A website that sells designer-only duds for kids whose no returns policy applies only to five areas that are home to thousands of Orthodox Jews has explained that its rules were enacted as a matter of business and not discrimination.
Shan and Toad, an online boutique selling exclusive fashions for babies, girls and boys, is based in California. Its website offers full returns on non-sale items except swimsuits, less a $5 restocking fee, on all pre-authorized returns that are sent back within seven days of receipt to all customers.
Except those living in Brooklyn, Monsey, Monroe, Lakewood and Passaic.
The return policy, which is clearly posted on the website, was born out of necessity explained its Orthodox Jewish owner Shana Laub according to Northwest Now.
“It has nothing to do with prejudice against race or religion because that is not the case,” said Mrs. Laub, the mother of three girls. “The only common thread between these areas would be a high volume of returns and an unwillingness to follow store policy.”
Shan and Toad, which has over 20,000 Instagram followers and describes itself as the “chicest childrenswear e-boutique,” noticed a pattern of customers in those five areas routinely placing large orders, often ordering a particular item in multiple sizes hoping to get the right fit for their child or children.
Those orders would deplete the store’s inventory, preventing other customers from placing orders, with items frequently returned days or even weeks later. In the interim Mrs. Laub was faced with the decision of ordering more merchandise at significant cost or being unable to fill customer orders.
In many instances clothing was returned to the site in poor condition after having been tried on and shipped back and forth. Mrs. Laub said that when she told customers that she couldn’t accept returns to lateness or damages, they threatened to dispute the credit card charges.
“The losses resulting from returns were becoming too great to sustain and we needed to implement a change,” said Mrs. Laub.
Shan and Toad made the changes to its return policy a year ago and since then returns from the five designated areas has dropped from 34 percent to 13.3 percent. Mrs. Laub said that outside of those five locations, the store, which ships its luxury fashions worldwide, has just a 2.8 percent return rate.
Tod Marks, a shopping expert and senior projects editor for Consumer Reports said that he has never encountered a return policy like the one at Shan and Toad, and he encouraged consumers to always familiarize themselves with any store’s return policy before making a purchase.
“You’ve got to read that fine print,” said Mark. “You have to be understanding of the kind of business that they do.”
Although New York State law, like many other states, does not require any stores to accept merchandise for returns, all stores in are legally required to post their refund policy. Stores that fail to do so are required to accept returns for 30 days from the date of purchase. New York State law does not distinguish between online and brick and mortar stores.
At least one Shan and Toad customer who asked to remain anonymous said that she had no problem with the store’s return policy, noting that Jewish owned clothing stores in Brooklyn rarely if ever offer cash returns.
“Every other store has only store credit so it is all the same to me,” said the Brooklyn mother of three.
“There are people who sometimes order thousands of dollars worth of clothing for all of their children and then return it all,” added another customer. “It’s just not fair to the stores.”
For this completely sensical policy. I own a luxury kids store myself and I CRINGE every time I see an order from your list. Because your return percentage was 35% from these areas….mine – mainly from about 5 zip codes in Brooklyn – and definitely from Lakewood – are 85%. Why would anyone need to order 15 dresses in EACH size to keep one – or return all 15 – at MY expense, with MY loss – and also with complaint of how come I would not send the return label?…..Why do people think that it is completely OK to… Read more »
Hopefully other stores in those areas will follow. Note that others do not return or makes exchanges with every purchase. This practice is not fair to the store or other customers. It is selfish and rude. You should have some idea on what you wish to purchase prior to getting at the checkout line.
Very interesting. In the return policy on the website there is no mention that they don ‘t take returns from these places.
They now refuse returns at the end of the summer when people return air conditioners they have used for 2 months
AS A BUSINESS OWNER IN JERUSALEM ,I AM SICK AND TIRED OF GETTING RETURNS AFTER THE SHOES ARE WORN I AM LOSING MONEY ALL THE TIME
STOP THIS PRACTICE OF RETURNING AND THEN BUYING ON THE INTERNET
@63 46 has serious issues but entitlement is not one of them. She is entitled to everything she claims she is entitled to as a bas Avrohom Yitzchok un Yaacov. And if she is not entitled by virtue of bas melech malkei homelochim, then neither are you entitled. She likely does work, and the majority of yidden who do work cannot afford the things that they are entitled to because their work does not provide sufficient economic value to be remunerated at that level. Your job does? Well great, but even if you’re job is a function of your brilliance… Read more »
Ok self hating jews let’s see how many other ways she could have solved the problem without becoming an antisemite and giving goyim smart ideas. I’ll start. 1 take a picture for your records, if it is worn or not in the condition it was sent in and they want to dispute it then just send the picture to the cc company. Customers usually loose cc disputes if your on top of just responding. 2 places like victoria secret have a max return policy so no more than 6 returns ever or something like that may discourage them without targeting… Read more »
I am truly blown away by the attitude of #46. I actually thought she was kidding because it is beyond me to believe that this girl/woman thinks that it’s OK to wear something and return it, “because she gets bored with it and won’t wear the same thing twice”. Oh, and likes expensive clothing that she can’t afford!!! Get a life lady!!! You think you are entitled to what you can’t afford. Get a job!!! Maybe someone should give you their big house because you want it and can’t afford it! Or their car, or any of their possessions!!!! You… Read more »
non of you would have heard of this retailer if not for the article.
I am so impressed. You did the right thing
It is below us as Jews, to think that we will be coming out ahead by using clothes and then returning.
we don’t get richer from it
and it is not al pi halacha
nobody wins. do it right
a valid kinyan is predicated on both parties knowing exactly what they’re getting (סמיכת דעת) and in the case of an internet purchase, particularly of clothing, the buyer can’t really know what he’s buying until he receives it.
that said, the behavior of (many) frum people with regards to returning merchandise is legendary and reprehensible. I can easily see this woman forced to close her business if she hadn’t taken this measure. whomever doesn’t wish to to business with her because of this – don’t. you don’t matter. go bother someone else. she’s better off not serving you
I think that the loss incurred when buying from a Jew is only up to 15%. For example, diapers on Kingston could cost 50 cents a diaper but at Costco they are 25 cents a diaper. (rough estimate). For some, it is more convenient to simply buy on Kingston but for others, the price difference is a big difference for them. Some things might not be available in shomer Shabbos stores such as secular books and unfortunately, in today’s world, not all women’s clothing sold in frum stores is truly tznius and women may have to shop elsewhere.
Thanks for quoting those sources; I stand corrected – there is room to argue that this is binding halachah. However, it is still true that there is no room to argue that geneivas daas is forbidden, and “buying” items in order to take advantage of the return policy is just that. (An article at the Business Halacha Institute, http://www.businesshalacha.com/en/newsletter/cool-return, points out another issue when you’re doing this with a Jewish store: it amounts to ribbis, since you will get back what you paid for the item – in effect, what you lent them – and meanwhile have the use of… Read more »
after all, she is trying to run a business, not a gemach
she can’t sustain all those losses, simple as that
Some stores have very liberal return policies and hope that people don’t take such blatant advantage. I would personally be embarrassed to buy shoes from Nordstroms, wear them for a year or two, and then try to return them because they wore out. We have all seen stores who changed their policies because people did take advantage but the problem for Jews is that #1) the intention that we will take advantage of the store is halachally problematic and #2) that we will be viewed negatively as Jews and #3) that some non-Jews will come to believe that the Torah… Read more »
From Business Halacha by Rabbi Meir Orlian: Question: Is there halachic basis to give priority to patronizing Jewish businesses? Answer: Toras Kohanim derives from the verse, “When you sell something to your fellow or buy from the hand of your fellow” (Vayikra 25:14), that one should give commercial priority to his Jewish brethren. This halacha is not mentioned in Shulchan Aruch, but is cited by numerous responsa. The poskim debate whether the law applies if the non-Jew sells for cheaper. Rama (Responsa #10) cites this law to give priority to an edition of the Rambam printed by Maharam Padua over… Read more »
#20 “LOL”? Not really. Rather SAD & shocking to another BT who comes from an impeccably honest family & neighborhood. Perhaps the way we were raised accounts for our spiritual sensibilities & success. I always credit my parents for representing the best in our being Jewish…Honest Mentchlikeit! 🙂 B”H now THAT is the way to raise children! Actually this business is doing us all a favor to curtail negative impulses & lifelong dangerous behaviors 🙂 It all starts with “small” yet not so small things such as this. I remember learning from Nechoma Greisman a”h that we even ask forgiveness… Read more »
I do. Donate to gemachs items that are too costly,hard to return or missed the date. Consider it tzedaka! Others can use happily that can’t afford new clothing!
You are the reason Shana Laub had to enforce this policy, on her website. You are a shallow showoff, let alone a thief! You should be ashamed of yourself.
I like wearing wearing expensive cloths, shoes, and handbags. However, it is all in how I budget. Almost everything I own was bought on sale, or in an outlet store. Oh, and the most scandalous thing…. I enjoy wearing my cloths for years!
It is indeed a very big deal, and every single word of your post marks you as a violator of halachah. You’re no more allowed to cheat a non-Jewish store than a Jewish one (and in a way it’s worse, because of the potential – and often actual – chillul Hashem involved).
It’s Elul. If you’ve been doing this for years, then now is the time to change! “Why should you not have stuff like everyone else?” Because there’s a G-d who runs the world and who decides who gets what, that’s why!
I know friends that do that and as a wife of a business man I totally understand
You are a thief , pure and simple, rationalizing your immoral behavior.
if you buy something and then get bored with it, you could resell it at a consignment shop and you could also save money on expensive stuff by buying on a consignment site or at a consignment shop. Stores are not cheating if they are selling to the customer at the current market rate for that particular type of item. Unless a store is selling counterfeit items, then they have not cheated anyone, even if their profits are huge. Many times what we pay for is the designer’s name and less pricey items would wear just as long or serve… Read more »
I’ve been doing this for years . I buy stuff wear them and then return . I get very bored of my clothes very quickly. I also like very expensive things and I don’t like being seen in the same thing twice. it’s not my fault I can’t afford to keep anything I buy. why should I not have stuff like everyone else? ! so I rerun stuff . if it looks good still I just reattach the labels .. if it looks too worn I rip or break something. and I blame the manufacturer. no I do not feel… Read more »
Small businesses buy in far smaller quantities so that if a consumer ties up the entire stock of an item by ordering it in multiple sizes and then returning it, the business has no stock to sell to legitimate customers. To comment #42, this matter should be discussed and this is a forum for discussion. We should use this discussion to look into ourselves and determine if we are guilty of this type of deception. To #40, I felt the same way when I saw that many of these items most likely were not tznius and were beyond the price… Read more »
There are two different kinds of returns: One is ordering in a few sizes to see which fits and then returning the rest. That’s totally normal for online purchases, where you can’t try it on. What in the world is the problem with that? If a business is online (and pays less overhead), that is 100% to be expected. Think zappos, Amazon etc. The other is wearing and returning. I’m confused–if it’s worn, it’s not accepted as return. How could anyone get around that policy? In general, I asked a Rav if it’s ok to buy, use and return–and he… Read more »
It’s disgusting she has to do that , but she has to. I’ll probably do the same. And very disgusting that a lot of frum Jews are selfish, giving a bad name, and chilul hashem. It’s the month of Elul it’s not good to speak bad about yidden, and hope they change to the better.
i disagree with every thing in every above comment because i know for a fact that you all should go and tell all this rudeness to yourselves for disagreeing with each other about some silly matter!!!
rabbi akivas students were punished for doing such an aveiro
and you all think you are on a higher level beruchnius than them!!! well, you arent! so be good meydelach and yingalach and be quiet.
one for one and most of the people who can afford these clothes , husbands work in Manhattan … so will continue returning!
I agree with the policy. It actually protects certain people from stealing.
But why would a frum mother buy such clothing. It’s not tznius, not only because of length of hems etc, but anything outlandish, that makes people turn to see it, is not tznius.
People, stop the genetics and dress like the bas melech you are.
I too am a frum J and never return something if worn or crumpled. I only return within 2 days of the purchase if item was tried on and fit was wrong .It is rude disgusting and shameful. These people should go to a store and try the item on and if the fit is right they should purchase if not then fine.
Please as frum L let’s all work on being more careful, respectful & make a Kiddush Hashem.
“Returns originating from the following areas will be eligible for store credit or exchange only. The merchandise must be sent back within 7 days of receipt. The $5 restocking fee will be deducted from the credit amount.”
Where in that policy do you see discrimination against honest frum Jews not intending to take advantage of people? I see it as a perfectly reasonable policy and a good way to keep the business afloat.
move to a zip code that’s not contaminated!
Where is this “halacha” of which you speak? As a matter of fact, there is a halachah (Choshen Mishpat 175:41) that implies the contrary: ordinarily one may not sell his real estate to a non-Jew where this will cause problems for the Jewish neighbors, but this is true only “when he would have been able to sell or rent it to a Jew for the same price as the non-Jew is offering; but he is not obligated to sell it to a Jew for less.” Presumably the same would apply to buying from a Jew at a higher price vs.… Read more »
Sadly, you are right on the mark!
When will Torah observant Jews understand that the way they behave is how the world behaves. Chillul Hashem hurst EVERYONE, including those who practice it.
I don’t blame them. If you don’t like the policy, don’t make the purchase.
Let small business owners have their livelihood!
If you are ok with this policy then don’t complain when BDS comes to you. A Jew is a Jew is a Jew
I am a frum lady and I dont do this stuff,, to all you high and mighty people that call yourselves frum and are understanding her, do you realize that she came and discriminated against you too??? THere are plenty of mentchlach frum companies that I can support, I will take my business elsewhere.
I have a cousin who owned a frum children’s clothing store. One day a woman asks if she can order an expensive dress in four different sizes for her four girls. She orders the dresses, the lady pays for them and picks them up. The day following the wedding the woman brings back four filthy dresses and says they just weren’t right for the wedding!!!! Do people not realize that this is pure and simple ganeva?? My cousin , a frum woman, ultimately closed her store because she could not stand working with frum people. Look at the day camps… Read more »
Returns originating from the following areas will be eligible for store credit or exchange only. The merchandise must be sent back within 7 days of receipt. The $5 restocking fee will be deducted from the credit amount.
All anash should be treated eaqul. It’s not fair that only shluchim can make returns and not us!
it’s called stealing, l can’t say they hear me,it’s tuff trying to teach them when they know they can get away with it, l’m thankful that people have caught on and say it’s not permitted by them, all the best
חילול השם.
The “frummest” of us all, regularly return heavily used/worn clothing to retailers with “unconditional return policies”, summer-ware (A/Cs, bikes, etc) goes back to Walmart/etc., at the end of the bungalow season, and the like…
Unfortunately, this is where culture and religion deviate from each other, and some make such a Chillul Hashem (buy/use/return), and give us Jews, especially Ultra/Orthodox, a bad name. Maybe the Rabbinate in all communities should emphasize basic human common decency, before teaching loftier lessons and chumras.
It is for this reason when “all the kids in my class are buying from GAP because they can return everything even after wearing it”, I forbade my kids from ever shopping there – because it’s theft no matter how you cut it, and i didn’t want them to go that route.
Just update your store policy. you can always make an exception for those who DONT live in brooklyn, etc. and no one will know 🙂
Totally and absolutely disgusting that frum Jews wear something then send it back. I see that claiming one’s tights are 100 denier is more important than basic moral right and wrong.
I send something back I bought on the internet if I try it on and the fit is wrong etc. I would never dream of wearing it out. This is a form of stealing.
What’s there to be surprised about this? Even if a non Jewish non religious business would do this (and they have), it would be completely understandable.
I have to say, it’s as big a shame on collive for the description and title as on the dishonest, selfish and inconsiderate people who made this policy change necessary
I’ve had such negative experiences doing business with Jews, especially frum Jews that I have to have iron clad contracts that I don’t impose on my more secular clients. I’ve been burned too many times and it hurts that when you get taken advantage of by your own people. This company has every right to defend itself. Just a thought yeshivas/schools should implant halachas of doing business. As a frum Jew it’s hard to say that I avoid doing any business or hiring frum Jews after years of being played. If I feel this way I wonder how non Jews… Read more »
I never heard about people buying clothes or products to wear/use one time until I became a religious Jew!
So many of my classmates would buy clothes for Shabbos hide the tag and return the next day. Now as an adult it’s the same thing but people buy household items for holidays or when guests come to town and return right after.
I guess I wasn’t the only one who noticed this!
In Los Angeles Persians are notorious for doing things like this (buy, wear for special occasion and return) and retailers have caught on. Why make a chilul hashem. Be honest in your business dealings and in the end it will pay off. What kind of example are you setting for your children? I never try to take advantage of a fellow yid. They need to make a parnassa too.
Calm down everyone. Put your effort instead in having an article posted on derech eretz and how to shop without making a chilul Hashem.
Why publish this article on this site? It happened a few weeks ago. When you abuse something you risk losing all advantages. Sad reality but truth.
The store is owned by frum Yidden and they stated if they allowed returns they would never have stock to sell to legitimate buyers. They are small and can’t risk that. Why make a fuss and try and have a frum yid lose parnossa?
Why make others suffer just because they live in the same area as selfish people? Living in Brooklyn isn’t what makes people abuse the system. Being dishonest is. Why not just fight the actual behaviors by making rules about how many items you are allowed to return? E.g. Free returns for an order up to $X, or for the first X amount of items, then after that a restocking fee applies? Then no one can order $1000 worth of merchandise and return it all for free, no matter where they live….and honest people who happen to live in Brooklyn or… Read more »
And don’t forget Land’s End that got tired of “lending” clothing to Williamsburg – that they used and returned according to the company policy but totally taking advantage of. So now, if you live in certain zip codes, i.e. Williamsburg, they do not accept returns either.
Owner is frum Jew
ppl work very hard to open a business in order to turn a profit, any business owner would do whatever they deem fit to protect themselves, there is no antisemitism here, when a few too many ppl abuse a system this is what happens, maybe we should think how a store owner feels when this happens to them, there is no reason in the world that a business would want to alienate their customers,
Why the outrage?? They are a small company and if returns from those areas are killing them then they need to do something about it to stay afloat. It is totally believable that returns from those areas are excessive. Sometimes we abuse a system and wonder why there is a backlash. The entire world is not ours to use and abuse. We need to be mentchlich. Good on them.
I completely understand. B”H with our seichel, Jewish people come up with all kinds of innovative ways to undermine the system to the business’ lose. Non-Jews are much easier and straightforward to do business. It’s sad really. Bez”H, Mashiach Now.
I totally agree. If we take advantage of others we end up hurting everyone.
Question for a Rav.
I for one will make sure my family does NOT shop there.
Al pi halacha we are supposed to even pay Higher prices at a Time, than go to a goy.
What does this say about this woman??
Selfish and Rude?
She is a business person trying to build a viable business. It is not anti-semitic, it is practical. Quite often returns are made for practically without acknowledging others are being hurt. It is beyond belief that many believe it is ok to purchase items, tie up inventory or use the items for a prolonged period of time and them get a refund because it falls within the return policy. It is theft, plain and simple.
NOT ANTI SEMITIC
ITS THE ONLY WAY SHE CAN CUT LOSSES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Can’t tell you how many frum Jews buy, use and return. They did this to themselves
They’d be sued out of business in under 5 minutes
Frum Jews are notorious for returning used items. There are Wal Marts upstate who wont accept returns anymore either. People have totally take advantage of businesses for years and are suddenly surprised when stores take action against loss.
btw shes a frum jew !
wonder why..jews make such chilul hashems in the return department
I would never buy there! I always buy online and yes occasionally items don’t fit or I don’t lIke the quality. Yes her return percentage has gone down but I’m sure her sales have gone down to… and they should.. very selfish and rude of her!