Aug 22, 2011
Scathing Letter Against Rov

An Israeli posek tells Crown Heights residents not to ask Rabbi Yosef Braun halachic questions "under any circumstances." Vaad Hakohol: He was given inaccurate information.

By COLlive reporter

Rabbi Menachem Mendel Shafran, a member of the Beis Din of Bnei Brak and a leading posek in Israel, recently weighed in on the ongoing controversy surrounding the membership of Rabbi Yosef Braun in the Crown Heights Beis Din.

Here are excerpts and key points from his letter (translated from Hebrew):

Monday, 8th of Av, 5771

Rav Avrohom Osdoba:

1. I'd like to preface, I'm responding to the issues based on the details that you have given me.

2. Regarding the newly elected Rav, who - in your opinion and the opinion of many community elders and leaders - is not qualified to serve as a Rav. His ineligibility is due not only to his ignorance of practical Halacha ( that is to say, experience and practical training) in laws of Issur v'Heter, monetary laws and Even Haezer, but more so due to his character (as reported by some of his teachers who raised him).

3. Even more so, [Rabbi Braun's qualifications are called into question due to] the suspicious nature of his smicha from his father. Beyond the serious suspicion of forgery , the [sordid] details behind its public ripping (itself a chilul hashem), raise further questions:

a. Was this event staged?
b. Who conspired to arrange this event?
c. Was [R' Braun] involved?
d. Is this event an indication of his overall personality that he isn't fit to be a Rav or as community leader, or was this a one-time affair? [(These questions are of the utmost importance, as) the Chasam Sofer is very strict on investigating the installation of a Rav by unscrupulous means].

B. I wrote to you some six months ago that you are not "obligated" to sit on a beis din with [R' Braun] nor take part in any other matters of the rabbinate, so long as you have reasons to doubt his legitimacy (as mentioned above).

Now, however, that you are being intimidated by threatening your salary,

1. Not only are you not obligated to cooperate with him by giving into this pressure, but rather you are forbidden to participate with him, as by doing so you are legitimizing him as a valid rabbinic authority.

2. It is forbidden for the [Vaad Hakohel] to withhold payment from you in an attempt to coerce you to take actions you find objectionable. (It is interesting that the Vaad Hakohel found it necessary to ask me if they should pay the new Rav based on his election, but didn't ask me if they can withhold the salaries of Rabbonim already serving.)

There is a Biblical prohibition in appointing a Rav who is not fit - be he lacking knowledge or unseemly in deed ( even if he has many other admirable qualities) [This based on the SM"E - according to the Maharam Schik it violates two prohibitions.] As well, those who assist this new Rav are equally culpable. Using pressure to appoint a rav is further prohibited, to the point that it may even be in the category of Yehoreig V'Al Yaavor!).

C. One should not rely on [R' Braun] as a Rav until it's clear:

1. That he is actually qualified to pasken in Isur & Heter.
2. That he is actually qualified to sit on Din Torahs.
3. That he is qualified to preside over a Get.

Until then, however, no one should ask him Shaalos in Isur & Heter under any circumstances.


Zaki Tamir, Chairman of the Vaad Hakohol of Crown Heights who has consulted with Rabbi Shafran in the past on this issue, sent the following statement:

The theme of Rabbi Scaffran's message seems to be in contrast with what was previously communicated by the Rabbi to the Vaad in response to my inquiry regarding Rabbi Braun. In reality though, the current communication is based on inaccurate information. Namely the stated premise that the Vaad ever withheld salary from any of the three Badatz Rabbonim due to one political position or another. That assertion is flatly false.

Moreover, there has never been a threat to stop paying any of the Rabbonim based on a decision by the Vaad. Furthermore, the document that was released last week purported to be an agreement between myself and Sam Chanin is not signed and was never signed, it is merely a reflection of the earlier stages of the negotiations, in fact the executed version states clearly that (in sum and sub pertinent part) Salary may not be withheld from any of the 3 members of Badatz unless there is a finding by the Bais din zablo that said Rov is in contempt pursuant to the Order of the Zablo Psakai din.

Additionally, (emphasis added) notwithstanding the objections of some Bais Din funders, checks have been given to the Rabbonim equally in accordance with the pay grade. Each pay period checks were either distributed to all three Rabbonim or to none, depending on whether we had adequate funds in the account. It is the agreement between Chanin and the Vaad that allowed us to enforce payment to all three Rabbonim, it is therefore ironic that the same agreement is used to try and evidence the exact opposite.

It is important to recognize that undercurrent prevalent here, that being Kashrus. This comes at no personal loss to anyone individual, but rather to the community as a whole. Notwithstanding numerous attempts to inspect the books of kashrus and to assume control of its operations pursuant to the Psak Zablo, there has been absolutely no progress with respect to the transfer of kashrus to the community.

The most obvious connection hereto is that every pay period I must overcome a very difficult claim by funders and potential funders alike, that is, kashrus is intended to be a source of income towards payment of Badatz salaries, the financial portion of kashrus shall be in control of the Vaad Hakohol (see psak zablo art47). Therefore, if a party appropriates kashrus funds to one's self, is a salary check on top of such payment required, and is it even permitted.

Again it is the agreement between Chanin and I that allows me and Chanin to force the funders to recognize that we are bound to an agreement that designates the Zablo bais din the authority to decide a Rov's non-compliance. Therefore we can force the existing funds to be split accordingly, but we cannot force funders to continue giving if they are expressing what seem to be legitimate concerns regarding the use of the funds they are providing. Their chief complaint is that if a party collects money from kashrus that should (at the very least) be calculated towards salary. It is indeed a difficult claim to overcome.

Attached is the letter that Rabbi Schaffran sent me regarding Rabbi Braun’s placement on the Badatz, as you can tell from the tone, a lot can change in 180 days.

Most Read Most Comments
Page 1 of Rabbi Shafran's new letter
Page 1 of Rabbi Shafran's new letter
Page 2 of Rabbi Shafran's new letter
Page 2 of Rabbi Shafran's new letter
Page 3 of Rabbi Shafran's new letter
Page 3 of Rabbi Shafran's new letter
The old letter Rabbi Shafran wrote to Zaki Tamir
The old letter Rabbi Shafran wrote to Zaki Tamir
Page two of the old letter Rabbi Shafran wrote to Zaki Tamir
Page two of the old letter Rabbi Shafran wrote to Zaki Tamir

Opinions and Comments
Away from Rabbi ùôøï is no one to turn to???
What does Rabbi Shafran, only he should intervene in the business of Lubavitch, quiet Crown Heights with disputes.
(8/22/2011 9:15:39 PM)
Am i the only person who dont care?
(8/22/2011 9:18:14 PM)
You didn't post the old letter.
(8/22/2011 9:23:34 PM)
who is this Rav?
How could a Rav give a pisak without hearing both sides. that can only happen in Bnai Brak
(8/22/2011 9:31:17 PM)
Here we go again.
(8/22/2011 9:36:37 PM)
Did you or did you not sign an agreement with Sam Chanin?
(8/22/2011 9:38:55 PM)
it seems
it seems likw rabbi schfran got the real picture from rabbi ozdoba and gave out this new lwtter. its clear that something will have to change as its never going to end. they must go back to a new bais din and sort it out. there is to many questions on rabbi broins appointing process that many people are concerned about
(8/22/2011 9:39:08 PM)
don't get it
i don't understand why the ch rabbonim aren't standing up for him, what kind of ahavas yisroel is this?????
(8/22/2011 9:55:55 PM)
I don't understand
What changed since his first letter? And how do you reconcile the fact that he clearly states a disclaimer that "this is based only on what I heard from you..."?
(8/22/2011 9:57:14 PM)
i think r broyn was elected by the majority of c h
(8/22/2011 9:58:58 PM)
oh wow
Crown Heights is a joke.

There is nothing jewish about this place any more
(8/22/2011 10:05:31 PM)
We need 2 Bais DIn's
R' Schwei and R' Braun and let them find a 3rd and let R' Osdaba stick with R' zirkind and R' segel. and that will solve all problems!!!!
(8/22/2011 10:11:59 PM)
Best solution:
Scrap the badatz!

The Rebbe said about this neighborhood "Kan Tziva hashem es habracha" and we know that the only place a bracha can hold is a place of peace.

Sadly, our beis din was never ever associated with peace or achdus.

Let just one have go to their own rov without the need for official representation which we either way don't have.

And if someone is in need to a din torah, there are more than enough batei din we can go to (which we anyways go to today)
(8/22/2011 10:14:25 PM)
Please explain
Why can't he just travel to a bunch of Rabonim including the above Rav and get tested?

(people questioned the alter rebbe and tested him as well with brochos etc.)
(8/22/2011 10:22:32 PM)
more machlokes ... more sinah... more public washing of dirty laundry ch b proud
(8/22/2011 10:23:29 PM)
Why does Rabbi Shafran make a stand on something without hearing both sides? Isn't THAT against halocho? (It is.)
(8/22/2011 10:31:55 PM)
Is the CHK a personal entity of R Osdoba? Or does it belong to the COMMUNITY? How much money goes through the CHK? Why is R Osdoba so adamant on keeping the CHK even at the expense of everything else?
(8/22/2011 10:41:40 PM)
Inda Know
With regard to knowledge and adherence to halacha
1) No Rov can poskin upon hearing from one side, or even from both sides, if both sides are not present and have the opportunity to present opposition to the other's statements. Rabbi Shifran says he does just this!
2) Rabbi Shifran "poskins" on the bases of false information, admiting it is based only upon the presentation on one side. Hummm?!
3) Sulchan Orech Chosen Mishpot specifically states thet a Beis Din may be composed of one Rov, who may then sit with two 'Hedyots" (commoners) to constitute a kosher Beis Din. In saying that Osdoba may not sit with R' Braun, what is R' Shifran saying? That R' Osdoba himself is not qualified as the one Rov? That Shifran himself doesn't know this halacha? Or perhaps that Shifran himself doesn't care about the halacha and is rendering, not a halichac opinion, but becoming himself another political hack attempting to spout political spin.

R' Shifran, by his own analysis, is speaking against the Shulchan Orech, is not qualified to issue any psac in accordance halacha, and need not be listened to!!
(8/22/2011 10:42:43 PM)
Let Get rid of the rebbel rowsers
Enough is Enough! Everyone agred to adhere the zabla's psak!! The zabla is the deciding factor!! The Rebbe was the initiator of the Crwon Heights Beis Din and there were misnagdim then as there are today!! Stop the machlokes and accept Rabbi Braun as the talmid chohom that he is!!!
(8/22/2011 10:50:50 PM)
This whole thing is an oxymoron,

The concept of a din torah is that one listens to the psak of the beis din even with the knowledge that they are not perfect and could be wrong. I'm sure that's what the CH beis din would expect of their constituency.

By not accepting the rule of the beis din regarding who is the rov, it is teaching the community that when the CH BD gives a psak that you think is not right you can go ahead and not accept it if you know better.
(8/22/2011 11:10:48 PM)
with comment number 12

Fresser Rebbe says....

Very good idea, let there be two Batei Din, and in regards to the question who controlls the hechsher, well one court will give the hechsher on Fleishig stuff and the other on Milchig.

And just for kicks, both will give on Parave
(8/22/2011 11:14:42 PM)
Shafran must be a bluff
I Am a Rov and I don't understand how any worthwhile Rov can pasken or come to any conclusion whatsoever and worse yet put it in writing when in his own words he hasn't heard both sides.

This Rov must understand well the dynamics of frum people and for him to write a letter of this sort, fanning the flames of machloikes when he doesnt know ALL the facts must put him in the exact same category as Rabbi Osdaba. What a shame. How unfortunate of a matzav we are in these days.
(8/22/2011 11:24:12 PM)
Who is Sam Chanin? Was he elected by Ch? Does Zaki believe he would have been elected to the vaad had he told everyone before the election that he intended to hand over the keys of the community to Mr. Chanin?
(8/22/2011 11:34:08 PM)
Don’t attack the Posek
There have been some major “veltisher” poskim who are saying that this whole case needs to be reviewed, are we going to just ignore them because they are not Chabad?
Until a new independent Beis Din made up of respectable Rabbonim give the OK, I will never accept R' Braun as a Rov, and anyone doing Gittin by him better be careful as their get may not be valid. The consequences of that could be terrible, Mamzarim and Sheilous of aishas ish etc…
(8/22/2011 11:35:09 PM)
AS far as i know there was a PSAK from ZABLA in its time. and being so theres NOTHING BUT NOTHING that could change that.not one rav and not thousands PISKEI DINIM! rav braun shlita was elected and finished, thats it !
(8/22/2011 11:40:44 PM)
Thank you Zaki Tamir
For maintaining an open dialogue and keeping us informed.
(8/22/2011 11:41:35 PM)
jews hurting jews again
ad mosai!!!!????
(8/22/2011 11:42:29 PM)
why should rabbi osdoba care that rabbi schafran paskans after hearing only one side? Rabbi Osdoba ALWAYS paskens behind the defendants back, without listening to the other side!
(8/22/2011 11:51:50 PM)
stop spreading the hatred
(8/23/2011 12:00:51 AM)
wow to 18 inda know
go learn your laws one more time and tell me all the opinions about dan yechidi with 2 hetyodes
come on you go to such a bais din when you need your answer. i b"h can go to a out of crown heights bais din for all my questions
(8/23/2011 12:07:03 AM)
Cheirem derabainu Gersho
I see these letters are adressed to individuals, and not to the community, so it makes it a letter to be read by them, and them only.

If there is someone who has a problem, should go to Rabbanim, and work it out behind closed doors.

Let it take time, let them fight it out all night, [-without either sides henchmen], and I'm sure as they are mature men, who are looking for the Emes, will come to a conclusion, and all will and should go out happy.

Anyone thinks, its an issue that the entire community has to waist time and energy on this issue?

Rabbanim, Pasken, and stand behind your conclusions, even if it may hurt, politcains ect.

if their worried, let them get many many Lubavitcher rabbonim, and let all the last few arguments be hammered out once and for all. and we can move on.

Its already starting to get a bit.. you know what!

Azoy ken es nisht shlepen

*I think its a smart thing to keep this case amongst our own Rabbonim.

Guys its coming time for Chodesh Elul, Choidesh Hachsbon, we outo make a real Cheshbon Hanefesh, between ourselfs how much time did we spend on these issues which we can not make a change, nor to we have the power to. just more waste of time, and speaking in not a positive way to someone.

Ahavas Yisroel=MOSHIACH
(8/23/2011 12:09:46 AM)
to 21 "alleged rov"
I don't know if you're lying about being a rov, but I agree with your words: "must put him in the exact same category as Rabbi Osdaba". Agreed. Rabbi Shafran and Rabbi Osdoba are in the same category; "REAL RABBONIM WITH SEMICHA TO PROVE IT!
(8/23/2011 12:12:24 AM)
18 and 22 are forsure r braun
(8/23/2011 12:12:27 AM)
I have hope
Rabbi shafran gives me hope that truth will prevail. Shalom without emes is no shalom at all. We need true peace!
(8/23/2011 12:13:48 AM)
Hate to be the one that states the obvious,there DOES exist the overwhelming majority of crown heightsers who did NOT vote for R' Braun or take any part in the purim shpiel that followed.
Though they don't belong to any one "side" officially,they nevertheless felt that this move would only bring disaster.Sadly,the only correct comment for this charade is " I TOLD YOU SO ".......
Maybe the lesson for us all ,is,that there are occasions when you should listen to the "amor dibar",the "average" member of our community,who wasn't around 22 yrs. ago ,where the roots of all the current problems come from;or he just doesn't care,all he wants is a functional community,not dysfunctional.
So,if in the future we'll have more consideration for yossele
der baal hagolo's opinion,and start thinking in terms of win/win,i.e. what can be done which most people would accept etc.,maybe we'd get a lot further.

(8/23/2011 12:24:39 AM)
Shame on rabbi shafran! Rabbi Braun is an exceptional person, a respected rov and a great friend and mentor!!!
(8/23/2011 12:28:19 AM)
Is the rebbe proud of the way were bringing moshiach
(8/23/2011 12:28:28 AM)
It's before chodesh elul,so we won't mention names....
everytime you mention a certain name and his involvement in crown heights affairs ,it is ah shanda un ah cherpoh,;you always try be talk respectfully about the rabbonim etc.,but your mere association with this person is a mockery of everything every single member of our community stands for : SHMIRAS HATORAH V'HAMITVOS....
Now,please ,zaki , tell me how are you going to spin this,that greater people than you disagree ? But you know this person up-front and you know his true colors.DISCONNECT.
(8/23/2011 12:35:36 AM)
sooo sickening!!!
We are infected (drastically) with the Golos Virus... take Two Tablets and call Hashem 3 times a day!!!! Ad Mosei!
(8/23/2011 12:46:44 AM)
sad, disappointed
Enough already. Why do you think so many of our young people are turned away from he right path? Basically because theu see NO AHAVAS YISROEL, NO KOVOD HATORAH amongst the elite. What sort of role models do they have?
There was transparency whe Moshe Rabeinu collected money, now there must be tranparency in regards to the KASHRUS MONEY!
Ia a dayan (who is actually an employee- )doesnt like the appointment of another dayan, he has the option of resigning. If I objected to my employers about their choice of additional recruitment, what do you think they will say to?
Why cant we just have SHOLOM?
(8/23/2011 4:54:56 AM)
Still in Golus
If you were wondering why we are still in Golus and why there is so much Machlokes amongst us, you know now.
Why is this any less of a Chilul Hashem? If this is "a leading posek in Israel", we are in bad shape!
(8/23/2011 5:02:19 AM)
ch is sick of this stupid politics live and let live
(8/23/2011 5:14:43 AM)
Does this remind anyone else of the Obama birth certificate shpiel???
(8/23/2011 5:52:20 AM)
Why don't we just shut down the CH Beis Din once and for all?
(8/23/2011 6:27:02 AM)
ah finally peace
(8/23/2011 7:51:58 AM)
two faces
just a short while ago this same Rabbi shafran wrote a letter in defence of HaRav Schwei and HaRav Braun!
and, even in this letter Rabbi Shafran writes to harav Ozdoba: “I’m responding to the issues based on the details that you have given me”.
(8/23/2011 8:22:29 AM)
one sided rabbi
read what this Rabbi from Israel writes:

“I’m responding to the issues based on the details that you have given me”.

so this whole thing is one sided.
he did not listen to both sides!
(8/23/2011 8:23:47 AM)
No Laughing Matter
Actually, as serious as this situation may seem, I can only sit and laugh as I read this. I have not followed CH politics ever and this is the first time I read anything to do with this topic. I have no knowledge of Halacha but do know very well laws of being an honest person
As a complete outsider, one letter seems clearly written with specific guidelines while the next seems to contradict itself. This being said, many of the comments disagree with the more coherent sensible letter. It makes me laugh really hard.
(8/23/2011 8:41:31 AM)
This is can be very harming!
I know first hand of a woman who was migair by a frum orthodox rav who's qualifications were im dispute am the ch Beis Din would not allow her to marry until she went through a NEW giur.
So a rav with disputed credentials must be resolved because the long term unintended erects can be very damaging.
(8/23/2011 9:01:10 AM)
History Repeats Itself
As Rashi states in parshas V'eschanan states, why did the yiddin want moishe to appoint other dayanim? So that if someone doesn't like a psak from this beis din, he would always be able to get another rov to pasken in his favor. Enough is enough, the Zabla paskened and that it!!!!
(8/23/2011 10:26:07 AM)
20 year Anniversary

Fresser Rebbe says
for the last 20 years we have tried to either get rid of the Broyne people, or co exist with them (get it, since the Riots, broyne people) "SHMA MILSA HEE"
(8/23/2011 10:34:25 AM)
Clearity of mind
i'm not claiming to have anough inside or otherwise information to opine but When I see that Sam and Zaki are involved I feel good and assured that things will turn out the right way ( torah way ) as we know that torah and only torah dictates every aspect of their lives.
Chodesh Ellul is upon us may we merit rachamim rabim b/c we need it in every aspect of our lives.
K'sivah V'chasimah tovah to all c/h'ers B'sochichie klal yisroel. A fifti yaer resident of C/H
(8/23/2011 10:35:54 AM)
Very interesting
Today there is no Bair din of R' Rosenberg, and after the psak the zabla was no where to be found. Rabbi Osdoba consults with another rav, and you call it a scathing letter, you interview the opposition, yet there is no voice from the other side? Is that fair?
(8/23/2011 10:44:40 AM)
Be careful
We must be very careful. We are approaching elul, and achdus is far more important than these issues. These can all be resolved privately. All the people involved are all inteligent. There is abolutely no reason this needs to hit the net.
(8/23/2011 10:46:15 AM)
i have a solution!!
call the priest :)
(8/23/2011 10:46:25 AM)
"abir Shebeabirim"
what a blessing our community had since the most "beautiful"concept of electing rabonim by amcha can some one remind me of one good day please
(8/23/2011 10:51:14 AM)
Honest question
Had the situation been reversed with the other Rabbi winning and not having the"credentials" would these same protesters stand up and say the election was based on a mistake-mekach taaus - and therefore invalid and must be done over or not ?
(8/23/2011 11:30:01 AM)
you sound like you have an OLD agenda...
(8/23/2011 11:32:38 AM)
Inda Know
To #20:

Of course, you're right. One can choose to go (or not to go) to any Beis Din he wishes (or go to a Zabla, if there are two parties and they cannot agree where to go). The question was if a Beis Din with two hedyots is so totally forbidden as to prohibit a qualified Rov from sitting with them (as Shifran implies here).

Perhaps you should read my prior post (#18) again, more carefully.
(8/23/2011 11:54:55 AM)
Inda Know
To #22:

No, Rabbi Shifran is NOT in the same category as Rabbi Osdoba.

Rabbi Osdoba agreed to the zabla Beis Din of Rabbi Rosenberg which clearly poskined that Rabbi Braun was elected and that Rabi Osdoba could and should sit with him and Rabbi Schwei on the BD"Z of Crown Heights. Rabbi Osdoba is obligated to follow the Psac Din. He is continuing to refuse to adhere to it and working vigorously to weasel out of his obligations.

Rabbi Shifran is only issuing an incorrect opinion, based on reports from one side (which he should not do). He is not himself going against the ruling of a Beis Din which he is obligated to follow.

Their wrongful acts are significantly different!
(8/23/2011 12:06:26 PM)
shimon kohan
menachem mende shafran was my magid shiur (shiur dalet) in kfar chabad!!
(8/23/2011 12:36:42 PM)
The first statement disqualifies the rest and possibly himself as a rov!!!
His first statement : "A.1. I'd like to preface, I'm responding to the issues based on the details that you have given me." Is so outrageous since it asserts that the entire sharp letter following is based ona one-sided testiomny! following that statement is a statemnent that says to not listen and ask shaalos of another rov alll based on a one-sided testimony!!!

I personally conclude from that that everything following that first stament is invalid and void!

Furthermore, the rov who produces such a letter should be disqualified as rov and no one should ever ask HIM any shaalos!
Lastly, let us all chase out all the baaley machlokes who run from one rov to the to turn back what teh strong beis din of ZABLA already ruled. By doing so they are marbe machlokes and are machallel shem Lubavitch and Crown Heights. enough with you Mideonites!!!
(8/23/2011 1:06:22 PM)
Simple question
I'm just a simple person, so maybe I don't understand these things, but why is it so difficult to provide proof of smicha? Wouldn't there be a record of it somewhere?
(8/23/2011 1:13:58 PM)
Another simple question
I don't think it's a question of whether someone is learned or wise. If a person poskens halachah, that changes the teva (issur or heter) of the person's action in shomayim. If the person does not have proper smicha, isn't that a problem?
(8/23/2011 1:17:33 PM)
ask a shaila?
Would you go ask a rov who admits to writing scathing letters with only half (or a quarter) of the “facts” - “facts” that he heard from the arch enemy of this person?

Would anyone in their right mind go to this rov and ask ANY question?
(8/23/2011 1:18:26 PM)
Is this honesty?
A rov, siting thousands of miles away, probably never visited the neighborhood, spoke to only one side of a dispute, yet feels obligated to write a scathing letter against another Rov?

Is this justice? Is this honesty? Is this HUMANE?

(this is doubly bewildering, since these very issues have already been judged by a 5 Rov Zabl”o!)
(8/23/2011 1:24:09 PM)
daddy dearest
Braun was indeed elected..however in very shady circumstances.

The SHMICHA issue is another thorn. The infamous tearing of it was also something that will NEVER go away and will reflect forever on his stature.

The honorable thing to do - would be to really drop it all in NY and move back to Australia. His defiance and staying aboard says little of his integrity. Most will never adapt to him.

That said - the only good thing he ever did - albeit for other reasons was the pedophile bill which is a damn good thing.
(8/23/2011 1:29:26 PM)
to collive
if you are searching for articles of this nature to post, there are more then enough. can you stop posting these things, its over let matters take its course
(8/23/2011 1:49:40 PM)
# 54 - Simple question
I’m sure you know that the Zabl”a Beis Din - headed by Rabbi Rosenberg - have clearly ruled that they saw the Semichos and it is 100% valid.

To regurgitate these false accusations over and over doesn’t help anyone….

(This is clearly documented in the Psak Din as well as Rabbi Rosenberg’s “further clarifications” to Rabbi Osdobo dated 25 shvat)
(8/23/2011 3:02:47 PM)
EA shadchan 2012
Neither letter is anything approaching a psak din! They are both advice to the different sides! Whats so hard to understand?

Not only that, but they both make sense to both sides! As follows: If he wasnt suitably appointed, then the other Rabbonim dont have to sit with him [that wouldnt be fair to them; nothing to do with the strength of their collective psak].

But if his appointment was halachically binding then he has the same status of rav.

Nevertheless, if he isnt a SUITABLE rav, then although he keeps his status, the other rabbonim dont have to consider him their equal and one shouldnt ask him questions in halacha.

Unfortunately, there doesnt seem to be any way to prove that someone is definitely suitable once there is even a question about him.

DOnt think this belongs in the public domain. Really dont
(8/23/2011 3:06:23 PM)
To # 10
Majority elected him?

More than 50 percent of this community did not have the opportunity to vote. Neither the Rov nor the officials who arranged his position mean anything for the women, singles, etc.
(8/23/2011 3:06:51 PM)
It seems to me, that one side will not accept Rabbi Braun under any circumstances. The Rabbonim agreed to go before a Din Torah by signing and making a kinyan on a shtar Bierurin. What that means is that youy obligate yourself to follow the P'sak whether you win or loose. I happen to Rabbi Braun personaly, and i can tell you without a shadow of a doubt, he is a top rate Talmid CHochom
(8/23/2011 3:07:31 PM)
getting what he dished out
I can't believe he is getting what he dished out. R, Braun has damaged this community way more than any of you care to admit in the very short time that he has been in America.

You all seem to worry about the Rav that paskined without hearing both sides - well that is precisely what Braun has done and continues to do and he will merely eat his own medicine. I just cannot believe that he is such a "great" tzaddik that he is getting his punishment so quickly. ?!?!?!?!
(8/23/2011 3:09:30 PM)
dear inflamed #36
take a shower and cool off. Are you inflamed because you can't take the truth? Inflamed because you voted for R, Braun and you don't like voting for a loser? Why should the community end up losing because many of you were duped - consider yourselves fortunate that there are still Rabbanim that are not afraid to voice their opinion when they feel something is terribly amiss - how many are left today that will do so with the knowledge that they will most likely get negative flak??? Yet he still came forth . I am gladdened to know there still are such Rabbanim in our midst.
(8/23/2011 3:10:20 PM)
Just give r' osdaba the kasrus and he will be happy because that's were the money is and that's all he cares about
(8/23/2011 3:10:57 PM)
How do we know – what proof do we have – that Rabbi Osdobo is “suitable” to be a Rov? What do you want Rabbi Braun to prove – something that Rabbi Osdobo can prove the same thing???

If you demand proof from one Rov, it’s only fair to ask it from all. At any point before or during Rabbi Osdobo’s time on the Beis Din, did he “prove” he is ‘worthy’ and ‘suitable’ to be Rov? It’s not right to ask Rabbi Braun to prove something Rabbi Osdobo cannot.

Lets keep the playing field level and fair…
(8/23/2011 3:23:38 PM)
Equal treatment
Did Rabbi Osdobo ever have to defend his reputation from the scathing letter from Rabbi Z.S.D.? did you have to prove his legitimacy? Why is he demanding this now?
(8/23/2011 3:34:35 PM)
How did they looked at him in Astrralia?
Why did Rabbi Braun left Australia? did he lose his job there or gave it up? was he respected there? Did he create Machlokeses there? was he a posek there?
(8/23/2011 3:45:48 PM)
if #18 is r' braun
someone suggested #18 is R' Braun.. if so, it would be funny but it is not since lives are at stake. So Braun you're appalled at the fact that the Rav did not hear both sides? Is that bothering you ??????? Haven't you acted as judge and jury for the past few months after hearing total gossip from liars and gangsters??? Did you even want to hear another side? No way!!! Your mind was made up and shut tight!! Well you are merely getting a little taste of your own dish. I hope you continue to eat it!!!!!!!!!
(8/23/2011 3:46:43 PM)
Please clarify
Please help me understand the full picture with Rabbi Shafran:

First, there is a letter (dated 15 adar2 5771) addressed to the Rabbonim stating that the Psak of the Zabl”o must be adhered to without reservation (and chastised the naysayers).

There is a letter from the same time period addressed to Zaki Tamir stating the same.

Then there is this new letter (8 Av 5771) stating: although I don’t know the facts of the matter, and I have only herd from one side of the dispute….. and then goes on to write the exact opposite of the first 2 letters…

Has this Rabbi ever investigated this issue? Has anyone appointed him to rule on this matter? Can he even make up his mind???
(8/23/2011 3:50:37 PM)
I find nothing surprising in this whole matter. After all this is standard practice of many beis din litigant who have lost a din torah. They shop around for letters from Rabbonim who have no knowledge of the matter, have never spoken to those involved. Know almost nothing about the matter…. Yet they get these people to write letter that they shouldn't adhere to a crystal clear psak din of a beis din agreed to by both disputing parties.
(8/23/2011 4:13:50 PM)
Anshy bapub
Ch lebin yam is trukinish
(8/23/2011 4:31:38 PM)
Is this what Rabbonim have been reduced to?
A rov, siting thousands of miles away, probably never visited the neighborhood, spoke to only one side of a dispute, yet feels obligated to write a scathing letter against another Rov?

Is this justice? Is this honesty? Is this HUMANE?

(this is doubly bewildering, since these very issues have already been judged by a 5 Rov Zabl”o!)
(8/23/2011 4:40:18 PM)
This Posek is a nobody
This Rabbi is foreign to the matter. He never put a foot in CH, and who knew about his existence? (I can list you many Poskim from EY, but this Rabbi is not among the famous.) Moreover, from what he wrote, we can see that he is not a Rov but a novice when it comes to halocho.

R' Braun Shlita has won the election, he is valid and leave him alone.

i'm more and more disgusted by R" Osdoba's attitude.
(8/23/2011 4:56:18 PM)
Enough is Enough
Get rid of the fisherist!!! They are the cause of all these problems dating back to mem zayin!!!
(8/23/2011 5:14:03 PM)
simple nature
Listen to this short story the Rebbe relates about how a losing party to a Din Torah usually reacts...
(8/23/2011 5:17:36 PM)
I knew that Crown Heights and many "Lubavitchers" have an issue with Kibbud Rabbonim and perhaps some of those opinions are understandable as people have been "burnt". Nevertheless, reading these comments brings the reality to a new low. Bashing Rabbonim right and left and bashing a Rov in Eretz Yisroel for private correspondence which negates another private correspondence...Hello!!! He isn't paskening on a bais din here!!!
For the people who are going to throw Halacha at me, let me tell you one thing. You're right! I don't know the particulars of Halacha in this matter, but I do know Mesora and the importance yiddishkeit puts on Rabbonim. I do know kavod and I do have Yiras Shamayim. So before you throw your knowledge at me, ask yourself one thing, are you doing this lsheim shamayim? If you are, you won' t respond. Hamayvin yavin.
(8/23/2011 5:37:07 PM)
Number 87 you are wrong.
(8/23/2011 6:09:43 PM)
Kovod Harabbonim
where is kovod harabonim for them selves? from them selves? If i remember correctly (please correct me if I am wrong) the said that the Rabbonim have to have respect for them selves, and when they do some thing to remember that. So please take your disagreement to a private format and stop this in fight in public.
May it be so that we should want to say "look at our Rabbonim, how bekovod they are for one another etc"
(8/23/2011 6:41:34 PM)
Rabbi Shafran
Rabbi Shafran, you went against the principles you swore to uphold!!!! I'd bury my head in shame if I were you. Wait, there will be another letter from him soon attempting to whitewas this letter. The stain will stick, he's a goner.
(8/23/2011 7:14:41 PM)
Totally crazy
Who rips up a holy document like a smicha? Have you seen any doctor lihavdil rip up his medical license or his diploma? If a person cherishes his studies, learning and his smicha he does not tear it up. A dayan must have dayunus which is beyond smicha? I am a physician and pray one day to merit to learn for smicha. To have the greatest merit to learn in the Rebbe's Yeshivah and then rip up the smicha is scary to me.
(8/23/2011 7:33:36 PM)
charlie bottons
just make me the rov and all problems solved.
(8/23/2011 8:20:25 PM)
to number 2
(8/23/2011 8:47:22 PM)
I can not even read through all of these comments, because I am so disheartened and disappointed about the immature goings-on amidst some of our supposed leaders. Don't intelligent leaders come together and work out differences in a mature, respectful way? What is this? Well, one thing I think it is, is an example of adults who do not see past themselves for the larger good of their ideals. Some do not seem to be able to care about the PURPOSE of their positions, because they have such a selfish agenda. This is so, so sad. ( And so, so unfair to the rest of us who want to be representatives of righteousness and compassion in the frum community.) Can't someone DO something to make this work out in a Yiddishkeit way? And what way should a Yidishkeit way be?!!!! The Rebbe said we have the tools. Where are those tools? What might the Rebbe to handle this very, very disheartening problem that is putting such a negative message out into the world we live in?
(8/23/2011 8:50:20 PM)
First of all, how and why is a personal letter posted? Second of all, it seems to me that Rabbi Shefran responded to a letter, but not as the final word of a judge. He SAID that he was responding by knowing only one side of the picture! He has the right to respond to the one side he knows. Therefore, someone should write to him about the OTHER side(s). Third of all, is there a reason Rabbi Braun is not providing any documentation he is being accused of not having? If he has it, THEN what? If he doesn't, then there is another issue altogether. Fourth of all, how is a rabbi expected to conduct himself, anyway? Some of them need an intervention to cut through this. Or someone(s) needs to step up and do what is right. Morally right. Moshiach-ly right. Otherwise, what are we about?
(8/23/2011 9:10:30 PM)
embarrassed to be part of the lubavitch community
(8/24/2011 12:26:43 AM)
someone who knoow
It is so obvious braun was imported for the sole purpose of destroying. Sydney is till dancing for joy! Their gain is our loss!
(8/24/2011 12:36:00 AM)
Hisachdus may have it right
Fresser Rebbe Says,
In Satmar they have the Bais Din that does Dinei Torah, Shalos Etc. Then if you look at their lable, it reads " Bais Din Hameyuchad L'inyaney Kashrus" meaning that under the general Bais Din there is a seperate entety that runs the Kashrut, this may be the answer.
(8/24/2011 12:44:07 AM)
Rabbi Shafran
What was/is the purpose of his letter? Doesn't he understand that he's just pouring kerosene into the fire? He is just making the machzik bemachloikes stronger and the machloikes longer and wider. He's playing with fire because this affects directly a tzibur. Where is the siyato dishmayo a rov has? He is a mesayea lidvar aveiro. The 'even haboichen' is simple, did his letter bring achdus or more machloikes? No question on that it's very obvious.
(8/24/2011 1:30:34 AM)
halocho vs. shtick
so after going Rabbonim Shopping they found someone who caved to pressure and can change his mind - to me that shows allot!

one side listened fully to the Zabl"o even when it went eginsed them (allowing heacht to run, getting only one of their candidates in the Vaad, not allowing more then two in the run off..)

and the other side, just keeps on "finding" reasons, yes stupid reasons, why not to listen... blue pen red pen... and even after the Zablo listen to ALL their stupid arguments still refuse to obey!

once it becomes clear that the zablo is standing by its Psak and wont fold to pressure, they attack the Zablo itself! they even went rabbonim shopping for someone to hold like them, and found someone who caved to their pressure (he wrote TWO letters how they are totally in the wrong) and he finally went along with them (well almost he wrights that he only heard one side).

so to sum up: one side has halocho, the other has shtick and games and a rov who caved!

now which side are you on?
(8/24/2011 2:46:26 AM)
lashon horoh
Why do you have to tell the whole world about this
(8/24/2011 3:46:39 AM)
very unprofessional to here ONLY 1 side!
sounds like they schmoozed this (sincere) Rabbi in Bnei Brak!

he must have been flattered that they selected him out of all potential Poskim on the PLANET!

those who seek to delegitimize Rabbi Brown are so full of hate & machlokis! its very sad that they are being such shameful sor loosers!

its rather childish for them to invest soo much travel expensise, time etc just to hurt Rabbi Brown who's views goes against theirs!

why do a few haters with too much free time on their hand get soo much attention & power to try to destroy a otherwise growing progressing positive change for CH!?
(8/24/2011 10:33:35 AM)
Choose your rav and psak for 2 cents.
R' Osdaba remindes me of the man who had a toothache but was afraid of the drilling, so he decided to show the dentist a different tooth.

The matter was already decided by the Zabla Bais din, You can't keep choosing a rav to rule in your favor even if you are abir shebebbirim

(8/24/2011 10:46:54 AM)
Rabbin Shafran is an easy target!
this is not the first time Rabbi Shafran was used by people who played on his ego & presented themselves as sincere peaceful frum Jews!

had R Shafran known who he was being schmoozed by, he would have certainly sent them back to their godless pit! & told them to focuss on their Wife & Children instead of seeking to dredge up Party-based MAchlokes

this is reminicent of How the Vilna Gaon was hijacked by Trouble-makers whose only agenda was to hurt the Alter Rebbe!

i wonder how many Rabbonim did they approach before they found this conviniant target!

this Rabbi was the first Rabbi who baught their shpil! hook, line & sinker!

he will soon realize that after all the respect they pretended to give him, they are laughing at him behind his back! as finally "we found a fool who drank our story" & took the bate!

the rest of the Rabbis saw right through their real agenda! its all about machlokos at any cost to the community!
(8/24/2011 10:58:54 AM)
to all those supporting r' braun
you aint seen nuthin yet!! you are all gonna eat it and you aint gonna like it. Please don't come crying later saying OMG we thought we had it bad before. R' Braun is a trouble maker. I do not want to get too insulting and too specific because I am not looking to add fuel to the fire - but please understand they were thrilled or should I say ecstatic when he packed his bags to leave Sydney. There was a crew waiting to assist in the packing should he have been falling behind in his scheduled departure. Yes there are many miles between Sydney and New York but it won't take that long for us to feel the tremors of his arrival. I am already hearing some pretty ugly reports.
(8/24/2011 11:52:18 AM)
Wanda Ring
If Rabbi Osdoba will not accept the clear Psac Din from a zabla, what hope is there for the rest of us? Rebono Shel Olom!!??
(8/24/2011 2:35:04 PM)
with comment # 98
Look at that, why reinvent the wheel, why not learn from other professional communitys.

I checked the Hisachdus Lable, and yes, it reads " Bais din Hameyuchad L'inyaney Kashrut" great idea, the day to day running of the Kashrus should not be R' Osdoba nor R' Broyn, on the other hand they could both put in their input.

Maybe Rabbi Zirkind and a group of yirey Hashem that both distinguished Rabbis, Osdoba and Broyn agree to, they should run the kashrus, hey, the only other solution is to boycott CHK all together and eat what the rest of the Chareidy community eats, believe we are not the only frum community in New York.
(8/24/2011 2:37:50 PM)
In name only
Chasid in name only, beis din in name only, frum in name only, Jewish in a superficial and disrespectful and harmful way. Sad, sad. Individual motives need be examined by those individuals. Yom Kippur is coming up. This might be a good time to examine!
(8/24/2011 2:48:32 PM)
this is so pathetic
veahavta lirayacha kamocha-ZE KLAL GADOL BATORAH!!!!
I think u know the translation....

(8/24/2011 2:50:41 PM)
Why am i embarrassed to tell my community im a lubavitcher ?!
(8/24/2011 9:22:14 PM)
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