Jul 8, 2017
3 Rabbis Endorse Tznius Rules

Crown Heights Rabbis are backing a set of modesty rules for women and girls detailed by fellow rabbis in Israel.

Crown Heights Beis Din Rabbis Avrohom Osdoba, Shlomo Segal and Yitzchok Raitport have signed a letter of support to new guidelines for women's dress.

A letter in English and Hebrew accompanies the "standardized Tznius guidelines," compiled by Nshei Ubnos Chabad, which was mailed to all the homes in the neighborhood.

"Tznius of a woman is not merely a matter between her and G-d, but rather a matter that affects her entire household," they wrote. "Moreover, the Tznius of a woman affects not only her but also her offspring for generations to come."

For this reason, they "join our names to the standardized Tznius guidelines issued by Rabbonei Chabad of Eretz Hakodesh on Rosh Chodesh Elul 5775."

The guidelines include a list of items of clothing which should and should not be worn by women and girls in the neighborhood.

The guidelines range from general: "clothes should be respectable and tasteful, with colors and patterns that are not highly unusual, and made of materials that do not cling to the body, are not transparent, and are not the same color as the body," to specific: "The skirt should be at least 10 centimeters - 4 inches - over the knee."

Some other guidelines include color of nail polish - "natural color of nail," length of wig - "should not reach past the shoulders," and shoes - "should not draw attention and should reach up only to the ankle."

These guidelines were originally instituted in Israel, and signed on by Israeli Rabbonim Rabbis Zev Dov Slonim, Yitzchok Y. Yeruslavsky, Avrohom Michoel Halperin, Yosef Hecht, Eliyahu Yochanan Gurary and Menachem Mendel Gluckowsky.

A recent list of similar guidelines, instituted by Crown Heights girls school Bnos Menachem, was shared in the media, many complaining the school was overstepping its role.



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Opinions and Comments
1
shemos 3:22
Clear possuk from the Torah that says the Yidden should wear the Egyptians clothing.
(7/8/2017 11:31:40 PM)
2
Enforce?
What will be if one is not keeping to these standards (besides for it effecting her family?) Who will enforce these codes? What about all the baalei teshuva visiting Crown Heights or those not yet on the level to keep to these standards?
(7/8/2017 11:31:56 PM)
3
Repulsive and invasive
Chabad wonders why so many get turned off. Wow.
(7/8/2017 11:32:14 PM)
4
seriously?
how about we focus on something OTHER than women's dress for once???
(7/8/2017 11:33:03 PM)
5
Shimonshak
Are there sources for these very exact guidelines??
(7/8/2017 11:33:16 PM)
6
Total garbage
Sorry but when it's 120 degrees out I'm not covering up and suffering from a heatstroke! Which of these Rabbis will save me then?
(7/8/2017 11:33:58 PM)
7
Wonderful
I wonder are the women so terrible?
I agree 100 per cent., we have lost the refinement for our clothing.
The stores kingston sell those kind of clothing...bec that is what the people want
BH the rabbinic people have spoken!!!
However I find that many men are dressed very Tzniusdik on the outside and rotten inside .
Machshovis and maasim are not in sync with their clothing.
The Rabbonim must address that equally.
It is more important bec we are losing our Dor of men who look great on the outside and are nebech something else inside!
Rabbonin make a shturem about that...
It is poshut sakones nefoshois!!!!!

(7/8/2017 11:41:34 PM)
8
Abt Time
Tznius is just a request that God our father asked us his children. it wasnt about fights and disputes and ppl get angry.its a beautiful mitzvah .
(7/8/2017 11:43:48 PM)
9
mhm
can you please tell me what this is going to achieve?
(7/8/2017 11:49:23 PM)
10
Honestly
Okay I get it. Promoting tznius is good. It's great! But you gotta do it correctly. This isn't doing it correctly. Not going to help.
(7/8/2017 11:50:00 PM)
11

!!!!
(7/8/2017 11:50:03 PM)
12
More men making the rules for women. When will they learn?
This is counterintuitive to inclusivity and the chabad philosophy. Why would these men backing this ridiculous list make me any more inclined to listen? No nailpolish? Please. Telling me how to dress in my own home? Give me a break. Try trespecting women, equal pay in chabad schools irrespective of gender and maybe we will be interested in why you have to say. I'm repulsed to say the least.
(7/8/2017 11:51:58 PM)
13
Tznius is not a dirty word
Bh these are guidlines for us and there are sources. The Rebbe spoke a lot of tznius and wrote about it.
No they won't enforce it but it is good for people to know the correct standard.
Believe it or not people respect us when we dress with standards
(7/8/2017 11:56:42 PM)
14
Wrong side
Ha! The shidduch crisis isn't because the women are not frum enough - the issue is the lack of frum guys! And married men who aren't serving as wholesome examples to their children. Why aren't you addressing those men first before going into this despicable detail of women's bodies??
(7/8/2017 11:57:01 PM)
15
halacha
its important to know the differrence between guidelines, and what is actually halacha
(7/9/2017 12:00:28 AM)
16
A question
I am a Bubbie who is (and always has been) careful with Tznius. And I am not happy at all with Crown Heights looking like a beach town. BUT: Why haven't these Rabbis put as much energy into helping Agunas and victims of domestic abuse (both female & male) ? They seem to have all been sleeping fine at night for years while tragedies are ignored that also affect generations. Maybe the decline in Tznius in Crown Heights is actually the result of their lack of concern, compassion, and integrity ??
(7/9/2017 12:00:57 AM)
17
Why this is upsetting
If there was a letter about tznius that did not only focus on the clothing but also on behavior and lifestyle it would be taken better.
(7/9/2017 12:01:40 AM)
18
Rabbinical tyranny
A lot the specific guidelines in the above proclamation are subject to halachic refutation. That's why these rules will never be accepted and practiced by most women: their rov will be matir all the garments in question.
Instead let's focus on another hilarious point: the fact that old rabbanim decide what is "too attractive". if the rules aren't based in Halacha and the reason for tznius is "to keep men's eyes in better places" then tube only justification for the existence of these rules are that the rov-who made the rule - had his eyes in the wrong place! And that's funny.
(7/9/2017 12:02:08 AM)
19
Are you kidding?
First I would like to say that whatever B'nos Menachem chooses to do is their business. The school is a private enterprise and can demand whatever they want from their teachers, parents etc.

Now as far as our community is concerned - there is no doubt that we have a serious problem but pamphlets like these are of no help. By the way the paragraph about the belts and jewelry were omitted (yes BELTS) for some reason.

Woman who adhere to the laws of Tznius will continue to do so. Those that don't will not be swayed by these rules. There are so many things that go on in Crown Heights where people need to be helped and heard. I for one did not here anything from the Rabbonim as Bais Rivkah teachers desperately needed and need to get payed. There was silence and protection of pedophiles when they know they were in our schools and roaming the streets of the shechuna. Was there any outcry when our children have to move out of the Rebbe's Shechuna because they cant afford to live here. What a Bizayon!!

In order to be listened to you have to give people a feeling that you care for them and their basic needs. Maybe then you can come along and demand certain observances. If the Rabbonim want to be respected and listened to there's a lot that has to come first. There is no way they will make progress by approaching woman this way.

Another problem is that it is only the woman being addressed. Whats with the men? Many woman dress the way they do because their husbands like it and don't feel there's anything wrong. So many men dont even know the laws of tznius. Why is that? The Hanholos of the Yeshivas are so afraid to teach the boys topics that might give them "Machshovos Zoros". Really? Who are we fooling? The youth of today can find out anything they want within second with the technology that is so easily available.

May Hashem grant ALL of us the strength of character to do the right thing.

(7/9/2017 12:04:15 AM)
20
Surprised
What's up with the negative reactions?!?! There is no halachik excuse for the way some ppl don't cover up outside. If someone is doing something wrong at least they should not flaunt it publicly!
(7/9/2017 12:08:24 AM)
21
Leggings
What about leggings?
(7/9/2017 12:08:34 AM)
22
Not clear
It seems from the images like this list was compiled by women in Eretz Yisroel. The Israeli Rabbis endorsed it and now the CH Rabbis did too.
COL, please don't make it seem as if these esteemed Rabbis sat down to make guidelines about nail polish and sheitel length.
(7/9/2017 12:09:55 AM)
23
Thank you!
Although it's hard, it's nice that the rabbanim are setting clear guidelines!
(7/9/2017 12:10:13 AM)
24
Someone
What's happening to the women who don't follow? And why are the rabbinim getting involved in a girls dress code? And the girls that are dressing that way. Don't really care what the rav has to say regardless!
(7/9/2017 12:12:43 AM)
25
Yankel Todres
B"H

It would appear from the comments that this truly is a matter of the greatest importance. Otherwise, why would the Yetzer Hora be expending such huge amounts of energy to fight against it!

You don't hear all the women complaining that the men (the Rabbonim) are trying to tell them if a chicken is kosher or not. You don't hear them complaining that men decide if a Sefer Torah is kosher or not. They wouldn't even try to dispute the laws of Taharas Hamishpocha, because they were interpreted by men.

Here, they decide that only a Female Rabbi could properly interpret the Halacha. The many Brochas that are promised for behaving in a Tzniusdicke manner show us how important this issue is.

May the Al-Mighty enlighten each and every one of us, so that we become worthy vessels for all the wonderful blessings that he wishes to bestow upon us.
(7/9/2017 12:13:28 AM)
26
guys perspective
remember what guys really like are truly ztienuz women because if not then we will look at other women and not focus on our wife which as for me serve as inspiration and my spiritual hero even if it's 100 degrees outside it's because we love them and they shouldn't feel invasive because there issues that from men's part too are exposed but everything needs to be looked at with the right eye. I feel really saddened by how so many chabad women feel so against this article, adaraba it should inspire them to do just a little more for the llove of themselves and their families and hope their perspective change and we as men will also do our part .
(7/9/2017 12:17:58 AM)
27
LA Morah
So from most of the above posters,we see how vitally important tzneeus is. If it weren't, people wouldn't have such strong opinions attempting to validate being untznneus.
(7/9/2017 12:20:05 AM)
28
So men get off scott free...
Why is it that men have no rules? Such a chutzpah. This makes me, as a tznius women want to gag. Some of these rules are insane.
(7/9/2017 12:27:39 AM)
29
women are the mirror of men
All Rabonim need to deal with issues like Get & Agunot , child poverty and single parents support , and other to make community Great again .... then women will wear differnt clothing as a reflection of Rabonim & men good deeds
(7/9/2017 12:29:51 AM)
30
Bring on the minis
I love that skirts now must be OVER the knee. A full ten cm! Phew. It's gonna be hot in crown heights!
(7/9/2017 12:31:19 AM)
31
Davening
I daven for the day that everyone will have the clarity and desire to be tzniuse.

(7/9/2017 12:47:49 AM)
32
To #16
You are so right!
(7/9/2017 12:52:00 AM)
33
Mitzva voters mitzva etc.
One of the problems with lack of tznius is that it doesn't stop there.when you break the rules of tznius you break other rules too.let's be honest.
There is a reason for tznius. It's a stepping stone for other areas in yiddishkeit. May hashem save this community.
(7/9/2017 12:59:08 AM)
34
chabad houses
these rules are not followed by chabad houses?
(7/9/2017 1:02:50 AM)
35
Thank you!
I don't dress tzniuse to protect the man's sight and thought

I dress tzniuse because a woman's body is sanctified and it will be disrespectful to G-D, the body He gave me , and for myself if I expose what is meant to be hidden.

I thank Hashem daily for this special mitzvah I have that blesses me , my family, and all of klal yisrael.
(7/9/2017 1:03:29 AM)
36
Lighting up the golus
The Rebbe spoke many times that when we women dress tzniusdikly we protect the yiddin in Eretz Yisrael and around the world.
(7/9/2017 1:04:34 AM)
37
PRESUMPTIOUS
# 2
Do you honestly believe that baalei teshuva are the problem more than frum from birth?
Look at how gheze go around
(7/9/2017 1:13:40 AM)
38
The sad part
This is just straight Halacha.
(7/9/2017 1:14:45 AM)
39
# 2 oh please
don't start blaming the outsiders and the visitors ....
(7/9/2017 1:15:12 AM)
40
News Flash
The Rebbe was a man. He had very clear guidelines, he told us to turn to Rabbonim for Halacha. If you have a problem turning to men for guidance, then it's time to rethink your whole approach to Yiddishkeit. Yup, that simple.

If you want to pick and choose, that's your prerogative, however, let's not pretend that the uncovering knees and elbows and showing hair is ok according to Halacha.

Yes, Middos are important, yes, it's important that our children are safe, yes, it's important that we are honest, why are those attributes MORE IMPORTANT than Tznius? Because you struggle with it? We all have struggles, we also have a standard to uphold, a standard of representing the Rebbe.
(7/9/2017 1:15:15 AM)
41
I cry and yearn
For all those that oppose:

I cry for you and your soul.
I cry for the dark golus we are in.
I cry for how low we dropped.
I cry for how blinded we are.

I yearn for the day moshiach will come and we will have
A happy soul, lightness, and clarity.

And may that day be very near!
(7/9/2017 1:16:13 AM)
42
#7 ??
wonder what kind of thoughts men are supposed to have when on the way to shul mikvah yeshiva etc have to bump into so many untsniusdik people?
(7/9/2017 1:22:39 AM)
43
Men's tznius
If you read the tznius guidelines from Rav Schwei and Rav Braun it does mention men's tznius. They quote directly from the Rebbe how he was disgusted by men wearing shorts!

Also yes - there are many very valuable problems in crown heights- however the Rebbe has said many times that the foundation of yiddishkeit itself is the home. You would have to be blind to not see with the eroding of our level of tznius came the eroding of all mitzvos. If we are letting vogue and the runways in Paris dictate how we dress - is it to far to how we should act. Along with our rising hemlines has come the level of adultery in crown heights. In the secular world adultery has become more commonplace as the divorce levels rise. In yiddishkeit H-Shem has said it is one of those things we should die for rather than commit. Who are we baseing our decisions on- how we dress and our daughters dress on the Hollywood fashion models and their "values" or on our Holy Torah and our Values.

My only thing I would add to this is that we need to have positive examples. We are constantly told what not to do. Can we have a Rebbetzin(s) who show us how we should dress. Not having people from Monsey who don't follow our rules anyway but Lubavitchers who follow all the rules. Can we get stores in crown heights that only sell tznius clothing.
(7/9/2017 1:29:13 AM)
44
Schwei
Why didn't R' Schwei sign this letter? Does he disagree?
(7/9/2017 1:43:08 AM)
45
Not using nail polish is praise worthy
(Insert crying laughing emoji here)
Says who? G-d? The Torah?
Give me a break. That's a big load of poo poo.
(7/9/2017 1:55:39 AM)
46
Women's stuff
I find it interesting that whenever men in anyway get involved with women's issues they are silenced to say the least but but when women get involved with men's issues there isn't a peep outcry from men.
(7/9/2017 2:07:40 AM)
47
Rabbonim unity
Rabbonim have to show their unity . Respect and Ahavas Israel among themselves and then that are going to be considered
This goes for CH. Beis Din members
(7/9/2017 2:09:13 AM)
48
Questions
What other colors are considered bright and conspicuous? What if your skirt doesn't have a zipper- do you have to add one? Very vague about what constitutes items that draw attention.
Unfortunately, just like banning cigarettes was not done by Rabbanim because people wouldn't listen to it, the same holds for some of the tznius rules.
(7/9/2017 2:34:39 AM)
49
#7 spot on!
#7, you are spot on.
I am not against tznius. I dress tznius-ly myself.
But, there are so many issues with "imposters"
Those who look frum but truly are not on the inside.
That needs to be addressed. With men, too.
(7/9/2017 2:40:13 AM)
50
What about the MEN
Here we go again
I would love to see tzinius guidelines for men.
1. No jeans or tight pants.
2. Must button shirt al the way.
3. Must wear hat and jacket always.
4. Can't touch beard.
5. No funky glasses, No color socks, No shoes that bring attention,.................
And so on and so on!
Welcome to the new mei shorim
(7/9/2017 2:59:45 AM)
51
Honestly
The only thing this kind of list makes me want to do it strip off even more.
(7/9/2017 3:05:08 AM)
52
To comment 22
You need brushing up on basic reading comprehension skills. The title says that the Rabbis "endorsed" the letter.
In the article it says that it was written by nshei ubnos chabad.
(7/9/2017 3:05:17 AM)
53
#22
I agree. Very important point. Thanks for pointing out. COL it's really up to you to give unbiased information. As frum Jews yourself I would expect sheer transparency and honesty. But... Chaval that's too much to expect
(7/9/2017 3:24:11 AM)
54
What about the color of the cars
Can one drive a bright Red Flashy Lexus??? Men or woman alike. What about the tight jeans the guys wear ?
(7/9/2017 3:26:48 AM)
55
Minhag Hamokom
Clearly, Rabbi Segal is Israeli trying to bring Israel to America , and if he thinks it's gonna work he's out to lunch. And Rabbi Ossoba is not in touch with his crowd. ( and if he had a crowd, he lost it)
(7/9/2017 3:31:26 AM)
56
Halacha first and foremost!
I think we'd all be happy if everyone kept halacha. These standards are so beyond that that I don't think people will be open. Try one inch below the knee before 4.
(7/9/2017 3:48:54 AM)
57
A woman knows
We should trust ourselves, our Jewish women's inner wisdom to guide us, everyone of us know in which situation we find ourselves, we are all different, we just have to try our best, with a genuine will to connect to G-d. This attitude makes more sense to me than all of those dressing codes together.
(7/9/2017 4:10:16 AM)
58
very put off at collive
Why are you writing something in such a condescending tone.
Do you not agree that as frum jews we need to be tznius.
If you have a personal issue, don't set a negative tone for all you countless readers
This time collive you really let me down
(7/9/2017 4:29:54 AM)
59
As a man ...
the worst thing and most important dress code that they should talk about is the really fitted clothing that makes the guy look at them twice or three and five times
(7/9/2017 4:39:16 AM)
60
Unbeliveable
Every time I see so many positive and thoughtull comments about differenet subjects: music clips, tragedies, Israel etc. But look what happend now? If you read all the cooments again you wil be shocked! Didn't you know the corrent status is teribble? Suddenly rabbis don't know what they are saying?!
(7/9/2017 4:40:54 AM)
61
moshiach now
bh ad mosai?
(7/9/2017 5:14:39 AM)
62
#29 and others
Snius rules are not new. I lived in Crown Hieghts in the 80's, and everyone dressed like this. No one really had to tell us to. We knew this was the standard the Rebbe encouraged among our women. (i am not talking about outreach, and non-religious women coming to visit).
You say we first need to fix every other ill in society, and THEN women will dress snius out of respect for the Rabbonim? The halacha comes from TORAH. where is your respect for Torah? No, women will not dress properly, by some magical force, when other ills are fixed. Society is not perfect (neither are we women). but it IS our personal responsibility as JEWS to try and live according to halacha. Whether we like or respect an individual Rav or not, regardless of the other flaws in our community.
(7/9/2017 5:19:41 AM)
63
Tzniyus is a precious mitzvah
In letters to the hanhola of Chabad schools in eretz yisroel, the Rebbe more than once expressed his shita: that as Lubavitcher chassidim, vniflinu, we do not compromise our standards, although shlichus demands from us sometimes put ourselves into challenging situations, our tzniyus standards is just as high as the beis Yaakov schools, if not higher.

We are educated to become lamplighters, if we ourselves are not dugma chaya, how dare we inspire others to follow our example?

Coming from Parshas Bolok, bilaam says " , " , praising the tremendous tzniyus present by the yiddisher machane. That's what defines us as .

If only we would learn and appreciate the beauty of this mitzvah. The Rabbonim are the shoftim and shotrim Hashem placed amongst us to guide us to do the right things. Of course, we will follow their takanos with utmost anivus! We little people don't have the vast knowledge as the Rabbonim, so we often listen to our intuition, easily we dismiss a beautiful mitzvah because of what we believe as sensible. We become our own Rabbonim by giving ourselves a psak din , it's too hot to be tzniyus!

We should sincerely daven to Hashem that He should spare us from this tremendous nisayon and give us the koichos to always choose to do the right things!
(7/9/2017 5:36:02 AM)
64
SHAME ON US
very bad move for chabad community.
there are many subjects that need more attention.
let each jew find his/her own path in its pace. imposing standards wont solve ANYTHING and will make people angry.
This beis din is a joke and should be ashamed of themselves for bringing more self and outer hatred for disrespecting people's lifestyles.
we all know whats on the shulchan oruch - let them decide for themselves. educate your eyes, your loins and your children - dont force it upon our bnos yisroel
(7/9/2017 5:44:50 AM)
65
Stupid!
This is NOT going to make myself and others want to be Chabad!
(7/9/2017 5:57:20 AM)
66
Why different?
Ladies and gentlemen, tznius is halacha.

Just like avoiding pork, and keeping shabbos.

G-d said so. End of story. The Rabbis are just helping by providing details; THEY DIDN'T MAKE THIS UP! G-d did.

If you keep shabbos and kosher, dress tzniusly too. Plain and simple.

(The reason men aren't mentioned here - despite having tznius laws as well - is probably because most men in are community already dress tzniusly.)
(7/9/2017 6:44:45 AM)
67
I dont mean to offend but
Have you ever watched the non-Jewish men in the neighborhood "checking out" our women & girls? They are really enjoying what they see, and I am certain that no one here is trying to do that.
(7/9/2017 6:52:01 AM)
68
A born crown heightser
Instead of focusing on what other people do (specifically women which you should not be looking at to begin with), why not focus on bringing the beis Din and council and comunity back together ?
(7/9/2017 7:02:42 AM)
69
COLLAPSING HOUSE OF CARDS
While thousands of shluchim are truly doing holy work and bring countless Jews closer to Judaism in an a calm and non judgmental fashion, thousands of FFB lubavitch boys and girls are ABANDONING yiddshkeit! And I mean THOUSANDS! they are bitter, they are angry at a system that gave them ZERO skills for the REAL world.
So instead of focusing on trying to turn off even more of our children and enforcing rules, maybe it's time think about:

1) child molestation in the community, and about the pedophiles roaming our streets
2)married men have zero skills and joke careers and have to scam the government to simply get by. Thanks to a joke of an education system.
3) Time to address the fact that the shlichus boat is full and to stop brainwashing our kids that shlichus is the only meaningful path in life. And instead PREPARE our kids to be able to SUPPORT their future families!
(7/9/2017 7:08:05 AM)
70
to 36
Please provide sources!
(7/9/2017 7:11:11 AM)
71
To #29
When people observe primary mitzvos properly, they don't have to worry about those type of issues
(7/9/2017 7:29:22 AM)
72
Numer 37
Gezhe doesn't have anything to do with frum...
(7/9/2017 7:41:16 AM)
73
Let's cover all women with a black burka
Any even doing bh so may not be enough because it may appeal to some men
(7/9/2017 7:56:53 AM)
74
Amazing!
I think these rules are amazing, I personally have a too long shaitel and will figure something out to make it okay.
finally someone is standing up in Lubavitch !
(7/9/2017 7:58:56 AM)
75
What's the point
We all know the Halachos, that is not the cause of the problem, and this won't be the solution.
(7/9/2017 8:03:06 AM)
76
It's about time!
That the rabbonim take a stand and don't just allow despicable behavior. Kudos to them for standing always standing up for what's right and decent! Our community deserves rabbonim who are strong and supportive of what's right and are quick to condemn the wrong! Finally the terrible behaviors of community members will end, and our shchuna will once again be a place of kedusha and righteousness.
(7/9/2017 8:06:06 AM)
77
Letter states "Preferred" but not obligatory
There have been numerous cases in Jewish history where rabbis have tried to implement laws thatt were not adopted because the community never took apon themselves to accept.
I do not believe this letter will solve any of the problems our community faces... it's only going to fuel the fire
(7/9/2017 8:13:35 AM)
78
This will further make CH look like a Moderdox community
The more they try to make Crown Heights look like Williamsburg, the more it will look like Teaneck.
(I already don't wear wigs past my shoulders. I cover my knees elbows and don't go bare legged. I, too, am bothered by the Tznius Matzav in CH. But I do wear jean skirts and my sheitel is wavy. Occasionally my nail color isn't soft. I wear a lot of black but honestly should wear bright colors as they make me look prettier. Why make it harder for people like me to adhere to the community standards?! You will cause already-tznius people to appear rebellious and the rebellious ones will chafe further from these draconian measures. It may seem counter-intuitive but these new over-zealous rules will backfire. Guaranteed. )
(7/9/2017 8:14:52 AM)
79
Living in a Sephardic community
Interesting I recently moved to a predominantly Sephardic religious community, the elbows and necklines are are usually uncovered and majority of women wear tichels or large fabric headbands never shaitles. But what I noticed is they are more tznius than the average chabad woman because they don't dress provocatively. I'm often asked this by my new found Sephardi friends how are super tight clothing that cover all the right parts or super model shaitles considered more tznius. The problem is that today's role models, which the average person is a shlucha dresses in this matter as well. I found the Sephardic community were better role models for tznius even in short sleeves than being part of a chabad community.
(7/9/2017 8:22:23 AM)
80
To #25
Did you mean Pinchas Todres?
(7/9/2017 8:25:04 AM)
81
Blaming
To those that say that these guidelines will make them dress even worse: you are responsible for your own actions just as you alone are responsible for the rest of the mitzvos. These guidelines are meant for people who actually want to follow Halacha. Rabbanim put out guidelines for a broad variety of topics quite frequently for the benefit of those that choose to learn and follow torah laws. Why col chose to publicize specifically these is a different question. But to say that what rabbonim say will make you "strip more" indicates a lack of caring about anything they say. That goes to show that Tznius DOES reflect on a person's general keeping of mitzvos. So stop blaming and stop making excuses or conditions. Not covering up is wrong so stop trying to justify it
(7/9/2017 8:25:15 AM)
82
Stop yentering about others look inside urself first
Why dont we focuse on the real issues like no mini skirts or short sleeves with cleavage showing . The rest is irrelevant next to the above besides why are so many yentes constantly barking on about everyone elses tznuis and forgetting to stop fixing others but to look inside of them selves first and work on there loshon hara and judgy ways we change the world by changeing ourselves stop judgeing others and just bc u dress like a frump or elegantly tznuisdik diesnt make ur scanadalous ways ok
(7/9/2017 8:28:11 AM)
83
How about a letter for the men
Tell the male community to wear black sunglasses if tights and boots r an issue .. get a grip
(7/9/2017 8:32:30 AM)
84
yossi S
I would like to see a set of rules that enforce the end of the machloikes between the CH rabbis. As of now I do not respect these rabbis as they cannot respect the simplist rule of resolving a dispute between two jews, let alone "righteous people".
(7/9/2017 8:37:01 AM)
85
Wigs
How dare you forbid anything besides wigs halacha says to cover hair tbere are wonen who cannot wear wigs and if they choose to cover there hair properly with sonthing else thats fine
(7/9/2017 8:38:23 AM)
86
Confused BT
I grew up wearing pants and in a very secular environment but I am modest by nature, so that's the type of friends I had. Only after becoming frum and living in CH was I made to feel uncomfortable by the lack of modesty. I'm not speaking of elbows and collarbones but so much more. The seedy basement subculture of the ch youth, I was exposed to Moore drugs, untznius behavior there than ever in my secular world. Than the lack of modest speech in ch, I've heard more judgement, racism, lashon hara and baseless hate more in ch than from the non Jewish life I left behind. Eventually I moved to move oot but was surprised to find most young newly married shluchim struggle with the same tznius issues themselves, have tvs and listen to secular music. It's been a disheartening journey only to realize that no one group has the answers and it's all about the individual. Some of the most modest, kindest, least judgmental, full of chesed and middos people I've known I've encountered in my not religious days.

After this journey I realized that tznius must start from the inside not the outside. How we talk to each other, how we think about ourselves and others. Only from truely internalizing out connection with Hashem and truly internalize ahavas yisroel, will most other external community problems be solved.

Unfortunately the heads and role models of the community are to blame and keep using a broken method that's been proven to push people further away.
(7/9/2017 8:38:42 AM)
87
High heels
As a baal teshuva woman in Crown Heights I am ok with this, but I also realize it is the taiva of our generation. I'm a little surprised that nothing was said about spike and platform high heels. Maybe if women realized what a huge problem it is to tempt someone to sin, because of the way we are dressed. Yes! We need to take responsiblity for our actions!!!! Is that so shocking? A man could G-d forbid stumble to sin because of they way WE dress. That means, according to the Zohar, that we could have lots of children that are trapped in klippot and follow our coffin if we don't do teshuva! G-d forbid, lo aleinu!!! This is very serious. Set aside your ego, and think about how the way you dress affects other people. It's like second hand smoke. What about the Bais Rivka girl who dresses tznius and who's mother dresses tznius, yet she sees a woman at 770 wearing a short, tight dress with platform heels and NO ONE SAYS ANYTHING TO HER!!! Its like reverse sexual harrasment. Praying for our community to have the strength to overcome this taiva.
(7/9/2017 8:41:54 AM)
88
chabad house
Tznius Rules is for every chabad house
(7/9/2017 8:52:26 AM)
89
Why?
Do you ever wonder WHY our Rabbonim don't have the power to go after child molesters or men who refuse to give gets. It is THIS! Their power comes from us. If we won't listen to them when they give a psak Din - how can they use the power of Torah to do anything????

I am hearing the same excuses for tznius as I hear from the conservatives. It is too hard. Please change Torah to fit modernity. Ten years ago no one would have blinked at these rules. What will be in another ten years? Will they have to publicize rules c"vs that say we should light before dark on fridays and not eat pork? Before men decided to dress like goyim us women changed our dress. They follow our lead. We need to take back Lubavitch! It needs to be "cool" and "in" to follow Halacha again.
(7/9/2017 8:54:22 AM)
90
Parents who have followed the laws ...
I know many many parents who have been super strict with txnius with their kids growing up,from big , Lubavitch families. Not only did it not bring blessings to their home,but half of their kids totally left yiddishkeit. By that I mean,virtually keep no laws,tnius being the least of their worries right now. So the whole blessing thing if you keep the strictest tznius laws is nonsense. I can give you so many examples of the opposite. How about we start with people should be nice to one another. Good hearts. Tzedakah,helping fellow struggling people mentally. So many things I can think of before I would make sure the back of the curve of my neck is covered. Seriously! We are beginning to sound like Taliban. Rabbis can not enforce these laws. They are not law. And never will be.uiu can kick kifd out if schools,so the parents will just find more modern schools for them.
(7/9/2017 8:58:18 AM)
91
MRS PERL ARBOR
# 65. GOOD RIDDANCE THEN

#72. HAS EVERYTHING TO DO WITH FFB AND THE WAY THEY THINK THERE IS ONE HALOCHO IN TZNIUS FOR GHEZE AND ONE FOR BAALEI TESHUVA AND NON GHEZE
(7/9/2017 9:03:35 AM)
92
to #48
What the zipper rule about skirts is that if a skirt has a zipper, as opposed to elastic, it should not be ornamental or zip in the front like trousers but should be inconspicuous and be at the back or side of the skirt. As to what constitutes loud or conspicuous colors, it pays to have a group of ladies who would make a volunteer vaad who could answer questions that women have about their clothes, jewelry, shoes or cosmetics. These women could make themselves available to either shop with someone who was unsure about these items or who could come to their homes and answer questions about the fit or color of the clothing. They would be available only to those who wanted the advice and would not push it on people that did not ask for their advice. Some people actually want to keep these laws and publicizing them will be beneficial to those who do. I think that collive.com is correct to publicize this and we should not think that just because some will rebel more, that others won't take it to heart.
(7/9/2017 9:04:11 AM)
93
DONT BITE THE HAND THAT FEEDS IT
#44
NO GUTS THATS WHY
(7/9/2017 9:07:18 AM)
94
Big brother
Big Brother is watching you:
War is Peace.
Freedom is slavery.
Ignorance is strength.
(7/9/2017 9:08:18 AM)
95
thank you
thank you
(7/9/2017 9:11:43 AM)
96
out of town rabbonim
how come rabbis shusterman, bell, raskin,marlow, shapiro, liberman, richik, labvosky haven't commented???
is this only for ny???
(7/9/2017 9:17:05 AM)
97
well written
i read these halachos carefully when i received it in the mail. was impressed that it was written in a sensitive yet clear manner, and realize how much work was put in by nshei chabad of eretz yisroel to prepare this
it is sad to read so many negative comments, even if dressing tzniusly is a nisayon for some women and girls, everyone can find one small area or more to improve in
(7/9/2017 9:31:44 AM)
98
I DO IT...FOR YOU
We have laughed and cried together;

journeyed and struggled together;

doing our best to support each other;

and through tznius...I give you the greatest gifts

a wife can wish for her husband...

I do it...for you.



I have fed and clothed you,

held and encouraged you.

I have cried and prayed for you,

and through tznius...I give you the greatest gifts

a mother can wish for her children...

I do it...for you.



I have climbed mountains and reached their peaks.

I've traversed valleys, unsure of my way;

but through it all, deeply yearning to reach, to connect to, my truest self.

Through tznius...I give myself the

greatest gifts one can hope for...

I do it...for me.



Living in the Holy Land,

filled with kedusha; surrounded by evil.

With pride, you walk the land of our forefathers.

Through tznius...I give you the greatest gifts

one Jew can give another...

I do it...for you.



Hashem Above,

who grants me life and guides each step,

who knows my heart and holds my hand,

and through tznius...has given me the greatest gifts

a father can give His child...

I do it, Hashem...for You.

Sara
(7/9/2017 9:45:10 AM)
99
In the Rebbes words
By the Grace of G-d

21st of Kislev, 5730

Brooklyn, N.Y.

Miss

New York, N.Y.

Blessing and Greeting:

I duly received your letter with the enclosed tzedakah contributed by your group of girls. Enclosed are the receipts.

May G-d grant that the zechus of the tzedakah should stand each and every one of you individually and all together in good stead for the fulfillment of your hearts desires for good in all your needs.

I hope you will have an inspiring Chanukah, especially in light of the fact that Jewish women had a significant role in the miracle of Chanukah, as you surely know. The womens contribution began with their self-sacrificing determination to observe the laws of tznius and extended to the whole area of Torah and mitzvos. Be it remembered that in these days they were confronted with a trend which had swept not only non-Jewish nations, but unfortunately also a substantial part of the Jewish people who called themselves Hellenists, faithfully following the customs and fashions of the day as set by the Greek culture prevailing at that time.

An event in Jewish history, particularly one that has been eternalized by a mitzvah, especially for eight consecutive days, surely must provide food for thought, not only as an important historic event, but also and especially, as one that has a pertinent and timely significance for our own day and age. This should also make it easier to overcome whatever difficulties there may be, whether real or imaginary, to do so with confidence, joy and gladness of heart.

The message of Chanukah for Jewish girls and women is that they should not allow themselves to be influence by the environment, even though they are few and weak (as mentioned in Al Hanissim). Victory will be theirs if they assume a strong and determined posture, the benefit of it will be not only for them but for the entire Jewish people, indeed for all future generations, as was the case with Chanukah.

Surely it is unnecessary to elaborate to you at length as to the cult of the ancient Greeks, which was to worship physical strength and beauty, discarding all modesty. So shameless they became in their conduct, that they ascribed the same obscenities and vulgarity to their pagan gods, as is well known from their mythology.

In light of the above, the issue insofar as Jewish girls are concerned, is not merely the length of a dress, whether it be longer or shorter, but the fact that following the trend of the non-Jewish cult means subservience to it all along the line.

Secondly, this is not a personal matter where a Jewish girl can think it is a matter of her own to so as she pleases, but it has far-reaching implications involving other girls and is indeed a matter of concern for all our Jewish people.

Thirdly, there is no basis to think that what can a girl do in the face of such a majority and a trend, etc. The message of Chanukah provides the answer in regard to all three mentioned points.

I hope and pray that those girls who have shown strength and independence in the matter of tznius, will continue to do so even with greater strength while those who have not seen the matter in the true light of the Torah until now, will begin to do so from now on and will continue in the right direction, going from strength to strength in accordance with the teachings of the Chanukah lights, which are kindled in growing numbers from day to day.

Although this letter has been addressed to you in reply to your letter, both your letter as well as the reply are, of course, intended in behalf of the entire group. I hope, therefore, that you will bring it to the attention of each and every one of the group and that it will help you and them in your determination to show a living example to other girls and groups as to what the proper thinking and conduct of a Jewish girl should be. In this way we may be certain in the eventual victory of light over darkness and the realization of Al Hanissim in our own time, to its very conclusion, to give thanks and praise to Your great Name.

Wishing you and all your friends a happy and inspiring Chanukah,

With blessings,
(7/9/2017 9:49:33 AM)
100
Shame on you
Commenters should be ashamed of themselves for denigrating Talmudei chachmim. How dare you insult them for following G-d's Torah and the the Rebbe's guidance e on this issue.

To #64: did you ever wonder why we have problems such as divorce, agunos, children going OTD, etc.? I believe the lack of tznius is a direct correlation to these problems.
(7/9/2017 9:51:17 AM)
101
Dear Bubbie #16
Bravo to you! All these lectures, whether from Rabbonim or N'shei Chabad (whom, I might say, tend to be fahfrumpt and dowdy and out of touch) won't achieve their goals. They will, however, drive women & girls to the other extreme.

Like you, I am very careful about tzniut - yesterday for example, even though it was pushing 100*, I changed from a thin cardigan to a linen jacket because I just felt it wasn't "quite right." Did I shvitz? I sure did, but I wasn't worried in shul that I was "underdressed." I like my nail polish. I like my cheerful clothing. And so? All my daughters are very fashionable, but ALWAYS tzanua.

Instead of pontificating, maybe N'shei needs to change its attitude along with its hierarchy. They are so far behind the times! Perhaps they need to invite young women to their group who are popular with the girls, who always look lovely, who make us smile rather than shudder when we see them.

Is it so terrible to wear a colorful shirt if it's not figure-hugging? If it has sleeves and buttons up? A pencil skirt that is long enough doesn't have to be tight.

Lastly... why don't N'shei & the Rabbonim demonstrate outside the stores that stock clothes that aren't "appropriate"? Have any of you gone with the owners to dress shows to look at clothes that meet the tzanua standards yet are pretty and comfortable? No? Maybe it's time you did.

signed, Another Bubby
(7/9/2017 9:51:55 AM)
102
If and then game?
So many commentators seem fixated on other problems being resolved before focusing on tznius. Kind of like saying "if everything and everyone were perfect then we can talk about tznius". But life isn't an if and then game and life will never be perfect until moshiach comes. We need to keep mitzvos without making deals with Hashem. Especially the mitzvah of tznius which we know brings down brochos in all areas of our lives. Hatzlacha to all in withstanding this tremendous nisayon without making excuses or waiting for others to improve first.
(7/9/2017 9:52:45 AM)
103
to #14
Lack of tznius very much does impact the shidduch crisis as much as lack of frum men does. I find it either comical or disturbing when a woman who is lax in tznius declares that she will only date men who never miss minyon, are kovea itim in Torah study, or are careful not to miss Rambam or Chitas. Why on earth would such a frum guy want a girl who can't figure out where to get a skirt that covers her knees? These girls might become shidduch crisis statistics if they don't find a seamstress asap and get their skirts lengthened, or else be more open-minded to similarly committed men. The mothers of very frum guys won't let their sons near the girls who wear short skirts, no stockings, etc.
(7/9/2017 9:53:11 AM)
104
The equalizer
The heading of this article should read The Three Rabbonim of our community and of our Beis Din , sign etc....
(7/9/2017 9:54:08 AM)
105
Another Bubby again
After writing my previous comment I looked at the different news items on COL. I looked at photographs of a few recent wedding and it struck me... how often the Chossen, his siblings, family and friends have nary a whisker. Yes, I know Rabbi Wiener is buckey on "trimming" but the hypocrisy of the critics who address issues of how women dress to the point of obsession is disgusting. You always attack US - the female gender. When do you ever speak to the men who shave, who wear tight clothing (THAT is OK, it seems), who obviously don't wear tzitzit? The ones who wear T-shirts with slogans, jeans, skintight trousers? Mini kapotes (if they bother to wear them at all)?

Look at the wedding photos & tell me.... do some of these young men look tzanua to you? They don't to me. Be consistent & start addressing men who don't follow dress codes.
(7/9/2017 10:06:28 AM)
106
Please clarify
What color pantyhose/stockings is one allowed to wear? I don't understand what 20 deniers means.
I thought the halacha is as long as a skirt covers one's knees when one is sitting - that to me does not seem to be 4" - seems like less than that can cover the knees when sitting.
Just like this letter comes from men who are concerned about tznius, the men in the household - the fathers and the husbands - need to also encourage their daughters and wives to be more tznius. The men need to learn the halachos and the sichos of the Rebbe about tznius so they can encourage their daughters (and sons) and wives (and themselves) in this area.
I agree something needs to be said about the tight pants boys and men wear. It does not look Jewish.
(7/9/2017 10:13:03 AM)
107
What a load of...
I want to say rubbish. Crap. BS. How about we focus on why the beis din is establishing these rules? How do they know how women are dressing when their eyes are averted? But lm not surprised, so many charlatan rabbanim are posing as halachisists when what they really need to do is a din v'cheshbon on their own middos.
(7/9/2017 10:21:07 AM)
108
to #69
There are a variety of social ills in the frum community, not only in the CH community and these have been addressed and there are solutions in place, if the community implements them. The emphasis on tznius doesn't mean that we don't address how to make a living without scamming the government and if you look at some past posts on collive.com, there were some links to address the employment issue. Are you waiting for rabbonim to tell you that you have to make a living? Their job is to tell you how to follow the halacha and whether you listen or not is up to you. And yes, there will always be rabbonim out there who emphasize kollel, shlichus, or some other type of klei kodesh choice, over a secular career or profession but it is up to you to take your advice from mashpiim who understand where you are in terms of that and how you can be frum and earn a living at the same time.
(7/9/2017 10:33:07 AM)
109
to #101
I didn't see anything in the list that said that women couldn't wear colors; only that the colors couldn't be so bright as to be attention seeking. It also didn't totally nix nail polish; only those colors that again, are attention seeking. I don't think that we need public demonstrations against stores because those stores can sell to both Jews and non-Jews as well as sell clothing that can be lengthened or adapted so that it is tznius on the wearer. The people who are commenting here are turned off to the idea of tznius police who shut down businesses who don't conform and it would probably cause more of our young people to reject the idea of tznius. If you don't like what is in the CH stores, Williamsburg is less than 3 miles away by bus. You don't have to patronize those stores that don't have clothing that is up to your standards.
(7/9/2017 10:42:21 AM)
110
Boys don't go out with untniusdik girls
They will only cause you problems. After they are married they will flirt with you friends. Make sure the girl is 100pct tznisdik before you go out.
(7/9/2017 10:46:22 AM)
111
Hammer much
I believe in tznuis. Hiwever, you have to know your crowd. For example the length of a sheitle. 1. Is this halacha? 2. Yes some woman wear it a long lent because they think it's attractivd, however these woman are likely not to cover their hair at all if they don't wear a sheitel they think they look good in so if this is the case which way to you want to go? Tell them to shorten their wigs or have them toss the wigs altogether? I use this as an example but it can be applied to othet things as well
You cannot hammer this thing it won't work. You have to find a way to make tznuis beautiful. To make that attractive and classy and want to strive for it. I dont know why that is such a hard concept to understand
The way things are going I am surprised girls aren't wearing pants. How about a little kindness instead of judgement. Instead of suspending a girl for a button being open ( which by the way only gives her a day off to go shopping ) ask her to please button uopin school as that is how we feel beautiful girls should pride themselves in their dress and how the school would like them to represent the school and the beautiful mitzvah they are trying to convey. And tell them you know it's personally difficult for them but you take pride in them for making such an effort and that they are old enough and smart enough to understand and comply, in school and we really hope that outside if school they cintinue to make the effort. It would go a long way for them to want to do it. To feel it is something to accomplish and being trusted. Ever try that?
(7/9/2017 10:46:39 AM)
112
To #2 - re: ba'al teshuvas
I live in a very large Lubavitch community, and those of us who are ba'al teshuvas always comment on how you can tell whether or not someone is FFB...by looking at the length of the skirt and the height of their heels. FFB's wear the shortest skirts and the highest heels.

You're living in an illusion if you think it's those of us who actually chose this life.
(7/9/2017 10:47:42 AM)
113
to #64
Don't assume that everyone knows these halachas or that everyone who logs onto this site has a frum background. You can't imagine the variety of people who log onto these websites who really don't know and it is not a good idea to make fun of rabbonim who serve the community and again, why put them down to those who are new to the community and want to follow the halacha?
(7/9/2017 10:48:00 AM)
114
Dearest, Most Dearest Angry Commenters...
If you have ever gone to shul and seen it, you know what a sefer Torah is. If you don't know what it is, let me tell you.
It's not a story book, yet it tells many stories of the past. Not a prison manual, yet it commands us so many things that make us feel confined.
The purpose: to teach us
G-d gave US this Torah so WE can learn from it, take in its many lessons, adhere to its beautiful commandments.
Beautiful, yes.
G-d created the world, He is the Source and the Creator of beauty.
He knows what a beautiful world is.
And He writes it inside His Torah.
Our job: to try our best to follow His instructions.
Because He hates us? Never. Hashem loves us to a point that He wants us to be good people who do good to ourselves and for others.
How? By following His Torah
HIS Torah.
No one else can try and recreate it. It is One and the same.
Unfortunately it is hard for our simple minds to understand the depth of Torah.
Hashem gave us help: Rabbis.
Their job, to take Torah and explain it to us.
Anger, spite, don't come on their own. We create them by the different conflicting emotions that are inside us.
It's hard to be tznius.
We all agree.
Even those who don't find it their primary struggle agree that it is hard.

No one said life was going to be easy.

Perfection? Don't seek it.
One step, one baby step at a time.

The first step: acknowledgement.
We need to look ourselves in the mirror and say:
I am not perfect. I struggle with ___________. But I want to be the best I can be.
Because I love myself, but I love G-d more.
(7/9/2017 11:05:05 AM)
115
click bait
lol...
(7/9/2017 11:12:25 AM)
116
Let's start with men
As soon as the men become upstanding tznius in thought speech and action and follow through on the kesuba they signed then the women will do whatever you tell them to. As far as I'm concerned the rebbe said to follow kitzur shulchan aruch and there are no such laws in there. The only thing it says there is that tznius applies equally to both genders.
(7/9/2017 11:14:51 AM)
117
Thin line between modesty and vulgarity
However, women who dress rather 'too modestly', are also apt to suffer negative public ridicule in the form of verbal abuse, crude gestures, etc. Besides, a young woman is formed to display her facial and physical beauty to attract males, within certain guidelines of course. Men will always look at attractive women, if they are that way inclined, whatever 'the rabbis' dictate. It's called nature: get over it.
(7/9/2017 11:21:45 AM)
118
Big deal over nothing
This is again crown heightsers makig a big deal over nothing. Yes there is those women who have mesiros nefesh in the winter to specifically be NOT tznius, especially around Yud Shvat time. But, that is really. Why do you dress immodestly, then wonder why men are staring at you. Don't show off half of your body, then get angry when you get inappropriate comments. Use your brains. It is not so hard to be half-tznius. You don't have to follow these exact rules, but the basics of tznius should be implemented.
Lchaim!
(7/9/2017 11:26:57 AM)
119
Msme
Wait ok I understand but what about the guys? You know those tight skinny jeans that show off all the ahem curves? And the v neck tees showing just enough tanned chest? And the short sleeves that show off those manly muscles that drive women crazy. What about them??
(7/9/2017 11:31:47 AM)
120
to #106
the package of stockings says what the denier thickness is on the label, in other words, how sheer the fabric is. The color must simply be dark enough not to look as though the person is not wearing hosiery.
(7/9/2017 11:42:50 AM)
121
Ahsreinu
We Lubavitchers were never the ones to focus on the 'negative'. Be tznius, each person should do the best they can. For one it means she will start covering her knees, for the other it will go from 2 inches to 4 below the knee, the other it will be a skirt all together. A list of rules is for the misnagdim. It always was about the details of negativity. You can't do this and you can't do this. Be tznius! and do the best you can. A list of rules that are basically impossible for todays women to follow is not the derech of the Rebbe. Women should not be 'turned off' by the rules that are supposed to be for her. Share inspirational stories about tznius...not the nitty gritty rules that never worked in the first place. And for color nail polish, women in 770 in the 1970's and 80's wore red...and it wasn't an issue.....We should be singing Ashreinu that the REbbe teaches us to focus on the positive! Lists of Rules that are HYPER SENSITIVE FOR WOMEN ACROSS THE GLOBE is WORTHLESS and only harmful!
Inspire the women and teach the women the beauty. Don't just give the list of rules as numbers on a paper.
"Koh Somar Libeis Yaakov Vitagid Libnei Yisroel."
LEt the men get the list of rules with what is okay and what is not. Let the women be inspired.
L'chaim!
(7/9/2017 11:56:03 AM)
122
The root of the problem...
Unfortunately, tznius "chutzpah" in men and women is coming from the same place as all the angry posts on this thread. The root is a deep anger about the hypocrisy, the administrative issues in schools, the outward "tznius" of many leaders (both male and female) while doing horrible things and allowing horrible things - especially to children. This seems so obvious. People are rebelling. They're mad. Of course #98 is beautiful and very high level. But for most people who grew up in a corrupt system, a deeper healing must take place first in order to get to that lofty level.
(7/9/2017 12:25:35 PM)
123
To #99 RE The Rebbe's Words
That was the Rebbe's letter to the Stern College girls via Rabbi Metzger. Hmmmm. How'd you happen upon that?
(7/9/2017 12:34:24 PM)
124
Reaction
The whole reason they came out with this altogether
Is bc ...
(7/9/2017 12:59:47 PM)
125
Backfiring in a big way
These proclamations will only cause rebellion and resentment.
(7/9/2017 1:09:26 PM)
126
Vomit
cult
kəlt/
noun
a system of religious veneration and devotion directed toward a particular figure or object.
"the cult of St. Olaf"
a relatively small group of people having religious beliefs or practices regarded by others as strange or sinister.
"a network of Satan-worshiping cults"
synonyms: sect, denomination, group, movement, church, persuasion, body, faction
"a religious cult"
a misplaced or excessive admiration for a particular person or thing.
"a cult of personality surrounding the leaders"
synonyms: obsession with, fixation on, mania for, passion for, idolization of, devotion to, worship of,
1.1 A relatively small group of people having religious beliefs or practices regarded by others as strange or as imposing excessive control over members.
(7/9/2017 1:14:27 PM)
127
to #122
Not everyone who is lax in tznius is doing so out of rebellion to hypocrisy. Some people simply want to be more comfortable, more attractive, or fit in to a particular crowd and will tell you that they never personally experienced any trauma from hypocrites or personally feel any need to rebel. In other words, curing people of their innate humanity, won't make wearing tznius clothes more appealing and that is why it is considered such a tremendous mitzvah. Yes, it requires mesiras nefesh.
(7/9/2017 1:30:07 PM)
128
#6 and #12
You know, I do not think we should keep kosher. It's too inconvenient and it is controlled by Rabbinical tyrants. I can buy treif meat at 1/2 the price.

All the people who pasken halacha are men. Maybe we should not listen to the Beis Yosef because he was a man. The Rebbe was a man. FEH! men. These same men tell women how to dress at home. Heck, the even control their fellow men, telling them how to act in the bathroom! How about all these "chabad" women who are making these complaints make a new movement:"the open-orthodox-reform chabad rejects." Do not call yourself frum if you make those taines. They are against everything the Rebbe and other poskim wrote as well as daas torah. The letter is not authoritarian at all, btw. It says many positive things about tzius.
(7/9/2017 1:44:41 PM)
129
Anonymous
This is why we have reform and conservative.
Thank you :)
(7/9/2017 1:46:47 PM)
130
and the men?
why are there no rules for the men. I commend the Rabbi's on speaking out about the womens tznius. But the men are also a problem. the amount of men walking around in jeans and a tshirt or shorts is too much. the men also need standards. As well as the boys who are walking around in skinny jeans of bright colors and shorts.
(7/9/2017 1:51:19 PM)
131
Hypocracy
So you want "tznius" for my wife to meet your agenda.
1st, what about all the Chasdidim driving luxury cars (infinity,Mercedes,etc). Oh yeah, what about all the Chasdidim living in Mansions.
That for sure is not Tzinius or modest.
People used to make fun of chabad, saying it was a cult.
These tznius rules remind me of those claims.
I don't know what to say now, but the hypocracy of these Tzinius rules and the rabbonim are terrible.
(7/9/2017 1:52:24 PM)
132
like 122 said
the hypocrisy of the rabbinic is not to be believed

abuse menalim allowed to retire instead of being prosecuted for abuse

you want a job in lubavitcher office then you better be related
you don't need talent you need to be a member of the family

shlichus the same thing

i would like to see rabbi kotlarsky send this out to all th shaluchos out there and see the response
and no speakers at the Kinus if they aren't dressed according to this pamphlet

now lets see some guts
(7/9/2017 1:55:46 PM)
133
Can we talk?
A bubbling cauldron of seething emotions going on here.
Perhaps we might start with BASICS?
What is the letter of the law?
What is the spirit of the law?
What is the difference?
Why are either / both important to you - as a Jewish and so-called observant girl or woman?
What are some ways that we can positively reinforce modesty in though, speech, and action within our community?
As an aside: I was somewhat surprised when I recently saw col posting certain pics related to a sports event in Crown Heights.
An elbow parade and tichels exposing hair of married women does not promote increased modesty whatsoever.
Wishing us all the strength to take the highest road!
(7/9/2017 1:59:24 PM)
134
Not getting it
Like many are saying I don't understand y these same rabbonim don't take care of a lot other issues that are as important and we all know what those are.
(7/9/2017 2:04:47 PM)
135
#6 and #12
You know, I do not think we should keep kosher. It's too inconvenient and it is controlled by Rabbinical tyrants. I can buy treif meat at 1/2 the price.

All the people who pasken halacha are men. Maybe we should not listen to the Beis Yosef because he was a man. The Rebbe was a man. FEH! men. These same men tell women how to dress at home. Heck, the even control their fellow men, telling them how to act in the bathroom! How about all these "chabad" women who are making these complaints make a new movement:"the open-orthodox-reform chabad rejects." Do not call yourself frum if you make those taines. They are against everything the Rebbe and other poskim wrote as well as daas torah. The letter is not authoritarian at all, btw. It says many positive things about tzius.

And to those who say "this makes us not want to be chabad" (number 65, that's you), so don't be chabad! go to modern orthodox or reform where no evil male rabbonim will tell you what to do. A
Part of being frum is listening to rabbonim, and no chabad rov ever matired the miniskirts, long wigs and nail polish that is so prevalent in chabad today.

Baalei teshivah and people who are not holding by these standards will progress by themselves, but that does not mean that we have to throw out the Torah because "thay are not holding there."
(7/9/2017 2:06:07 PM)
136
Former Crown Heightser
I left Crown Heights a few years ago and they are still yammering on about tznius. It's almost comical to watch. Three old men in beards sitting behind closed doors deciding what women should put on their bodies and using holy books as a pretense for their sexism. What gives these men with long beards the authority to tell women what to do? As soon as I hear a man telling a woman what to do with her body, I lose all respect for that person. It's even worse when it comes under the pretense of religiosity and righteousness. Don't we have more important issues to deal with? The irony here is they think they will actually inspire change. All they do is inspire those who are already aligned with their beliefs and turn off those that are already turned off by all this garbage.
(7/9/2017 2:10:04 PM)
137
Dont date non tznius girls
Watch out young men dont date non tznius girls. Ask the shadchan. dont get talked into it and if you do drop them like a hot potato.
(7/9/2017 2:14:57 PM)
138
Look how destructive non tznius behave was with the story of Zimri
Tznius is the foundation of Torah -
(7/9/2017 2:21:14 PM)
139
Really?
How about they focus more on what is going inside the house loke parenting advicr or how to raise our children
How can someone not get turned off from such restrictions? This is not a cult. Dress tznius of.course but tell women what nail color to wear of the length of a sheitl?
Better offer classes and educate instead of force.
(7/9/2017 2:22:04 PM)
140
Plot twist
The Rabbis are trying to make more people feel uncomfortable living in Crown Heights, so that less people come in and more people move out. This will solve the issues of overpopulation of Crown Heights, overcrowding of schools, insufficient resources, and other issues.
(7/9/2017 2:24:20 PM)
141
Maybe extreme for many
But we could all just take on a small improvement in tznius instead of bashing or judging. For example: someone wearing low neck can improve that ( just one area .. slow but steady... or someone who doesn't wear nylons to Shul could now put on pantyhose to
Go to Shul... a small improvement bw her & Hashem...
Hashem likes that. We all know our shortcomings..
Hatzlocha women sisters. We are all strong
(7/9/2017 2:31:24 PM)
142
#136
Um. Who answers your taharas hamishpacha shailos?
Who empowers these old bearded men? Doesn't Torah provide a mechanism for this?
(7/9/2017 2:35:34 PM)
143
💯 % agree 132
This can't realistically be enforced but it can be enforced by all on shluchos and under merkos. I was luckily mekarved by remarkable and knowledgeable women, who spoke in a chassidishe manner and truly lived it. There was no hipocracy.

I moved to a small south Florida community and was surprised that one of the local shluchas answered the door with bare feet and a tichel halfway off. This was not s one time occurrence, may of these shluchim own tvs, wear legging and sandals etc. not once have o heard a word of Torah discussed at a shabbos table, only about nannys, interior designers and shopping.

This made me sad to see because I wondered how will all the secular people around them ever grow without s true example or is just showing up a lavish chabad house events the only watered down taste of Judaism provided.

Start with the heads of chabad, demand change! No more nepotism and only hire shluchim who truly follow the Rebbes teachings. This will send a message. Don't expect the community as a whole to change unless our teachers and rebetzins set the example.
(7/9/2017 3:26:57 PM)
144
Fascinating!
It is scary when real pops up in your face after it hasn't visited in some time. I believe that any frum person with a clear mind would not take offense from these pleadings of the rabonim. Yes, one might say it's a demand, but let's be real: people can and will continue to do as they wish. Nobody thinks otherwise. It's simply a call for unity, but for those that have a clash with calling themselves frum and their current lifestyle, this can be a cause for disturbance. But do not forget, you can go through whatever you need to go through, but when you protest the rabonim like Korach, the name of which you claim to attach your frum badge is being misrepresented. And what place do "men with beards" have making such guidelines!? that question is for one who either has lost faith, or does not understand how carefully the process is designed to make sure it is respectful, sensitive and on target.

Also, those that protest such direct rules think real hard with what you are protesting. We live at a time where anything can easily be broken down and understood, where our women are walking around dressed and/or acting provocatively, the desire for such behavior exists in the company it sits with.

If a woman dresses in ways defined above as not tznius and does so because her husband wants her to dress that way, the husband should be aware that he will not be the only one tempted and hoping to gain her affection. That is not the frum way. And if the woman does so on her own accord, it is likely she craves the attention of others, not just her husband's. This is not the frum way. So of course each person can do what they wish, but understand where the rules come from and the reason they were put into place.

Remember, "what goes around comes around" Do not act out if it hurts, get real.

- Tupac

(7/9/2017 3:46:33 PM)
145
the reason for strictness is simple:
it will otherwise lead to mixed dancing!
(7/9/2017 4:15:01 PM)
146
C'mon!
It's the Rabonim's fault,we don't make these kind of rules in Lubavitch,follow your intuition,what about gezhe.................
People grow up and take responsibility for your own actions,desires and shortcomings! Sheesh,this is pathetic.
(7/9/2017 4:22:58 PM)
147
i was not tznius for years
i've changed back to the old tzznius me and i love it!
i feel more free then ever ! not a slave to fashion any more , no competition , no peer pressure , my clothes are more expensive and classy and i feel like a queen and my confidence has soared. i'm so much happier now .
(7/9/2017 4:39:16 PM)
148
To #136
So you hate beards and old people?
Do you hate your parents and grand parents too?
They are also old.
You are so concerned about 'what a woman can do with her body'? That is the same terminology used by supporters of abortion on demand. Do you support that as well?
So you complain about women telling me what they can do with their bodies like the feminists are doing through the secular anti Torah laws?
For example, women by law can dress how they want as provocatively as they want, to get men to look at them, then when they are looked at they scream the 'perverted men are looking at them, making them feel uncomfortable so men are getting in trouble with the law just for looking at what is so proudly and deliberately on display, which obviously is telling men what they are not allowed to do with their bodies.
This is just another reason why liberalism is such utter hypocrisy.
Finally do you think people should be able to kill themselves if they want is a safe clinic where they make sure the person does it right and does not botch the job and leave himself crippled?
After all, it's their body, right?
(7/9/2017 4:42:39 PM)
149
To 128 and 135
Ok wear a sweater and a skirt in 120 degrees I would love to see you suffer.
(7/9/2017 4:55:32 PM)
150
Authority?!
Let us all just remember that this is coming from our rabbanim and we must respect it and follow it. It is halacha. Torah is for our own good. Let's keep our yiras shamayim and kavod harabanim. Please.
(7/9/2017 5:02:56 PM)
151
Wake up!!!!!!!
Why don't "the Rabonim" write about the importance of parents expressing proper love to their Children, by
spending time with their children and understanding their individual needs, so they don't need to get dressed in a way to get the "attention from outside?

When are "the Rabonim" going to teach The beauty of Torah and how to achieve that in 2017?
instead of; all the things "not to do?"

Wake up!!!!!!!!!
Yitzchak


(7/9/2017 5:03:52 PM)
152
Two Extremes
Looks here like everyone totally for this is living in their own bubble and everyone totally against this just doesn't like being told what they don't want to hear
(7/9/2017 5:04:56 PM)
153
Rubbish!!
Forcing this upon us will not help anything. To be a Jew is more then dressing tzniut. No wonder there are so many people going out of judiasm, look at the example you are setting. Everyone is on their own pace, on their own journey. And god still loves us.
(7/9/2017 5:28:21 PM)
154
No rebbe nebach
It hurts to see a eida kedosha fall so deep into the opposite.
To read some of the comments here are so disturbing.
Why and how did this happen? Where were the rabbonim all these years? Where were the mechanchim? Where were the parents? Ok it happens everywhere these days. But nowhere
like in CH.
This weeks parsha. We need a Pinchas.
The 3 weeks are coming. I will be crying over churban
Bais Hamikdash and Churban Chabad.
Moshiach now.
(7/9/2017 5:31:12 PM)
155
Rules made by women!
Did all those complaining about men making rules for women actually read the article? Or are they outside agitators who don't know who Nshei Ubnos Chabad are?

These rules were put together by Nshei Ubnos Chabad i.e. WOMEN! YES WOMEN!
(7/9/2017 5:37:02 PM)
156
The "there's more" People
Saying "there's more to Judaism than [insert topic]" is just a deflection and an excuse to sweep it under the rug. I can claim there's more to Judaism than Kashrus, shobbos, etc and eventually do nothing since "Judaism is more than just" or "there's bigger issues than"
(7/9/2017 5:49:21 PM)
157
Is Immodesty an Expression of Cruelty?
In response to those who argue that the main thing is their good midos and not their dress --

The Rebbe responded on Yud Beis Tamuz 5730 at follows:

"A Source of Harm
Dressing Immodestly Is Unethical!
(From an edited talk of the Lubavitcher Rebbe, 12 Tammuz, 5730)

"Not only is dressing immodestly against the way of Torah, it is against the overall proper path, common morals, and simple logic.

Conducting oneself immodestly, by revealing parts of the body that should be covered, is done to provoke the others yetzer hara, his undesirable side.
It does not accomplish that the other person will use his mind more effectively, nor does it better his emotions. It will not improve his respect toward his parents, toward his siblings, or even toward his own wife. Nor will it motivate him to give more tzedakah.

What does failing to dress modestly achieve? It achieves that if until now, the others undesirable passions were concealed or at least calm, they become aroused and begin to blaze.
[As a result, they share the responsibility for the others evil, even though they gain nothing from it. After all, it is the others negative traits that are being aroused, inciting him to fulfill his desires, whether through sight or in another manner. Nonetheless, it is all worth it just to provoke the other persons latent qualities and not the positive ones, but the negative!
In this way, they become a source of harm, not only to their own G dly soul, but to a second person and to a third to all those whom they encounter. This is an extremely warped path to follow; may G d protect us from it."


(7/9/2017 6:09:06 PM)
158
Long, long ago
Clothes in primitive and biblical times had to be made from scratch, and long before there were spinning wheels, weaving machines etc. Makes me wonder how much cloth had to be processed and made into garments in order for females to cover up adequately. I bet they didn't complain about being too hot either, even though their garments were likely made from animal skins, wool, etc.
(7/9/2017 6:33:45 PM)
159
Breaks My Heart
To #154:

People like YOU are the problem! How dare you have the chutzpah to write such a title?! We have a Rebbe, and he will be our Rebbe forever. If only people would realize that the Rebbe is still here and watching us...

May we be zoche to see the Rebbe physically once again, very soon.
(7/9/2017 6:51:28 PM)
160
it is time for shluchos and shluchim to follow the rebbes teachings
if they don't they should be removed from shlichus

have a tv is a no go
dressing inappropriately a no go

playing tennis in a short skirt should result in not speaking at the convention
the shluchos need to do better
lets go back to lubavitch the way it used to be
s
(7/9/2017 7:03:17 PM)
161
Re 98

Thank you Sara for that beautiful poem, I was very moved
(7/9/2017 7:04:21 PM)
162
Big Question:
Where do our "modern orthodox" Lubavitchers get their fashion advice? Answer: The disgusting fashion magazines and tv and movies they watch - and are so proud to post on Facebook. Yes, shluchim are also doing it. Sad! I feel so bad for my teenagers. 50% of our schools are now modern orthodox. Maybe more.
(7/9/2017 7:17:15 PM)
163
MUST READ
Without reading any of the above comments.
Tznius is an issue!
On one hand, its up to the individual and on the other there are standards to be in this community, if its too hard to comply.....

I dont think I have to let my boys go on the streets to shul and see non tznius jewish people, woman,girls or men/boys.
If you have other standards and don't feel rule apply to you, please check out and find a better place, Thanks!
-A concerned mom
(7/9/2017 7:19:50 PM)
164
To those complaining against the rules above
I wonder, do you have a Rav? ASAI L"CHA RAV.
Please get a rav and discuss with your rav how the Rebbe who has such love for you, would like you to dress, think, talk, and act. The Rebbe encouraged everyone to have a rav and mashpia; with the above complaints, I wonder - do you have a Rav? If you are following your Rav's guidelines with tznius, you would not get so upset with the above rules, though they may differ a little from your own Rav. Please do yourself a favor and get a rav and mashpia.
(7/9/2017 7:38:59 PM)
165
@ #30
Skirts start at the waist, go down to the knee, and then go OVER THE KNEE, for another 10 cm.
Only a warped mind would think to equate going over with stopping above.
(7/9/2017 7:39:55 PM)
166
Larry
I never heard of the Rebbi having issue with nail polish colors or length of A wig.The problem in this neighborhood they may be right in certain things but how they go about it is so wrong
(7/9/2017 8:20:17 PM)
167
To 163
And what exactly will you do if your boys look at all the non Jewish white woman that moved in here?
(7/9/2017 8:54:28 PM)
168
#74
among s all 166 comments i agree with 74.
Although people might think this is exaggerating, this is extremely important for a Lubavitcher yid.
(7/9/2017 9:06:02 PM)
169
Misnagid
Wow !!! This is the reaction from chassidishe women with some having feminism hashkafos very bad,such a response to bring moshiach is terrible women should be saying whatever i can do better not all these disgusting wrong comments moshiach is crying he is at our door
(7/9/2017 9:09:37 PM)
170
to #166
years ago, long wigs and dark nail polish were not that common among Chabad women
(7/9/2017 9:10:58 PM)
171
Thank you!
BS"D Beautiful! Thank you for letting us know! We don't know what we don't know except that you tell us. Baruch HaShem! May it's observance bring Moshiach immediately.
(7/9/2017 9:39:41 PM)
172
Glorious
Kol haHakvod. This is great! I appreciate the clarity.
(7/9/2017 9:40:49 PM)
173
Please!
Seeing that this is a very big discussion in chabad I've decided to take some time to give my opinion. Either we can argue about this everyday or you can all listen to my opinion and this will all be cleared up. Never can I remember has this been such a big issue, it was always self understood. Due to new fashion trend's and that we have unfortunately now started copying the goyim tznius has become a major issue.

Now that the trend's of today are totally against halacha we have to be very careful not to change. Under no circumstances should we be changing what we wear just because the goyim are. Downtown in the big fancy malls you may see styles but that's not what we should be buying. Erroneously some women are buying these styles which is terrible. Something has to be done, this has to change!
(7/9/2017 9:57:53 PM)
174
Ma Nishtana...???
Why is Tznius..a davar pashut in all frum communities. And a childish in Chabad?? Are basic Torah laws..not for us???
(7/9/2017 10:04:06 PM)
175
I love tznius
I , and others can respect the real me...without getting all distracted from my outside
And I agree with above advice to boys...date tznius girls if u want your marriage to last
(7/9/2017 10:04:14 PM)
176
Yungerman
To all those that are saying tzinyus is for men , and why is nothing written about it, you are 100 percent correct. But 2 wrongs dont make it right.

Tzniyus is between u and hashem. For those that dont respect rabonim, fine i understand u, some get into petty fights and u have no respect for them, i get it. So put all rabonim aside for a moment. This is between u and hashem, u know what u have to do and how u have to dress. Pls dont blame them for anything u do wrong, that makes no sence.

When i was a bocher i had mashpiam and eltereh bochrim that i looked up to, admired, and tried to emulate. Do the girls have such a thing? They need role MODELS like the bochrim. I think all the married woman who do not dressed tzniyusly will not change thier ways. ...but lets do something about our precious youth


Levi

(7/9/2017 10:48:30 PM)
177
#91
Gheze doesn't equal ffb
(7/9/2017 11:53:17 PM)
178
to tell you the truth
what so difficult about tznis, in lnda women wear cottonand loose, so can we, l see if you really care you can find nice stuff,vermont country store,of couse you can double up too which would be hot, you can try sewing or even get a stremtress to do it for you, inthe garment ind in man theres lots of pretty material that refine,and yet alive, not bright, find the the best colors for yourself, there's katz fabic store in boro park, and yes you can make requests too, look on line, gee,l'm finding lots of really pretty fabic that would be just right in tznis, who says you gotta wear black, the trick is loose and cool, you can look for ideas from catalog and make the dress in a tzinus way,l have, l'd looked on llbean, plaid skirts with some imagtion, make the skirts 6 panels with pockets, who says you gotta look like what the models are wearing, let your imagetion run, much luck,yup it's an art all,with planning you can alot of fun all the best
(7/10/2017 12:11:18 AM)
179
#69
Everyone take a moment to read #69's
#spoton
(7/10/2017 1:05:36 AM)
180
What about....?
And while all this is going on, not one of these rabbis have stood up against child abusers in the community. Many of those abusers still enjoy powerful positions while this "board" and others just look the other way! How about spending time and energy on the issues that are real problems like abuse (both child and wife) or agunas? Where are the edicts for those issues??? Truly unbelievable!!
(7/10/2017 1:17:21 AM)
181
If this was actual halacha
and not just some random list of requirements with no true halachic source it would be followed. Why won't anyone list a standard source like Rambam or Shulchan Aruch as a source. It isn't halacha it's a list of ways to degrade and control women.
(7/10/2017 3:48:54 AM)
182
One word: Conformity
How can one be frum on the outside and false on the inside?
(7/10/2017 4:53:19 AM)
183
obscene
There is nothing more obscene than the way some of these rabbis behave. These letters are a distraction from the shame of the damage of their destructive and ongoing infighting. Although I and many others may agree with the content of the letters, it is so offputting to see these names at the bottom tthat we simply cannot stomach it. Get your house in order and then come back to us.
(7/10/2017 6:24:35 AM)
184
All about controlling women
Of all the mitzvas and Halachas one must wonder why it is only tznius that has become an obsession. There have been no proclamations regarding kashrut; especially on pesach. No one is up in arms about the number of products sold and consumed in CH. No huge outcry over the number of men in the community who only go to shut on Shabbos, or not at all. No one is concerned that our schools violate the laws of this city, this state and this country by not educating our boys and only marginally educating our girls. I won't even mention that there are confirmed child abusers and their protectors happily strolling through the halls of these holy schools where they are more concerned with what the students'' mothers wear on their feet. Funny that there are heterim for so many things' but not tznius. It's all about controlling women people. And when enough women realize it things will change.
(7/10/2017 6:25:59 AM)
185
Not a cult
If this proves anything at all it is that Chabad is not a cult. We have room for open debate. We don't all agree and we challenge each other. More importantly, we don't follow blindly these extreme proclamations. We read these comments and further cement our positions on opposite poles. If this continues you will see those who don't want to follow these strict rules (myself included) becoming more resentful. And having less respect for those behind it. This is not how a cult works.
(7/10/2017 6:37:47 AM)
186
Heading for revolt
The more you criticize someone the more they want to rebel. If this keeps up, someone who can afford to will open their own school with normal dress codes. I would if I could. One for boys and one for girls. A proper education, qualified teachers, and a focus on giving back to the community. Imagine if instead of obsessing on what girls wore on their feet we obsessed on getting each girl to realize her potential and give back to the community. With all the teenagers in CH why are organizations unable to find volunteers to visit the sick and elderly. My girls get awards for wearing tights not for going shopping for a harried mother or older person. There are so many needy people in CH where are the rabonnim. Staring at my feet. examining my nail polish. My red nails feed babies cook meals and clean toilets.
(7/10/2017 6:49:41 AM)
187
As a boy I won't date nontznius girls
I don't want to share my wife with everyone on the street
(7/10/2017 6:57:59 AM)
188
To #92 from #48
Thank you. Good suggestions. Maybe snapshots of clothing could be sent for those who are shopping or away from Crown Heights- of course, that would have to be kept private.
(7/10/2017 7:01:05 AM)
189
So Sad
It actually pains me to read these comments.

Tznius is important and somehow a lot of Chabad women - as we can see from the comments - think it is just fine to ignore these standards.

When I drive by and see women wearing mini skirts and sheitals starting from the middle of the hair it makes me want to cry.

Its become a joke - that if Chabad women wore skirts as long as their sheitals and wore necklines as high as their heels, they would be fine...

I am not one to judge, but don't kid yourself! Tznius brings brochos to your family and to the community.
(7/10/2017 7:03:29 AM)
190
We got to listen to the rebbe
The mindset has to be the Rebbe's not yours you have the rebbe's opinion and then you have Crown Heights opinion what is this
(7/10/2017 7:41:27 AM)
191
To #187
I don't want to scare you or anything, but a lot of girls get married while they are still in tznius mode, and then cave to peer pressure.

She can easily start feeling like a "neb" with her stockings, long sleeves and sheitel in the summer while all her friends are walking around comfortably with no stockings, no sheitel and short sleeves.

Husbands have very little say in these matters.
(7/10/2017 9:01:35 AM)
192
The problem
The problem with tznius (along with a whole lot of other things going on these days) doesn't come from the fact that nobody got a phamplet about it.
(7/10/2017 9:03:09 AM)
193
Agree with #69
This obsession with tznius needs to stop. This hyper focus is unhealthy , leads to negative body issues in young girls, and is the reason so many women don't adhere to basic tznius when they are done with their schooling. Other communities who have a hrealthier approach to tznius(. Halacha not chumras) do not have the same issues as chabad communities. If chabad is known worldwide to be warm and open to every single Jew, we need to start taking better care of our own girls and boys. That means empowering them, not judging them.
(7/10/2017 9:25:58 AM)
194
"tznius" is not only about clothing, its color and length
but the over emphasis on this to the detriment of everything else that falls under the "tznius" umbrella for all people, of every age and gender, has sadly made a mockery of this particular aspect in some circles and those who try to do anything about ensuring certain standards are met are met with ridicule and scorn. I think everyone needs to start with a healthy dose of yiras shamayim and move on from there.
(7/10/2017 9:42:03 AM)
195
to #193
I am not sure what communities that you are referring to with healthier approaches to tznius. There are plenty of communities with even more stringent approaches then Chabad has and most of the women in those communities adhere to those chumrahs. There are also Dati Leumi communities with more relaxed standards and believe it or not, they also lose about 20% of their young people to assimilation after shirut leumi, IDF service, and college. To me, the litmus test of an approach would be to determine if the person had the strength to continue their commitment to frumkeit despite obstacles such as college or jobs in the outside secular workforce. This is also what shluchim encounter when they go to a community with no Orthodox presence at all. Empowering someone should be about giving them the strength to honor their own religious commitment despite the obstacles. Posting tznius standards does not have to mean that we are standing in judgment of those who don't follow them, although many will stand in judgment, however, people have a right to know this information, even if it makes some people uncomfortable.
(7/10/2017 9:58:16 AM)
196
Ariel Neb
I'm glad these guidelines came out because as a dapper young gentleman seeking shidduch it's hard for me to know what's in the inside when I'm so distracted by the outside. Hopefully the young eligible ladies take this edict seriously which will make it easier for me to find my destined one.
(7/10/2017 10:08:18 AM)
197
To #195
I think you are seeing things in very back and white. There are many communities in which tznius is adhered to in a less dogmatic way. The women might not cover their legs( chumra for many) but they are dressed modestly., and look classy. Just because you adhere to more stringent rules does not mean your children will follow your way of life and your level of yiddishkeit. In fact, the more intensely you push for these standards, the more likely it will backfire., like it is in Crown Heights. I think more focus needs to be put on derech errez, middos, community action... like many people here have posted...
(7/10/2017 12:28:38 PM)
198
#69 you are right on
I see this with my own eyes your comment truly sums up that issue in the community. It's time for the next generation to learn a trade or have a profession so they can support their family because the sluchos boat is full !!!!!!!!!
(7/10/2017 12:28:50 PM)
199
Leave the Rebbe's Shechuna
It's about time. All the modern 'Chabad light' who have taken over Crown Heights have no place here. They are more than welcome to leave to the Five Towns and other modern towns. here we want to follow the Rebbe and dress like Chasidim.
A side benifit from tehm leaving is rent might go down too.
(7/10/2017 12:46:46 PM)
200
To 187
When you date please show the girl this comment so she can make an informed desicion.
(7/10/2017 1:30:52 PM)
201
Shluchim & Shluchos
Finally the rabanim are coming out, its about time that something needs to be done, But I think that the the Shluchim & Shluchos they need to be an example to the other people how you need to be dressed, at most on the wigs and the neckline there is lack of tznius.
(7/10/2017 1:33:12 PM)
202
To 193
The tznius problem in Chabad could be a symptom of the unhealthy body image that you refer to. Trying to uphold those standards are not the cause of the problem. And I agree with #195, I don't know what 'healthier approach to tznius' you are referring to. The impression I get from my friends in other frum communities is that they all see Chabad women as lacking in tznius (and probably the guys too but we don't talk about that). Those communities tend to have higher standards. The adherence might be better because the communal pressure is greater. In other words, the lack of tznius in our community is already so well spread that adopting those standards won't threaten your child's chances of getting a shidduch or of tznius police hounding you.
I see these guidelines as an attempt to get some control on the diminishing standards that have become bedieved 'accepted'.
(7/10/2017 1:38:36 PM)
203
to 197 from 195
Go to visit Eli, which is a yeshuv in the Shomron. You will see women dressed exactly the way you describe. Now you would think that in such a low pressure environment, no one would rebel or push back or decline to follow in their parent's footsteps but yet, a high percentage do. I don't know what the reason is, other than that Eli is a very sheltered yishuv and when kids leave to go into army service or college, they don't all come back frum. I was just on a website where the topic was something concerning modern Orthodoxy and they estimate that a full 50% assimilate in college and do not remain Orthodox. So am I seeing things in black and white or am I seeing the reality that both the Ultra and Modern Orthodox are losing their children, albeit for possibly different reasons.
(7/10/2017 1:48:18 PM)
204
We are chassidim
I highly suspect that some negative commentators on this site are actually not even Lubavitchers and are just using this site as a place to bash. The underlying value system that we are Lubavitchers and we follow what the rebbe says is what needs to guide our decisions. If there are commentators not from chabad and don't care what the rebbe says, please find somewhere else to flaunt your trashy ideas.
(7/10/2017 2:46:48 PM)
205
THE QUESTION MUST ASKED ?
WHAT IS BEING ACCOMPLISHED BY THIS LETTER FROM THE RABONIM?

And be honest!
(7/10/2017 7:25:55 PM)
206
Attention Men
If your wife doesnt keep tznious you are sharing her body with the rest of the men on the street
(7/10/2017 7:27:22 PM)
207
who wants moshiach????
Let's remember the three concepts of why the Jewish people were redeemed out of egept,1 they were tznius,2 kept their Jewish names,3 they kept their language! !!
(7/10/2017 7:54:20 PM)
208
IMPORTANT!!
As a BT I grew up hearing all the reasons why my grandparents "freiyed out" - this one wanted to get out of the Bronx, that one was too "sophisticated" to be frum, the other one needed to make money... they all had at least one "really mean" relative who was frum. And EVERYONE wanted to fit in with the chic, stylish "upper class" culture in New York. Frumkeit was 'old school'...

It took about 2 generations but most of my cousins (30s and 40s) are now married to goyim - if they're married at all - and it all started very innocently like the posts on this page. Do you think my story is uncommon? Go to any college campus and you'll see that MOST Jewish students would say something similar.

And it all started with attitude - and anger...

Questioning everything - "if this one is 'mean' they're all bad!" or "if they can't get along the whole system is corrupt" or "men shouldn't tell women what to do so I'm never listening to rabbinic guidance ever again."

I personally think you mean well. I totally "get it" that you grew up seeing some hypocrisy and you know "spiritual emes" isn't about clothing and externals. I agree. But please snap out of it - for your children and future grandchildren's sake.

Torah is the emes and "standards" are beautiful - you know it too. If you didn't truly believe that, you'd belong to a reform "temple" like how I grew up and sending your kids to non-frum schools. But you're not like that. You are in a frum community for a reason.

Please snap out of it and avoid what so many yidden in my generation are going through. Married to goyim, goyishe children, not married at all because "who has the right to tell me marriage is the way to go?"

That's how it works.

Just look at the statistics.
(7/10/2017 9:35:11 PM)
209
Ashreinu
The wonderful website 'therebbesletter.com' provides us with
The original full letter the Rebbe wrote regarding Tznius to the Neshei Ubnos
Chabad convention in Eretz Hakodesh in the year 5728
(7/10/2017 10:06:03 PM)
210
Missing the point
People in ch these days are doing things that would even make some goyim shake their heads. Believe me the problem is way beyond how long the sleeves are
(7/10/2017 10:40:51 PM)
211
Can't tell who is a yuppie
Or a Lubavitcher woman. The men at least wear a yarmulke but the woman are indistinguishable
(7/10/2017 11:28:46 PM)
212
Post # 208 is absolutely right!
Almost all BT's and even some 'geirem' have very similar backgrounds and family history. Some even have a few very old photos of frum, even chasidic forbears! Hope some of the naysayers will get the message before it's too late. None of our ancestors dreamed their seemingly small infractions would result ultimately leaving them 'zero' future Jewish descendants.
(7/10/2017 11:41:50 PM)
213
Several comments
#1: "shemos 3:22
Clear possuk from the Torah that says the Yidden should wear the Egyptians clothing."
I had to smile when I read this because the exact opposite is true--the Meforshim point out that "S'malos" (clothing) is written after gold and silver in the Possuk, because Acharon Acharon Chaviv--the Egyptians were even more reluctant to part with their clothing than with their precious metals when the Yidden asked for them, because they knew the Noshim Tzidkoniyos would alter them to conform to Tznius and the Egyptians would never be able to wear them again!

#98: What a beautiful poem, with beautiful sentiments. Yasher Koach!

#111: I agree with your second paragraph.

#121: "These rules are basically impossible for today's women to follow" is one of the most shocking statements I've read in all these comments. " , first of all--Hashem simply doesn't give us "basically impossible" commandments. Those that are more difficult are simply to help us grow. Second of all, when our great-grandparents had to sew all their own clothing and could only afford enough fabric etc. for one or two garments, THAT was hard. Today I buy my clothes with a click on my computer, after making sure the length and details (including no Shatnez!) are correct. Could Tznius be any easier? So I Shvitz a little in the summer--big deal! Again, unlike my great-grandparents, I have air-conditioning and plenty of hot water for showers, conveniently available.

#195: Well-said!

S. Saxon
(7/11/2017 12:37:58 AM)
214
Nursing
What about open breastfeeding on the streets and in stores... Is that tznius?
(7/11/2017 1:53:23 AM)
215
that awkward moment when...
a bochur asks a "frum" woman if she would like shabbos candles...
Go figure
(7/11/2017 4:10:06 AM)
216
If you are not Tznius DONT GET MARRIED
If you get married and are still not tznius you will now be doing worse sins by exposing your hair and your body as an aishes ish. You will also be over on Das Moshe And Das Yahadus. So do everyone a favor and only get married if you will be tzniusdik. If a man marries you he will now have a part in your terrible sins so watch out men before jumping in with a non tzniusdik girl
(7/11/2017 7:09:39 AM)
217
Married woman's perspective
Very interesting. Creating guidelines for Tznius, hmm, I honestly do appreciate this. I certainly think 1 thing should be incorporated in any guidelines, "Derech Eretz Kadma Ltorah" something I find to be exceptionally hard to understand why Rabbis are not trying to set forth guidelines for humanity which to me if far more important than anything. I think the world suffers due to language, animosity for no reason- the reason why Temple was destroyed. We really should start from the core problem, once people have that solved or at least try , the receptiveness toward refinement of Tznius will be easier to accept. Thins will make sense- look at all these negative comments for starters. I'm appalled. Kind words should be their next Motto.
(7/11/2017 7:25:20 AM)
218
Single mans bina yesarah
To #217,you sound insulted hmmmm bec maybe you are the problem ,saying halacha guidelines isnt bad mouthing people and your trying the derech eretz card on the tznius issue avoiding this problem and how do we know you have derech eretz ,your perfect in character of course!
(7/11/2017 9:18:40 AM)
219
ALL are correct! So says the Rambam
Just because there are serious problems (e.g. monsters, impersonating human beings - yes the Rabbonan should address that) in other areas of life here; this does not negate the importance of tznius.
The Rambam states that just because someone is wrong in one thing - you don't assume that he is wrong in everything. He deserves credit for what he does right, and rebuke for the wrong.
So, let's say that the allegations of the Rabbbanan failing to address other issues plaguing our community are correct,, this does not mean that we have a right to disregard their call for adhering to tznius.

As far as 120 heat, when the American soldiers were in the Saudi desert, they had to be completely covered, head to toe, otherwise their skin would have burned. I mean, you can wear light, whitish fabric (white, repels sun rays).
(7/11/2017 9:40:53 AM)
220
to the "dont look", "wear shades", "what kind of rabbonim notice how other women dress"
crowd. it is for such "frum yetzer haras" we say in maariv, vehaser satan ...... meiachareinu.
(7/11/2017 10:35:07 AM)
221
it pays!
just do it! Do it for the tremendous Brochos that the Rebbe so clearly spelled out to us. Do it for your family's health,nachas, parnassah. Do it for protection of Klal yisroel. We have so much power through this Mitzvah. Lets not deprive ourselves of the tremendous ruchnius and gashmiusdike benefits ! It is such a struggle precisely because it is so powerful,
(7/11/2017 11:39:53 AM)
222
Moshiach now
In merit of all the righteous comments fighting to protect kedushas yisroel from evil forces we should see moshiach now
(7/11/2017 11:41:01 AM)
223
As if you women have a choice in the matter. ITS SHULCHAN ARUCH! WE LISTEN TO THE RABBONIM! DONE!
Everybody who asks "where are the sources. its not Torah!" go flaunt your am haratzus elsewehere.

I guarantee the women that put on make up and wear long wigs wouldn't do so if they were stuck on an uninhabited island. I'm telling you, all the men on Kingston avenue thank you for dressing the way you do.

As far as blaming it on the infighting, there is plenty of infighting in the kosher industry. Should we stop keeping kosher as well?

(7/11/2017 3:22:38 PM)
224
Is Immodesty an Expression of Cruelty?

In response to the argument that Is Immodesty an Expression of Cruelty? the main thing is ones midos and not what one wears, the Rebbe responded (12 Tamuz 5730):

Not only is dressing immodestly against the way of Torah, it is against the overall proper path, common morals, and simple logic.

Conducting oneself immodestly, by revealing parts of the body that should be covered, is done to provoke the others yetzer hara, his undesirable side.

It does not accomplish that the other person will use his mind more effectively, nor does it better his emotions. It will not improve his respect toward his parents, toward his siblings, or even toward his own wife. Nor will it motivate him to give more tzedakah.
What does failing to dress modestly achieve? It achieves that if until now, the others undesirable passions were concealed or at least calm, they become aroused and begin to blaze.

[As a result, they share the responsibility for the others evil, even though they gain nothing from it. After all, it is the others negative traits that are being aroused, inciting him to fulfill his desires, whether through sight or in another manner. Nonetheless, it is all worth it just to provoke the other persons latent qualities and not the positive ones, but the negative!]

In this way, they become a source of harm, not only to their own G dly soul, but to a second person and to a third to all those whom they encounter. This is an extremely warped path to follow; may G d protect us from it.
(7/11/2017 3:40:30 PM)
225
Chabad tznius campaign
This whole excuse of blaming it on the rabbonim we all know that its false,its your resistance to taking a good honest look at yourself and admitting your not keeping tznius properly these are halachos nothing to blame rabbonim for
(7/11/2017 6:43:04 PM)
226
THE ONLY WAY AND ONLY HOPE
Wow # 223, way to win people over, tell them this is the way it's going to be, end of story,

And that's exactly the problem. Instead of anyone talking about "how can we inspire the people in the community especially the young boys and girls , that ANYTHING in Halacha (in this case tzinius) is for their own benefit (Of course it's for g-d's sake primarily but we need to start with the self and build from there so that the self can comprehend g-d, not my concept the Alte Rebbe's) and not because some rabbi in an office is deciding that he wants things done a certain way in his town or else!
All persuasion starts with explaining why the person should care and how they can benefit by what is being proposed. Issuing a decree is not going to persuade anyone. Enforcing such a decree is furthermore going to turn people off from your message.

So please, crown heights, get this through your collective head while there is still something resembling a community left! if you want to have Torah keeping children, brothers sisters etc. you need to explain how what Hashems wants from each of us is to live a way of life that is healthy for us, mentally, emotionally, physically, psychologically, spiritually and on and on. Yes, we can all love g-d for our own benefit and with time if not right away be inspired to love Hashem with pure love and not from an angle of "what do I get out of it". That time will come and for some of you, you are already holding there and that's good for you( so please dont waste time typing here a full description of where you find yourself in your frumkeight and how you see it and how everything you do is purely for Hashem (I hope you really are such a tzadik).) But showing some one how good something can be for them is where you need to start your attempts at persuasion.

When I was dating I would ask the girl I was out with if she was a frum jew because she believed and felt for what she was doing or if it was simply because that's how she was raised. Some of the answers were not very convincing to say the least. BH I am married now to a woman who wholeheartedly Believes in the lifestyle we lead and iy"h I hope our children see the happiness that comes from a Torah life and the pain or very least emptiness that comes from living another way.

Fun exercise, go ask your children some time if they feel they are frum for themselves or to make you a happy parent. Don't judge their answer , just work with it if they tell you truthfully they have not really thought about it or sound like they are unsure, it will pay dividends big time when life throws them some not so wonderful curve balls.

And lastly, until everyone feels 100% in their frum lifestyle there will always be a tzinius issue (and of course various other issues that seem to go Undiscussed for whatever reason) because simply not everyone can be at the same level at the same time, but these decrees I fear only cement the hearts opposed to any change , far from being a catalyst for a frumer lifestyle.

And in fact I would say such actions do way way more harm that good as can be sadly seen by the legitimately angry comments above. Who's taking achrius for the slightly "modern" girl who reads this post and feels that only an even more modern life is the only life for her because she's not going to be bossed around, told what to do etc.

In short , persuade with words not a stick while you still have ears listening.

Ie. let's educate not dominate
(7/12/2017 2:00:59 AM)
227
wow so many oppinions!
i read many of the comments and i feel that this is like a debate! and it doesnt have to be! we are one nation, we are trying to bring moshiach, thats the final goal! these rabbanim made these rules to let us know clearly how to be tznius. they didnt do it for the fame, or for anything else! they did it so that women can follow it, TO BE TZNIUS AND BRING MOSHIACH!
those who are against this, know the truth, and those are the ppl who dont follow these rules 100% and just dont want to admit it! you know its the right thing! i myself really try to be as tznius as possible and i will admit that im still working on myself! no one is perfect! Hashem made this world imperfect, so that WE can make it perfect. and these rules will help us!
moshiach now!!!
a young girl with an oppinion
(7/12/2017 7:58:52 PM)
228
770
To#226 dont exagerate by calling it a decree give us a break ,is a hechsher on a store a decree, no! the mitzvos are decrees from god he is the melech if you dont obey him it could get scary change before its too late lalter teshuva lalter lgeula
(7/12/2017 10:54:15 PM)
229
oh no
if this is what the comments sound like...we have a serious prob!
(7/13/2017 7:46:18 PM)
230
#2 Problem not baalei teshuvah
"What about all the baalei teshuva visiting Crown Heights or those not yet on the level to keep to these standards?"

The problem, for the most part, is NOT the baalei teshuvah. They dress more tzniusdik.

V'heishiv lev avos al banim -- the Rebbe's explanation -- The "parents" will learn from the "children."
(7/13/2017 9:16:52 PM)
231
The requirements for Tznius for MEN and Women
The requirements for Tznius at your childs school
The first lady and her step-daughter looked like twins in veils and black, long sleeve dresses that fell below the knee to meet Pope Francis.
When Queen Elizabeth met with Pope Francis in 2014, she wore a lavender number and accessorized with a coordinating hat, adorned with flowers and white gloves.
Melania and Ivanka opted not to wear headscarves while visiting Saudia Arabia recently.
While in Israel this week, the Trumps visited the Western Wall, the holiest site where Jews can pray. Ivanka Trump, who converted to Orthodox Judaism, wore a small hat while praying at the wall, while Melania Trump did not wear anything on her head.
President Trump, who became the first U.S. president to visit the wall while in office, wore a yarmulke, which is customary for men who visit the religious site. He also wore one at Yad Vashem, Israels Holocaust memorial.
A number of years ago my friend for life worked in the Wall Street area of Manhattan managing a high end womans clothing store. The major account executives down to the (simple) office assistant who wanted to be or at minimum feel special or succesful, would enter her store and purchase very formal clothing. This would boost each persons energy or ego according to the feelings they were seeking.
Looking at the above examples we see how the world at large looks at or respects and perhaps criticizes the different modes of dress. May it be a scarf, color of the hat or even Donald Trump wearing a Yarmulka or Kipah while visiting the Holy sites in Israel.
A number of years ago, I spent a Shabbos in Lake George NY at a Shabbaton. While there, a fellow Shabbatoner who just happened to be an accomplished lawyer joined us wearing his finest white clothing (Shirt and pants etc.. and formal 10 gallon (cowboy) hat. He explained that while all week he dresses in dark suits as he represents his clients, he wears white, distinguishing his mode of dress, while representing himself to G-D on the Holy day of Shabbos.
During the atrocities of World War 2, there lived a famous Askan, a person who gave his life for the greater benefit of serving the urgent needs of the Jewish community at large. His main goal was saving as many lives of Jews, challenged while living in oppressed countries. His name was Mike Tress. A story is told that after the war he had a meeting with the world renowned Satmar Rebbe. He extolled great respect much more than one would have expected.
You see, Mike Tress did not have a beard. In the general Chassisdic community a person without a beard, to a certain extent, would be looked at or considered a step or a level below what a Chossid should strive for. The question which amazed the Chassidim in attendance, Why did the Rebbe extol such great respect to this man? Who was he? Why did he deserve such great honor?
When a Chossid asked the Rebbe for explanation and why would the Rebbe give a man without a beard such great respect? The Rebbe questioned: You ask, Why this Yid does not have a beard and I ask; while you have a beard, where is your Yid?
Does a beard make a Jew?
Does the man or woman make the dress? or Does the mode of dress make the man/woman?
Many Yeshivos or Jewish schools have a dress code. The code is fairly simple follow the code of Jewish Law a topic called Tznius. Men should not come in shorts, wear a Yarmulka etc Ladies should have cover their Hair properly, Elbows covered, Knees covered etc all to be in a tasteful manner.
Tznius applies to a man just as it would apply to woman. Perhaps a man may wear shorts when playing basketball, he is still required to wear Tzitzis, He is still required to wear a Yarmulka. Coming to Shul in shorts is not Tznius. Shabbos in shorts is not respectful. Long hair could create a Halachic problem when wearing Teffillin. Going to Shul, Synagogue should be respectful and one should dress somewhat formal.
Will your Rav pray without a formal Hat, Jacket, Pants and Shirt?
The Lubavitcher Rebbe as did Rabonim from all groups and all walks of life spoke and continue to speak about the urgency for one to be extremely diligent and adhere to the full spectrum and details of the Laws of Tznius. These laws were stressed even more so during the warmer months.
Ask yourself; If I were to have a meeting with the president, in the Oval Office, Is this the way I would dress? If I would meet the Queen of England, Is this the way I would dress? If I was the President or Queen is this the way I would dress?
You are Royalty! Would you want your Prince or Princess to dress this way? Would you want your Tzadik or Tzadeikes to dress this way? Now turn it around, you are the mother of the greatest Rav or Rebitzen shouldnt you have respect for them?
Furthermore, how do your children feel when you dress sloppily, immodestly or provocatively? Notice how the 3 words end with ly (lee).In Hebrew the word lee is translated to mean To ME. Is all you care about, being self centered? Would you rather use the Hebrew letters of Lamed and Yud (sounding out lee) to be La Hashem meaning serving the one and only G-D of the universe?
Remember I hinted upon a well known fact that mode of dress does have a way of conditioning ones attitude. A child of Hashem dresses formally and with dignity.
A school having rules and regulations, besides for following the Halacha it is also a way of conditioning the mind of your children to understand and feel that they are special! They are a Cheilek Elokah Mimaal. They are a cut above the rest. Respect the rules, Respect the Laws, Respect yourself and most of all Respect your children!
It is just a thought.
(7/13/2017 10:43:19 PM)
232
WOW!
i am a thirteen year old girl, as the "new generation" and part of the future of am yisroel, reading this article, and its hundreds comments makes me realise WHAT AN EMBARRASSMENT THIS IS & personally, having studied most the halochos on tznius (i have ways been interested in the womans role in yiddishkeit) i am well informed, and CHOOSE TO TAKE ON WHATEVER I MUST, BUT NOT SOME FANATICAL'S IDEA OF TZINIUS! THAT SHOULDNT BE FORCED UPON ANOTHER JEW, AND it is exactly those finatics that are turning this generation off yiddishkeit.

V'heishiv lev avos al banim -- the Rebbe's explanation -- The "parents" will learn from the "children."
(7/13/2017 10:51:19 PM)
233
Information misconstrued
As a (Lubavitcher) Rov in a non Lubavitch community, I am amazed at the arguments and bickering. If you feel that you must comment (positive ones are appreciated and negative comments won't change my love for you) on my post, please do so.

Is it because "The Rabbonim" are trying to instill "Halachick standards"?

Is this something new? (Rabbonim know that there will always be some opposition on matters affecting the masses) Opposition usually comes from people who are non conformists, uneducated or misguided.

Is Tzinius an issue? It definitely is! In every community!
As a Yungerman, I spent Rosh Hashana in Texas where the weather hovered around 100 degrees. I was shocked when I went to the mall and found that more than 80% of the women were somewhat Tzinius (other than Hair and elbows etc...). Ft. Worth is a very religious city.

Are the Halochos something new?

Are the Rabbonim out of line and/or creating new rules?
Definitely not!

In the non-Frum (yet) or Goyish world most people of prominence wouldn't have an issue of dressing properly or formally when they go out in public.

The bigger issue is how people are BASHING the Rabbonim or others who post their comments.

The bigger issue is those who want to believe that "Derech Eretz Kodmoh LaTorah" means the way of the land... ie. The way other people in today's world dress, is more important than the Torah!

When one may be misguided or one may feel that there is opposition to what they are doing, their feelings are clouded by the knowledge that perhaps they are (at least somewhat) wrong. I also don't want to be wrong!

The Rebbe as did many before him came out with a Shturem several times and specifically before the summer regarding Tznius issues. He may not have printed a list, he left that for the Rabbonim, Mashpiim etc to give guidance. For Halachik Shailos very often he would direct one to ask a Rov.

Misconstruing the reasoning behind the Rabbonim for bringing such an important Mitzvah to the forefront is offensive. Believe it or not the Halochos of Tznius may be more important than the MiVtzah read the word again MiVtzah of getting others to light Neiros Shabbos and getting someone else to put on Teffillin. "Chayecha Kodmin", your Pnimius your Tznius must take precedence.

Saying that the Alter Rebbe or any other authority said that Pnimius comes before Tznius is incorrect.

My father comes from Shpitz Chabad and my mother comes from Belzer Chassidim. When asked how such their Shidduch came to fruition? My mother responded that all we cared about was, Does the mother cover her hair and does he have a beard.

Saying things about Geirim or Baalei Tshuvah is totally unacceptable. Perhaps they need better mentors. This means all of us myself included. VAhavtem es Hageir

The Rebbe spoke about VAhavta LReiacho Kamocho, Love your fellow Jew like you love yourself. You must truly love yourself before you love someone else like you love yourself. VAhavta Es Hashem Elokecha, You shall love Hashem your G-D, you are a Chelek Elokah Mimaal A piece of G-dliness from above. Are you keeping the Mitzvos showing your G-dliness? Do we love our fellow as we should for our self with the same G-dliness?

I hope that we all could get above the negative and rather focus on the positive. Do what is right and may we all see true Yiddish and Chassidish Nachas from our children.

May we be Zocheh to see the change from Mourning to Yom Tov speedily in our days with the coming of Moshiach speedily in the next few days before Tisha BAv.
(7/14/2017 12:41:16 AM)
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