Jan 12, 2011
Letter Challenges Communal Rule

Rabbi Yoel Kahn, Rabbi Avrohom Gerlitzky and Rabbi Berel Levin challenged the ruling of okaying the mandate of the new Crown Heights Bais Din member Rabbi Yossi Braun.

Rough and unedited translation of their letter:

To the esteemed Rabbis, judging the arbitration proceedings regarding the Crown Heights Jewish Community, Rabbis; Avraham Boruch Rosenberg, Moishe Havlin, Yosef Hecht, Boruch Boaz Yurkowitz, Binyamin Kuperman.

Greetings:

We are responding to a recently publicized letter that was signed by Rabbi Rosenberg “in the name of the Beth Din”, without identifying the supporting members of the “Beth Din”, we are therefore addressing this letter to each and every member of this Beth Din.

We must preface and emphasize, that one shouldn’t imply from this letter that we accept your authority to judge in these matters, [as we already wrote you in the past the reasons why we feel that many of the issues that you address in your ruling are completely out of the range of the deliberations that took place in front of your court] – nevertheless, since your letter was publicized, we feel obligated as it is our duty to alert you to some of the issues in your letter that we feel are in error, and are full of contradictions, etc., as we will explain forthwith.

Before we address the core issue of your letter, we find your attitude in this letter very strange. You have taken an approach which doesn’t address the subject matter in a transparent way which will be understood by the community and lay to rest all the doubts, but rather you chose an approach of “revealing one bit and concealing two bits”.

This approach repeats itself time and again as you broach the issues that need to be addressed, and instead of clarifying you write: “this matter doesn’t need to be addressed”, or you write, that: “for various reasons we chose not to relate to this matter”, and in some instances you mention certain issues and documents, and you write that you won’t publicize these items or documents, “because Rabbi Yosef Yeshaya Braun Shlita prefers that they not be publicized”!

It would seem that an issue that affects a very large and very important community, on a matter that the Rabbis have been deliberating for four months – would result in some semblance of serious consideration for the needs of the community, so that your ruling should be listened to by the public, and not to take an attitude of withholding very basic and important information from the community.

And now to the issues at hand.

a. In your letter you address many complaints and challenges to the election or Rabbi Braun – but you conveniently ignore one basic argument that was presented to you, and this is the issue of the lack of “Shimush” to the Rabbinate of Rabbi Braun. As we wrote you in our previous letter, there is “it is clear from what we heard from the community of Sydney, that this candidate had no Shimush and no experience in any field of Rabbonus in the Sydney community (i.e. judging on Dinei Torah’s, Kashrus, Mikve, Gittin & Kidushin, etc.), and that he served only as a spiritual leader (a mashpia, teacher, lecturer and orator, etc.). So how can one suggest that we take such a person, from such a small community, one who has no experience in the Rabbinate, and hire him as a Rav anywhere, let alone to appoint as a Rav in such an important community as ours?!”

And it must be emphasized, that the Rebbe’s opinion is clear, that the issue of “Shimush” for the Rabbinate is most fundamental in the qualifications for a candidate to have, if he wants to serve as a Rav of a Jewish community, as the Rebbe clearly said on Shabbos Mishpatim 5747 (in connection with the Rabbinate in Crown Heights!):

“It is so essential to have Shimush Chachamim – as the Gemara states (Sota, 22, a): “even if one has studied, and is well versed (in Torah and Halacha), but he didn’t practice Shimush in front of Talmidei Chachamim, he is an An Haaretz!

“Meaning, “Shimush of Talmidei Chachamim” is not just another advanced level in the Rabbinate, i.e. that there are various levels in the Rabbinate, one who has Smicha just for Issur v’Heter, “Yore Yore”, and then there is one who has an additional Smicha of “Yodin Yodin”, and above him is the one who also has “Shimush of Talmidei Chachamim”, (such is not the case) – rather, if one has no Shimush in front of Talmidei Chachamim he is not a Rav, but he is an Am Haaretz!

And in spite of the Rebbes clearly stated opinion on the necessity of Shimush (as a pre-condition to qualify as a Rav), you chose to completely ignore the challenge on the issue of the lack of Shimush (by Rabbi Braun)! Perhaps you chose to ignore this issue, because in your mind you included it in the category of challenges that “there is no need to address them”, or perhaps your deafening silence on this matter, is due to the fact that you did indeed investigate and you justifiably came to the same conclusion as we did, that Rabbi Braun has no Shimush for the Rabbinate. If such is the case, how do you withhold such important information from the public, and you dare go on to approve such a candidate for the Rabbinate, in spite of his lack of such a major requirement set forth by the Rebbe!

b. When commenting on Rav Zinners letter regarding Rabbi Braun, you write: “after the elections a rumor was spread that this Smicha (from Rav Zinner) isn’t legitimate and/or it is a forgery, etc. And the evidence was based on the fact that the letter wasn’t written on Rav Zinners stationary, and that it wasn’t dated, and the language didn’t compare to other Smichas issued by Rav Zinner” . To which Rav Rosnberg responds: “in fact I spoke to Rav Zinner, and I saw several of his letters that he wrote to the elders of Chabad, from which it is evident that he in fact signed this Smicha and it is indeed not a forgery”.

Seemingly, Rav Rosenberg makes a good case, after all Rav Zinner did admit that he signed this Smicha. However, Rav Rosneberg reveals only part of their conversation, while he fails to disclose significant other parts of his discussion with Rav Zinner.

Rav Rosenberg fails to reveal that in his conversations with Rav Zinner, Rav Zinner told him that he remembers signing a recommendation letter that Rabbi Braun himself drafted, but he was very clear about the fact that it’s not clear to him that the publicized letter is actually the one that he signed. As a result, Rav Zinner requested from Rav Rosenberg two times, that he should ask Rabbi Braun to produce the original letter that he actually signed, for positive identification purposes. And still, till this very day, Rav Rosenberg failed to follow-up on this request!

Therefore it is clear that Rav Zinner never admitted to having signed this publicized letter (not in his conversations with Rav Rosenberg, nor in Rav Zinners letters to us), and he didn’t agree that the letter produced isn’t a forgery. All Rav Zinner admitted to, was that he signed a recommendation letter of support for Rabbi Braun, but he never admitted that he signed this publicized letter. Au contraire, since the original letter was never produced, it would seem that one can deduce that there are differences between the original and the publicized copy, which someone is trying to hide.

Which one is it: If Rav Rosenberg asked Rabbi Braun to produce the original document and Braun refused to produce it, then this reinforces the suspicions that there is indeed reason to believe that there is some forgery or fraud being committed here . And if Rav Rosenberg didn’t follow-up on Rav Zinners request, and he failed to ask Rabbi Braun to produce the original document, then this lack of action on Rav Rosenbergs part, reveals Rav Rosenbergs attitude to this entire matter, and it reflects on the level of investigation conducted on this case by Rav Rosenberg.

c. Rsponding to Rav Zinners claim that he never intended to issue a Smicha to Rav Braun, Rav Rosenberg argues (in article 6), that really it doesn’t matter, but “since the letter of support includes wording of Smicha” and such language is only used “for someone who earned to receive Smicha”, therefore “automatically this letter remains to be a perfect Smicha”.

Although Rav Rosenberg doesn’t explain why this letter remains to be a “perfect Smicha”, he seems to be consistent in his opinion, as he states in footnote 12: “our (Lubavitch) Smichas are not really Smichas, but rather a sort of testimonial that the musmach has the necessary knowledge to get such a certificate”, therefore, when Rav Zinner included in his letter “wording of Smicha” this serves as some sort of testimonial that Rabbi Braun has “the necessary knowledge to receive such a certificate”, therefore this letter “remains to be a perfect Smicha”, since any Smicha is no more than just a testimonial.

Such an interpretation of the letter should suffice only for a very shallow overview. However if you review the content properly, you will realize that this answer doesn’t hold water, for many reasons:

a) The Rebbe clearly states that issuing a Smicha (isn’t just a form of testimony, but that it) is a “passing on of power”, and obviously this power can only be delegated if the Masmich gives it with this intention (see article E), and since Rabbi Braun only asked Rav Zinner for a letter of support and Rav Zinner never had in mind to issue a Smicha, obviously there was no act of “passing on of any power” to Rabbi Braun.

b) Rav Rosenberg himself states (in article 5) that Rav Zinner told him “that the support letter for Rabbi Braun wasn’t written by him, but that he only signed it”, which means that rabbi Braun is the one who wrote the letter and he asked Rav Zinner to sign it.

Understandably when one signs a letter that someone else prepared, especially when he is under the impression that this is not a serious letter but only a letter of support (which will have no practical applications), he won’t scrutinize it seriously before he signs it.

Therefore you cannot deduce that there was any sort of testimonial here by Rav Zinner on Braun’s knowledge.

Go figure: This letter says “I support him .. to prepare Gittin and Kidushin according to Torah law” , there is no doubt that even Rav Rosenberg wont claim that this is some sort of testimonial, and therefore can serve as a Smicha, to organize Gittin and Kiddushin.

d. Rosenberg continues in footnote 14: “another Smicha was submitted to us, and it’s dated one year before the election, and there are strong reasons to conclude that this Smicha on its own should be sufficient. But since this Smicha wasn’t necessary, we preferred not to relate to it for various reasons”. This statement is extremely puzzling:

Being that “there are strong reasons to conclude that this Smicha on its own should be sufficient”, why don’t you take this Smicha seriously? Why not use a clear unchallenged Smicha it as the one which will qualify as a Smicha for Rabbi Braun? Instead you resort to some suspicious questionable document with which you are struggling to kasher it with difficulty, and you try to establish that a letter of support and recommendation, qualifies as a Smicha for Braun, when you have a perfect other Smicha to rely on? Why “did we choose not to relate to this for various reasons?”

The obvious conclusion is that the “various reasons” not to relate to the second Smicha, is because there are some doubts pertaining to this Smicha. So let’s speculate, what could be wrong with this second Smicha? Nobody is claiming that the second Smicha is just a letter of support and not a Smicha, and the date of the Smicha says clearly that it was issued one year before the election, so what may be the problem?

There is only one possible problem with this second document, perhaps there is some forgery or fraud (on the entire document, or that perhaps this Smicha was issued after the election and they changed the date). So the obvious question that begs to be asked is: How can the Dayanim “not relate” to this document to try to establish the accuracy and authenticity of this new Smicha?

Which way is it: If after good research you will conclude that this document is an authentic Smicha, then this would be the most perfect conclusion to this drama, and it would establish an authentic proper Smicha that Braun received before the election! If on the other hand research establishes that there are problems with this second Smicha as well, i.e. that there is some forgery (with the entire document or with the date), then we must conclude that there is a problem here not just with the Smicha, but there is a problem with the trustworthiness of the one who produced this Smicha to the Dayanim of this Beth Din!

If this is true, then it makes no difference if Braun produces new 10 valid Smichas, this man is completely unfit to serve as a Rav, as he is capable of committing forgery and fraud.

e. The Rebbe states his opinion in the Sichos several times, that although the concept of “Semuchin (rite of passage direct from Moshe Rabeinu)” doesn’t exist in our times, nevertheless even nowadays Smichas are connected to the Smichas that were issued “person to person directly up to Moshe Rabeinu”, meaning that there is definitely a special power entrusted to the recipient of the Smicha all the way from Moshe Rabeinu, unlike Rav Rosenbergs stated opinion that Smicha these days is only a testimonial.

So being that the focal point of Rav Rosenberg’s decision is concentrated around the idea that Smicha is only a testimonial , and therefore Rav Zinners letter of support can serve as a valid Smicha, it becomes clear that Lubavitcher Chasidim cannot accept such a Psak.

Therefore it is wondersome that Rav Rosenberg writes that “he signs in the name of the (entire) Beth Din”. Since all the other Dayanim are Lubavitcher Chasidim, how could it be that they don’t mind that things written in their name which are in sharp contrast to the Rebbe’s opinion?!

Even if we would assume that the Dayanim have other reasons why they Pasken this way (even if there is no hint of any other reason), and they agreed to the letter only because they support the final Psak, nevertheless, when you write “in the name of the Beth Din” it includes everything written in this letter, including the statement that Smicha is only a testimonial, so if they remain silent, the community will assume that they agree to this statement also. So in other words we are saying that it is so important to approve Rabbi Braun as Rav in Crown Heights, that you can even agree to an idea ( which is totally against the Rebbe), and cause a tremendous public Chilul Hashem.

The only way this can be rectified, is by having each one of the Dayanim state clearly and publicly; that in spite of Rav Rosenbergs “signature in the name of the (entire) Beth Din”, nevertheless, this detail wasn’t written on our behalf, and that we totally and unequivocally disagree with its content.

f. In addition to Rav Rosenbergs opinion that Smicha is only a testimonial, it seems that even this version of Smicha doesn’t mean such to him.

In footnote 8, Rav Rosenberg writes: “if it would become absolutely clear that Braun still has no Smicha, it would seem that we would lean to invalidate the results of the election”. In other words, according to Rosenberg there still exists a possibility to appoint a Rav even if he had no Smicha! And although he concludes that it “would seem (that we would nullify the elections)” he still implies that it is not an absolute no, and that there still exists a possibility to approve him.

The reason, because Rav Rosenberg doesn’t value Smicha as a necessary and serious matter!

[Incidentally, it is worthy to note another point in Rav Rosenbergs attitude: This Beth Din already established the first condition to qualify a candidate for the Rabbinate, that he must have Smicha. As a result, the candidates were qualified to run by meeting this basic condition, and on this basis the community went out to vote. So how can Rav Rosenberg come now and claim (in article 8) that “this matter is still in the hands of the Dayanim to decide, and that they can still change their mind after the fact, and approve a Rav that has no Smicha?” This approach only highlights Rosenbergs lack of regard for the public and the community].

It is self-evident, that one who completely and emphatically doesn’t believe in a concept, be it what it may, cannot be included, and most definitely not be relied upon, to judge and rule on this concept that he doesn’t believe in.

For example, if a Rav isn’t particular in not using “Chalav Stam”, would anybody suggest to appoint him to supervise and determine the standards of Kashrus of Chalav Yisrael, for those who are particular to drink only Chalav Yisrael, and that he should decide which milk is good to use and which should not be used?!

g. In spite of the fact that all that what we wrote here is simple and abundantly clear, still we are concerned that being that it is difficult for a human being to retract his stated position, especially a “psak din”, no less a psak that was seriously publicized. Therefore there is reason to worry that since in your original psak it was publicized that the candidate for a third Rav must have the approval of one sitting Rav of Crown Heights (Rav Osdoba or Rav Schwei), and the Beth Din will trust these Rabbonim to verify and establish the legitimacy and qualifications of the candidates. It is worrisome that in spite of all of the above, this Beth Din will still lean to rule that Rabbi Braun should serve as the third Rav in compliance with your original psak that it is sufficient that only one Rav of the sitting Rabbonim testifies to his worthiness to serve a s a Rav.

(Obviously this should not be taken as an insult, but this is the nature of humanity, and “Shochad blinds the wise, and derails the words of the righteous”, including those on whom the Torah states that they are Chachomim and Tzadikim).

Therefore we find it necessary to quote the Alter Rebbe (Igros p’ 87): It is well known the saying of our sages that a Talmid Chochom who ruled, (if he said it before the fact then we listen to him) but if he ruled after the fact we don’t listen to him, even if he quotes his teacher we suspect him of lying, how much more so in our case when we are not so much concerned about lying, but rather it’s is a matter that the heart must understand, that your heart should listen and accept our words”.

We would also refer you to Shu”t Chasam Sofer Hachadoshos (Cho”m siman 48 p. 91 col. 2) that “a person is poised by nature to uphold his original words, and there is reason to worry that they will circumvent the proper path”.

Therefore, the only solution to this matter can be if you will submit this issue to a committee of neutral Rabbonim, and let them review all the matters pertaining to the qualifications of the candidate (re: Smicha, Shimush, etc. etc.). And after a thorough investigation, they will publicize their conclusions, in a manner that leaves no doubt in its transparency, to the entire community.

Respectfuly,


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Opinions and Comments
1
crown heights resident
This whole thing is a joke that we could allow someone to be elected to a position to which they will fill for life without truly vetting him is mind boggling.

The fact that R' Braun has the chutzpah to ignore the rebbe's directives I'm sure he will pay dearly. We are talking about our yudishkeit questions about mikvah and he is passing himself off as a rav? he and his backers are playing with fire.

where's the fear of G-D?
(1/12/2011 11:31:34 AM)
2
Reb Uoel
Is a BEACON OF LIGHT in this whole parsha Ashrecha!!!
(1/12/2011 11:45:34 AM)
3
How dare they!
They have zero authority to speak against ANY Rov, especially a Zabla-Beis Din. This is Torah. It's over. All they are doing is making a joke in public. Stop it!
(1/12/2011 11:49:01 AM)
4
Crown Heightsers
The problem is people in CH are basically apathetic already. Years of strife, as well as the constant underlying currents, made them completely apathetic. This whole thing seems simple and I believe I can put it in just a few lines. Hes scared to produce him(if he does) smicha. If a Doctor is scared to produce his MD, you would never trust him. But here I hear Anash of Crown Heights who simply don't care that it's so questionable. Oh, and it seems obvious to me at least that if R Zinner says he didn't give it as smicha, that we should probably beleive him. Hapeh she'asser hu hapeh shehittur, and you can't easily tell me the reverse isn't true. Produce something real, or publicly apologize for this sham, go to a mashpia, and ask for some sort of tikun to rectify this horrible mistake.
(1/12/2011 11:53:56 AM)
5
not from crown heights
Being from out of town I have been following the election proceedings and they have been comical to say the least. I am curious as to how someone who is not a Crown Heights resident was even allowed to run in the election in the first place. I would think that to be eligible the candidate must be living in and knowledgeable of the community. Some clarity about the matter would be much appreciated.
(1/12/2011 11:56:17 AM)
6
what else is new
the fisheristen are back to square one: fighting a elected rov.

come on. move on. get it through your head your candidate LOST the election. move on and stop fighting the beis din.
(1/12/2011 11:57:01 AM)
7
Our Sages Have Commented
Less Din, and Less Dayan
(1/12/2011 12:03:35 PM)
8
Tips
for tips on get elected under circumstances that don't even allow you to run you can call the offices of Rahm Immanuel in Chicago
(1/12/2011 12:09:40 PM)
9
The Outsider
I'll tell you one thing. As an outsider looking in, the Crown Heights community (specifically, its leadership) seems like a bunch of clowns who can't get anything right. There seems to be nothing that can be accomplished in any area affecting your community without infighting and unnecessary politics.

After the Rebbe ZTZ"L's passing, many Chabadnicks said that their leadership will lie in the Rebbe's letters and teachings. You can see how far this is getting you. Without proper leadership your community will crumble and deteriorate both physically (government funding, housing etc.) and spiritually (lack of qualified rabbonim and hechsheirim etc.)

Good luck to you all!
(1/12/2011 12:14:39 PM)
10
Appalling
This letter is appalling. If you think Rosenberg is not neutral, why did you agree to a Zabla? And once you did agree to the Zabla, of what relevance are these arguments? Make them to the court BEFORE it rules—not after!
(1/12/2011 12:16:08 PM)
11
Very upset
I don't care who the people are -

This is a straight-out fight against a diplomatic and Torah-run community!

They wanted to put somebody in who was famous for his fights in the past against justice and fairness.

Now that they were unsuccessful in getting him in they turn against the Beis Din that has been working for creating peace and justice in the community.

Shame on you!

When will you learn that the Torah, justice and the Rebbe's Rotzon will ultimately prevail over all the bullying tactics (in whatever form they may be expressed).

May we no longer have to suffer from people who put their own interests before the Rebbe's, and we should only have to speak good things about others, and finally be able to have a community run Al Pi Tzedek VeYosher Al Pi Torah.

Hopefully these letters will be seen for what they really are - mere distractions from our important work in repairing and building our community - and ignored accordingly!
(1/12/2011 12:20:40 PM)
12
Yiishar Koach!
Yishar kochachem for speaking out on this - finally some baalei deah publisized their real opinion on this circus
(1/12/2011 12:21:21 PM)
13
Come on already
Rabbi Braun won the elections.

Get over it.

Looking forward to a bright future with the new Beis Din and better-functioning community.

Mazal Tov.
(1/12/2011 12:27:32 PM)
14
ZABLA
Rabbi's Osdoba and Schwei signed a document that they would accept the outcome of the Beis Din headed by Rav Rosenberg.
Rav Rosenberg gave his Psak.
So let's go ahead – bring Rabbi Braun to Crown Heights!
(1/12/2011 12:27:43 PM)
15
Kol Hakavoed to COL for posting this.
(1/12/2011 12:33:34 PM)
16
Shameful
On the people who wrote this letter attacking the very Beis Din who is working for a open and upright community Al Pi Torah!
(1/12/2011 12:35:50 PM)
17
Reb Yoel & Rabbi Garlitzky
the fact that reb yoel feels its against the rebbe is enough, as there is no greater mumcha in the rebbe's torah than reb yoel, and the fact that rabbi garlitzky feels the same is a very strong statement, as it is known that rabbi garlitzky is, perhaps the biggest talmid chacham in the torah's ha'niglah of the rebbe
(1/12/2011 12:40:40 PM)
18
Something "smells in Denmark"!
or should I say Sydney
(1/12/2011 12:42:52 PM)
19
who did the vetting?
Who was supposed to check out the candidate's qualifications and credentials - Rabbi Rosenberg or one of the sitting CH rabbonim?
(1/12/2011 12:47:18 PM)
20
TO YOU DEAR RABBI'S
give up, just let it go, stop the machlokes, there was a din torah, you lost, now move on. do we need to r"l lose more kids and parents c"v.

torah advices to go to a din torah, we did, now there is a psak. we cant say the psak works only when we win, but not when we lose.

the 3 rabbi's that signed this are carrying the flame of machlokes on there sholders, and people will only lose respect for them like elisha ben avuyah
(1/12/2011 12:49:03 PM)
21
Noch eyner
We have to listen to the psak until another bes din tells us otherwise. I hope this letter is a sign of something substantial, and not just hot air to get everyone worked up.
(1/12/2011 12:56:26 PM)
22
finally a normal voice
bh, a few upstanding and g-fearing residents of CH have stood up to the terror and mafia and have openly written the truth
(1/12/2011 1:00:22 PM)
23
resign gracefully
If half of the community didn't want him to begin with, before any problems have surfaced, and a good portion of the other half relied on the questinable credentials in their vote, shouldn't the guy just resign gracefully instead of imposing himself against the will of majority - had those problems been known before the election? Now that the problems have surfaced, wasn't the whole vote in error - mekach tous? does he view this job as just another business where kol de'alim govar? if his candidacy alone causes so much controversy, why does he keep pushing himself on the people?

Even if does have the paper showing that he actually passed the tests before the elections, where have you seen another rov who would be pushing himself so hard to force his acceptance upon community?

Save your honor and resign in grace - why not stay where people like you instead of trying to impose your rule upon people who reject you. What motivates you so strongly to push aside all the objections? The honor of the Torah? Do you believe yourself to be the best suited candidate? The honor of the community? Do you really believe the people will unite in accepting you if this Rabbi Rosenberg manages to push his psak down the community's throat?

Do you believe getting this postion in such away will do anyone any good, benefiting anyone besides yourself?
(1/12/2011 1:04:13 PM)
24
Dear Rabbi Braun
I have nothing against you personally. I don't know how I would have voted if I had the right to vote. But with all the questions being raised I think the best thing you can do for yourself would be to withdraw. What do you need it for? What does your family need it for? You want to come into a community where you'll be spit on and mocked by half the community? You don't deserve it and your children certainly don't deserve to see their father dragged through the mud. Right or wrong, semichah or no semichah, the best thing you can do for YOURSELF (forget about the community) would be to withdraw.
(1/12/2011 1:09:44 PM)
25
Please Help
This is getting very confusing. On the one hand it was agreed to listen to the Zabla, on the other hand these Rabbis make very strong arguments.

Can somebody provide a Halachic perspective (with sources of course), on who we as a community must listen to and if this Zabla is binding on the community or not.

If it is, then will these Rabbis (who signed the letter), abide to it?

And if it is not then what is their plan on how we will get over our disagreements, because we've been to a Zabla already and they've given their Psak, now what?
(1/12/2011 1:09:59 PM)
26
Headline ?
What does the headline mean? The letter is not challenging communal rule. It is challenging Rosernberg's ruling. Huge difference.
(1/12/2011 1:12:34 PM)
27
AN OPEN REQUEST TO THE CURRENT RABBI's SCHWEI and OSDOBA
Dear Rabbi Schwei and Osdoba Shlita,

In response to the current situation in Crown Heights, and in relation to the process that has brought more uncertainty then peace. Please put out an open letter to the community regarding your position of the current Psak.
After the initial voting took place, I like many others in the community were ready to welcome our new Rav, we understood that this was the will of the community and it was just that. Unfortunately, many questions came up following that and now there is only one way for this to be resolved. You must work together to clear up the doubt!
ANYTHING SHORT OF BOTH OF YOU GOING BEHIND CLOSED DOORS WITH NO ONE ELSE IN THE ROOM, AND EMERGING WITH A JOINT STATEMENT REGARDING THIS RULING IS UNACCEPTABLE AND A DISSERVICES TO US ALL.
Leaders lead, and it is time for the two of you to become leaders. Setup a time to meet in the next few hours and come to a decision. ONCE AGAIN, DO NOT ALLOW ANYONE ELSE TO BE IN THE ROOM, DO NOT ALLOW ANYONE ELSE TO HAVE AN OPINION! You are the current undisputed Rabbonim of Crown Heights, it is time you start taking your responsibility seriously. Do not leave this for others!
If after spending time together talking, you cannot come out with a joint statement then you have two choice. 1. We start the din torah again, this time with a Lubavicher Rabbi. 2, each of you should publish individual recommendations, and either we vote as a community for which one we want to go with or we split the community and go our separate ways. (Even though that is how it is not, at least we will be open about it.)
Please understand, this is the position of most of the Crown Heights residents. We need leadership and we need it now as it already might be too late for us and especially the next generation.




asking together for an impartial judgment on Rabbi Rosenbergs psak. It is important for us as community members to see from example that you will both work together to make sure there are no un-answered questions.
(1/12/2011 1:15:35 PM)
28
Another CH resident
R' Braun hasn't stepped onto American soil and already faces so much opposition.
I wonder why he even wants to come here.
(1/12/2011 1:21:31 PM)
29
Whoa re they?
Who are these people to state an opinion? Did anyone elect them?
(1/12/2011 1:22:30 PM)
30
It's so sad
Crown Heightsers (including myself) live in a helpless mud hole.

Is it any wonder that so many kids are going off the derech? When nobody has the slightest respect for anyone else and the constant petty bickering... So sad...
(1/12/2011 1:26:54 PM)
31
YOU VOTED HIM IN!!!
Dear Crown Heights Community,

You voted him in! Its too late! You get what you ask for!

The majority of the community elected him. Thats how elections work.

Screaming on COL or in the streets wont work. It will discredit him, but more than that, it discredits the whole negihborhood, all the rabonim who were similarly elected and the whole Crown Heights establishment.

The younger generation will continue to have no respect for anyone.

Is this good for Lubavitch? Or good for Crown Heights?

Please explain t
(1/12/2011 1:34:17 PM)
32
to number 3
Telling Reb Yoel and the Rosh Yeshivah -who is one of the bigest Baki's of Torah in the world that its torah is the joke
(1/12/2011 1:34:36 PM)
33
menachem
Why wasn't the issue of Rabbi Braun's qualifications to stand for the Beis Din position addressed before the election? I have no personal knowledge of Rabbi Braun's qualification's for the position, but since he was accepted as a canditate standing for election it stands to reason that
he was qualified for the position. It appears from an outsideres point of view that it is just a question of sour grapes. These Rabbis are upset that he won so they want to find some dirt on him. I am not very impressed by them or their methods.
(1/12/2011 1:36:44 PM)
34
Rulling of the Beth Din
Rabbi Osdoba and Rabbi Schwei signed Zablo accepting the Ruling of the Beth Din headed by Rabbi Rosenberg.

Rabbi Rosenberg in the name of the Beth Din says that the elections were valid.

So let us follow the ruling. stop all Machloikes. And bring the third Rav - Rabbi Braun - to Crown Heights!
(1/12/2011 1:37:00 PM)
35
what a shanda
I learned by them all and feel sad they are becoming the faces of machlokus…

ver hot iech gebeten..

please do your jobs teaching and being a dugmah Chaya for the bochrim … you 3 are a fine example…
(1/12/2011 1:37:11 PM)
36
R, Korf
why didnt R' Pincus Korf sign this as he signed before? - because Rabbi Osdoba and Rabbi Schwei signed Zablo accepting the Ruling of the Beth Din headed by Rabbi Rosenberg. and Rabbi Rosenberg in the name of the Beth Din says that the elections were valid.

(1/12/2011 1:39:45 PM)
37
Smicha?
Does Rabbi Rosenberg have Smicha?
(1/12/2011 1:43:53 PM)
38
stinks
It stinks from fraud. Perhaps by looking who is pushing the Braun agenda should give you an indication of whats really happening behind the scenes.

Rabbi Moshe Bogomilsky is a Rov with both Shimush Experience, and Smicah. - Why not bring him in, not only will the community get someone compitent, but also, a Rov who will command the respect of the greater community, [not just the beis moshiach / shcway el al]
(1/12/2011 1:44:29 PM)
39
the day will soon be here
Rabbi Bruan will be here soon BE"H
boy oh boy will some people look stupid.
(1/12/2011 1:51:43 PM)
40
Funny
It's sounds funny - that all residents of Crown Heights have Semicha...except the Rav...!!!
(1/12/2011 2:05:08 PM)
41
to # 11
the fist half of you coment is plain stupidety the second half is brillant
(1/12/2011 2:11:19 PM)
42
Are they CHeighters?
They may be right in what they wrote, but...Where do they live? In Crown Heights or in Eretz Yisroel? This is called interfering in the affairs of a foreign community. What would they think if a Rabbi of Poland had to issue a critic in an issue for the community of Tzfat?
(1/12/2011 2:17:43 PM)
43
Rabbis?
This three individuals are not Rabbonim and are not part of the baalei dinim involved in the Din Tora. They just have an agenda: Their candidate lost and their intentions to take over the Badatz fail. They have no right to demand any explanation from the Zablo BD. Rabbi Dworkin once complaint to the Rebbe that he's getting 'brivlach' from one of these people, the Rebbe told him do what I do put them in the waste.
(1/12/2011 2:20:59 PM)
44
Fraud Is Fraud
To all those saying that we accepted this election and that Braun won so that's it, i am sorry but if Braun lied and gave a false Smicha as his qualification then the whole election is null and void!
And to those asking why this issue wasn't bought up before the election, that's because no one dreamed that a "Rov" would falsify his qualifications. there was also no time to really check him out as he was snuck in 2 weeks after the deadline!
Rabbi Osdaba called for a panel of internationally respected Lubavicher Rabbonim to evaluate and recommend the various candidates way before Braun was brought in.
(1/12/2011 2:27:58 PM)
45
Shameful
The election was for the CROWN HEIGHTS Beis Din. What happened and who won are not their business. They should mind their own business and leave Crown Heights mind its own business.

When HaRav Kahn critisized the low level of tznius at the Ohel, I agreed with him, because the Ohel is where our dear Rebbe rests (it's the business of the whole Chabad community all over the world), but when it comes to contesting the election of the CH Beis Din, why does he interfere in the CH business?

If the Psakei Dinim of the CH Beis Din had an international scope affecting all Lubavitch communities around the world, so I understand that they can criticize, but this is not the case? CH Beis Din is for CROWN HEIGHTERS.

And btw, NO, I'm not a fan of Rabbi Braun, but he was elected and only CH residents can complain about the results, not Rabbis living in EY. That's the end of the story. How is it that we are unable to turn a page and move on something else?
(1/12/2011 2:32:07 PM)
46
Absolute Nonsence
The rabbis who wrote this letter have absolutely no standing to object to the Bais Din Proceedings.

They were not part of it. If they want they can make their own.

The Vaad Hakohol and other rabbonim were bound by this and they MUST live with these results.

This is a terrible message to send to the younger generation. The message is you dont really have to listen to a Rov who paskens. Look at these great people argueing. It is too late. The psak is in. Live with it. Since when do they care about the Badatz anyway. Just for machlokis , this is terrible. If they don't like Rabbi Braun, then don't ask him your halach question. There will be plenty of people who will gain spirituall from Rabbi Braun
(1/12/2011 2:34:13 PM)
47
TORAH
someone please help me make sense of this.

As frume yiden and chassidim we are thought from very young to listen and carefully follow the directives of Rabbonim.

Here wee have a beis din - Zabl"o - AGREED apon by Rabb Osdobo, Rabbi Schwei and all the relevent battleling parties in these issues. This beis din issued a ruling, and now we have some Rabbis (- did they ever realy respect this beis din?) come out and tell us not to listed the the psak din?

in their letter, they call the psak din a LETTER??? and when they actually use the words psak din they put in quotation marks (")? is this respect? is this Torah? is this chassidus?

didn't the Rebbe say countless times that anyone who says something in the name of the Rebbe that is contrary to Halacha - we should know that it is 100% false?

A Beis Din of 5 distinguished Rabbonim - voluntarily agreed upon by all parties - and signed clearly that NO OTHER RABBONIM can have any influence in the psak din after it is given - yes, they signed in the 'shtar borerus' they they will NOT go to any outside rabbonim if they dont agree with the PSAK (and that no other beis din can intervene in ANY way, shape or fashion!).

I believe that as Jews and Chassidim, there is no other option other then to FULLY accept and follow the Psak Din of THIS zabl"o.

Moshiach Now!
(1/12/2011 2:34:54 PM)
48
was there an agreement?
Is it true that Rabbis Osdobo and Shwei (and the vaad hakohol) signed that they agreed to accept the ruling of this zablo?

Now that the Psak is not to the liking of some individuals, does that exempt the community from following the laws of the torah - namely to follow the Psak Din of Rabbonim?

What is going on over here?
(1/12/2011 2:41:21 PM)
49
ZABLA is ZABLA is ZABLA
Rabbi Schwei and Rabbi Osdoba agreed to a Zablo. That means that they defer to the decision of the Beis Din - however that comes down.

If Rabbis Schwei and Osdoba would do as they committed, and come out and put their confirmation on the Psak, everyone else would melt away.
(1/12/2011 2:42:26 PM)
50
where is the link?
If there is a link to the actual Zabl"o agreement - from before the din tora began, kindly post it for all to see.

If I'm not mistaken, there is clear language there forbidding any outside rabbonim from mixing into this issue in any state of the developments. I believe it will show that the demands of the above letter are clearly forbidden in this instance.

please shere it with us all. thank you!
(1/12/2011 2:44:15 PM)
51
Meir
it seems like there are some who never want there to be peace in this community and will do all in their power to continue fighting. in my world, once you agree to go to Beis Din (zablo), you must follow the ruling - regardless if it benefit you or not.
(1/12/2011 2:47:04 PM)
52
Rabbonim fan
Interesting letter from 3 people that always followed and backed the CH beis din... Why did R' Bogomilsky not sign this letter too?
(1/12/2011 2:53:40 PM)
53
Purim?!
Is this for real or a pre-Purim shpiel?

After a Psak Din by a Beis Din, if you don't like the result, you can higher highly skilled writers and thinkers to author a letter that you don't need to follow the ruling?

Yes, Reb Yoel is brilliant, the other 2 rabbis are quite smart as well. but what does any of this have to do with the obligation of a religious Jew to follow the ruling of the holy tora?

Tora mandates that we follow the ruling of the agreed upon Beis Din (like it or not!)
(1/12/2011 2:54:34 PM)
54
Chabad chassidim
There were Ovdim, Maskillim, BaaleiNigleh.

The responders on this article give rise to a new title.

That title would apply to those who:
(a) discredit the authors out of hand;
(b) Still cling to the notion that Braun won the election (it wasn't him, it was a "virtual Braun" that turns out to be not the real thing. The "virtual Braun" is welcome by all to come and take his honorable seat. What is under discussion is - does he really exist? );
(c) are so into the political angle of the issue, that they are incapable of thinking, let alone clearly;
(d) the naive Western oriented "newcomers" who are not familiar with the intrigue that needed to exist under Stalin, and take the words of manipulators as truth;
(e) those who are clueless in determining and identifying the manipulators. (Here is a hint: Follow the money. For whom has tens (100's?) of thousands been spent; and for whom have 5 wealthy baalei batim signed to guarantee the salary Braun is announcing;
(f) for those who think that bringing Braun at this moment would accomplish anything.
(g) for those who jump to the conclusion that a Bogomilsky supporter hides behind everyone questioning the election because of the elusiveness (and highly questionable) that emerged only AFTER the election.
(1/12/2011 2:55:14 PM)
55
This will never end! what a disgrace!
Dear rabbi's if you in fact went over this letter by Rabbi Rosenberg you would have noticed that he wrote "there is a smicha written from one year before the elections". and if in fact Shimush is missing let rabbi braun spend two three month by a beis din and get the shimush (unless Rav Rosenberg, who is a rov feels he does not need to). While you may not feel you need to listen to him, most G-d fearing Jews that live in a community whose representatives "vaad Hakohol" hired a beis din, do feel it is important to follow the Torah and listen to a Beis din.
(1/12/2011 2:56:45 PM)
56
What are we teaching our youth?
What are we teaching our youth? if you don't like a psak din, just shop for some other Rabbonim who agree with you? and then blame the Rebbe for it r"l?
(1/12/2011 2:57:33 PM)
57
#42
All three live in CH and always have. chochem!
(1/12/2011 3:02:01 PM)
58
ta-eesi
Reb Yoel is a gaon and maskil in chassidus -however history has shown again and again back to Rabbi ZS Dworkin, then (in the later years) badatz of CH and now Rabbi Rosenberg..He does not know his place....
when it comes to chassidus there is no Gaon like him but when it comes to politics then there is no one more mistaken!
(1/12/2011 3:03:10 PM)
59
SIGNED
Rav Osdoba and Rav Schwei (and the vaad Hakohol) signed that they agreed to accept the ruling of this Zablo!

Now that the Psak is not to the liking of some individuals, does that them from following the laws of the torah?
(1/12/2011 3:04:13 PM)
60
to #15
that is not the point. The point is that he is either hiding something, or is a fraud, regardsless if Rav Rosenberg allows him to come on board, we deserve to get the best of the best, not someone who is underqualified, and is sneaking his way in.
(1/12/2011 3:09:38 PM)
61
@ 42 Are they CHeighters?
Where do you live?! if you lived in CH you would know that they have all been living here for over 30 years, Reb Yoel over 60 years.
@ 43 Rabbis?
Really? Rabbi's Kahan, Levin and Gerlistky are not Rabbonim?! what world do you live in?
(1/12/2011 3:10:31 PM)
62
outside rabbonim
I don't begin to understand. Halacha has ruled. All the quarreling parties agreed to go to this Bais Din. They specifically waived any ability to get other rabbonim involved at any point down the line - regarding these disputed issues.

How can outside Rabbonim now come and attempt to interfere? the "nogim bedovor" clearly committed to follow the ruling of this - and only this bais din!

Let us residents of Crown Heights live. they finally agreed on a path towards a solution. This Bais Din offered their Psak Din. this is "final"!

Please, according to the written and signed agreement, no other Rabbonim are allowed to mix in.
(1/12/2011 3:27:47 PM)
63
shame on us...
Shame on us. Didn't we ever learn to follow halacha?

When 2 parties have a dispute, agree to settle it in Beis Din, and the beis din rules in favor of one party, what does the holy torah mandate and require us to do?

Find other rabbonim to write a letter that they agree with the opposing/loosing party???
(1/12/2011 3:32:19 PM)
64
Boruch N. Hoffinger BS"D
Anyone out there have aspirins?
#27 sounds very wise.
Why doesn't Rabbi Rosenberg and his 'beis din' come out publicly now answering these, perhaps, valid claims?
Clarity.
I voted for Rabbi Braun and trusted the 'zebla beis din.'
(PS Whoopee! I'm the only one who signed his/her name! At least I'M PROUD AND UNAFRAID OF WHAT I WRITE. All you others, PERHAPS, exhibit the type of middos that this community DOESN'T NEED: Lack of self esteem-fear.)
(1/12/2011 3:32:57 PM)
65
to all
first of all Braun does NOT have a job as of Rosh Chodesh Adar, he was given notice so he has nothing to lose by going to CH

secondly, the comunity as a whole is not bound by this Zablah. this was a case bettween individuals.
(1/12/2011 3:35:08 PM)
66
great pilpul
very deep pilpul. but what does it have to do with halacha?

Torah tells us to follow a psak din - whether you like it or no! bring me 100 pilpulim from Reb Yoel shlit"o. It dos not change halacha.

The Beis Din has ruled..... period!
(1/12/2011 3:47:09 PM)
67
as an outsider who lives in fla
i believe you have to invalidate the past elections due to the questions raised about semicha and his inability to release the other information and letters

i also believe that rabbi bogomilsky should not be allowed to run as to his involvement in the backdoor politics with rabbi marlow.

let us join together with another candidate who can join them who is recognized as a great torah leader and ask Rabbi leibel Shapiro to give to crown hieghts 3 days a week. everyone acknowledges that this CH community is falling apart and due to our new elections oin the council and the removal of everyone except for zaki and now we see chanina and associates back we need to start anew
(1/12/2011 3:47:12 PM)
68
All parties agreed!!!
All of the parties agreed that this Beth Din (Zablo) will hold authority and power over this issue. and that any doubts and questions that arise from the Psak can only be dealt with by THIS SAME Beth Din (Zablo) and no other Rabbonim.

All relevant parties signed to this!

NO OTHER RABBONIM have the Halachic right to mix in to this.

they can meet with and present their ideas PRIVATELY with the Beth Did (Zablo) but for crying out loud - not over the internet!,

But in PRACTICE they have no say as to what will happen!
Please bring Rabbi Braun to Crown Heights!
(1/12/2011 3:47:50 PM)
69
my opinion
They will have to search for someone not necessarily Lubavitch,as in the past, to be the rav. It seems that accepting one of our own is too much of a challenge for us. It seems likse Lubavitch has an identty crises and can't accept one of ours as a leader. Sort of like the reason we haven't appointed a new Rebbe. Its time to let go and move on. Maybe we will just have to wait for all of the oldtimers to move on to the next world.
(1/12/2011 3:50:56 PM)
70
Agreement?
Please read the signed agreement between the 2 battling sides. they agree that at no time shall any other beis din interfere with any issues involved in the implementation or interpretation of the rulings of the zablo.

additionly, only this zablo rabbonim have the sole power to interpet any issue arising from the implementation of the psak.

all argument here is in vain. the only authority in these issues the the beis din lead by rabbi rosenberg

www.collive.com/show_news.rtx?id=5224&hl=zabla
(1/12/2011 3:56:58 PM)
71
I have nothing to say
on this very important issue.
(1/12/2011 4:18:42 PM)
72
baal habays in crown hights
I am very soprise that R. Garelitzky speaks againt the psak din, any other psak that you are against also will comment? or only the psak that you like, you supose to know what is the jewish law when there is a psak din of a Rav, you go other one? very amaising.
(1/12/2011 4:19:21 PM)
73
Valid and True
Historically (Rabbi Levine can testify to this) even when a true Rov was elected legally but issues were raised thereafter, as in our case, the election was null and void and the Rov was told to stay home.

For all those commenting that there was elections so this letter at this point is out of hand, this argument holds no water and is simply based on pure ignorance, as the issues being raised are integral issues in this case, meaning that if the elected Rov is unsuitable with usutiable credintials, the election was fraudulent, hence null and void.
I commend the Rabbonim who write this letter and agree that Rabbi Rosenberg mishandled this case with the utmost belittlement of this great community from day one.
How can you people out there be so apathetic to such fondumental issues, especially when this is the Rebbes shchuna and all these issues were so close to the Rebbes heart and Rabbi Rosenberg takes the total opposite approach. Where are the Rabonei Chabad to speak up? its high time they spoke out.
My feeling is that the Chabad Rabonim as Zabla will not get involved as the one main argument is of shimush which i personally and many out there know that they were elected without shimush! (possibly Rabbi Rosenberg included) but to be Melamed Zechus the Rebbe was agreeable in there case for them to learn on the job! but not in this case!
(1/12/2011 4:27:12 PM)
74
nothing new here!
thees same people fought Rabbi Morlow O.B.M. and the whole B"D of CH, for many years.
this is just a continuation of there old fights
the fact that they are Talmidai Chachomim just makes it worse!
Shame on them

p.s. what happened to the other people that signed the first letter how come they didn't sign this one?
(1/12/2011 4:35:53 PM)
75
If the president..
dosen't have to prove he is a citizen...the Rov dosen't need to prove anything at this point!
(1/12/2011 4:42:12 PM)
76
zeev meir
Do you know that after/during the elections for the Beis Din in 5747 there were also choshuve people that went on a all out war against the elections and candidates - in the "name" of the Rebbe...
(1/12/2011 4:43:37 PM)
77
to #10
the zabl"a was between rabbis schwei and osdobo. the three rabbis who signed this letter were not party to the din torah and thus they have little or no obligation to follow its ruling.
(1/12/2011 4:44:46 PM)
78
to #42
all three rabbis that signed this letter have been crown heights residents for decades. check your facts please.
(1/12/2011 4:46:10 PM)
79
to menachem #33
rabbi braun's candidacy was made official less then two weeks (!) before the election. that isn't nearly enough time to sufficiently vet a candidate.
(1/12/2011 4:47:53 PM)
80
People need to realize
The realty is that out of haste and a much lack of knowledge the CH community elected someone who seems in very many ways isn’t fit for a position like this. Now it’s a mess!

A community the size of CH with all the elements etc there, should have a senior Rov who has much experience in the field, and someone who is largely respected not only by the CH community but also to be respected amongst other Lubavitch Rabbonim around the world as well it would do much needed good.

Rabbi Brnum has none of the above; the Rabbnos in CH is not a place for him to learn the trade over the years.

People need to realize this.
(1/12/2011 4:52:17 PM)
81
halacha
"Ein achar mayse BD klum"! There is no other BD in the world that can revert this psak. Let them go back to the library, yeshiva and sefer hoerchin and stop the machlokes.
(1/12/2011 4:55:27 PM)
82
Doesnt make a difference who u are
Everybody just Shut up and get on with with your life. Enough making problems. Doesnt matter how holy u think u are. Stop causing machlokes in the name of torah.
(1/12/2011 5:01:25 PM)
83
all those against rabbi braun your all wrong
Its about time that an Australian says something...i personally am born in sydney and still live their and pray and learn by rabbi braun"s shule tzemach tzedek, i know rabbi braun now for a very long time..he is a rav who paskans shilla"s and who learns all day and who fabrangs alot and some who dedicates all his time to his congregation...I have been to his house andi have personally seen the frame with his rabanical smicha degree....rabbi braun is an amazing man who changed sydney...for all those against him and dont even know him and just here things and repeat it to other people without knowing anything do youself a favor stay quite and stop speaking bad about other people......for all those who will continue speaking badly about this matter just remember ist beacause of your loshon horah bad things are still happaning in this world,control yourself and just do the right thing...live and respect...do acts off good and kindness and moshiach will come like the rebbe promised us...
(1/12/2011 5:02:40 PM)
84
Halacha is Finahl
how can this be? how is it that such respected people go out against a Psak Din of a chosen Bais Din?

When it comes to halacha, all these peoples genies and arguments seem to be irrelevant. I was taught that once a Beis Din - which you have agreed in writing to go to and abide by it's rulings - comes out with a verdict - it's final.

All these arguments are theoretical and have no bearing on the community's responsibility to fully comply with the Psak Din.
(1/12/2011 5:02:51 PM)
85
mekach tois
Rabbi Braun's candidacy was a mekah tois from the onset. Halachically, this whole sordid affair needs to be redone. You will need new elections and a new candidate.

(1/12/2011 5:03:32 PM)
86
Rebbe's view
The letter above is a masterpiece showing how the process of electing "Rabbi" Braun is completely flawed. Rabbi Rosenberg must take responsibility for allowing Braun to run without Smicha. Instead of saying he is negiah bedaver, Rabbi Rosenberg decides to cover up his mistake. Rabbi Braun, for your sake ,stay where you are. The money for your salary will dry up very fast and you will be without a salary in NY. Avrahom Gilman
(1/12/2011 5:03:46 PM)
87
Member of community in Sydney
In response to issue # a)

With due respect to Rabbi Yoel Kahn, Rabbi Avrohom Gerlitzky and Rabbi Berel Levin.

Are really serious that you doubt his experience regarding issues that arise in Beis din and Shimush? You must be joking!!!! Rabbi Braun is at the forefront of the Sydney Bais Din. He has been a Rav whom myself and most of the Frum community lubavitchers, litvishe, modern orthodox and non- frum have turned to regarding halachic issues since his on-set in Sydney.

I'm sorry to say but this letter from the above - mentioned Rabbis highlights there ignorance in these matters and that they CLEARLY havent done their homework and spoken to credible people in the Sydney community to factualise there information.

Let me say this, whist i'm not involved in this whole story of whether Rabbi Braun should move to Ch or not. One thing is certain that his knowledge in Halacha and dealing with people surpass probably about 90% of the rabbinic world and if you doubt me just give him a call.
(1/12/2011 5:07:35 PM)
88
zabla
a taanah of mekac taois it is, but it is not a toeh bdvar mishna, and mah shasa asuy, is it les din vles dayan.
(1/12/2011 5:24:52 PM)
89
insulted
I don't understand how this community can accept Rabbi Rosenberg's statement that by Lubavitch real smicha doesn't matter. That is one of the highest insults that anyone can say about Crown Heights and Lubavitch.

Doesn't this mean that according to Rabbi Rosenberg our kiddushin and gittin and geirus, our taharas hamishpoche shaalos...etc... are not important nor to be trusted by people outside of our community? What are we - second class citizens? Would Rabbi Rosenberg accept one of us or our children for a shidduch with someone in his own family?

If the answer to even one of these questions is "no" that means that he is mocking us and all we stand for and all that the Rebbe stood for and imparted to us. How can we accept anything that he says, or allow him to shape the beis din, which must be trusted to decide on life and death isues?

I personally don't care which particular person is named the new Rov, except that he absolutely MUST be a true Rov, a yira shomayim, someone who realizes the weighty responsibility he has each and every time he poskens a shaalah, or gives a directive to the community.

If Rabbi Rosenberg does not believe that this is what the Crown Heights community wants and needs, then he should not be trusted to decide anything for us.

It is very unfortunate that our search for a Rov has gone on so long, but if, in fact, Rabbi Braun does not have the proper qualifications, then Rabbi Rosenberg should be man enough to admit his mistake and not penalize the rest of us for the rest of Rabbi Braun's life. Obviously if Rabbi Braun does have the proper qualifications then he should make them known to the beis din, and to Rabbi Osdoba and Rabbi Schwei so that they can inform our community of that fact.

If an engagement or marriage is made based upon false pretenses, it is invalidated. How much more so should it be for an issue of this import which affects every single member of our community and its future unborn members, and the Chabad community at large!
(1/12/2011 5:27:06 PM)
90
Re-Election
A stand up nation like Ukraine called for re-elections a few years back due fraud why can't we do the same knowing what we now know and being at least as stan upish as the Ukrainians
(1/12/2011 5:29:40 PM)
91
to # 42
Are you asking if R' Yoel and Rabbi Gerlitzky are CHers or if they live in Eretz Yisroel? You sound like you don't live in Crown Heights yourself.
Just to answer your question:
R' Yoel has been living in CH from before you were born! And probably Rabbis Gerlitzky and Levin as well.
(1/12/2011 5:37:58 PM)
92
to # 43
to which rov was it? rabbi levin, yl, or reb avrohom? intresting to know. please reply. for that matter anyone who knows of this story plese clarify. thank you, azkir al hatzion
(1/12/2011 5:56:41 PM)
93
what does rabbi ozdaba say ?
does anybody know, what does rabbi avrohom osdoba say regarding all this? please let us know. thank you, azkir al hatzion
(1/12/2011 5:58:15 PM)
94
no connection between psak & elections
while both sides agreed to the zablo bes din & the pask, no one agreed to a corrupted election process
(1/12/2011 6:02:16 PM)
95
Machloikes!! Yay!
Shame!!!!
(1/12/2011 6:21:24 PM)
96
To #73
You state at the end, the Rebbe was agreeable that a Rov can get shimush on the job, so why not in this case?? There should be no problem with someone getting shimush on the job. This is all assuming he has no shimush. You are most obviously a R Bogo supporter and cant take the fact that you lost. Face it you lost, and the psak speaks for itself. Accept it or else you are making a mockery of torah by not listening to the rabbonim
(1/12/2011 6:30:35 PM)
97
torah teaches
the mishnah in rosh hashona 2:9 tells us how the controversy over yom kippur was resolved by rabbi yehoshua submitting to the psak of rabban gamliel on the advice of rabbi dosa.

look it up for yourself and see what you can learn from it! we don't need to agonize over whose opinion is correct when our holy sages have already shown us how to deal with this sittuation.
(1/12/2011 6:48:42 PM)
98
VERRY INTERESTING
How many of you remember the respect R' Berel Levin exhibited towards Rabbi Marlow A”H?

Also, how many of you saw Reb Yoiel turn away, when Rabbi Marlow passed him on the street?

HIPOCRITS……
(1/12/2011 6:54:58 PM)
99
Shame on R' Braun
I voted, and convinced other people, to vote for R' Braun.

Had I even had an inkling of a possibility that this shmendrick hasn't even bothered to get semicha and has the audacity to run for rav in the most important Chabad community I wouldn't have bothered with him at all.

Shame on R' Braun for making matters even worse than they were before this entire election process.

Stay home braun thanks for making matters from bad to worse.

R' Rosenberg, you failed too! You didn't do your due diligence and were paid a fortune, to boot. Go back to Monsey..
(1/12/2011 6:59:12 PM)
100
notice
1.the 3 rabonim are from ch
2.the letter is to the rabonim not to ch
(1/12/2011 7:29:35 PM)
101
#11
agree with 11
(1/12/2011 7:31:07 PM)
102
Too Late! The Community Elected Him Already
Where were you all during the elections? Only NOW you have what to say? Since when did Reb Yoel become a "Rav" capable of challenging the election process of a Shechuna? Shalom
(1/12/2011 7:33:41 PM)
103
Why write such SHTUS????
The letter states:
"if a Rav isn’t particular in not using “Chalav Stam”, would anybody suggest to appoint him to supervise and determine the standards of Kashrus of Chalav Yisrael, for those who are particular to drink only Chalav Yisrael, and that he should decide which milk is good to use and which should not be used?!"

Sorry, WRONG!! WRONG!!! WRONG!!

Of course a mashgiach who uses cholov stam can give a hechsher on cholov yisroel! He has naymonus!! Just as a mashgiach or shoichet who is askenazi can give a hechsher on meat Bais Yossef!!

Is someone who uses cholov stam POSSUL from being a mashgiach on cholov yisroel!? Can a Litvak not be a mashgiach on Chassidishe Shchita?!

I never heard such a TIPSHUS and SHTUS before!

The kop mentchin DISCREDITED your entire letter by including such meshugas.
(1/12/2011 7:45:06 PM)
104
Korach's relentless Machlokes...
The relentless pursuit of this disgusting Machlokes against our newly elected 3d Rav, may Chas Vesholom get them burnt.

This Treo are Playing with fire!

As for the rest of the community, all we can say is "Hibadlu Mikem", as was said to the Korach-Clan Machlokes_Machers, so as not to get "sucked in to the ground" when the end of the Korach-Machlokes-Machers delivers them, "their reward".

Non of us in the community can even contemplate for a second, that this 3 rabbis, together with R' Bogomilsky, had solicited unsuspecting Rabbis, to pull the wool over their eyes, and it was THEM who were directly instrumental, to put Rabbi Marlow and Rabbi Osdoba in Cherem!

Yes you heard right. It's the very same person, pictured with "the longest beard"!

It is the very same "innocent" rabbi who purports himself as "never being involved in any Machlokes", who went all around town together with R' Bogomilsky, to extract a fake Cherem against Rabbi Marlow, against Rabbi Osdoba etc.

Certainly we all know the true colors of this entire clan and we "understand" very well why they never stop their rhetoric against our current newly elected Rav to make a truly united peaceful Beis Din, at last.

Remember that Korach had a very ugly end and no one should envy Korach's destiny.
(1/12/2011 7:49:20 PM)
105
a pashuter yid
Is it true or false?

Is it ture that the leaders and elected representatives of our comunity (the elected rabbonim and vaad hakohol) unanimasly agreed to go to this zabla beit din and follow it's ruling in all the disputed areas, especially the Rabbonus of Crown Heights?

They represent the "entire" community! and therefore the comunity must follow the rulling. period. The comunity got to express their wishes at the ballot boxes (both vad hakahal and rav), and the Zablo certified the results.

This is the end of the story...
(1/12/2011 8:21:15 PM)
106
What about R' Osdoba
He ran on the pretense of being a frum yid and following shulchan aruch. Turns out he refuses to accept a p'sak from a beis din. His election was a mekach tous.
(1/12/2011 8:23:35 PM)
107
Agree with #89
Once more, Chabad is a subject of ridicule for the whole frum world.

Shame on us, shame on the BD.
(1/12/2011 8:38:52 PM)
108
Nemo
To #87:

As a shliach/smicha-bochur in Sydney, I was mishamesh the Sydney Beth Din in its office at the Great Synagogue nearly every week, during its sessions on Thursday mornings, from September 2005 until June 2007. I served as a witness for gittin and was privy to many of the goings-on of the Beth Din. I was not, however, present during the dinei torah as I was required to be present with the sofer during the writing of the get. I was also present when gittin were written and/or delivered in various other venues in Sydney. I tutored geirim for conversion and I sat as a Beth Din member at the mikveh in Bondi Beach numerous times. I also spent innumerable hours away in the home of Rabbi Ulman, whom I had the privilege of studying with and received smicha from.

I have no recollection during the nearly two years I spent as a meshamesh of the Sydney Beth Din of seeing Rabbi Braun at the Beth Din office in the Great Synagogue nor did I ever hear that he was receiving shimmush there. I have never seen him present at a get. On the other hand, I do not know if he ever participated in conversions or dinei torah that occurred out of the office. I do not know if he received shimmush in nidah, as this is something he could have obtained from any number of local rabbis. I did once see him examining a bedika cloth with a rov. Similarly, I do not know if he has shimmush in kashrus or where he might have obtained that knowledge.

I have nothing against Rabbi Braun and I think he is an upstanding, chassidishe individual. I farbrenged with him a few times during my time in Sydney and I even davened in Tzemach Tzedek a few times when I was away from my other assignments at other shuls. I give over my experience with the Sydney Beth Din only because it is relevant for someone who is not a part of the Beth Din to understand that Rabbi Braun played no role in it, at least during my time there.
(1/12/2011 8:44:19 PM)
109
A Major Catastrophe
My Dear fellow Chabad Chassidim sheyichyu,

I don’t begin to understand what all the above comments are for:

All that Reb Yoel, Rabbi Garelitzky and Rabbi Levin are asking are some extremely VALID questions that NEED to be answered and SHOULD be haunting EVERY member of our (THE REBBE’S) Shchuna. Avoiding these issues and not demanding answers is only going to catch up with us later, if what we’ve seen till now hasn’t been enough.

These three (Reb Yoel, Rabbi Garelitzky and Rabbi Levin) are from our absolute finest & most reliable when it comes to THE REBBES INYONIM.

How in the world can you hire such a person with all these issues are upon him? (If Walmart opens in Brooklyn they may consider Braun’s “smicha” if he’s lucky enough.)

Rev Rosenberg DID NOT really address these scary issues, all he is trying to do is sweep it under the carpet because he DOES NOT care for this shchuna and what this shchuna stands for.

Real Chasiddim would tear KRIAH for the way he addresses our people in such a condescending way. FE FE FE!!
Also where are the voices or signatures of the LUBAVITCHER ZABLA RABONIM?

WAKE UP TIERE CHAVAIRIM before its to late!!

“VEN ES TUT VAI SHRAIT MEN”
(1/12/2011 8:51:25 PM)
110
WHY
DOESNT R' BRAUN WITHDRAW WHEN HE IS SO UNWELCOME?
(1/12/2011 9:10:07 PM)
111
Re-election
I voted for Rabbi Braun (who has taught Hilchos Semicha... So I figure he knows the Halachos), and would vote again in a re-election.
I believe the majority still would.
(1/12/2011 9:12:56 PM)
112
truth
I don't care who the rov is, but I do want truth. Let rabbi rosenberg respong and all the other rabbonim of the zabla'a respond to the issues raised. Let' have the truth. If it supports Rabbi Braun then good. If not, elections should be held again.
What really bothers me is the the demeaning way that Rabbi Rosenberg treats the community. We are adults. We are entitled to see all the supporting evidence and a psak signed by all the rabbonim.
:eck! Why doesn't Rabbi Braun simply send a copy of the semich to COL?!
(1/12/2011 9:28:43 PM)
113
i cant believe this
“it is clear from what we heard from the community of Sydney" who did they ask this is preposterous and untrustworthy.

if R' zinner signed something it is signed. no questions asked. you cannot put your name to somehing and say it is meaningless. typical crown heights. go to court and see if that would stand up. only in beis din are we stuck with instances of this damming foolishness
(1/12/2011 9:30:47 PM)
114
what about rabbi levin
why is no one talking about him
(1/12/2011 9:37:58 PM)
115
Daas Baalei Batim Heipech Daas Torah
These self-appointed analysts invalidate themselves.

You attempt to draw the Rebbe into your petty ploitics, but didn't the Rebbe write that one who does not have experience as a Rav cannot question Rabbonim.

Five of the brightest Rabbonim in the world -- four of them Lubavitchers -- have ruled. Their ruling is al pi Torah.

Mashpiim, Maskilim and Librarians are not Rabbonim and, according to the Rebbe their opinion is the opposite of Torah. End of story!
(1/12/2011 10:06:29 PM)
116
Money where your mouth is
Rabbi Gerlitzky wrote a fine pilpul to "treif-up" a psak din. Let's accept it. BUT - let Rabbi Gerlitzky be the Rov in CH! Let's see him FIX instead of just tear down. It's easy to scream "treif!"...
(1/12/2011 10:28:52 PM)
117
estie
yee haw.

braun got elected in.

he should never have been on the slate in the first place.

rosenberg doesn't have enough depth to say - whoops, we need to do this again.

imagine if it was crystal clear that obama is not a us citizen...

by now i guess braun should stay and all will continue to disrespect the tribunal. for good reason.

i say -

learn enought straight from the books not to need to ask. and grow a spine so that you don't need a leader (aygel). but if you must be a mindless sheep, go follow the pied pipers right off the cliff.
(1/12/2011 11:05:50 PM)
118
what does the vaad have to say?
isaac b tamir????
(1/12/2011 11:17:54 PM)
119
Zablah was not the solution
I was hoping that after the Zablah managed to put together the election we would finally have peace and leadership in the neighborhood, but I guess I was wrong. Regardless of what the end of this soap opera will be, there can not be peace nor leadership if the election or the zablah failed to unify the community. The only way of creating unity is by eliminating all of the possible arguments that may arise well before they arise. That is why the zablah was hired but they failed miserably.

I feel that it is not about weather Rav Braun has as good of a smicah as Rav Bogomilsky nor weather the psak din is valid or not. Or if the candidate was valid or not or if the accepting a candidate after the deadline is valid or not.

I feel that none of that or any other issues raised on the Zablah's psak or in this letter from these 3 Lubavitch personalities appeases the community simply because they all failed to sit down before the elections and discuss all this and get a commitment from both parties that they will accept the outcome of the election. And particularly because both the rabonim didn't come out together after the elections to say that we accepted the psak before so we honor the elections results. And as long as they don't come out and tell everyone that the issue is resolved the community will remain split regardless of who gets appointed as a third rav.

In my eyes, a Bais Din that fails to unify a community could not be trusted to pasken Hallacha and that is why regretfully many in the neighborhood direct all their shailos and Dinei Torah away from this Bais din.
(1/12/2011 11:36:10 PM)
120
Question
As a ‘poshuter yid’, once the Beis din with sole jurisdiction and authority on these matters issued their ‘psak din’, it is final – 1000% and Rabbi Braun is the 3rd Rov of Crown Heights

But just for an intellectual exercise, I just went back and took a look at a ‘tzetel’ that was making it’s rounds over the web some time ago - written by Rabbi Eliezer Zirkind to the Rebbe dated 21 Tamuz, 5746, where he reports to the Rebbe that he had fulfilled the ‘shlichus’ of the Rebbe to see the ‘smichas’ of the 3 elected Rabbonim to the Bais Din.

Question: was this the first time the newly elected Rabbonim were requested to present their ‘semicha’ documents to the rabbonim in charge of the elections? Was there a previous time they were required to do so? Because I believe that 21 Tamuz 5746 was well after the campaigning prior to the elections, after the elections of Rabbi Marlow a”h and yblch”t Rabbi Osdobo, and also after the subsequent election of Rabbi Heller.

If that is indeed the case, can we learn from here that the Rebbe wanted to make sure that before they have the ‘Hachtara’ for the Rabbonim and actually seat them as Rabbonim they actually possessed semicha document (there was no doubt about the level of knowledge of these three distinguished Rabbonim, but in order to be actually seated as acting rov, one needs to possess this document), but this was not a concern earlier, during the process of being qualified as a candidate or the actual elections…

If this is not the case, please enlighten me.
(1/12/2011 11:43:29 PM)
121
First you put pressure on tziner to deny giving smicha and now ..the killing
First he's the yetzer hara that convinces to sin, then the Satan that prosecutes against and then the malice kamaves that kills.
Having been the rebbes choizer and a mashie with a vast knowledge of chassidus does not give a person especially not a chased the right to be me hares the rebbes schuna or any. First he went to rabbi tzinner and put pressure on him to revoke and deny the smicha he gave and now is writing this big fancy document to push the point that he was never given smicha. Next step he will make sure there is a killing and pressure will be put on the bias din olamei to give out an ikul.

The great accomplishment? That at best there will be peace among rabbanim. No one caring about our youth, the tznius, the lack of yiras shamayim more kids lost each year, more disillushionment! This is real maase satan! Not allowing a young rav who understands our youth, who will find time for them, and has a backbone and leadership qualities to enter.
And what will this great letter of yours lead to.
, claiming he never gets involved but this is a case of pikuach nefesh and now
(1/12/2011 11:46:53 PM)
122
response to #52
Rabbi Bogomilsky moved on. He continues to be the ROV of CH and is respected by most.. The ones who wanted r' braun got what they deserved more machloikes.

To say the least they made fools of themselves. Someone should ask SB drizin What rabbi Bogomilsky ever did to him to hate him so much and ruin the entire community.

Thats right people, just because someone is rich does not give him the right to spread lies and hate.

Wake up and realize you are all being puppet mastered by SB drizin and friends.

Rabbi Bogomilsky is BH available to all those that need him. You all know the truth.

Which person over 40 in this community will really respect R' Broin? and which person under 40 will respect him. Answer is neither group.

The two rabbonim who cant get along should resign as well..
(1/13/2011 12:08:06 AM)
123
Yeshivish P'shat
The kler is:

Is it a mekach to'us (- but what is being sold or bought here? My Nafka mina? l'mekach u'memkar!);

Or matonah b'to'us (-a pruim'dik matona l'enyonim! Matneh al ma shekosuv b'tora!);

Or michilah b'to'us (-zeit motchel),

But this all assumes it was a to'us or at least a true shoygeg (not a shoygeg korov l'mayzid, kal v'chomer, p'shiya),

And then would this to'us pasel-up the Gavreh - since he wasn't a cheftzah,

Or is he not a cheftzah because he isn't a gavreh?

With this kler you get pshat in the ma'asse of these sfekos and dayos, now it is klor, ad bi'yas go'el tzedek.
(1/13/2011 12:15:08 AM)
124
ein ldavar sof
lol
they want to take this to another zabla?!!?!?
Which rav would be crazy enough to judge a case of a rov being judged for mishandling a case and accused by the people who lost lol
(1/13/2011 12:16:43 AM)
125
CLARITY OF MIND!
its quite simple there was a psak din tora thats it . what a chutspa to go and write letters like this.u got to know your limits.the above signed 3 r not rabbonim and whats their business opening their mouths .enouph allready !go back to your books and krich nisht voo du balangst nisht ! shoimu shomayim ! luz up ! vhashem yerachem ! omisaymim btov amen.
(1/13/2011 12:35:59 AM)
126
R' Tziner gave R' Braun smicha
Who was it that visited Rabbi Tziner and convinced him that Rabbi Brauns election was sakanas nefoshos and therefore must be nullified or denied? The same person that has now written this letter trying to discredit him and the psak din.
And who is it that has gone to misnadishe Rabbanim to fight our Badatz years ago when they gave the lubavitcher Yeshiva permission to take MERKOS to court.

How old does one have to be to stop fooling himself and wearing the cloak of chassidisheit and hiskashrus!
(1/13/2011 12:36:54 AM)
127
PINCHOS
ive read all 124 comments! and not one can answer the letter that was written! there is nothing wrong with asking questions! instead of bashing the letter answer it. if not then dont write anything.
(1/13/2011 12:47:37 AM)
128
glad i aint part of this..levi
This 51-49 rule never works out when voting for a rav of a shul, especially an entire coMmunity like ch.

Vote again, candidate must have 80pct of the votes. Otherwise, this will just go round in circles for ever.

Additionaly, haven't we all joked/said at one time or another that 770/ot are 'smicha factories'?

Lastly, r' gerlitzky is liked by pretty much everyone (b day parties etc by students) and reb yoel - can anyone say a bad word about the two of them?

Let me end by saying that even though obama got voted in, the gop always hated him and he'll eventually be ousted at next election...

This is a lifetime deal,,,,if this came up now and is a reason for r' braun to remain in australia then let it be, move on, vote again and vote in someone that The majority at
t least going in respects and can appreciate.
(1/13/2011 12:50:34 AM)
129
choose what you want!
All those welcoming our "new Rov", you can be under his rulings if you want. Place your mikvah, kidushin and kashrus shailos under the ruling of a man without smichah. As for me I'd prefer to go according to a rov with smichah. Good luck fools!
(1/13/2011 12:59:44 AM)
130
Question #2 (120)
is there any evidence to suggest that when the Rebbe tasked Rabbi Zirkind to personally see the newly elected Rabbonim's semicha, the Rebbe inssisted that the Semicha be dated prior to the date that they offered up their candidacy to Run as a Chaver Beis Din, or did the Rebbe want to make sure that they have the semicha document before they actually take office.

It's very clear that one can have an enormous knowledge of Halacha and lack an official Semicha, and if he chooses to get this document, he wouldn't have to study anything new in order to be tested - as he is intimately knowledgeable in the fine intricacies of the relevant Halocos and much much more. He would immediately get tested and ordained - same day!

So, is there any indication that had they not be able to produce the document dated "before" the elections, that the elections would have to be re-done?
(1/13/2011 1:01:02 AM)
131
#118 - what does the vaad have to say?
I believe that Zaki is a Frum yid, and will fully follow the Halacha = Psak Din- no questions asked
(1/13/2011 1:06:47 AM)
132
Re: #112
Rabbi Rosenberg and the entire Beis Din is NOT required (and I'm not sure it would be wise) to respond to this or any other letters. these people will not accept any answer - the only acceptable solution for them is to remove Rabbi Braun (not because they know him or have anything personally against him, only because he stands in the way of their POLITICAL agenda! and as long as the winner is not one of their political persuasion, they will fight tooth and nail...)
(1/13/2011 1:12:10 AM)
133
Excuse me
Siman chof-hey (25) in Choshen Mishpat is dedicated to "A Dayan who Makes a Mistake in his Psak"

Such am ha'aratsess, and they speak with such sweeping and indignant self righteous accusasions.

(Like Rabbi Tzinner and R.Yoel are liars and R' Braun-R' Rosenberg are tzaddikim. Gevald - are you so meshuchad to your politics? Can't you just level the playing field and agree to investigate who is the liar? That is bizayon enough.)

Ir hot aleh a shaychuss tzum lernen vi a tzig tzu shalleshudess...
(1/13/2011 1:12:17 AM)
134
99 - truth
Do you expect us to believe you voted for Rabbi Broun?
(1/13/2011 1:22:26 AM)
135
Sending the wrong message
To Rabbi Kahn, Rabbi Levin and Rabbi Gerelitzky,

I was deeply saddened by your letter and challenge to Rabbi Rosenberg. You are three of the most respected rabbis in Crown Heights. Most of the C.H. community have learned from any one of you and we as a community still have deep respect for you.

How sad that your current actions have taught the community and our young such a sorry lesson. You have taught our community that a psak din of a rav is something which you get to pick apart, belittle and challenge when you don't like it. And that is exactly why we as a community are where we are right now.

Our community cannot be blamed for the disrespect of the rabbinic process. Today you have cast doubt on a psak of a rav who the community agreed will decide a difficult issue. with your intelligent insight, but faulty wisdom you chose to challenge rabbi Rosenberg. You have attempted to right a perceived wrong but in reality you have acheived something much more ominous.

It won't be long and the tables will be turned on you, and you will only have yourselves to blame. For you have shown our community that you can challenge any rav with a good argument. You have set the example to your students that a rav's psak is to be challenged.

Please remember that your arguments may be sound and reasonable, but after all is said and done, the lay person reading your letter just sees another attack on the institution of the rabbinate and he takes permission to do the same.

I ask you, please recognize the dangerous example you are unfortunately setting for our community. Yes I know you only mean it 'for the sake of heaven' but as the alter rebbe says, those are the worst arguments of all and need to be avoided at all cost.

I beg you to set an example and instead of trying to figure out which rabbi is right or wrong, teach our youth and community how to respect authority.

Until then we are lost, very lost. Not only have you tarnished the current process but you have also defiled youselves.

Heed the words of Hillel who said "Because you drowned others, they drowned you; and ultimately those who drowned you will themselves be drowned"

With deep sadness and regret

An older and respectful talmid


As the great hillel said "
(1/13/2011 1:42:45 AM)
136
is it a Ksuba, Hamlotzo or a Mock wedding???
i want to see the Ksuba of these rabbis!

Mema Nafshach,
the witness that singed it might have thought it was a Hamlotzo that he has 200 Zuz and thats it, not that they were REALLY getting married!
V'ha Raye! someone else wrote the Nusach!
and it doesn't it have a gold border and its on plain paper!

OR you could say that he thought it was a mock wedding!
(1/13/2011 1:56:29 AM)
137
what the rebbe says
The prolonged controversy about the validity of the Crown Heights Rabbinate elections has lost a lot of its momentum. But many people are still being attracted to the wellsprings of falsehoods and rumors, drinking from the venomous waters served by those who don't wish the best for their community, or at least not at the expense of their own power or interests.

For the genuinely G-d fearing voter, the response to the various claims set out by the Zablo Beis Din headed by Rabbi Avrohom Rosenberg was ample.

Perhaps the issues raised were well-intentioned problems with the elected rabbi, or maybe not. Assuming that they were, the unambiguous rebuttal from the Beis Din should have settled any doubt.

And it did, for those who really care about the integrity of the elections and of the new Rov.

But it did not, and nothing will, relax the card-carrying opposition members so long as they do not claim their victory.

*****

Like most pressing issues that face us today, this one too has precedents, and the Rebbe directed how things should operate.

In a public talk delivered in 1986, the Rebbe offered sharp criticism for those who sought to undermine the public's vote.

"There are those who have decided, for whatever reason, that they are the caretakers of this neighborhood, and that they need to rule and order the general public," the Rebbe said.

The Rebbe went on to give an example of those who capitalized on the need to find a community Rov. These self-serving leaders think that they should decide on the rabbi.

"It is unheard of, that laymen will decide on the election of a rabbi. Even laymen who have rabbinic ordination."

The Rebbe made reference to the despicable 'mass-bribery' that certain individuals (backed by self-serving leaders) made by saying that if their candidate was elected to the rabbinate they would support certain institutions, otherwise they would not.

Calling it "bribery, whose form there is none more severe", the Rebbe said that the monies collected through these means are not holy and "may not be used for holy things!"

*****

These same people, says the Rebbe, approached him asking why he hadn't thought of appointing a Rov.

"What they meant was, they wanted me to charge them with the responsibility of appointing the Rov.

"When the community went a full year without a rabbi, these same people seemed to worry very little. Suddenly, upon hearing talk of an election, and a mending of the situation, they seek to hinder any developments."

Proving their lack of integrity, the Rebbe asked why none of those who approached him about the situation took part in the voting.

"The answer is obvious. It wasn't serving their interests, so they boycotted."

The Rebbe told the public gathering that when he realized the impending disaster, he abandoned everything he was doing to ensure the successful election and inauguration of a new rabbi.

Even after the election of the third Rov, they tried to postpone the inauguration a few months, the Rebbe testified. "They claimed this was the 'will of the people'. All of a sudden there is a community, and one that has a will!"

The Rebbe analyzed their intentions in postponing:

"They hoped that Moshiach would come [although, on second thought, that wouldn't serve their purpose since when Moshiach comes all the 'k'nakers and machers will no longer be'].

"The foremost reason was to use those four months of postponement to altogether halt the inauguration. Their main tool would be through arousing friction and controversy!"

The Rebbe then noted their hypocrisy when they talked of Ahavas Yisrael and Unity, holding meetings and gatherings on the matter, but failing to actually implement those ideals in its simplest form.

*****

Speaking on this topic again in 1987, the Rebbe explained the major differences in the methodology of electing a rabbi in all communities to that of Crown Heights.

"In most communities certain leaders and laymen elect the rabbi, and after seeing how he leads the congregation, the same board will decide if his leadership is in sync with the will of the people.

"This is not so with communities where the public chooses their rabbi, like in Crown Heights. Everyone was called to vote, and the vast majority responded to the calling, coming to a very holy place, a synagogue, and that of the Rebbe, to vote. Hence, the elected rabbi's stature in this community is incomparably stronger than those of all other communities."

The rabbi's validity must go unquestioned, says the Rebbe, even if this is to the disapproval of certain individuals. "The majority has ruled! If they don't like it, it's too bad. They were not consulted before the Ten Commandments were given, the 613 commandments and the whole Torah!"

*****

Concerning the jurisdiction of the Crown Heights Rabbinate, the Rebbe was crystal clear, saying that all matters pertaining to local institutions were under their authority.

The Rebbe elaborated, negating rumors (many in his name) that other rabbis could deal with community-wide issues.

"I would never allow something which is strictly prohibited according to the Shulchan Aruch!"

According to the Rebbe, whose own words in a Sicha can hardly be refuted by any cute anecdote told by anyone, the only ones who hold any power vis-a-vis the Chabad Mosdos in Crown Heights are the members of the Crown Heights Rabbinate.
(1/13/2011 1:58:15 AM)
138
You lost. Get over it.
People, your candidate lost. Get over it. Stop acting like little kids...Don't you have something better to do with your lives?
(1/13/2011 2:45:27 AM)
139
#87 is an outright liar
If you actually live in Sydney then you know d--- well that Braun has never had any involvement in the Beis Din. None whatsoever.

And speaking of liars, #83 says he's seen the framed smicha; if so, perhaps he can tell us who issued it. And how long ago he saw it, since it seems that everyone agrees he had no smicha until a year or two ago.

Once you tell such blatant lies, why should we believe anything you have to say?
(1/13/2011 3:03:23 AM)
140
Amazing
I once heard a vort from a older Chosid. He said that there are people that are book smart and street stupid. In other words ,there is lacking an ability to think between the lines.The Rebbe mentioned many times that one can demand from a Rav where did you take this law from? Why is it some people do not understand the concept if a din torah is not built on proper foundations it is no longer valid. Based on some of the responses above, they reason if Rav Rosenberg says that one can drive one's car to shul on Shabbos, then the Torah says one must follow. So one can understand in this inyan. I thank the 3 rabonnim for getting involved and writing Rav Rosenberg in saving this community and doing what the Rebbe wants. Keep on carry the Torch and lighting the way .
(1/13/2011 5:22:27 AM)
141
îâéá áòáøéú...
øöéúé ìäâéá ëàï ãáø àçã ôùåè: ëì æä ðëåï äéä ìôðé äáçéøåú.. ëòú îùðñúééîå äáçéøåú îä äèòí áëì æä? ìäâáéø äîçìå÷ú? äøé ëì äúåîëéí áøá áøåéåï úîëå áå îöã àéùéåúå åáæä ðâîø äñéôåø...
(1/13/2011 6:24:47 AM)
142
Rav Kahn
Remember when Rav Kahn and R' Bogomilsky went to OUTSIDE Rabonim to put Rav Marlow and (YBLCH"T) Rav Osdoba in a Cherem?
(1/13/2011 7:43:40 AM)
143
problmes
pepole r juest looking to make problems r. brown is rav
(1/13/2011 8:28:11 AM)
144
just a point...
SYDNEY IS NOT A 'SMALL COMMUNITY'.
I agree with this letter, send rabbi braun back to us!!!!
(1/13/2011 9:50:41 AM)
145
Milhouse
I thought it over and it's clear to me now that Rabbi Osdoba is under the Jurisdiction of the Zabla Beis Din and Rabbi Osdoba must accept this Psak Din that the newly elected Rav is the 3d Rav.

According to the Original Psak Din by the Zabla, it states that after the election all 3 Rabbonim must sit together and deliberate together and Pasken together and sign together...

The Psak Din of the Zabla stipulates that if any one of them refuses, he will be ousted and replaced.

It's now Rabbi Osdoba's choice to either shape up and follow the Psak Din like every frum yid, or else the Zabla will have him ousted and the next election will have him replaced.
(1/13/2011 10:21:50 AM)
146
Hei teiveis
Why was Rabbi A. Shemtov initially unsure on who's side Berel Levin was?....
(1/13/2011 10:38:56 AM)
147
* A L L * Sore Loosers, always deffy their Din Torah
Every Din Torah has winners and losers and the sore looser will always bad mouth Beis Din of the Din Torah and claim that the Psak which made them loose, is not proper "al pi torah" (their version of Daas Baalay Batim which the Rebbe says is actually HEPECH Daas Torah!)
(1/13/2011 1:03:41 PM)
148
Our Badatz as a Dugma Chaya
If any one of the 2 Rabbonim who had agreed to this Zabla Beis Din - If any one of them refuses to follow this Psak Din, he has made a mockery of all future Din Torah's in C.H.

If a Rov refuses to follow the Psak Din of a Din Torah where he, himslef, is under their jurisdiction, then certainly he can be sure that no one will ever listen to his own Psak Din either in the future, sitting his own Rav as a living example of refusing to follow a Psak Din.
(1/13/2011 1:06:37 PM)
149
What an Education
I am learning so much here (at age 68!)

Reb Yoel Kahan actually went and convinced Rabbi Tzinner to repeal the smicha?

I am amazed that he did this.

I am more amazed that someone would believe he did this.

Stunned that someone would believe that by writing this he would score points for his pet cause.
(1/13/2011 1:16:28 PM)
150
Concerned
All three of the "authors" are very talented but they they are helping to perpetuate dis-honesty, corruption and disdain for the tzibur

This will only serve to make two kehillas with no hope of any erlichkeit. It will also help to totally ruin the youth.

It appears Rabbi Kahan has extra time on his hands. What is with Sefer Haerchim that the Rebbe Zatzal so dearly wanted?

Why not spend more time speaking to Rabbonim and Roshei Yeshiva like he did in Israel?

There are so many CONSTRUCTIVE things he can do!

Rabbi Levin print more seforim!

Rabbo Gorelitzky say more shiurim! Print more chidushim!
(1/13/2011 2:00:37 PM)
151
To #103
Are you saying, for example, that someone who doesn't keep yoshon and eats c"v chodosh in chutz la'aretz, that he CAN be believed to be mashgiach and give hechsher that product is yoshon?

Are you saying that someone who eats c"v non-Lubavitch shchita CAN be mashgiach and give a hechsher on Lubavitch Shchita??

YOU would trust such a person??!!!

That's like - if someone wears c"v shatnez and he is working in a shatnez labratory and giving hechsher on clothes being shatnez free!!

(1/13/2011 2:40:19 PM)
152
c"v chodosh in chutz la'aretz
why chas v'shalom?

the Alter Rebbe says: òëùéå àéï äòåìí ðæäøéï ëìì áàéñåø çãù

See Sichas achron Shel Pesach 5740
(1/13/2011 8:15:04 PM)
153
to 149
Why not check out Tziners letter written to Reb Yoel on the 23rd of kislev and the letter written on gimme Parshas chaya Sara from Rabbi G tziner to Reb Yoel and the accompanying visiting delegates. They were printed on Crown Heights info. I guess you are a naive 68 year old.
As to my pet cause- my heart bleeds over the kids we lose each year watching our bickering leadership and the victory the Satan is feeling watching mashpiim doing the machlaikus work for him.
(1/13/2011 8:40:54 PM)
154
i love #136
LOL!
(1/13/2011 11:11:12 PM)
155
To #20
To paraphrase your own comment "the Torah advises"... not to use such shameful language against Torah sages and elderly people and in a public forum. Regardless of your opinion on their actions or thoughts.
(1/13/2011 11:33:33 PM)
156
#33
From the last two sentences of your comment it is clear that you do not know who they are- although you are quite sure that you know their motivations. It seems that you are assuming that they are like you would be. Only ignorance could make someone write such words against such great talmidei chachamim without realizing that one is playing with fire.
(1/13/2011 11:44:47 PM)
157
To #150
Your bitter sarcasm and patronizing words shows you for what you are, that is; not on the level of the people you are critisizing. People, who, as pillars of the community, relied upon by many for their knowledge and wisdom, do have the responsibility to make their opinions known on matters they feel are of concern to the jewish community. The torah does not claim to be politically correct, it claims to be-true. So whether everyone agrees with their opinions or not, they have the right and the obligation to state it.
(1/13/2011 11:53:51 PM)
158
publicity
The above letter has raised many valid points to ponder on. Such a letter addressed to the bes din should have only reached them, Perhaps in such a fashion it would be taken seriously by the people involved. Publicity of such a letter is self destructive.
(1/14/2011 2:51:41 AM)
159
to # 5
Don't you realize that your question is a good question if you're talking about a normal situation. However, I don't think that applies to the town of Chelm which we have all become residents of, unfortunately.
(1/15/2011 9:33:14 PM)
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