By Chaya Sara Waldman
Dear friends,
When I set out to write the op-ed in response to Rabbi Gurary’s letter I had no idea that it would elicit the kind of response it did. I watched in amazement as comments poured in and then letters in response began to appear. It was never my intention to disrespect or goad anyone, it was rather to take an opportunity to participate in this discussion, participate in my community.
My favorite people in the world are Lubavitchers, and I love Crown Heights. I must admit that there have been times, especially in recent years, when I have felt somewhat alienated from what seemed to be accepted community opinions. It sometimes felt very isolating, and this despite my perfectly tznius appearance.
When Rabbi Gurary’s letter to parents was made public, I felt those same feelings of alienation from a community that I love and want to be part of. Reading the letter, I felt my heart fall; What was disturbing was the way this venerated institution, in an attempt to champion tznius, is distorting its meaning, abusing its spirit, and pushing people so far away from true tznius that I am fearful about the future of our community.
I read COLlive.com regularly. I never comment. I know others who read collive.com and also never comment, no matter how strongly they agree or disagree with an article. I didn’t want to be silent anymore. I love Crown Heights, it is my home, and I figured that the only way to be a part of it was to participate – by contributing my thoughts on a matter close to my heart. I also thought of the many people who feel the same way – family and friends, and fellow mothers and casual acquaintances – who worry they will have to leave Crown Heights because of the increasingly extreme community norms. I wanted to write this article for them to let them know that Crown Heights is diverse, home to people with many different views – even among those who are always perfectly tznius.
It was gratifying to see the letters which expounded on what I had written – both those discussing what tznius is, and those sharing their thoughts about the methods that have worked. It was hard to read some of the comments, though. It was frustrating to see many people utterly miss the point of my piece in an unnecessary effort to come to Rabbi Gurary’s rescue. It was painful to see how ugly people could be in their fearful defensiveness – vilifying someone they have never met and saying awful things which I can’t imagine they sincerely believe could in any way be righteous. And how disturbing to read how some women have leaned into this perversion of tznius (as in one woman’s comment about sending pictures of herself in store dressing rooms for a Rav’s approval).
As I previously clarified, my article was in no way intended to disrespect Rabbi Gurary. Of course, he has the right to make any rule he pleases for his school. My point was to question this method and manner of pushing a version of tznius that contradicts the very core of tznius. To me, tznius, this fundamental element of yiddishkeit is core to my life. I also know the importance of women’s dress – and how important it is to the Rebbe. There was never any disagreement on my part of any of those elements. Rather, the refined and aidel woman in me cringes at the crudeness of a letter presuming to inspire women to be tznius being itself so entirely hepech tznius. There is something strange, maybe even perverse, about the fact that women’s clothes has become the Number One priority in this community. There is something suspect about the argument, “we know there are a lot of other issues, but right now we are talking about tznius” when “right now” is ALL THE TIME. The obsession with skin, hair and fingernails is a vulgar enterprise and has also completely eclipsed many of our other fundamental values. This is especially pointless when we take a moment to consider the effects of edicts like this. This kind of coerced tznius doesn’t work. The need for a letter such as this is proof of that. If a mature woman hasn’t embraced this version of “refinement” and “beauty” of tznius to the point that she has to be threatened to adhere or leave the school, something is not sticking. How can we ingrain in our girls a personal passion for true tznius that they will want to keep – even when no one is watching? Shouldn’t that be the point? My own experience as an educator and a mother has been that girls in high school can’t wait to be out of the daled amos of school to cast off these rules. And to those of you who have praised this school for finally taking a stand, realize that this is not a new initiative. Letters and rules have been in all of the girls’ schools for the last twenty years! Consider this: the parents who are so flouting the halachos of tznius that they had to be threatened to adhere were students in high schools which pushed tznius this same way! Clearly, this method does not serve our long-term purpose. Why are we deliberately ignoring the painful fact that this does not work, and in fact may have terribly exacerbated the issue.
I wish my article had been challenged by more substantive arguments than those made. I wish more people actually addressed the points that I made and not used this article as an opportunity to brandish their self-righteous indignation. But I am not disheartened. I know that the people I speak for and the people I speak to tend not to comment here – a Silent Public. I hope that another mother who finds herself getting turned off by the path some of our institutions choose to take, who wonders whether there is a future in Crown Heights for her and her children, will read this and know that there are others who feel the same way. I hope that a young high school girl who has been called into the principal’s office because her socks fell down, who feels abject shame and indignation, whose gut tells her that there is something “off” here, will read this and instead of throwing it all away, she will realize that this characterization of Judaism and this chassidishkeit is not everyone’s definition of Judaism and chassidishkeit and there’s a place for her as a Lubavitcher right here in our Lubavitch community.
Personally, judgment, shaming, and un-tznius’dik ways of talking about tznius have consistently turned me off wanting to be tznius, and sometimes even made me question other Jewish values. I am so grateful for the models of true tznius in my life: my mother and sisters, some of my favorite high school teachers, women who I work alongside with…all of whom truly embody not just the “inches” but the spirit of tznius. I have never felt their eyes scanning me up and down; I have never felt their judgmental scrutiny; I have felt only intense admiration and inspiration, wanting to be like them – and look like them. This is what has worked for me. This is what seems to work for others. Perhaps this subtle-but-sure way will yield the results we are all so earnestly hoping for. The swallow-this-foul-medicine-you’ll-thank-us-later approach does not seem to be working.
I love Crown Heights. This is my home. These are my people. I am appreciative for the opportunity to participate in my community and I hope I can help it to be a place that inspires and supports all women to grow in yiddishkeit and chassidishkeit in ways that are genuine, joyful and true.
Would everything be ok? Is that the issue or is that the excuse?
I can’t find the exact quote now, but it was along the lines of people advocating an “increasingly extreme” view of tznius in CH. It’s not “increasingly extreme”. 30 years ago in Crown Heights all the women dressed in a tzniusdikeh manner. One did not see knees, elbows, cleavage, or bare legs, nor skin-tight dresses. The women all looked mamesh like royalty, part of what attracted me to Yiddishkeit was the way they looked, I loved the idea of looking like that. Those advocating a return to those standards are not “extreme”.
Not having grown up in a frum home, I went to public school. There was a dress code. If our skirts were perceived as too short we had to kneel on a table and if the skirt didn’t touch the tabletop we were sent to “social adjustment”, a classroom with no actual instruction where students were supposed to think about their behavior.
The Rebbe himself said girls should not wear their hair long and loose, either it should be short or should be nicely “gathered”, which means something like a ponytail or braids.
Point: If you are a Bnos Menachem parent, you don’t have the right to complain. You chose an exclusive school, and therefore, it is hypocritical to complain only becuase you and your way of life/dress/whatever are now being excluded. Make a choice and deal with the consequences like an adult. For the rest of us, the rabbanim have yet to tell us that we can either follow the standards or are not a part of the community. These are just rules of a private school, so relax. Your communal opionion will matter when it becomes a communal issue. (Of course… Read more »
I am friendly with a Reconstructionist rabbi. She quotes sources that tell of the spiritual and emotional connection that is supposed to be accomplished in prayer, and therefore she is dismissive of the rabbi who established a set text and protocol for prayer. She believes that everyone should pray as their heart tells them to. In her temple, everyone is encouraged to bring to prayer whatever it may be that helps them evoke feelings. One comes with a guitar, another recites poetry, yet another closes his eyes and meditates. This woman vehemently and sarcastically derides from the pulpit the group… Read more »
and how about drinking alcohol at farbrengens to only those who are 21 years old and older !!!
Don’t forget, it was only after Chava added to Hashem’s commandment not to eat from the eitz hadaas that she ate from it.
In fact, you are the one who missed the point, as the author addressed yours.
See my comment #92. Should Yeshaya Hanovi not have said anything, since what he’s talking about aren’t violations of strict halachah?
98 Yes, the so called restrictions were put in place by an educator of a private school, however being that the issue became public knowledge people are feeling the need to speak out. As two commentators pointed out the reason for the outcry is because the guidelines that are being required are a step ABOVE the actual tznius Halacha. Wearing a long denim skirt is not Halachacilly untznis. Wearing a long long sheitel is covering your hair and not an issur in Halacha. Yes, we are Chasssidim and we should be following the laws לפנים משורת הדין, however it is… Read more »
what do you mean so that the rebbe will be here again. the rebbe is here with us now.
Yechi adoneinu morainu virabeinu melech hamoshiach lolam vaed.
Why is Tznius different then eating a cheeseburger. If I wrote a letter against eating a cheesburger would there be such an outcry. Lack of Tznius is that same as eating nonkosher. A prominent Rabbi said you cant eat in someones house if they are not tznius.
For those who wanted to know what the Rebbe’s position is regarding Tznius and Ahavas Yisroel… B’hashgacha protis I was learning the sicha in Chelek Beis on Parashas Behaaloscha (page 314), and so many of these issues were addressed! This is an adaptation, bringing up the points in the sicha that are relevant to this discussion. (See the source above for the Rebbe’s own words.) First the Rebbe discusses how the Menorah represents the Yidden, and that the seven branches symbolize the seven different paths of serving Hashem – chesed, gevurah, etc. The Rebbe says there how no single approach… Read more »
tznius is important. He is in charge of a girls school. Its that simple.
if you do not like the rules, change schools or just ignore it.
when i was growing up everything was different. we had the rebbe here showing us the way we would go for dollars hear sichos etc. we just need moshiach to solve our problems so that the rebbe will be here agaimn ad mosai
who agrees with me
signed a concerned bubby
Yes, the so called restrictions were put in place by an educator of a private school, however being that the issue became public knowledge people are feeling the need to speak out. As two commentators pointed out the reason for the outcry is because the guidelines that are being required are a step ABOVE the actual tznius Halacha. Wearing a long denim skirt is not Halachacilly untznis. Wearing a long long sheitel is covering your hair and not an issur in Halacha. Yes, we are Chasssidim and we should be following the laws לפנים משורת הדין, however it is not… Read more »
you need to add one very important final e)
Everyone who agreed with he has no knowledge of HALACHA.
it’s “l think”, “l feel”.. “who is he to say” .. if it weren’t so terrible it would be a joke
Even though I find these rules difficult, I’m glad there are strict tznius rules. Ones tznius generally displays a person’s yiras shomayim…those who are stringent with tznius are usually stringent with other halachos and vice versa..laxity in this area usually that person is lax in other areas. So I am thankful to be part of a mosad that puts a great emphasis on this…it keeps me from sliding down the way I see so many others going… And it is precisely the importance that we put on our appearance that we should be making it important…if it’s so important to… Read more »
Why is collive allowing justifying a lack of tznius! Hullo kudos to those who are struggling to hold on to that which,keepa our nation holy.
I wish my daughter went to BM.
The halacha, as also written/spoken by the Rebbe, is that the knees need to be covered even when sitting. The length required for this to happen is around mid-calf.
I have a really hard time with this halacha actually, but I dont pretend that its not the halacha… it’s something I am trying to work towards and I admire those who wear mid calf skirts
I couldn’t have said it better. Comment #41 must’ve taken real guts and brains to write. To see the core of the issue, and really say what has to be said with such bravery. I mean it’s not easy times. On that note, of the tznius crisis, combined with the feminism crisis, and the shidduch crisis, i also noticed thay there is a new crisis that the mamicure salons in crown heights continue to increase in price. Its very subtle, but dollar by dollar, they hike their prices. I mean that attitude is the same one we see with crown… Read more »
The novi Yeshaya (a man!) spoke out about tznius issues in his time, and not even objective violations of them (short sleeves or skirts, etc.), but things like “walking with neck stretched forth and painted eyes.” And for that he warns of harsh consequences (Yeshaya 3:16). Think about that, everyone who claims that a man has no business talking about tznius rules, or that it’s going beyond what halachah requires, etc.
Thank you for being a voice of sanity and reason and inspiration in an issue that extends beyond crown heights. Love being a Lubavitcher but our society needs to get a grip.
Thank you Chaya Sara Waldman!
Every couple of months there s a new hock on the block!
1st the eruv, then pizza, then tznius!
They say there s a yeridas hadoros… I’m actually impressed with the upgrade! We went from shtus like food to heilige tznius standards!
Oh wait, but also with a lot of lashon horah intertwined, so maybe not…
What about open toed shoes, slits in skirts, bright red lipstick, red clothing, pockets in the backs of skirts, etc. etc.?
What does it do for our children’s chinuch to have these articles and comments online? You are concerned about the way children and their mothers are approached with tznius – but are these articles and comments a positive approach in teaching children? You are concerned that the rules in the school are beyond the requirements of tznius so an article by a Rav and letters or sichas of the Rebbe about the guidelines of tznius are what is needed on this website. We need to hear from a Rav about this subject and it would be inspiring to read the… Read more »
Having read your self-serving, justifying “explanation” which turned out to be just a less hysterical version of your first angry rant, I had no cheishik to read the comments. Nevertheless, it seems to me that
a. You need another 15 minutes of fame.
b. you need a lesson in humility.
c. You need to learn how to apologize.
d. You need to know that less is more.
Please do the community a favor… stop writing. And COL, please don’t give this person any more coverage; perhaps he/she will go back to “loving” CH from a silent position.
As a BT my first trips to ch were very traumatic because I did not know how to dress tznius. I was met with cold stares, elevator looks, getting yelled at etc to the point I avoided ever walking on Kingston. Today I’m fully frum and tznius not because of getting attacked but by a community who respected my growth and never brought up the topic. Now when I visit ch the lack of tznius is obvious, but people in general seem much more kinder. Less judgemental. I recently spoke to a BT friend about it who also dreaded ch… Read more »
You say these rules are pushing away people from true tznius, which probably means you dress in a long shaitels, leggings, etc. Have you asked a Rav if the items you question are tznius? Or you are too liberated to ask a Rav shialas?
As Jews we are part of Hashem’s army . The school has a right to enforce regulations just like the army enforces regulations of dress for it’s soldiers.
“Mrs. Waldman”, Our holy Rebbe and Rebbetzin designed this Shchuna after the exacting standards of The Previous Lubavitcher Rebbe. To aid them they had Chassidim and mechanchim whom they guided diligently.
It’s very hard to come from somewhere else and get used to these “Royal” standards, but this is not just any Jewish neighborhood. If you want to live in the Rebbe’s daled amos, you need to subscribe to his standards.
he has merely put forth rules for his school. For which he’s entitled, all schools have rules. That said, I have to wonder why collive saw fit to publish 2 articles of nothing more than an anonymous person’s opinion. I thought you were a Jewish news and educational site. Is this possibly an opinion you endorse?
‘Chaya waldman’s’ basic premise is flawed, and her reasoning is faulty. But in every false thing there has to be a little truth to be accepted. That is as I see it, when rebuking another Yid, we have to pare our nails!
All she is saying is that there is something very wrong when tznius is given the spotlight. Which is true. Unfortunately however, it has become such a major issue that it can no longer be treated with respectful silence. It must be given the spotlight for something to change. R. Gurary felt the boundaries need strengthening. However, for anything that’s gevurah we need that much more chessed. What can we do now to spotlight tznius in a way of chessed? The other option as I see it is to accept that while there will always be strong true chassidim in… Read more »
Thank you Bnos Menachem for taking a stand and creating standards for our children. This community needs more people to stand up and demand that we follow RULES that the Rebbes chassidim should be following. Perhaps creating standards and setting rules is the thing that’s missing here. Apparently “the spirit of tznius” is not working in our community. Be honest with yourself. Do you feel the lack of tznius is because people speaking up about it or because no one has set any real standards? Please respect and don’t fight our school,m. Allow them to speak up so all the… Read more »
Beautiful! Well said and interesting
the girls schools care more about how the students dress than with the quality of the education they provide. That includes secular as well as Jewish subjects. The girls are well aware of the schools priorities and they resent it. As any parent of a teenage daughter can tell you – many many teachers are not qualified and haven’t been for the past 20 years or more they have been teaching. The girls have brains and they want to use them. Today many girls are taking the algebra regents – they were poorly prepared by their teachers. We cannot be… Read more »
mid calf skirts is not halacha…..cover your knees is
Tznius is of utmost importance, both for men and more so for women. However, enforcing these Torah standards can not be done by threatening, punishing or throwing children out of our Chinuch mosdos. You don’t win a fight (no matter how right it might be) by creating another fight. It’s only with proper Chinuch and being a true Dugmah Chaya of what a Chassidish, Torah lifestyle is all about, that will ultimately work. The Rebbe’s approach to all issues was ” accentuate the positive and it will automatically eliminate the negative”. As Tanya says, Don’t fight the Yetzer Hora, but… Read more »
I love the banter and range of comments here.
This truly rocks my boat.
better then page 6 anyday of the week!
Ms Waldman kudos, you explained yourself very well at least to me.
Ok, all carry on 🙂
Truthfully stated. In the 1940’s and 50’s some public shool students reported their teachers measuring their hemlines. This was in order to enforce the rules they had for uniforms. These were not Jewish schools. It may be that some of the older teachers in our schools, who had been educated in public schools before the advent of Day Schools, internalized this type of approach–the strict, follow the rules approach–for children of the 70’s with less than success. That is not to say that people may flout halacha and blame others. I see more and more immaturity of thought and emotion… Read more »
I feel that many commentators are using this article to voice their extreme opinions. While the articles aim is to not alieante others based on what they’re wearing but to shed a positive light on tznius . what I do however find extreme is rabbi gurarys rules. Private schools can have their exclusive rules. But to ban wearing denim, long hair and sheitels and nailpolish is not lubavitch halacha.
I agree with CS Waldman, and my advice to Gurary is to have ladys decide all the Tzinius issues not men that have other issues and side issues that conflict with the best way to get the best results.
Maybe Chaya Sara Waldman is not a person, it’s a concept…
to #55
Please go and spew your “I think chabad is the best and satmar is the worst” fanaticism elsewere. Your statement is a sweeping generalization and absolutely ridiculous, despite you writing “TRUST ME I HAVE EXPERIENCE IN THIS”
Who ever is behind this waldman name is a hipocrit with conflicting mesages.You would do much better being quiet. Why is the Tnius issue even up for coments?That should be normal in Lubavitch community who has to be an example how a real C hosid looked and behaves.Instead all you with the Tnius problem cause other groups of Chasidim where Tnius is a given to wonder as to the cause of such degradation . Please all of you who do not conform to the standard requirements of levush don’t bring embarasment to the rest of us by calling yourself Lubavich.… Read more »
Let’s post the Halachos of Tznius
The Beauty & Benefits
On Facebook, Instagram etc.
This way, they can easily be
Followed
Liked &
Shared
By claiming to have a message of ahavas yisroel while having no qualms about judging and denigrating another yid and his mosad publicly, it’s evident that it’s not ahavas yisroel that’s at the heart of this aricle, but an obsession with tolerance/ liberalism often confused with ahavas yisroel. See Lekutei Sichos vol. 35 vayishlach for the difference between a ” Tzanua” (modest) or “Tzavua” (pretender). This article clearly falls into the category of the latter, for many more reasons than not giving her actual name. Here are just two: While being sure to let you know that she is tznius’dig… Read more »
Thank you so much for your words. When my daughters were in school here, they were greeted at the door by a “monitor” with a ruler. This monitor’s purpose was to measure the length of their skirt to make sure it fell exactly at the right place between the knees and ankles. Needless to say, this ridiculous practice completely obliterated any inspiration these girls may have had to be tznius in their dress. What is really needed is less “rulers” and more inspiration. When I was in school, there was a moshul that we learned: The sun and the wind… Read more »
Most organized institutions have dress code or dress rules. Even non- Jewish ones. Politicians obey them, restaurant workers dress the part, workers at Macy’s all dressed in black in the makeup/perfumes department, and no one seems to think something is wrong here! A soldier can get punished for hair that is too long. So does a cop with a neglected-looking uniform. And everyone respects that! Only this group of entitled young hipster-Crown Heightsers who think that waving the “its now 2017” will clear all doubts, keep on fighting the rules of our foundation, because, like all liberals- they know best!… Read more »
I challenge people to go to Williamsburg and see for themselves. Why cannot you admit Satmar has good qualities, and we can perhaps learn from them? Not just tznius, but chesed, and I sure much more…
I completely agree with your points. Girls should be encouraged to express themselves creatively within halachic guidelines, and should be taught how women can look beautiful while still adhering to halacha. Everything about Rabbi Gurary’s letter negates that point; it narrows tznius down to a list of restrictions; most of which are not based on halacha and are actually extremes. Why are people not focusing on how Crown Heights, a community which used to be all about finding beauty in mitzvot, has turned into a restriction based community where everyone judges the other? I don’t live in Crown Heights and… Read more »
I hope the negative comments do not affect you. This is a quote””There is only one way to avoid criticism: do nothing, say nothing, and be nothing.” This ‘Waldman’ lady is a nothing, not doing anything, saying worse than nothing. You and your wife are accomplishing so much – you should be gebentched and it should come easy for you.
Commenters- please put a space between your huge paragraphs. No one can read that giant block of words. You obviously worked a long time writing up all of your opinions and we’d like to read them. But a wall of words is just an unread wall. Thank you.
I am friendly with a Reconstructionist rabbi. She quotes sources that tell of the spiritual and emotional connection that is supposed to be accomplished in prayer, and therefore she is dismissive of the rabbi who established a set text and protocol for prayer. She believes that everyone should pray as their heart tells them to. In her temple, everyone is encouraged to bring to prayer whatever it may be that helps them evoke feelings. One comes with a guitar, another recites poetry, yet another closes his eyes and meditates. This woman vehemently and sarcastically derides from the pulpit the group… Read more »
Why does tznius issue engender so many comments? way more important pieces on col get about six comments. Mrs. Waldman has a point of view. She is entitled to it since clearly many readers are supporting her. It is also true that young women in our schuna are walking around with a very strong lack of tznius. Now…what do we do about it?? I say nothing! Shaming, blaming, threatening the women does nothing except make them wear the stockings to pick up their daughters then dress the way they please the rest of the time. We will of lose some… Read more »
It’s not appropriate for a man to tell a woman off for the tznius.That in itself negates modesty.
why is there no op-ed’s about boy’s level of tzius
satmars might seem tznius outwardly but they all feel inwardly negatively towards tznius because of the approach that is taken towards it and they begin to disobey when they have the cahnce. TRUST ME I HAVE EXPERIENCE IN THIS
you really summed up the entire argument up in a fantastic way. i thank you greatly for shedding such great light on a highly controversial and confusing issue. In years to come people will surely be quoting “Comment no. 41”
That’s where you lost me!
Anyway people who eat only fish in a non kosher restaurant are about the same level as chassidim walking around with exposed hair, arms and legs. People need to know it’s not kosher
Why does not Mrs. Waldman do some research on satmar, to share with us the secret of their success with tzius?
Exactly,and maybe we shouldn’t do ANYTHING till we feel in our hearts and minds that we should do this?!? That’s not the way it works in yidishkeit, first we follow the rules and then we try to understand and feel and eventually enjoy what we’re doing. That’s the basis of all Judaism,WE WILL DO THEN WE WILL LISTEN 👂. Rabbi gurary could make whatever rules he wants in his school without having to be oppressed by anyone
I apologize in advance for this comment, like many others above, not being in line with the support and legitimization that you probably expected from writing the article you just wrote. I have to say that very frankly, I disagree. I disagree with you and I disagree with the many comments who come across as “in the box” kind of people. Just a question to ponder, and I would like to take this through a logical process: shulchan aruch is rules. The Alter Rebbe inserted reasons for the rules into his shulchan aruch so that we would understand these rules.… Read more »
I wonder why Gemara focuses on so many details do the oz and cow? Maybe we should focus on general fairness and automatically everyone will just inherently know how to be fair? Hashem’s will is holy. It is expressed in the detail she of Halacha. It is not “obsessing over a woman’s body” but clarifying Halacha . Is Taharas ha Mishpacha obsessing over a woman’s body ? Should we just talk about being generally pure? There’s details my friend! And to accuse women of “falling for it”? A high school principal has every right to call a girl in who’s… Read more »
Could not be better written. People like Ms. Waldman unfortunately dragged our community so hepech not only Chassidisher norms but basic Halacha.
Why do we mention tznius? Because since Gimmel Tammuz it wasn’t mentioned enough and tznius isn’t just about clothes. It’s not normal that CH and Chabad around the world keep Cholov Yisroel yet go to clubs and smoke weed. This happened because of a laxity of tznius, and with it often comes a goyishe, wild, and vulgar lifestyle and culture.
You write so nicely and beautifuly!!!! KOL HAKAVOD CHAYA SARA WALDMAN!!!
Thank you for taking your time to write for
THE SILENT PUBLIC
Both are right and we need to speak positively and recognise that we are in ikvisa demoshiach when these discussions are taking place.
where does it say in halacha the length of a sheitel is not tznius.never heard that before except in non chabad circles.
There is a very simple solution to the so called tznius crisis, remove the uniforms from all the girl schools, so that tzinus is taught in real life clothing. I wrote an open ed about it like ten years ago, of course it fell on death ears. Anyhow, to all the people quoting shulchon aruch, most of what Rabbi Gurary writes about the specific limitations of girls clothing is not found in the shulchon aruch itself, rather in later Posskim. In the shulchon aruch itself Tznius applies equally to men and woman, and has a lot more to do then… Read more »
Hey, I’m not fearful that women walk out of their homes with no skirt, no tights, no sleeves, walking hand in hand with their husbands who are wearing kapotes on Shabbos. I’m just very fearful about the future of our community because since we are brain-dead and don’t have an instinctive feeling for tznius anymore, we will all disintegrate because there are RULES that are about to be enforced! Gevalt!!!! I am terribly fearful about the future of our community, because hey, there are RULES about kosher kitchens – and Oy Vey if some Rabbi tries to tell us to… Read more »
Tznius is the way, it’s the Torah way!! Tznius- I love it!! Every. Single. Day.
With Achdus we should live, for that is our goal! Viahavta liraicha kamocha….
It is easy to claim that you are completely tznius when you are anonymous and no one can disagree. I believe that ultimately, since you are discouraging raising the standards in tznius (albeit using the cloak of one who is perfectly tznius -perfect? Really?) you call into question that claim as well. As an educator (if you indeed are one), you should know that you must be so careful with your words lest others, and especially our youth, find room to interpret them to mean that tznius is not the most important, and rules are not necessary… You bemoan the… Read more »
Very well said. Very well put.
Thank you Rabby Gurary for the Hatzoloh Nefashos which you are trying to effect.
Someone has to do it. Your place in Shomayim is assured.
Ms Waldman & Co.’s tznius, or lack thereof, speaks volumes. It is plain to see, as are the ankles, and other parts of the anatomy which too many Crown Heightsers daily flaunt in everyone’s face. I guess it’s time to throw out all the Shulchan Aruchs one can find, especially in Crown Heights, since, according to Ms Waldman, et al, no once wants to be told what to do. And that is what the Shulchan Aruch does. It tells Jews what to do. And especially our Rebbe, who told many to be ”a Shulchan Aruch Jew”, no doubt meaning at… Read more »
Why does everyone refer to her as Mrs? I was considering writting an Op-Ed about how crown heights has fallen so low to assume all middle age women are married. I mean women are independent, how can you make such am assumption. I scroll through the comments and see people saying Mrs waldman this Mrs waldmam that. I mean i know this tznius issue is a big deal, but did everyone forget about the shidduch crisis????! Anyway after much consideration I decided not to write the Op-Ed and settle for a comment, because I couldn’t think of a suitable yet… Read more »
Dear Ms. Waldman and #26, When a woman wears provocative clothing, makeup and sheitels to put her face and body in the spotlight, she should not be shocked when others comment on it (yes, even men. Are they supposed to be blind?) The Torah shebaal peh and sifrei Halacha are full of rules and discussions about every aspect of life including a woman’s body and manner of dressing. How dare the tannoim and amoraim discuss women like that? How dare they lay down rules and coerce us? Because they are men?Really? And we should do away with all rules in… Read more »
tznius is a way of life, not rules! to make rules about something that is a mitzvah is ridiculous. Hashem commanded us to be tznius, we should not hear this from a principal of a school. students are going to school to learn Torah, not how long their hair should be, etc. this is between us and Hashem, nobody else. very confused.
Both sides mean well….each to their own approach.. as long as it’s encouraging tznius..
Read! Read! Read what she wrote! Or did you never pass your reading comprehension class??
The ‘foul medicine’ phrase she uses refers to the tactics, the un-mitzvah of shaming! Please don’t comment if you’re misinterpreting, either deliberately or because you just don’t comprehend what’s written in plain (maybe not so simple) English!
lol.
everyone be jewish, cover up cuz it says to do that in the 5 books of moses (remember that…?) and have ahavas yiroel, cuz it says that in there too.
I am so proud of my school!
While the entire crown heights is freaking out about our tznius rules, I am feeling so proud. Proud that my school has set standards that any yid, and especially a lubavitcher dugmah Chaya, should have inborn within them. We are yidden and we’re proud! we’re chassidim and we’re proud! ASHREINU!
Before you go around parading that you did not get substantive answers, do understand that in general you are extremely disingenuous. “is distorting its meaning, abusing its spirit” you love to make statements, not backed up in poskim or precedent, and then repeat it over, in order to stamp it as a fact. ” who worry they will have to leave Crown Heights because of the increasingly extreme community norms. ” As far as the facts are concerned more people who do not really fit here are staying in ever increasing numbers. seems like you really live on alternative planet.… Read more »
The yetzer hora also says “I love you and care about you so that’s why you should just bend your standards a tiny bit”. Nice try using your supposed love for the community to push your agenda of speaking out against tznius
Thank you for sharing this with us, it made a great impression on me, coming from a more modern background.
Thank you Mrs. Waldman*!
*or whatever your name really is
Look at this!! Because of that eiruv!!
Now, look?! The shidduch crisis.
Do u feel guilty that you can not uphold these Tzniyus rules? I understand that you may be suffering with it and that is OK, but to make a statement saying that rules are “bitter medicine”, that is a far cry from the truth. One could have a hard time with tzniyus, but to say tzniyus rules are not the correct way of chinuch is absolutely wrong. Das Yehudis and the Shulchon Aruch was created for a reason. We are all about feeling closer to Hashem and connecting to G-D but where did the basic halacha of covering our elbows… Read more »
There’s a lubavitch way of enforcing rules.
Gurary’s way is definitely NOT it.
I am shocked how immature CH has become. Adults fighting like children, we are acting like first graders. Is this how we want our kids to act? Please remember who you are and how us lubavitchers should be acting….
It’s rather hashgachah pratis that this discussion started during the week of Parshas Behaaloscha, because there’s something in that parsha that teaches us a great deal about this. Rashi tells us that when the posuk tells us that the Jewish people were crying “by families at the entrance of their tents,” what they were really complaining about were the restrictions on who they’re allowed to marry (arayos). Now, consider. At that time, they hadn’t even been taught all 613 mitzvos yet, and of course few if any Rabbinical mitzvos (or chumros) had been promulgated. Yet we see that the Jews… Read more »
Mrs Waldman does not in any of her writing disagree with the rules of tznius. What she, and many many others, are appaled by is the very non-aidel spotlight again and again and again on women’s bodies. Read what she writes, not what you think in your own narrow mind!
She is totally right, eveeeyone knows she dosent want to make others feel bad.
Her points are correct and i seewhat she has written as AMAZING
Herein may lie the problem. Torah tells us very very practical rules.
For someone looking for substantive answers There’s a lot of ‘I believe’, ‘I feel’, ‘my opinion is’, oozing from your letters.
Kosher style and kosher spirit may be fine for some. But a true Chosid knows that we have mesiras nefesh on a kotzo shel yud of halacha, ever we can feel the holy spirit or not.
You are missing the point. R Gurary sent a message to his parent body. No one is forced to be part of his parent body. He has every right and responsibility to set high standards. Don’t like it? Your free to find a school that fits you better
This article is more clear and purposeful than your previous one. Thumbs up !!!!!!
I really get the fact that Tznius is a lifestyle, an attitude, not just about inches, I also get the fact that not everyone knows how to impress the Mitzvah on others, and how to affect change long term, but right now it seems that it is an emergency and a band-aid is needed to stop the “bleeding,” to save souls and lives. Rabbi Gurary is applying the pressure on the “wound”. After that is done or even at the same time we could come up with ways to inspire internal Tznius and affect outer Tznius. Of course, doing things… Read more »
You say you love lubavithcers .
Sounds like some of my best friends are…..
I am a Bnos Menachem parent.
I am behind these new rules 1000000%. What has happened to the Rebbe’s shevhuna is an embarrassment toto the Rebbe. It’s about to me someone stood up for the minority of families that still care about kiddush shem Lubavitch & tzinius.
i agree with alot of what you write here….I am a chabad woman living in CH (which i also dearly love) and i know exactly what you are referring to when u say howto approach the tznius issue,,,,many many years ago when I was a young mother i was at a lecture that reb Yehudis Heller ah’ gave on tznius….but i probably can’t even call it a lecture All I remember is when i walked out all i wanted with all my heart and soul and being was to be tznius….I wish I could remember the words she used… it… Read more »
To begin with,your letter makes several seemingly baseless assumptions. Secondly, many other communities,which have stricter tzneeus standards in school and in general,don’t have the crisis we have. Maybe it’s time to stop thinking so much about feelings and start thinking more about kabalos ol and the fact that we are the Rebbe’s representatives.
You had your pesach sheni to rectify what u blew the first time around and you blew it. But you can still apologize to Hashem, to bnos menachem and to anyone who you may have given the green light to trample on the mitzvah of tznius
There is no person by this name that lives in Crown Heights. Perhaps write your real name, then we can have a conversation.
Please post the original letter from rabbi gurary so that everyone can see what this lady is tantruming about. Maybe also explain what shoulder blades are and where they are located. Shoulder blades are bones on the right and left side of the back ending just about below the arm pits. A sheitel longer than that isn’t tznius end of story. A problem with leggings? Look at ppl waltzing around with leggings and no socks or even worse with NO SKIRT!!!!!
I have been patiently waiting to hear these beautiful words that express my thoughts for years. ייישר כח
After 379 plus comments you are still harping on one letter from one school with guidelines for their school. Did you apologize for the damage you caused with ppl denigrating this sacred mitzvah?!?!? No you didn’t?!?!? Did you apologize to Rabbi Gurary for being the catalyst of negative comments about him?!?! Nope again. Instead you used your words to further complain about rules. Get a grip! Maybe learn from the meraglim in this week’s parsha one tiny bit?!
One thing I find it hard to understand , a Chassidsh man is the one who is setting standards on the length of wigs, nail polish color, skirt length, if your shirt is too tight too revealing. I wonder , worry , what sites is this man exploring? A woman but it is so not ok a man. I hear he checks out the length of the girls skirts in the morning and if the are not ok, a call to the parents and they are send home. Very odd behavior for a d frum Lubavitcher Chassid. I know I… Read more »
No one is saying that it’s only about tznius and that’s it. Of course menchlichkeit is important!!! But clearly defined rules are necessary for a school to ensure that the parents are on the same page as them in terms of chinuch
I’m really not sorry for someone who may not feel welcome in this community because of strict rules of tznius. No one should feel comfortable walking around this neighborhood with nothing on their feet or plain leggings and no skirt. Sorry no pity here.
I find it offensive that you refer to rules of tznius as bitter medicine. It makes me highly doubt your true intentions
Beautiful. eloquent. Just beautiful.
If you love crown heights as you say or care any tiny bit about its sanctity then please respect the standards of one school in this neighborhood that wants to prevent the downward slope this community as a whole is heading towards in terms of tznius. They have their way in their school and you have yours. Respect that please.
im a little surprised, it sounds like you are someone who has all the right intentions with what you say and are trying to do, yet you wrote a controversial op-ed, got blasted, and instead of just accepting it (like you say you usually do) you write another one trying to justify it and tell high school girls to”folllow their gut”? what is your goal? just go back to being a part of the “silent public” it was fun while it lasted, but its enough now.
Thank you very much.
Yaasher Koach to Mrs. Waldman!
You speak what others don’t have the courage to!
You have taken tznius and put it in its proper perspective-
not a kick you out of my school if you don’t adhere to my rules!
Shame on a Mossad that has to talk that way! Tznius is a privilege and shift to women and girls – that’s how it has to be presented!
“the increasingly extreme community norms”? So women who are walking around in the shortest of skirts, with the shortest and tightest of sleeves, etc., are getting harassed? Not happening. On the contrary, the “community norms” here are getting more and more lax, as anyone with a pair of eyes can see.
For those not comfortable with the rules there is a a school in CH with no tznuus rules.
We surely need to seek many diverse methods to reach out to our girls (and women) and make snius an inviting, meaningful, empowering thing to do. We have to reach their souls, their minds, and their hearts. BUT that does not negate the need for basic laws of snius to be promoted directly in our community. If you call yourself a lubavitcher, in any way, if you feel something for the Rebbe, know that it is Lubavitch 100% to cover your collarbone, knees, and elbows at all times. this is not news. this is not up for debate. you may… Read more »