letter.
(9/8/2011 7:12:00 AM)
all these comments
are so stupid.

The people with the problems and the bad values did not just appear - it took decades for them to come to this point.

Time to invest in our children when they are SMALL and teach them a proper derech.
(9/8/2011 9:26:44 AM)
to all the wonderful people offering to help, asking people to email you with whatever won't solve anything. The best way you can help (in my opinion) is be proactive with your friends and your spouse with his/her friends and ASK them what type of person they're looking for, and then network with all your married friends and idea's will pop up. Then, please please please, muster up the courage and make the suggestion
My 2 cents
(9/8/2011 9:58:30 AM)
To 107#
Thank you for your spelling lesson but you obviously didn't get my msg at all. And our rebbe wanted men to be able to support a FAMILY and put dinner on the table every night. How do you propose to do that with out an education.!!
(9/8/2011 10:13:55 AM)
"It hurts me to see my mature, strong, intelligent, capable, talented and beautiful friends dating these unmotivated, lazy and simple boys ..."

If this woman wants to marry a mature, strong, intelligent, capable, talented and beautiful person, she should date another girl.
(9/8/2011 10:53:25 AM)
to #144
you have serious issues man! a word of advice - GROW UP! Before you have to subject another poor girl to a date with you.
(9/8/2011 1:10:03 PM)
drama drama
it's all bashert girls n boys - when the time comes you'll find yours truly - don't let anything else frazzle you! :)
(9/8/2011 1:10:59 PM)
i'm a 23 year old guy that has not entered the shidduch scene and frankly i'm sick before i have even started just going to do it my self!
i have seen how "friends" and SHADCHANIM have failed my friends so why would any one in there right mind put them self through it!!!!!!!!!
(9/8/2011 1:14:01 PM)
what a bunch of whiny losers
(9/8/2011 1:19:00 PM)
49!!!! I think its not tznius to wrote this on comments
(9/8/2011 1:41:35 PM)
to #115
you obviously didnt go to college, because spelt is like challah-not spelling which is what you learn in first grade
(9/8/2011 1:48:52 PM)
1: Avoid shadchanim, they have no idea what you want, only you do.

2; If you do visit a shadchan, you should interview him/her before you are interviewed. Ask about their process, their success rate, how many of their dates have culminated in marriage, and how many of those marriages are still marriages. You are trusting an utter stranger with the most important decision you'll ever make, but most will ask less then they would of their car salesman.

3: Get busybody parents out of the equation quickly. Too many parents nix too many good options for their wonderful son/daughter. Do a little research and then get out of the way. If your son/daughter is old enough and mature enough to get married, then they are also old enough and mature enough to figure out who to marry.

4: Refuse to answer questions that are in appropriate.

5: Don't feel compelled to send a picture if you don't want to.

6: Don't be so desperate. The shidduch crisis you've been hearing about? It's a fallacy. The only real crisis is a crisis of maturity, sensibility, and self responsibility.
(9/8/2011 1:58:42 PM)
Its very intresting to read the comments in collive about shiduchim!!!!!! Very intresting story's about dates........... but I want more because many story's are monotonous...............
(9/8/2011 2:00:03 PM)
#127 - Pre-dating classes
There are so many variables these days in choosing a spouse and B”H there are hundreds of eligible boys/girls out there. It’s almost impossible for a young adult to navigate their way through the process without proper guidance - whether it’s parents, a Mashpia or somebody they can trust. Unfortunately many young adults can’t (or won’t) rely on their parents, and their Mashpia (if they have one) might not be qualified to assist in the minutia of this complex process.

Seems like many eligible girls/boys begin dating without having a clear idea of what/who they are looking for (seen this first hand). So how could they know if they found him/her? He/she could be sitting right across the table from them, but they wouldn’t know it. So yes, a pre-dating course would be very beneficial – just to get them focused properly. That should save a lot of time & aggravation and create many more happy marriages.
(9/8/2011 2:09:33 PM)
to # 8 / 71
i wasnt asking you to marry me!! lol
(9/8/2011 2:58:47 PM)
Second comment
I was comment #11. Baruch Hashem a number of people contacted me. Girls only contacted me, but not a single bachur!!!!! Come on bachurim, you have to be a little more responsible and step forward. It's time for you to start building a Jewish, Chassidishe Lubavitcher home. Please contact me at
(9/8/2011 3:12:52 PM)
to #144
invest in a good can of deodorant so you do not have to spend so much money every time you have a date
(9/8/2011 3:48:38 PM)
hey this is cool...
i personaly think that its not the ultimate solution to have a shadchan make u a shidduch...cuz the shadchan doesnt even know u. its mostly by fate i think. i met someone special in a really random way, and he is the best guy in the world. no one suggested him for me. so basicaly yeah, i think you should go look for urself for ur soulmate. tho in the frum world, its not so apropriate, but i think it works and is the best way. cuz u are the one getting married to that guy, not ur parents or shadchan. so, u should be the one to decide. its like eating dinner at a restaurant, u order the food and u eat it, so you wouldent want your parents to be saying to the waiter: "please give me the real bland healthy noodles and fish, thats the best right?"
(9/8/2011 3:52:33 PM)
#160 Are you out of your mind?
Bachurim or girls shouldn't be contacting you directly. It should be their parents or agents or whatever. The problem is that these kids start dating without a bleepin plan and that's why they can't make up their d--- minds. What are you some kind of guru? You think you can make a mentch out of Bachurim on a mass scale all by yourself? Or are you just trying to move around as many names as possible and see what sticks? Come on guys (and girls). Get serious before you start dating and stop wasting other people's time!
(9/8/2011 5:18:58 PM)
Shadchonim (the ones I know mean well) however your other comments were spot on
(9/8/2011 6:02:26 PM)
37 ive been thinking that for a while
this conversation is so interesting some pple have awesome points others sound so immature wish i knew who said what instead of calling eachother by numbers and believe me some pple who write they are a girl of this age or a boy of whatever uh hu sure number 8 ur def a girl 63 luv it 68 elchonon luv it leah
(9/8/2011 6:30:24 PM)
You guys are all funny.. but hey its surprising just at the blanket requirements / desires here...

It never occurred to me if my future wife will wear stockings or not.. or socks or saran wrap or tinfoil.. I cant conceive why this is the foundation of the marriage and the jewish home...

This seems all shallow to me... what happened to vital things such as "how do you see yourself on life ? where do you want to go, how do you want to be in the future ?"

Whatever happened to stuff like what type of heart and soul they have ? are they compassionate ? will they make a good spouse / parent ?

Are they sincere, dedicated, devoted... I dont see why saying chitas is even 5 points ?
(9/8/2011 6:39:33 PM)
there are all kinds of people. the girl that wrote the article is full of self righteous. Everyone has faults. i would not want my son to marry you as you are so judgmental and so self righteous. You can do no wrong. The same faults that boys have girls also have. Try being more eidel and frum and going about a shidduch in a frum chassiddish way and Hashem will help you and you will get married. Everyone Stop putting blame on gezah, on rich etc. If you are not gezah, there are plenty not gezah for you to marry. If you are not a BT there are plenty of not BT for you to marry and vice versa. Don't belly ache and blame others.
(9/8/2011 6:51:01 PM)
left field
Disclaimer: I have no connection to gezha and any inner circles. I am just a former alter bachur from a very worldly background and I may be way off reading between the lines, but here goes: Razal say to "descend a level and marry a wife". This means that a girl at the highest level of intelligence, competence, training etc is at a big disadvantage - who can descend to the top of mount Everest? Even helicopters can't do it. This has been a factor in the decline of many "good" families in other cultures. There is more hope, however, on the "Jewish street", because if the woman is humble and has real bittul, she will make the man overlook her "gadlus". He will feel masculine and this will bring out his potential. There is a series of how-to manuals for humility, they are called Chassidus. By the way, if the girl is sick and tired of shiduchim, where is the guarantee that she won't be sick and tired of husband, children, inlaws, husband's friends, house, parnasah, you name it. If one gets humility from avoda ruchnis, then it does not feel like "givng in", one still has strength and assertion when needed, because they came from the same source. And all this goes double for the man honoring the woman. They have their separate jobs in which they are responsible to the Commander in Chief, the Aibishter, and that is what makes the marriage, including happiness in gashmius mamash. This is not easy, if I would have learned it young I might have a big family, but there is another avoda to deal with that kind of regrets. Hatzlacha to all.
(9/8/2011 6:55:41 PM)
Tu B'Av
I personally feel that we should go back to the old days where the girls go and dance in a field and the boys pick by choice
(9/8/2011 7:26:31 PM)
to everyone
this is so funny! and enteresting to know what everyone thinks about it...
whoever went to this class:
im sure knows all the points so clear!
good luck!!
(9/8/2011 7:39:26 PM)
To every one whos made comments about #96 I think its time that you read what he has to say rather then turmenting him about the spelling of (college)!! He had some good points! I'm also someone that went to university , and yes I do think it is important however I know what the rebbe says about university and as far as I'm aware there people the rebbe did say to go to university !!!
(9/8/2011 8:26:45 PM)
Comment 42
NASA ur totally a girl
(9/8/2011 9:04:12 PM)
I'll tell you where to go......
Go to Q-9umbers :)
(9/8/2011 10:14:38 PM)
to number 144
you are completely obnoxious.
i am a girl, and i can honestly say i would never want to go out with a guy like you.
you think your the only one that is putting fourth?
we also have to get dressed up, do out makeup, wear heals (any girl who says they are comfortable, is a lier)
and to try so hard, all we ask for is your attention.
would you like it if we were looking around the room while you were talking.
if you want to go check out the waitress, go the the restaurant with your buddys, and don't leave it for a date.
if your not mature enough to be dating... stop dating. because your obviously not going to find the right one, until your ready.
so stop wasting the girls time.

(9/8/2011 10:16:10 PM)
to #124
please talk to your mashpia for a reality check. and learn some tanya about the ego...
(9/8/2011 10:52:15 PM)
grow up
well ye its especially hard with the texas wild fires that spread thru out millions of acres of land, destroying thousands of homes, and with all the rebellions going on in the middle east that have already killed thousands, this makes dating gets even harder. sigh.
(9/8/2011 11:19:31 PM)
I completely agree with #136 :D The whole time Ive been saying, what if every1 who is single posted their criteria!! Lets try :) :)
(9/8/2011 11:44:44 PM)
Dr. Elka Pinson says:
Ladies - come to the Chabad Shidduch Group meeting this Sunday, Sept. 11 at 10:30 am at the Muss Home, 1011 E 18 St (Betw Aves I & J). We present profiles and network. We have been successfully involved in dozens in shidduchim over the past 3 years.
(9/8/2011 11:55:22 PM)
TO #133 "Girls want boys with looks even more then boys"
I don't know what girls you are dealing with, but most girls care much less about the guys looks then guys care.

Of course girls like to see handsome guys, but if they meet a guy who is really nice and has a great personality, most girls will overlook the fact that the guy is short or fat.

Of course there are exceptions to this, just like by boys there are a few who do not care that much about the girls looks. However, these are only exceptions and do not usually occur.

The reason for this is simple. Guys care much more about the here and now. Girls on the other hand are more mature and because of that they look long term and realize that looks fade, but the personality always stays.

Anyone think otherwise?
(9/9/2011 1:17:25 AM)
Why are you so hateful of a group of people who are giving of their time and efforts to try to help you? You don't have to work with them if you are not satisfied. But don't lash out at anyone because you didn't get engaged yet. They don't know you ? How can they know you when you don't know yourself? A shadchan will make a recommendation but you have to check out to see if this is what you are looking for or at least think you are looking for. Why are you agreeing to meet someone that sounds so wrong for you? or is hindsight 20/20. By all means be a little makir tov and see if your bashert doesn't come soon (with a little davening and bitachon and emunah - not knocking someone who is trying to help you. Hatzlocha Rabbah and besuros tovov.
(9/9/2011 1:38:39 AM)
You all need to get married! Thats all! You all saying the same thing (in different words) "'I NEED TO GET
MARRIED" second of all! GUYS!!!! You need to stop blogging your emotions! It's really cheap!!!! Turn off the computer and start working!!!!
(9/9/2011 2:11:11 AM)
In response to #163
The mother contacts me on behalf of their children. I had more responses for girls than for boys, but I am still reaching out to the boys, "Bachurim, your frame of mind should be to build a Jewish home. Why wait and causes others to wait?"
(9/9/2011 4:04:31 AM)
I like that comment
(9/9/2011 5:52:49 AM)
tu baav
im in the streets but idk how to dance. but im wearing white. come find me. im on kingston and montgomery
(9/9/2011 10:40:24 AM)
to 111
Are you a shadchan? It's people like you, who invalidate, are out of touch with society and single's ,who are actually the real problem. I am praying for all of those who are like you, and all shadchanim who share your "insight" who require the most help from above.
(9/9/2011 1:37:06 PM)
to # 115
Its Spelled not spelt (so don't criticize someone else wen u ave te same problem
(9/9/2011 1:54:25 PM)
to 180
Because (not all but some) shadchanim are misguided I personally know 2 shadachanim who sincerely, non judgmentally want to help. A shadachan should not take the role of a mashipa. EVERY single needs a mashpia and it should in no condition become the advice of Shadchan. Whether 2 people want to go out again or not, whether a person has certain criteria or not is absolutely not the shadchan's business. Regarding the "They are just trying to help" -certain time "help" is not help at all. A lot of times a single will see a shadchan because of pressure from a parent or family member. The more emotionally intelligent the shadchan is the more they will be a pleasure ( not a nuisance to work with. And I just want to say that there are some people out there who are very capable of working with singles and shidduchim, you know who you are. Don't let other people who are involved in shidduchim, but are misguided, try to stop you.
(9/9/2011 2:46:09 PM)
to 175
I am HUMBLED that you actually sat and revised my comment. I apologize for sounding too egotistical. I actually just got off the phone with my Mashpia ;) Not to be on the defensive side but what did offend you?The fact that it hurts me to see how guys disrespect girls by checking them out as if they are objects? Anything I did write was just from advice I have received from my Mashpia ( ironic for you to suggest I go talk to her, huh? ) and from being around Crown Heights and having eyes ( such as seeing how ppl are way to friendly with others that are not their spouses) And about Tu B-av, it all straight from Ein Yakov, I only quoted it because I believe in having accurate sources when discussing Torah. G'shbbas and keep smiling, it lightens up others days!
(9/9/2011 2:51:18 PM)
A mother
I'm a mother of a bochur & we have experienced this situation in reverse. We spent hours coaching our son on etiquette , how to listen, dress etc. Not because he doesn't have manners but because we wanted him to see it from the girls point of view. We spent a considerable amount of money for our son to travel to where the girl was, expensive car rental, hotel lounge etc. We were prepared to overlook her lack of middos in dealing with the shadchan as lack of maturity. The girl put in little effort besides turning up. Said she had a good time & mad another date only to cancel at the last minute saying she was not ready to get married. Less than a month later she was engaged to someone else.
She & her parents treated the shadchan as less than human & our son as irrelevant.
Stop blaming shadchanim they are also people many who do it only for a mitzva, often they are treated very badly & certainly not respectfully .
Parents of girls, start teaching your daughters basic manners, no they don't need to hold the door open, but they need to treat their date with respect even if the person is not their bashert.
And please teach your daughters NOT to discuss their shidduchim with friends.
To those parents who are in gezhe category , get off your high horse!
(9/10/2011 8:55:35 AM)
to 189
why would you overlook not good middos? or why would you overlook lack of maturity. These things are of utmost importance to your son
(9/10/2011 8:44:20 PM)
to no#39
sorry to say but you are sooooo wrong!!! i could not believe what i was reading!!!? looks are not everything at all!! go out with the girl and then see her as as well as her beauty within and then decide!
(9/10/2011 11:34:01 PM)
So sad....
As a parent of both boys and girls who ought to be ready to get married, I have to agree with the author of this stoic but heartrending letter. It seems boys in our community are plenty happy 'being boys'. Most of the bochrim are like grasshoppers in the summer, constantly galavanting all over the globe, and when in CH are 'hanging out' at all hours, etc and this applies to both good and not so good bochrim. Especially bein hazmanim or once they are in their early twenties and 'done' with yeshiva.

On the other hand, if girls were to behave in this carefree manner, they would quickly be associated with the 'troubled" girls. (Yes, here is a double standard, but that is not the point.) We tend to expect more from 'good' girls. Don't blame me for pointing it out, thats the way it is in society.

The bochrim are irresponsible in general. Some go carefree from job to job, project to project, sleeping in as they feel. Many of them don't feel an obligation to the home they grew up in, let alone an obligation to establish a home of their own. They have no clock ticking in their bodies that will prevent them from having children at some point. They feel they can continue to have their 'vacation' as long as they want. And they can. If fact if they venture out a little too far, they can always buy a new borsalino, put on an italian jacket, and they are 'back'.

Most 'good' girls are busy with school, helping at home, and being there for the family who raised them. They are more focused, down to earth and pining away waiting. Unfortunately the girls will never be given this leeway their brother get and they know it.

That is why it's a boys market for chassidishe young people. The ratio of 'chassidish' boys to 'chassidish' girls is nearly 1:10. This is no exaggeration, check it out on the best and cleanest shidduch resource online, Do a search there (select some of the chassidisheh hanhogas for boys, black hat, chitas, no movies, chabad shchita, etc., and the corresponding ones for girls, sheitel, etc) and you will see for yourself!

Sadly, some girls are becoming very lax in tznius, perhaps seeking to get noticed in the crowd, but it's backfiring. Those few chassidisheh boys and their families will ignore them.

But bochrim, we need to get our priorities in order. Like the fabled grasshopper who fiddled his summer away, winter will also come for you. Are you doing what you should be doing at this point in life? Are you prepared to follow your destiny in life, ultimately establishing an honorable family and IY"H bringing up chassidishe children? And if you are not asking yourself these questions, why is your sister asking,
(9/11/2011 3:08:19 AM)
The whole "system" is messed up
While reading all the comments I don’t know if I should laugh or cry. But one thing I am certain of..currently things are not working out.

Number 16. Are you serious? What is wrong with you? Perhaps the parents should negotiate the exchange of goats and land prior to the boy and girl having their business meeting? Wake up, out side of Eastern Pky between whatever street you live on time did not stand still and it is 2011. And yes while you will argue Torah is above time etc etc..I don’t see you living in a shetetel with mud up to your knees and sleeping on a shul bentch. I do see many frum people and yungerlait that have a profession. Grow up and catch up, we have to live with the times and if we want our children to continue in the path of torah and mitzvos we better get wise about it.

number 114, you are spot on. PARENTS LISTEN TO YOUR KIDS. What you want may not be what they want. You want your daughter o date someone who is interested in shlichus but she may want someone who will actually provide for her. You may want a girl who’s grandfather made kiddush on zeks un nintziker and danced and made kulles in the streets of lubavitch but your son may want a girl from a warm family etc etc.

Parents you need to realize that if your child is old enough to get married and have children of their own..they are old enough to decide WHAT THEY WANT! No, you do not know better.

Bucherim: Get you act together. By now you should know what you want. Do you want to go on shlichus and if yes you know that it is easier said then done. Do yo have a game plan? Is there a shlichach you worked for that was so impressed with you that he has talked with you about moving out inteh future or do you have a friend/family member ready to expand and you are candidate? Do you want to join the working world? If yes what is your plan? Is your strategy that of "I went to OT I like all lubab bucherim and a chevraman and I will just start a business and make millions"? Or have you considered what you will do?

Parents/bucherim/gilrs...getting married is the start, but the honeymoon last until the first rent check is due. If your from the lucky few who have means and can support or be supported by your parents then you have time to play house and figure it out after you get married. If your from the (un)lucky group who get a section 8 food stamps spend two yrs in kollel while and sub whn OT or ULY need while your wife teaches in Bais Rivka..I guess you can either figure it out in a few years or will remain stuck in the cycle and when I pass you on kingston strolling up or dwn Kingston @10am slowly looking bored of life and wonder what the heck happen to you I remember when you were a "great catch".

I dont mean to mock anyone. Point is fix this shidduch problem! That includes shaddchunim. Personally if your over 50 retire. If you dont know what facebook is, retire. Not b/c Facebook is important but b/c you are NOT up to speed with the nxt generation. The best shiduchim are referels from friends and family. People who actully know teh boy/girl. And people plz DATE! DATE! DATE! not for 2 weeks there should be a 3-4 month minimum. Get to the point were teh boy/girl is comfortable enough to be themselves and not teh version of themselves they feel they are expected to be. Girls if they guy can not give a straight answer of what he wants to do with his life and how he plans on going about it..RUN. Guys if you dont feel a connection break it off. Parents...In the long run it makes no diff what Yeshiva he went to or what Sem she went to. Does she watch movies..gasp! Will they be good to your child..that’s what matters.

(9/11/2011 2:54:30 PM)
"chabad shchita"
Well, if chabad shchita is the important filter you're using, then, yep, you probably are going to be single for a log time. Glad you have your priorities in order.
(9/11/2011 4:31:59 PM)
K9 "kvetch"
As the proverbial bumper sticker would read in a case like that: "My Poodle is smarter than your Shadchan".
(9/12/2011 1:21:52 AM)
oh really?
It hurts me to see my mature, strong, intelligent, capable, talented and beautiful friends dating these unmotivated, lazy and simple boys who will dismiss them because they are "too intellectual," "not put together enough" or "can't cook."
It hurts me when over judgmental girls reject me as not being Lubavitch enough for them b/c I'm a bt. Excuse me for not being a lazy and unmotivated boy from a frum family.
(11/5/2014 7:07:35 PM)
it hurts me...
As a bochur it hurts me when these so called " mature, strong, intelligent, capable, talented and beautiful girls" refuse to even meet me b/c of my background.
(3/3/2015 8:50:46 PM)
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