From the COLlive Inbox:
I would like to genuinely thank all the staff that have helped my son grow tremendously in Gashmiyos and especially in Ruchniyos over the first part of the summer.
My son has really gained a lot and has noticably excelled and matured of the short 4 weeks he spent at camp.
There is one thing however I would like to address; With all the good that my son has picked up over the summer there is some negative that has tagged along unfortunately. I’m not reffering to negative behaviour or bad Middos, those Boruch Hashem he excelled in. I’m reffering to emotionally. My son has gone to camp confident and fearless, but came back afraid of his own shaddow. He is afraid to walk home alone, and even afraid to go down to the dark basement for a moment or two just to retrieve something.
After making some inquiries, I discovered it is a result of a few stories some staff decided would be fun to tell the children. The stories consisted of previous staff members getting burnt and coming back to haunt the camp. My son described to me in graphic detail of how in previous years the entire bunkhouse (the one that he just spent his summer in) of children were ‘killed by shin daleds’.
The stories go on and on. This is something I believe needs to stop. Now, don’t get me wrong, as a staff member myself I had my fair share of this, I am guilty just like the staff who have scarred my son; in plays, after lights stories and overnights. I feel horrible for that. I would actually like to ask for forgiveness from all the people I may have phsychologically harmed, short term or long term.
The problem is a recurring one, I repeated those stories as a staff member because I heard them as a child. And it affected me for many years as well.
Let us establish this now, 99% of all kids in camp do not appreciate and cannot handle stories of this style content. Staff should be more sensitive and not play around with a kids future.
The Rebbe was against telling untrue stories to children.
Staff, please! Spend a few extra minutes before camp becoming more fluent with Likkutei Dibburim or other real jewish stories. Its no mitzva to scare a child.
Do you know what it feels like to be 14 years old and being afraid to walk home (around the corner) after school because of things your counselor or learning teacher told you six years earlier in camp?!?
Sincerely,
Concerned Parent
its not a reason not to go to camp
This is what counselours need! A little bit of education. They arnt sadistic or anything they just do what their counselours did when they were campers. If u see something say something. if you see something not good youre child got from camp, write it up and tell people about it.
Obviously from the comments people get scarred for life.Ask yourself:Do YOU want to be responsible?This is NO joke!!!
What he was “for” was giving yiddishkeit to kids who did not have it a whole year – that’s why it was started in the first place. What he was against – was that frum kids, who ALREADY know about yiddishkeit, should LEAVE a Yeshiva for TWO WHOLE MONTHS, go to a place where they DON’T SIT AND LEARN for as much time as they do during the winter, and worst of all – they participate in VILDEKEIT and disgusting goyishe activities instead of learning torah!? I was there by the Farbrengen, I heard the Rebbe say “S’IZ AH VILDE… Read more »
the rebbe was FOR camps. he visited gan yisrael and emunah. dont say he was against it.
Of course shouldn’t tell kids made up stories about ghosts and haunted houses and the like, but sometimes a true story can teach us a lesson. I personally lived in a house that had spirits and was “haunted,” things happening on their own, hearing voices etc. we went to a kabbalist who said there are neshamas trapped in our house and we need to add in tzedaka and make a shiur in our house so they can go back up. thus we don’t portray it the same as the world does, “ooooh, spoooooky!” but understanding the underlying existence that’s here… Read more »
#4- I think you know if you told a child a scary story. everyone- whether or not your afraid of scary stories, think of the childrens lives your changing. Your going to work in a camp- make a good influence. dont make the kid come back from camp scared of hid own shadow! This mother is obviously just showing her concern to her child and i think its disgusting and obnoxious that some people put her down for doing so. Maybe your immature now but when it comes to your own children, I think you would do the same. Thank… Read more »
seriously people- cud u kindly stop squabbling if the stories are scarey and u cud say them or not?! u really have nothing better to do than vent at each other and read thru 70 comments and detroit pride?! go do something worthwhile. maybe go read your kids a (chassishe) story.
not not not not not not not not not not not not not not not not not not not not not not not not not not not not not not not not not not not not not not not not not not not not not not not not not not not not not not not not not not not not not not not not not not not not not not not not not not not not not not not not
After carefully reading all comments on here, two things have striked me. First one, is. Are they really people who think that only some type of kids not be allowed on camps? Should more sensitive kids not be allowed in? or should they go, listen to these storyes, develop fears, and keep them inside, for the benefit of the others? There are many things that people do not realize, but are crucial points, among them there are the facts, that all type of kids, are found everywere, including camps, that is not something that could be stopped, and it is… Read more »
This had me thinking it was quite comical, its one of those issues that everyone has but no one pays enough attention to to bring up…glad to see crown heights is suffering through this together LOL. But very true point, I must say.
I believe that kids really grow and learn and gain significantly by attending overnight camps. There is a certain independence and ability that is acquired over the time away from home- usually and hopefully positive. Usually lasting. It helps kids become mature and savvy- in a good way.
If kids can’t even listen to imaginary campfire stories, how are they supposed to learn about truly frightening TRUE stories, like the Holocaust?
Can you repeat that but in civilsed language? You have a good point. Why ruin it with uncivlised language?
I had a counselor who knew to make us shiver from a simple walking in the woods story – without mentioning a single shein daled
The point is, either you teach you child to grow up or he will be a baby all his life
I have learnt a lot from this article about what goes on in a GAN YISROEL CAMP. And frankly i am SHOCKED. My children are now young adults and we never sent them to camp – we prefered family vacations together and reading this I am so happy we did that. Children don’t have to be made frightened to have fun. There is enough things in real life to be frightened of than adding fear in totally unnecessary ways. A Camp Gan Israel – which should cater for EVERY TYPE OF CHILD – not just the toughies, is meant for… Read more »
Why aren’t the counselors LEARNING with the kids instead of telling stories?! The Rebbe was SCREAMING at a farbrengen of yud bais tammuz 5745-1985 – that it’s ah vilde zach! He was referring to the fact that Yeshivos shut down for the summer, and kids go to “camps” tzu zach tzuvilderen for TWO WHOLE MONTHS – instead of sitting and learning?! Does all the sick and perverted things that are happening now, not send a clear and simple message of what kids should be doing during the summer?! First they tell them stories, then they give them mashke, then they… Read more »
were not talking about ‘prison’ stories.
we are talking about ‘shin daled’ stories. Big difference.
prison stories don’t create phobias. Shin daled stories (most of which are not even true) do.
What’s next, a demand to censor the stories of Moshke bring thrown into a pit but the Paritz?
Or maybe not disclosing the fact that Yud Beis Tammuz is a yomtov because the Freidiker Rebbe sat in a very scary jail and murderous people wanted him killed?
Life is not a ferry tail, tell your boy to grow up because reality is much more harsh than those semi-scary stories he heard in camp.
“a bissel seichel“
Allot of kids enjoy these scary stories, ‘this is what camp is’. – But is that is a good enough reason a minority should suffer for fears and phobias for YEARS? In order some kids should have the right to a thrill that lasts a few minutes – this should outweigh the damage of other kids that last many YEARS?
A thrill for a few minutes – OTWEIGHS- Fear and phobias that last for many YEARS?
The problem is, those capmers who do get scarred for life, many of them also ‘beg’ for these stories. They are fun (read arousing-, fear arousal) at the time. But the (arousal) fear can last many years. And even though at the time its ‘fun’, many kids suffer phobias for years.
The Lubavitcher Rebbes memoirs the best book ever written!
yes we certainly have to take into account the feelings of children who are more sensitive but there must also be a balance.the problem is that many of todays parents are so over protective that they actually criple their children emotionally.
when i was camper and i would here these scary stories i would get scared for that night but the next day i was over it. no matter how scared i would get at the moment, i had fun listening to them. its a part of the camp life, and most campers (including me) beg for it. and to what #59 said- i dont agree. why should the kids who want it- which is the majority- not get it because of one or 2 kids. those kids dont need to listen if its going to “scar them for life.” they… Read more »
I TOTALLY AGREE WITH 42!!!
43% of 3 year old kids (who never went to camp) and still have dreams and nighmares of monsters under the bed, or in the closet. They don’t watch TV either. Maybe they know about such things from the Gemarra.
i fully agree i told a really scary story countless times untill s/1 left camp because of it, i ask mechilla,
guys come on please. weather it 99% or 1 kid or if the story’s are fun or the kids are “Party pooper precious snowflakes with helicopter parents” IT DOS NOT MATTER. IF EVEN ONE KID CAN WALK AWAY HARMED OR “DAMEGED” UNHAPPY AND EVEN ONLY CRY JUST FOR 5 MIN. AND GET OVER IT, IT IS PLAIN AND SIMPLE WRONG. WE CAN NEVER KNOW WHO THAT KID IS SO WE SHOULD NOT TELL THOSE STORYS YES ITS FUN AND EXITEING BUT ON WHOS EXPENS????? STOP MAKING FUN AND PUTTING DOWN SENSETIVE PEOPLE, THEY EXSIST AND THEY ARE PEOPLE AND SHOULD… Read more »
excuse me! chutzpa!
what u write just shows immaturaty. why ruin a perfectly true and honest article by putting in thos comments
HOLOCAUST stories!
This is a part of camp–telling scary stories around a campfire. I remember, years ago, an album of Golem stories including the scary “Dogs of Gehenom!” My sons loved it and listened to it over and over, and shared it with their bunkmates at camp. I heard scary stories at camp 50 years ago. My kids heard scary stories 20 years ago, and now their kids are being entertained by scary camp stories. It is a part of growing up! If there are some kids who are really scared by this (to the point of crying, wetting the bed) then… Read more »
Amazing how this story has garnered so much attention. I am 40, I went to camp for many years as a camper, and frankly, I still have certain fears because of those stories told by sadistic counselors who somehow got a thrill out of scaring kids. I was a staff member for many years, and I NEVER did that. As I got older I realize that these staff members who engaged in this, unfortunately are dealing with a lot of other issues. This is a sick behavior that should not be taken lightly. I really applaude the author for raising… Read more »
that is not true a) we do say scary stores and the camp is gr8
wrong! this is my seventh year working with kids, sixth overnight camp, five of them as a counselor. i’ve worked in these places long enough to know what the kids love and hate, they love these types of stories and beg to have them told. and i had case with a boy in my bunk who was scared of monsters under his bed, hiding in his closet, etc. so i spoke with him for a while, and he was fine for the rest of his stay in camp. he actually had a blast! these stories of kids being scared is… Read more »
i dont agree with you
You are asking mechila, but you don’t sign your name?
Is that mechila?
Why are parent such a bunch of babies nowadays….
We are turning our jewish kids into the same kind of bleeding heart *&%#$ like the new york Goyim!!!!
Yaaaaaay, no scary storys!
(but the camp isnt great)
Judging by the varied of comments here it is clear that different children respond differently. The job of a camp is to allow for kids to grow emotionally and spiritually in a FUN in a SAFE environment. If it does not achieve that for ALL kids that it is failing at its main mission. As a head staff many years ago, the older teenage “bunk” did a play about the story of R’ Gavriel and his wife and the dybbuks from Zichronos. We made a huge mistake of not vetting it properly and of allowing the younger bunks to watch… Read more »
I’m 30 years old and still scared of the dark.
Are Disney stories and movies for children, any less scary?
All I rememeber from camp is my bunk begging my councilor to say these stories…. And when we misbehaved he would skip the stories put us to sleep then go down to canteen have a BBQ ….. That is the life of a councilor ( what do u expect from a 18-19 yr old bochur)…..than once him and another councilor would come back to the bunk wake us all up and scream pop corn party…. Than we would go running in the forest in what was called survivor….anyone get where I’m going with this? This is what camp is all… Read more »
What is happening to our communities that this article has received as much positive attention as it has already? The Rebbe never said that telling untrue stories was not allowed. Many of the stories we read as kids, and were approved by Merkos, were not fully true (many were based on true events but were predominantly fictional). Think of the Marcus Lehman (translated by Nissan Mindel) novels. They were historical FICTION! Another point to address is that there is very much positive value in these Shaidim stories. I agree that if the story gets to violent or graphic then there… Read more »
if you put it out of your mind
say brochos
have a mezuza etc
in other words, lead a good jewish life
there should be no problem, right?
is this true.
from what i remember from these stories,
the ppl who were effected were weak in their observance
am i right?
need some Sh-D 101 education here!
It seems that some counselors have sadistic streaks – and this is their way of playing out on it.
The fact is that not every person who is a counselor should be a counselor.
Funny, I was thinking about posting a similar article not about scary stories but about the colorwar and bogwar breakouts. Why scare the kids for such a fun thing? Why can’t they do something totally out of character confusing the campers and then breakout? Camps should take note. Kids do NOT like to be scared out of their minds.
Nothing wrong with a scary story here and there … maybe sometimes some go over the top, and I agree, lets not get too graphic or personal (using the actual bunkhouse the kid is sleeping in may be too far) but lets not create a generation of PC over protected kids.
By the way, how can anyone accept your apology for your own scar(r)ing if you dont give your name??
I so happy to be sending my child to a camp that is sensitive about these these things . b”h
it appears that more harm is done than good, that more people have fears from these stories than they do inspiration. Therefore, find another way to entertain your campers…thats why you are paid/tipped (hopefully.) I’ve been a counselor many summers and never had to rely on a scary story to get the camp going, they had fun from other fun stories, funny skits, and plenty of activities.
I’m sorry but I couldn’t stop laughing after reading this
BS:D yes as a 9 or 10 year old I went on a 2 week ym_a camp.One night they took us into the woods built a camp fire and told scary stories with added scary effects.50 years later when it comes to mind it gives me the shivers.The bunks had no bathrooms, there was separate building with the bathrooms, but after that everyone was too scared to go out at night.
I agree with #29. My kids have been going to camp for a good number of years and look forward to that crazy scary stuff. They know how to separate reality from fantasy. There’s a reason why horror flicks rake in millions of $$$$$$$. People like them. My boys actually become more independent in camp. Who knows, maybe they don’t tell them so scary where I send them. Bottom line, if the author has a problem he should contact the head staff of his kid’s camp. The fact that he writes an op-Ed about kinda makes me thinks he’s a… Read more »
I AGREE WITH YOU.
1) the guy who wrote this article made up the 99 % of kids don’t like scary story statistic. Did you poll every kid in camp? why are you speaking for 99 % of people.
2) “The Rebbe was against telling untrue stories to children.” Where is the source for this???
I totally agree 100% with the article, the consequences are for years and there is no need to scare kids like that
Number 6 . . .the fact that you are tho ONE and only who said “Oh please”, as opposed to 25 comments who felt exactly the same as the writer . . . I guess you’ve never had to handle kids who have ”gone thru” Shin Daled nightmare stories!!
I think one should not comment if you havent experienced their trauma, first hand! I am the 26th who totally agrees with the writer and every single camp leader should be strongly warned againest it, Thank you for bringing it out into the open
sorry but i love these stories although when i was in camp last yr the colour war break out was that there were shin daleds in our bunkhouses and shul and some campers were rly scared and cried the whole night..
There are three types of kids: Normal Kids: The one’s who love Shin Daled stories (and precisely because they’re scary). These kids are about 65% of camp Normal and sensitive kids: The ones who get terrified from such stories, and follow their parents advice not to listen to them. Such kids are 30% of the average camp. Party pooper precious snowflakes with helicopter parents: These are the kids who know they are going to have their wits freaked out, but listen to the stories anyways, and then run crying to their mommies that they’re scared. This is the last 5%… Read more »
can someone tell us here a shin daled atory so we can know what we.re talking about?please..?
and the same goes for staff plays. I never understood the concept of like competing with last year staff plays scaryness
I was traumatyzed for 5 long years because of ONE particular story about “Shin Daleds” I was told of! Icouldn’t sleep by night, so I was sleeping in class! B’H, I recovered from that, and I had brilliant Rabbinical studies which culminated with a Smicha.
Be careful about what you tell chidren.
make scary plays either… such as the “beis din shel maala” etc.
you know if you dont want counselours to say scary stories by the bonfire then maybe you should make a little book of coool stories to say by the bunfire
Lets focus on the real monsters in the jewish community…
Although we knew of shin daleds from shelomo hamelech book when we were 7
this would not happen in DETROIT! as you are not aloud to scare campers in a play or stories they have had this rule for over 15 years
shin daled stories are a integral part of camp. all kids know and want those stories and if campers are too afraid they can always ask a counselor to stop
Very true. I hope the camp administrations are reading this article and will covey the idea of this article to their staff now while camp is still going on.
And doing a color war breakout with half the camp supposed dead is equally pointless, disturbing, traumatic and without any heter in halacha.
The same goes for the ridiculous concept of telling kids scary things for colorwar breakout – e.g the water in camp was poisoned. Why should colorwar be preceded by terrifying children?
I am scared of the dark. Please help prevent other children from having this same fear.
“The Rebbe was against telling untrue stories to children.”
When I was a staff member there was this safer going around that had a bunch of true Saidim story’s.
“Spend a few extra minutes before camp becoming more fluent with Likkutei Dibburim.”
Did you know that there is a shaidim story in Likkutei Dibburim!
I must say that when I think back to my camper days one of the things that stuck out is the shaidim story’s. I LOVED THEM!
(Except that it was not about my bunk house, It was about the other camp 🙂
I love shin daled stories!! They are so cool!! my best memory of camp was telling those shin daled stories getting all scared and all sleeping ineach others bed!
I don’t blame them!
Thanks for pointing this out. These stories effect lives for many years to come. Not only children suffer from these stories. From personal experience, I can testify that this fear can lasts long after marriage. My wife is petrified during the night – afraid almost every single night because of stories of shin daleds — stories told in camps (and maybe school). Even to spend a single night home alone without her spouse (or some other adult family member present), is unbearable. These stories might be fun for the counsellors during camp, but they too often leave lasting psychological trauma.… Read more »
im 17 and still scared but ive got 2 say those stories were thrilling i loved them 🙂
oh cmon! although it is true..
What’s your name?
When I was 10 ,38 years ago another girl scared me about shin dalids up in the Catskill mountains. I still remember the fear of walking home and being unable to sleep for months. We must be very careful
Could not agree with you more. I am a counselor in camp and juts today one of the campers asked me to say a story about Shin Daleds and I clearly said I DON’T say stories about Shin Daleds. I hope more teachers and counselors would do the same. A number of years ago I was asked to substitute a class. Towards the end of the day I was told to but on a “Jewish” story tape. I put on the class room tape recorder and was horrified at the content that was playing on the so called Jewish story!
i agree fully there is also the problem the untrue stories generally dont have toichen
which camp?
they told scarey (non true) stories around the camp fire. i never forgot them – it really scared me in a real way. not pleasant.
cut out the scary stories
100 % true
we should educate this staff to have more toichen to teach.
Too true