Jun 1, 2010
It's Not all Black & White
Shidduchim SOS: If you are going to marry what someone else thinks is good for you, but not what is truly good for you, then you will be miserable.
I would like to address a misconception which has crept in to our community at large, and more specifically to our single boys and girls on the shidduch scene.
There was a comment on the last Shidduch Op-Ed - "A Crime to be Chassidish?" - that got a lot of feedback and for good reason, it was pretty controversial and, in my opinion, not very intelligent and not very accurate.
The part of the comment which I am addressing reads as follows: "Crude as it may sound, shidduchim is all about how you market yourself, it's one big P.R. game Guys are either selling themselves as the learning 770 bochur who's going on Shlichus or the working guy who is frum but trims his beard or the gezha guy who has a lot of family money etc........with girls it's the same deal, - yes every one of you are multiple dimensional complicated deep people but unfortunately you gotta pick one image, one persona that you put out there and you gotta stick with it, otherwise you send out mixed messages and it just causes confusion for everyone else and frustration for you."
First of all, not everything is so black and white as you put it. What I mean to say is, not every guy is either in 770 looking to go on shlichus or is working and trims his beard. You don't have to stick to "one persona or one image," as you put it.
There are some guys who are working and don't trim their beards and who want to go on shlichus when they get married and build a frum and chassidishe home.
There are some who are in 770 and one day they are looking to have a business or career in whatever field they choose.
This labeling of people is really wrong.
So guys and gals, listen up:
If you are working and looking to go on shlichus eventually then say so to whomever you talk to in regards to your shidduchim - friends, parents, etc... and don't say you are looking for a boy/girl with a career or profession in another field. There is no black and white, there are some guys who will not go to a movie and don't want to have movies in their house and still want to build a chassidishe home - but not necessarily on shlichus. This is not a contradiction to being open-minded and with-it.
There are some who would want someone who doesn't sit all day and watch movies but still is open-minded enough to understand that there is a world out there and can enjoy themselves and knows how to have fun in ways other than going to the movies. For example - going to restaurants, shopping, going to a baseball game etc. There are many different levels and you have to be specific in what you are truly looking for in a spouse and levels of frumkeit.
As important as having simillar goals and hashkafois are, I think the personality of the person and their middos are just as important. Is he a mentsch? Is he nice and giving? Is she the type of person who will go out of her way for someone else, or totally self-absorbed and selfish and high maintenance? I think this is what people need to make sure that they not overlook.
Sometimes we get so caught up in "do we share the same ideals and goals" and we forget the main thing, "is this person a mentsch and can I live with them and be happy, or will she use me and abuse me and be a 'Machashifah'."
If she will be that, then it doesnt matter if we share the same goals or ideals, the marriage will not last, and if it does, it will definitely have a negative impact on the future children and ch"v generations to come.
If you're a girl and you're looking for guy who wants to go on shlichus and is frum, you have to learn how to look past the chitzoniyus, not like Mr. #6 says, but rather what is he now and what does he want to do when he settles down and gets married and what type of home does he want to build.
Just because he works doesn't disqualify him/her from not wanting to go on shlichus or wanting a frum home.
This is called being truthful with one's self and what they are really looking for.
If you are going to marry what someone else thinks is good for you but not what is TRULY good for you then you will be miserable and not be happy.
Is the point just to get married??? Or to stay married and build a beautiful home and stay happily married for many years to come?
Be truthful with what you are and what you are looking for and know that there is nothing wrong with being multi-faceted in regards to working and still looking to go on shlichus one day or vice versa, if you're in 770 and looking to have a business or work not in a moisad.
Good luck to all on finding their bashert very very soon!!!
I am now faced with a delema of what to do the coming year. I don´t want to work in a yeshiva, or waste my time in 770 (as many guys my age do). I am an open minded guy who wants to go on shlichus after i get married, but think i have a good buisness sense and want to work for the next year or two until i´m ready to get married.
The problem is, that once i start working, i am labeling myself as a ¨working bochur¨. the fact that i learn shlosha perakim rambam and learn chitas every day, learn a few sichos and at least one maamar a week won´t help me from being labeled a ¨working bochur¨.
In truth i am really sickend by the whole thing, and if i knew that i could marry someone that can look past such ¨labeling¨, i would go and work and forget what everyone else says, because it really only matters what the person i am iy¨h going to marry thinks. But being that the reality is that most people DO label, and DO generalize, I am back with my original problem of what to do for the next year or two until i get married.
As the expression goes, "A shvere golus".
like it or not
the most car crashes happen when the light is orange; neither red or green!
YES OR NO?
(and to all those sour faced dry people with no sense of humor who will immediatly scream out their comments of how pathetic it has gotten to that girls are willing to marry total strangers well I'm saving you the time and finger energy used on typing your indignant comments with this disclaimer-Of course I wouldnt!)
and to the author I laughed out loud at your description of a girl you most def. have gone out with- a self absorbed selfish and high maintainance girl- am I right??!!
Please don't pigeonhole yourself. Please try to figure out what YOU want in life and communicate it properly. Please don't tell the person you are dating after 3+ dates that you are really looking for X. That just hurts people.
The author expressed himself very well.
I am a "working girl". I dont trim my beard :) I wear jean skirts, watch movies occasionally, daven daily, like to shop and travel, read english novels....the list goes on. My point is is that I am looking for a chassidishe home, am also looking for a man in the professional field, but that doesn't mean I have to let my hopes up because according to you, all business men trim.
Point proven- it's NOT all black and white.
To your claim against 770 that Bochurim don’t learn
Pick a goal of what you want to learn either a Masechta L'iyun Or even continue on in learning Halacha there are many Bochurim In 770 learning Schita or Dayanus you just need something to stick with
You can make it too to Seder here all the talk of Bochurim missing all the time in 770 is if you don’t won’t to learn
As the saying goes if there is a will there is a way
i am there from 7:45am untill 10:30 everyday and there are a bunch more here like me
as we say here t.o.t
i wish you all hatzlocha in catching your fish
The truth is that MOVIES ARE BLACK! So are English novels! Both clearly against the Rebbe's specific stipulation! How then can you say that it's not black and white?
stop making generalizations
I have to point out that people either click or they don't. You can share the same goals, be a wonderful person and still be bored out of your mind on a date.
Let me be extremely clear, I am NOT interested in a guy being a genius or going to college, all I want for him to be a normal working guy.
Fed up with system !
Are there any real frum people out there anymore?
Besides shadchanim what about FRIENDS!!!!!
to #9 People DO label but keep in mind that just as many don't.
to #13 I learned in 770. Bochurim tend to come late at times but they do learn!! Listen to #17,18 and 24.
to #31 EVERYONE is a potentiol Shadchan. Lets bang some heads together and have some Mazel Tov's.Lechaim.
Here we are talking about the way people live their lives and one girl may say her chitas is 100% tznius, but has no problem reading goyshe novels, yet you can have a guy who trims his beard, watches movies, goes to bars, and says 3 prokim rambam e. day.
What the author is trying to say u cannot divide e/1 into 2 categories of black and white...it def would make shidduchim easier lol.
The shades of grey are what make life interesting, no two people are alike....
However I choose to ignore it, and live by the motto, that if someone dismisses me just because they think they don't like one aspect of what they hear, without finding out who I am as a whole person, then that person isn't the right person for me anyway.
There are fine catches who will be "earners and learners". Earning a living, whether getting a job on shlichus, kli kodesh or just an honest job is a noble goal.
Likewise, if someone is learning a trade or profession while also being kovaya itim - deserves our highest respect. He isn't being a batlan, shooting the breeze and yenting while keeping a bench warm in 770. He is forward looking and knows that he will soon need to pay rent and expenses - and not rely on handouts from government or relatives.
Shlichus is a pipe dream - bochurim follow the party line and SAY you want shlichus, knowing full well that it probably won't happen (hundreds of married couples waiting for shlichus). They are scared to say the truth - that they have no idea what they will do for parnasa, that they are unqualified to do any work. Those who have qualifications or are working towards that goal must hide in terror for their reputation! Touro means you are THAT type of bochur, and displaces you from the "good" bochurim!
Shlichus and learning don't always go hand in hand. Some married men leave on shlichus and rarely open a sefer (except when forced to prepare a shiyur for their balibatim).
A working bochur who dedicates a significant part of his time to be kovaya itim in a bais hamedrash is preparing for real life.
Sadly the shidduch system has come to what is written on your piece of paper... a paper cannot do justice to a person!
When choosing from a piece of paper obviously you want everything to be perfect... and on a piece of paper someone who is chassidish doesnt make sense to be watching movies... but we are not pieces of paper and therefore both sides can exist... we can strive to be chassidish and learn etc... but at the same time give in to desires and watch a movie!
My question is how can we shift the shidduch system from judging off a paper to looking at a whole person. When choosing from paper obviously you will reject the non perfect, non gorgeous, seemingly confused person... while in reality this person may have tremendous abilities and talents that out weigh everything!
How do we be come people again and not pieces of paper?
Gevalt! Why are you going out if "is not even remotely compatible to what I want." ? You are wasting your time AND his time. If there was something in the suggestion you REMOTELY compatible why do you do it? The one you need to go out with has to be (even a slight) possibility, otherwise you do like those who say "Oh here we have pants and a skirt, great match!"
Shidduchim is the one thing we have NO control over. It comes from the Aibishter when the time is right with the right person. Sure we have to do what we must (make a Keily, research, speak to people, also to shadchonim, helping a friend etc.) and we have veto power (bechira) like in all things, but what you describe sounds to me like desperation. Channel your desperation into doing extra ruchnius, it will get you further!
May you go out with one who has what you need and answers you "yes" and may it be soon.
Mrs Junik
i KNOW this is hard on the ears and its kind of callus in nature but i guess the point is, if the girls made a slight effort towards weight loss or other appearance improvements the boys WILL notice and we will all be surprised at how their minds can open to new ideas as far as families and backgrounds go.
id love to hear the readers thoughts.
THE REBBE SAID THAT A BOCHUR SHOULD NOT GO INTO BUSINESS/ THINK ABOUT PARNASSA UNTIL HE IS MARRIED!!
so go ahead and do whatever you decide you want to do! but then dont say "im a chassidish working guy" because your not doing what the Rebbe said!!!!
thanks for saying what i wanted to say
the truth must be heard
someone who is working and or going to college and chassidish is OKAY-its not labeling him a chilled guy.Let us the get the message out there!!
FYI, there is nothing wrong or unchassidish about working, in fact if you ever learned a sichah you will find that working is a holy thing and the main part of a yid's avodah.
So it seems that working is not feh and "yeeeiiichi."
if a person deals with those instances accordingly then he is a mentch
to nr 6: PLEASE DONT MAKE UP YOUR OWN TRANSLATION ON PSUKIEM!!!!
I'm frustrated. I'm frustrated because I am a Lubavitch girl. I am not black and white. I am a 20 year old girl looking for my bashert, and here you come, and instead of giving inspiration, you give deprivation towards ever finding a shidduch.
How about this- I've been on so many dates and I put effort into dressing beautifully, brushing my teeth ( you won't believe how many guys have showed up on a date with, I'm assuming, spinach stuck in their teeth), and prepping myself for a proper date. Most guys I've gone out with can only be described as SHLUMPY! They dress in wrinkled clothes, some no tie/ or yes tie, depends on the person, and plop, yes PLOP themselves in the car that it causes the whole car to shake.
Mentch? Maybe to some standards. Not mine. I make an effort to be polite, dress nicely, and gracefully let myself in the car. Not plop.
So maybe shadchanim are over worked, under appreciated, too popular for their own good. But there's never an excuse for indecency.
I am sorry to be mean but shadchanim need to get a clue about the real shidduch scene and what the singles are dealing with today.
I can tell you first hand one of the main problems is as follows:
A mother wants to find out more about a guy so she calls someone from his refrence list, the guy doesn't know how to articulate and gives a very unclear discription. So the mother calls someone else and he doesnt know the guy very well so he says things that are so not accurate.
Now the mother is turned off and thinks this guy is not what her daughter is looking for, based of course on bad information. Meanwhile the guy is what she was looking for it could have been a great shiduch.
THE POINT IS GUYS STOP TALKING GARBAGE IF YOU DONTSOMEONE OR YOU HAVENT BEEN IN TOUCH
JUST SAY YOU DONT KNOW !!!
Guys feel bad when they cant help. just say you dont know the guy well stop messing up his chances im sick of this.
How do I know this because at the end of every single call I get, the mother says your amazing so articulate and to the point you really know how to describe him.
The truth is I just know him very well thats all very simple.
Mothers regret not letting thier daughters go out because they find out later he really was a great guy but now hes married already.
To all the mothers out there: not everything you hear about someone is written in stone find out the truth make sure the refrence really knows him!!!
Lubavitch needs guys who are mentchen and well balanced, open minded and down to earth. Guys who dont fool themselves, they know who they are and what thier looking for!
Remember thousnads of years ago a pact was made between yisacher and zevulen Rashi says thier both equal okay we need both no one is greater then the other !!
GOOD LUCK TO EVERYONE
REMEMBER THIER IS A GOD IN THE WORLD !
THERE = THERE EXISTS
THEIR = BELONGING TO THEM
WE LEARN THIS IN ELEMENTARY!
Based on all the above info about myself I have decided to reveal here, how would I be labeled in the Shiduch World?
#56 and #57- maybe speak for your daughters, but I for myself and speaking on my sisters and friends behalf dress and take care of ourselves very nicely. It's always a let dow to me when they guy shows up in no tie, a wrinkled shirt, and baggy pants, and like i said in comment #50, plops himself in the car.
It's a gross generalization. Some girls don't care about weight or dress( and still-SHOCKER- get happily married), some are fashionable, care about health and weight. Some guys are total shlumps and lazy bums, still get married-maybe to a similar sort of personality, shlump wise ;), and some guys dress well and care about their health.
EVERYONE'S DIFFERENT!
Sorry for the typos but I think the message was pretty clear and all the individual points I made as well !
For the record I can't stand people who read a article and all they care about are the typos they found it !!!
Any volunteers to start this website?!!!
She was a machshaifah and very controlling.
You need to get your priorities straight and really be truthful to yourself and then hopefully it will all work out.
what I mean by 'colorful' is that you are not the standard black and white stereotype. You completed smicha, are working towards a profession, yet don't trim, and watch some TV (shh, but so do I)- hence you are colorful. I am a colroful sort of girl- I went through the lubav system- beis chana high school, seminary, shluchis, the whole shabang, but I am going to college, started my own profession, and watch some TV.
What is more on demand today? What are girls looking for
A chasiddeshe guy
or
Someone with a nice balance a well rounded guy which means he has a worldly touch, plus all the chasiddishe values as well
Which one???
But that's just a personal thing :)
You dated guys who wear ties? I have never considered it and neither have any of my friends
Wow! Ties... ad mosai!