Jul 1, 2010
Please Don't Fool Yourself

Shidduchim SOS: I may not be a good writer at all, but as a single girl, I would like to shed light on the supposed "shidduch crisis." If my message will get through to at least one person - it's all worth it.

As a single girl, I would like to bring up a subject of which is wide spread in our community and world in general. I would like to shed light on the supposed “shidduch crisis.”

Firstly, I do not believe there is a real crisis. I’ve read so many articles in which people easily blame one party or another. Truthfully, they all have a point, but seem to be missing the main point. The real problem is not the shadchanim, not really the parents, and not really the system.

The problem is the amount of single people and the changing of generation without the changing of ‘the system.’ This is not a crisis. We can change the amount of single people over 23. Whats happening in the Gulf is a crisis, it's a disaster and nobody seems to be able to stop it. This ‘crisis’ is curable and solvable.

I will address a couple different ‘issues’ which I believe can be solved, and will give you my take on the matter.

“Too many girls and not enough boys.”
This technically does stand true if you were to take numbers and ages into consideration. Putting that aside, there is somebody out there for everyone. Not every boy thats 22 or 23 has to marry a girl thats younger than themselves, and the other way around.

People have to realize the dynamic of our generation and the difference from the previous generations. People have to stop focusing on the details and start looking for the right person for them, not the right person for their standards or desires. Standards, desires, rules of attraction can all change. But hopefully the person you are striving to be and the house you would like to build shouldn’t change and you should try to find the right person based on that. All the other details, how short, long, fat, skinny, what type of family etc. will fall into place after. First look for the right person, then look for the details. When you’re shopping, you first find the item you want and then look for the right color. Once the deciding factors are there, you have to meet the person first before you decide he/she is too short, long, fat, or skinny etc. If its the right person these things won’t matter. When all is said and done, what will keep a marriage together is not neccesarily the love and attraction. That comes and goes. It is what you share together, your family and house that you’ve built together, what you’ve put in, and of course the middle man, Hashem.

Our generation is very different to the previous generations. For instance, many years ago, the children were at their parents finger tips. Parents raised their children in a certain way, and thats how the children turned out. So by the age of eighteen, when the parents went out looking for a suitable match, they found the ‘right one’ within the year. The community was closer-knit and like I said, the children were at their parents finger tips, it worked, and people were happy. Today we are still using the same method but not taking into consideration the changes that have gone through the youth of this day and age.

A NEW WORLD

Our world became so much more open and complex. Children do what they want, see what they want, and act how they want. Everything is out there. Free choice has never been so easy and accessible.

By the age of eighteen children are already out of the house and pretty much doing their own thing. We hope and pray that they make the right choices, but other than that it is out of our hands. Some people get lucky and find the right person as soon as they are ready, and for many it doesn’t turn out that way. The older one gets, the more set in their ways and opinions they become. Once a person is 22 or older they start becoming a person on their own. As much as parents try to help and participate and shadchanim throw names out, there seems to be little luck.

I’ve discussed this ussue with many people, and they agreed. Many were very eager to say, so then we should have ‘mingling sessions.’ I for one, do not believe in that, simply because, the system we have set up now, is for a reason, and the Rebbe supported it and wanted it that way. I am not saying that the system of matchmakers and getting set-up is a whole bunch of garbage. I just think it has to be looked at from a different angle.

I do not think mingling is a solution. It’s not in compliance with our values and standards. It may work for some, but meeting somebody of the opposite gender face to face in a casual way doesn’t solve the problem.

DO YOU KNOW WHAT'S BEST?

The problem is that there’s too many middle people like parents and shadchanim, meanwhile, the person that needs the shidduch is the ‘single 23 year old.’

Keeping the idea of ‘the older you get the more of your own person you become’ in mind, shadchanim and parents just seem to get in the way. Why can’t they even get one normal person to even look into me? If I know and feel what will work for me best, shouldn’t I be the one looking? I do not think that the shadchanim are doing an adequate job, logically so, what more do you expect? There are so many people the Shadchanim are looking for and they don’t even know most of them. How can you demand and expect them to find you the right person. That could take decades.

Another point I’ve come across through the years is, so many people say, ‘I never thought I would marry a guy like my husband, I got everything I wanted and more, She wasn’t what I was looking for but she’s the right person for me, etc...’ What I’ve come to realize is that, we don’t really know what we want, or what will make us happy. Hashem is the only one that knows what is best for us. What we want has nothing to do with whom we are going to marry. If you are a G-d fearing person, it's pretty simple because that's what it boils down to. Hashem directs the steps of man. I am not implying to just sit and do nothing then and to just go out with anybody because ‘you never know.’

'PRETTY GIRL'

People also have very specific qualifications. Some say they will only be able to go out with a girl that is pretty and skinny. Many people shun that. I have no interest in putting up a fight about that. All I can say is that it is completely brainless, and narrow minded. If your looking for a barbie doll, go to Vegas. Be true to yourself and be a man. Of course you want a pretty girl. Keep in mind that pretty doesn’t neccesarily mean a size two.

At first glance, a thin girl with a nice amount of make-up looks pretty, and maybe so. However, there is so much more to a pretty person than their size or amount of make-up. That is something you can only see when you meet a person face to face and spend time with them. Someone that really knows true beauty won’t limit it to a size or color. Go meet the person and if their size bothers you, you may be vain, or it may be G-d’s way of saying, ‘she’s not for you.’

Don’t fool yourself and say that a person’s looks that you see at first glance or hear about through a third person is your deciding factor We all have things that bother us or irk us, but its impossible to make that judgement until you meet a person. If you are going to say that big beards bother you, or you can’t marry a fat girl. Ok. But don’t say your looking for a husband or wife, you are looking for a compnaian thats nice to look at. If you would like to get married for the right reasons, which are to build a jewish home, then stay truthful to yourself and then everything will fall into place. You want to get married to build a home, what kind of home do you want to build? What are your most important values? What type of wife or husband will you be?

Those are the things to take into consideration. All the physical aspects to a person that you’re saying will or won’t work for you, how do you know? You know what looks and what personality is best for you? Do you believe in yourself more than you believe in G-d? First look for the right person to build a home with. If you can’t stand the way they look, or how loud or quiet they are, then they are obviously not for you. But those are not things you can not rule out before you meet a person. There are so many different facades to a person, you can’t possible decide if a person is right for you based on the physical aspects of them that you’ve heard about. Go out with the person and if it really bothers you that much, than it is obviously not for you.

Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. Beauty is not in the size of a person or in the opinion of your mothers friend who knows the person. Beauty is something that each person sees for themselves, and the only way to really decide is by going out and meeting them. I understand you may want a pretty girl, please wait to go out to decide that. Don’t diminish yourself to a machine that craves barbies. I wouldn’t want to go out with someone like that anyways. Besides, its funny to see how people’s body changes after they have a kid, and hopefully, if one has a healthy marriage that is based on more than just looks, the size of a person won’t make a difference.

If that is your main focus, I can’t see a marriage lasting like that. With G-d’s help, your wife will have kids and won’t look the same as she did when you first met her, but will she be a good mother? a good wife? a functional, healthy human being?

Those important aspects in a person have nothing to do with a person's looks.

WHAT REALLY MAKES YOU HAPPY

My main message is to the young adults out there that are still looking for the right person. Keep in mind to find out who the person is and what they want in life, and if you share the same or similar values, thats what really matters. A person can chose who they want to be, and their family doesn’t necessarily chose that for them. Stay open minded and true to your beliefs and values.

One of the reasons why people are picky about looks and physicality is because ultimately they want to be happy and they think that, that will make them happy.

What they are not realizing is that, what will make you happy is the person that you can build a happy life and home together with. It doesn’t hurt to go out with somebody, if you can’t find the beauty in them then move on. The best judge is yourself not your mother or Shadchan. I’m sorry but the mothers nowadays that are looking for a husband for themselves, are forgetting that the person they are looking into will never go for them.

I may not be a good writer at all, but I hope that my message has gotten through to at least one person, and its all worth it.

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Opinions and Comments
1
Time for major re-evaluation on how we raise our kids
The author states, that kids used to be ' at their parents fingertips' and that this is no longer the case, so they cannot be involved in the same way as previous generations, because basically they dont 'get' their kids, and their kids dont 'get' them.

One of the reasons that kids 'were at their parents fingertips' is because mothers were allowed to stay home and take care of their families.

Today, mothers are forced to work full time because of financial or social pressures. This is destroying our families, this is hurting our shidduchim, this is undermining the chinuch.

Studies show that children who stay home until age 6 are much less likely to reject their parents philosophies and lifestyles when they hit their teens.

Time to recognize the source of all ills in the community including tznius etc. Parents are way too busy when their kids are growing up. It is time to reinvest in our children so that they grow up identifying with our values.

It is not the end all, be all solution, but would go along way to improving inter-generational relationships and the transmission of values and belief systems, and ultimately affect the shidduchim as well.
(7/1/2010 4:15:10 PM)
2
what are "u" looking for in a husband?
you clearly seem to "not" know what you are looking for!?
best of luck.
ps i enjoyed the article.
(7/1/2010 4:35:17 PM)
3
To #2
The point was not for the author to tell the whole world what she is looking for in a husband!
That's none of our business.
She's talking about attitudes, and several other aspects of the shidduch process.
PS -- I'm not the author; I don't even know who the author is!
(7/1/2010 4:51:17 PM)
4
As an older BT, I had to do more myself
There are pros and cons to having the parents involved.

As an older BT, I had to be both the prospective kallah and the parents, during the shidduch process.

I did things that perhaps the shadchan should have done, like contacting the references myself, and asking them the hard questions, and reading between the lines when I heard the references' answers to those questions.

Also, I myself was the one in touch with the shadchanim, as opposed to having parents being in touch with the shadchanim. So the shadchanim got to know ME, not my parents.

In this sense, I feel the writer is right on -- the match is between the girl and the boy, not the parents, even though the families are so, so important.

In my case, the shadchanim knew very little about my family and that of my prospective chossons, other than things like, are they married many years, divorced, widowed, yidden or gerim, etc., and their attitude about their adult child having "gone frum". That's about all.

I like the shadchan and shidduch system, compared to the secular system. BUT, there is a built-in conflict of interest in this system: Shadchanim of course want to see a successful marriage come out of their work, but there is a tendency to (sometimes?) say, "She likes to do XYZ," "He likes to do XYZ," and their ages are compatible, so let's make a match.

"XYZ," as in likes and dislikes, are something of significance, but they're not really something to base a marriage upon; that kind of thing is more important in deciding upon a business partner, or perhaps an employee-employer relationship, or even a same-sex friendship.

PS -- I am married several years now, having met my spouse via a shadchan who worked with BTs, B"H.
(7/1/2010 5:05:06 PM)
5
Very well written
Right on
(7/1/2010 5:16:44 PM)
6
Blown away
What can I say.... You did an unbelievable job at saying it "as it is" and all that within the boundaries of our standards. Kol Hakavod and may your article inspire people at all levels of involvement to rethink their views.
(7/1/2010 5:32:56 PM)
7
#1 makes a good point
(7/1/2010 5:43:19 PM)
8
Your number
"All I can say is that it is completely brainless, and narrow minded. If your looking for a barbie doll, go to Vegas"
thats a funny joke, can i get your number .....
-25 year old bochur
(7/1/2010 5:45:25 PM)
9
Beautiful article
and an even more beautiful person
(7/1/2010 5:47:59 PM)
10
Thank you
Well written and well thought out. I agree closing the age gap would be a major step in the right direction. I also agree that people get bogged down with the outer rings (family, money etc..) and sometimes don't even reach the centre (the boy himself)! N. England
(7/1/2010 5:54:14 PM)
11
well said
loved your article
(7/1/2010 6:00:35 PM)
12
shmarya
why is it always the single people who are the chochomim?
(7/1/2010 6:01:44 PM)
13
MOSES B
Nice article. I enjoyed.
(7/1/2010 6:02:39 PM)
14
to the older BT
Please be sensitive to Geyrim and don't put yidden and geyrim in two different categories
(7/1/2010 6:05:25 PM)
15
Basics
Mostly everything written in this article are basic and fundamental princples which we, in the "NEW" generation struggle with. If one keeps focused and sticks to the basics, and with Gds help, everything seems to work out.
(7/1/2010 6:25:37 PM)
16
to #1
so u r suggesting that mothers should ONLY be housewives; children skip school until about the age of a first grader and that will help the cause!?
I think what u r suggesting is something more, albrit u may not realize it. It seems you are handcuffing the woman's right to choose what she would like to do with herself i.e. in ur 'utopia' if the woman of the home feels bored at being strictly a housewife, what other options does she now have? As well, studies have shown that although homeschooling is an effective manner of which to bring up children, it has negative effects on those individuals e.g. lack of social skills, as well as a lack of understanding of values and ways of life outside their own home!
(7/1/2010 6:42:08 PM)
17
Zevi S
Moshiach now
(7/1/2010 6:52:47 PM)
18
Invest in Shiduchim - Solve Long Term Sholom Bais and Chinuch Problems
B"H I am a big follower of Rav Mordechai Rotenshtein from Eretz Yisroel, who is putting a lot of effort into teaching couples how to live with each other and raise their kids, by getting to know themselves better and reaching their own individual maturity.

You think shiduchim are a problem? The Sholom Bais situation for couples from almost immediately after the chasuna through the divorce (and every dark moment in between) truly is a crisis.

Ask any mechanech in our schunah - they will tell you how obvious it is in the kids what's going on at home. I work with a lot of kids in our neighborhood, it's scary how transparent things are...

The problem is that most times two "kids" who are 22-23 get married, neither one having reached their own emotional maturity level, and within a year they are responsible for raising a kids. By the time the kid is 3 they are beyond confused about life, shlichus (most are not operating a Chabad House but working the counter in a store on Kingston Ave), Rebbe, Moshiach, Money, Money, Peer Pressure, and how everything looks rosey in the house next door. Oh yeah, finding a place to live in CH is stressful too.

I would like to see a "coaching" program with real chassidishe moshpiim,even young people, from the new generation. Rav Mordechai is amazing, and he makes it so easy to take a terrible Sholom Bais situation and turn it into a beautiful, warm, and happy incubator for Chassidishe Jewish children.

My point again is we need to invest in young people during shiduchim in teaching them how to mature emotionally and get to know themselves better. This will prepare them to live with a partner effectively.
(7/1/2010 6:53:15 PM)
19
looks
basically the only thing that can be confirmed 100 is looks, everything else can be sold!
(7/1/2010 6:53:18 PM)
20
Dear Writer, keep writing
If everyone went back and reread the rebbes letters on shidduchim and realigned themselves. The Rebbe never mentioned dress size, height, deep pockets, family background. Yiras shamayim could come in any size or shape.
(7/1/2010 6:59:04 PM)
21
please shadchanim!
please, any shadchan can give me ur email please im looking for one chassidishe and good bocher... please writte me. my email is chanieh@hotmail.com
thnks very much
(7/1/2010 7:14:33 PM)
22
Number
I am chasidish bocher who loves cholent. Would you like to go out?
(7/1/2010 7:24:32 PM)
23
To number 22
LOL, ure funny!!
i hate cholent, so sorry!
(7/1/2010 7:36:51 PM)
24
To No. 16
Your response is part of the problem.

'Only Housewives'? Only?'Housewives'?
No, not housewives. Homemakers.

We're not talking about cleaning toilets, we are talking about HomeMAKING. Home, as in Mikdosh Me -at.

Somehow, this seminal role has been cheapened and relegated to the dustbin.

And we are paying the price.

All you need is to look at today's generation: the disenfranchised kids, the at-risks teens, the shidduchim crisis, the tznius problems... All this is because kids just simply dont 'get' their parents. They don’t relate. And why should they? Their parents didn’t relate to them, they weren’t there for THEM, when they really needed them.

We need to appreciate the mother who dedicates her time and efforts to her children first; no, this is no utopia, it is difficult and thankless work. This does mean that moms can't work for pay – the financial realities are, unfortunately, that many women simply have no choice.

Moms need to have the time and patience to make their family their priority. Those who do, will have kids who are more likely to connect to the mom and her values, and upon reaching the teenage years and adulthood is more likely to adopt those values as her own.

I do not advocate home schooling; the study I referred to was about early childhood primary attachments. It is important that those attachments are not disrupted during the early years, and that it is continually nurtured throughout the growing years. There are no guarantees, but this is an important factor, according to early childhood experts.

No one is handcuffing a woman's right to choose; she should choose alright. But before she does, she should be aware of the price that she will pay for her choices. Not right away, but 15, 20 years down the road when it is simply too late to do anything about it.

Most women work because they their family is financially dependent on that support; not because they want to. The financial stress that is being placed on the modern family is incredible and untenable and that is costing us as families and as communities. Just look around.

It is high time to reprioritize. We should, at the bare minimum, assign similar value and prestige to the woman who makes the choice to invest, not in her career, but in the next generation.
(7/1/2010 7:46:44 PM)
25
the pretty war
why are people so against boys wanting someone pretty? When they say pretty they dont mean knockout gorgeous, they mean...pretty. Yes someone with nice, pleasant to look at features. Why is that such a crazy requirement? Yeah yeah you can say beauty doesnt last forever, blah blah, but boys arent looking for someone who will be pretty forever. They are looking for someone they can be attracted to NOW, and as they get older, well he knows they will both get old together and by then he assumes he will love his wife so much he wont care or even see the wrinkles.
Ya know, beauty DOES fade, but... ugly is forever.
(7/1/2010 7:49:15 PM)
26
"Not every boy thats 22 or 23 has to marry a girl thats younger than themselves, and the other way around".
THIS IS A GOOD POINT YOU MAKE. PEOPLE SHOULD NOT BE SO FOCUSED ON " IS SHE 2 YEARS YOUNGER OR 6 MONTHS OLDER?"

ALTHOUGH IT IS NOT WISE TO GENERALIZE, HOWEVER, A SIGNIFICANT AMOUNT OF GIRLS WHEN GETTING OLDER, BECOME INCREASINGLY MORE INFLEXIBLE IN THEIR PURSUIT OF A SPOUSE.

I AM SPEAKING SPECIFICALLY ABOUT WHEN ACTUALLY DATING. (PERHAPS THIS IS NOT TRUE WHEN RESEARCHING A DATE).

EVERYONE KNOWS "MEN ARE SIMPLE", AND THEY DON'T HAVE A LONG "CHECKLIST" CRITERIA THAT A GIRL MUST LIVE UP TO. ONCE A GUY FEELS COMFORTABLE ABOUT THE GIRL HE IS DATING, AND ENJOYS HER PERSONALITY, THE REST OF THE DATING IS JUST SPEAKING ABOUT DETAILS AND ENJOYING HER COMPANY. ALL A GUT WANTS TO KNOW IS "HOW CAN I MAKE HER MORE COMFORTABLE"?

NOT SO WHEN IT COMES TO GIRLS CHECKLIST.

NOT ALL, BUT A LOT OF GIRLS HAVE A LONG CHECKLIST (CONSCIOUSLY OR NOT) ABOUT WHAT THEY EXPECT TO SEE IN A GUY BEFORE GETTING COMFORTABLE AND OPEN WITH HIM. AND A LOT OF TIMES SHE DOESN'T EVEN KNOW HERSELF WHAT IT IS.

SURE SHIDDUCHIM NEED TO BE APPROACHED WITH AN EMOTIONAL JUDGEMENT TO IT, BUT DONT EXPECT MORE THEN YOU CAN GET OUT OF CONVERSATION WITH A RELATIVE STRANGER THAT IS TRYING TO OPEN UP TO YOU. YOUR HEART DOES NOT NEED TO BEAT 1000 TIMES A MINUTE FOR YOU TO KNOW IF THIS IS THE RIGHT GUY.

IN SHIDDUCHIM,WHAT NEEDS TO BE ASKED IS NOT "DO I LOVE THIS PERSON, BUT IS THIS PERSON I CAN LOVE"?

MY COMMENTS ARE NOT TO PAINT EVERYONE WITH THE SAME BRUSH, OR TO BLAME EITHER SIDE, IT IS JUST A PERSPECTIVE ON WHAT HAPPENS, AND MOST SHADCHANNIM HAVE NOTICED THIS TREND.

HATZLOCHA TO ALL.

p.s. there is a interesting debate between dennis prager and shmuly boteach on the issue of relationships, that might interest some viewers.
(7/1/2010 7:58:01 PM)
27
A Lot of words - Little logic
Thank you for writing the article cause that’s more than I did but here are my comments. The punchlines don’t fit in with the logic of the rest of the articles.

Here are some quotes…

“First look for the right person, then look for the details” Sounds good but where should I be looking, all the people in my Yeshiva are guys and as you said the Shadchanim are not setting me up with normal people.

“I do not think mingling is a solution. It’s not in compliance with our values and standards” Why not?! So you’re saying that the solution is to not have a solution? We’re not talking about guys and girls going to clubs we’re talking about not having the opposite gender caged up.

“What I’ve come to realize is that, we don’t really know what we want, or what will make us happy” I think we know better than anyone else does.

“Beauty is something that each person sees for themselves, and the only way to really decide is by going out and meeting them.” If it’s not a big deal to meet someone then you’re right but it’s too much effort to go on a shidduch with someone when you think you might not like something about him/her. If it were easier to meet someone then you have a point.
(7/1/2010 8:05:46 PM)
28
I disagree, sorry
There is a major problem with this article. The author is trying to tell today's singles how to date and who to marry, but she has a very different viewpoint on marriage than most singles.

She writes (paragraph 7) that: "What will keep a marriage together is not necessarily the love and attraction... It is what you share together, your family and house..."
And later on she writes: "If you would like to get married for the right reasons, which are to build a Jewish home..." and also: "You want to get married to build a home, what kind of home do you want to build?"

In other words, for this author, the *primary* purpose of marriage is to have children and ‘build a home’. Because she is getting married to have children, she can't understand why singles are looking for specific personalities in a spouse. After all, if the spouse is healthy, they can have kids, so just get married. She writes this clearly: "You know what personality is best for you? Do you believe in yourself more than you believe in G-d? Look for the right person to build a home with." In other words, she believes that as long as there is nothing repulsive about the other person, you should get married with him/her, because G-d has directed him/her to you.

What this author needs to realize is that while her viewpoint is perfect valid and legitimate, many singles do not share her view of marriage. They are not getting married just to have children. For them the primary purpose of marriage is to find a soul-mate, someone to love and be loved by, and someone to share their life with. So yes, for them, personality does matter.


(PS: Please note that I am not justifying rejecting people solely based on looks. I am discussing personality; not looks.)
(7/1/2010 8:08:52 PM)
29
to 22
10 am at cucumbers... good for you??? and we can buy cholent from dovid malkah
(7/1/2010 8:18:23 PM)
30
oy gevald
Even though there were a few good points, I wouldn't call this the best article I've read on COL on the topic of shidduchim,

The one major point I took issue with is where the author writes...

"what will keep a marriage together is not neccesarily the love and attraction"

How can you say love isn't an incredibly important factor in keeping a marriage together? Of course it isn't the only thing important in maintaining a healthy marriage, but how can two people run a home, raise children, and live a peaceful life together without love?? It's wrong and completely false. Find me one person with a happy/healthy marriage where one spouse doesn't love the other!
(7/1/2010 8:30:40 PM)
31
To number 23
Why can’t you get to know me for me, Maybe I’m the one.
P.S
I like potato Kugel as well. Maybe that can seal the deal.
(7/1/2010 8:32:09 PM)
32
to 29
Sorry I can tell by your handwriting that you’re a bit chubby. So I am going to have to pass.
Thanks though
(7/1/2010 8:33:50 PM)
33
to number 25...
definitely agree with this. boys AND girls are entitled to want to date someone they are attracted to. There's no need to look down or criticize anyone who has particular specifications on looks. However If one considers looks to be the most important factor in choosing shidduchim, well then...THAT is a problem.
(7/1/2010 8:36:02 PM)
34
To everyone, especially #14, from #4
I am extremely sorry; I meant to correct that while writing it, to say, "born to Jewish mothers, or are gerim, or are non-Jews".

I hope you can forgive me; I myself am actually married to a ger, and I should have been more careful (no matter who I'm married to, or not).

Please accept my heartfelt apologies.
(7/1/2010 9:00:33 PM)
35
Getting Bogged Down by the Details!
i think part of the problem is that the parents are having a hard time working with this new generation of marriagable age children.
They are so focused on doing it 'right' that if their child chas veshalom meets their bashert at a shabbos table or seems them across the room at a Lchaim, that they dont know how to compromise.
Its time for the Parents to take a step back and put things into perspective, and not get caught up in the technicality of it.
So your son saw a girl he wants to date at a yom tov meal. FINE! So you checked her out and everything sounds normal, FINE! So he would rather have his friend play 'shadchan' FINE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Hashem orcastrates this world, and as long as everything is done 'kosher', its ok for it to happen in a non traditional way.
(7/1/2010 9:11:29 PM)
36
to number 33
you got it!
(7/1/2010 9:29:04 PM)
37
fatties unite..
You touched on a sore subject!! Why is it that being overweight is such a terrrible thing for a girl looking for a shidduch. i have 2 nieces in the parsha--- both excellent girls, pretty, smart and from good stable families.. Their weight always comes up when shidduchim are redt.. Really is that what we have been reduced to
(7/1/2010 10:02:27 PM)
38
ARE GUYS SO BAD???
why is it that looks always get pinned to guys? like gilrs dont care about looks!!!!!! Mothers, friends, etc. ask me about guy's looks. and we all know that there have been guys turned down because their beard was too big!!! Chasidish girl turning down a guy who has never touched his beard!!! Looks matter regardless if you are a boy or a girl. the degree to which they matter depends on the person. Ladies, stop the righteous acting. looks matter to you too. to some of you less than others, yes, but it matters to you too. And it should. part of a healthy marriage includes being attracted to the person you are with. the shallow boys and girls who care about looks will wind up together and the boys/girls who it is not as important to, will also wind up together. the shallwo people will just have to extra careful when that attraction fades that they have more than physical beauty as a reason to be married.
with that said, the author does make a good point about the generation being different and that a different approach should be taken. mostly this has to do with not being narrow minded. don't cross girl off because she is 22 or because a guy goes to college. find out who they are! does college define them or do they define themselves. does the girl being older really make a difference in the long run?
Author: of this you were most certainly correct, there is not a crisis! just t time and effort necessary to better understand ourselves and relationships. with every match that doesn't work out, we learn a bit more and get a little bit closer.
(7/1/2010 10:11:55 PM)
39
finally someone smart!
im a bochur and i have to totally agree with number 35.... whats so wrong with having an interest in a boy/girl that you saw or spoke to at a shabbos table?? did they do anything wrong by speaking to one another??? is it against halacha?? NO, but anything to make it harder for young men and women to get married is what seems to be happening!!
(7/1/2010 10:30:14 PM)
40
For the record
Two years ago my brother married a girl who was about a year and a half older than he was, and it's a fantastic shidduch, B"H. She is mature, and a big mensch as well, and she's really bringing out the best in him. My parents looked beyond the superficial things, and our family is so glad they did! For boys to marry slightly older girls is one good solution to the shidduch "situation" that can probably work for lots of couples. I highly recommend that people consider it seriously.
(7/1/2010 11:28:15 PM)
41
To #16
It seems to me that you have missed the point of the article. #1 is simply addressing the issue of why parents and children have much more of a gap between them these days than long ago. It's, in great part, because years ago children spent much more time with their parents and were guided by them more in their younger years. This article focuses on a parent to whom this is a matter of concern and who may wish to make the sacrifice and stay with the children longer. A woman who is more concerned with her rights is free to do as she chooses and the writer does not appear to be imposing anything on anyone.
(7/1/2010 11:31:13 PM)
42
Attn Single Girls
Keep on writing these articles. I love 'em!
(7/1/2010 11:37:56 PM)
43
To # 38
You are right! I am a girl, and of course I care about looks.
(7/1/2010 11:42:14 PM)
44
To #30 & #28
Before attacking the line, ask yourself, or ask a mashpia: "What is Marriage? And what is Love?"

The writer does not say that love is not important or non-existent. Love is the meaning in your life together, in your relationship, your common achievements which unites a husband and wife because they bring G-d into their life and that is the ultimate. Some people are not blessed with children r"l and some don't see marriage as being all about building a home but no couple after 20 childless years will agree that they feel happy and fulfilled without having had the chance to build a family.

And there's no such thing as "falling in love" - you don't fall anywhere except down. Love is what comes through experiences, through years of ups and downs, through tears and laughs, and that's what's everlasting and that cannot be something that a person can find by dating.

This seems to be the author's point. Look to share the same values so that you will supportive of each other and that will hold the relationship together in order to make room for the love to grow and be cherished.

To the author: thank you for writing this article and articulating a few important points. May Hashem help you find your zivug hagun vetoiv and to all those who need, may it be soon in a very clear way!
(7/1/2010 11:42:37 PM)
45
Responce from the author
Its very hard to write so many words in one piece.
To those who think that marriage is only about building a house together and attraction and love doesn't matter:

The reason why we as Jews get married is to build a house. Love and attraction and compatability are also important, but like I said, they all fall into place. If it is the right person, you will be attracted to them, you will find them funny, cute, pretty, and the greatest person in the world. I understand that you may be a feminist, but if you're getting married to find a good person to live with, like I said, go to vegas, or move in together but marrrying eachother will just be a game. Marriage is not about love and attraction, marriage is about building a home together, a life together. If your spouse is important to you, you will love them, just like anything else you like in life, you like it because its important to you. Love doesn't happen right away, its not magic, thats why I think that the right person that you can 'mesh' well with is most important, and all the details like love and attraction and enjoying ones company will fall into place. If it doesn't than like i said perviously, you are not for eachother.

For those who think wanting pretty girls is a bad thing:
I never said its a bad thing. People just get tied up in it, because our generation is very materialistic and looks are materialistic. People tend to think at first glance that the look is what the person is. We all know thats not true. But we also know that sometimes you just find a person repulsive, ugly, and or just not pretty. Thats fine. My point is, how can you say that if you never went out with the girl?
what are you afraid of? If you go out and you find that you don't really like the way she looks, it bothers you, than she's not for you. But you can only say that once you get to know the person somewhat. Because if they are the right person and you are a good match, trust me, you will find them attractive, not only attractive but she/he will be the prettiest person on earth to you.

I'm sorry that I can't clarify everything. Please bare in mind that I failed english class, and had other people do my essays for me, so I apologize for the poor quality of writing.
(7/2/2010 12:16:36 AM)
46
additional point
Good article.

Just I don't believe that people who think looks are the priority will just 'change'. It's a subconscious attitude and I'd very much rather not go out with a guy who thinks looks are important because honestly, that type of guy doesn't interest me. If that's one of his top priorities, I don't want to have to feel for the rest of my life that he comparing me to the rest of the gals he walks past.

To continue, this attitude is not even a want, rather it's a need. To them a successful marriage is one where they are married to s/one good looking and/or moneyed and/or successful, etc.

Honestly, it's the truth. Moneyed people marry people who have money, good looking people generally marry the same, these are their priorities, and they generally won't change. And if these are your priorites, fortunately or unfortunately, then you should look for these - I'm saying this not condescendingly, but because that way your marriage will work.

But for myself, leave me out of it. My priority is to share my life with someone who is kind, who will appreciate my artistic talent and my appreciation of the beauty in life. And To all those girls/guys who are looking for someone who is more deep, who is sensitive, kind, caring, to who love and laughter and the experience of the moment is the most important thing - hopefully out there there is someone out there who will appreciate you for who you are - it may take a little while to get it but it's what you need!

Good luck!

(7/2/2010 12:34:55 AM)
47
Good & bad
The author makes some valid points & ignores others Many Shadchanim & people are quck to attach a stigma to another person Lashon Harah & rechilus(lies etc.) are rampant & are destroying shidduchim I saw one destroyed before my very eyes A totally fabricated lie was told about a Bachur that lead directly to the destruction of the shidduch right after they went to the ohel Got a fantastic answer from the Rebbe! to make matters worse the Shadchan talking to the girl & several others who were there who had no business butting in etc. telling the girl If I had known he was such a low life I would never have propsed the shidduch etc.I know of a case where the shadchan told a single person that he refuse to help that person because of who the person's Baal habayis/Baal Habasta is!! when directly confronted on the issue the Shadchan lied to the single person's face tried to deny it etc..Since "professional Shadchanim refuse or neglect their responsibility in many cases how about putting together a shiur or speech for singles(can be divided by age group) & have a few volunteers or even so called Shadchanim there that would at the conclusion interview the singles & then put two people together for a private initial discussion..At the conclusion of the alloted time period they discuss with that person & decide whether or not to pursue further.You may find that one or the other would say maybe not for me but he she would be perfect for my friend/relative If you agree say so & let's put heads together to make it a reality A Kiddush hashem & give the Rebbe Nachas in several ways 1. we are making real efforts to make shidduchim 2. we are doing it right mixing in Torah 3. doing it in a Tznius & kosher way I can think of no better way to help ourselves etc.!
(7/2/2010 12:36:52 AM)
48
to # 26
Good point.
Where can I read the debate?
(7/2/2010 12:59:45 AM)
49
why worry?
thats why we have botachon... because with bitachon we can do ANYTHING!
(7/2/2010 1:15:54 AM)
50
to hard
i was married but not divorce, and i have the solution for the problem, d'ont get married, married life is to hard, girls are dryving you crazy, one day they want this tomorow they want something else stay single enjoy life, nobody boders you is the best, if you see a nice girl, d'ont think how nice she is, think she is a boder for you and then you will forget about girls and your life will be so much better
(7/2/2010 3:15:09 AM)
51
to 25
there is nothing wrong with a guy wanting a pretty girl, but when its at the top of his list, thats when it becomes a problem.

pretty is on the inside neways, you can have a beautiful girl, but once you get to know her, she can be not nice and she isnt so beautiful anymore. visa versa, you can get to know an ugly looking person and they can have a fantastic personality and all of the sudden they dont look so bad.

I can tell you this first hand experience. we once had this guy eat in our house and he was farrr from good looking. we really enjoyed his company and at the end of the meal, i thought to myself how he's not as ugly as he was when he walked in :)

so beauty is the in the eyes of the beholder. lets get real here, most you guys are not that great looking (especially) to have "pretty" as your prime factor in finding a girl.
(7/2/2010 4:06:11 AM)
52
Points to ponder and more
#28 Well put!!!

My dear authoress, it sounds like you are extremely frustrated, I don't blame you finding the right person to marry is hard, exhausting and tedious!

It sounds like you vented on a peice of paper (or word document) and sent it in. While your frustration is legitimate, lets get real: You absolutely MUST be attracted to the person you marry otherwise your marriage to start with is a recipe for disaster.

As I have been on the dating scene for quite a few years, divorced with a child, I empathize, its tough for anyone.

If anyone has suggestions, offers or just plain names of guys, I have a few divorced and single friends who would greatly benefit, please email me at:

greenie2010@gmail.com
(7/2/2010 4:42:11 AM)
53
???
NOTHING new mentioned....
.....and I found this article rather childish and silly!
(7/2/2010 6:59:45 AM)
54
to #35
You are right! If a person is interested in another after meeting them in a sociable environment like a shabbos table at a friends house for example why not go for it??? Young people should not be afraid to mention to their parents that they met someone and would like to officially go on a date with them. If the parents get a name and they do their own "investigation" then what is the problem. The traditional way does not always work for everyone. Healthy and wonderful marriages do not only happen when done through shadchan. People must open their eyes and see that there are other ways to meet your bashert.
Hatzlocho to all and good shabbos
(7/2/2010 9:19:31 AM)
55
New Generation? 8th Generation in Lubavitch?
Did anyone notice how this innocent young lady so naturally described her generation as a new generation. She happens to be right. But what happened to the 7th generation? LAst generation of golus and first of redemption? There clearly is a new generation in Lubavitch, an 8th generation if you will, but just like there are only 7 days in the week, there are only 7 generations, but like Shabbos, the 7th generation includes two aspects, the 7th and 8th (see the mamarim on Parshas Shmini through almost all of Raboseinu Nesieinu).

Folks, we are in a critical point of the beginning of an 8th generation. A generation of baalei Teshuva, a generation of no revelations (like the Rebbe farbrenging in 770 and sending giluym everywhere).

A generation where Atzmus Ein Sof is openly revealed, but right now it looks like complete darkness.

The generation gap is evident in other discussions in Chabad - is the Internet good or bad? Shiduchim. Moshiach! The 8th generation doesn't care anymore from "your" machlokes. The 8th generation is united, inspired, ready to be mekabel pnei Moshiach.
(7/2/2010 9:59:23 AM)
56
Well written
you CAN write well!
(7/2/2010 10:43:46 AM)
57
good article, but...
you write, "when all is said and done, what will keep a marriage together is not neccesarily the love and attraction. That comes and goes." my dear, all i can say is that if the love is not what keeps the marriage thriving, and indeed if it comes and goes, you are going to be in big, big trouble!
(7/2/2010 11:43:37 AM)
58
we have to discriminate
as a bochur who pays his own way in shidduchim if i went out with every girl that comes up i would be broke. if i think that a in a picture the girl doesnt look good i wont go out.
(7/2/2010 11:55:09 AM)
59
to #57
I don't think anyone really thinks that way...that is troublesome. Everybody wants to have a happy marrieage with love. I think the point is, that love is not the bottom line] Meaning, don't get married for love, that comes and goes. G-d willing if both parties put themselves into it wholeheartidly then the love they share will stay and spice it up. But love and attraction is not the basis, its all inclusive. If its a good marriage, the love comes right along. But good marriage doesn't come or happen just because two people of the opposite gender 'love' or are 'attracted' to eachother.
(7/2/2010 12:02:25 PM)
60
Great Article
very well written
(7/2/2010 12:21:58 PM)
61
to #50
that is soo not true!!! i dont know where you get that from!! maybe that was just your wife but all girls are definitly not like that!! you are just decouraging boys to get married!!!
and btw to the auther i really think that love and attraction is part of getting married, you get attracted to the boy then you look in to him!!
thats the way i think anyway!!
btw the person who wrote #35 you really know what your talking about!!! sometimes the parents get to in the way with things like that!! i definetly give you credit for that one!!
(7/2/2010 12:54:08 PM)
62
to #50 and to #61
to # 50 you right as a bochur i tryed and i gave up on shiduchim, the shadchonim d'ont care about even if they know you are like a number for them or an amount of $$$ for them, and @ the end of the day they is no real love today, everything is "ahava shehi teluya bedovoor" so " botel dovor betela ahava" they marry you for your money or for your family not for who you realy are, so like the authur said "there are more girls then boys" so beacose the girls are despert to get married beacose ther is no one else out there, and after all " married life is solving problems the rest of your life that you would never have single"

to # 61 how could you say it's not true the gemoro says clearly " noshim da'atan kalos" that means is the nature of a wife to change her mind and not be sure
(7/2/2010 3:48:30 PM)
63
suggestion
To all the people writing about meeting someone at a shabbos table there is a program in long island where an older and responsible couple will host a couple of guys and girls at their shabbos table in the hopes that they will hit it off with one of the opposite gender this way they get to mingle with people they might have turned down had they just seen them "on paper" but it is in a supervised and kosher way. Perhaps it is something that crown heights can benefit from?
(7/4/2010 12:11:35 AM)
64
to 12
Lol. I was thinking the same thing... and i'm single
(7/4/2010 1:28:14 AM)
65
to # 62
well said if you open a club i will a fan
(7/4/2010 1:58:50 AM)
66
im a bochur
i agree a thousand % that the beauity of agirl comes from with in and unfortunally ppl (boys) dont sometimes realize that & there for have to b trained & not to chas vshalom distracted by the external lies
(7/4/2010 3:25:47 AM)
67
Girls looking for Mr Macho Hunk as a priority. too should look in Vegas.
The girls mindset: Why should girls in todays day and age rush into marriage there are so many opportunitys for her. Teaching shlichus etc. why the rush? Look when she has accumulated some of her own money her own independance etc Also why by that time settle for less she has become more powerful so she is looking for a man thats such.
SO in my opinon women should stop looking for Mr Macho Hunk full of it guy, if thats the case then let them too look in Vegas.
(7/4/2010 3:26:19 AM)
68
gerim
bs'd

have a ger in the family now
could not have asked for more of a mentsch
our judgemental attitude keeps us stuck in a golus mindset
(7/4/2010 11:12:29 AM)
69
to #37
If you are fat, then go on a diet! Fatness is something you can control - if you're ugly, then plastic surgery is expensive! But you can go on a diet for free - just eat less!
(7/4/2010 8:27:44 PM)
70
I am a Bochur...(That lost a lot of weight)...
I am sorry, but this girl sounds clueless..Yes you must build a Bayis Nee'man Biyisroel, but it can only begin with attraction, and love, yes love grows stronger (hopefully) over time...
"Pretty" "beauty" is all inclusive with looks and personality... So it seems very innocent to say just go out even if she isn't so pretty at first glance, but the problem here is you are not realizing the double standard over here...A bochur (who has money from where?) should go out with any girl thrown at him and pay for the night, (hundreds of dollars he does not have) over again and again!?
Why are the guys always to blame? How bout you pay for every night without even seeing a picture to at least know that her eyebrows aren't clouding up her eyes!
I understand that there is an issue that the older girls are not getting married, but if statistics say that i.e. there are 3 girls per 1 bochur, there will def. be 2 girls per guy not getting finding a shidduch (easily)...It's a very unfortunate situation, but it's also a factual situation that will not change unless "MOTHERS STARTS HAVING MORE BOYS" so be real and stop making bochurim sound bad with all of this disturbing slander...Everyone wants the right shidduch and IM'Y everyone will get the right one, but stop with the stupidity...Just post up a sichah of the rebbe and that's it...
Btw #'s 25, 35, 38, 53, 57, and 58 all got it straight! Right on!
But for # 37, Let's talk about "fat"...
I am a bochur, lets cut the crap...Fat is unattractive in most cases, otherwise "YOU, YES YOU, THE WOMAN READING THIS RIGHT NOW WOULD NOT BE ON A "SO CALLED DIET" every few minutes...
At "first glance", natural instinct is "fat" is disgusting,
I have nothing against anyone fat, but now lets try to see why (logically) anyone would not want someone fat for a shidduch, let's analyze...
#1 It's just not a pretty sight
#2 It implys the person is lazy
#3 It implys that the person has no self control...
Point is, face the reality women, instead of crying about shiduchim over a bucket of ice cream, smile about it on a treadmill, you will be happy that you made the decision anyways...I always used to be the fat one no one would even look at, I discovered the problem and tackled it I began to work hard on my self, lost weight and built a few muscles, and suddenly girls are willing to talk to me, let alone look at me.I am very chassidish, I do not talk to girls, but now they feel the freedom to get my interest...(btw girls are just as capable of being shallow)...
"So 'Author', I respect your complaint but, you have many glitches and many expectations from others...
(I need you to take this as positive reinforcement) I don't know what you look like, and frankly I don't care, but know this, if you are so beautiful on the inside you must try your hardest to make sure that it reflects on the outside, it may be hard putting on nail polish or brushing your hair for ten years, but this is the reality, STOP DREAMING...If you want change, do it in yourself, whether it's your character or physical traits...
Btw did you takeh think about that??
Maybe it is your attributes you must work on...;)
good luck...
Hope the bluntness didn't hurt too much...
(7/5/2010 2:12:31 AM)
71
To #70
I'm glad you put it all out there. I don't think guys are to blame. But like you said, look at the statistics. I don't think that you should go out with somebody if you find them repulsive, but like you said, it begins with love and attraction. That is so wrong and a big problem today in relationships is exactly that. That is why they don't last. If that is your foundation and your begining than its also the end. I understand you want a pretty girl and fat is repulsive, thats normal. Also, people want 'the like.' Meaning, most skinny people will naturally go after someone that is skinny as well. Black people marry black people and so on and so forth. But thats not the bottom line. Many people aren't just looking for someone pretty, they are looiking for a beach blond perfect babe. Well guess what boy, the reason why you do research is to find out what the person is like and if they will suit you and if you are a good match. If the person is good for you and you really hit it off well, what are you scared of? You are trying to plan things out in your life that you will never be able to do. By making the looks and prettiness of a person that improtant you diminish yourself and the girl. Feminisim brought women and men down. Women don't respect themselves, therefor men don't. when you diminish a woman to her looks, you are diminishing yourself as well. Keep on thinking that love and attraction is all that matters......you'll be happy for a bit but at the end of the day if your wife is a *itch or has other issues her prettiness won't matter. Beauty is also very materialistic, just like after a while your house needs a renovation so to you will think so about your wife or girl...you'll get sick of her. Thats why I think you may need to go to vegas and get it out of your system. If she's right, you will be attracted to her and love her, but its not the bottom line.
what do you call fat anyway? Your expectations of a pretty, and thin girl are probably what you see in the maggy's or the billboards. I think you just need to change your prespective a bit and not be worried about all those things. Just make sure you know what you want in life and in your marriage and the pretty and skinny unrepulsive and un-fat girl will come your way.

There's a lot more to this subject, that is easier to say in words, I hope you understood for the most part and I'm glad you took control of your life and lost some weight.

Good Luck. Not hurt at all, just wouldn't be able to marry someone that thinks like you. If anything, you would be hurting yourself and your future relationships not me. But thank you for being bold and stating what many people aren't.
(7/5/2010 1:48:32 PM)
72
AN OLD FOGEY speaks out
B'h

Concerning looks whilst I agree it is needed. It's all relative who I will find handsome you may find downright ugly since with sight taste smell we are different B'h. Can you imagine if we all were the same YIKES.

2. There is nothing that a little' facepaint' can't fix up. Garaunteed some of us need more then others but we girls could all use it.


3. Weight most normal people do not need to have a certain size when they marry it's the overall look that they will or will not be impressed by.
Yes I at 5-10 looked like a svelte size 8 when I married gasp, I was a size 12 noone would have known and quite frankly noone really cares.
SO whoever is asking for a body mass index needs their heads examined.

After B'h tons of years married the only thing that has not failed me is my personality and a value system. Who wants to deal with a Nasty individual, a kvetch or a nudge this is what both our sons and daughters should be looking for a Chassidishe Mentch!!
All I can do is wish hatzlacha to those girls and boys looking that they should have their prioritys straight and that davening is very important.
(7/5/2010 2:53:35 PM)
73
To #71
Ok let me make something clear, as far as I am concerned I am not that stereo typical shallow person that you were reffering to...I made it clear in the begining that that "pretty" and "beauty" are INCLUSIVE with personality...It's a combination which excludes anyone that is a *itch...
Next is I think we both agree but have different interpretations for words, tell me if I am wrong...for example...
When you say that "attraction" and "love" cannot be a foundation for a marriage...
YOU-
Attraction- Attracted to the physicallity, i.e. eye color, proportions, weight...
Love- Loving the physical beauty of that person rather than the persons essential being...
Tell me if I am wrong or not, but if this is what the meaning of these words are to you than I can agree that this cannot be a foundation for a marriage...
But if you translate those same words the way I do...
Attraction- Having a physical attraction plus an attraction to their personality...i.e. it clicks...
Love- As it says in chassidus "ahava sheaina tluya b'davar", a true love which has no dependancy on anything, i.e. loving the essential person...than this is definitely the foundation, or start of a marriage, obviously working out all other important issues, but this is the starting point...I hope it's not too complicated, and I wish the best for you...

(7/6/2010 3:11:07 AM)
74
To #73
thank you for clarifying.
Love in general is a pretty big and general word.
You know what real love is?
when you see an 80 year old couple walking downt e street. The husband is wheel chair bound and his wife is pushing him along. It takes a long time to get to that point. So yes i thihnk thats important and I believe a marriage needs that love and attraction. In the begining though, it does start as love thats depends on a reason and hopefully grows deeper and deeper. thats why I'm saying that the love and attraction which is important is part of the foundation, but also consider that the type of home and life you want to build is extremely important and may i say even more important. Because love and attraction grows but it can go nowhere if your two completely different ppl with completely diffetrent goals and outlooks. Because one day you're gonna wake up and say, who is this person that I'm living with? Love comes and goes, has ups and downs......but thats not whats gonna keep you together in tough times necesarilly. Its the common goals and ground and the way you build your relationship and home. Again, i think its really all inclusive. Two people that have the same values and are nice and seem like they could totally go together..if they are not interested in eachother the marriage will fail. So you really do need both, jsut don't fool yourselves and think that if you have love and attraction your good to go. Many poeple do and they heither hit a dead end or settle for that or just wait around for the perfect beautiful person with all the perfect accesories.
Everybody wants a loving relationship, but just don't know how to get there.
Rabbi Manis Friedman is the best person on this subject. he sheds a light that is so clear that no one else does.
(7/6/2010 12:55:52 PM)
75
to 58
And if I would choose to go out with boys based on their pictures, then I would never go out on dates!!!! so there
(7/6/2010 11:10:50 PM)
76
to 75
True that.
Thats why I think this picture thing is pathetic...its like your goin out with the person....you also want to predict what they look like. And if you don't, why do you wanna see the pic?
Ppl judge, thats what we do, there is no way you can go into a date without preconceived notions about the persons looks when you see that picture. Is research not enough?
(7/7/2010 12:59:30 AM)
77
to #23 and #30
i totally agree with # 30 you have some good points but what type of person is happy without the love of there soul mate eventhough you have kids so you want to stay together and not divorce so you can keep the kids from bieng sccared your still not happy... there is no such thing that love fades away if that was the case why would there be people getting divorced ? you dont love the person but why not stay together is that it? i believe that to keep a marriage intact is love as one of the most important aspects in a marriage.... and # 23 you are obviously very imiture because u think from the writing of someone that hes fat how close minded and dumb are you? answer is very!!! like this single girl wrote right on top dont look at looks as the main thing
(7/11/2010 7:29:42 PM)
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