Apr 8, 2010
Dating Is Making Me Broke

Shidduchim SOS: I know of some guys who won't fly for a date unless there are 2 or 3 girls lined up to go out with him, just in case the first girl doesn’t work out...

From the COLlive Inbox:

Hi, I'm a bochur who has gone on plenty of dates and is still looking for my bashert. I am not from Crown Heights, so many times I find myself having to fly out to meet the girl (as it is the custom that the boy goes to the girl).

To put it bluntly: The whole shidduch thing has burnt a hole in my pocket!

Before you jump to conclusions, let's put this in perspective:

* Taking off time from work - costs me $.
* Flight ticket (sometimes only 3 days in advance notice) - more $.
* Car rental (and for the guys who don't drive, taxis) - more $.
* As the "gentleman," I'm the one who needs to pay for the drinks on the date (and in NY they are far from cost price) - more $.
* Then there is parking (which can get pricy if the date goes long and well). Guess what, more $.
* And if I go out on more than one date (which usually happens for both of us so we give each other another chance), we’re talking about a good $700 out of my wallet to spend on a girl that I might not even marry.

I can understand if you are one of the lucky ones to find your zivug after one or two tries. But unfortunately there are many like me who are still looking for their better half after five or six tries.

So let's make a deal: If the guy is going to fly from out-of-town to go out with a girl, the cost should be split or shared.

This suggestion is not to exchange receipts or demand a refund if the date does not work out.

But for the most part it takes two to tango and at least the airfare and/or the rental car should be divided.

It's just fair for the guy not to have to shell out at least $400 from his pocket every time a prospective shidduch comes up.

(I even know of some who won't fly in unless there are 2 or 3 girls lined up, just in case the first girl doesn't work out. Just to note: This is a bad idea in my eyes).

So be a mentsch, potential-shver-in-law and gives the bochur a few bucks as participation in our expenses so we don't spend our entire life's earnings trying to find a wife.

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Opinions and Comments
1
Could I lol?
If not for the seriousness of the issue at hand, this could actually be a pretty funny article. Don't get me wrong - I'm not laughing AT it, it's just that it's written in such a good, humorous style.
Being that I'm a girl - I could on principle disagree, but that wouldn't be a very nice principle. Author has a point - and a well made one at that.
(4/8/2010 3:46:52 PM)
2
very nice
im glad to finally hear a guy who doesnt want to pay for everything. The girls just dont know, and think that he doesnt want her to chip in.
(4/8/2010 3:50:18 PM)
3
poor guy
I am an out of town girl who has dated for quite a bit too, and while I really feel for you, I do, I dont think its fair for a father in law to shell out money on his daughters behalf. Why should he spend money on a guy who wont even become his son in law?!
The girl should pay out of her own money, she is the one dating not her father!
Knowing what you are going thru, I hate it when boys spend a ton of money on me on dates. It makes me feel so guilty. I'm glad when they find meter parking or use coupons in a parking garage, or borrow a car instead of rent. Don't worry you dont look cheap if you do, the right girl will appreciate a money wise careful bochur.
That said the best solution is just to give in and move to CH. I know, I resisted it too for the first few years and then realized the hole burning in MY pocket was too large,(bus and plane tickets to NY) as well as fewer boys willing to date me. And I moved. I'm telling you its so much easier!!!
(Ironically the first date I got after moving to CH was an out of town boy that wanted me to come to him. I said no way! and he gave in and came to CH, and yes while I did feel bad for his expenses incurred, I don't feel I was wrong. I really strongly feel if you are seriously dating you belong in CH.)
(4/8/2010 3:54:57 PM)
4
well said
i can say i agree to it all but amen brother amen
(4/8/2010 3:57:01 PM)
5
Rich Guy
Um, doesn't the girl's side pay for the whole wedding?
(4/8/2010 3:59:02 PM)
6
u r right
i think u are right - unconventional - but then again, these are hard times & i think its a good idea - and i'm a girl!
(4/8/2010 4:01:47 PM)
7
boucher from Smicha P
Not from 770 reb dovid says: when their 90 all are alike any way
(4/8/2010 4:02:58 PM)
8
some more
and to stay in a hotel for the night another $400 and dinner another $50
(4/8/2010 4:03:45 PM)
9
advice from a veteran
I feel for you--I've flown around to roughly a dozen cities in 3 countries--it's a real shame there's no shidduch insurance to pay for that! You can try asking them to split the cost of the flight, but anything more (car, drink, etc) is really the guy's territory. Also, don't forget that some may consider NY to be the dating "hub", so they'll be reluctant to pay for an out-of-towner's ticket when they can go out with someone already here for free. One last piece of advice, since you're flying in and investing so much $$ in each shidduch, why not request (or get thru other ways) a picture of your potential date. While it's certainly no guarantee of success, at least that can help you avoid frustration one minute into the date! Hatzlacha!
(4/8/2010 4:04:50 PM)
10
be a real man
1)dont fly for a date unless you are 80% sure this is for you. otherwise wait a bit and everyone ends up in CH sometime during the year and you can go out then

2) you dont always have to rent a car. most people borrow a car or take a taxi it might be cheaper

3) if you take a taxi you dont need to park and if you drive there is parking all around the city and if its cold you can park at your hotel just pay for the meter.

4) most girls buy cheap drinks and some just take water which is free and since the guy is driving he can get a soda or water as well

total date taxi to the city and back with drinks under $100
(4/8/2010 4:07:10 PM)
11
LOL
Go girls
(4/8/2010 4:07:25 PM)
12
resident
its a investment
(4/8/2010 4:07:36 PM)
13
Cher
what about the 20 hours a girl puts in to prepare for the date. and today lots of girls drive for the date and will offer to pay for a drink but as long as the guy opens the car door:)
(4/8/2010 4:08:30 PM)
14
hmmmmmmmm
intresting!!! why are you posting this on colllive?? Post this is on a dating website!!!
(4/8/2010 4:09:22 PM)
15
definitely agree...
I always feel so terrible for the guy and all the time/money that's wasted when it doesn't work out (which it hasn't...yet). My parents always insist on paying for half of the bochur's ticket. I think its the decent thing to do.
(4/8/2010 4:11:20 PM)
16
like the line
it does take two to tango ;)
(4/8/2010 4:11:55 PM)
17
cheap
u kidding me?
(4/8/2010 4:14:05 PM)
18
A solution
In todays day and age there is no reason not to meet intially through phone dates or even a skype date. if after a few such dates things seem to be going well and there is an interest from both parties to continue then an investment of money is justified.

Darkoi shel ish lachzor acharei hoisha.
(4/8/2010 4:17:34 PM)
19
Which Perspective?
I hear where this guy is coming from, BUT]]]]is this a business transaction or is this men having to fulfill a mitzvah that has been placed on their shoulders?
(4/8/2010 4:17:53 PM)
20
I agree
I think dating should be done in houses just as it always used to be. My grandparents in the shtetel went to his cousins house to date, not to prime grill.
(4/8/2010 4:19:16 PM)
21
I AGREE
I happen to agree with you. I am married many years, but I remember when I was in the "dating game" my father offered to pay for the boys ticket if the shidduch didn't work out. Some took the money and some didn't, but the offer was there.
It is a lot of money and people should try to be understanding.
(4/8/2010 4:22:37 PM)
22
If you are this cheap while dating
How cheap would you be with your wife? Marriage costs money! Raising a family costs more money. Stay single, cheapskate.
(4/8/2010 4:28:04 PM)
23
#79
Looks like we're getting back into these op-eds...kewl....

I agree with your very well articulated concern and I'll explain why.

If shidduch dating were standard dating you would not be completely correct since a girl (in most cases) feels like she should be taken out and for her it show that the guy cares about her. Shidduch dating however is very different, I like to call the first date (maybe even the second one) a meeting. It is most definitely NOT a date (with the exception of cases where guy and girl know each other from elsewhere) since at the beginning of a shidduch it is two parties mutually agreeable to try something that they are not (in reality) emotionally attached to.

PS I can see that girls may not appreciate that sort of arrangement that much (since it would take away from the excitement of the date) but do you really want to fool yourself into thinking that this guy you never met really knows you $700 worth? Wouldn't most girls think that a guy who doesn't know her and want's to spend $700 just to meet her is creepy?
(4/8/2010 4:29:46 PM)
24
very interesting
as a bochur that might be in the same situation as you soon iy"H, i am scared that my money will run out and prevent me from going on shidduchim, this is a good point you bring out.
(4/8/2010 4:30:54 PM)
25
cheap guy
Yikes, hope this isnt the guy thats flying in to go out with my daughter. If it is, aint gonna work buddy, get a job in New York!!!
(4/8/2010 4:31:30 PM)
26
No.
i dont agree
(4/8/2010 4:33:31 PM)
27
blown away
wow. i remember an article someone once wrote about the bochurim who won't fly out unless there is more than one girl lined up. the comments on that one were staggering. all the bochurim started protesting the other side-how much of a cost is incurred, etc.
this is sheer genius! it makes so much sense! a bit unconventional, but aren't all the best ideas unconventional?
(4/8/2010 4:38:10 PM)
28
agreed
very well put, hope all those potential shvers understand you
(4/8/2010 4:48:17 PM)
29
i agree
even if it doesnt work out, the cost of all dates,airfare,taxi,parking etc.etc. should be split 50/50.
Its not a matter of 'well this is what the boys have been doing forever so i dont have to split all the costs with him', rather its a matter of mentchlichkeyt. comeon girls.. lets do the right thing.


may it be anyone in search of their zivug should find one b'shaah tovah, and live happily together for 180 healthy joyous years. moshiach now.
(4/8/2010 4:52:44 PM)
30
listen
ouch get a job in c.h. bro save your soul every other guy and girl does it for at least a year which i hope uve done but maybe its time to give it another go.
(4/8/2010 4:57:19 PM)
31
I agree!
Im a girl and I agree! why should boys have to pay so much for every potential shidduch. Besides these shadchanim dont even use their heads when they set two ppl up together. how many times does a boy or girl go out with someone who is completely out of their leaugue! its not right to set ppl up just bc he wears pants and she wears a skirt & u might make some cash! no one likes wasting their time, money or energy. So shadchanim use a bit of seichel when suggesting a name! and since this is the way hadchanim dates wrk... its only fear that both share in the expenses.
(4/8/2010 5:12:21 PM)
32
Why is noone commenting on the real issue here??
I am shocked that no one is commenting on the fact that he mentions that "I even know of some who won't fly in unless there are 2 or 3 girls lined up, just in case the first girl doesn't work out."

What is up with that??
is that really fair to girl number one?
dont you think he is dating her with the thought - "I cant commit now, I may miss out on something even better"

that seems pretty unfair to me...
(4/8/2010 5:13:07 PM)
33
sorry-No
One of the only perks of being a girl! yes- we dont have to pay and we dont have to plan the date. Sorry not going to pay half. Maybe guys should pay for the cost of new dating clothes and makeup?!
(4/8/2010 5:19:52 PM)
34
go back to the good ol system
pre arranged marriages, save everyone tons of money and heart ache!

(4/8/2010 5:24:32 PM)
35
to #18
dating is a lifelong investment, all of it must be done in person. i dont think any of the rebbeim would give the okay on a skype date, sorry.
(4/8/2010 5:33:54 PM)
36
Problem solved
It seems like the author might have at least 2 or 3 potential shidduchim from all the comments "I am a girl..." who think alike him...
Shidduchim in this website?
(4/8/2010 5:34:40 PM)
37
CALL ME OLD FASHIONED.......
I'm a guy and I really have to say that although I do see the authors point to an extent because dating is pricey, but at the same time I have dated many girls from out of town and never spent as much as he claims. Also, there is something nice about being the one to take care of things. I'm not saying you should refuse if a girl offers to pay (within reason), but dating is an investment that will soon pay off and will be worth every penny. I recently got married and every penny I paid for any date with any girl was just a saving's account for my lovely wife.
(4/8/2010 5:35:30 PM)
38
thats the down side
living and working out of CH has lots of great benefits, whether it be that you live near family, make good money, or are going to a great school, but yeah, not everything can be perfect...
why do you think so many shidduch-age people MOVE to CH, the great weather, beautiful apartments, or high paying jobs? not likely...
that is the consequence.
(4/8/2010 5:50:48 PM)
39
to number 33
maybe you should consider wearing your clothes more than once? or perhaps you go out with some many people that your clothes get worn out from all that dating, and you really do need some new clothing...either way, you aren't being fair.

The aibeshter didn't create females thinking that "ahhh so the maalos of being a woman are that they'll have the extra special mitzvah of lighting shabbos candles, making kugels and not having to pay for dates!" women are no more entitled than men in having to pay.

please get real.
(4/8/2010 5:59:32 PM)
40
how much did your last vacation cost you?
a guy who is looking to save money on dating a girl, will be looking to save his money throughout the entire marriage. why should i surprise her with a first class ticket, when i can buy one for the economy fare? my advice to the writer, is start to think big. go get a real job. and then you won't have to be writing articles like this.
(4/8/2010 6:03:58 PM)
41
wait till your married
if you think going out is getting you broke,wait till you get married!!!
(4/8/2010 6:04:29 PM)
42
Zevi S
I think we should ban people from dating outside their cities, or, instead of drinking at high end bars, go to a place like the Kretchma.
(4/8/2010 6:07:53 PM)
43
the wave of the future
www.shidduchvision.org
(4/8/2010 6:19:40 PM)
44
to number 5
to the point! i like it!
its true the girls side pays for the wedding
(4/8/2010 6:20:14 PM)
45
Phone dating
Im an out of towner, and ive dated a few times myself, and this guy has to think more in to his dates whether he should fly in for somone or not, the first thing to do if you are going to fly in for a date is, you have to see a picture of who you would go in to meet, and second thing is to have at least 1 phone conversating with the girl before you do anything if your going to fly in to meet with someone, and if the conversation works out good, than you would have a second phone conversation, and if it works out than, than you would have to work out with the shadchan about speaking to the girl twice a week for a few weeks, if the girl has an intrest, and than you can deside whether you guys have anything in common so it can be more worth while to fly and meet with someone that might work out for you, and than if it works out when you guys go out 1 or 2 times than you can have her maybe fly to you, and split the cost on her flying out to you..
i think this would work alot better, if people work this way..
(4/8/2010 6:31:44 PM)
46
Dating is Not a Game...
Take a break. Spend some time with a married mentor/someone who knows you, and who you look up to, to better know yourself. ALSO, work and consult with a shadchan/matchmaker to help guide you along - it's not a good idea to be able to make sense out of everything all by yourself, clouded by your emotions and yetzer hara. Discover what core values/goals you want for your FUTURE home. Don't worry about where you are NOW in your life, as ALL of that will change as you create a new entity between you, your basheret, and Hashem. Who do you want to be, and what should you be seeking in the qualities you want in the future mother of your children? Again, this is not a game - you are seeking mother-of-your-children qualities. Why else would you be dating? Anyway, if you evaluate and know your ideal core values for your ideal future family, then you can use them to help you more clearly recognize these CORE/FUNDAMENTAL qualities in your basheret and assure you in making your commitment. The rest is just frivolous and fleeting male-female idiosyncrasies and communication style differences to work on with your basheret DURING marriage....like you have to do in ALL relationships. Even then, you work through the outer differences while the shared, big-picture core values keep you on track/course/focus. Like Am Yisroel, needing 49 days of refinement before being ready to receive the Torah, you need to do some personal refinement to properly recognize, receive, and commit to your basheret. Even then, no one is ever exactly, perfectly ready - there is always work to be done for improvement/elevation. There's never a perfect package - everything comes with both "good" and "bad". You just need to be purpose-driven and make a commitment, my friend. "The Committed Life" is a book by Rebbetzin Esther Jungreis that changed my life and where I got many of these ideas - it helped me to evaluate what I was looking for in my basheret - and I'm male. Hatzlacha and wishing a BIG l'chaim for you, soon, G-d willing!
(4/8/2010 6:31:53 PM)
47
funny
This OP is really funny
Your spouse is going to cost you millions and you are complaining for 700 box?
Imagine that you got married last year,now think, how much money did you save now that you are still single?

But ,it looks that you are not getting maried b/c you are affraid about your future expenses
(4/8/2010 6:40:16 PM)
48
great article
i personally love this. Thats what makes shidduchim something you can laugh at after you finally get married. Some things in life just have to be done, and you can either do it with a smile as you shell out those dollars, or be a grouch and make your date feel like she's wasting your money when you order water because its "cheaper".
girls, and guys- you spend money on different things, shouldnt the girl be complaining that its too expensive to pay for the majority of the wedding? nevertheless, they do it. (unless an arrangement is worked out prior to it)

anyways just wanted to say, nicely written article, im lovin the sense of humor. and if you and I end up going out sometime, please dont order water.

:)
(4/8/2010 6:41:03 PM)
49
To #20
1. In those days, people weren't at ALL caring of their private dates as people are nowadays.
2. If a guy wanted to keep his cash rather than spend it on risky shidduchim, he would'nt go to Prime Grill.
(4/8/2010 6:52:38 PM)
50
I have a better Idea:
I agree that it's not fair that the boys should shell out all the money for dates. I believe most girls are ok with making changes so the system can work better..

"In exchange" boys should also make some changes ie consider going out with a girl who is say older or doesnt reach the exact physical specs as you would like and give more girls a fair chance.

Like you said "It takes two to tango" in the dating world...things have got to change, so give a little and get a little...

Other than that, I agree with whoever mentioned skype, video chat, do that a couple of times before you hop on a plane or bus.

-single gal in ch
(4/8/2010 6:54:14 PM)
51
# 46 in genius]
amazing
(4/8/2010 6:58:34 PM)
52
to 40
Most bochurim cannot get a 'real' job.
(4/8/2010 7:01:42 PM)
53
very good point
i totally agree with the author.
I would like to clarify, for those who think he is cheap, that my impression is that he is not complaining that he spent once 700$ for a date, but that it is happening again and again and again. That's where the rpoblem is. And still, this bochur works, so he is lucky. I remember my brother, learning in 770, telling me how he doesn't understand why bochurim, who clearly don't work, as they are lamdanim, have to pay good money for each date, money that they don't have. While the girls works, gets a great pay to not know what to do with it, lives at home or has minor expanses, and still doesn't have any share whatsoever in the date. And please, don't mention the make-up and clothes, because you get to use it on tons of other occasions...
I think a guy has the right to ask that half his travel expanses will be paid.
However, someone suggested phone/internet dating before actually meeting the girl, and I think it's completely WRONG. There is nothing like meeting a person face to face, as unpleasant as it may sometimes unfortunately be.
(4/8/2010 7:23:37 PM)
54
We wouldn't be here with such an attitude
Yackov Avinu worked 7 years for his first wife(he didn't love) another 7 years for the next. 700$ is maybe 1-2 weeks wages for a low income earner.
I would symphasize more with you if you were not earning anything just learning.
And to conclude Yackov avinu didn't even come with any possesions, money, his own shirt on his back he got it from a dead drown man(look in the midrash) he had to work 14 years for the wife he loved Rochel(which nowadays would translate into approximatly 700 grand for 14 years work. which is about 1000 times your average shiduch expenses which you say is $700.
(4/8/2010 8:09:06 PM)
55
tO#1 AND #2
i THINK YOU SHOULD GO FOR EACH OTHER. . LOOKS LIKE A GOOD SHIDUCH!!!!
(4/8/2010 8:25:48 PM)
56
im a girl
im a girl so really i shoud not be paying for my dates but i do and it is to much so i think we should make a gamach
(4/8/2010 8:32:29 PM)
57
wow!!!! so many comments!!!
its unbelievable to c how everyones minds work!!!
(4/8/2010 8:44:44 PM)
58
A girl who agrees
I'm a girl and I actually agree with him. I have not started dating yet and will imy"h begin soon but this guy has a point. I don't understand why guys have to pay so much money to go out. I read all the comments thus far, some were ridiculous, some were attacking, and some were close-minded (this is what is done women: we like it men: suck it up and be a man) and some were actually intellectual and enlightening. I dont like the picture or skype ideas, but I did like the money saver sensitive ideas. You dont have to be ostentatious and rent a fiery red 2010 car and pay 8$ for a soda. (unless this is the type of person you are and this is what the girl cares about) see I think what we are all skipping over is there are people who are more sensitive to the way money goes and some people less. Dont yell at this guy get a job, because he probably does. If you want him to blow you away tell the shadchan if you dont tell the shadchan. This young man has a good point and I agree that it is very unconventional yet good things can come as a surprise many times.
(4/8/2010 10:52:52 PM)
59
pays for the wedding
no such thing anymore the girl pays for the wedding -
most times whoever has more money pays for the wedding or its split 50/50 and een if you go to the old style where the guys pays for music pictures and so on its just about 50/50 as well
(4/8/2010 11:38:59 PM)
60
Dating Is Making Me Broke
That's what's good about the Internet (and telephone). You
can find out if there's a good chance before you incur such expenses.
(4/8/2010 11:49:42 PM)
61
Get Serious
At the cost of sounding rude, you ought to really give thought to moving to Crown Hts. You would of course move for a promising job opportunity and this is more important, by far. Also, the clock is ticking, perhaps not as much as her's, but ticking nevertheless. Before you know it, it is another Pesach another Tishrei, nothing happens in the summer etc.

I am out of town, and told my daughters that they really have no choice, it is just the way it is.

If your being out-of-town is shlichus, this is MORE IMPORTANT THAN SHLICHUS at this time in your life. If it is business, well if you are earning big bucks, money is not a problem, and you hop on a plane. It sounds like money is indeed a problem, so it is not such a great job, and you could find something in NY, even if it means sharing an apartment - all the out-of-town girls share apartments.

My daughter met someone who came to her out-of-town, but it was understood that if the date went anywhere, she would fly in to NY for a second date. (It didn't).

Best wishes.
(4/9/2010 12:06:30 AM)
62
Rabbi M.H.Sufrin
It is time that all this nonesense ceased. Where does the expression dating come from. There was a time when the boy found out as much as possible about the girl and then met just to make sure that the chemistry was right,and that was it. To-day you want three girls lined up just in case. In other words you really do not have the intention to get engaged. Where is your faith in HaSh-em who is mezaveg zivugim ? How ever long you "date" you cannot really know the girl until you are married for some time. So pray to HaSh-em, get the brochoh from the Rebbe and then get on with it. There are unfortunately more divorces to0day than ever before. Priorities are all wrong. Wish you all
BROCHOH VEHATZLOCHOH
(4/9/2010 1:03:59 AM)
63
Number79 to 36
To #36

I can tell you from experience, good thinking. There was an article here (still up on the sidebar) last year........... and now we're married.

-------------

Editors Note: Please be in touch, we would love to hear from you. editor@collive.com
(4/9/2010 1:05:52 AM)
64
#0571
why doesn't #3 and the author of the article go out
they seem to have a strong common ground that is very fundamental, and of course although i dont know either ofthem personally the guy wears pants and te girl a skirt
(4/9/2010 1:07:58 AM)
65
Re: 36
That comment shreeks pessimistic high maintanence I'm glad I don't have to date her. Okay, sorry that was harsh but:
a) I'm u can find some other "perks" to being a girl then the fact that a stranger (who in shidduchim case might not want to) buys u a drink.
b) You don't HAVE to buy a new dating dress each time and if u do (cause you can) you're not going to throw it out after.
c) the cost of the amount of make up u use probably comes out to .75 cents at most
(4/9/2010 1:20:53 AM)
66
Dating is NOT marriage!
I see many ppl calling the author "cheep" or "if you don't want to spend hundreds on a stranger you won't want spen money on your wife" ....
Dating is NOT marriage and also not as closely related as people think. Once you're on the second or third date they have a point but not for the first.
(4/9/2010 1:33:34 AM)
67
hang in there mate!
I feel for you but there is no way that the girls side paying will work out, because her dad won't wanna pay since the wedding is gonna cost him an arm n' a leg, and asking the girl to chip in is straight out emasculating and kind of a buzz kill,
Instead we need to talk about moving to ch or a dating car gmach in ch.
And #33 are you for real?! Do you need new clothes for every date?! What would you be wearing if you were not dating?? And are you that bad looking that you need 700$ worth of makeup?? If so... Then with a combo of that and your attitude.... Good luck
(4/9/2010 1:36:39 AM)
68
Such is life buddy...
Wake up and smell the rosses...

I do like #18. Great idea!
(4/9/2010 1:42:06 AM)
69
NUMBER 18 IS SO RIGHT
I saw that in Lakewood certain Shadchonim have now organised for young men and women to talk and see each other in private houses through special video screens if they live in different cities. Certainly, this is a good alternative to the costs involved in travelling to meet a prospective match. At least this way you know before you travel if you both are interested in each other and if there is a good chance of a successful shidduch occuring. Just a thought.
(4/9/2010 1:51:27 AM)
70
Makes sense!!
Actually, I have a daughter of 27, what youre writing is making so much sense: Personally, we would definitely agree to pay half towards tickets etc. . its only right and fair. . its a shame COL does'nt have 'facilities' to exchange email addresses, who knows , . . we could have both made enquiries to see if its an idea and then something may have come from this!! What a way to make a Shidduch!
If only . . .
(4/9/2010 2:11:51 AM)
71
Comment
I dont understand. Wouldnt someone rather get married than get bankrupt? I would do anything just to get married.
(4/9/2010 2:11:54 AM)
72
crown heighster
LIKE SOMEONE SAID BEFORE THE PROBLEM IS WITH THE SHADCHUNIM THEY JUST SEND OUT A BOY AND GIRL WITH OUT DOING ANY HOMEWORK ITS JUST A NUMBER GAME FOR THE SHADCHUNIM THEY KEEP SENDIND THEM OUT EVENTUALLY SOMEONE WILL GET ENGAGED AND THEN THEY WILL MAKE MONEY.ITS ABOUT MONET .UNFORTUNALLY BECAUSE OF THIS THERE HAVE BEEN BROKEN ENGAGEMENTS . FIRE THE SHADCHUNIM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
(4/9/2010 2:14:06 AM)
73
going broke
Everybody's worried about the cost of dating. How about the cost of a wedding (both sides) and setting them up in an apt? that's killing me!
(4/9/2010 2:28:30 AM)
74
married a number of years
Yes, I'm a girl, but I come from a family made up of girls AND boys. Yes, my brothers have spent quite a bit on dating, but so have I and my sisters. There have been times where the boy (okay, his mother) says that he has just missed too much work, please come to him and us girls do. Now, you can say that we had the choice and didn't have to go to the boy, except that we know how they feel, we are in the same boat so we compromise.
My issue with most of these comments if how so many of you seem willing to compromise when it comes to halachah and minhagim - dating through computers, skype, phone calls, etc... was all not acceptable then and should not be now either. Starting off in the wrong derech only leads to other wrongs taking place...
(4/9/2010 2:39:11 AM)
75
i agree but for a different reason
The writer makes some very valid points. I also was living outside of CH when I was dating and found that a trip to NY plus a few dates over a weekend was costing me close to $1000.
I am a little bit of an old schooler and believe that the cost of dates should be the guys responsibility. However, I believe today, there is a bad trend taking place within the dating circles.
When a guy agrees to date a girl, he has a large investment going into it and takes his decision seriously. He does not want to just say "yes, I'll date her" unless he can see a glimmer of hope that this might be "the one". He will make sure that he has done research, possibly seen a picture of her and will want to talk to her on the phone at least once before he buys a ticket and plans a trip. Then he will want to spend the right amount of time with her before he gives up and decides that this is not going to work.
With a girl, it is quite different. There is hardly any investment and therefore the attitude going into the date is quite different also.
I am not saying that all girls do this, but there are many who will date without any research done beforehand. They are much more ready to say "yes to meeting the guy for the first time without really looking into it or without really caring. "They walk in and out of a date without having spent a dime. As a result, they don't feel like they need to put in the effort of pursuing the shidduch and can easily say "no, he's not the right one". Next week, another guy will come along to take her out and she will go through the same thing. They love to get dressed up and be taken out in a rented car, but the moment they have to put thought into it, it's an easy no.
I know that many girls don't do this and get more emotionally involved in dates, but I am only trying to bring out one point here and that is that when there is no investment put into a potential shidduch, it is more likely to be a careless date that will lead to nothing and possibly cost someone else a lot of unnecessarily spent yiddishe gelt.
(4/9/2010 2:46:45 AM)
76
wow.
Lots of comments here, some are really rediculious. As a girl, I've flown twice to meet a guy, not only in ch. sometimes these things can be shared and sometimes not. take the subway. be a cheap dater, no biggie. go to starbuks and talk, walk around, sodas in the park. its not about WHAT YOU DO, ITS WHO YOUR DOING IT WITH. if you feel she has potential, dont be as cheap. girls are not dumb we all get the economy issues. inlaws should not be paying potential soninlaws to fly. ask your own parents, its their investment too. most importantly stay positive, iyh hashem will send you your bashert asap!
(4/9/2010 2:49:39 AM)
77
70 & 67
70: They do have "facilities' to exchange email addresses" just leave you email address in your comment....

67: that was funny..(the 2nd half)
(4/9/2010 3:28:21 AM)
78
to 54
hehe Yaakov Avinu..if we're comparing to that maybe he should just get a camel instead of a car and get water from the well so he'll have no $ problems...
(4/9/2010 3:32:04 AM)
79
Correction to 65
That was addressed to High Maintenance #33 (not you 36)
(4/9/2010 3:37:58 AM)
80
LA girl
i dont think u need to live in ny just to get married!
why is that a right thing to say???????
(4/9/2010 3:44:30 AM)
81
rabbi
the whole thing is one big business
(4/9/2010 4:15:18 AM)
82
cool
I totally agree with the author.
it also depends on the type of girl your are. Im the type of girl to get things done on my own and think that when the boy opens the door for the girl, its soooo dorky. get a life, its real like here , your an adult and take care of yourself!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
(4/9/2010 4:15:38 AM)
83
thats why your not married
(4/9/2010 4:43:10 AM)
84
re 67
DATING GMACH- GREAT IDEA!
(4/9/2010 4:44:47 AM)
85
WE PAY THE WEEDINGGGG
at the end i think ur wife side will pay more that all the shiduchim u had........
(4/9/2010 4:53:53 AM)
86
whaat?
To #63, your name is number79... let me guess, you got married to comment 31?? If you did, that is amazing. See, a shidduch was made here. If I may ask, how did it happen? I'm a single girl, I could use some tips.
(4/9/2010 5:03:19 AM)
87
i just dont date
I am 24 and never really dated.. who needs the headache ?
(4/9/2010 5:04:02 AM)
88
mother of out of town bochurim
We spent many thousands of dollars during the dating stages. Girls who want a working boy, or career oriented one ( and many girls do), can't expect the boy to pick up and move to Crown Heights for a year just to date. The author is correct, in that when my sons flew to cities where we did not know anyone, we were expected to house, feed and provide transportation for our sons, without ANY help from the girl's side. Even when they went to Corwn Heights, we had to find housing (not so simple if yo don't have family/friends there) and rent a car. All while missing work, and missing wages. I don't know the solution, but I wish I knew in advance that by the time of the engagement, we have already spent $10,000 on dating, shadchan gelt, kallah gift, travel to Ohel, L'Chaim (our kallahs' families didn't even help cover that expense).
(4/9/2010 5:07:12 AM)
89
meeting shidduchim sosts
rabbonim have got to start issung guidelines on this.

its absurd that bochurim and de facto their parents have to fork out endlessly for speculative shidduchim. whats the difference between that and gambling on a roulette wheel.

even worse..many girls apparently are not remotely interetsed in the shidduchim their parents have lined up for them and just curious so they go along with the whoe chardade which in itself is gnaivas daas. the halcah is clear.. one is not permitted to go into a store and ask how much is this or that when you have no intention of buying.

oh jonny jonny jonny jonny why do you come to the market...you dont buy, you dont sell, all you do is smell. sounds familiar folks......

suggestion lets both sides share the costs airline tickets et al them see how fast they agree to meet.
(4/9/2010 5:08:50 AM)
90
SKYPE IT
i got it!!!!!!!!!!!!!

SKYPE SHIDDUCHIM....YOU CAN EVEN TURN OFF THE SCREEN INSTANTLY IF YOUR NOT COMPATIBLE..
(4/9/2010 5:12:16 AM)
91
To # 37 and 83
37, I agree with you completely, you sound like your a great husband, as for #83, obviously guys know we can take care of ourselves, it's just a show of being a gentleman, I personally think it says a lot about a guy who takes the time to open doors.
(4/9/2010 5:13:39 AM)
92
to author
would you like to become alittle more broke and be the 1st guy to come out and meet me.......coz im broke from going out meeting guys.......... its very often teh other way round too at least ur doing the right thing.....
(4/9/2010 5:25:01 AM)
93
Some very good points...
First of all: www.shidduchvision.org.
A few other good points have been raised, I think that all (mature) bochrim and girls pay quite enough on dates, if not with money then on an emotional level, so that is not where the problem is. I think the people setting up the date should have more invested in them. Here are people who stand to gain $1000 if it works out, but have nothing to lose if it does not! There is nothing quite as frustrating as being set up with someone who is completely not shaiach.
Therefore I propose that a shadchin should be made to dish out $100 worth of expenses for every shiddich they set up. This will be an excellent incentive for them to put some thought into their work. Isn’t that why we pay so much in shadchonus gelt?!
I also think we should institute mandatory (like dor yesharim) classes for both singles (how to date 101) [understandably they would have to be separate classes for bochrim and girls, but they should at least be taught be the same instructor] and couples (how to treat your husband/wife 101). I think Mrs. Shaffer did some things like that…
(4/9/2010 5:39:36 AM)
94
I think...
i think the smoking issue should be addressed first.
(4/9/2010 5:44:40 AM)
95
To Number 77
I can't leave my email address on COL. . it has my surname on it!! and then the world will know just who I am!!
On second thoughts, maybe I should. . who knows, I may just be bombarded with suggestions . . . as I said, "if only . . "
but thanks for the advice anyway. , ,
(4/9/2010 5:54:24 AM)
96
To 86
Yup....since you're so smart you can figure out how to find out more....
(4/9/2010 6:00:50 AM)
97
WHy cant u stay in NY
If your looking for your marriage partner and most of the girls happen to be in CH...why don't u stay in Ch for a couple of years, like alot of ppl do?
Just constructive criticism here!! ;)
(4/9/2010 6:04:22 AM)
98
cheapo
what about the families that want the boy to come to to meet their daughters first in their respective cities and offer to pay for half the cost of the ticket................and then never do so............... this is so not mentchlach.......... keep your promises..............
(4/9/2010 6:15:48 AM)
99
to #95
open a new account with a name like #95sos@gmail.com
or what ever you want. then no one will know who you are.
and also, dont think lowly of yourself. who ever you are, G-D created you with your unique qualities, and as i like to say "every pot has a cover" and so does yours!
and about this whole issue... i agree with the author!
i am a girl, and i personally feel uncomfortable when i c a guy is spending so much money on me. it puts extra pressure, and you're not thinking about what is ikkar!
just come on time, be polite, and no one cares so much about the car.( some times you work harder to impress the girl, then the girl needs to be impressed)
be a bit more simple, borrow a car (just make sure its nice and clean) and park by a meter.
also, about having more than one dates awaiting u when u fly from out of town, i think only the parents should know that there is another person waiting. if they boy/girl knows, they will feel like they have to c all of them, cuz what if the other was better... this way only if the first doesnt work out then they tell the guy/girl that they have another suggestion.
and about girls buying stuff...i think its true girls spend some $ on clothes and makeup, but it doesnt go to waste, u can always wear it again.
#79 every one knows who u r... it kinda went public, and ppl figured it out... but good for u! btw, u have a gr8 voice.

bottom line is, you need to have bitachon, consult your mashpia through out the whole time. and IYH, every one will find the right one, at the right time!!
#93 i agree about the classes thing, we can all use extra tips.
HATZLACHA TO YOU ALL!

(4/9/2010 6:44:07 AM)
100
Let Guy pay ticket for girl....
Let the guy pay for the plane for the girl to fly from to New York to his out of town city. Maybe this will reduce expenses such as food, car rental, etc.....
(4/9/2010 6:48:02 AM)
101
los angeles
stop dating as a profession. stay focused and marry. save the money for the rent. you will need it.
(4/9/2010 6:54:14 AM)
102
makes sense
but this is society, nothings gonna change it, even logic cant.
(4/9/2010 7:42:25 AM)
103
I think we can make a Shidduch right here!
#58 maybe you should just go for the guy whos the author of this article???
(4/9/2010 7:52:04 AM)
104
lisen
lisen i think we should just have a bighall and were every body can meet once in a month and see date from there
(4/9/2010 8:41:51 AM)
105
to #53
dating on skype, internet ,phone etc...is not INSTEAD of meeting the person face to face it's something you should do before you hop on the plane.
(4/9/2010 8:59:01 AM)
106
Girl's Perspective
Guys,
Please don't feel you have to impress us with the money you don't have. Park on the street, its less pressure for us. We don't mind circling for half an hour, we don't have any time we have to get to the destination. Also you don't have to take us to ritzy hotels where water costs $8. We don't mind starbucks or other casual non-conventional dating spots.
(4/9/2010 9:15:31 AM)
107
Shadchan
Okay Ich geit machin dee shiduch....
#58 please post your name, phone#, email, skirt size, and eye color...
I personally know the author and I'll definately pass it on!
(4/9/2010 9:18:28 AM)
108
to #5
Must say I agree!
If you want to split the dating money, why not split the cost of the wedding as well? Do you know how much more that costs? Cant even compare!
(4/9/2010 9:23:36 AM)
109
Idea
I have been suggesting for months to host a "singles event" One night of fun (not in the wrong ways) with many options to choose from. I'm just about sure for all those "cheap" guys this would be a good idea.

I'm offering to sponsor the event with minimum to no door fee.

I welcome ideas and suggestions at: parksloperetail@yahoo.com
(4/9/2010 9:35:56 AM)
110
cheapstake?????????
if some dirt rich sicko or miserly snob thinks this is unreasonable, dont marry into that family for the sake of a happy marriage.
(4/9/2010 9:55:01 AM)
111
Hey no he's mine! ATTN Author:
I am number 3 and someone suggested that the author and I go out, but then number 103 suggested that the author and number 58 go out. Well number 58 wait in line! I commented first! So I get first dibs.

No seriously, it does sound like the author and I have some common ground and I am looking for an out of towner as well, so is there anyway to contact him? Not directly of course that would be too freaky but maybe the author can contact a reputable shadchan and then post the shadchan's name so people who are interested can contact the shadchan about him? Of course the shadchan has every right to demand an interview with any potential people who contact her before releasing the boys name so as to weed out any pranksters. But I really feel this is a tachlisdik way to actually accomplish something rather than just sit around and gripe.

ATTN: AUTHOR!
Author if you are reading this please contact a shadchan you trust, post her name and get your ball rolling! However you will have to pay for your own plane ticket as I moved to CH and pay enough in rent and CH living expenses to justify you paying your way here! However you dont need to rent a car or pay parking, I would be just fine with taking the subway to meet you somewhere in Manhatten and walk around a park. Oh and I can bring my own drink.
(4/9/2010 9:58:24 AM)
112
lovely......
i never saw so many people arguing over an article, and to make this worse, GIRLS that are desperate obviously, fighting over a guy who wrote this stupid article. there is definitly something wrong with the shidduch scene as they say, and its because of people like YOU who make a scene online, begging the author to go out with you. geez. you know they have dating sites for sad cases like that.
PLEASE PLEASE get off COL and go on sawyouatsinai.com

ps. btw, author...number 3 is a DEFINITE catch, i mean come on! she said shed even bring her own drink! cant get better than that...
(4/9/2010 10:36:25 AM)
113
to #47
The bochur is saying its $700 for dating 1 girl . If he needs to date a few girls till he finds the right one then that's alot of money. My friend dated an out of town girl and it cost him $400 dollars for the airline ticket. He stayed for a week to make it worthwhile and get in at least 3 dates.
He had the cost of one weeks car rental, gas, the cost of each of the dates....luckily he was able to stay by a friends house...but some bochurim come to a city where they need a hotel to stay at. All in all the dates with this girl didn't work out and my friend had spent about $1,000.
Now imagine if you have to do that for another few out of town girls. The Bochur who wrote this article has a legitimate concern and I'm glad there's this forum for him to discuss it.
(4/9/2010 10:43:53 AM)
114
a married woman in AZ..
To the writer of the aricle: Welcome to the world! It ain't an easy place. No one said it would be easy or cheap to meet your bashert. I agree with #17, #22,, #25, #40 and others that share the same sentiments. If this guy is cheap at this early stage of the game....what can a future wife expect down the line! One has to be frugal, yet smart. Use what's available...like Skype, Facebook, Email and other means to exchange words and photos, to narrow your chances for your date adventure to be a positive experience. Being a woman, AND being the mother of girls, I believe that a man must pay for a date from beginning to end. Period. You want a quality woman.....you pay. We have babies, YOU pay for dinner and drinks. lol. Good luck!! May you meet your bashert very soon.
(4/9/2010 10:45:37 AM)
115
life has more chalanges than that
if you really want you'll find a way so you can aford it but don't plan 3 shiduch dates at once!!!!!!!!!
(4/9/2010 11:10:55 AM)
116
I might be old fashioned but.......
This will probaly get the fireworks really going.... but here goes...Either you want to live in the Lubavitch which to a large extent was no different then any other Chassidhe Kreis... Just ask how your parents... I am talking in the 50's 60's 70's and even 80's.. how they got married...I was aq Bochur in 770 Reb Shloime Zarchi Reb Itche Springer ukedimeh spoke either to you directly if you were from out of town or to your parents... Mer Veinker.. you were et vos a Chasidshe Bochur.. ok if you werent the biggest learner You ran to the Rebbes Mincha marriv Farbrebgen etc... you listened to your parents meaning YOU felt in your Blood that your parents KNOWS whats good for YOU their Child that they Gehodevet for 20 odd years and you went out .. What was out? Beleive it or not the airport lounge ... a hotel lobby etc... Yes Yes Yes I know expenses went up considerably since then..... but the Prime Grill? Restaurants? other entertainments.????Look I know to alot of people.. even to write Satmar in the same sentence as Lubavitch... is too put it mildly is a no-no... but for a moment indulge me they go for a Be"show... once .. twice .. und men brect a teller... Yes I know we are not them... but still its the common thread..... OF TRUSTING IN YOUR PARENTS.... FAMILIES .. AND with Hashems Help the vast majority are successfull and happy.... and now to the FIREWORKS... DEAR NEW GENERATION of Lubavitchers... you cant have it both ways ... you cant have your cake and eat it too... af Mameh Loshen .. Men Ken Nit Tansen af zvei Chasonos.... Either you live as your parents did Grandparents did.... and beleive me they had plenty of Nesyoines then as well.... as the well know vort that it was said a Kunst zein a Chossid In Lubavitch... oder a kleine shtetel... Zei A Chosid in PETERSBURG!!!... Every generation had its difficulties... its Modernity... its Nerds... But Look at your own families try to take in the Chinuch you are getting In Toimche Tmimmim... where EVERY NESHOMAH THAT LEARNS THERE WAS PICKED BY THE REBBE RASHAB!!!!! Oholei Torah ... Chinuch al pee tahras Hakoidesh.... Bais Rivkah Bnos Menachem... they are teaching the same Torah and Chassidus your forebearers came from...and your life will be easier.... so be NACHSHON BEN AMINDOV!!!!!! start a new {old} trend go back to the old ways.......OR if you want to be PART OF AMERICA...... [even though the Frideker Rebbe said America is Nisht Andresh.. America is no different then Europe.... and WE as Chassidim beleive with our full hearts that the Rebbes words are for always!... Then go out as Chassidhe Kinder that you are.... Leig avek af Dem Rebbes Pleitzehs... Put it on the Rebbes Holy Shoulders.... and all will be we... Chas Vesholom.. Farkert the opposite You want to be part of the AMERICAN WAY OF LIFE ... THEN YOU MUST PAY THE PRICE... AND PAY BEGASHMIOUS AND PAY BERUCHNIOUS..... I sincerely wish everyone that their Shiduchim should go smoothly... and with Mazel... with Brochos from Hashem and the Rebbe.....
(4/9/2010 11:32:43 AM)
117
disgusted
you're lucky you're even getting offers, with such a sick attitude!!!! there are people out there who cant even find one shidduch, dont complain abt your issues on the whole line of girls you have waiting for you!!
(4/9/2010 11:47:09 AM)
118
To 95
..I was gonna tell the lady about the email idea so good that you told her..hey, it worked for me and it's useful in many situations.

Also, you and others were saying that you're okay with guys not spending a lot on you and that they can save money. To me it sounds like most of the expenses will still be there like the ticket, taking off work and (most people will still need) the car (+gas & coverage etc). Also, if the guy is not a cheap guy he will not feel comfortable ruining a good night looking for parking. The only problem is that he's having his nice evening with a stranger whom he might never meet again.

My personal opinion is that in most cases no one should fly or put in that much investment into just meeting someone. That's why I strongly believe that there needs to be more opportunities for meeting in a nice, relaxing and enjoyable Social setting. I'm going to contact #109 after shabbos and leaving my email maybe we'll get something rolling.

last but not least..it's not a secret but I wouldn't say it's public either thanks for keeping it that way...

#79

ls11213@yahoo.com
(4/9/2010 11:56:07 AM)
119
To Number 111
You are hilarious!!!!!
good comeback
(4/9/2010 1:10:07 PM)
120
...
bachurim should buy a lottery ticket and hope for the best......
(4/10/2010 12:31:54 AM)
121
#65
"c) the cost of the amount of make up u use probably comes out to .75 cents at most " - quoted by #65

i personally dont agree with the whole plastering on make-up, but how dare one think that make-up must be so cheap. make-up could be up to $80-$100 for one small eye-shaddow. dont start me on the make-up artist...... and dont say to buy cheap ones. its as bad as applying paint to your face.
(4/10/2010 12:37:39 AM)
122
ATT ALL
why dont we all pray that moshiach should come right now and the dates will be held in isreal.
(4/10/2010 12:40:42 AM)
123
a little something for thought !
we should stop talking such shtusim, money comes and goes but marriage is for life!!!!!
(4/10/2010 12:42:42 AM)
124
Pro skype
Arranging a meeting on skype before dating is a great idea. I am also in favour of classes. Also, to avoid the whole out-of-town vs Crown Heights Ir Hakodesh issue, don't even consider Crown Heights unitl you are absolutely positive there is nothing in your home town/city/country.
(4/10/2010 3:27:26 AM)
125
It get's me frustrated...
I've always been of the mind that girls should pay towards dates, or even for dates, so I'm def with the author on that one - and I'm a girl :)

However, I love how some of you are saying that if we want to get married, we should just move to CH for a couple of years....as if some of us don't already have a lives in other countries - as if we can just pick up and leave. Just drop out of school, or leave our jobs, our commitments, e.t.c.

I've seen it happen time and time again, after a couple of 'unsuccessful' years of mild dating whilst living out of the U.S./(NY in particular). Finally people feel they have to give in and go live in a dingy basement in CH, and they find some random job that just about keeps them busy, not always happy, just busy and in the 'area'.

I am adamantly against this being the norm.

It doesn't make sense for people who are living happy, stable lives, to have to disrupt and give it all up, especially but not exclusively if they have a career.

I'm all for marriage, and I know dating doesn't always come easy, but you can't really expect everyone to just pick up and come to CH, we can make it work if we want to!
We just have to be prepared to give a little, and use opportunities, like when people are already flying in to NY for weddings or Chof Beis, or Tishrei, or vacation....

That's all for now :)
(4/10/2010 12:55:37 PM)
126
woah 112
anger management anyone?
(4/10/2010 2:12:01 PM)
127
and now i'm married
my dear husband an out of towner took me on dates using the good old fashion new york metro no parking no renting cars no traffic ..... sensibility /creativity and matched made in heaven
(4/10/2010 2:20:45 PM)
128
What ever
Lol I always wanted to be the last comment!
I definately agree with 33 , girls have to cook and clean and take care if the kids for life , the only time they might feel a bit pampered, u start complaining!!! Mayb don't go to kollel after marriage and start working!
(4/10/2010 2:32:55 PM)
129
woah 112
You have got to lighten up. I am number 3 and 111 and I posted all that as a semi-joke. Not poking fun at the author- really I do feel for him (and if he manages to get any dates out of my idea that he post a shadchans name I'd be happy for him) however, I was just trying to lighten up and see the humor in a situation that although seems unfair and we can post op eds to vent about, in the end wont really change as thats how society just is.

I dont really intend to contact him. I'd never go out with someone based on an article and I most def would never go to a site like saw you at sinai. Please try and see the humorous side of life. Its good for you and you'd be a happier person.
(4/10/2010 2:51:59 PM)
130
Sensitivty
Has anyone actually considered the feelings of all the people that are going to lose their jobs if people stopped spending money on dates. Do any of you have the courage to look into the car rental owner's eyes and tell him that you want to save money and aren't interested in renting. How about the hotel managers? or the captains of the planes? Until you are prepared to do that I don't think that its appropriate to continue this discussion.
(4/10/2010 3:17:01 PM)
131
Why not Saw You At Sinai?
What do you have to lose? ...Not $700, certainly...not even close!
(4/10/2010 3:20:07 PM)
132
pathetic!
how do these boys expect to get married if they make deals that theyre only going to go if their dating more then one girl!like do they think their so popular that everyone wants to date them-their loosing out! personally i spent a lot of money on a flight, met one girl while there and now we are happily married-that is the way to go!
(4/10/2010 3:53:43 PM)
133
to 111 and 3
i am definitly seein the humorous side of life, that may be why i was laughing at your first post and feeling sorry for people who are actually that desperate, whether you really ARE, or were just pretending... ??

gnite :)
(4/10/2010 4:04:59 PM)
134
To 112
Not everything in life has a humerous side to it. In fact not everything should! Life is not all about humor! Some things are meant to be serious! i.e. shiduchim
(4/10/2010 4:23:10 PM)
135
to #73
You mentioned that there was also the worry of the cost of setting up the married couple in an apartment. It's a new world out there! When I got married over 22 years ago my parents set me up with just the basics....blankets, dish sets, flatware, towels and the like. That's all they could afford, especially with many other siblings at home. My husband and I took our wedding money and bought our own bedroom set, kitchen table, mattresses etc. If the new couple are mature enough to get married then they should be mature enough to have some financial skills and not expect everything from their parents. That's not an easy thing to accomplish since todays generation of kids get handed everything on a silver platter not even knowing what goes into the cost of everyday living. I think high school girls and boys should have classes on the abc's
of finance and economics. This way they can start their married lives knowing what costs lay ahead of them and not have a major rude awakening later on.
(4/10/2010 4:47:29 PM)
136
moving to CH worked for me
Hey all; just wanted to weigh in from my experience.
I lived outside CH. And had a good job, car, apartment etc. I would do
the flying thing...and spent thousands on dating.
Then I decided to move. NOT to save money. It was a change in
attitude. A different approach.
It really depends on what your current focus in life is. What is the
#1 priority. For most of my early adult life, my focus was on career.
Working. I did date. But it was a side thing. Every few months, I'd
fly to date. For me, flying on a weekend was very challenging. It felt
very strange...setting aside a weekend to find a wife.
Then one day, I decided that my focus should change. And my first
priority should be to find my wife. So I packed up my stuff and moved
to ch. Trust me; it wasn't fun. But I had a job to do; to get married.
I found a job. Then began dating. And a year and four months later, I
am bh happily married. And we are moving ;)

For me, dating, money, work etc...all boils down to what you make a priority.
(4/10/2010 5:20:02 PM)
137
To 121
hmmmm (I'll admit, my wife helped me with this....) just assuming your average girl is doing her own makeup based on the price (for decent brands) divided by uses here's about what it would cost

Eye shadow $20 / 200 = .10
Eye Liner $20/ 200 = .10
Mascara $25/100 = .25
Foundation $25/50 = .50
Powder $20/ 200 = .10
Blush = $25/250 = .10
Lipstick = $20/100 = .20
Lipgloss = $15/150 = .10

Total $1.45

so maybe you can just bill the guy for the difference of .70 cents.....and call it even...then you can help the guy pay for the flight, car, gas, etc....and of course as a gentleman he'll be happy to pay for the date itself....
(4/10/2010 6:33:04 PM)
138
137
i agree with the author but you also hav to realise that the girl is the one who usually pays for the wedding!
(4/10/2010 7:15:02 PM)
139
Just have to comment
I told myself that I was not going to comment on this article, as I didn't want to be number 137 (although it's possible that by the time my comment is published I may be number 177), but I just felt that I have to comment.

I am a single guy, who's still trying to find his gal. Unfortunately, she still hasn't made herself known. I do now however know how to find her. I will write an article on COLLIVE.

Btw, the article will be titled, "Getting the girl to pay for the drinks, can it be done?"

P.S. I've never done it before, but I'd love to do it to #111, I'm pretty sure that it will be a show of Shock and Awe (and than a slap on the face - she'll be wearing a glove of course)!
(4/10/2010 7:16:07 PM)
140
experienced one
anyone can be a shadchan and redt a shidduch, but it takes emunah and bitochon in hashem to get married
no one can set you up with someone you don't want to go out with
poor "checking out" is your own fault and there is no such thing as someone else's responsibility or fault
take responsibility for your own decisions
find out what you want to know and make sure you are in agreement with the answers and they are clear
don't go out with everyone just to do it - it isn't the way to do things
don't accept half answers and be sure that this is the one
just remember this person could be the next member of your family
how would you like them to feel welcomed
ps there is such a thing that is done that's called mentchlichkite - share in the expense
after the boy flies in let him use the family car and the family rents a car for the dating perhaps
most after expenses are 50/50 so after you get through the initial start so should the rest
i had a standing agreement with shadchanim - for my sons or daughters- the boys pay the initial flying and then we split it after that
this worked for all my children, bli ayin hora, and the mechutim too
good luck to you all and remember:
this is not for dating this is for getting married
change your mind set on that it may help you

(4/10/2010 8:15:50 PM)
141
Small Point.
Didn't have the patience to read through all the comments, but thank you to #139 for making me laugh!

I also wanted to add, that while i'm sure it's definately annoying for a guy to have to fly over to see the girl & spend all that comes with it, if things go well, the girl will generally make the next trip up... i've done it myself.

And guys should just know that the girl always appreciates every dollar spent on her! :)
(4/10/2010 8:30:23 PM)
142
Does the girls side REALLY pay for the wedding??
I'm sorry, but as much as people claim the girls side pays for the wedding so the boy should pay for shidduch dates, if the girls family is in a tough financial situation and the boys side is doing alright financially, we all know whos going to end up paying for the wedding....
(4/10/2010 9:55:15 PM)
143
yayayyayayay
who has all the free time in the world to read and write all this comments
don't get me wrong the giy has a point
not everyone has a dollar tree in his back yard
(4/10/2010 11:40:26 PM)
144
good but....
i dont think the girl should split the charges for the ticket only for the drinks the parking the car rental,etc.
(4/11/2010 2:39:43 AM)
145
Moshe B
If you think dating is expensive.. wait till you get married!!!!!!!!!!!!
(4/11/2010 3:06:43 AM)
146
one sec over there....
HOW MUCH DO YOU THINK THE GIRLS SPEND ON THEIR CLOTHES FOR THAT DATE!?!?!?!!?!?!?!
ur not the only one
me being a girl, i shall stick up for us womens rights!
girls (unlike boys) ask for just water-free.
girls, (unlike boys) pay a lot of money on their dresses, blouses, shirts, skirts, its not cheap being a girl!
girls, (unlike boys) are worth the money
girls, (unlike boys) would GLADLY pay their share of money if the boy would only speak up-the boys think that if they speak up 'oh no it wont be a shidduch anymore' which is true, but if ur rlly looking 4 the right 1, ull get her by being urself! dont go to a date and be oh so "perfect"!
BE URSELF!
and all those boys out there just dont REALIZE!!
and then they go home crying that they will never find the right shidduch bla bla bla bla bla...
the girl whom you are looking for will not care!
and yea im yaddaing but its true and i dont care!
and just 2 prove my point, yadda yadda yadda
(4/11/2010 4:48:02 AM)
147
To number 139
I am #111 and that was funny!
Thanks for a good laugh. And I think I'll skip the slap. Not ladylike ya know.
(4/11/2010 5:41:44 AM)
148
how about this...
the girl is wearing a $150 dress, $90 shoes, 50 for belt 75 to get makeup done cuz all the boy cares about is what she looks like right??? and hey someone even suggested only go out after seeing a picture of her man get ur priorities straightttt
(4/11/2010 6:22:47 AM)
149
uh to number 148 PRICE CHECK!!!!
thats insane!!! Yes I know there are some girls that pay those prices but they are flat out crazy. I am a girl and I wear my $12 skirt from Burlington coat factory, my 10 dollar shirt from target and my 20 dollar shoes from payless. I do my own makeup and hair and I look beautiful and put together. The boys (or anyone for that matter) CANNOT tell the difference of the price of clothes you are wearing.
(4/11/2010 7:14:47 AM)
150
#148
she already wore it, and will wear it again...
so ya, u can't compare..;)
(4/11/2010 7:56:48 AM)
151
meet in a home
The first date should be in a HOME. If there is a reason to continue then go to a place that does not empty your pocket.
Make sure not to date too many times. This is not a dating game. THIS IS THE REAL THING: TO BUILD A HOME LESHAIM SHOMAYIM!!!!!
(4/11/2010 8:00:59 AM)
152
to 148 and 67
#148 walk out of Dolce & Gabbana and hit up old navy geez!

67 lolololololololol
(4/11/2010 10:04:26 AM)
153
to 139
haha.....nice sense of humor .........i wouldnt mind paying for ur drink :))
(4/11/2010 10:17:53 AM)
154
To #153
I will pick you up on the corner of Montgomery and Albany at 8pm. It will be a 1982 black crossover (did they have them in those days?), I will need your phone number as I regularly run ten minutes late and will need to call you beforehand to tell you. Please bring me a diet coke and a sprite as I usually have two drinks. I will also need you to print out directions to the Brooklyn Bridge on MapQuest (the circle by the Brooklyn Library can be confusing). By the end of the night, if I don't marry you, at least you will feel like my wife!

P.S. If I haven't turned you off yet, my Shadchan is ...

P.S.S. To number 111, I'm also from out of town, but currently living in NY. When you finish dating the author, give me a call.

Yours Truly,

#139
(4/11/2010 11:34:01 AM)
155
wow #33 is very controversal topic.
(4/11/2010 2:09:06 PM)
156
thirty three sounds like a high class girl.
(4/11/2010 2:09:35 PM)
157
MOSES B
TO NUMBER 3:
Why do you write that "you resisted moving to CH". Like it is something bad or wrong. The Rebbe's message is clear " KAN TZIVAH HASHEM ES HABRACHA"
(4/11/2010 2:35:10 PM)
158
What's up with texting at a computer?
When you are sitting at a key board and using words like c u b 4 ur URSELF etc. it can get really annoying.
(4/11/2010 3:35:25 PM)
159
Well worth the Investment!
The auther has a very good point. But in the business world and in life in general there are two types of investments you can make, long term and short term.Dating is the longest and by far the most meaningful and profitable investment you will ever make.It is worth it to invest everything you have financially for the possible out come of it. I flew twice to meet a girl and it didnt work out but I dont regret it since it could have been the one.
I have to disagree and say it's well worth the investment!

A single out of town Bachur
(4/11/2010 4:00:20 PM)
160
to 154
you made my day! thats the funniest one i have read yet!!!!
(4/11/2010 4:02:02 PM)
161
What's important?
The only thing that's imortant is that the guy and girl get to know eachother. There doesn't need to be fancy cars, food, etc. What's wrong with a nice stroll through a park or the likes?
(4/11/2010 4:16:39 PM)
162
i agree
i agree with 161,
and the best dates r day dates, cuz u have a clearer mind, u can think more clearly.
but, i do think the boy should provide decent car, drinks... but just not to overdo, cuz it makes u not think straight.
(4/11/2010 4:23:36 PM)
163
to 161
A) is still cost him money to get there (if you read the article)
- Flight
- Taking off work
- basic car (not everyone has one they can borrow and you just don't take a first date on the subway)

B) sometimes you can't just take a stroll (like in the winter or in the rain)
(4/11/2010 5:35:38 PM)
164
root out the problem!!!
Perhaps the problem isnt the system, maybe it's that you've dated "plenty of girls".
I dont know whats in your mind but it seems from the article that you find the mitzvah of finding a wife more like shopping for the perfect car or house.
kavod bnos yisroel is EXTREEMLY important, while you seem to be worrying about money the girl you spent $700 on dosnt appreciate the money. she is probebly eating herself up wondering what went on in the date and why she isn't good enough.
It's irrelevent how many girls youve dated as long as you can number each one as a sensitive jewish neshoma, "plenty" is definetly too many!!!
solution: do less dating. do more reasearch and more thinking. don't date a girl if it sounds good, date if you just need to clarify the last few points. This will save you money but more importantly it will save the kedusah, dignity and self esteem of precious bnos yisroel.
(4/11/2010 9:38:19 PM)
165
to Number 40
You sound like a guy's worst nightmare. A gold-digging self centered girl who dreams about some rich romantic prince charming surprising her with first class trips to Bermuda..... Its not gonna happen. You'd rather someone without the credit card bills a bankruptcy. But then again, with your expectations he probably WILL end up bankrupt. Id much rather a financially responsible spouse, who will ensure that we have what we need for ourselves and our kids.
(4/12/2010 12:21:38 AM)
166
out of towners
if you don't mind paying for flights stay out of town, don't want to pay live in CH. People from amazing countries overseas (like australia) are giving up a lot to live in CH, you don't have to live overseas just interstate, not so bad, overseas girls living in CH have guts, what about you?
(4/12/2010 12:33:40 AM)
167
Baggage fees
U forgot the overhead Baggage fees 4 carry-on bag
(4/12/2010 2:11:59 AM)
168
Why diss ch?
why do you people keep complaining about the cost of living in CH? Where else can you rent a basement with 3 other people for $1000 a month (and no utilities)? Where else is there such a great mass transit system that costs $2 a ride? Where else can you get dairy and meat at CH prices??? NOWHERE in the US, so stop complaining!!
(4/12/2010 2:17:59 AM)
169
hey
after over a decade of dating my parents agreed to my idea to stop paying for my flights.
let the boy who's anyway not planning on traveling for a date finally agree to pay for half the ticket.
mr x agreed. i flew in. we met 4 times. we both knew that was the end, we really liked each other but were never gonna marry each other. the shadchan was contacted to get the money from the boy. he couldn't get a single $ out of the boys pocket. the boy just made up that i had flown in for a few other boys and not just for him, because he had heard i was still in town. it took 3 months until he paid up. yuck. he's in his forties now (he was older than he had said before we dated) and still single. he's graying at his temples. i feel like screaming @ him for being such an %^%&!!!
(4/12/2010 9:16:37 AM)
170
confession session!!!
Just wanted to make a shout out...Girls in their early dating stages, don't really realize the cost of dating...any suggestions that they made, they dont know how costly diff hotel/cafe's can be ...so I apoligize on all thier behalfs!
G'luck finding all your other halfs:)
(4/12/2010 11:54:22 AM)
171
what???
An average girl's fees:
1)Ok. You dont have to go around looking like a shlump with a 20.00 targer shirt, For gosh sakes! buy an outfit thats 36.00!!!
2) Why should you spend 90.00 on thoes just for a date! Wear your old ones. (In fact most girls have at least one pair of shoes to match every outfit).
3) Common! You cant get makeup every time you go on a date. Say you go on 8 dates, thats a lot of money!!
(4/12/2010 1:11:36 PM)
172
Question to the Author
I think that the comment regarding makeup was not literally to discuss the breakdown of the cost of makeup per date. Yes, some readers took things a bit far.
This is life.
Women have responsibilities as do men.
Do you see women screaming how it’s not fair they have to deal with the pain of childbirth and taking care of their children?! Do you see men wailing how they hate going to work in the morning?!
Life is not about equality. For every gender life is just different.
The way of the world is that the boy courts the girl.
Please stop trying to disturb nature's equilibrium.
I am sorry for the author that he has to waste so much money trying to find a wife.
One question for the author- if the next girl you were going out with was THE ONE would you want her to pay half your ticket??
(4/12/2010 3:17:08 PM)
173
to 172
umm sexist much? The world is not about equality necessarily, but who says men and women are not equal. we are equal, but different. So yes, we do have different responsibilities. We do different things. But give credit where it's due - men are not the only ones going to work.

Btw, it sounds like you need some help at home so that you can have more time to think before you write. Since you think it is normal for a guy to spend that much, my guess is that your husband is rich and can therefore afford such help.
(4/13/2010 2:09:12 AM)
174
CONCLUSION FOR GIRLS
You can whine about make up costs etc etc.

But the idea here is to get married, not to be RIGHT.

So must guys are looking for NORMAL DOWN TO EARTH GIRLS and mother in laws.

So if the girl and her family act like mentchin and say, "hey we get it, and we would like to pay for half the ticket"

Right or wrong it shows really really well on your side and you started to be attractive even before getting in the car, or putting on all that make up.

So many people don't act like mentchin, like taking 2 days to get back with "no" after a date, or just run their mouths off about every little details that was not perfect about the date.

Judaism does apply to dating, too!
(4/13/2010 2:24:08 AM)
175
To 172
I see how you confuse the issues by your comparing of meeting - some would mistakenly call it dating - expenses to childbirth. You see, the pain of childbirth is a natural occurrence that although men sympathize with there is not much that can be done about it. Also, I do not believe that the author was trying to change the social norms of having the guy pay for the date either.

The other was referring to the "meeting" process with is part of the Shidduch system which compensates for (what you might consider the "natural" way of the world but others do not) the fact that guys and girls do not meat under day to day life experiences.

Since both parties have an equal interest in seeing if there is potential they should both have equal financial input to make that happen. Once it becomes a courtship and the guy want's to show the girl how he feels he would feel more than happy to take her out to some nice places.
(4/13/2010 2:40:44 AM)
176
GROW UP!
WE SHOULD STOP TALKING SHTUSIM, MONEY COMES AND GOES BUT MARRIAGE IS FOR LIFE!!!!!!!
(4/13/2010 4:43:06 PM)
177
Financial Responsibility
Im not saying that it is good to spend so much money but it seems that if the person is dating he is going to get married soon and this could be the perfect opportunity to teach him financial responsibility. He should make a limit on how much he could spend and then he could try to get good prices etc. Also, if its the mans parents who are paying you have to think about the girls side. They pay thousands and thousands of dollors for the wedding. Another thing, I know men who have been dating for a long time and i dont see him or his parents struggling financially at allwhich means that dating doesnt cost as much as the bochur says so.

(4/14/2010 10:39:43 AM)
178
....
71 lol!!!!
whoever suggested 1 ad 2 to get married, they both are female.

(4/22/2010 8:34:12 PM)
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