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Thursday, 27 Adar I, 5784
  |  March 7, 2024

No Romance in Frum Dating?

Prominent psychologist Michael J. Salamon says a lack of dating in the Orthodox community is the cause of marriage problems. "Some have suggested that, in the Orthodox world, we simply do not believe in romance." Full Story

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chinuch and parenting and encouragement to ...
November 1, 2017 9:09 am

we live in an age where we need to stop and become more present to ourselves, our family and community. when we become more conscious of ourselves, we communicate that to our outer world and would therefore by default find your life going in the direction you (consciously) chose. We have more power than we realize and we need to empower our children to make conscious choices. Hear how this would improve communication, marriage, lives?

Shallow
September 21, 2014 12:35 am

I find that this generation is insanely shallow. Like was mentioned instead of finding a soul mate many are looking either for a trophy wife or guy that will support their needs. Relationship comes second. The sad part is they don’t even see this. They think they are being more realistic in their needs.
So sad. so many amazing girls out there that are being ignored because they are not a size 2!!
Your loss boys.

What problems?
August 10, 2014 9:47 pm

For Dr. Solomon’s assertion to be correct, there would need to be a significantly larger number of failed marriages in our community. That seems not to be the case.

Rather, a shared ideal of allowing the presence of Hashem in our homes is the most important ingredient.

#26 and #33
September 1, 2011 1:54 pm

How can you say only 3 dates? No one here has done this for years. Couples DO take enough time. They meet on average 15 times.
Ok, that ought to be enough to make a decision.
Mr. Salomon is not correct to say that mingling before marriage in a casual way will solve our problems.

A Mommy
June 5, 2011 1:17 am

what’s wrong with allowing our children to get to know their (possibly) future spouses longer than a handful of dates? They might be married FOREVER. There would be a lot less broken engagements, seriously troubled marriages, and divorces if we allowed the kids to really get to know each other. If we trust that they are mature enough to marry, they should be trusted to date appropriately.

THE ARTICLE IS NOT ABOUT LUBAVITCH
October 17, 2009 10:14 pm

Clearly this is a five-towns professional making a broad statement about the frum community – ranging from Chassidish to Moderdox. As Lubavitchers we do have the upper hand in that we have exposure to the world and thereby to all types of people and attitudes. It’s not like we have our heads in the sand as to some other over-sheltered, provincial communities. And we can and do have this familiarity with the world while maintaining our system of “kosher” shidduchim. As for the “HAYMISHE” in W’burg/Monroe/BPark…My father said that HIS dad, who remembered pre-war Hasidic Europe/Poland had never see the… Read more »

Author is correct...
October 13, 2009 1:16 pm

We don’t give ourselves or the one we are going out with a chance. That doesn’t mean one has to give up on tznius measures, rather one should try to be patient and understanding and give themselves a chance to get to know the other person , if they enjoy just talking and spending time together without the pressure of .. will he be a good provider, does he or doesn’t do this or that …. Sometimes we make snap judgements that come back to nag at us … maybe we should given that person the benifit of the doubt… Read more »

Don't agree
May 21, 2009 4:05 am

The author makes many good points, but the overall principle is wrong.

Lubavitcher boys and girls in my experience do not experience severe stage fright on dates, and the solution to marriage problems is not to mingle as singles.

A great idea for em Bachurs.
May 20, 2009 6:33 am

Some Guys need to stop being so judgmental and high and need to TREAT A GIRL RIGHT! I agree with #2

Wake up and be a HUMAN BEING! A man treating a WOMAN! The inanimate,cold,judgmental approach will never lead you into love, let alone a relationship!

another idea
May 17, 2009 1:05 pm

I don’t agree with this guy, but I think it would be very beneficial for kids growing up in our community to see closeness between their parents. Nothing inappropriate, but all those nuances that can be communicated non verbally or physically, warmth, closeness, appreciation and respect. Aside from this making them happier children they will also learn that they don’t need to look elsewhere for romance, it may be private, but it’s there.

a psychologically inclined female
May 17, 2009 11:59 am

to #25, great advice! i so want to pop this bubble but i need some ideas for questions to ask my parents. What do you think i should start with? thanks for reaching out to what us girls really needed.

#25
May 17, 2009 11:13 am

you are sooo naive, poor thing.Yes of course your relationships with many in your life will influence of later relationships but there are many variables and factors.For one thing,your spouse is not the family of origin but comes from his own sets of experiences. There are no formulas per se although similar values, goals etc make a huge difference to the success of a relationship.Walking and asking something shocking is actually very SILLY and shows some immaturity.Growth and many years help shape the relationships but if you have personality issues, it’s going to follow you in many relationships-friendships, marital, with… Read more »

from a lubavitch teenage girl with a knack for psychology
May 17, 2009 7:23 am

the shidduch system is not wrong the only thing that could be causing theses problems is the, upbringing of theses people (there is always exceptions to the rule) with theses problems 1. if you develop a good relationship with the opposite gender in ur family you wont have any problems felling uncomfortable talking with your date (even though there will still be techniques u’ll have to learn for this new type of relation ship i.e. marriage relationship) 2. if you had a healthy open relationship with ur parents throughout your childhood/ teenage years hopefully then they helped you mature your… Read more »

please read
May 17, 2009 2:23 am

Our system is fine for many, but like everything else in this world, it isn’t perfect. I will go so far and suggest that it is detrimental to some. Why? Our educational systems encourage humility and contentment with the status quo. As such, it is no surprise that many daters, still freshly out of the system, with zero experience about real life and relationships with the opposite gender (“segregation”), proceed into “making (what is supposed to be a life-long) decision, even though they are not always aware of the underlying cognitive processes involved”. Not everyone has as strongly defined a… Read more »

Article to vague
May 17, 2009 12:58 am

You have to wonder about a writer who can’t say exactly what he means. There are too many vague, run-on ideas to quote. I’ll quote two related ones: “Increasingly, in virtually all shades of orthodoxy, both men and women are segregated from one another even when it is unwarranted.” Would you tell us please when it is warranted for frum singles to be mingling? Here is the last sentence: “Let us allow young adults to find one another so they might develop the friendship so necessary to a successful marriage.” Are you suggesting that frum people do away with the… Read more »

and may i add.....
May 17, 2009 12:16 am

the shidduch system years back was not the same as it was today. in addition…i thought i was nuts, because we took our time- or rather, he let me take my time, even tho he was ready long before me. i debated a lot- we were going for a few months (yes, months) before getting engaged. but i thought i was nuts bc everyone else was getting engaged after a week…
and my mother didnt push- she asked me what i wanted.

and yes, were chabad.

you all missed the point
May 17, 2009 12:11 am

the point is not that kids should mingle. the point is that dating should not be limited to five dates of two hours each, that people should not be pushed to marry before they feel ready, and that the other gender should not be made out to be monstrocities.

Really surprised!
May 16, 2009 8:29 pm

I don’t really understand why is this article posted here. We all know that the secular world sees the shidduch system as strange and over-aged, it doesn’t mean that we have to publish on this website all the opinions that are voiced everywhere. This author implies that we should mingle boys and girls before they get married. As much as the world has changed, and how our own exposure to it has increased, it doesn’t mean that we should give up on our ways, and compromise our beliefs. About the low rate of orthodox marriages, one of the reasons may… Read more »

Frum dating works
May 16, 2009 7:28 pm

Our style of dating works best with the minimum of influences from the secular world. While the potential for romance is hinted at during the dating process, real romance, deep love, and lasting friendship is cultivated after marriage.

To 13
May 16, 2009 6:56 pm

Your totally right!

to # 11
May 16, 2009 5:37 pm

Nonsense! Dating a few years does nothing. Even after being married several years, you’re still learning things about the other person you never knew. No matter how long you date you will never know the other person as much as you want and try.

Divorce Rate
May 16, 2009 4:57 pm

to #12 Part of the reason for the low divorce rate is: 1. Stigma 2. The wife has no real work skills and thus has no way to adequately support herself and 8 kids so see puts up with a lousy marriage. 3. We simply have more in common with each other which leaves less room for conflict. Think about things like religion and schooling of kids. These are non issues for us as we agree on them from the get go. 4. Our notion of what is important in life and our lack of social opportunities, helps us stay… Read more »

parent
May 16, 2009 4:40 pm

Nothing is black and white.
We live in a global village; people are exposed to a confusing world, many options are offered up to our young people.
Rabbonim and Maspiim/os need to be trained to give young men and women with sensible guidance prior to entering the Shidduch Parash.
Parents need to stay very close to their children during this period of transformation.

Are you kidding me?????
May 16, 2009 3:14 pm

Thank G-d our children are protected and sheltered, having nothing to do with the opposite gender for most of their teenage lives. This is the best thing for raising happy, healthy children.
This give them room to grow and gain confidence in a proper way, without the drama and issues and distractions they would have to face in other situations.

Statistics also show that separate schools (non jewish) produce a very high percentage of successful adults. Obviously there is something to it…

The world Blueprint
May 16, 2009 3:11 pm

The Eibishter looked into the Troah and created the world. The Torah is the true manual of how a person should live not a Fellow of the American Psychological Association who can only observe the process but certainly does not know better than the Manual (the Torah)how a person should behave.

Mumbo Jumbo
May 16, 2009 3:10 pm

This is what every Mashpia goes through with their Mushpa, just becauee he through in alot of pycological mumbo jumbo doesnt mean its true. The divroce rate among frum is much less then among frei, and non jewsih, as long as you r intouch with a “competent and experienced” mashpia your dating life should succeed properly to the ultimate goal of marriage!

totally in agreement...
May 16, 2009 3:10 pm

Having been in the shidduch system for quite a few years now, I would definiitely say i tend to agree with his ideas.

Young girls who are just beginning to date have no clue how to relate to a guy, let alone actually get to know him.

Only after a few years of dating can a person be comfortable enough to really get to know the other person.

relevancy
May 16, 2009 5:26 am

why people are referring to ”a 2000 years old system??!!” no it’s not the same: we have cars,internet,phones, and many other things that didn’t exist just 20 years ago, we don’t live in the shtetl anymore and things HAVE CHANGED even if we do not want to change who we are and what we believe in,things around us do change. 2000 years ago boys and girls would go out in the fields on 15 of av to find a shidduch. what he did say was this: boys are totally clueless and ingrained with the hunt for many things in a… Read more »

Absolute nonsense!
May 15, 2009 11:23 pm

Unfortunately the opposite is true:
When you are close at a time when you should be distant then When you should be close you will be distant!

The Rebbe didn’t want the engaged couple to be photographed together vdai lmeivin.

balloni
May 15, 2009 11:15 pm

i am happily married 13years and went thru the shidduch system, VERY SERIOUSLY. Looked very much for Romance, Love, Chassidish, tall, good looking and guess what?
i got it!!

very well written
May 15, 2009 12:56 pm

I thinks there should be more venues in our community for singles to meet once they are of age

Why????
May 15, 2009 11:38 am

Why is this on a frum website?
As far as were concerned Torah knows best. Most shidduch related problems arise when we use the system inaurately.

Interesting idea
May 15, 2009 11:31 am

I personally believe that alot of people that date in the shidduch system are actually looking for many things in a marriage – Love and romance not being one of them (or maybe its way down on the bottom of the list)
What is the criteria for a “good shidduch?”
Lets see, money, Yichus, shlichus, status, looks…. the list goes on

Missed the point.
May 15, 2009 11:29 am

While it is true that there needs to be a physical connection and “understanding”, in reality, marriage is so complex that the real element holding the relationship together is something which is higher than a physical source.

Call me closed-minded, but only when we tap into the true source can a marriage last.

wow...
May 15, 2009 11:28 am

So basically this guy is saying that what worked for thousands of years for many many happy marriages “just doesnt work?”
Kind of chutzpah-dik, I would say….

give to receive
May 15, 2009 11:18 am

“..we are left with young men and women who feel no need to even try to get to know anyone else. Many of our young men and women have placed themselves on a pedestal and want to marry someone who can keep them there, even in financially troubling times. The goal then is not a warm, affectionate, supportive relationship but a selfish, egocentric one..”

It seems older guys particularly depict and espouse such behavior!! Wake up and be a HUMAN BEING! A man treating a WOMAN! The inanimate,cold,judgmental approach will never lead you into love, let alone a relationship!

shmuly
May 15, 2009 10:18 am

Doesn’t sound like Dr. Salamon (with all due respect) has the frum perspective of this topic. Unless I’m mistaken, he seems to be implying that Jewish boys and girls should mingle even before they are ready to get married. Not exactly a frum approach to male\female relationship.

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