Oct 23, 2015
Time For Women's Beis Hashoeva?
Photo by Mendy Hechtman

From the COLlive inbox: Space, mechitza and security are needed to allow a Simchas Beis Hashoeva for women in Crown Heights.

By Miriam

Tishrei in Crown Heights is a whirlwind of spiritual energy, bustling crowds and late-nighters. Most notable, however, is Simchas Beis Hashoeva when live music plays until dawn, and the spirited dancers keep it real the whole night long.

There is however, one big eyesore. Why is half of the Lubavitch population standing by the sidelines, watching? And by that I mean, why are the women not dancing? Given the opportunity, I am sure that dozens of women, if not more would like to participate with a little more than balancing on crates on watching. Is it possible? Why shouldn't it be?

It's only a matter of finding space and setting up a mechitza. How about… on Montgomery Street, between Kingston and Albany, or Kingston and Brooklyn? The streets are blocked off anyway, and I'm sure that some clever minds can find a way to build a functional and convenient mechitza. (It is the season of temporary structures after all!) Some tarp and cable ties and half the work is done already. Throw in an extra speaker to carry the music to the women's dancing area and it's good to go.

So, why not?

Well, that's a tough question to answer. You see, in all the conversation that I've had with rabbonim and event organizers, it never really seemed to boil down to Halacha, although they would all like me to think that it did. Unfortunately, it sounded a lot more like, “we don't think it's a good idea… we're SURE it's not a good idea… it will never work anyway… hang on, are you modern Orthodox?”

No, it's not for lack of practical ideas. I presented a number of suggestions to arrange that we could have a male-proof mechitza, (short of armed guard at the entrance) and it really doesn't have to be an expensive endeavor. I did hear the word “pritzus” thrown around quite a bit, as though the concept of women dancing is pritzus, which it isn't, because women dance at weddings without calls of “pritzus!”

And while we're on the subject of pritzus anyway, the current arrangement is not exactly the height of tznius either. Numerous men and boys walk through (and even stand in!) the women's standing all night long. Kingston Pizza and Kol Tuv remain open to them even though the only way they can access it is through the women's section. Which begs the question, is women dancing really the problem?

But let's say it is. Or at least, let's say that there's a risk that it might be. Couldn't we at least test it once to see? You see, years and years ago, people didn't think that women should vote. Or participate in government. Or leave kitchens. But we've come a long way from that. We have a Rebbe who encourages women to be active and utilize their talents. We even have restaurants that cater food, so women can step out kitchens for a breather every now and then. Maybe we cab try it out for just one night? We set up the mechitza, we place the speaker, we stand the guard at the entrance, and we even put up signs to remind the women not to sing and cause men to be oiver on kol isha. Who knows? Maybe it will be amazing. Maybe it will be a positive experience for all.

Many may be concerned based on the known fact that in the times of the Beis Hamikdosh the women came merely to see and hear. That is true. But as the Rebbe said on the second night of Sukkos, 5748, “Even though in the times of the Beis Hamikdosh they came only “To see and to hear,” the simchas beis hashoeva of the Beis Hamikdosh was nullified after the churban. What remains is merely a commemoration. Hence, “Our degradation is our repair”, “A descent in order to ascend”, that also the women celebrate simchas beis hashoeva.” (See attachment for source) Clearly, seeing and hearing is no longer enough. Women also need to be celebrating. And yet, we continue to have throngs of women standing by the sidelines just watching and listening.

Fortunately, there is a precedent for women's dancing outdoors at a community event. For two years in a row, (not this past year, unfortunately), a mechitza for women's dancing was erected at the Lag B'omer bonfire. (If you're a man and you didn't notice it, then it worked! If you're a female and you didn't notice it, where were you!?!? The party happened without you!) The mechitza served its purpose well. Women got to dance, men didn't notice and all around it was a great arrangement.

Could it work at simchas beis hashoeva on a much larger scale? I think so. Here are my suggestions to provide tznius dancing for women, and overall heighten the tznius of simchas beis hashoeva.

- Mechitza can be erected on Montgomery, even halfway down the block if deemed necessary. Additional speakers should be set up close to the mechitza.

- A guard will stand at the entrance to the enclosure to ensure that it is truly women's only dancing.

- Security will stand at either side of the women's standing section to ensure that it is women's only.

Ideally, we will be celebrating the next simchas beis hashoeva in the third Beis Hamikdosh, which I'm sure will boast arrangements for women's dancing, but if not, I hope that the message I've presented here will bear fruit, and women will be able to truly participate in simchas beis hashoeva in Crown Heights.



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Opinions and Comments
1
a thought
a gute voch!
it could b a nice thing for doing 1-2 nights. but for me, to come all the way from israel, it gives me strength for the whole year to see the men dancing, especially when i watch the videos i did from those dancing. i think it even said in one of the midrashim, that one of the neviim got Ruach Hakodesh from simchat beit hashoeva.
so again, it can b nice and happy to dance for some hours but the man dancing r very special- time to ask all the brachoss!
(10/24/2015 3:31:28 PM)
2
Agree
I had the same thought not only about Simchas Beis Hashoeva, but also about Simchas Torah. The women can dance in the women's section without the Torah.

Not sure what the point is in just watching.
(10/24/2015 7:10:48 PM)
3
Your'e not the first one...Rebbe speaks about this in sicha!!
Rebbe explains why we need it. See the pamphlet "A Call To Action. I think the Rebbe said so in 5749. I can look it up if you want. Thanks for causing me to share! I have only sisters, so I was excited to see it.
A bochur. To find source you can email me, if COL will let...yekkeyaceon@gmail.com
(10/24/2015 7:15:51 PM)
4
I agree
I agree, though I think for many practical reasons it should be indoors.
(10/24/2015 7:22:26 PM)
5
yes yes!
It should be tried for one night. The women who have become cintent with this bc they are forced to dont know what theyre missing. We need to be part of enjoy the celebration as well. Men, how would you feel if you couldnt be part, just watch?
(10/24/2015 7:22:53 PM)
6
Women in the street
Don't sound to me too tznius for women to dance in st
(10/24/2015 7:23:20 PM)
7
this is how it was in the Beis Hamikdash
This is the way it was in the Beis Hamikdash!!!

no problem for women to rent a hall and have an evening of dance. that would be wonderful. The official Simchas Beis Hashoeiva is the exact way it was in the Beis Hamikdash
(10/24/2015 7:45:24 PM)
8
Learn rebbe sichos
Rebbe clearly says men dance woman watch and clap.... gives koach to men to dance.....
Also tahaluchos.... rebbe said ONLY MEN!!!

One of the inyanim that the besht instituted is that chassidim do lifnin meshuras hadin
(10/24/2015 7:49:25 PM)
9
ëì ëáåãä áú îìê ôðéîä
if there is a demand, woman can arrange an evening of dance. rent a large, beautiful hall and do it it a Tzinius way.
(10/24/2015 7:50:57 PM)
10
nobody seems too concerned
if a man walks/sees behind the mechitza at a wedding. it is not such a big deal, and would actually enhance tzniyus and remove a lot of the pritzus that now happens.
(10/24/2015 8:32:11 PM)
11
I Like it!!
The Rebbe held the women in very high regard!! We can permeate that simcha into our lives too! Please can we try it ?
(10/24/2015 8:33:02 PM)
12
Old news
No one ever said it was a problem just organise it and everyone should be fine. May I suggest that instead of in the street the women dance in a hall for example beis Rivkah lefferts. They can get a women to provide the music and make it a real feminine atmosphere. Sounds to complicated making it on the street.
(10/24/2015 8:34:11 PM)
13
it sounds weird
And what about people in Montgomery looking through their windows? looking at the women... it will have to be a very tall mechitza.
(10/24/2015 8:37:58 PM)
14
yes
women love to be happy during yom tov too.
(10/24/2015 8:41:44 PM)
15
I live on Montgomery
You are suggesting to have it in front of my house on Montgomery between Kingston and Albany or Brooklyn??!! Are you CRAZY?? My children need to get to sleep!! I need to get to sleep!!! Here is MY idea: Have it in front of YOUR house!!!
(10/24/2015 8:43:00 PM)
16
to agree
What is the point to dance by yourself? from time immemorial women stayed behing mechitz and watched men dancing on simchas torah,etc. NOBODY felt left out- it is only today that we were given this irrelevant feeling of inferiority if we werent copying the men EXACTLY! doing EXACTLY what theyre doing etc..why the need to copy???

I can see an evening event in Bais Rivka with dancing for women etc..but it MUST be in the street? who says? Enjoy your own power- stop looking to copy men to attain spiritual heights..
(10/24/2015 8:49:43 PM)
17
so corrupt!
why do we always think we need to do what the men are doing? Bothers you to watch? Stay home!
(10/24/2015 8:57:59 PM)
18
great idea
There was a womens only Simchas Beis this year on wednesday night of chol hamoed. Would be great to see it grow next year. It was organized by Aliya Girls
(10/24/2015 9:01:49 PM)
19
women dance!
The women should absolutely have the choice to dance in a proper Tznius location. I'd prefer near the music.
(10/24/2015 9:19:21 PM)
20
Very good idea
But... I feel that for some like myself and comment #1 simchas beis hashoiva iS what gives Me Chayus for the whole year
(10/24/2015 9:21:53 PM)
21
Seperate
There can be a seperate program special for women in Oheli Torah wedding hall
It's out of the way.
If it were to be done on Lubavitch yeshiva Crown ST, people will have an issue walking by and hearing women singing.....
(10/24/2015 9:23:35 PM)
22
In beis HaMikdash the women also watched
I also think that in a public open place, no matter what security you would use, it can result in more un-tznius. In Idea its good but in practice its complicated. but why not arrange at the nearby lubavitch yeshiva hall?
(10/24/2015 9:29:17 PM)
23
YES ITS ABOUT TIME
BH
BSD

my wife is a professional singer and teaches voice,..and I've been urging her to speak to a few important people about it
this year...and got stunned looks...
Let's get a large indoor halls,or even a few...only women allowed...with live female singers ..sooo many women have great HASHEM gifted voices ,and dancers...like at kreeyas YAM suf with Miriam..
ITS LONG OVERDUE...AND THE WOMEN AND GIRLS WOULD LOVE IT
(10/24/2015 9:31:40 PM)
24
What ever
You bringing a good point but for some reason
All the ppl who are fighting for women's rights are usealy the sameone who are trying to find all the loopyin halacha and mostly those people dont have yerias shamoim

You have to remember whats the role of a women and realize that tsniut its only in clothing but also and mostly in the behavior

FYI there's SB for women at ohaeli torah
Not all night but you should be happy already

Im sure if you go to satmar they will treat you better
(10/24/2015 9:38:50 PM)
25
You can't fool me......
I notice this article is authored "by Miriam" (no last name).
From the passionate complaint and heartfelt suggestion -
i.e. dancing for women at Simchas Beis HaShoeva - something tells me - darling Miriam HaNevia - you yourself submitted the article! -
I know dearest Miriam you have a thing with water and dancing (and yes - singing!) and moreover you've got sole holdings of "Desert Wells Unlimited"!
Did you really think I would not figure it all out even if you deliberately avoided mentioning the tamborines?!
Still you managed to hide it all real well with your familiarity and all that contemporary talk of Kingston Pizza, Montgomery Street, sound system etc.
You did kind of slip up with that bit about women voting and "coming out of the kitchens....." and your wide-eyed discovery - "We EVEN have restaurants that cater food..."
Miriam - those changes and conveniences happened ages ago!
Also you gave it away with the part about Kol Isha..
And why would anyone else be talking about this whole idea - way after Yomim Toivim and a full year away from the next Simchas Beis HaShoeva - Somethings up - RIGHT?
That whole part about how it will be in the Beis HaMikdash -
Miriam we know all these tricks from camp color-war breakouts - You're too cute!
But I must admit - You've come a long way lady - besides the fact that you were never one to stand, watch and listen from the sidelines...!
Let's hand it to her - tamborine roll please -

T.H. Israel
(10/24/2015 9:41:04 PM)
26
people living on montgomery st.
your mechitza will block them too?
com'on - be realistic
(10/24/2015 9:44:15 PM)
27
take it indoors
Expanding everything to Montgomery Street will just mean that not only will people on Kingston Avenue not be able to sleep including their babies stay up all night, but now Montgomery Street will suffer too.

Frankly I am shocked that this is still ongoing on Kingston Avenue. Where is the compassion for the many families who have to put up with something loud music all night long 4 days in a row?

The whole enterprise should be indoors. It's unfair to make so many families suffer, Jewish and non Jewish, think about it.
(10/24/2015 9:52:32 PM)
28
I agree
Rabbanim are supposed to make our lives more easy amd enjoyable while staying within the parameters of halacha. If we can dance at wedding we can dance on street in an ENCLOSED area. Unless there is a problem halachically or in the spirit of halacha this should be allowed
(10/24/2015 9:52:45 PM)
29
Finally!
Couldn't agree more, let's make it happen!
(10/24/2015 9:56:24 PM)
30
Nice idea but in a rented hall!
Im a woman and ive thought of this being in Bais Rivka lefferts, or Oholei Torah, with a women band, not on the street- too strange.
(10/24/2015 9:57:18 PM)
31
Additional opinion
I wish someone can arrange bleachers for the women. It would make it so much more comfortable, and less fights. I'm not sure who to speak to, but if anyone has connections, please try to arrange this for next year. Thank you!
(10/24/2015 10:02:07 PM)
32
Suggestion not exactly..
People live on Montgomery st. Including men and bochurim. Should they not be allowed to go home because women will be dancing in the street?

A better solution needs to be found. I think a hall with music especially for the women so they can dance freely is even better.
(10/24/2015 10:13:53 PM)
33
All the babies sleeping on Montgomery street
It's not fair to take away sleep from úðå÷åú ùì áú øáï sleep is a necessary , dancing can be held in pho lei Torah ball room
(10/24/2015 10:18:07 PM)
34
Disagree
It sounds nice and fun but i dont think it will for long. The current simchas beis hashoeva started with dancing and is now another place we need to avoid tuma, like in certain places where boys and girls are acting inappropiately. I believe it will soon be another place for girls to feel self-conscious, for the people to judge those less tznius than them and for shaming. If a girl wants to dance she can arrange a school or friends event in a shul or hall
(10/24/2015 10:18:39 PM)
35
Agree
Put the band between the two (Cwn Hghts would prob prefer them facing the men's section), but speakers in the Women's section also- not difficult to do, higher mechitza and that's the idea
(10/24/2015 10:32:39 PM)
36
Is this true?
I was told before gimmel Tammuz that the Rebbe wanted to women to dance and often women's areas were set up on rooftops of Kingston until the men discovered them and kicked them off.

I second that I don't feel comfortable going to Simchas Bais hashuava anymore due to the men in the women's section - no seating (some of us are getting old - have health problems- or are pregnant) and the cough! Cough! Smoking from men

Wouldn't setting up tents for women's dancing with bouncers to keep men out work?
(10/24/2015 10:34:17 PM)
37
MORE SPEAKERS??? HORRORS!!!!!
The volume as it is reaches to Albany and Brooklyn Aves! Please don't increase the suffering of those of us who provide the clean beds and fresh meals for all the guests! We need to get some rest so that when you get back from the dancing there's food for you, dear guests!
(10/24/2015 10:50:59 PM)
38
As it happens...
I've heard complaints from many, many women about this topic.
The music is fun and everyone wants to dance!
Dancing is a great expression of joy, and why shouldn't we be able to do it too?
Plus, there are some pretty great ideas wriiten above.
THANK YOU FOR WRITING THIS.
(10/24/2015 10:58:53 PM)
39
Cali Shaliach
I believe it was in California when the women wanted to have their own Hakofos in a separate room. If I recall correctly The Rebbe answered "This is how the conservative movement started".
(10/24/2015 11:05:40 PM)
40
to #3
please post sicha your referring to, and some points from the sicha
(10/24/2015 11:30:45 PM)
41
where is the preacticality??
so whats coming next year?
" op-ed. the music was to loud / the music was not good enough" !?
stop complaining and be happy with what you can get!!
(10/24/2015 11:43:25 PM)
42
who needs dancing?
as long as we have unlimited silly string?
(10/24/2015 11:44:23 PM)
43
From a different perspective
Ladies, let's start being proud to be women, instead of wanting to be like the men.
Women=modest, refined, nurturing, bringing happiness into the home and house, not needing to conquer the outdoors.
I'm all for women dancing, and expressing their joy, but let's do it in a womanly fashion -- in a refined, genteel, womanly way -- indoors, in a private setting. Why the necessity to be on the streets, like the men???
Just my thoughts ....
(10/25/2015 12:35:32 AM)
44
tent
I think if it would be done in a fully closed tent that would be perfectly tzneisdik
(10/25/2015 12:39:59 AM)
45
all this dancing in the street
I don't know why simchas b.h. has been going on this long on Montgomery Street, It is so hard to sleep and get up in the morning to go to work, it is not fair for people that are trying to sleep, and I don't know why they start with the music at 10pm and then when the music stops they have people dancing in the sidewalks till 7am, they should have it in a hall or come up with a better solution, and now you are talking about having women dancing in the street, its enough that a lot of people have to put up with the men dancing in the streets in a residential area
(10/25/2015 12:55:37 AM)
46
Suggestion
The premise is a correct one
Girls and women should also feel the joy of dancing
I recall that for many years BethRivkah High School organized dancing in the Lefferts building for girls one of the nights
Hundreds of girls would come and dance as a live band played
That kind of arrangement would be the best
(10/25/2015 1:03:33 AM)
47
to #36
Excellent, practical idea - but only for one night. A tent has to be put up properly - by the company rented from - and you can't close the street to traffic during the day. Your idea of a tent solves all the problems people brought up about men living on Montgomery and people watching from their windows. RE: the music - for one night, it should be manageable - up to a decent hour.
(10/25/2015 3:15:53 AM)
48
To all the people complain that the music is too loud
I'm shocked to see so many people suggesting that simchas beis should be done indoors and that there's no reason to still be doing it in the street. Umm, are you a lubavitcher chassid or not? Our Rebbe instituted simchas beis specifically to be done in the street. Not to mention that the music has gotten increasingly lower and unfortunately affected the quality of the dancing.
(10/25/2015 3:43:32 AM)
49
I hate change
And I can't stand women wanting to be like men! Us women belong at home , looking after our family , guests with our girls at our side ! Us 'girls' go to the SB for abit , watch , say hi to our friends then back to the kitchen , music , singing and dancing whilst we cook , bake and clean up in preparation for the next round of meals and guests. We love this and don't want it any other way!
(10/25/2015 3:46:08 AM)
50
Hmmmm....
As a visitor to Crown Heights most years for Sukkos, after having lived there for many years, the dancing at night is not what it was meant to be when it started nearly 35 years ago! There is no tznius in the last few years, the commercialization is at it's worst!!! It has become a money making deal! Kol Tuv, hot dogs, ice cream, pop corn, and all the light up toys!!! It feels as if the men are standing more on the women's side then they are in their areas and they have more room than the women!!! I wonder if that's why so few CH women come anymore!!! It has become a total lack of tznius!!! That is in not what the Rebbe wanted when this was started!!!!!!! And now you want to bring in a mechitza and dancing for the women???? The men will stand and watch the women!!!! I must disagree with a mechitza; a hall somewhere in CH open to all women and girls, - ABSOLUTELY!!!! I'm sure it would be greatly appreciated! But not just a ' mechitza' !
(10/25/2015 4:04:51 AM)
51
really simple
if the Rebbe said he was OK with it then don't worry about what others will say and just do it!
(10/25/2015 5:32:20 AM)
52
No pictures of women dancing on COL
indoor dancing sounds like a great idea, but please don't allow COL to post pictures online
(10/25/2015 7:05:29 AM)
53
Zalmy Schapiro
# 49 I understand your point but they can't be in the house all night and wait for the husband to come home from Simchas Bais Hashoeiva I do think that they should also have a women's program For Simchas Bais Hashoeiva they have their rights too have some fun I think we should do they should make a women's program from 6 p.m. till 9 p.m. or you could change schedules for example the music starts at 10 p.m. in Kingston Avenue Right women's program should start from 10 p.m. till 11:30 second one should be from 12 to 1:30 but what I'm trying to tell you the point that women have the rights to have some fun now for some families who have little children I understand that they need to be home so like I said they should have an early program for women and a later program it doesn't matter which location as long as it's indoors of course and I think it's a really great idea that they should have a program for women for Simchas Bais Hashoeiva # 36 46 and 47 and to all other comments I like your suggestion as well good job
(10/25/2015 7:42:13 AM)
54
DO IT RIGHT
LOVE THE IDEA OF THE LUBAVITCH YESHIVAH ON CROWN STREET
NOT FAR FROM KINGSTON AVENUE
CLOSED QUARTERS
ONE OR TWO NIGHTS OF THE TIME
(10/25/2015 7:47:34 AM)
55
It's a religious event
Simchas bais hashoeva is a religious event and should be treated as such.
(10/25/2015 8:29:59 AM)
56
Maybe I'm Missing Something here....
I love to sing and dance like the rest of the women, so that is not the issue for me. I just don't feel comfortable watching men, that I am not related to....dance. So yes, I do stay home!
(10/25/2015 10:20:48 AM)
57
19 year old
Who will be there to encourage the men to dance?
We need to remember what the womens role is.
Yes it would be nice, but it was never an Inyan for women to dance during Simchas Bais. Maybe one night a year bet 10 and 12 in a hall (separate for post sem and older women)
I personally wouldn't come because I love to watch the chassidim dancing with such simcha till the morning, rain or shine. It GIVES me energy!!
(10/25/2015 10:47:55 AM)
58
Welcome.
After giving this thought...

A Kaloh's hair may remain uncovered during her wedding.
A Torah Wedding is a Special time and with a Chosson and Kaloh where there is unusual protection...

Women usher in Geuloh by watching and clapping for Simchas Beis HaShoeivoh.
In Yerusholayim at the Beis HaMikdosh Most Righteous Torah Scholars dance and The Nation looks on and claps...

HKB"H; Most Righteous Torah Scholars: Masculinity; dance.
Kinesess Yisroel; The Nation: Femininity; watch and clap.

When masculine dance and feminine watch and clap Simchas Beis Hashoeivoh is embodied.

When the feminine seeks to embody the masculine place this signifies Kinesess Yisroel seeking to encroach on the place designated for Hakadosh Boruch Hu.
Certainly this shouldn't be done and the author doesn't want to do this.

{On another note: There is basis to suggest that feminine dancing expresses tones of intimacy and therefore is appropriate in settings fit for intimacy only. Some may understand why weddings, with a protecting Kaloh whose hair is exposed like a maiden celebrating kosher entry to intimacy]) can channel the intimate tones of feminine dancing in a positive way.}

Besuros Tovos.
(10/25/2015 11:34:22 AM)
59
Woman dancing in Reshus Harabim= Pritzus
Kol kvuda bas melech penima. In general a woman is suppose to avoid the streets and stay indoors. We see from our matriarch Sarah and all other righteous woman through out history. The idea of having woman dancing in the streets is Pritzus whether a man can see them or not. By a wedding it is indoors.
(10/25/2015 12:24:16 PM)
60
I'm the Beis hamikdosh they watched
The whole concept of simchas Beis hashoeiva is to portray the joy and event in the Beis hamikdash. Over there te woman watched, even tough there could have been a way to make them dance. So too today that's whatvis done
(10/25/2015 12:25:55 PM)
61
The problem is the crates!!!
Additionally we have to set up a system that crates can only be put at the end, not in front of the fences!!!! What these girls do is set up their crates right in front and block everyone!! A crate makes you much higher, so go to the back! We couldnt even see anything and they didnt even let us get through in front of them! And once I did but there was barely any room and I was so pushed and no air to breath while the girls on the crates on top of us and they couldnt move their crates a little far back so EVERYONE is able to see?!?!?
(10/25/2015 12:51:58 PM)
62
Spot on
This article is spot on. I agree with most commenters that the dancing should be indoors, but women should certainly dance and not stand and watch the men dance. Do you stand and watch other people dance at a wedding or a Bar Mitzvah?
(10/25/2015 12:54:54 PM)
63
Some People Make No Sense!
I see a bunch of comments that claim the woman's place is on the sideline, or in the kitchen cooking for the men.
This type of indoctrinated sexism and misogyny is pethatic to say the least. there is no precedent in Judaism for this attitude. this status quo comes from archaic times where the oppression of woman as a gender was rampant and regular ...as was slavery, discrimination etc. etc.
People. let's rise with the times. there is absolutely no Rabbi who can claim that basic civil rights for woman is against Judaism, as well as this notion of Woman subservience and secondary status in our homes and communities.
wake up people!
(10/25/2015 2:01:01 PM)
64
I agree
It's nice to watch the men dance, but as a lady, I'd LOVE to express myself too and dance and feel the unity and simcha
(10/25/2015 2:44:38 PM)
65
Hakhel Mega Event
The organizers of the Hakhel event were considering making a women's section for dancing, but the Rabbonim vetoed the idea.
(10/25/2015 4:08:45 PM)
66
Yep
I agree with 61. The crates are lined so high and if ur not 6feet tall its hard foryou to enjoy SIMCHAS Bais HASHOEVA
(10/25/2015 4:19:09 PM)
67
15 year old
I must say that this does bring about a good point but something about it just doesn't seem right...It was never one of the Rebbes inyanim for the women to dance as well and in the Torah it states very clearly that men and women are different and they both play different roles in life. It would defiantly be nice maybe to have a program in a certain dance hall or even at someones house but for sure not on the streets and in general women dancing out in the open isn't very aidle!
(10/25/2015 4:41:22 PM)
68
Very ambivalent
I have very mixed feelings about this. I'm a woman who enjoys watching the men. I already did the imitative thing long ago; sorry, but I outgrew it. The male role is to be mashpiah; the female to be mekabel.

Nevertheless, I understand some women wanting their own celebration. Maybe a private gathering, as suggested above -- in someone's home or rented hall, with a female band or singer. And for a limited time -- 2 hrs., perhaps. I might go. Or I might not. At least women have some options.

Personally, I find the men's music dull & monotonous, which is why I don't really care if women do the same. It has no attraction to me. In fact, the music gets so boring or sterile that I have to run home & put on different music. It's not the street music that moves me, rather the spiritual vibes & the feeling of achdus, when the whole community shows up, even to schmooze or hang out.

Also, I acknowledge the male ego, and its need for approval. If we ladies are encouraging the men to be frum by watching them dance, kol kakovod. Maybe it makes them feel more masculine.
(10/25/2015 6:36:23 PM)
69
All boils down to Mashpia and Mekabel...
I'm a women too like above poster who gains such a chayus from watching. I think that is feminine. Dancing doesn't do it for me. (by a wedding it does somehow. Somehow it's another accomplishment where you are dancing to bring joy to the Kallah). Simchas beis Hashoeiva, Simchas Torah we all celebrate. The men celebrate in an outward expressive way and the women are being Mekabel the atmosphere and celebrating in a huge way but internally, in a pnimiusdike way. I wouldn't be inspired dancing with a bunch of women somehow when the purpose isn't to be mesameach anyone but just ourselves, which personally I find is accomplished through watching and internalizing the simcha. I will hopefully afterwards radiate that Simcha to my family and surroundings.
I'm proud to be a Mekabel!
(10/25/2015 8:21:10 PM)
70
Bas Melech
The Rebbe wanted the MEN to dance in the streets. That's a man's role - to conquer the word.

Our Rebbe always encouraged the women and girls to participate - off to one side - by clapping. Not dancing, Not singing. Not saying Kiddush Levana. At kids rallies, even when little girls came to farbregen and wanted to sing with Tatty, the Rebbe send messages to them to clap.

The young ladies in Biblical times only danced in public on Tu b'Av and Yom Kippur - as these are days when we are free of sin and therefore there was no thought of unseemly conduct. Unfortunately that's not the case now where pritzus is all around, especially at Simchas Beis HaShoeva.

The women were the ones who insisted on balconies in the Beis Hamikdash (only) for simchas beis hashoeva, specifically because the men were in a jolly mood and were not careful enough about keeping their eyes off the women.

I'm all for women singing and dancing - in Oholie Torah, Beis Rivka, the Museum or another private place. But not all night - because the Rebbe says the women and girls are the akeres habayis and we have the holy responsibility of nurturing our babies and families (and if we are pre-motherhood, then we have to help our mothers and sisters and neighbors) and exhausted women are not the best nurturers.

The East side of Kingston should be totally off limits to males over age 9. The Pizza store can put up an outdoor stand in the men's section, just like the fleishig stores have stands. And there is already ice cream and sushi on both side of the street.

I'm proud to be a woman who knows that Kol kvuda bas melech penima, and I'm happy to watch and clap.
(10/26/2015 12:45:05 AM)
71
A human
A great deal too many of you apparently didn't read the article in its entirety. It explicitly deals with the "but-in-the-times-of-the-Bais-Hamikdosh" argument.
And for those of you saying "fine, dance. But do it somewhere else" that's not really in the spirit of achdus. If it doesn't transgress any halacha, then your opposition to it is a personal one. The community Simchas beis hashoeiva should include ALL members of the community, including the female ones.
(10/26/2015 1:52:01 AM)
72
great idea
Thank you!! Finally, I would love to have the opportunity to dance
(10/26/2015 12:59:55 PM)
73
Shocked!
I'm SHOCKED TO SAY THE LEAST!
The Rebbe was an Ish Halacha and was so makpid that we shouldn't trangress hilchos tznius that he cancelled various programs* so that it shouldn't come to mingling or kol b'isha.
How can we misconstrue the Rebbe's holy projects and make it fit the 2015 morals?
If the Rebbe would have felt it appropriate He would have instituted it.
Women want to dance? Fine. But everything has its time and PLACE.
*Learn the Rebbe's Sichos and Igros. Find out about schools & shluchim who needed to change their plans or eliminate them totally; all in the name of transgressing halacha.
Just be honest with yourself! Are you a chossid and a Yiras Shomayim = a Chassidishe Yid, or not?
Tznius brings brucha. Tznius keeps the Shchinah within our midst and the Rebbe quotes the Holy Zohar: " We are zocheh to Brochos from above and brochos from below, bonei, chaay umezonah" Who is ready to forfeit that?
“A woman’s tznius is the assured path for health, parnossa and much nachas”

“It was explained in many places in the Talmud and the Zohar, that strengthening a woman’s tznius is the assured path for health, parnossa and much nachas; true nachas from children and grandchildren. This is dependent on each of you, to accomplish in herself and to be concerned for your friends, and that also relatives and acquaintances should be informed of the great potential that they have and the success attributed to that.” (Igros Kodesh vol. 8 page 203).

Excerpt of the Rebbe’s talk to Kinus Nshei Ubnos Chabad, Iyar 28, 5730 (1970):
“.. And it should be as we have just read (in the Parsha), “You will live safely in your land” (plus every Jew where ever they find themselves) in a manner of “You will sleep without fear”, there will be no need for a watchman. . .because the Almighty watches, about whom it is said, “The guardian of Israel neither slumbers nor sleeps”.
For the this (above protection) we also need to observe tznius (modest dress), as the verse states “Since G-d, your G-d is accompanying your camp” (because) “he does not see any immorality in you”; when the Almighty sees that by the Jewish nation, wherever they are, there is no lack of tznius - then the Almighty is between them to “save you and to place your enemies before you”, that the Jewish needs to do nothing on its own, because the Almighty saves them, and with his own energy “Places your enemies before you”, that they are all destroyed, and fall before the Jews.
To the extent that “His enemies (of the Jewish nation) make peace with him”, and “I will grant peace in the land”, that the enemies are converted and become those who make peace and beg for peace with the Jews. . .”
Likutei Sichos vol. 8 page 226-227

Upon your inquiry as to which mitzvah merits an extraordinary segulah – it is unquestionable that Taharas Hamishpacha and Tznius (head coverings and apparel etc.) merit great reward.
Rebbe Igros. 9512. 27 Sivan 5728.

(10/26/2015 2:30:48 PM)
74
in answer to 73
Your points are all true. We must be talking about different things though. Nobody is saying that we should have mixed dancing or kol isha. You are mistaken in thinking that dancing for women will inevitably lead to being oiver on clear halacha. The article clearly specifies taking steps to ensure that it is done in the most tznius manner.
In fact, even the rabbonim can't claim that it transgressed halacha. The issue is all about perceived problems and antiquated notions about how women should behave.
(10/26/2015 6:14:41 PM)
75
Women's events
I think it’s a great idea for there to be a separate space for women’s dancing for Simchas Beis Hashoeva in an indoor location. This can be offered in addition to the space on Kingston Ave so women can have a choice of where to attend. I think we should be encouraging events where women can express themselves in the performance of Mitzvos besides watching the men. There is no reason why this cannot be achieved with the highest standard of Tznius without compromising any Halacha or community practice.


I also think the separate women's events should be hosted and run exclusively by women (and I am speaking as a married male here). We had a women's Challah baking event in our community last week, and I was disturbed to find out that one of the local Rabbis addressed the 2000+ female crowd at a program which featured women singing and dancing. I do not wish to judge the Rabbi, I am certain he did not view that portion of the program, but seriously, were there no Rebbetzins in the crowd who could give a speech? Why do we always feel the need for Rabbonim to take centre stage at women's events? Imagine if a Rebbitzen spoke at a men's event, that would never fly! I just think that women should run their own events (unless it is a Rabbi giving a shiur or something like that) and men should stick to theirs. We certainly don't need any more double standards in the frum community.
(10/26/2015 6:43:40 PM)
76
¿"improve"?
May we choose to focus and concentrate only on important and meaningfull moments on our day (including Iom Tov)
(10/29/2015 12:15:21 PM)
77
You Underestimate
...the power of tradition! Start making this demand and you will end up with a weakening of the family. Yes, many of us enjoy watching the men dance...ESPECIALLY if you are married and see your family there! But something tells me this Miriam is dragging her feet about marriage...so are the young men...Yes, we should have an event for women, one night, in a building, but to paint it ina polarizing way is STUPID.
(3/4/2016 8:31:06 AM)
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