Nov 22, 2009
Not Another Broken Heart
Shidduchim SOS: From a Chassidishe bochur wanting Shlichus, my husband turned into an unemployed man touching his beard and drinking in bars. Mrs. Sarah Junik, how do I avoid making a mistake again?
Dear Mrs. Junik,
I have something that is bothering me very much and is something on my mind that I would like to share with you and get your input about.
I was married in the past for quite a while, and now I am divorced. I know everything is Hashgacha Protis, and I know that I have a very bright future ahead of me, but I would like to pour out my heart to you on some of the experiences that I went through, and to get some perspective on how to make sure that such a thing will not happen again ch"v.
This is my story in short:
When we dated, I thought of him as a chassidishe guy who was into the right things and was a guy who wanted to go on shlichus - he displayed a very big passion and will for it.
But as time went on, he really had no interest in going on shlichus. And to work wasn't an option either, so I had to work my tail off, while he was home watching youtube clips and other things.
No matter how much effort I put into the relationship - I came home with a paycheck, really cared for him, cooked and all - I didn't feel the "Kamayim haponim el ponim."
My husband always used to put me down. He was constantly on the phone with his friends and his parents - and as time went on we grew further and further apart.
His mother was very much a part of our marriage in a negative way; always had to have input and a say in everything about our lives.
Soon enough he started touching his beard, and watching movies, and hanging out with friends in places that were not appropriate, (i.e. bars, that I thought were not something a yungerman should be doing.)
So really, what I thought I got in a husband I didn't have. I didn't feel that he was proud of me when we walked down the street together, he didn't respect my upbringing or anything about my family's minhogim etc. Basically we had a very different value system.
But I went along with all of this, I tried to stay positive and do whatever I needed to do as a wife. All I got in return was criticism and comments how I wasn't good enough for him and that I was too controlling - when in reality it was the opposite.
When we both realized that things were not good in our relationship, we went to therapy after much discussion and deliberation (with the advice of our individual mashpiim). However, that didn't help.
I think the core of the problem was that we each had a different understanding and ideology as to what marriage is, and how it should be viewed.
So, the answer was clear that it was time for each of us to move on with our lives, unfortunately in different drections and that hopefully one day each of us will meet our real bashert.
Please give me your thoughts on how to avoid making such a mistake again in the future.
Mrs. Sarah Junik's Answer:
Dear ......,
I am very sorry about the turn your life has taken. I am sure you know all the bumps in our life are there to help us grow and strive to reach higher.
I cannot address your particular case because it would not be correct to judge without all the facts from both sides, but I will address a point you made which is very valid: how can a girl avoid being deceived by the true nature of the boy she is shidduch dating.
It is an unfortunate fact that young men who have serious flaws, know very well that they must hide them when they are in the dating process and show only an idealized fake version of themselves. (I say young men because that is what your letter addresses, but it happens with young women too).
I have never understood why a person would go into marriage having given a totally false impression. It is like someone buying a suit 3 sizes too small. What use is the suit? It can't be worn!
As you say in your letter "....therapy … didn't help because the very core of our marriage had not just been damaged but it didn't have a foundation whatsoever." You thought you were marrying someone with completely different values that would match yours. A person that you could help in his growth while he would encourage you in yours, which was not possible, as his values and yours were diametrically opposed.
Some people go into marriage hoping it is a magic wand that will cure all their problems. That is not so. As Rabbi Avraham Twersky writes in his books, marriage is not a hospital; problems should be resolved before marriage.
Before I mention some practical advice to discern character and try to avoid such pitfalls, let me remind you and anyone else that sometimes this too is beshert. It does not say anywhere that marriage must be happy. Nowhere are we told that out Besherte will be the "man/woman of our dreams".
Sometimes a person has to go through a less than positive experience because that is what is "Beshert". As we have just learned in Parshas Toldos, Hashem gives us Nisyonos and it is up to us to get through them. We do not know the Aibishter's Cheshbon. People go through a lot of tragedies in their lives; they learn, get chizuk and continue on. No one said life has to be "fair".
That said, I believe that today's society subscribes too much to making things easy, putting as little effort into our endeavors as possible. This affects all areas of our lives. If something does not work as we want it to we throw it away. If something is too hard, do something else. We are tremendously influenced by this worldly ethic that is not the Torah way.
What this means in this case is that when people do research for shidduchim, they do not put the effort necessary to make a proper research.
(I know that there are obsessive families that have to speak to the first grade Rebbi or Morah to be satisfied, and that is not what I am addressing.)
Within the norm, one should call friends and friends of friends to get a feel of the girl or boy's character. One should also call the boy or girl's references. Write down the information, listen carefully when you are on the phone. Listen for hesitations, for bland, un-descriptive adjectives such as "nice" "good" "interesting" etc. If a question is not answered ask again in a different way, and always remember to define where you are coming from. What for one person is an intellectual may be a barely literate for another.
I have written at length on the type of questions to ask in my blog, so I will not repeat myself. The important thing is to ask the questions, and when in doubt ask some more and if still in doubt ask a Rov or a Mashpia. Do not gloss over something that does not sound right just because we are so anxious for it to work out.
When going out on a shidduch date, a person can put on a face but it is hard to maintain it, time after time. There will be some discrepancies between what s/he says and s/he does. Keep an eye out, and ear out. It does not do to become paranoid but do not be blinded either. Discuss your experience with a Mashpia, let someone who is not directly involved give an unbiased opinion.
And even after all these precautions, it may happen that one is taken in. To minimize this, daven constantly to be shown the right person for you. Be specific and clear in your description. Ask for Siata D'Shmaya, ask for the person who you can build a Bais Neemon. Daven before Lichtzen, say tehilim, give Tzedokah especially for Chossen and Kallah organizations and learn the Rebbe's sforim on shidduchim and marriage - Eternal Joy in English for example.
May you have much mazel in the future,
Sincerely,
SJ
So in other words you are saying that a person should stay in an abusive marriage whether physical or mental because that is their "Bashert". With the utmost respect i would challenge Mrs. Junik to please find me a source for such a ludicrous statement. "Nisyones" don't mean that a person should remain in the pain, they demand that we escape the pain and learn and gain strength from being able to overcome the pain!!
What is wrong with that?
take a lesson, and i'm sure many readers may benefit from it.
what questions?
it is so important what you mentioned above to do a thorough research, try to detect any hesitations, ....
moshiach now
When a bad marriage is referred to as beshert, it means that it is this person's lot in life deal with this situation in the best possible way for them, whether through therapy or divorce.
Mrs. Junik is merely saying marriages take work, and some people expect everything to be perfect. A healthy marriage isn't neccessarily one where husband and wife agree on everything and never fight.
So to conclude, number 1, I think that Mrs. Junik is saying that a. marriage takes hard work
and b. everything happens for a reason
there is so much more to say, maybe I will get to this later once the kids are asleep
we want tachlis, names of boys and girls to
move on.... so ... who is in crown heights as a active shadchan without cash in advance!!!
very upset NO ONE CARES ....
as well, it usually takes two to tangle... and very seldom can we put all the blame on the other person regardless of how much we love ourselves
Can someone please post a link? Thx
Why is a shadchan not entitled to request cahs in advance? Assuming we are talking about a relatively nominal sum ($150-250), why not request this of someone who we are asking to put hours into our concerns without any ability to ensure success. if we are talking about a shadchan (not a neighbor or friend) they are involved with many, bochrim and young ladies (pet peeve, when saying 'boys and girls' it sounds like we are refering to 10 year olds. if tehy are old enough to get married, to vote, to drive, to drink, they are not boys and girls. Even worse is when you write 'bochrim and girls' - how demeanig!), spending many hours each week. who is supposed to reimburse them for their time? And then we complain that there are no 'active shadchanim' giving shidduchim enough attetion that it deserves. and no, i am not a shadchan, norrelated to any shadchan.
Here is Mrs' Junik's blog http://shidduchim101.blogspot.com/
the key is not just to daven, but to have bitochon that Hashem will make it work in a good and revealed way.
According to the Rebee in Likkutei Sichos Vol 31, Parshas Shemos, Bitochon means to have trust that it will be good in a revealed way. Through this, it will be good even if min hashomayim it wasn' supposed to be.
"tell the truth"
wowowow amazing. a boy should tell the truth about himself and the girl should as well. if the girls truth is that she wants to go on shlichus and the boys truth is that he wants to stay in bars well then end of story. so much suffering can be avoided by this old peice of advice .... tell the truth. be honest. if you are not mature enough or in touch with your inner deep self enough to do these 2 things be honest and tell truth then you SHOULD NOT BE DATING OR SEEKING A MATCH FOR LIFE . you have much more work to do no mater what mommy says (tell your parents the tructh as well ... this also may help in finding you a compatible match)
i think the torah says something about this somewhere and i think chasidus mentions it in passing .... but am not sure because its not a minhag that anyone keeps anymore
It is not bashert to be miserable. What is helpful advice is that every situation we find ourselves in, even if it turns out bad, after the fact, we can use that bad experience to build on for a better life.
Don't settle for unhappiness. Why should anyone? And do try everything to save a marriage. But if after all that, know that you can have a better marriage and life by learning from the past.
Hatzlachah. Remember, Ivdu es Hashem b'simchah applies to every situation.
I dont understand you people, this marriage was not solvable, there was nothing to work with, we're talking here about a sick person who was in it only for himself, was not ready to give himself over and to work as a team, all he wanted was that I should serve him and I should do this and I have to change this and I have to change that, in meanwile he had no interest in being there for me. He wanted to bring me down and thought that he could treat me like trash for the next 60-100 years. I just say Thank G-d every day that Im not living with this person anymore.
He has serious psychological issues and maye Hashem help him because he really needs it, nebach.
If you have emotional issues or insecurities or were abused or is an abuser state those things before u get engaged, its not right to the person youre marrying to have to deal with a full set of issues which he/she is not ready to deal with. If you're selfish and youre in it only for yourself and want your spouse to take care of you and youre not ready to give then u dont belong on the dating scene and you should have no bussiness going 2 get married. Just because your whole class got married doesn't necessarilly mean youre ready for it!!!!
If you have issues take care of it becasue your'e not helping anybody by sweeping the issues under the rug, at the end you'll probably end up divorced and in a much worse situation then. So boys and girls I beg of you, be open and dont hide things not for yourself or your children, and friends and mashpiim and refferences speak up, youre not helping anybody by keeping quiet.
I feel your pain, and am crying while typeing this. Beceause I too, am a victim of such a marriage,and from a ambitous young Kallah I turned into a young dicorced girl. My story is not exactly the same like yours, but we do share the fact, that the boy hid his true colors,and only when married could I detect that something was terribly wrong. In my sad story, it was the parents who hid severe medical issues.
Dear Readers, Please, noone should EVER do such a thing to an innocent, young girl! She is not a hospital or therapist that can heal your son wih magic! What you couldn't have done as a parent all these years, she will not be able to fix herseilf. How can you inflict such pain and suffering on someone so comletely innocent? And then when she finally decides to leave him, , you start making up stories on her, when deep down you know the truth. You just need to protect yourself. So why did you do this altogether?Please, I beg of all future mother in laws: If your child has a problem in any way, dont make his poor kallah suffer! Rather take somone of equal value to him ,so at least noone is being hurt!
And when you hear of a fresh divorce, dont jump to conclusions. You might never know the real reason, beceaese in my case, even his own married siblings dont know the real truth. Sometime the issue cant even be spoken about. Sometimes you just dont talk at atll. But gossip is the worst thing, I can say that the hardest part of my divorce was hearing what lies people spoke. I was the one who made through the pain and suffering, and then you just talk what you imagine?
Anyways, I did go way off topic, but I guess it was my pain that spoke out for me. If I only helped one person by posting this, then it was worth it!
A message to the original author: I understand how you fell and I am glad you got out of it . Hashem should help you shoud speedily find your Bashert and you should be sooooo happy, that you should say, "Well, to get to fhis, everything was worth it!"
imposter attracts imposter
funny.....if they would take off their masks, they would probably really like each other
but while they are attached to their masks (denial)
they cant stand each other
:)
life is interesting aint it !
It's kinda a sad-funny, every time, no matter what, the comments are soooo negative and each commentator tries to outdo the last commentator on negativaty.
Enough! Hamaseh hu ha-ikor! yes, articles will not help ppl get married, but y should that bother YOU?? I'm sure there are lots of singles with questions, very similar questions mind you and although there is no one answer and each person and story is unique, the questions are being answered to the best of abilities. perhaps it will encourage someone with similar thoughts, stories/situations to look further into it and find the correct answer for him/her.
Guys are horrible and girls are just so good!
This is all major ----.
Do you know how PICKY the mothers of these girls are? The worry about the smallest and most insgnificant details and try to impress their neighbors. In the process their daugthers get older.
My advice, girls, take matters into your own hands, dont' let your mommy do it all by herself.
Not convinced? How protective is your Jewish mother when you get a little cut? Now how about when we are dealing with the rest of your life and the possiblity of chas've shalom ending up with a really low life like this article so colorfully describes?
So again, take matters into your own hands...
And some parents are completely delusional... think they are a respected family, when everyone knows the father is as honest as lovon and the mother a snob.
Oh wait, I forgot it's the bochrim, 'cus of the weight thing... yeah.. bochrim's fault, oh, and movies! Yes that's it.
I am all for premarital sessions with the Chosson and Kalloh by a competent counsellor.
Just like it is important and vital for each to learn the halochois pertaining to family purity, so too is it important to guide them in matters of the heart.
Young couples enter marriage with peconceived ideas which are bound to create problems soon after the knot is tied.
Bashert means that they are destined to live happily together, and not to necessarily suffer from abuse of any kind.
Divorce is a necessary institution to save people from marital hell. But is should b a last resort. Marriage should be worked on by both parties, and neither should ever feel that going to counselling as a sign of failure.
I disagree: Marriage must be happy. If it is not, it's time to shape it up or leave CH"V.
Without happiness it is not worth it.
1) Our system does not encourage diversity. If the singles you are dating are considered the norm then you are dating only people that want to go on shlichus etc. HOWEVER it might not be what they really want rather they really just want to be good people who fit in their society and that's not easy if your not wanting Shlichus (trust me I was like that). We are tought the what you want for yourself is bad (hikafia) and you should do what you must do....
2) There seems to be a school of thought that likes to pressure young singles to just go ahead (if thing are ok) and things will work out, a kind of naivite. It doesn't sound like this guy never watched movies or drank beer before he dated it sounds like he didn't feel like it was an option to disclose those innocent hobbies of his before because it's "unheard of".
3) About the "wanting Shlichus but ending up unemployed"...sounds like a bon-afide system graduate to me. This guy should have had other options as should our children.
We can't change the past, let's change the future.
They both suffered trying to resurrect the relationship and fix the issues, which they couldn't bacsuse the girl had serious issues which was not reconcilable, to top it all off the couple thought that therapy would help, but let me tell you all something that therapy does not help, it only makes things worse trust me, ive seen this time and time again and if you dont believe me speak to some real experts in the marital counselling field and they will tell you that therapy is not the way to go.
The issue was not the youtubing all day, that was a symptom of the bigger problem, Dont you people get it??? This guy was really not well psychologicaly or emotionally, he wasn't a healthy human being and may g-d have rachmanus on him and fix him up so iyh his next marriage will be healthier, but i was not able to deal with the issues of self preservation and controlling and wanting to make me irrelivant, which is what he wanted.
My will and goals in life and my desires weren't given a chance to come out and didn't fit with his, and the point here is not to bash the other party, rather to explain to people that if someone is self centered and only cares about what they want and their spouses desires and wants are not considered and taken seriously then that relationship has no hope and therapy will not help in that case either.
One only needs to look at the "Kingston Ave. Parade" on a daily basis to see women, men, girls, bochurim who are displaying a very degrading illustration of "yiras shomayim & tznius" in general.
(ie-shaven beards, long {very, very} long hair, short skirts {way above the knees}, smoking, walking {in public} without any foot-coverings, barely covered hair, tight skirts & dresses, plunging necklines)
When you do not have a frum perspective of yiddishkeit, and a warped sense of self-worth - based on the goyishe-world mentality - then you have the perfect recipe for R"L disaster both spiritually and materially.
If you should ask why is there problems with first time marriages? The Tosfos point out that when G-d makes a fetus he proclaims on it wheather it will be strong rich or poor etc but He does not say if it will be a TZADIK OR RASHA as we know from Tanya.
Therefore, when a first time match does not work out it means that during the persons lifetime till marriage they or their spouse may have diminished or increased their fear or love of Hashem, thereby causing an imbalance between the couple. In heaven this is not considered due the aforementioned fact that G-d does not forecast a persons love or fear of him. In Heaven without deeds they are equal, but after many years on earth a couple may not be equal, yet they are the true preordained Zivug by Hashem.
One may divorce either Zivug (chas veshalom) but this does not prove of disprove anything aforementioned.
I bet if you surveyed all the couples that dress/act/beleive as you describe and all the couples that dress/act/beleive as you think they should you'll find that those that are not like you have better or at least equally happy marriages.
It's those little things called facts that many choose not to factor into their opinions....
Only because of the Mashpiya's advice.
Soometimes mashpiyim are not objective.
Somebody should not go against their parent's advice unless they ask 3 Yedidim Mevinim as the Rebbe clearly said.
I am very capable mentally, physically, spiritually, emotionally etc..
Look, here's my advice.. picture where YOU want to be.. then poll the other half and see where THEY want to be / see themselves.. then look at their actions..
My story is one of blessing's... I look at my life and judaism as one of growth.. and you know sometimes you get stalled..
Mrs Junik in quoting Rabbi Twersky hits on a very important aspect, people have for years been telling me to get married.. and despite my longing to build a warm loving home.. I reply that I am not ready.. they tell me that "you never will be ready"
I think people need to figure out their avoda in life before running to get married..
First be honest with yourself (is the oft repeated line by my very wise mother)... ask yourself what you want from life..
All too often I see very "chasidish" people who are consumed with buying nice things.. ma lehalan?
Heres a question i'd ask.. "would s/he get up in the middle of the night, travel across the city to help a friend or fellow jew in distress?"
If the answer is "yes, they'd wash netilat yadayim, jump out of bed.. and go to yehupitzvile at 3am to help a friend / jew"
I was in the subway at 9pm, I went to check my metro card balance.. I bumped into my best friend, whom 1 hour earlier told me he was drained from work and was heading to bed.. so where's he going at 9pm? to bail a jew out of jail.. a jew he didnt really know.. and I said "i'll come with"
Yes its not on most people's list of realistic expectations.. but the chesed, the caring, the love, the devotion that one can show to a fellow yid.. is a clear example (and yes said friend is bh married with kids)
And as a mashal, I quote ruchama shain in "all for the boss" she describes dating a guy 50? years ago and how he kicked a cat in the curb and she knew he wasent for him..
Look, forget his breath.. it takes 2 minutes to eliminate bad breath and 2 seconds to get it..
Forget how her hair looks.. bad hair days are part of life
The cloths and all are chitzoniyus.. look at the person inside..
And if you rather a guy / girl that looks and dresses like a model.. and you care not for the toichen.. then you are on the road to disaster.
I hate to brake the news to you, but just ask ANYONE NOT IN Crown Heights, and they will tell you about a "tznius/yiras shomayim/frumkeit problem" in "lubavitch" today.
These are real issues - that no matter how "uncomfortable" they make us look, and the "shanda factor" they carry with them - must be at the very top of all of our "agendas", if we are really wanting to IY"H change the shidduchim situation for the better.
Yidden are connected to Hashem through the holy Torah and it's mitzvos. If this connection is R"L weak or broken, then even their own individual "connections" have no hope of success.
Contrary to popular belief - ois vorfen DO NOT FINISH LAST.
Looking back to your dating and engagement, can you see signs of it? Were there things that bothered you at the time that you ignored? Or did everything seem just fine and was this all a shock?
It's a very sad story. I don't understand what you meant by:
"And to work wasn't an option either, so I had to work my tail off,"
1) Why wasn't working an option for him? What were your plans for the year or two after marriage? Did he learn in kollel?
2) What would have happened if you didn't come to the rescue and work?
I think it's a mistake when wives take over their husband's role when their husbands are not working. It is the husband's job to provide and wives should not be shouldering that burden and giving their husbands the freedom to sit home and do nothing.
He seemed to be a good guy who was kind & level headed and all seemed to work in terms of the chemistry and goals.
But as we got to know each other more and living under the same roof we got to see how different we were, and to say the truth, how sick this guy really was, he wanted to bring me down in my goals and didn’t want me to have my own opinions and my own dreams and everything about me had to be done his way and his thinking and it was all about him.
And if I have one advice to give all the single people still out there, forget the size! and forget the yichus! The person whom you’re going to be spending the rest of your life with, is that the right person for you,? That is a question we must all ask ourselves and its sad I had to go through this but BH I have this experience to learn from, and iyh I will not make the same mistake again, but been there done that, and trust me dont overlook the things that bother u about the person even if its a subtle thing, discuss it with your mashpia, it might be a sign of a bigger issue or problem.
It’s not worth overlooking the most vital and important things that will affect yours and your children’s lives forever.
Is he/she a nice person who will care for me and for my children?
Will he/she be there when I need them?
Is he/she honest?
Had he been nice and good to me then I think things could have been worked out.
The Author
As is written in many comments above, there is always more to a divorce than anyone who is not in the bedroom with the couple could know.
We all go in to marriage thinking we will beat all the odds and live happily ever after. Though, in the same breath I am thinking that the young couples nowadays feel that marriage, like everything else, is easily disposable and replaceable.
This topic has a million prisms.
We need to instill greater discipline in bochurim.
Dear Author
It is obvious that you are reading these comments and taking them to heart.
1stly, thank you very much for sharing your very touching and heart-wrenching story, there are many lessons. please note however, that the advice given by commentators is based only on what is written, not on your true story. it is not only likely, it is certain that there are many marriages who's kallah (or choson) would describe exactly as written here, but in actuality simply needs some guidance and a lot of work.
This is NOT a judgment on you or the path that you took.
What Mrs. Junik writes is FUNDAMENTAL to ALL marriages. Yes, happiness is an integral part of marriage but that is the experience of marriage, the ACT of marriage involves tremendous work, often with the happiness well hidden, as in many mitzvos.
Using your description you could easily be describing a case which could be prevented from divorce by understanding that:
- a desire to go on shlichus may be a 'truth' and an 'ideal' but not necessarily a complete description of a person's character, however the facades that we present are indicative of who we would like to be and I'm sure that most kallahs are not fooled completely, it is a true outlook that the bochur is presenting of what he wants to be/thinks he is
- spending all day on youtube (and later going to bars, etc.) is not only an indication of character but a combination of factors, many of which can be helped with the right advice.
- Putting you down when you are bringing in the paycheck and he is wasting time is hurtful, shameless, disgusting etc. - but quite normal for an unemployed person in that situation
Reading this article makes me cry (not for you, author, specifically but) for the hundreds of couples who get married and think that they are the only ones suffering what they are going through
the most important lesson I feel can come from this story is
IF YOU ARE HAVING A PROBLEM IN MARRIAGE, ASK!! there is no taboo, it doesn't mean you are a failure, and it is not insulting to your spouse - IT IS A PART OF LIFE
Start by asking respected friends, or your mashpia. if that doesn't help look for an 'expert', a well known mashpia, rov or marriage lecturer/counselor/therapist. if that doesn't work look for professional therapy - and try two or three different (all well-recommended and researched) therapists before quitting.
Lastly for those who say that therapy doesn't work or makes things work, yes there are cases which make that point, as there are people who get more sick in hospitals. To make such a blanket statement however, and to strengthen a dangerous taboo in our community is literally sakanos nefoshos.