Dec 28, 2009
Her Parents Rejected Us
Shidduchim SOS: We heard about this nice girl that friends say will match our son. But her parents rejected the offer. What now?
Shidduch question:
We are parents to a very good bochur who is at shidduch age: a masmid, goes on mivtzoim, has manners and is responsible and clean.
We get many offers and look through them all. Recently we heard about a very nice girl from Crown Heights who, according to her family members and friends, would match our son.
The thing is that her parents said no. Is there anything we can do? How do we go about it? We really want her for him.
Mrs. Sarah Junik's answer:
First of all let me wish you hatzlacha rabo in your search, may you find his zivug in a "sha'a tova umutzlachas".
I cannot answer specifically, as I need more details which, I understand, you would be loath to publish in a public forum, but I can address the subject in general.
It helps to know when and how the rejection took place. Depending whether the rejection was at the very first stages of the shidduch, or further along, possibly after a meeting, one would put more or less effort to change the "no" to a "maybe".
A common possibility is when we have researched a name that sounded promising (a name that was suggested a by various individuals, as mentioned in the letter above) but when our information was presented to the other side, we were told that they said no, the shidduch was not for them.
We should understand that when a shidduch is rejected without a satisfactory reason we feel hurt for the rejection and at a loss for how to fix it. We feel that if only we knew what the objection was, we could explain it away or prevent this from happening again.
What we should feel though is that this was not the right time, or maybe -even though so many people suggested it – this was not the "Bashert" that we were looking for.
If it was the right time or the right person then surely it would have come about.
Hashgacha Protis in shidduchim is blatant. When things have to happen they do. It does not matter if, like in the stories we hear, a neighbor gives bad reports, or a brother keeps rejecting suggestions. When the right one comes, the neighbor will be out of town and the brother unreachable.
That is why many people are happier when a "no" comes from the other side and not from them. They are happy not to take the achrayus of having rejected a potential zivug, and they know that if it is the right one after all, the Aibishter will bring it about at the right time in His own way.
On the other hand the family who is doing the rejecting does not have to give a reason for not following through on a suggestion. Whatever their reason may be, it is their choice to accept or reject a shidduch (hopefully well thought out and not for frivolous reasons).
In the case described in the letter, being that family members seem to be involved, maybe a relative could approach the parents of the girl and call attention to what a good suggestion this really is, how they personally know the boy etc. They could explain all the reasons why these two are a match, i.e. same goals, compatible characters, midos etc. If this does not work, then it is better to look elsewhere. B"H there are a lot of exceptional girls in Lubavitch.
May we hear good news soon from you and from all the other "I" that are looking for an "us."
So in answer to your question, "What now??" . . "Nothing. . just join the looong queue. . . "
Disillusioned and Disappointed
'Hashgacha Protis in shiduchim is blatant' I have seen it many times B'H
As in general with the inyan of hashgocho protis, we don't just sit idly and wait for the brochos to fall into our laps, but once we have done our hishtadlus, we have to recognize with humility Who the Brochos come from and that a 'no' is an answer from the same Source as the 'yes'
Hatzlocho Rabbo to all who are seeking their Bashert,
and may it happen now.
For it is really helping people who have children, friends, and relatives who are in need of shidduchim. Especially this one which focuses on a very important issue that many people have never approached before.
I would like a give a big Yasher Koach to COLLIVE for producing such helpful articles on this topic.
You should be blessed with everyone you may need in physical and spiritual things.
My son, for example, wears slippers in the mikva. Slippers in the mikva I say! How are we supposed to have a generation of yungerlite who don't appreciate the kedusha of mikva and feel the need to wear slippers when there.
Thank you, Ad Mosai, Ad Mosai, Ad Mosai!!!.
we don`t take it to heat and say NEXT.......
so many times the parents wish to get married again and search for everything they didn't get in their own spouses
After awhile I stopped feeling sorry for girls who were older and not married. Many times they had chances and turned them down so I don't feel sorry for them. Not all boys and their mothers are as picky as they are made out to be.
My parents said no too, but I cajoled them into atleast letting me try it. Since they had only one issue with his backgorund that they were not happy about. I told them i am old enough to get married, perhaps I am old enough too to decide if that particular issue is a deciding factor.
Well B'h though he wasn't my first, he was my last and that is history.
So I say pursue it!!!!!!!!!!!!
Why not have the young couples think of their single friends and work on shidduchim for them !!. They would be doing a toiva and making shadchanis gelt !!
So if you hear a no maybe IT IS the girl who said no and the mother or father or somebody else.
May hakodosh boruch hu send the right on b`korov.
I heard stories that prove persistence does help or is it just annoying?
And then we wonder why there is a shidduch crisis!
So if you hear a no maybe IT IS the girl who said no and NOT the mother or father or somebody else.
and in every scenario there is always the other side- what if its a boy that has said no many many times? you try again. thats it!
All I can say is that thank G-d you're not my mother...
Specify in you email to her if you want it to be in a public forum, if yes then when she answer's your question you can email the question and answer to Collive.
Thanks so much to Collive for posting such Op-Ed's and bringing these vital issues to everyone's attention.
A groisen Yasher Koiach!!!
you get things done much faster that way. going through parents is just a pian in the neck.
i the girl or guy is old and mature enough to get married, then i think he or she is also old enough to make his/her own to decision wheather to go out with someone...
what is up with 25-30 yr old guys who are still going throhg their mommys for shiduchim!!!]??? it's time to cut the umbilicall cord and start making your own decisions!!!!
and what about people who go through more than one marriage r"l???? Who was their zivug?
in the end it is the boy and girl who are sitting there on the date alone. they should be able to say who they want to go out with.
do you know how many times i have tried to set up a shidduch, and i speak to the mother, who says no, and i am almost positive that the guy doesn't even get the name of the girl from his mother. she just takes it into her liberty to say no for him... what a chutzpah!!!
the mothers always think they know their sons better than the sons know themselves...
mothers, your sons have minds of their own, let them have the main say as to what they want to do with their lives, after all IT IS THEIR LIFE!!
unless there is a really legitimate reason why they shouldn;t get married, then the only thing the parents need to do, is give their blessing, not permision. their kid is not two anymore and they should have a lttle faith in their child
and by legitimate, i mean that there is something realy and truelly wrong with the guy... not that the parents don't like something about his anscesters etc....
actually i don't think there is any real number out there that shows that shidduchim that don't go through the parents end with sholom bayis problems. on the contrary, i kknow of many happy marriages ...
i am not saying that every shidduch hasto be without the parents, but i have learned from experience that there are one too many controlling mother out there... and i just think they should give their sons/dauhgters a voice too
I would like to give some advice to any parent who feels that way: GO GET HELP!
Many parents feel that way, and they think that this is just the way children are, ALL children feel not understood by their parents! – this is not the case. There are many parents who have proper communications skills and know HOW to validate their children’s feelings in a way that their children feel UNDERSTOOD, and feel like their parents ALWAYS GET IT!
But for someone who was brought up in a not understanding environment, in order to be understanding and come across understanding, they need to learn new methods of communication (and if they don’t they will just complain that children are just so obnoxious and unappreciative etc. etc.)
As a kid I used to complain that my parents don’t understand etc. and they used to tell me that when I’m a parent my kids will say the same about me (and they even added the logic that it’s Hashems way of punishing me…)
In the end they would have been right if I would use the same methods of communication they used, but Hashem was kind to me and in the first year of my marriage someone taught me how to “validate feelings” and other communication skills. Besides for my Shalom Bayis getting better with my wife, when I had kids it started off right and I have Shalom Bayis with them, and none of my kids ever feel that I don’t get it or I don’t understand them. – and now I see so many parents having “problems” with their children that I thank Hashem that I don’t have those problems because I know HOW to listen to my kids and how to respond.
BTW I once heard a speaker saying that parents should get to know how to use Ipods and other modern Smechikes, so that their children feel like they relate to them. I personally think that’s nonsense, if you know how to make a child feel understood then you can have a white beard till the floor and not speak a word of English and your children will feel that you just get it, and if you don’t know how to validate a child’s feeling, you can be the most into OHA”Z, wearing jeans and texting on your new cell phone a whole day, and your children will feel that you don’t get it!
How do you know that the mothers are not allowing the sons to decide whether to go out or not? I always tell my son when someone is interested but I don't lie and say that she is from a united family when the parents are divorced or say that she is thin when she is chubby. I tell him the results of my investigation and let him decide. If he says "no" to the suggestion or offer, don't blame me. If I already know that he will say "no" to a girl several years older or several inches taller than him, I then have the chutzpah to turn down the suggestion without consulting him. If a boy has always been on the derech, the mother is well within her rights to decline a suggestion regarding a girl who has been off the derech and was behaving in an untznius way with boys, even if she is behaving properly now. I guess that us MOBs and our sons have no rights, only the girls have those rights. Aren't women always victims ?
i do have brothers who all went thru shudduchim and they all just seemed to have a much easier time than us girls.
i am now married, and just get frustrated when trying to set up friends and trying to deal with the mothers... for many reasons
all you young couples out there, DON'T FORGET THAT U WERE ONCE SINGLE , think for a second about a single friend that is still hanging out and try to set them up
i totally agree with u. a bunch of short minded ppl there are in this world.
girls stop being so difficult and saying no for stupid reasons and guys stop thinking the next girl will be better stop digging for gold and go out!!!! have fun and find ur bashert in a kosher way!
I guess G-d just wanted it to happen a year or 2 later....
EVERYTHING MIDA NEGED MIDA EVERYTHING IS SEEN AND NOTICED ABOVE
YES IT SHOULD HURT YOU AND DO SOMTHING ABOUT IT,ITS A WHOLE GENERATION OF KIDS NOT FULFILING THEIR PURPUSE.
It's not the same if a good friend, or neighbor calls. The issue is that those good friends say "yes.. I might have someone, but ... I dont know if it is right... I'm not a professional.. "
And then the thing dies. If our friends would consider how lazy and uncaring shadchanim are (try calling and getting through to most of them, try to arrange a meeting in person with these snobs, "I would be meeting people all day," etc), then they will see that their attempt is much better and will be more effective.
In fact according to a poll I saw, 80 % of shidduchim are made through friends, the rest via shadchanim.
FRIENDS FRIENDS FRIENDS.
DON'T BE SHY! JUST TRY!
I thing the main issue in the question was: the parents said no, many others said yes. Is it possible that the parents are making a mistake and if so, is it proper to "go around them" and if yes, how.
Rebitzin Junik writes that there needs to be more details to answer specifically.
I am writing this because it seems from the many posts that some people are not aware of the values of our present shiduch system. (which like our 'healthcare' is getting lots of flak for a supposed 'crisis' due to the few issues which generate lots of noise, while neglecting to give it credit for the fact that it is indeed the best in existence, period.)
The Torah, as specified by the Rebbe and many other poskim give the boy/girl and ONLY them the right to choose who to marry. However, because of our self-love we are the blindest judges of flaws which may be destructive in a relationship (and may be a non-issue for someone else) a beautiful girl which may have a temper, a charming guy with a lousy work ethic etc. Therefore, the prospect themselves is in most cases the worst judge of who to select to date, being the closest and the most blind to crucial issues.
In most healthy families the task of selecting candidates falls on the parents. In fact, the first sign of a wise and mature prospect would be their response to a proposed shiduch. In most cases they would say, "Please don't mention anything to me, my mother/father is doing all the research". Sometimes a parent is truly out of touch and a prospect might suggest a friend/teacher/mashpia etc.
Completely forgoing this system would be neglecting a tool which Hashem gave us to protect against inborn faults which lead to destructive relationships. It does sometimes, like in the questioner’s case, lead to bottlenecks which in this case the questioner thinks may be unwarranted.
People have also found great shiduchim entirely without the shiduch system, however, aside from the fact that there is no way to judge what happens behind closed doors, hitting a bulls-eye is not the sighn of a great archer, unless they do it consistenly. Individual examples could be luck, the archer could also have been aiming for something else entirely. Our ‘system’ has been proven to have a tremendous success rate, and is what brought us to this point from point A, three and a half thousand years ago.
The first thing to do, as some suggest, would be to try a different “salesman”. Approach a friend of the family, a rabbi they respect, a family member, etc. and try to sell them about the shiduch and have them approach again, perhaps trying a different angle. [practical note: you don’t need to present the whole truth, i.e. the second salesman doesn’t need to say “the family was rejected and asked me to try again” they could say “I was walking down Kingson avenue when I thought of the greatest shiduch for your child” without mentioning that the reason that they thought of it while walking down Kinston Ave. was because you were walking next to them, telling them that – as long as they truthfully (now) feel that it is a good shiduch]
If that still dosen’t work, than a few questions to the questioner. Is there a reason to believe that the parents don't have the child's full confidence? If so, knowing the parents and the family dynamic are you still interested in pursuing it? (i.e. you can see why the disconnect is there and it makes sense, or the child may be a free thinker but so is the person that you are thinking of). In that case one thing that you might try is to approach the child themselves and ask them who they trust to research shiduchim. They may takke say someone other than the person that you’ve been discussing this with up until now. Although there may be hurt feelings on the part of the parents, that’s between the child an his/her parents (and an obvious issue to consider when pursuing this shiduch further…).
One thing that I would not do and I feel would be wrong, would be to approach the prospect directly with the name of the prospective shiduch. That would be using a fault which the Torah describes, our own self love, in this case the prospect’s possible mistaken agreement to the idea, to your benefit over the family’s better judgment. In this case, even thought the child made their own choice (and this is not Iran) the Torah specifically warns us of the potential judgmental faults at issue here and it would be wrong to abuse that to your advantage.
- By not signing this I am leaving everything here completely up to the discretion of the reader…
And as to the idea of being "rejected" - there can be a really nice person from a really nice family who is suggested to another family. We had someone we thought was a wonderful person suggested to us, and from a nice stable family that we respected. But when we and our child discussed it, we realized that for a variety of reasons, the shidduch just would not work. The reasons were NOT shallow. I felt bad because the other family was very hurt. It can be very hard to see that, when a family says "no," it often just means that they don't think it's a good fit. A puzzle piece is important to the whole puzzle, but it can only match with certain other pieces.
Parents are not always the best option - sometimes they really don't care about their children, and sometimes they are just so egocentric that it's throw-up-itating. B"H not all parents are like that, but I think that some people have a right to skip asking their parents, and should find a responsible adult to help them instead. Oh, and even though I talk to MIL about a lot of things (sholom bayis not among them), I try to be civil to my mother and end the conversations there. The rule: "Anything I don't want to tell all of Toronto, I shouldn't tell my mother." And no, I haven't regretted getting married - I just regret trusting my mother. And yes, I found a replacement for her, and sometimes - but not often - I do talk to the replacement about sholom bayis. But because my husband is a good person and mature (and I hope that I am too), we don't usually have issues.
But point being - everyone except my mother thought that this shidduch was a good thing. So, parents are not always the best people to ask.
For the record, i find it deplorable to be reading about a girl's dress size as a way to describe her body type. It is really crass and crude. Women are not dolls or mannequins. We are complex, wonderful, deep human beings, as are men, and should not be described in a way that reduces us to a centerfold.