Jul 16, 2015
'Tznius Police' Caught Up With Me

From the COLlive inbox: I went to my friend's engagement party with happy feelings and then someone made me cry.

By Sheina

Before leaving my apartment in Crown Heights, I nervously turned to my friend and asked if what I was wearing was okay for the scene. Our childhood friend got engaged and we couldn't be happier.

My roommate looked at my loose-fitting black dress and said I had nothing to worry about. I had heard stories of the "tznius police," people saying crass comments and giving a piece of their mind to anyone they deemed immodest.

I always try to be respectful, and as I walked in with my thought-out outfit, I wasn't worried about "judgey" stares or comments. Honestly, all I was thinking about was how happy I was to be there for my friend's Mazal Tov.

After the hugs and the greetings and the pictures, I sidled up to the food and started scooping sesame chicken on my plate. I felt a tap on my arm and turned to see a lady standing next to me. Thinking she wanted sesame chicken, I said "mazal tov" with a smile and started moving out of the way.

She then grabbed my arm.

"You're not tznius," she said.

I continued smiling. "Thank you for letting me know. That's my business."

I thought that was the end of it and tried to turn away. She kept holding my arm.

"Hashem doesn't like you," she said quietly. "He's going to punish you for what you are."

I was shocked.

Anyone who knows me would describe me as someone who is outspoken and doesn't shy away from confrontation in the slightest. I'm not someone that can get silently bullied. I think this was the first time in my life that I was speechless. I was so deeply hurt by what she said that I honestly just started crying in the middle of the hall. My friends rushed over and helped me pull it together.

I tried to put it out of my mind for the rest of the night. I suddenly understood the rage that I think a lot of people of my generation feel.

Yes, I would be classified as "modern" by some, but it never stemmed from a place of negativity, anger, or rejection. It's simply the way I live my life. It's the point from which I am serving G-d. Through positive religious experiences, I've become open to making religious choices that I never thought I would have been open to.

I understand that one woman's opinion of where I am in my spiritual journey is irrelevant. But, if one comment could spin me into this black hole of negative thoughts, what is it doing to the people who endure this negative energy throughout their life and education? I can only imagine the bitterness people feel toward our religion that has so much power to enrich our lives with goodness and positivity.

I hear so much talk about what's wrong with this generation; that the world has crept in and infiltrated the frum community. This may very well be true, but instead of focusing on what's "wrong" with this generation, I think we all need to examine our approach and ourselves.

Yes, change is scary. Things aren't the way they used to be, and I get that it's scary. But I guarantee that hateful words and intolerance will not be the catalyst to incite the change you wish for. It will drive the younger generation away, sustaining this vicious cycle of anger and bitterness on both sides.



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Opinions and Comments
1
Sounds deranged
If Hashem didn't like you, he would not care whether you are appropriately attired or not.
(7/16/2015 9:41:06 PM)
2
Wow. That's terrible.
Not condoning the untznius fashion out there, but really, this comment wasn't along the lines of the Rebbe's approach at all.
Before people rebuke others, please learn the halachos of "hochayach tochiach" and go from there.
(7/16/2015 9:42:44 PM)
3
Sorry but...
Sorry your feelings were hurt, but you are making drama. There isn't a coordinated tznius police. And if events took place exactly as you described, your tears should have been shed for the mentally off woman, as a sane woman wouldn't behave like her. Not that she was wrong to feel that CH tznius standards should be high, it should be, but the way she conveyed it was off the wall, obviously.
(7/16/2015 9:47:26 PM)
4
Instead of wondering what's wrong with THIS genaration
Pity what is so wrong with some of the old generation
The lost generation is clearly the old and those unable to accept some new ideas and suffer from intolerance
Thank you for shining the light on a very sad subject
(7/16/2015 9:48:16 PM)
5
Amen!
Good for you! Thank you for speaking up about this very important issue. The rebbe would be proud I think, for he welcomed anyone no matter where they were from or how they looked!
(7/16/2015 9:48:43 PM)
6
Meir
BS"D
not condoning a non proper dress style but unfortunately you are correct in how the wrong approach can only further marochek people
further unfortunate is the women who scolded you has worse issues than you and is a very unhappy person so just have Rochmonis for her and
Hatzhlacha Raba and may the next Vort you attend be your own
(7/16/2015 9:49:26 PM)
7
wow
seems like someone finally put it into words. You can HELP a person change, not push them rudely with inciteful comments. It only gets them AWAY from yidishkeit. Was great point brought in thank u.
(7/16/2015 10:06:09 PM)
8
OK time out
I DO NOT AGREE with the author when coming to a frum event and dressings untznius is not just her business, its like coming to a black tie event in shorts and saying thats my business. however, if I were her I'd punch this wako square in the mouth. That is the MOST horrible thing to say. I hope she asks michilah before yom Kippur.
(7/16/2015 10:06:17 PM)
9
you are so right
If anything it will only cause more resistence and further resentment.It is not up to people to act like police but rather to accept all people for who they are with love.No you cannot force people to live up to your standards.You can be an example but this will never make someone adhere to someones' idea of what is tznius.
(7/16/2015 10:11:06 PM)
10
Oy
When the messenger is not kind it makes it very difficult to separate the message from the messenger.

When the Yidden would complain to Moshe Rabbeinu it says he would fall on his face. He would think what element of what they are saying is true.


If your outfit was according to Halacha you have nothing to be concerned about.

If there is room to improve, then there is room to improve.


Sorry you had to have such a painful experience of being grabbed and yelled at.

Interestingly enough,

This weeks parsha contains the opening words to the very famous ma'amar heichaltzu, which is all about ahavas yisrael.

In an introduction ( someone please correct me if I'm wrong) it says that the Rebbe Rashab speaks of the danger pious people lacking ahavas yisrael pose to yiddishkeit. They posed a greater danger to yiddishkeit than the haskala movement.

its sad to me that something so precious and beautiful and holy as the mitzvah of tznius is getting schlepped into a scenario like this.

if her words were from the heart they would be well received. That you are upset by them is a sign ( ?)that they weren't 100% coming from a place of love. ( in addition to the fact that the words themselves didn't sound very loving )

How sad it is that this woman doesn't realize how uninspiring and painful her words and actions were.

Thank G-d you have good friends who can be of support.

And if there is something you feel you could or want to improve in tznius, or in teaching others about tznius, don't let her insensitivity stop you.

Sorry you had to have such a jarring and traumatic experience.
(7/16/2015 10:11:46 PM)
11
Whoever that woman is...
who gave her the authority to go around giving such comments???? This is not the Rebbe's way!!!!
This definitely does not come from Ahavas Yisroel!
She should be dismissed just like anyone else who would say something inappropriate.
Tznius is a beautiful part of Torah. Klolos are NOT!!!
Take your inspiration from the right people that represent the real Derech HaTorah!
Hatzlocho! May you have a beautiful happy life in every way!
(7/16/2015 10:11:46 PM)
12
Back to basics for the self appointed 'messanger of G-d'!
Its amazing, if you open a chumash you will see no mention of neck-lines and elbow covering requirements.
You will see 'love your neighbor as yourself'!

I say to this self appointed false messenger of God: 'check out your own soul for 120 years before chastising another's form of dress'!

And from the point of view of psychology I think we all understand 'hashem doesnt like you' is code word for: 'I have a terrible self-esteem and body image, and I am envious of someone who feels comfortable to dress as they feel fit'!!!

Good on you Sheina for being brave and being 'you'!
(7/16/2015 10:22:34 PM)
13
BH
When you have sprouted a pair of angel wings and you have absolutely nothing whatsoever wrong with you, than and only than should you attempt to talk to another individual about their flaws. With the whole world targeting our People with such blatant hate, we need to band together and truly love one another. A Yid is a Yid no matter how he or she conduct their lives. Besides you catch more bees with honey than vinegar.
(7/16/2015 10:23:06 PM)
14
Scary!
If indeed events were as described in the article, I'm shaking with fear. Are we some kind of deranged Christian fanaticalcult talking words like "G-d doesn't love you"?!? What kind of speech is this for a Frum Yid. Perhaps it wasn't as Tznius a dress as one would like; no problem - do not allow your son to go out with her... But what ever happened with the prohibition of not shaming a Yid?!
(7/16/2015 10:25:11 PM)
15
Just my thoughts
Boy the word she used are sharp!
I wouldn't have chosen them myself even though i am disgusted at the pathetic situation in our community. It has reached the level of major embarrassment.

However sometimes ppl who feel threatened often don't know how to react responsibly. Frankly i think for the few ppl who are still left with a bit of integrity the rest of the majority who stand out (it just takes one provocative woman to turn heads and stand out) have just taken over the block.
And it feels very scary, because even our young daughters in the best mosdos have come to believe that tznius is nerdy.
What have we come to???
i will say it very boldly
All who dress untzniusdik and think they are just minding their own business couldn't be further from the truth. !!
EVERYTHING ppl do in public positive or negative has an impact on everyone else around.
Stop fooling yourselves into thinking tznius is my private little struggle.
What about all the young and yet even younger impressionable girls who want to look good too. You are the role models. Too many who dress this way sets the standard for a new norm.
The tznius struggle has completely lost for the moment, so i can understand the rage even if it is seems wrong.
You collectively have run down the standards of our our community and have stole the souls of our youth and all the while completely oblivious to the damage and under the cloak of the innocent "its my business"
Maybe what you do in private is your business, but not so what is done in public, its about time you recognize the scope of damage this unzniusdik behavior has caused!
And only then can you truly be respectful
(7/16/2015 10:27:16 PM)
16
Tznius and what it truelly means
I am shocked at what happened and I am a very tznius girl.
A. tznius is not only in your clothing but rather in your thought speech and action too. true it is important to dress modestly for self dignity and self respect purposes(asida from halachah of course) but screaming,embarrasing and physically catching someones hand is all the more not tznius not only that but it is counterproductive since even if someone needs to work on the way they dress public embarrassment not only will not achieve that but quite the opposite will cause resentment.
B. It is strongly prohibited to publically offend and embarrass another Jew which is not less important than tznius it is said one should through himself into fire ad not humiliate one publically.
C. sorry you had to go through this in the name of all tznius girl and women we are sorry for your humiliation and I would like to suggest to the community to provide girls with new good quality beautiful fashionable good looking tznius clothing and possibly a reward system where you earn rewards for being tznius this will create a good positive experience. also a inspirational positive shiur weekly about subject would be a good idea!!!!!
Hatzlachaand may w all come to YOUR lechaim soon!!!
(7/16/2015 10:28:07 PM)
17
Just dress tznius!
Dress the way you're supposed to and move on in life left this event be a stepping stone to do the right thing instead of making a whole scene
(7/16/2015 10:29:34 PM)
18
Question
Is the experience described in this article typical? In ohter words, how accuarate is it in represneting reality?
(7/16/2015 10:31:19 PM)
19
Keeping the positivity
Beautifully written and so respectful! It's great to see how even though you were so hurt by another lady's comment, you didn't put her down in the article. The more positivity and light in this world - the better!!
(7/16/2015 10:32:46 PM)
20
#4 and #5
Accept some new ideas?!! Our Holy Torah does not change with the generations. Tznius has been there since our
Matriarch Sarah, its the merit in which we were redeemed
from Mitzrayim , and it is in the merit of Tznius that we will
greet Moshiach speedily in our days. The Rebbe would be proud when instead being hurt you will dress more modest
in the future and influence you friends. Tznius is not about
criticizing or hurting feelings. Tznius is about being proud of who you are - a daughter of Hashem and the world respects you much more when you dress according to the will of Hashem. That's a MATTER OF FACT.



(7/16/2015 10:37:23 PM)
21
Opinion
That woman is clearly off.
If you were tzniusdik then you have nothing to apologize for.
However, to those who are not tzniusdik , it is actually not your business. You are walking in public showing parts of your body that the Torah says should be covered. You willingly exposing people to these body parts. To that I will say that at best you are clueless and shallow. Alternately, I would say you are selfish and immoral.
It's a free country. You can do what you please. But understand what you are doing.
Don't give people tests they don't ask for.
And don't say don't look"
That's like yelling FIRE in a theater and tell people not to llisten.
(7/16/2015 10:38:42 PM)
22
ach!!
I dont believe this story. I think this author is just sending a warning out there or the author is trying to play victim! I don't think any of our tsnius women speak like this unless there is more to the story ... ..
(7/16/2015 10:39:00 PM)
23
Amen sister!!
Thank you so much for your thoughtful post. I have been waiting for the day that Chabad treats its own with as much understanding and love as they treat those who aren't religious. I hope people read and take to heart. You're spreading an important message!
(7/16/2015 10:44:01 PM)
24
Don't make excuses
To do the wrong thing. If you want to dress untznius and by that I mean not following the clearly stated halachos then that is your problem.
But don't go using some crazy person's rude remarks to make excuses.
Two wrongs do not make a right.
Good luck
(7/16/2015 10:45:35 PM)
25
One Second...
She's so worried about Tznius?
How about Ahavas Yisroel?!
(7/16/2015 10:46:04 PM)
26
Moishe
instead of starting to cry she should have asked the
Women what about her wasent tznius and after she
Heard the answer she could have then decided
If the women had a point even though she does not agre
(7/16/2015 10:47:34 PM)
27
Puhleez
There are rules. Someone called Hashem made them. Yeah, they can be pretty hard to follow sometimes. You don't wanna follow them? Your business - but be a woman and cop the backlash. Don't come whining for support.
(7/16/2015 10:54:53 PM)
28
Ship this crazy woman and 10 more to California
Sorry for your feeling not appropriate but here in California we need posters and deranged people to persuade all this women that ignore any teaching out of love in this serious matter.
Promiscuity, vulgarity and lack of tznius are not compatible with aspirations to serve Hashem.
We cant offend anyone but also the women are not entitle to dress under the halacha code not Taliban or fanatics just literally down the knee, cover elbow etc...
because this brings parnosso issues, shalom bayis issues and prolongs exile
(7/16/2015 10:55:27 PM)
29
Bizarre
The whole story is odd: no woman at an engagement party is going tell someone "Hashem doesn't like you...He's going to punish you for what you are." It's ludicrous. And for the record, you can't say about tznius that "it's my business."
(7/16/2015 11:04:15 PM)
30
tznius
while I know that keeping tznius helps protect soldiers in israel and all over the world and I try my best. I would have said to that lady "excuse me! the way you are talking is totally not tznius and Hashem does not like your actions now
(7/16/2015 11:14:58 PM)
31
I think it's great
No matter which side of the issue you are on, isn't it wonderful that we can have an open discussion about this?
(7/16/2015 11:18:18 PM)
32
Crown heights resident
How dare everyone justify a girl dressing not tzniusdil. Yes, the person talking to her should have been more sensitive but I guess she was so disgusted with a girl coming to a simcha dressed not tzniusdik that she just said what she did. Please dress like a Jewish girl and not like a shikse and you will not be embarrassed. If you must dress like that, please leave our neighborhood and move back where you came from.
(7/16/2015 11:24:36 PM)
33
C. B.
Tznius is not about cover this and cover that or you're gonna get gehenim. It's about revealing the neshama/G-dliness...... Let's remember that. Also, everyone has his/her own struggles, and while I'm not perfect, and my kids will attest to that, it's not a good idea to judge eachother!!!
(7/16/2015 11:28:12 PM)
34
Unfortunately, I do believe this
I have witnessed other similar encounters. It's certainly not common, but happens enough that yes, this article is believable.
(7/16/2015 11:30:08 PM)
35
comment 10
You could not have summed it up better.
(7/16/2015 11:33:41 PM)
36
The title CONRTADICTS the article. its sad...
While there's nobody in their right mind who'd justify the absurd behavior of that particular woman,i.e. attacking & bullying another individual covering with a holy agenda..
Likewise it's very wrong to attack the tznius awareness (the title: 'Tznius Police' ) & covering with an outrage of lack of humanity.
Tznius is a precious gem that was given, as a keilee to all the Blessings that Hashem has, to give! its a pity that
(7/16/2015 11:33:47 PM)
37
"Simply the way I live my life"
What if you want to eat treif, or keep shabbos but only drive a car shabbas. Does that make it right? You are wrong. I don't believe that anyone said these words to you. She most likely said dress like a frum person and Hashem will like that. You are Not a victim you are the source of much of the deteriation of our young generation. Bravo to any adult woman who has the guts to say it like it is.
(7/16/2015 11:35:44 PM)
38
I hear!!!
I heard the Iranian government is looking to hire that lady as a revolutionary guard to keep the U.S. culture out of Iran, now that the sanctions are being lifted.
(7/16/2015 11:46:11 PM)
39
A different look at tznius
Totally wrong of the tznius police. But i just realized for myself at the age of 50, the way to explain tznius. A woman's body is very powerful. This power is supposed to be used for good holy things, in the proper way and the proper time. By reserving the power for the appropriate time and place, we use this power properly. When the power is used in not the proper time and place, then it misused, wasted, and can have bad results. So tznius isn't that we are ashamed or hiding our beauty, it's preserving it for the appropriate situation. When it is preserved, it is more valuable. Hope this helps someone.
(7/16/2015 11:52:53 PM)
40
Finally!
Fantastic piece!! Finally, someone talking about the real issue at hand..
(7/16/2015 11:57:28 PM)
41
Keep an outfit for these types of events.
Why not go the extra mile and be respectful of the community you're in and just dress according to the way of land, in this case crown heights? It's the mature and right thing to do regardless of your choices. Her comment is nuts. But doing the right thing will take you far wherever life may lead you.
(7/17/2015 12:00:27 AM)
42
breathe
this woman was obviously not ok and said something crazy. the words are hurtful but lets realize shes coming from a misguided place or has issues- lets not take so personally and start branding age groups or diff types of people as problematic- this woman does not reflect too many ppl with this mindset
lets all be stronger in our values and not get so thrown off by what the person near us says or thinks- unless of course it will help us grow (not in this case...)
(7/17/2015 12:02:13 AM)
43
Here we go again
You can be fully covered up yet not be tzanua. I am sickened by the women in Crown Heights that sashay down Kingston in these super-tight tube skirts (above the knee) tops that are flamboyant and either very tight or so loose the necklines are down low. Sleeves? Hose? What are they? Standards have dropped so much that women don't realize how they look. I would guess Sheina's friend dresses in the same way so she wouldn't see anything wrong.

As for this nutcase- as others said, she is clearly crazy. I am mentally doing a roll call & I can just imagine which of our outspoken (i.e. rude) women would say such a thing. This is not to blame you for your reaction, but when you answered her you made her livid. You were supposed to say "I didn't realize, let me go get my burqa."

Perhaps you should have looked around with an honest eye at the other women & girls to see who looks tzanua and stylish, who looks frumpy and who looks like a showgirl. It may be hard to find someone in the first category, but they are there. I know, I gave birth to some of them.
(7/17/2015 12:06:46 AM)
44
seriously?
seriously? an off-the-wall woman comes up to you at a lechaim and you generalize this into a whole philosophical thing? if she were a health nut and did the same drama thing about eating the pastries, would you write a whole article about it? The question we want to ask ourselves is- DOES OUR TZNIUS STANDARD AFFECT OTHER PEOPLE? Or the world? Or G-d? Or past, present, and future? If no, then we can do what suits us- it's our private decision; if yes, then that is a huge responsibility. That's the question that I would like to spend some quiet time researching, regardless of what everyone around me says. Probably some deeper parts of Torah might shed some light on the question. What does Torah say about it? Dunno... results are unpredictable. But I bet it will be fascinating to find out. Do I think G-d will give me enough freedom to research it with a truly open mind, without pressure? Yes, I believe so. Anyone interested in joining my research project?
(7/17/2015 12:09:42 AM)
45
The truth about Tznius
It's not an option, it's an obligation
(7/17/2015 12:13:59 AM)
46
Innerperspective
Dear Ms. Offended and whoever else needs to accepted for who they are,
I truly feel that you are not at fault for feeling this way, for you are a bit misinformed about the level or meaning of 'acceptance is that our community needs to have. We absolutely need to be accepting of people for who they are. But you have the definition wrong. We should accept that someone who is wearing tznius might be uncomfortable or uneducated about the importance of what they are doing, and therefor make sure to uplift, be positive to, or accept that while she might not be comfortable, Im Yirtzeh Hashem she will soon. That is Chabad- it might be a challenge and an everlasting fight with your Yetzer Horah to wear tznius, but that doesn't mean you don't have to and the Nachas Ruach given to Hashem isn't from doing something easy, rather doing it as a challenge.
We bent the rules of accepting so much that we are pretty much saying we accept you as a full Lubavitcher without you having to attempt to act as one - which is false. Putting on a modest but untznius dress isn't the right thing- it's a cop-out. So if you were one to always dress untznius and you made an effort to dress modestly for the occasion, great! I hope you take the next step to dress modestly in a tznius manner to all simchas, and then to shul on shabbos, and so on.
But I imagine that you are one who accepts yourself as a complete Lubavitcher (which you might be one), but shoves some things that we started turning a blind eye to, under the table.
My post is that we shutting be turning a blind eye to tznius - it's a major iker in Judiasm, and let's bring Lubavitch back to our correct standards, making sure to accept those who might not be so comfortable with these inyanei, but are in an uphill battle with it.
Mazal tov for your friend!
(7/17/2015 12:15:36 AM)
47
to 37
You say: ""Simply the way I live my life"

What if you want to eat treif, or keep shabbos but only drive a car shabbas. Does that make it right? You are wrong. I don't believe that anyone said these words to you. She most likely said dress like a frum person and Hashem will like that. You are Not a victim you are the source of much of the deteriation of our young generation. Bravo to any adult woman who has the guts to say it like it is."

NOW, imagine a shliach saying that to ANY person whom he/she comes in contact with. NO kidding that wouldn't work, and is opposite what the Rebbe spent his life, toil, and tears to teach us. There is a reason the Rebbe taught ahavas yisroel first. You who speak this way are not following the Rebbe, Judaism, and Torah, which is darcai noam.

For those of you who can't believe this happened, or excuse it as some crazy, well read the comments- about half seem to say she had it coming to her. IS that how we look at a yid, who has a neshama, an actual spark of Hashem??? And the answer has nothing to do with exactly how many inches long her sleeves were. Improving tznius in others is not off, but certainly being disrespectful to others not only won't accomplish anything, it's an avaira too. So you are frustrated that you can't force others to dress a certain way. Well I have news for you, our community has plenty to work on inside and out. We have a derech from the Rebbe on how to influence others. Just look at any shliach who is successful in small and big ways. How does he/she do it? By being a living example, by loving, by teaching, by respecting, by recognizing that other people exist, and need to have their own journeys, that every mitzvah a Jew does is valuable and a step towards Hashem, that it is not my job to force people to be xyz, but to be available to teach in a kind and loving and non judgmental way. The judgmental attitudes only serve to build a higher and higher wall between the different subgroups in CH, with each side saying "I am right" "I don't need to listen to listen, respect, or even acknowledge the other side." And yes we have continuously separate subgroups in CH that thrive and grown from this attitude. In no way am I saying sacrifice your values to get some abstract "unity" or "acceptance." I am simply saying that in CH, you who are dedicated should loo in the mirror and find a way to see yourself as a shliach, and figure out what that means.

And to any person who is spoken to in a disrespectful way no matter what or where, you know what? Speak up, you are a person a value who should stand your ground that as a human being you deserve to be treated with basic decency.
(7/17/2015 12:28:22 AM)
48
Waiting
For the 'better' approach that everyone must have. I am not condoning the comments or actions of this women and I am also of the opinion that tznius is an issue and that it needs to be addressed. Any better ideas? Honestly.
(7/17/2015 12:29:13 AM)
49
I agree with the author
Tznius has evolved in the past, and will continue to evolve in the future. I'm sure that when women switched from robes to dresses a thousand years ago, people thought it wasn't Tznius.
(7/17/2015 12:42:49 AM)
50
Number 3
Spot on!!!
(7/17/2015 12:50:43 AM)
51
To the author
Although the words were hurtful and in poor taste so was your dress. Just because you and your roommates think its OK to dress this way or that does not mean you have the right to bring it into a lechaim. In the future please be courteous to the others around you. We who live here and raise kids here and set a gone here are not going to sit back and watch as you desecrate all that is holy in our eyes.

As for it being your own business, no, if dressing is only for yourself then we'd just walk naked, modesty is be definition for others.
(7/17/2015 12:52:55 AM)
52
agree with 45
I agree with 45, but you know what hurts, when you see a girl who has been brought up frum, decides to change her dress code ,with short sleeves , skirts above her knees no tights then walks around the neighbor hood with no shame ,but other keep quiet because if you say something people are afraid they are going to go further away from yiddishkiet.. I do not know what the answer is.Just so sad.
(7/17/2015 1:04:35 AM)
53
To comment #5
The Rebbe welcomed people, he did not accept them 'for who they are'. The difference being not kicking someone out of shul (or doing this particular style of telling off) and telling a women its OK if she doesn't were a shatel. In fact the Rebbe refused to be mesader kiddushin if the man didn't keep a beard and the women wear a wig.
Point is its OK to let her know that she's wrong, and don't use the Rebbe to cover your misdeeds. Also if you dress untznius the Rebbe is not proud of it even if you write nicely.
(7/17/2015 1:05:35 AM)
54
Tznius
Don't think article ever happened but maybe subconsciously she felt someone looking at her. Personally we should all work on tznius since that one of of the three merits the yidden were taken out of galut!! We need that now!!!
(7/17/2015 1:23:09 AM)
55
DISGUSTING TO CALL IT "TZNIUS POLICE"
How can you can call a person who is of the wall "TZNIUS POLICE"?!
This "sensational" article unfortunately provides unjustified "justification" for the many who don't abide by the clear halochos of tznius outlined in the Shulchan Aruch!
(7/17/2015 1:30:43 AM)
56
Hashem loves you !
this lady has such a low self esteem she is jelouse
Of your beautiful dress and found happiness , many sic ladies who are self haters seek happy girls like you to hurt ,
Be happy , love yourself for who you are , where you came from and where you are going ,
Never accept any words from a fool , or you may level down to their level , I am living in Crosn Heights all my life , this community is a blessed community with the Rebbes brocho every single day , I wish these wakos a refuah shleima including those who put up barricades in front of the Rebbes shul tishrei time , they are jealous of your beautiful dress and sweet face , they live in bitterness, trying to make others bitter too , be happy ,
(7/17/2015 1:33:31 AM)
57
"It's simply the way I live my life"
If someone were to tell you off for things that you do privately that are not according to our standards in halacha, then you are 100% RIGHT- its simply the way you live your life. It is no one's business to say a word.

What you may not realize is the huge effect on OTHERS that your lack of tzniyus creates. Its not a simple decision that is no one's business. A lack of tzniyus unfortunately has negative ripple effects. As described by comment #39, there is a powerful negative impact that effects the entire community young girls, boys, bochrim and men. Etc

You are definitely right that the way the message was given over to you was done in the wrong way. Everything said to a fellow chossid should be said softly, from the heart with care and love. I'm sorry you had to hear it that way.

I hope that you can feel the love and care that is coming from my heart in this comment - and hear and understand the affect that you have on others by a decision that is really not so simple.

Lets all try to take something on, slow steps one small hachlata at a time. This will surely bring ripple effects of positivity and brachos to ourselves and fellow Chassidim[3
(7/17/2015 1:37:05 AM)
58
i feel bad.
its sad that peaple care so much about details and they miss the point.
the way to change an individual or a community is not through making harsh remarks and making someone feel bad rather someone will only change through positive influence and kindness.
To all those that are worried about their youth,the Rebbe wanted to go on shlichus and not rely on a community to be an example for our children.
i think it's sad that there are so many people that agree with such rong ways of rebuke.
it seems like people are very selfish when it comes to these matters they only care about their youth, their community and themself, they don't care about halacha or someone'sfeelings .
(7/17/2015 1:52:09 AM)
59
pinchas of our generation
Beautiful
(7/17/2015 2:08:22 AM)
60
to 46 and others
Tznius the way you described it, is NOT an iker in Judaism, never has and it never should be.

Can everyone please just calm down, and have some saichel with a bit of psychology, stop screaming grabbing arms, puting up posters, saying it affects things across the world, this will just make the situation worse. The more you have these silly tactics the more it will continue. It hasn't worked the past 10-15 years, and it will not work. All it does is creates fanatics on both sides.

Mimeni yireh vchain taasu,

Chodesh tov
(7/17/2015 2:20:07 AM)
61
Scepticle
How do we know that this exchange really transpired . I personally don't believe .
I live in an extremely wealthy city in Europe and the women here ( non Jewish) step out of their fancy cars looking a lot more modest then the ' modern' of crown heights!
One word missing in CH and that is.....CLASS!!
(7/17/2015 2:25:13 AM)
62

, "

, . ,
,
. ,
(7/17/2015 2:59:00 AM)
63
Why did you cry?
Were you laughing at her?

ROFL.....
(7/17/2015 3:02:19 AM)
64
to # 45
Everything is an option - its called free choice.
Everyone does have free choice!
God is the ultimate democratic creator.
He gave people the freedom to choose - he's also a cool risk taker/entrepreneur, for giving us this great world and all the choices within it!
Lots to learn from that god of ours!
(7/17/2015 3:03:11 AM)
65
Sorry, Everything is Hushgucha Pratis
If this happened, it happened for a good reason in order to bring her closer to Hashem.

The truth is that probably 40% of girls on Kingston in CH ar not dressed in accordance with halacha let alone middos Chassidus and it really needs to improve!
(7/17/2015 3:11:52 AM)
66
Max
Obviously the lady has issues that's not the way to deal with things but understandably as a human being when someone says something not nice to us to a certain degree it will bother us but that it should bother you to the point that you should write this whole letter ask your self why does it really bother me that much to the point that I have to write this whole letter. I don't know how you dressed that evening maybe that lady was just a nut or maybe you needed someone like that to trigger wake up something in you to feel different(in the case that you were wearing something that wasn't appropriate) that's it I'm done I think I'm getting carried away
(7/17/2015 3:31:27 AM)
67
OFFENDED??
Firstly, I Dont believe anyone spoke yo you so aggressively!! And if so stop playing victim!! I and many many others are deeply offended and embarrassed that our men can boys cant walk streets of Rebbes shchuna without having to see girls and women dressed im such untzniusdik attire! The other communities look down on us and its tremendous chilul Hashem! Were talking about halacha here not minhagim! Young jews come here to be mekarev and they have to see this??? Sorry but you cant snub the community with your blatant disregard of tznius and cry victim!!!
(7/17/2015 4:07:22 AM)
68
maybe this woman was gezsh like i am,
and having her ancestors wiped out by the holocaust, she just couldnt understand why someone would dress untznius, giving the nazis what they wanted, without a gun being pointed to her head!
(7/17/2015 4:49:01 AM)
69
To #32 ans #37
I understand your frustration but your anger and bitterness is bleeding through. Unfortunately we live in a time where there is a desperate need for shlichus in our own commmunity. Infact every child we raise "frum" is a shlichus. How easy it would be to turn someone away with a few hateful words like "Gd hates you." What unrefined speech or furthermore verbal abuse and garbage of the mouth. Who are you to judge any soul struggling through to keep their yiddishkeit together. Nobody is condoning dressing immodestly, but we definitely do not support the hateful words in which were said. Lastly, let me tell you how happy the Rebbe would be that less frum/modern/secular jews were moving to crown heights- what an opportunity to do a positive shlichus in our own home!
(7/17/2015 6:00:40 AM)
70
hurting mother
This post really effected my daughter who teachers kept yelling at her telling her shes a goy when she had a button open .words can effect a child my child was hurt so much by words and actions dresses like a non frum person because of it I wouldn't wish the pain on anyone .shes angry as the ones who told her to dress more tznius and do stuff that are not so kosher bh my daughter davens says brochos hopefully with the foundation shes had she will come back fully. Words hurt so be careful what u say
(7/17/2015 6:03:44 AM)
71
Applicable Timeless Wisdom from The Rebbe:
By the Grace of G‑d
5724 [1964]
Brooklyn, N.Y.

Greeting and Blessing:

.....

When an emergency arises, {..} all theoretical differences must be put aside in order to deal with the emergency. To illustrate my point: It is one thing to debate what type of houseif it caught fireis worth saving, OR BY WHAT METHOD, and by whom. It is quite another thing when one is actually facing a burning house with people trapped therein, old ones, younger ones and children. At such a time there can be no difference of opinion as to the imperative need to fight the blaze and save the trapped ones. This is the duty of everyone who is nearby, even if he is not a trained firefighter, and even if those trapped inside the burning house are strangers. The obligation is immeasurably greater, of course, if those inside are ones own relatives, and especially if one has had experience and has been successful in fire-extinguishing activity.

(2) Where a doubt exists as to what is good for an individual, or a group, or a nation, it is sometimes quite illuminating to consider what the enemy desires; especially if the enemy has shown persistent effort to attain his end. For then it would be clear that the opposite of what the enemy desires is good for that individual, group or nation.

.....

I hope and pray that my words, coming from the heart, will find the proper response in your heart.

With blessing,

______________________


{translated excerpt of another letter of The Rebbe from Yiddish}

When one see's that someone is sleeping and found in a house that is a house which is burning, no one will think to themselves that he shouldn't go and wake him from his sleep because "its his private business" and that you shouldn't "mix in" to anyone's.

Since when he wakes up you won't need to explain to him that he must run out of this house.
He will himself know that this type of {burning} house wont stand for him.
No more than that he was asleep is why he doesn't see what is going on around him.

This is the lesson: That We should know that if there comes to go a Jew and wants to say to someone that he wants to not conduct himself according to Shulchan Aruch (Jewish Law) -this is not the Jew speaking; it is his evil inclination speaking.
so When one comes to go to a person and frees him from someone who wants to pressure him, and wants to make him over, and wants to put him in harm, this is not something that we do which is not proper or refined, and we "mix into" his "private affairs," and that there is no right to do this because we live in a democratic state...

This is the opposite
Since this that "one who has the ability to correct an injustice and doesn't correct it..."
He who doesn't come to go to this Jew to wake him up, the blame rests on his shoulders, he is responsible, no the one who was sleeping -because he is asleep.

______


The message couldn't be clearer!
Too bad for the author that not everyone is as graceful as The Rebbe when a raging fire is risking the lives of all those around them.

The Rebbe 'in His own words' says, do the opposite of what they want you to do...
Lucky for The Rebbe, when it is someone reaching out to Him for support of a convoluted idea of what Ahavas Yisroel is all he has to do is turn their crooked hypothesis around on them to "serve them opposite of what is desired".
The rest of the world has to serve up a sharp dose of unsolicited opposition to achieve this, since such a person would argue "even if you're going to say something, at-least say it in such and such a way". The lesson is, do what they do not want you to do, because a house is on fire and lives are at risk.

Certainly one has no justification to complain to or about someone who "grabs their arm" while waking them up to save them from a fire.

To all those who say The Rebbe / Chabad doesn't support an approach unwanted by the individual, YOU ARE WRONG. In such an instance that is precisely the approach of Avahas Yisroel prescribed by The Rebbe! Stop the person from embarrassing themselves on a daily basis. If embarrassing them will achieve this, then do so, for they will be more embarrassed if you allow them to endlessly continue.

It may not be the approach that The Commander-in-Chief (The Rebbe) implements Himself, but it certainly is the approach the soldiers are taught to employ by their Rebbe and their Generals.

The Calm, Collected and Loving Commander-in-Cheif SCREAMED about only a few issues throughout the course of His entire life, and...

THIS IS ONE OF THEM!!!

... GET YOUR ACT TOGETHER ...
... stop whining like a child and trying to rewrite our orders ...

WE KNOW WHAT WE ARE DOING THANKS TO THE REBBE!

The Talmus makes it CLEAR that when a person is sinning publicly they may be chastised publicly, and certainly for someone who intends to continue conducting themselves immodestly, whatever they dislike hearing the most is the best medicine for them, as the Rebbe points out in the first letter contained herein.


To everyone with an illness like that of the author...

Get well soon, for everyone's sake.


I hope and pray that you get your mind right and stop conducting yourself like a wantonly destructive monster.

With blessing,

- Me
(7/17/2015 6:26:06 AM)
72
Very true
Amazing article with an important message for all. Kol hakavod to you for sharing this.
(7/17/2015 6:48:01 AM)
73
How does one deal with Fashion and Peer pressure?
There are a lot of very positive pro-tznius comments here. May I add that the nay sayers missed that the author wrote that the woman came over to her and quietly spoke to her. Her reply was inappropriate. Lack of tznius clothing seems to me to be due to gentile fashion trends and peer pressure, not to lack of self-respect or any other psychological hang ups. Chinuch today teaches a lot of feel good, soul enhancing concepts. Perhaps we also need to add the teaching of kabbolos oyl, yiras Shomaim, reward and punishment, and the ability to stand up to what is correct even if everyone else says it's nerdy. Then truly, HaShem will bentch us with only revealed goodness. Although put in a crass manner, we do believe that we enhance ourselves in the eyes of HaShem by following in His ways. Perhaps more enphasis can be placed on the teaching of Tanach as a practical handbook that inspires and guides so that the results of straying from HaShem's Torah and Mitzvos are relevant?
(7/17/2015 7:02:44 AM)
74
Read the article
She said her dress was tznius. Why are you all attacking her? She said that she was trying to be respectful and specifically dressed appropriately . Give her some credit.
(7/17/2015 7:30:20 AM)
75
I wish she said it to me
As an adult guy I'm never on the receiving end of this kind of chastising that I often hear about from older women (and men!!) To young women. I wish they would say something in from of me so I can give them a piece of my mind. They only pick on people they feel they are stronger than so they wont answer back.

Also, to the commentators saying "its in the torah" please show a source in the torah that refers to necklines and elbows.
(7/17/2015 7:47:18 AM)
76
Disgusting
This whole "Tznus Police" is worse than those who dress untzniusly! The point in suggesting to someone that they could dress more modestly is to help them, not embarrass them! And even then, people should keep their opinions to themselves! Make sure your hands are clean before pointing at others. Things are going to far!
(7/17/2015 7:49:13 AM)
77
unfortunate incident
As a therapist, #12's psyco babble is absurd. It was hard to read all the comments. No stranger ever has the right to touch you physically in the way you described. Obviously she is not well herself. I believe not dressing sniut for someone who knows better is like an insult to Hasem, but He loves all of us Yidden for sure. The rude, disruptive lady should have been asked to leave.
(7/17/2015 7:54:47 AM)
78
take it to heart
We all Yiden believe in hashgacha pratis, and how everything that one sees and hears is Hashem's message to each of us to bring us close to Him.

Since you decided to post, I assume that you care about what we have to say:
Regardless the inappropriate way the message was delivered to you, Hashem may have sent you BECAUSE HASHEM CARES ABOUT YOU AND WANTS TO BRING YOU CLOSE TO HIM AGAIN.
(7/17/2015 8:28:45 AM)
79
No 77
She wasn't disruptive. We were not there, but perhaps she didn't grab, but put a warm, loving hand on the girl but was treated with derision which got her to reply harshly. Although we could just as well agree with the author. So calm down. Neverthless, the author had to check whether she was dressed appropriately. Sorry, but I don't need to ask my husband such a question when we go out, because I don't have inappropriate clothing in the wardrobe! Indeed HaShem does love all of us, but sometimes, like any good parent, gives us a patch when we don't behave. Perhaps the good lady was trying to protect our dear author and not trying to curse her?
(7/17/2015 8:42:08 AM)
80
Pay attention
It seems that the women spoke softly to you and your response was RUDE. It is not your business how you dress in public. It is your RESPONSIBILITY because other young impressionable girls may follow.
If you would have responded with thank you for making me aware of my dress code, I am sure the lady would have left.
You exasperated the situation with your response.
This women is NOT the tznius police but a person who cares and is hurt by the deteriation of tzinuus in C H.
(7/17/2015 8:58:06 AM)
81
Therapist
The only "therapist" is the Nosi of the Generation, there is no source in Torah for "therapists" that refer to and rely on "secular knowledge"...
(7/17/2015 9:00:45 AM)
82
Good
now dress tzniusdik.
(7/17/2015 9:11:23 AM)
83
Just Like
It's like when you're eating something delicious and suddenly find a hair in your mouth. The food is still just as good as always, but that one hair could make you lose your appetite altogether. That woman who spoke harshly is like a hair in the food. She has no business speaking like that to anyone, and I know it's difficult, but try to give her as much thought as you would to that annoying hair. Don't let it ruin the entire meal, because it's really something insignificant.
(7/17/2015 9:12:34 AM)
84
the way to dress
dress as if you would be walking past the Rebbe
(7/17/2015 9:12:57 AM)
85
Both need correction
BH

There is proper attire for every event, and to come with an inappropriate untznius clothes is simply disrespectful, and you chose to be disrespectful don't be surprised that you were treated with disrespect.
on the other hand there clearly ways the Torah instructs us how to rebuke another, it should be done in private in a respectful sensitive manner, and out of love.
(7/17/2015 9:16:20 AM)
86
# 81
What in the world are you on about? By that token you should never enter a car it relys on secular knowledge to move you and keep u safe in the event of a crash.

And next time you have a headache hang a chicken from the doorpost see if it helps.
(7/17/2015 9:23:34 AM)
87
How should we broach this topic
Is there ANY way a person can say ANYTHING to another in this area that will be well received? The approach used would have turned me off, but It does make me think of a quote I heard recently, "Listen to your enemy. He has information your friends won't tell you."
(7/17/2015 9:26:32 AM)
88
Tears for prayers.
I hope your shedding tears was for the lack of Yiras Shomayim and mockery of Halocha that is pervasive in this society.
(7/17/2015 9:32:52 AM)
89
Pedant

Very good. So crazy people can also contribute. Hashems loves you but if fear of shame creates second thoughts in your mind about how or how much you present yourself in public then good on her.

Don't look. Don't look. I don't. But you are effectively robbing everyone of an normal field of vision. You are hurting the community and this is a thing only women can say to women so thank G-d for the crazies cause it's getting out of hand.
(7/17/2015 9:41:18 AM)
90
not a monster
You sound like a sweet young lady who really wants to do what's right. The best thing is to read the Shulchan Oruch and know the halochas instead of asking a friend.
The women who approuched you does NOT sound like a monster to me.
She was probably so upset with the entire scene and picked you to chastise.
Probably her life was so difficult to keep Torah and Mitzvos that she has a hard time seeing things against Torah which can be kept in FREEDOM today.
(7/17/2015 9:41:36 AM)
91
Tznius or not...
"Hashem doesn't like you," she said quietly. "He's going to punish you for what you are."
Even if the author was dressed immodestly, there are plenty of ways to tell her off in a way that is not CRUEL and HATEFUL!
(7/17/2015 9:42:34 AM)
92
Outsider
I am an outsider that does not understand. What is the great allure in dressing provocatively? Isn't there a beauty in the hidden? I think a woman that dresses in a revealing way lack self confidence. If you value it, you keep it hidden. If it's sacred, then it's powerful and private.

What is the message that the young women are receiving? And what message are are they giving back?

Is it a power struggle? A cry for attention? A rebellion?

These are really holy yidden. Dressing unholy. Why does it not bother them?

As far as rude people. If you provoke you will be met with all kinds of reactions. The mishigina will spit on you, the sensitive one will cry, the quiet one will remain silent, the creative one might make flyers on the subject.

An action. Brings a reaction.

It's painful for everybody.
(7/17/2015 9:44:23 AM)
93
To #20, Moshe, 80 and the rest of you pointing fingers
Tznius is very important and the way a person dresses does make one feel differently and act differently.

But there are other things to keep in mind.

Our community has opened it''s doors to welcome many people from all over. What if this had been someone that was actually not frum at all and trying to do their best?!! And though it seems like this girl grew up within the community - what ever happened to chesed starting at home?!!

In reality most of you do not even know the halachos of tznius. For example there is no halacha that states that a skirt needs to be 5 inches below the knee. Most of the "halachos" we keep are a community standard - not halacha.

There is no way to make this situation ok. Those of you justifying it are completely deranged.

Before you go up to someone or justify another person's obnoxious behavior - perhaps you should remember that embarrassing someone is like spilling blood - That is from the Torah!
(7/17/2015 10:08:59 AM)
94
The reason for immodesty is irrelevant, when...
Regardless of the reason that one doesn't wear protective clothing during the freezing winter months, the person will get cold.

Whether someone is immodest because of social pressures, "style", lack of funds to buy clothing that fits etc...

The result is the same...

They get sick (in the head) from it! They get cold in their spirit from it. It changes the way they relate to themselves and others. It's unavoidable.

And contrary to popular belief, the first person protected by modest attire is the person who wears it, for the first person damaged is the person who doesn't, regardless of anyone else.

A decent human being must go outside dressed appropriately to remain healthy in mind, body and spirit, and to foster health in mind, body and spirit for their fellow, especially fellow women and girls.

All this highlighting of one's form etc (tight-fitting clothing, slinky materials...) is waging war on their fellow woman, especially for those who struggle with their own form.
It is cruelty.
Have mercy on your fellow woman.
Especially those who are most challenged.

It is an assault of your own friends.

But, and here's the catch, those who do dress immodestly have caused themselves to develop such an insensitivity in their relating to other people (in-general) that they don't even realize it, because they are morally, ethically and socially blinded by their self-corruption and contortion, for whatever reason they got into it.


Dress well and upstanding (not tight and slinky and translucent and showy).

Let your human sensitivity and decency regenerate and become someone who is actually sensitive of others, instead of someone who can barely taste what real sensitivity is.

Then you might be capable of a genuine sensitive relationship with those closest to you in your life, and foster a healthy self, a healthy family and a healthy environment.

With blessing for success in succeeded in this regard.
(7/17/2015 10:09:42 AM)
95
what is tznius?
If anyone wants to be honest and willing to put your hysteria aside for a moment look at fotos from way back.Necklines are low.Sleeves above the elbows.These were totally frum women whose standards were very different from today.There was an emphasis on other issues.Times change and restrictions change.In fact take a good look and you will see certain women wore hats and hair was visible.I know.Hard to admit certain facts.Now I saw sleeves below the elbows and skirts below the knees but both were so tight,I could see every body part in graphic detail.So this is tznius too?You have to look at everything in context.Even the role models had issues with "tznius"because it is very subjective.Yes the shulchan orech states this and that but you know full well one can always twist and adapt so that the rule is intact but the overall picture is definitely not in the spirit of modesty.
(7/17/2015 10:10:20 AM)
96
crazy
the tznius police are doing a good job . keep it up. its a shame that in all the other frum comunities in the world (other chassidim and not chassidim) and even chabad in other cities they are very tznius, and in the rebbs's shchuna they are not tznius
(7/17/2015 10:45:37 AM)
97
It or You
Think again, maybe the lady said Hashem does not like IT (refering to the lack of respect to Him) and you heard Hashem does not like You.
(7/17/2015 10:46:13 AM)
98
reverse tactics
What you should have done is taken her photo. and then shamed her on all the social media sites. Let her feel some of the shame she gave you. Maybe remind her what it says about publicly embarrassing someone! It makes me angry to think how many people might have been further pushed away with these comments. These people think this will bring moshiach closer?! I can assure you it only lengthens us to remain in galus.
(7/17/2015 10:53:36 AM)
99
Dear Shaina,
C'mon,honestly,this women has a mental health issue and obviously doesn't represent the rest of us. Some like to use the worse case scenarios to "prove" how tznus isn't that important or that those who think it is are wrong. Rally what's lacking here is poshut honestly with one's self.
(7/17/2015 10:57:10 AM)
100
I think...
that this article comes in today in response to yesterdays article regarding tznius and the protection of Israel. BUT, if not then, what the woman said was outrageous. However, we still have an obligation to be tznius.
(7/17/2015 11:01:32 AM)
101
That's my business
When any Jew is lacking in any way it is the responsibility of all of klal yisroel to reach out to them and to save them.
The Rebbe spoke publicly about and pointed out the error of those who say "my life is is my business" comparing it to someone who rents a room in a cruise ship and then starts to drill a hole in the bottom of the ship. When the other passengers implore them to stop they say "I paid for this room and what I do in it is my business."
A person who does not act in the way that befits a Jew is a drilling a hole in the bottom of Klal Yisroel's boat.
(7/17/2015 11:15:56 AM)
102
Lets not forget about the men
People folks, let us not forget about the men who do the same on a daily basis.
why do we in crown heights tolerate men and women who suffer from insecurities about their religious lifestyles. and take it out on strangers...!?
this is not bnei brak where we throw rocks and scream shabbos which has as much of a positive effect on people as brain tumor...
(7/17/2015 11:24:42 AM)
103
you are grabbing a "red herring"
I personally don't believe this story happened. If it did, it was exaggerated.

If in a million chances it happened the way it was written here, obviously the woman that made the comments is NOT your average Lubavitcher.
To every generality there are exceptions. This woman making the comments was clearly an exception, and you know that!
.
SO WHY DO YOU WRITE TZNIYUS POLICE??
Do you have an agenda to show that those that REALLY care about tzniyus are mean and crazy like this woman, (if it ever happened).
If someone in the street said something crazy to you about anything, such as "you look fat" "or you look ugly" or anything like that would you write an article?? NO! Because its isolated and that person is not in the NORM.

Don't try to lump together people that RIGHTFULLY should comment about your untzniyus clothing but obviously do it in the way the Shulchan aruch says and the Rebbe taught us "in a pleasant way".
But don't think for one second we shouldn't comment you about it. YES. We should tell you!! and continue to tell others till we get back our neighborhood to the level of tzniyus necessary.
But you are being intellectually dishonest by using "a red herring" about a nasty comment from a lady to divert attention from the true problem which is, that people are not commenting enough, and everything goes in Crown Heights.
The Rebbe NEVER SAID no one should mix in to other peoples business. Especially tzniyus IS in public and is everyones business.
(7/17/2015 11:37:21 AM)
104
to#92
Be specific when you say revealing what are they revealing.

This is one of the most easiest topic to attack, but why is that?

#65
What's stopping men from walking the streets?
(7/17/2015 11:48:26 AM)
105
"Crazy" "mental issues"
To those that say "well obviously this woman wasn't normal" just read the comments. Half the commentators seem to think she was justified or that it's sheinas fault. Does that make them crazy too? To dismiss the woman as a crazy person is to dismiss the issue of people being downright nasty to their own. Why is it so easy for some people to love and accept outsiders but not their own? Sheina brought up a real issue that needs to be talked about and not just dismissed as making drama.
(7/17/2015 11:56:19 AM)
106
Both are wrong
Thats it: both are wrong, the article shows only the bad comment of the "tznius" woman but both are wrong!
(7/17/2015 12:21:25 PM)
107
with the old breed
there are not two sides stop trying to break and build. Why are you living in CH because of the Rebbe? We are all his children and there is nothing greater then when they get along. now is the time to act with love not hate.
(7/17/2015 12:25:11 PM)
108
@44
At a recent Shiur (Shabbos Parshas Balak), Crown Heights Mashpia Rabbi Michoel Seligson quoted a Sicha of the Rebbe, in which he says that women observing the laws of Tznius protect the Jewish people in the land of Israel from harm.

Some of those present asked Rabbi Seligson for the source of this Sicha, which he provided, and sent it to us as well to share with the broader Chabad community.

Excerpt of the Rebbes talk to Kinus Nshei Ubnos Chabad, Iyar 28, 5730 (1970):

.. And it should be as we have just read (in the Parsha), You will live safely in your land (plus every Jew where ever they find themselves) in a manner of You will sleep without fear, there will be no need for a watchman. . .because the Almighty watches, about whom it is said, The guardian of Israel neither slumbers nor sleeps.

For the this (above protection) we also need to observe tznius (modest dress), as the verse states Since G-d, your G-d is accompanying your camp (because) he does not see any immorality in you; when the Almighty sees that by the Jewish nation, wherever they are, there is no lack of tznius - then the Almighty is between them to save you and to place your enemies before you, that the Jewish needs to do nothing on its own, because the Almighty saves them, and with his own energy Places your enemies before you, that they are all destroyed, and fall before the Jews.

To the extent that His enemies (of the Jewish nation) make peace with him, and I will grant peace in the land, that the enemies are converted and become those who make peace and beg for peace with the Jews. . .

Likutei Sichos vol. 8 page 226-227
(7/17/2015 12:43:50 PM)
109
very well put
i grew up in crown hights
the rebbes look at tznius was
kol kvudah bas melech pnima
definition in my opinion is basic self respect
fortunately lately we were honored with individuals from a community where tznius is all about what the man can see
and that's the biggest mistake to enter our community
it is an approach that is the to belittle the holy self confidence that serves as a force in every aspect of our shlichus
(7/17/2015 12:50:46 PM)
110
to no 81
youre clearly ignorant THE REBBE HIMSELF AHS ADVISED MANY PEOPLE TO GO AND SEEK THERAPY
(7/17/2015 1:27:15 PM)
111
TO 96. YOU ARE RIGHT.
Did your dress cover your knees? BE HONEST. That is a problem if it did.
WE NEED MASHICA.
tznius police ARE GOOD.
(7/17/2015 1:47:33 PM)
112
Shaina, Shaina, sechel, sechel
Dears and chers,

If the story is true or a made up, anyway it's sad.

Sad that you should imagine such a scenario, that and in the 3 weeks,
Sad, to report a dysfuctional girl/lady, and there are a handfull, nevertheless you support her by this article in her fantastic 'responsabilit'y and by adding a Title of ' Tziyuth Police'. (Police of whom, is Tzniyus needs a Police?, Tzniyus needs 'Jewish Models', like cheekiness has already plenty of indecent Models)

True to the core, Tzinyuss is indeed a personnal issue, in a personnal environement, only in your house, [and effectivly you can even 'mafrish challah...'], as for outside, the tzniyuss is relevant to the 'Others', so let dress such that someone seeing you should not LOOK at you.

By the way, a nb., the Jersey's at 2 sizes smaller are not advised, for none of the Modeling (indecent or Jewish) ; ) .
(7/17/2015 2:04:31 PM)
113
Sounds like a whack job
This woman that yelled at you sounds a bit crazy.
I believe strongly in tznius, and the lack of tznius bothers me, but a normal person does not put down another in this fashion.
You met a crazy lady at a l'chaim. Ok.
If you feel this bad, it means that you were not sure about how were dressed. It's fine. Move along. You met a crazy lady. Stop taking this so personally.
(7/17/2015 2:16:56 PM)
114
To #75
You are right.

The Rebbitzin dressed Tznius because that was her way of life.

So all you Tanius police commentators, tell me, that was the way The Rebbitzin was Tznius, and this is the way I am Tznius. Maybe even more Tznius than you, because I am beautiful in the inside, too, not just with my skirt and sleeves to the ground, and my neckline til the sky. So what am I doing wrong?

And #25, exactly - everyone had their ma'alos and chesronos. Mine might be Tznius, and theirs might be Ahavas Yisroel.

(7/17/2015 3:02:31 PM)
115
What Right?
The first thing that hit me when I read this op ed, is that I would feel "violated" if another person put her hands on me! To add to the violation of the writer's personal space, does the perpetrator really think that she will "mekarev" her prey with her negative approach?

As a FFB person, (but not orignally Chabad), what has drawn me to Chabad is the Rebbe's ZY"A approach that there is more than unites us then divides us.

It is always easy to mekarev someone who knows nothing about Yiddishkeit, then we, the ones supposedly in the know, find it EASY to be loving, understanding, etc.

The REAL TEST is to understand that there are plenty of us in the fold, who may have questions, that no one wanted to answer, or perhaps there are those of us, who may have
suffered at the hands of those who set themselves up as the machanchim/mechanchos/MASHPIYIM some of whom who have done more harm then good.

The Rebbe, ZY"A begged us to understand that a kind word can tip the scales...and bring the Geula.

Whoever attacked this woman, she should take heed and mend HER ways....
(7/17/2015 3:04:37 PM)
116
What would affect you to grow in Tznius?
It would be interesting is to have the author write a follow up article of what could've been said that would've motivated her to want a high standard in Tznius i.e. to the degree those comments drove her to tears, what could've been said to drive her to be such an example of Tznius that she attracts compliments rather than criticisms.
(7/17/2015 3:53:40 PM)
117
WHY WAS SHE NOT TZNUIT?
The Rebbe said that ALL women and girls should dress tznuis. It does not matter if you are modern, all girls should dress tznuis. It was wrong of the lady to approach her like that she should of done it in private. But really if she is moved to tears when someone tells her she is not tznuit THAN WHY NOT DRESS TZNUIT!!!
(7/17/2015 4:41:50 PM)
118
The Tznius Lady
I think everyone is jumping to conclusions without hearing the second party. Now that is definitely against Torah. I was at a lechayim and heard a lady say to a woman not dressed 100% according to halacha that it's not nice and Hashem doesn't like it. She never attacked the girl. When I asked her why she speaks like that and doesn't just say the positive she told me when she grew up her mother would read her the Tochacha every day so she would have the fear of Hashem in her. That is what kept her strong in the times of Stalin when so many young people were attracted to communism. So all these comments are truly against Torah. Everyone is judging based on one side. Whether you agree with this lady or not she is not deranged or insane. She is a special person who loves everyone and is so shocked that in this generation when there is freedom to keep Torah and mitzvah behidur so many women are choosing to dress non-tzinusdik. It is so painful to see that the nisoyon of ashirus is so difficult. Why? We should be thanking Hashem for the liberty to live as Yidden and show Hashem we mean it because it's His World and He wants us to bring Moshiach and I hope her tears were tears of Teshuva although very few of us would talk that way.
(7/17/2015 4:41:53 PM)
119
The moral of the story
Why change yourself when you can criticize someone else? Both the girl and the woman were engaging in the same thing, trying to change other people.
(And yes, so am I. But that's my point, we all do the same thing)
(7/17/2015 4:54:37 PM)
120
attn #33!
I 100% agree with you!

Many people in Crown Heights have a huge tznius issue, and im not sure what to think about this scenario.
What that woman said was wrong. Wearing non tzniusdike clothing is also wrong
(7/17/2015 5:28:57 PM)
121
Shamed to be a lubavitcher
How dare the author asking in a lubavitch website for compassion when she embarrassed every lubavitch woman or girl living outside of crown heights! This is the rebbes place not a modern orthodox community. I understand why another woman is fed up and aggravated by the authors way of dress. I don't step in crown heights any more because it's too painful. You can move to Teaneck and five towns and stop presenting yourself as a lubavitch girl because we have to defend lubavitch name because of you
(7/17/2015 5:59:40 PM)
122
Connection To God
Your story reinforces the idea that we must NOT allow ANYONE to stand in between ourselves and Hahsem. NO ONE should EVER be allowed to contaminate this pure and holy bond. L'chaim.
(7/17/2015 6:10:54 PM)
123
Thank you!
Some of these comments are harsh but I've learned a valuable lesson. I'm not from crown heights and I'm working and improving in tznuis but I'm not perfect. I honestly never thought about the impact of tznuis in a community and with the help of G-d I will dress 100% tznuis in ch and other large Jewish communities. Thank you for opening my eyes.
(7/17/2015 7:36:24 PM)
124
True story
Unfortunately this is the second time I hear of a lady telling someone "gd hates you because your skirt is too short". At a L'chaim. The first time it happened with a non Chabad girl who specifically chose her" longest skirt " for the Chabad event, a co worker's lechaim, and was also approached by (I guess) this woman telling her that gd hates her. She was shocked and sad. I was ashamed. HOWEVER, I knew this is not a typical Chabad lady. She MUST have issues. And that's what I told my non Chabad friend. That this is for sure not our approach, but this must have been a mentally challenged lady. And that was it. No drama, no crying .. She understood that in every community there is this kind of people who do not represent who we are.
(7/17/2015 7:42:32 PM)
125
Wow, that's insane!
Wish I was there to back you up!
And I'm a bochur...
What a sick thing to say to someone!
If I see that happen I would kick that lady who made such a nasty comment out of the room. She doesn't belong next to people, she belongs upstairs 770...
(7/17/2015 9:54:23 PM)
126
Perspective
People are saying here that although the offending woman was inappropriate in her words and approach, the young woman is still at fault for not dressing appropriately in Crown Heights, where there are higher standards as determined by the teaching of the Rebbe. Others are complaining about the lack of female Tznius that is witnessed on Kingston Avenue.


I think that the older woman was indeed in the wrong, and that the complainers must face the fact that just because someone is raised in a Frum family, it does not mean that Tznius is not challenging. This incorrect perception seems to accord with the general worldview that Orthodox Jews are meant to be perfect and not struggle. It has been said here as well that no-on would dare reproach an unreligious congregant at a Chabad house in this manner, and I think its unfair to say that Frum people can simply be trodden upon.


Now, does the author perhaps need to improve in the area of Tznius? Maybe, and, for the record, she does acknowledge her struggle and journey in her piece. But I find it interesting that the commenters decry the lack of Tznius dress in the Crown Heights neighbourhood, citing shame to the Rebbe, while I have seen terrible, embarrassing and inappropriate behaviour perpetrated by men in the very sanctuary of 770 itself. I have witnessed littering, swearing, gluttony, violence, alcoholism and a general lack of regard for Kedushas Beis HaKnesses. I have seen full blown minyonim for Shacharis taking place at 1pm, and Musaf well past Motzoei Yom Tov. I was personally shoved out of a dancing circle on Simchas Torah, being harshly told it was only for Toronto bochurim. When I left the 770 Shul, I witnessed several people vomiting on Eastern Parkway due to being intoxicated. How on earth could the Rebbe be proud of this despicable behaviour taking place in his very Beis HaKnesses, the very spot in which he delivered so much Torah and inspiration? Forget Kingston, what about 770 for crying out loud???


I believe that these unfortunate behaviours are just as much a breach of Tznius as the clothing issue and perhaps even more. We need to remember that Tznius is not just about womens clothing lengths, but rather about a mindset of refinement which influences the way we speak, act and behave towards others. I say that if we begin to accept that everybody struggles, and we try as hard as we can to validate the struggle while respectfully engaging those people and educating them in a positive way, we will begin to witness change Bezas Hashem.
(7/18/2015 10:07:10 AM)
127
I think some people are missing the point
I think some people are missing the point. This article isn't about whether the author was dressed according to the standards of the community or not. The article was pointing out how this negative approach not only doesn't help the tznius situation, but it makes things worse. It makes people angry and negative, and less likely to change how they dress.

Saying something is one thing. Driving people away is another. And whether our not you like it or you think it is right, a different approach is needed in our community and schools if you want our daughters to pass down the beauty of Judaism to their children instead of the rigidity, anger, and resentment we're bringing them up with.
(7/18/2015 10:09:13 PM)
128
Stockings
Is it more tznius to wear stockings and painted toenails or no stockings and closed toed shoes
(7/18/2015 10:51:56 PM)
129
HALACHA
if you are not tznius the way shulchan aruch says then you are not exactly frum, its not called modern its called fry!!! and you dont belong in the rebbes community!!!
the rebbe didnt stand for such thing so dont start saying whats the rebbes way when the rebbe said clearly that his way is tznius according to shulchan aruch!!!
(7/18/2015 11:13:51 PM)
130
I think some people are missing the point
I think some people are missing the point. This article isn't about whether the author was dressed according to the standards of the community or not. The article was pointing out how this negative approach not only doesn't help the tznius situation, but it makes things worse. It makes people angry and negative, and less likely to change how they dress.

Saying something is one thing. Driving people away is another. And whether our not you like it or you think it is right, a different approach is needed in our community and schools if you want our daughters to pass down the beauty of Judaism to their children instead of the rigidity, anger, and resentment we're bringing them up with.
(7/18/2015 11:17:00 PM)
131
CH old timer
I must say that I visit CH every so often, and I'm shocked the way "some" dress. Dressing tznius is not as much as for yourself but rather the people that pass by you. You are machsil others with a Lav of v'loi susiru.. yes the Rebbe N"E would accept each and every one with love it still does not give you a heter of wearing in modest dresses. Come on CH and wake up tznius is a very serious aveireh
(7/19/2015 12:01:53 AM)
132
to 65- FOURTY PERCENT?!
i think you got your numbers completely wrong!
i am so sorry to say this- but unfortunately, AT LEAST 90% (!!!) are NOT DRESSED TZNIUSDIK!!!
tell me, how many of THE BEST GIRLS cover their knees, ACCORDING TO THE STANDARDS OF HALACHA???
not more than 10%...
hashem should help...
(7/19/2015 12:50:22 AM)
133
"MY PERSONAL BUISENESS" ???
SO if 100 lubavitcher men would march around the streets of crown heights in front of YOUR CHILDREN,wearing NO YARMULKAS but they'd say its "MY PERSONAL BUISENESS & i learn chitas & i'm a refined person & dont be m'rachek me etc... if everyone will just be quiet..YOU KNOW WHAT CH WILL END UP IN ... TIME TO WAKE UP!
(7/19/2015 1:21:04 AM)
134
Kvuda Bas Melech
When will the sefer Kvuda Bas Melech (on the halachos of Tznius) be reprinted?
(7/19/2015 1:30:52 AM)
135
To QUOTE THE REBBE
the Rebbe once said , when a woman (or girl) does not dress tzniusdik she is making a statement that she has nothing more (than a body) to offer....
Whilst this woman used the wrong words (if it is in fact true) the lack of tzniusdik in crown heights is so painfully hard to live with, and it's a huge credit to all the women who dress appropriately for not lacing into the boards of crown heights women who are embarrassing Lubavitch to the world by their atrocious lack of any vestige of Tznius!!!
(7/19/2015 2:16:51 AM)
136
#118
explains where the critic is coming from. Perhaps someone
can help her get her message across in a milder manner.
(7/19/2015 2:44:59 AM)
137
Jewish models from 5th av in CH
When I see a beautiful young woman in very fancy dress , like a model from a poster on 5th ave .....
1. I'm happy that she is still in CH for Shabbes and
Yom Tov , her little kids are yeshiva boys and her husband going to the synagogue in CH !!! One day I believe her dress will grow with her
2. I'm happy to see her in fancy dress because she challenges our community to dress more fancy and not in shmata every Shabbes and Yom Tov , and on a regular day too
3. I wish I could find a fancy dress like her just kosher - so we both will be happy and beautiful
4. I'm proud that CH has beautiful ladies , that should find a new way together of fashion and modesty
(7/19/2015 3:06:44 AM)
138
2 points
To # 126 I know I don't live in N.Y., but every time I visit N.Y. in the women's section, I see many Tznius women and girls doing the right thing, I believe at least the vast majority of men also are. Please don't take the liberty to disrespect the Rebbe and his Chassidim, with your nasty and insensitive comments (despite your possible good intentions) about one of the Holiest places on earth, painting an ugly picture, regardless of your possible personal experiences. I personally feel a lot of Holiness in 770, which I feel your comment disregards!! Although not ideal at all, there is an Inyan to Daven later (Shacharis for example), than not Daven at all. You talk about not judging the girls for their Tznius struggles and yet you seem to have no problem putting down men for their struggles. Again it could be that your intention was pure, but how will your comment make any change in the issues you seem to have experienced.

Now regarding this op-ed, without getting into this particular episode, in general, when I see someone dressed Tznius (not Shlumpy) I see class, self-respect, dignity, the opposite of nerdy. When I see an untznius person (although I do not judge individuals) it comes across as the opposite. I look more with pity that this individual needs to confirm to societies version on what they believe beauty is.
The million dollar question is; how can we give the gift of feeling self respect and dignified to all the woman and girls today?

p.s. For those who may not be aware, fashion is made to make you attracting. There is a huge difference between "Jewish beautiful" and "fashionable".
(7/19/2015 5:28:34 AM)
139
Post your picture!
#98 - What would be fair is for Shaina to post a picture of HERSELF in that outfit!!!!
You are missing the point.
As a Lubavitcher we either do a KIDDUSH HASHEM (KIDDUSH LUBAVITCH) or the oppoite.
What's in your heart only Hashem knows but your Chitzonius - your clothing everyone sees and judges you by them.
It is not fair to our HOLY TORAH and HOLY REBBE to disobay and disgrace them.
(7/19/2015 5:35:58 AM)
140
KEEP YOUR SKIN PRIVATE!
READING THIS ARTICLE AND SOME OF THE COMMENTS MAKES MY BLOOD BOIL!
HOW LOW HAVE WE FALLEN, THAT A CARING WOMEN WHO FINALLY HAD THE GUTS TO SPEAK UP IS CALLED CRAZY AND INSANE!!
SHE DIDNOT STRIKE HER ; JUST HELD ON TO HER. THIS TOO COULD HAVE COME FROM A PLACE OF CARING.
HAS THE OUSIDE INFLUENSE ALSO GOTTEN TO ALL OF YOU?
MY SON CANNOT WALK ON KINGSTON AVENUE BECAUSE OF THE WAY SOME GIRLS DRESS.
IS THAT FAIR? DID YOU EVER THINK THAT YOUR ACTIONS MAKE KINGSTON AVENUE A NO- FRUM ZONE.
I AM SO UPSET ABOUT THE LACK OF CONDSIDERATION FOR OTHERS WHO FOLLOW HALOCHA .
YES, WE ARE RESPOSIBLE FOR EVERYONE AND THE WAY YOU DRESS SHOULD BE CONSIDERATE OF OTHERS.
WE BH, ALL LIVE IN HOUSES SO IF YOU HAVE A YETZER HORA FOR SHORT OR PROVOCATIVE OUTFITS WEAR THEM AROUND YOUR HOUSE, MODEL ,THEM TO YOUR HUSBANDS.
SOMETIMES I WOULD LIKE TO SAY SOMETHING BUT AM TOO SHY TO DO IT.
(7/19/2015 5:56:23 AM)
141
Have a heart
Breaking someone's spirit is worse than a minor infringment of tziniut, surely! Particularly if the infringement was inadvertent and not intentional.
(7/19/2015 8:34:44 AM)
142
Keep it you yourself
Wow what do you think you accomplished by being rude?
(7/19/2015 9:26:56 AM)
143
lmhc
there is no concept of old or new generation here we are all bought into this world to grow upwards its not about tolerance
(7/19/2015 11:25:20 AM)
144
TO 116 AND ANYONE ELSE INTERESTED IN FINDING SOLUTIONS
about how to encourage girls to dress tznius'dik.
there i9s a lot to be said, and whoever has a suggestion PLEASE tell everyone- the more people know, the better we can implement it. thank you!

on a personal note, last shabbos, i got a comment that was a very strong chizuk for me to dress tzniusdik. on shabbos, i was in 770 wearing a tzniusdike dress, and a girl who i dont know, walked over and said "your dress is very pretty". this seemingly tiny comment REALLY made me realize that wearing a tzniusdike dress didnt make me ugly or anything, and i felt that my effforts to be dressed tzniusdik are appreciated.
DO NOT UNDERESTIMATE THE POWER OF A WORD!!
a small compliment is all it takes to make someone feel special, and give them courage to keep on doing the right thing.
and i mean compliment EVERYONE! compliment people whom you dont know- davka because i dont know this girl, it made me feeel that even others around me notice that i am pretty and tzniusdik. compliment the "chassidishe" girls who are anyways (???) tniuisdik- you never know if she is going through an inner struggle, in addition to the constant struggle- if someone keeps to a certain standard it doesnt mean its easy for them, perhaps they are constantly sruggling against peer pressure, stares etc., and one tiny word can give them kochos to carry on and be strong. it gives the feeling that her efforts are not going unnoticed, and they are highly appreciated.

THANK YOU VERY MUCH to the kind girl who gave me this encouragement!!!
(7/19/2015 11:43:33 AM)
145
Assimilation
I REALLY don't believe this story happened exactly as said.

Question: Why are so many people here not inspired? They don't care that they are assimilating. First, they excuse themselves. Then they hate religion. This is what happened between the two World Wars--and continues til this day.
(7/19/2015 12:07:22 PM)
146
To Sheina
The next time someone bullies you, or anyone else, this way, take our your phone, take a picture of them, and post it online. Bullies only see to understand what they are doing when they are recipients of the same behaviour.
(7/19/2015 12:12:33 PM)
147
She was a messenger of hashem
In chasidus we learn that everything that happens to u is hashgacha protis for all you As far as she is concirned hashem has his way of sending everyone the message they need to hear
Its sad that you where hurt and we pray that hashem should find pleasent ways to send us messages
Amen
(7/19/2015 3:41:11 PM)
148
To Sheina
Next time you dress as an example of a true Bas Yisroel
and let people learn from you. You can tip the scale to bring Moshiach Now!
(7/19/2015 3:50:20 PM)
149
Who knows what the Rebbe said?
Everyone speaks in the name of the Rebbe, but do you know what the Rebbe really said? It's all printed in a book "The Rebbe on Modesty", in easy to read style and gorgeous layout.
Read what the Rebbe said, and then you can speak up.
(7/19/2015 4:45:54 PM)
150
to 128
Wear stockings. thanks for doing your best to improve! keep it up!
(7/19/2015 8:25:04 PM)
151
stop being all opend minded
for some reason these storys never happen to me or my friends and i know its sad to be told off but when its deserved thats it next time dress tznius
(7/19/2015 8:37:18 PM)
152
It looks like
based on the pro Tznius comments that we have many more women, who dress properly, then not, B"H!!
(7/19/2015 8:56:15 PM)
153
Why?
I don't understand why, of all the mitzvos, people get the MOST upset when they see a woman not adhering to what they understand to be the letter of the law when it comes to tznius. You just don't see threads with 150 comments about someone who picked the raisins out of her salad on Shabbos. What is it about US that we can't deal when we see someone else not following this particular area of halacha? Men and women alike seem to be terribly upset about the way other people dress. Do we have people stopping people at engagement parties and pointing out to them that they really shouldn't be gossiping about other people? Do we see pages and pages of comments about how the level of checking lettuce in Crown Heights is going down and we're all having shalom bayis and parnoso problems because of it? I just don't get it!
(7/19/2015 9:00:51 PM)
154
The Rebbe Igrot Kodesh V. 26 p. 324
7 Adar I, 5730
Brooklyn, NY

To the Worldwide Central Organization of N'shei Uvnos Chabad, G-d Bless Them:

Greeting and Blessing!

On several occasions I have already made note of the importance of strengthening the issue of tznius. However, taking into account the general situation in this area, I find it important to issue a strong appeal, today, regarding this matter.

From a Torah perspective it is superfluous to expand on the importance on the topic of tznius. Suffice it to say that the Torah is called (a living Torah) since it is our guide to our daily life. The Torah guides our day-to-day behavior from the moment we open our eyes until we go to sleep. And, it is our Torah that strongly emphasizes on all mitzvahs and especially on the vital importance of tznius. The Torah guarantees all who adhere to the mitvah of tznius a blissful life since this is one of the most essential foundations of yiddishkeit as it says '' '' (walk modestly with your G-d).
The significance and importance of modest conduct is evident from the great reward promised by the Torah, the Gemara and the Zohar for being vigilant in tznius. Also, our sages recount stories of Jewish women throughout the generations who merited wondrous Divine blessings in the merit of their observance of tznius; not just blessings for themselves but on behalf of their families and descendants as well. Furthermore, the gravity of tznius is evident from the terrible consequences, G-d forbid, that are apt to result from a lack of adherence to tznius - as detailed in Yeshaya ch. 3.
There are some who erroneously believe, due to their ignorance, that the laws of tznius "restrict" and rob a woman of her personal right and are insulting to her honor. This is clearly a false claim. The truth, however, is precisely to the contrary. The holy Torah and our sages of blessed memory stress countless times the respect and esteem of a Jewish woman. In fact, there were many enactments established specifically for the sake of protecting a woman's honor and stature. With regard to this, the well-known verse in Psalms (45:14), " " is often applied, meaning the true honor of a Jewish daughter, the princess, is from within. The Torah refers to a Jewish daughter as honorable, as a person of stature, and as a princess. The Torah, however, requires that these virtues express themselves in a concealed manner, in a manner of - tznius.
Moreover, it is evident from a purely humanistic view, particularly in our generation, the detrimental fallout that results from a breakdown in the standards of tznius. The proliferation of shameless women's clothing today, which are intended to arouse man's most base animalistic instincts, have succeeded in disassociating modern man from the most basic ethics and values. The unrestrained behavior and immodest dress of much of today's youth, Hashem yerachem (Heaven help us) has brought terrible tragedies to many homes. It is certain that had these youths been educated in the basic laws of tznius, according to the teachings of our holy Torah, many of these tragedies would have been averted and many of these youngsters would not have ruined their lives.

In light of the above, I am of the opinion that the subject of Tznius must be set as one of the top priorities of the daily schedule in responsible Jewish circles.

Especially as the central association of all international branches of the N'shei Uvnos Chabad, your expected task at the moment would be, to undertake an intensive campaign to call on the Jewish community, in particular Jewish women's organizations regardless of their specific responsibility to address the question of tznius as part of their activities.

We have to awaken Jewish mothers to the reality of the deprivation of tzniusin their daughters upbringing.

We need to bring to the attention of the administrations of girls educational institutions, of all ages, to be stricter in the matter of tznius, and explain to the students, that tznius is the finest characteristic, the crown of the Jewish mother and daughter.

We must toil to persuade all those who understand and are guarded in tznius, that they share a responsibility for their sisters (and aquaintances) - and must make them aware, both by speaking to them persuasively, and particularly by setting an example, that they should reinforce the concept of tznius in their homes and communities.

It is already high time that Jewish mothers and daughters realize their strength and their independence of the false, luring and outright empty fashions of the surrounding environment, fashions that have no meaning other than the greed of those who have a financial interest.

In the merit of strengthening and publicizing the concept of tznius in all aspects of daily living, Hashem should bestow upon us the blessings, which the Torah promises to those who adhere to the laws of tznius. Specifically, these modest women, together with their husbands, should merit living joyous long lives and seeing true Yiddish nachas from their children and grandchildren while enjoying good health and abundant wealth.

With blessings for great success and good news in all of the above.


(Igrot Kodesh V. 26 p. 324) free translation
(7/19/2015 11:00:06 PM)
155
Igrot Kodesh V. 26
Moreover, it is evident from a purely humanistic view, particularly in our generation, the detrimental fallout that results from a breakdown in the standards of tznius. The proliferation of shameless women's clothing today, which are intended to arouse man's most base animalistic instincts, have succeeded in disassociating modern man from the most basic ethics and values. The unrestrained behavior and immodest dress of much of today's youth, Hashem yerachem (Heaven help us) has brought terrible tragedies to many homes. It is certain that had these youths been educated in the basic laws of tznius, according to the teachings of our holy Torah, many of these tragedies would have been averted and many of these youngsters would not have ruined their lives.

In light of the above, I am of the opinion that the subject of Tznius must be set as one of the top priorities of the daily schedule in responsible Jewish circles.

(7/19/2015 11:02:08 PM)
156
Torah is for ever
B"H

Sorry. There is no "past" generation, "modern" "new" ideas. Torah and Mitzvos are for ever (including Tznius). There are basic laws and their violation is a violation of the Torah, if we like it or not. Where is "ego", there is no place for Me (Hashem). We have to understand that by choosing good and life we make the path for our children. When we behave/eat/wear/etc. like non-Jews how we're different from them? What's the point of putting so much effort if in 2 generations our children will say CHAS VESHALOM, I'm not Jewish but my grandma was. We have responsibilities and they didn't change with time and modesty of Jewish woman saved the entire nation. Also in Chassidus it is said that if you noticed negative trait in someone there is something to search within yourself. People also upset and treated me not nicely a lot and in every event I spotted something within myself. But definitely, without learning Torah and doing Mitzvos (especially Ahavas Yosroel) and giving spiritual Tzedakah is it almost impossible to change.
(7/20/2015 12:58:42 AM)
157
please cut out the drama and grow up already!
If you truly felt you were dressed appropriately, no one could make you cry by saying you are not.
Only if deep in your soul you know that the little slit, the lowish neck-line or the detailing that overly emphasizes part of your body, only then, when someone points out that you can only fool a fool, only then, when the charade is over, will you cry.
And now, you want pity so you claim the lady said "Hashem doesn't like you," she said quietly. "He's going to punish you for what you are." Really? Is that a direct quote or is that also part of the drama?
You are Hashem's precious daughter. He loves you. Maybe not your actions, but He loves you. It's you who loves yourself more than you love your Father.
You know what is right. There is only one Torah. Cleave to it. because there is no short cut, and your claim that "Through ***positive religious experiences*** (sic), I've become open to making ***religious choices*** that I never thought I would have been open to." is so pathetic. Positive religious experiences bring you closer to Hashem, they don't lead to irreligious choices.
Remember that the haskalah/modern movement isn't not modern. It's just running away from Hashem and his Torah of Truth.
(7/20/2015 1:01:26 AM)
158
to 153 "Why"
because if you pick raisins out of your salad on shabbos, that's something only you have to answer to Hashem. It's as is you are drilling a hole in your canoe.
When you dress in an improper manner, you are drilling a hole in the vessel that keeps us all afloat. You potentially cause EVERYONE who sees you to sin, and you CHASE away the Shechina out of our community. You cause damage to Jews all around the world.
(7/20/2015 1:05:46 AM)
159
truth is BOTH parties are wrong=its a LOSE-LOSE sitch & tznius police?
no such concept.
its SAPD (shulchon oruch police dept)

the remedy here is obviously NOT say/feel negative.
Both parties should learn halacha (with each other ? lol)

u should reacquaint urself with tzniyus laws.
she should learn Ahavas yisrael laws. gamarnu. finito la comedia. to be very clear= there are NO winners & neither are correct in their actions/speech

oh btw, if u cant handle the heat, then get out of the kitchen.
v"dal.........


(7/20/2015 4:04:47 AM)
160
phew
thats alot of comments! just my thoughts, Everyonw is on there own level, just bc u live in ch doesnt mean u were born in a frum family or a family that keeps tznius maybe the way this girl was dressed was good for her and at her own time she will grow in it by this lady telling her off turned her off and didnt help her grow one bit as we can tell from the article
(7/20/2015 6:30:26 AM)
161
157
Today's generation seems to feel that they don't have to take responsibility for their actions. And that when it is understood that when they are doing something that is not right, the best way to go about life is to BLAME OTHERS.
I would propose that the older woman who came toward the younger woman was trying to do it from a good place. It would appear that it did not come over well.
(7/20/2015 10:53:38 AM)
162
Suggestion
How about if you would post various things on tznius - said and written by the Rebbe, from Sichos and Igros, on a daily or weekly basis and this would prove the Rebbe's stand on this topic.
From the above it is quite obvious how the Rebbe felt about tznius in 5730! What would he have said today?
(7/20/2015 12:21:02 PM)
163
perfect retort
The minute this person with boundary issues put a hand on you for the 2nd time and told you what Hashem likes and doesn't like, you should have said "since you seem to have a direct line to Hashem and he told you he doesn't like me, did he also tell you when exactly Moshiach is coming???"
(7/20/2015 12:27:12 PM)
164
How to open the topic in a nice way?
I would love to see some posts (or a whole new article) on how to open the topic of tznius in a nice way. I live in a non-Chabad community where most of the women don't even cover their hair after marriage, and shortly after bat mitzvah the girls start showing up in shul with cleavage and above-the-knee skirts. This is NOT like a Chabad House situation, these are people who keep kosher and mostly keep Shabbos. It hurts me so much to see them cheapening themselves. The mothers don't set an example for the girls, many also show cleavage and above-the-knee skirts, and the last couple of years there is a fashion where the skirt becomes narrower below the hips, it's horrible. I don't say anything because I don't know how to say something that will be positively received, remember there is also a mitzvah not to say something if you know the person will not listen, but honestly the situation is a big reason I rarely go to shul any more.
(7/20/2015 12:30:13 PM)
165
Igros/Sichos #162
Yes, Thank you! Chazak v'ametz, halevai we should see that on your home page!

Can COL be the one to initiate it?
There is plenty around now that has been translated into English and ready to be shared.
(7/20/2015 11:14:37 PM)
166
mental illness
I wish I had the time to read all the comments right now, but I don't. So I hope I'm not reiterating something mentioned already.

A person who is mentally healthy, extremely religious or not, would not accost you in this way. This is an example of a mentally ill person who has lost her ability to control herself. I say this not in a derogatory manner, but because it is important that we see this for what it is. If anything, we can feel sadness for a human being who undoubtedly has multiple dysfunctional aspects in her life. Pity the people who must interact with her regularly.

Anyone, ANYONE, who would brazenly accost a stranger to reprimand them FOR ANY REASON OTHER THAN CAUSING HARM TO SOMEONE ELSE, is unquestionably mentally ill. They do not represent those of us who are very frum but whose faculties are intact. Please, never, EVER allow yourself to be hurt by a person who is challenged in this way.
And we must thank G-d every day that we are not that lonely person imprisoned in their own unhappy mind.
(7/21/2015 12:14:00 AM)
167
As quoted from a letter of The Rebbe in comment 71
#164

When the yetzer hora wants something, anything which successfully prevents the yh from achieving it the yh will try to discourage. This includes making a show of being upset to discourage a person who is bringing out an affect the yh doesn't want.

Upsetting someone's yh is a sign that what is being done is effectual. Sometimes the yh tries to use false "chochmoh" to discourage someone from causing an affect, like using Torah arguments such as Ahavas Yisroel even though they don't apply since affecting someone not following their yh but rather to follow their YT is Ahavas Yisroel.


Confront them say what needs to be said in whatever tone or language it needs to be said in and move on without giving them an opportunity to challenge you and/or undermine any false "challenge" they may attempt.

It is acceptable to make a commotion in the rebuke given the person is making a commotion of immodesty embarrassing their self, even if they all do so together.

Someone who is immodest is burning in fire. Dump water on their heads if you have to.

If it upsets their yetzer hora you are on the right track.

Remember, no one wants to be rebuked, especially in public, and especially when they want to fit in, so you can be sure is only to prevent uncomfortable and undesirable rebuke people will listen. Most of the time it is only because they get away with immodesty without objection or a scene that many conduct them selves wantonly immodest.

They are weak people so it is easy to sway them. Look how easy a job the yh had.

- Hatzlochoh Raboh.
(7/21/2015 1:17:22 AM)
168
Opinon 4U
Don't worry or fear about tznius police.
You must think, worry and fear about Hashem- shamaim.
(7/21/2015 2:00:45 PM)
169
Oy Vey!
Honestly, I think there are at least a dozen sides to this story and about 1000 different scenarios that could have played out.

One such example. Myself at 14 years old. I grew up not orthodox but was spending Shabbos with some Orthodox friends and had a grand total of ONE tznius skirt. It was denim but went past my knees. Not something one wears on Shabbat and I certainly wouldn't now. When I walked into shul, I was told by some woman that I was a disgrace and that I should be ashamed of myself wearing denim in shul on Shabbos. It was only when my friend stepped up and told her that I only had the one skirt because I wasn't religious did she even realize the impact of what she had said. Honestly, I would have walked out right then and there, never to return to a shul and certainly not becoming Baalat Teshuva.

It could have been that the woman in question was wearing clothing that was halachically ok but the specific community holds higher standards... or that she wore the most tzniut thing in her closet because she is on a different point in her yiddishkeit.

It could have been a case where the woman coming over was trying to be helpful but was greatly missing any tact or knowledge of how her words would affect the other.

It isn't our place to judge! It isn't our place to say which scenario is correct either! Yes, the Rebbe said that every woman should dress tzniusdik but he also said that every man should put on Tefillin. Do we condemn every man who doesn't or do we encourage them to... just for today and leave tomorrow as another day? Every mitzvah is precious and important! I agree wholeheartedly! But we need tact and appreciation for those who (to quote a Chabad Rebbetzin that helped me a lot over the years) "isn't quite there yet in their yiddishkeit".

To every one commenting about how the person should have dressed more Tzniusdik, the Rebbe has every child learn 12 pesukim. You may want to relearn the one that says "VE-O-HAVTO LE-REI-ACHO KO-MO-CHO RA'BI AKIVO OMER ZEH KLOL GODOL BA-TORAH."

To the woman who posted this article, do not take one woman's comment as a reason to not grow in your yiddishkeit. We all have places we can grow.
(7/22/2015 2:04:26 PM)
170
It happened to me too
I am considered to dress tsniusdig. Nevertheless, someone came over to me and said, "I don't know if you are aware but your shirt is see through". Another time it was a comment on my back neckline being open or that the slits should be sewn down properly. It made me more conscious but didn't bring 100% correction.
Unfortunately, when faced with illness, it made me face and address my shortcomings. I believe that since every day I hear of someone becoming sick , is due to the lack of tznius (which brings opposite of brochos). Perhaps my tsnius imperfection results in other people becoming sick and more recently myself. I made a hachlota to improve on my tsnius, even at home, if I will become better as a result.
Thank G-D, I became well and decided to publicize the results of taking on the hachlota to dress more tzniusdig.
(5/5/2017 12:36:49 AM)
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