Jul 18, 2009
What are Bochurim Thinking?

Op-Ed by Rabbi Hanoch Hecht: After meticulously discussing the system of dating within our communities, we came to the conclusion that it is not the system that is failing us, rather it is the people within the system that are failing.

By Rabbi Hanoch Hecht

As a young Chabad Shliach I frequently have bocherim visiting us to lend a hand in the outreach that we do. Recently the bocherim that came to help us were all older and in the dating scene. After meticulously discussing the system of dating within our communities, we came to the conclusion that it is not the system that is failing us, rather it is the people within the system that are failing.

Everyone always complains about the system, how it is incomplete, ineffective or an absolute malfunction. Although singles shift the blame to the shadchanim (both professional as well as the others like family and friends), the bigger issue lies with the daters.

There was no bigger shock to me than hearing the following: one of the bocherim I was speaking (although maybe not the norm) shared with me that these days, a guy must have at least three girls lined up for him before he travels to his destination in order to date. Otherwise "it is not worth the trip."

How can one effectively date, and by date I mean look for one's Bashert, with another two or more possible prospects in the back of their head?!

The answer is simple: one cannot. Not only is it completely futile, but it is an immense disrespect to all the people involved! If you plan on having one spouse, then you only have to date one person at a time with the intentions of a potential mate. Dating, much like marriage, needs to be monogamous. Having more than 1 person as an option inevitably triggers your mind to compare your options and that is utterly destructive to your dating experience.

It gets worse: imagine being on a date with someone and they start telling you all the virtues and qualities they liked about their previous shidduch.

Sadly this is happening on both sides of the aisle and then people wonder why they aren't getting married. More and more singles are staying single despite their dating efforts. And the reason is simple: we do not know how to date.

What I think we need to make available in every single Jewish community is a Dating Course. It would teach the daters what to look for, how to act on a date, etc. This could have a huge impact on people in the dating world and bring about many more matches on a basis of Torah and Chassidus.

This is especially important for the more "chilled out" daters than the more chassidish /serious learners ones. The need to understand that dating isn't a fun pastime, it is a means of starting your life with your Bashert and fulfilling your life to the fullest as a Jewish entity is a great one.

May hashem help that parents continue to do their job and teachers their part and surely we will see many more matches that will bring up "a dor yeshorim yivoroch."


Rabbi Hanoch Hecht is the Director of Chabad of Dutchess County and the Rhinebeck Jewish Center in Rhinebeck, NY

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Opinions and Comments
1
chilled out
i'm sorry but this ''bochur'' has got to get his schmutz together.....
no one mature enough and serious enough about a shidduch, dates this way..... im all for the ''dating course'' but taking superficial,picky,arrogant older guys as an example of the dating scene is utter rubbish.
(7/18/2009 4:37:37 AM)
2
Re: having at least 3 lined up
I believe this refers to the 2% of the dating boys - by that I mean the 2% who acctually will travel for a date!
(7/18/2009 10:40:56 AM)
3
excellent!
very profound article, thanks for posting

i was under the impression that girls, in seminary, are briefed on the basics and how to approach a date whereas the boys are not....

also many bochurim are using the principles of other wordly things by which to judge their dating experience rather than the way it is set out in the words of our Rebbeim, this is very unfortunate and can lead to a bochur looking at his date and wishing her to be a movie star instead of a person he will build a chssidisher family with.
(7/18/2009 11:10:46 AM)
4
Single Bochur
I find it hard to believe that after talking with one guy who dates in such a manner, you go and write an entire article based on this one guy!
You even write yourself "although maybe not the norm ", so why continue to rant at the "Bochurim" who date in such a manner?

I fully agree that there should be some sort of system in place that gives some insight as to how to date, and how to act on a date etc.., but more importantly there should be more guidance to the daters as to what to expect and what to be looking for.

Its funny that the article is directed at the Bochurim, and seems to absolve the girls of all blame. Both sides need guidance, not just the Bochurim.

We live in a world with so many outside influences that unfortunately mess with peoples minds, and leaves them with unrealistic expectations as how to "know" when they have found their Bsahert.
If before people went out, they were advised by people experienced in these matters, what are the proper guidelines and expectations etc.. maybe there would be more Shidduchim happening.

One other point is that daters should not be talking about their dates with their friends. Perhaps talking to one or two older married friends makes sense, but the rampant talking and comparing that goes on, is also certainly another obstacle in our wonderful Shidduch system.

From someone who never comments at these "opeds", but this time just couldn't resist.
Let the comments fly!


(7/18/2009 12:59:19 PM)
5
with a son who's looking for his bashert
How about the guys with massive egos who are looking for a girl who's a size zero, with a face to stop traffic & a Daddy who has a very healthy bank balance?

What about the girls who are looking for a professional, rich, & handsome "orphan", or at least one who isn't tied to mama's apron?

Both the bochurim & the girls are totally unrealistic. If you're chronologically old enough to get married, you need to grow up & get your priorities right. And speed/multiple dating isn't the way to go, either!
(7/18/2009 2:50:33 PM)
6
multiple dates
I know this seems a little new to some of you, but the concept of travelling to meet a few dates is not a new idea.

It only makes sense (especially with how shadchanim these days suggest dates -not knowing either side and just plucking names from a list-), that if someone is going to make a trip which he cannot do every other week, and for some reason the person he was set up with does not work out, that he has other options while he has made this long trip.
(It goes without saying that all of this is done with a focused mindset of finding your bashert and not fooling around)

Forsure everyone wants to meet their bashert the first time and all should work out well, but being realistic and practical, this is not always what happens. So to have other dates while making a trip is not evil,disgusting and vulgor, it is simply dealing with the reality of doing all you can to find your bashert in a most practical way.

I know some people will write comments about how this is unheard of and has never been the way etc...
But for those who are ready to open up to being practical, this is an attempt to explain such practices.

May all those who need a shidduch find their bashert very soon without needing to have these complex issues.

Gut Voch
(7/18/2009 3:20:04 PM)
7
ayyyyyyyyy
BULL ....... the system IS messed up!
(7/18/2009 3:25:15 PM)
8
Poor article
Aricle deals with extremes

Sloppy and not respectful to bocurim

(7/18/2009 3:32:08 PM)
9
Sim Shalom Org.
DATING!
The word reeks of goyishe values. Feh!
GOING OUT - maybe.
MEETING - That's what it's all about.

SHIDDUCHIM BASICs (101):
Any "ballpark" shidduch suggestion needs to be investigated (researched before meeting, for sure) and rejected ONLY if there is substantial (SUBSTANTIAL) reason.

Who do you think sent this idea into this world? Any suggestion comes from the Eibishter, don't fool around with it. As one local Rov-Mashppia says: "What? Are you buying bathroom tiles that you keep on the search? You reject this one because you think you can do better?" If after meeting 3 times there is nothin positive and minor negativres - well that seems not to be the one. But stick to it for 3 times. Otherwise you are "dating" (and probably having (vicariously) a great time. Without admitting it, and blaming a "system."

Leave the dating for the Litvakess (and the modern Orthodox). We are not like Williamsburg - but please, give me a break, all this talk sounds like buying meat in a supermarket. There isn't an ounce of a chassidishe derech in all this talk.
And no wonder we get so many calls for troubled marriages. (Marriage problems? sim.shalom.uveracha@gmail.com). We have been thinking of advertising "Don't get married until you both come to us for an evaluation - $100 please."

The part of the "system" that is broken?
Somewhere along the way it has become acceptable (and in some instances a qualification) to appoint mashpiyim who are fools. Yes. Shoytim. You wouldn't follow their advice if you were lost in a jungle. They are just "luft menchen" whose accomplishment is virtually limited to "ideology" - which unfortunately (except for shlichus - a narrowing career field) is all Chabd-Lubavitch has now. Even the learning. Think about it - while there are still those who believe you are permitted to think (a dying breed.)
(7/18/2009 3:57:17 PM)
10
nothing new under the sun
this is not a new thing for boys traveling to meet a girl out of ny. In the outside world this is the norm, too. Or, the option is for the girls dad to pay for the boy to come....especially if its the girl who might refuse additional dates.
(7/18/2009 4:01:19 PM)
11
Thanks for speaking out
Excellent points, Your solution is very necessary and I hope despite your busy shlichus obligations you will be able to spearhead a campaign for these classes to happen. Much hatzlocha!
(7/18/2009 4:10:40 PM)
12
The fact is - IT WORKS!
However much people would like to criticize the dating system (or the people withing the system), Kein Ayin Horah many Bochrim and Girls are getting engaged, and MORE THAN EVER!!!

Most of those people who complain about the Shidduch system end up finding their match through the very same system. It is just very frustrating UNTIL one finds their match, so a good way of venting their frustration is to blame the system/bochrim/girls/shadchonim etc...
(7/18/2009 4:27:54 PM)
13
The Good old fashioned Chassidic Way
The first date was all about seeing the other person and deciding wether to continue dating or not. The second date was more of the same but getting to know the other person hearing about their interests, family etc. If all went well the third date was a bit more serious where discussions about Shlichus, Kollel, employment, Chinuch Habbonim was discussed. The fourth was more of the same but if no feelings for each other was developed by then it was off. The fifth date was basically the deciding one with proposing or leaving it to the next date.
Todays Meshugas of going out 10 times and then remain undecided is Hepech Hachassidus and causes untold anguish to the two as well as parents and others. Bochurim and girls must be given a set of priorities and know what to look for. Parents must do alot of homework before dating begins.
(7/18/2009 4:51:02 PM)
14
SOLUTION to all such problems
Every bochur/girl must have a married mashpia! This will absolutely make all the difference. Classes don't sound very practical. The Rebbe said to have a mashpia. The shiduch parsha is one time in life when this is not only recommended but absolutely crucial. And I mean crucial.
(7/18/2009 5:08:27 PM)
15
This article passes the buck too quickly
The shidduch crisis goes way beyond this article to the extent that it is almost a mockery of the situation to post such an article.

The system has to be reexamined from schooling and priorities and not just one bochur who wanted to date a few girls...
(7/18/2009 5:15:23 PM)
16
A Shadchun Speaking
The article is excellent. #4 and #5 are right on target. I've been involved in many shidduchim- both those that worked out and those that didn't. We have incorporated too much from the world at large and don't know how to stay focused on our goal (or perhaps even knowing what our goal is) - finding a partner in life and establishing bayis ne'eman beYisroel. # 13 delineates it quite succinctly.
(7/18/2009 5:27:40 PM)
17
the good old fashioned way
#12 said it exactly right
(7/18/2009 5:27:49 PM)
18
no. 6
Yes, I wanted to say the same as poster no. 6. The bochur hopes he won't need a second option. Nowadays many shidduchim do not happen with your first one you dated so you gotta be practical. If the bochur is going to travel esp. if it is far , it is o.k. to say no I won't travel unless there are a few options. I don't think this has to have any influence while he is going out with the first one.
Besuros Tovos
I wish everyone HAD to be on one list with alittle of what he/she is all about or looking for, for instance on The chabadmatch database. Then no one would feel it is below their dignity to be registered on it. This would definitely make shidduchim easir and quicker.
(7/18/2009 5:41:12 PM)
19
chabadmatch.com
there are articles on how to date.
(7/18/2009 5:52:52 PM)
20
Chanochy
Thanks for being a mentch and posting you name. I agree one hundred percent
(7/18/2009 6:06:43 PM)
21
to # 6#18
so what do you say to the other 2 potential girls after the 1st one you date is your bashert!!! And what if they are all friends, hey I'm dating Moshe Shmo, oh you too....
(7/18/2009 6:13:54 PM)
22
This is not the norm
Please don't post every person's thought's I know many Buchrim today and they say that this is a nonesence
(7/18/2009 7:00:15 PM)
23
post sem
the system is definetly in need of some help but as a girl who was just in seminary this year we had a very knowledgable mrs shusterman come speak to us and knock some sense into our heads and it was very enlightening, maybe it would help for someone to speak to the bochurim??
(7/18/2009 7:06:36 PM)
24
to #21
No, the other options are not so officially set up yet. Also the bochur involved should not know that there are other possibilities. It is O.K. if the parent responds by asking "are there other options if this does not work out" not that it has to be this way. I am just saying you can't blame a parent for wanting to have other options before the son travels.
(7/18/2009 7:14:40 PM)
25
Mothers Against Shidduch Crisis-WHAT ARE WE ALL WAITING FOR

On behalf of parents who are doing their Hishtadlus and still having a very hard time….
Thank you Rabbi Hecht for your openness, for bringing this vital topic, in a very difficult time, to the open. Very excellent points have been made in the comments.
I would like to suggest as follows:
Lets all –parents of the run of the mill girls and bochurim that are ready to date- get on the band wagon and join Chabad Match. Its run professionally. B”H Lubavitch has grown so big that my daughter doesn’t even know girls her age in our own city, let alone do research on a girl that is not her age. Where do we start in this day and age…
(And I have done quite a few nice shidduchim in the past BH.) The Galus has become a lot more thicker. I believe that info can be entered onto Chabad Match in a tzniusdike manner, in a way that gives parents a jumpstart to know if they should at least look in.
Have at least the basics…..Age, Height, shlichus, etc..open to overseas suggestions,
FFB BT what is prefered...
Listen, every parent that is looking has files on most of the girls /bochurim anyways, but it takes months to collect info…………
If the parents don’t enter the info, perhaps there should be a large database where us searching parents will begin to enter info we have on girls /Bochurim to help parents speed things up. Its time we bring everything to the open.
If we all jump in together I guarantee Shidduchim will pick up immediately, the search will be easier, and once a bunch of us start, it will be so successful, that others wont want to be left out. Look how helpful Google became….look how popular COL became once the simcha pictures began to appear….sometimes we have to realize change has to take place to improve things….the time is NOW. Please check out Chabadmatch. I don’t work for them I am just a parent and would like to help others reach their dreams a bit easier.
Thank you and besuros Tovos.....
(7/19/2009 12:50:44 AM)
26
Sim Shalom Org
OPtions Option.
Bathroom tiles here we come.
Focus on one at a time - otherwise you aren't "looking". You are just "glancing". Maybe like looking at icons on the screen.
(7/19/2009 2:00:51 AM)
27
to #14
the Rebbe spoke about having a Mashpia - correct. but just check pirkei avos - it speaks about it there too ;)
(7/19/2009 2:01:25 AM)
28
Brooklyn Shidduch Group! (chabadshidduch@aol.com)
Negativity won't help. But WE can. One piece of the solution is participating in our group which meets 1-2x per month. Women present profiles of singles ANONYMOUSLY, which are then distributed amongst the group. We make contacts, follow up later. It is MUCH easier to get info on someone this way.This is a people-to-people effort with a VIRAL aspect (healthy viral, that is). We have been meeting for over one year. Many dates and engagements have happened. We also address ruchniusdik and practical issues. We're available to help other groups start, too. Please contact us ! Our next meeting is Monday, July 20 at 8:30 PM at Bais Menachem Mendel, 1000 E 17th St (Aves I-J). Join us : bring a profile of an in-town single.
BTW we have had a couple of men present themselves or other men, so don't be shy ....
(7/19/2009 5:08:04 AM)
29
The System Aint Broke
It is the people who are.

Unfortunately, this article reflects a new trend with very shallow values. These problems continue into marriage and chinuch of Children. Marriage is tachlis, not a fulfillment of some Hollywood version of bliss.

If the bochur/girl approach meeting on a shidduch with tachlis and higher goals in mind, this doesn't happen.

So lets get back to basics.
(7/19/2009 5:45:46 AM)
30
NUMBER 13
Maybe I am old...I dont think so (earlyn 40s) but that was very well said - and was the norm in my day as well. In fact you could have been my wife, posting with such accuracy. And we were all pretty 'cool' and 'with it' in those days. So somewhere down the line someone is missing a trick,...
(7/19/2009 5:46:54 AM)
31
from a post sem girl
I was just in sem. They did teach a course on dating, but of course, they only decided to do so at the end of the year, therefore rushing it. We didn't learn as much as we'd have wanted to. I agree with the the suggestion that classes should be set up. While the girls learn some tips, we don't know as much as we should. I feel bad for boys, who are not taught how to go about dating. They, too, need to learn the correct approach. I am fairly attractive, a size 2, from a good family, and I am still worried about having a difficult time due to unrealistic expectations from boys. While we are told not to care too much about external things, the boys are mainly concerned with that, and where does that leave us girls??
Now that I am in shidduchim, well only just beginning, I am starting to wonder if the system is really something we are told about as teens to prevent us from messing with the opposite gender. Why is it that so many couples these days found each other on their own? And why does it seem to work? This system must really have some holes in it.
(7/19/2009 6:03:49 AM)
32
compare shopping
if when being a bochur or single girl one can not compare so when should they do so. Comparing gives a person a sense of confidence in their final choice. It gives a person a realistic picture of what there is to choose from.

Does anyone buy a car by just looking at one car??? or a house by looking at one house. People are crazy and have confused ideas of everything, that's all. We takeh need the Rebbe back with us to set us all straight -- ad mosai
(7/19/2009 6:18:30 AM)
33
dont bother with chabadmatch
(7/19/2009 6:40:19 AM)
34
Post Sem
I was in seminary two years ago and they taught us little to nothing about dating. The teacher mostly focused on our tznius and shaitels. In the meantime, my friend in another seminary told me this same teacher discussed dating and marriage very openly and properly. I wish my seminary had taught us more, and I think it would be a very good idea for the seminaries and yeshivas to incorporate it into the curriculum.
(7/19/2009 7:32:54 AM)
35
I Don't Get It
I am a bochur, learning in 770, in the "parsha". My parents are on shlichus and ke"h have many mouths to feed, as such, they can't help me very much financially.

A shadchan proposed a name from Austrailia - it sounds promising, but the ticket will cost a small fortune. Another name came up from Israel - also sounds good.

Is there anything "wrong" in booking a ticket that allows for both meetings? I couldn't afford to book to seperate round trip tickets to Austrailia and then Israel!!

Likewise, if I am already in Austrailia, should I not ask the shadchan that "in case" it doesn't work out, maybe I should meet someone else while i am there.

Is it one airline ticket per shidduch? Is that the "rule"??

This year I spent nearly $10,000 on shidduch airfare to check out a few names in various parts of the world - and it is becoming absurd. I simply cannot afford to keep buying tickets to meet one girl who after 1/2 an hour it is clear that we are not a good match.

Please explain what is wrong with planning a few names on one ticket!
(7/19/2009 7:54:55 AM)
36
shadchan crises
there is a shadchan crises not a shiduch crises
(7/19/2009 8:44:42 AM)
37
Sim Shalom Org
To # 34:
The parents in Australia (with a giirl to marry) should get her over here.
There is such a shortage on bochurim , you should not need to travel overseas.
It is obviously not "min hashomayim" if they can't even send their daughter to the place where it is happening.
Let some other loser travel to these losers..
(7/19/2009 9:19:37 AM)
38
i feel sorry for #34..poor research...
#34 you are certainly not getting the right info....dont go untill you have all the facts straight....whoever is doing your research needs to be alot more clear and thorough...
there are questionaires out there thatt can help screen details that may surface stuff that you didnt have to shlep out for...........
(7/19/2009 9:38:04 AM)
39
Brooklyn Shidduch Group Are you ok to publicize who are the main 10 woman involved?
It can be very helpful to us mothers out on shlichus or out of town............or out of the loop........or tired of impersonal shadchan suggestions......
Does it represent the full spectrum of chabad..- i.e. .FFB BT Run of the mill boys and girls- or older-cases??
Thanks alot
(7/19/2009 9:48:24 AM)
40
shiduchim
I would like to tell every parent that the most important thing to do before your son or daughter goes out on their first date, is sit down with him or her and study together the whole Sefer with the Rebbe's letters in the original on shiduchim and marriage. If you as a parent dont understand Hebrew and Yidish, you will be doing the biggest Mitzvah by finding someone close and respected by your children to sit down and learn word by word from inside the Sefer. Even if they tell you, they know it all, or even if they tell you we live in a different world today. Whatever their excuses are, if you can manage this, they might argue and disagree with you, but once you went thru it with them,letter by letter,it makes ALL THE DIFFERENCE IN THE WORLD. You have the Brochos of the Rebbe and the advice of the Rebbe and its good for the parents too, Sometimes we tend to stray off the right path also.It reminds us also what we are looking for. Hatslacha Rabba
(7/19/2009 10:35:02 AM)
41
To #32 and #34
#32 -

You are correct that when shopping, one compares.
However, the reality is that in a shiduch you are not shopping, you are trying to find your one "basherte". You mention the Rebbe - the Rebbe often quotes the sources that describe searching for a shidduch like someone looking for that which they have lost. It's a specific "item". Your objective is meerly to identify it. Don't make it hard on yourself, or those you come in contact with. Focus on only one person at a time. If it's good, you're done! If it's not - close the door on this one - and search somewhere else. I'm telling you - it's not shopping, please don't compare them.
(You are certainly correct that we need the Rebbe back. However, he left us with a WORLD of information, ho'ro'os, sichos, ma'amorim, letters, reshimos, etc.., and we all see that his brochos are fresh every day. Let us use them. My experience has taught me, that sometimes you need to ask....).

To #34
You too bring up a good (and painful) point. It is commendable that you are concerned for your parents streched resources. Perhaps the answer is that if you are making a trip, you could ask the shadchan to line up some other possibilties, but not discuss them with you. You should go to meet the one that your parents or shadchan believe have the greatest promise. If C'V it doesn't work out, they will have some other possibilities lined up while you are there. Please see the paragraph (to #32) above.

B'suros tovos!!
(7/19/2009 11:12:07 AM)
42
Eternal joy
does eternal joy have it all?
(7/19/2009 11:12:51 AM)
43
Been there, done that . ..
If only what you are saying would be true about Chabadmatch. . but nothing is further from the true reality;
My daughters profile, in detail, may I add, has been on Chabad match now , for at least, SIX months. . and we have'nt recieved ANY feedback, whatsoever. . no response , no sign of life. . and whats more, when we attempt to look into a profile, ourselves, about a bochur, we totally hit a brick wall; They raised our hopes so much about thae successes of Chabadmatch, and how well it works, but unfortunately, both myself and a good number of my friends who are in the same boat, i.e. a parent of an ''older single'', are totally disillusioned about the whole 'brilliant idea''. . at the end of the day, if no one and nothing is followed through, the whole website is pointless and is just one more bitter disappointment in our already messed up system . . . and yet one more raised hope. . . dashed;
(7/19/2009 11:13:13 AM)
44
;lkj
I'm a guy and was on the shiduch market for 6 years (thank G-d no longer), and I very rarely met the people discussed in this article.

Why does every Tom, Dick and Harry who has a half-baked idea, get to publish it on this forum?
(7/19/2009 11:40:45 AM)
45
boich sevoro
How can you write an article bashing the bochurim "within the system" when you yourself concede that this "may not be the norm".

I assure you it is not the norm.

The big problem is our system is people like you who feel that just because they have a boich-sevoro and smicha, that their opinions somehow mean something.
(7/19/2009 11:45:24 AM)
46
plans
Rabbi Hecht, thank you for writing.

However is this another article by some bored rabbi telling other people to do something, or are YOU going to do something about it?

Please keep us posted on your plans to put the dating course together. If you have no plans (which is what I suspect), you should not be jumping into the fray. We have enough people talking the talk. Are you ready to walk the walk?
(7/19/2009 11:50:44 AM)
47
to #31
if you want to do it on your own i know alot of bochurim who would be opened to someone intellegent like you who seems to have their head screwed on straight and knows what she wants. good luck with shidduchim if you want to email me i can maybe help set you up with some bochurim from the many that i know
If you are interested you can email hatomimhashliach@yahoo.com
(7/19/2009 12:08:03 PM)
48
Travel
What happened to the time when it was the boy who went to meet the girl ie travels the distance...
(7/19/2009 12:16:28 PM)
49
Did you see that?
#47 what are you doing? !

My friends, we have often heard about the dangers of the internet. Well here you have it before your very eyes. An innocent young lady (#31) wonders out loud, and #47 jumps to offer her a "do it on your own" proposition...

#31, the system may have faults, but please don't "do it on your own"? Would you like your daughter to be able to write, as you did, "from a good family"?
(7/19/2009 12:37:57 PM)
50
#35 is a genius
wow! you are on the ball! end of the day, u must be invovled with a bad shadchan! but quit flying around the world for a shidduch! good luck
(7/19/2009 12:39:49 PM)
51
To #35
Regardless of what other people on this forum may think, I think that you are absolutely right!

Among Chabadniks, there should be one "central place" where people meet. That "place" should be Crown Heights, considering that it is the central hub of Lubavitch.

(Technically speaking, most Bochrim that are looking for a Shidduch should be in or around CH anyway.)

If you are a Bochur or girl and live in anywhere among the 6 continents of the world, and are looking for a Shidduch, you should fly into Crown heights to meet the Bochur/girl. If money is an issue for you, then stay in Crown Heights and find a job.

As a general rule, if YOU are not in Crown Heights, and the prospective date IS, the onus is upon YOU to fly to NY from wherever you are.
(7/19/2009 1:28:09 PM)
52
Mom and Friend
Firstly, the way I use Chabadmatch is that when a name comes up, I go there to find out more. I think that is probably the best use of the site. I wish more people would put up profiles.

Secondly, although I'm very much against it, one way of avoiding spending big bucks on travel when you can't afford it is to maybe set up a video online meeting, just to see if its worth pursuing. I think if you're in the same country, that is not valid, but from overseas it may work. The Litvish are doing it.
(7/19/2009 2:20:20 PM)
53
# 31
Don’t be too concerned keep your chin up.

Guess what…I’m a working boy looking to get married. Are you looking for shlichus?
(7/19/2009 2:27:17 PM)
54
As a Shadchan...
As someone that has successfully made a number of shidduchim BH, this article misses the problem entirely.

1. The crisis is one of numbers. There are simply more girls than guys.
2. To be a "chasidisher" bochur is more difficult than to be a chasidisher girl. Thus there are more "good" girls than guys.
3. This is a major part of the equation: years back, girls after seminary and bochurim after shlichus convened in CH. There were many people that knew bochurim and girls and were able to come up with shidduchim. Today girls are spending their post seminary years on "shlichus" (which is itself questionable) and no one knows them.
4. Parents have to stop thinking of a guy/girl that suits them and get real about their kids. Many times I have suggested names and have been rebuffed because "that's not what we are looking for".
A solution: People need to see this as a communal crisis and therefore when they think of a name, either call the family or call a shadchan to suggest it.
(7/19/2009 3:22:19 PM)
55
...is there a shadchan in the house??
This is great ........lets set it up here
(7/19/2009 3:37:26 PM)
56
whose taking achrayus ....
i think that each person looking for a shidduch should have a profile, and a short video clip of themself. They can follow a standard questionaire....Parents need information....this will speed things up........and one database for everyone Chabadnik......Cmon...maybe COL are willing to start this....................
(7/19/2009 3:41:37 PM)
57
Speaking of COL helping the Shidduch crisis
Dont you wish the wonderful photographer at Lchaims and weddings can digitally place names on the bochurim. Im serious....Knowledge knowledge knowledge is what us parents need...to speed things up........
(7/19/2009 3:55:44 PM)
58
5 dates? maybe.
#13 - 5 dates is not enough for everybody. Let's not be closed minded here, in many situations the rebbe told the couple to take as long as they need. Ok we are not talking about months and months, but even A month to 6 weeks is acceptable, i think. Each person has to speak to his or her mashpia. May we continue to build yiddishe and chassidishe homes in klal yisroel.
(7/19/2009 3:58:25 PM)
59
to #53
No, I am looking for a working boy. Maybe we can arrange to meet the same shadchan and perhaps give dating a try..
(7/19/2009 4:00:07 PM)
60
to #59
wouldnt a profile on #53 be helpful right now? you will know to look further or drop it..........
(7/19/2009 4:07:06 PM)
61
Where is Charlie Buttons' article?
It seems like everybody and nobody writes articles these days and gets them published. I am just waiting for Charlies article.
(7/19/2009 4:22:15 PM)
62
#61?
What does Charlie Buttons' have anything to do with what we are discussing? The articles that are being published are actually excellent because they provide great discussion forum. Hopefully something will be done tho- as a previous commenter wrote- Did the talk, now let's do the walk!
(7/19/2009 4:42:37 PM)
63
to # 60 and 59
# 60
Hey…im trying to get a date…bug off!

To # 59
I’m typically a nice and friendly guy but # 60 is just rubbing me the wrong way…
working...Ok…good start. which shaddchan do you propose?
(7/19/2009 5:10:44 PM)
64
to number 56
since when did lubavitch become "dating you tube"?
(7/19/2009 5:48:19 PM)
65
it's me, 31 again
to 59, it's ok you can have 31. I, too, am looking for a working boy, but I will be nice here. And to 47, I appreciate your suggestion too, but I wasn't looking to start something up here. And are you sure you aren't showing interest because I said I am attractive and a size 2? See, that's exactly my point!! You get the slim girl and it's all good? Is that what you think?
(7/19/2009 5:52:29 PM)
66
to#42
Eternal Joy has it all, but you will get much more spiritually inspired and it will touch you much deeper by learning it inside.You will be able to put it into actual practice.
(7/19/2009 6:08:37 PM)
67
size 2
the so called young generation of chassidik boys want chassidik girls, who look like models and are a size 2. They claim to want spiritual, but actually,they look basically only at the physical. That is the reality. If the guys would loosen up a bit, and let go of their unrealistic expectations of what a wife is, they would discover that there are alot of nice,sweet , intelligent and capable girls living in Crown Heights from every single continent. If they would stop to think about important issues like having children and raising them,having a chassidishe atmosphere in the house,etc. etc. What blows my mind more then everything,is the mothers who come and say,vat size iz zi, efsher a picture, mine zun vil a shaine meidel. Anyway, isnt this all about venting our frustrations,and seeing we are all in the same boat.
(7/19/2009 6:39:32 PM)
68
whos responsibility is it?
While your parents want to help you and make sure you find someone suitable, ultimately it is your responsibility to find your own boy/girl, not the shadchan, not your parents, its your responsibility. Go do something about it.
(7/19/2009 6:51:07 PM)
69
To #37 Sim Shalom Org
What you say is horrible. Shame on you.
LOSERS? The REBBE sent my family specifically on SHLICHUS to Australia if you would like to know!!!
But of course, because CH is 'the place to be' I came... and I was NOT neccessarily welcomed... because people have to take the time to be interested in you....
Besides the fact that boys don't want to marry a girl from Australia because they don't want to move there (of course it's fine for the girl to have to move the thousands of miles like many of my friends...)

So I'm now back in Australia... and you know what I'm still on Shlichus... just unmarried. And may I continue to have the Rebbe's Brochos wherever I may be and I will shine whether I get married this year on in another few years.

As for you, sorry I wouldn't send anyone to you for counselling in a million years. Generally, what you said on dating I agree on... but maybe YOU need a mashpia to get your senses right...
(7/19/2009 11:25:17 PM)
70
CRAZY!!!
Anyone living in australia that wants to date americans needs to be in the states. If you live in australia and want to stay in australia then date auzzies! PERIOD. No guy should be spending $1900 to meet a potential shidduch! Its ludicrous to even suggest so. The same is rue with israelis. those that are looking for americans need to find themselves in the US/Canada or fuggetaboutit!!
(7/20/2009 4:36:31 AM)
71
I'm 59...to #31:
It's ok. Actually you can take him. I'm not a size 2, I'm a 0..
(7/20/2009 5:16:51 AM)
72
Combined Crisis
It's the focus on looks (why is "height" basic information?!! - #25 And don't bochurim know that weight fluctuates?! - I went from a size 10 to a size 6 shortly after I got married, whereas a size 0 I know went up to 12 after having a baby)

It's the lack of shadchonim who care (the shadchan in my shidduch was just a figurehead, for $1000, while the REAL shadchonim were friends/siblings)

It's the lack of dating information (that's why you need, absolutely NEED a mashpia!)

It's the parents (why do you turn down good shidduchim over narishkeiten, status, gezhe, money, tablecloths and "illness in the family) Parents - you need to discuss this with YOUR mashpiim too!

We all need to become shadchonim here, not for the money but for the mitzvah. May all those looking for shidduchim find them bekorov mamosh!
(7/20/2009 5:31:42 AM)
73
To #59

You tricked me…I thought you were #31. For now I can only date one at a time…confusing as is.

However, I can lock you in just in case #31 does not work out…ohh, that’s the point of the article…

PS Size 0? Is that possible?
(7/20/2009 5:42:56 AM)
74
I'm a size 12. ANYONE WANT ME?
(7/20/2009 5:45:11 AM)
75
to #74
I'm engaged to a size 12 and she is the nicest and most beautiful girl I ever met! Yes, there is hope!!

I must recommend though that it is very important for you to dress well and look your best. Size to me didn't matter, but a girl who took care of her looks did.
(7/20/2009 6:42:28 AM)
76
Cant believe what Im reading
I cannot believe how you people are just turning this whole situation into a ''comedy show'' . . its just unreal, how people are making 'small' the whole current shidduch issue. . because thats just what it is to hundreds of us. . an absolutely major issue; to sit here and read, young guys/girls totally mocking and reducing it all to one big joke, is totally not on. . and COL should not be printing it.
Its a sensitive issue and being that many of us find it far from funny, infact , anything but . . people should reflect and think carefully before ''exchanging dates'', talking about dress sizes and generally putting down the whole scenario and discussion; surely the whole purpose of these topics is 'Tachlis' . and therefore ridiculing and mocking it completely defeats the purpose'
GROW UP AND SHOW SOME CONSIDERATION TO OTHERS! BE THANKFUL THAT YOU"RE NOT IN IT YOURSELVES!! and instead of mocking and laughing, DO SOMETHING POSITIVE AND CONCRETE!! or else, keep quiet and keep away!!

(7/20/2009 6:49:39 AM)
77
Sim Shalom Org
To # 69:
There is are underlying fallacies in your shrill response.

I happen to be Australian born.

I also happen to have sufficient marriage "counselling" to have the local non-Jewish women's shelter refer cases, and request lectures for local case workers.

Oh - and did I mention I'm a shlliach?

I respectfully suggest that your are not yet ready for a shidduch for the following reason: A bochur that would be prepared to hike out there is not going to be THE bochur for your high-powered (if not self-centered [centred]) attitude.
So if you are not a loser (and it seems you are not) then sitting out there will gravitate you to that title.

Until you can be realistic to understand that, then you are not yet ready.

AND THIS is the only shidduch crisis that I see [I may be wrong]. Too many of either gender are not realistic [read "immature"] about what marriage is all about, and as a consequence they cannot make up their minds.

No shadchan, nor web-site or mashpia, will solve this. As recently told by a mashpia (one of the rare wise ones) to a bochur who turned up to a simcha without a hat: "Bochur without hat will marry girl without head (read "using head".)

TO conclude: That's why the one-to-one (without shadchan ) is working (as some are trying here) - because the "hat" is removed.
(7/20/2009 6:54:01 AM)
78
TO #74
Yes, your bashert wants you. I hope him and his parents are mentchen so it happens sooner rather than later! (You can't prevent a shidduch...)
(7/20/2009 7:52:02 AM)
79
To #31
You got me thinking cause when I read your post I was also thinking "now that's a kind of girl I would date". Then in 65 you wrote to #47 that he likes you because you're a size 2. I disagree.
You are underestimating us guys. If you're post said "available size 2" you wouldn't have had the response that you have. Here’s what I saw in your post
1) You’re someone who questions and you question the system and people like me like to identify with ppl who sound like you do in #31. Like when you mention that you believe people finding each other on their own works.
2) You have a healthy self confidence. You know that you have good things going for you yet you are not overly confident. That’s a healthy balance and I’d be comfortable dating someone like that.
3) You think clearly
4) You’re from a good family
5) You’re sensitive to others (i.e. us guys “I feel bad for boys”)
6) You’re a good observer
7) And on top of all that you are fairly attractive
So, why is it that people assume us guys only care about the “physical” when there is so much more that you are showing here about who you really are?
To comment now on the article in general I think that Chabad Dating is not Dating. Chabad dating is “meeting someone”(I won’t elaborate on why that is). Therefore I don’t have 1 person on my list that I would want to meet I have a long list of all the names that I hear that sound practical. Then of those names I see which ones sound most likely to work.
Ne way I want to hear what you think about this. So, comment again plz.. if they’ve already stopped the comments (like they usually do after a while) email me ls11213@yahoo.com
(7/20/2009 8:18:54 AM)
80
To #74
If you think being a size #12 is not your best feature why is it the ONLY thing you write? If you were selling a car to someone would you say "do you want a car that has a scratch?” NO, you would talk about why the car is the right one for him. So when you sell yourself, sell on you qualities.
I personally believe that girls that are heavier than average (I don’t know what size 12 means) have it better in a social meeting setting than in a set-up blind date setting. In a social meeting a guy would meet her and see her as a person and would see more than just her size however when it comes to research it’s a lot harder to see the person as a whole. People tend to look at the specific anecdotes and some will stand out more than others.
(7/20/2009 8:50:13 AM)
81
31 agaaaainnn
I think I am going to write my own op-ed, what do you think?
(7/20/2009 9:11:37 AM)
82
#31, 47, 53, 59, 60, 65, 71, 73, 79
What on earth is going on here? At first I thought it was cute, and potentially exciting, that maybe a shidduch could be made through the collive comments, but this is already getting inappropriate!!! we're a mixed audience here.
And PS #73 - yes it is possible, I'm a 0 also, (naturally, not from dieting) and no I am not trying to get a date through here. (0 is just a number on a label, though it does make it sound like the wearer doesn't exist :) )
(7/20/2009 9:52:04 AM)
83
to 81
sure, go ahead! would love to read it
(7/20/2009 9:55:13 AM)
84
To #82
There is nothing inappropriate about my (#79) observation. In fact the word “inappropriate” means nothing to me since its definition is so vague and is subject to anyone’s opinion and approval. You may think it’s “inappropriate” for a girl to use a computer altogether that does not mean I should feel it’s “inappropriate” to comment on a girls post.
To #31 I’m sure if you write it, it will be intelligent but be prepared for lots of comments from ppl that don’t like to think for themselves.
(7/20/2009 10:19:54 AM)
85
#35 is back
Bottom line - Is it okay to plan a trip overseas for meeting more than just one person, or does each shidduch proposal proposal gets a "l'shem yichud" of its own flight and costly expenses??

The article suggests it's wrong to go planning on meeting more than one. Many comments seemed to suggest that there is nothing wrong with covering a few proposals on one trip.

I'm confused and would like to know the right answer.

Feed back please!!
(7/20/2009 11:14:31 AM)
86
to #79
Wow, you already figured out your future wife and want to meet her over a hundred words she wrote?
(7/20/2009 11:26:52 AM)
87
To Sim Shalom Org
Great, you label yourself as a shliach and a counsellor. Nevertheless, you are prepared to call me self centred and a loser? I didn't realise those equated.
Thankfully, I have enough self esteem to not be put off by meaningless internet posts from people who think they have an opinion but only can't wait to put their two cents in.
(7/20/2009 11:49:13 AM)
88
To all the people making shidduchim on collive
If these shidduchim actually work out that's great..... but just keep in mind that this is totally anonymous so you could be talking to your own cousin or something...And remember that not everyone on the internet is who they say they are.
(7/20/2009 2:03:42 PM)
89
to #84
Thanks for your response to my comment. I wish to clarify that I had no intention of implying that your comment specifically (or any of the specific comments) are inappropriate. I was referring to the general idea of making your own shidduch based on online, annonymous comments, especially with such a large, diverse audience reading and following every word. Perhaps the use of the word "inappropriate" was incorrect, however, for lack of a better word, I used it.
I will not be commenting further on this, since I do not wish to engage in prolonged discussion with a boy, even anonymously, unless it is on a shidduch, etc.
(7/20/2009 2:45:59 PM)
90
To #89
Intresting...you tell all that visit this site thee size of you're body and how you acheived it (#82) yet you will not have a normal discussion with anothr adult. Glad to see you have all of you're values incheck.
(7/20/2009 3:03:16 PM)
91
Sim Shalom Org
To #87:
"...you label yourself as a shliach..."

Huh? One either is or one isn't. No labels. Or, perhaps you called yourself one and it no more than a label?
The bottom line. I read and re-read your precious words. You apparently still don't get it.

Listen and learn..
(7/20/2009 3:14:13 PM)
92
hopelessly obese
hello everyone. i am just about the nicest person youve ever met. and i happen to have an unusually attractive face. I have a dazzling smile and twinkly eyes. My issue is my weight. and guess what ive had that issue since i started dating 7 and a half years ago and guys these days are all the same- they only care about size!~~!! get a life you "bochurim" where is the chassidish varmkeit that existed 50 years ago? where has this generation come to? boys get your eyes in the sfarim and off the girls sizes! its pnimius that counts and i wish i could scream that to everyopne i met. For anyone whod like to respond, my email is: standingontheside1@gmail.com
(7/20/2009 4:44:27 PM)
93
TO #31
ITS #47 HERE AGAIN. I DIDNT SAY THAT I THINK YOURE SMART BECAUSE YOU SAID YOURE A SIZE 2.
i SAID THAT IT SEEMS TO ME THAT YOURE A NICE GIRL WHO COMES FROM A GOOD FAMILY, AND YOU MENTIONED THAT THERE ARE COUPLES WHO FOUND EACH OTHER ON THEIR OWN AND IT SEEMS TO WORK FOR THEM WELL MAYBE IT CAN WORK FOR YOU TOO. I HAPPEN TO KNOW MANY BOCHURIM WITH WHOM I CAN SET YOU UP WITH, I UNDERSTAND BOCHURIM AND I KNOW THE ISSUES AT HAND IE; JUST LOOKING FOR A SIZE 2....BEING IN TO CHIZOINIYUS ETC.
ANYWAYS SERIOUSLY IF YOURE INTERESTED OR ANYONE ELSE HERE LOOKING FOR A SHIDDUCH YOU CAN SEND AN EMAIL TO HATOMIMHASHLIACH@YAHOO.COM

(7/20/2009 5:27:17 PM)
94
tp #90
Ya, she does (it is a she you're talking about, right?) - she does not want to talk to a boy. adult or not adult, in our circles, boys and girls dont talk to each other before marriage. Need I explain further? As to the beginning of you're comment, it looked to me like she was simply answering someone's question, which no one else did, and proving it with personal experience. Have you read the latest article yet on the top of the collive homepage? maybe that's why she adds a few words about non-dieting. sheesh, a little dan l'caf zchus here!
(7/20/2009 5:50:34 PM)
95
To #86
You see, that's what I thing is very wrong with the way many ppl in CH think. You think that because I complimented a girl on her intelligence and said that I saw more in her post then the mention of her size (as she was assuming) and I also said she's the type of girl I would date therefore you conclude that I'm conjuring up an imaginary person in my mind who is my future wife.

Does that mean that if I meet a girl who I'm impressed with she will be (in my mind) my future wife? Can I not be impressed with a girl who will not end up as my wife? The reason people date is to see if a person they like can be a person they want to spend the rest of their lives together with.

I was pointing out that if you're talented you can learn a lot about a person by how they communicate.

Sincerely, #79
(7/20/2009 6:07:30 PM)
96
Flying on a Jet Plane...
Australian girls are beginning to stay DownUnder after seminary as opposed to living in Ch...
There are many reasons.
1. They grew up in a far away place and when they move here they dont necessarily have any family or friends whose homes they can eat in for Shabbos and Yom Tov - imagine, living in a basement for 4/5 years and often eating alone on such days.
2. There is plenty of Shlichus in Australia that needs to be done -why do it here?
3. A girl enjoys dating in a place where she is comfortable.
4. Why should a girl spend her last few single years away from her family? Who knows where she will end up once shes married?
(7/21/2009 4:34:12 AM)
97
To #96
Everyone is entitled to make their own choices but I for one think it's absurd to fly to Australia to meet a girl for the first time and would never do it.
I think a girl like that who needs to date in a place where she's from (?!?!) would eventually want to live downunda anyway so she's probably better off staying in Australia and dating Aussies..
(7/21/2009 4:47:33 AM)
98
The Best Shadchan
G-d help us all!!!!!!!!!!!!
Get yourselves off facebook, stop complying with requests for a zillion references and even worse pictures-
Deal with people you trust - just like you do when picking a mashpia - and most importantly remember always that neither you nor your mother nor your friend and not even your shadchan are the ones finding your bashert - that was done by G-D before you were born!!!! Just let HIM do his work!
(7/21/2009 4:51:30 AM)
99
Thanks for The Comedy! "Comedy Show"
Scuse me......... #76?

I am Single and have dating for way longer than desired, So Dude! Have a sense of Humor!
The only way to get through shidduchim and Life is to laugh :)
And come on, that conversation with #31 was funny !
thanks for laugh peoples....


(7/21/2009 4:56:53 AM)
100
shidduch crisis resolved
let's focus on a solution:
Guys, a girl's size is not a guarantee for any prolonged period of time, u do realize that? Unless the idea of having children is foreign to u. Because of this so-called crisis, guys are somehow entitled to making ridiculous demands yet it is okay for him to show looking like he just woke up without a plan of where to go or what to do. Yes, imagine, take the time to prepare for the date and keep an open mind. I am very sorry we can't all look like the Hollywood actresses but let's face it you are not exactly George Clooney or Brad Pitt.
Girls, please get your priorities straight, figure out what you want and look for that. It is horrible to harass your spouse because they are not what you would like them to be. Yes dress up, make conversation, be sweet and have fun. The date is your responsibility too.
Parents - please get real, your child is very very precious but he/she is not an angel, not perfect, not you or what you imagine him/her to be. You are looking for a match for your child, for someone to make him/her happy, not for a new vase to brag to your friends about.
Shadchanim - put some work into it, just because you know a guy and a girl doesn't mean they are a perfect match and for Heaven's sake, learn to listen, when i tell you he is not for me because he wants to sit and learn all day and i want a working husband, chances are it's not gonna work no matter how many times we go out or how hard you try to convince us.
(7/21/2009 6:24:58 AM)
101
a joke
A shadchan (matchmaker) goes to see a poor man and says, "I want to arrange a marriage for your son."

The poor man replies, "I never interfere in my son's life."

The shadchan responds, "But the girl is Lord Rothschild's daughter."

"Well, in that case..."

Next, the shadchan approaches Lord Rothschild. "I have a husband for your daughter."

"But my daughter is too young to marry."

"But this young man is already a vice president of the World Bank."

"Ah, in that case..."

Finally, the shadchan goes to see the president of the World Bank.

"I have a young man to recommend to you as a vice president."

"But I already have more vice presidents than I need."

"But this young man is Lord Rothschild's son-in-law."

"Ah, in that case...."
(7/21/2009 7:53:01 AM)
102
Chitas
As soon as I started Davening everyday, actually twice a day, Mincha too, and saying Chitas everyday,which I never did in my life.And I only Davened till I finished Seminary, I found excellent Shidduchim for my children.Of course, not with my hands folded,I did my stressful calls every single solitary day without exception,except Shabbos, but then went back to it Motzei Shabbos.And I will tell you, I saw how the Aibershter makes every single Shidduch. You must do both: Daven and Work. The Aibershter puts us against the wall
(7/21/2009 1:28:38 PM)
103
to #92
Noone wants to marry someone who is overweight with health issues. this applies to boys and girls.
(7/21/2009 4:31:53 PM)
104
V'NOMAR AYMEN!!!!!!!!!
(7/22/2009 7:34:55 AM)
105
to the author
your article makes you seem like you are far removed from the "dating scene" and unaware of whats going on. if im not mistaken, you are no more than 26 yeas old and couldn't have dated that long ago. unless you didnt go about your dating in the conventional manner. either way, your next article should be one where you draw from your own experiances
(7/22/2009 10:44:10 AM)
106
YOU MUST READ
I have read the books you all quote here, i have learned about shiduchim, i search for articles, etc...
Every person is a different "problem", if for someone is not knowing enought about it for others is not having a good shadchan, or the parents, or even yourself, etc (the list goes on and on on who to blame) the truth is you can not say one specific thing b/c this crises has been going on for years, and no one can solve it in a few words, you think by just writing everything you know and think or something that happened to you and you are still angry about it or how ever you feel, i understand that these are all anonymous and you could write whatever you want, i think it's good, don't get me wrong. But "Naming" the problem won't solve it, it won't make it easier, "naming" something is limiting and you could be going on the wrong direction without even realizing and it could be years to find the way back and "fix" it.
About TRAVELING FOR A FEW DATES...from my experience i've traveled thinking that having more that one date could be wrong, what a mistake i have done!!!when i got there we were setting a date, time and the person from day to night change his/her mind, gave an excuse canceling and bye bye, can you imagine how i fell, being there just a few days, having one Matoroh and FAILING on my mission!!!NOT HAVING A PLAN B!!!
But, like i said don't "name" the problem!This person was just another piece in my puzzle to form the final "image".KEEP FOCUS!!!
We should only hear good news!!!from all of us here!
(7/22/2009 2:07:27 PM)
107
to the loser in 337 Sim shalom org
Australians are not losers. In face we are some of the most well known and most liked girls in chabad seminaries today! and some of us live here because we need to be on shlichus in OUR communities. the Rebbe emphasised shlichus not sitting in crown heights and does it hurt to give a little back to the people who helped raise you!

Think before you speak loser!
(7/23/2009 1:10:59 AM)
108
106
your story does not prove that dating with a single focus is wrong. it just shows that BOTH sides need to have the same values in terms of dating in order for it to work.
i live out of CH and unfortunately have been in the shidduch seen for a number of years. whenever somebody flies in for me, i am extra careful to give the prospect proper time and attention. i try not to delve too deeply into the decision making process until after two, and many times three, meetings. i feel that it is only respectful to someone who is in town for a few days to give them the time of day and not leave them feeling like they wasted their time.
(7/23/2009 11:18:18 AM)
109
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
#108 that was exactly the point of #106!!!
"it just shows that BOTH sides need to have the same values in terms of dating in order for it to work. "
(7/25/2009 5:20:09 PM)
110
To Sim Shalom Org
All I can say is some of what you say is important but the way you present your argument is not at all beneficial to your own point of view. Remember that no one wants to be criticised, and that to get your own view across to the other person, he/she must feel like they are being heard. It's only when you have softened the boundaries that you can push your point across.

Anyway, I don't think that that writer was saying that American boys need to travel to Australia. The point was that Australia is a very viable place to be, however attitudes that Australia is 'far out' or 'for losers' makes people think that it is not the place to be. But I know of quite a number of boys and girls who do live here, and although the chances are greater in NY, it boils down to only one person! We have to ask Hashem to make it happen, whether in NY or Australia.
(7/26/2009 2:50:37 AM)
111
To one "with a son who's looking for his bashert"
]]with a son who's looking for his bashert
]]How about the guys with massive egos who are looking ]]for a girl who's a size zero, with a face to stop traffic & a ]]Daddy who has a very healthy bank balance?

]]What about the girls who are looking for a professional,r
]]ich, & handsome "orphan", or at least one who isn't tied ]]to mama's apron?

Do not worry, they will meet each other...
(8/5/2009 2:00:45 PM)
112
Question to #103
Including those who have these issues????
(8/5/2009 2:03:03 PM)
113
to #2
You're nasty! And who says that people who only have one prospective date aren't willing to travel?! I know some who do....and they're not all girls!
(9/10/2009 1:37:40 PM)
114
hehe
just wanted to make 114 comments
(9/12/2009 10:44:50 PM)
115
Did anyone consider?
#1) As R. Hecht said it should be only 1 girl at a time AND for those who need to travel - after checking references - ever thought of having a few dates by phone to speak [or skype?] to see if you have enough in common so that you know to make the trip and it will be "worthwhile"?
#2) why can't there be an online resource similar to askMoses.com - where bochurim or sem girls can IM, email or call an acknowledge list of chassidishe, properly educated and practical counselors - so that shidduch issues/questions can be addressed as they are needed, in "real time"? This way the whole how many classes to give and when to start them is resolved. Even if you have a series of classes [which is a great idea] - it doesn't necessarly "click" until someone is actually in on a shidduch OR an issue may come up that doesn't fit into what was taught - very similar to calling a Rav to ask a shilah.
#3) the system works if you work it, use some sechel in choosing a proper mashpia and shaddchun & are guided by chassidishe Torah values with a significant amount of tehillim and davening. Going on "ones own" is just playing with fire.
(10/28/2009 1:40:07 PM)
116
commenting on the article
just because someone may be deemed "a chilled out bochur" doesnt mean that the individual is less of a learner. and just because a person can sometimes be a "chassidishe" or serious" bochur, doesnt mean he has the abilities or skills to be a serious lerner.
(11/25/2009 1:53:00 PM)
117
girls far from ch
there are many girls who have been in ch for many years and who have become depressed as all their lifes focus is shidduchim... and they are still single. It is an environment which sadly is not conducive to happy people. You are far from family, far from home, have to rely on other people for shabbos meals etc.
When girls remain in there home countries whether it be Australia, Israel, South Africa or even South America they are surrounded by their families, home, doing the things they want to be doing and are therefore able to be happy better people sometimes. Wouldnt you prefer to travel to date and meet someone enjoying life and passionate than date someone who is hating their life in crown heights? And no, just because they are far now doesnt mean they wont live away from home. Some girls are fine in crown heights but most girls are not!
(1/17/2010 10:01:29 AM)
118
Cool
cool
(5/12/2010 10:05:40 AM)
119
WHY?
why is everything about size? im a size six and proud of it!
(6/23/2010 9:57:46 AM)
120
concerned mother
rabbi your on the mark....so solutions please........how does one get daters to get serious?And shadchanim to HEAR them with patience......and delicately guide them?????????????waiting an article in response, thanks, tizku l,mitzvos
(7/26/2010 7:57:12 PM)
121
out of towner
probably all this people that are talking about the fact that is wrong to have few people to date when u have to fly far away,are crowhighsers , cuz like the guy #35 said , it gets really expensive ... you cant fly every two months in ny ...
and i wouldnt want to be like one of these 100 girls that walk around in crown heights in order to get marrie, if u want to get marrie, work seriously with a shadchan and you will end up finding the right one ... i dont like the idea of wandering around in ch waiting that somebody is gonna notice you for her son ... so u get GOOD INFORMATIONS and you travel wherever , but if is a shiduch from these shdachanim that just pick one guy and one girl and put them toghether , so for sure it would be better to have few shidduchim ... thats what i thing .... i might be wrong
(4/11/2011 4:05:01 PM)
122
wooooooooooooow!!!
sounds like a lot of fun!!!!! never new that getting married is sooooooo difficult!!! not that i have aaaaany clue of dating and stuff, i am just 17 years old, but i think if u find the bachur boring , u are not gonna bother meeting him again. so............the date has to be fun,!!!!!!!
(4/15/2011 7:31:44 AM)
123
questionable
What's funny about all this is that people seem to think that there is ONE set way to meeet someone. while, as everyone knows much too well, EVERYONE is different. If you think dating a person 5 times is enough to make a life long decision then go for it! I personally don't think it works like that unless your relationship is based ONLY on your proffesion and future plans. I don't see how a relationship, of emotional status, can be aroused in that short time. if it is, then there ya go and get married! No one is stopping you. but just, everyone is emotionally different. and it seems like your pressuring people to get married before they are ready. that's just not right.
(8/5/2011 8:48:51 PM)
124
Sad mother
What about all the guys who 'wont travel'. Do they imagine that the girls can just drop their jobs and lives and travel around the world all the time? Aside from both the emotional and financial cost, an older single has also developed a llife and cannot sit around in either CH or another city while many of these guys 'make time' to meet a couple of times and then say, 'well I'm busy, if you're coming into town again we could date a bit more but I dont have time now'?? There are a lot of older guys out there who really cant be bothered any more.
(12/12/2012 4:12:56 AM)
125
the essence
Who even looks into the essence of the person? So many families are looking into the family and dismiss a person purely based on the family if there is a divorce or a non frum sibling. The superficiality begins with the parents and trickles down to their children. Think about it.
(6/13/2013 12:42:50 AM)
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