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May 13, 2009
Rabbi Klein Talks to Friend
Rabbi Menashe Klein, who caused a stir by condemning the messianics who believe the Lubavitcher Rebbe is alive, has invited his friend Rabbi Noach Fox of Crown Heights to his home to discuss the matter. By COLlive reporter
Rabbi Menashe Klein has invited a Lubavitch friend to his home in Israel following the stir he caused by condemning the messianics who believe the Lubavitcher Rebbe is alive.
Klein, Rabbi of the Ungar community and Rosh Yeshiva of Bais Shearim in Boro Park, in his most recent Halachic volume called to "silence and stop the proclamations (that are) a disgrace to the Rebbe of blessed memory."
Reported first on COLlive, the ruling was heatedly debated in over 200 comments and on other Jewish websites. Some supported, others were outraged by the statement.
A week after the outburst, Rabbi Klein has received Rabbi Noach Fox, a Crown Heights entrepreneur who was an unofficial liaison between the Rebbe and haredi rabbis.
"The Rebbe told me at a Yechidus that I should not stop printing Halacha rulings," Klein told Fox, a member of Agudas Harabonim - Union of Orthodox Rabbis of the United States and Canada.
At the meeting, which took place Tuesday and was also attended by Fox's cousin Chanania Zirkind, Klein said he merited to see the Previous Rebbe, Rabbi Yosef I. Schneerson.
Rabbi Klein is well versed in the teachings of the Rebbe, Rabbi Menachem M. Schneerson, and was shown many 'kiruvim' from him for over 50 years.
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Btw. is this Noach Fox a fair person or known to be someone who hates the Meshichisten?
In my opinion Rabbi Klein's piece sounds like he has a very poor knowledge (or was "led" to believe that) of what's truly going on in Lubavitch. Just because there are some fringe mishugoyim amongst the meshichisten etc and we all know who they are, and go about it in very rediculous ways, forcing it upon the rest etc. doesn't mean that everyone else who's less vocal is against the concept. Imagine, there are dozens of huge Yeshivos all over the world with literally hundreds of talmidim in each one that say Yechi with the endorsement of the Hanholas Hayeshivos (Brunoy alone for example has hundreds of beautiful talmidim, lomdim yirei shomayim l'sheim Ulitiferes)
Besides the SILENT MAJORITY who believe the Rebbe is Moshiach but keep it to themselves
Hamifursom Ein Tzrichin Raya, that the Rebbe said about his father in Law, the Previous Rebbe, after he passed away, that he will be Moshiach Tzidkeinu, the Rebbe stated numerous times that what a Rebbe says about another Rebbe he paskens on himself, and therefore the chassidim are in full "good standing" to say the same about him and nobody has the right to criticize other yidden for following what their Rebbe taught them.
Daas Torah dictates that if you have a shaila in Halacha or Torah & Mitzvos you go to a Rov, this is the mesora of Yidden, well, the late AV BEIS DIN Rabbi Marlow A"H endorsed ther saying of Yechi and so does the present Beis Din by the mere fact that they participate in the asifos in 770 and have never ever made a condemnation to the concept of merely saying Yechi.
Rabbi Klein was unfortunately misinformed as he has attacked the entire Lubavitch and accused Man Malki Rabonon of Apikorses.
Enough mikoros in Torah support it starting from the Rebbe himself about his FIL, the Tshunubler about the Besht, the Abarbanel, Rashi in Sanhedrin, the Yerushalmi that HU DOVID B'atzmo and more. THIS DIVISIVENESS MUST STOP.
Rabbi Klein doesn't realize that his "friendship" with the Rebbe is in question when he makes such pesokim on his chassidim. Itruly believe it's not his fault just the one's "guiding his hand"
So in essence he attacked all of Lubavitch!!!
HIS CHOICE TO MEET WITH A CONVENIENT CONTACT RATHER THAN SOMEONE WHO IS WELL VERSED IN THE SUBJECT AT HAND, HM! LTES JUST SAY THAT IT IS VERY SUSPICIOUS!
ONE WHO SEEKS THE TRUTH, DOSENT CHOOSE A SYMBOLIC PUPPET
BUT IS BRAVE ENOUGH TO MEET WITH THOSE WITHIN CHABAD WHO ARE BOTH MESHICHIST AND SCHOLARLY.
LETS SEE IF HE IS BRAVE ENOUGH TO INVITE ONE OF THE FOLLOWING, RABBONIM, MASHPYIM:
RABBI SHLOMO MAJESKY
RABBI MANGEL
RABBI BLUMING
RABBI BELL
RABBI CHARITONOW
RABBI G. AVTZON
RABBI MILLER
RABBI WAGNER
RABBI TUREN
RABBI KORF
RABBI KALMENSON
RABBI BUTMAN
RABBI ASHKENAZI
RABBI ULMAN
RABBI WOLFSON
RABBI COHEN
RABBI RASKIN
RABBI WOLF
EVEN RABBI I SCHOCHET
the above lists esteemed rabbonim, dayanim, and scholars who are all well versed on the torah sources pertaining to this matter, and when confronted with a straight forward question, "does the belief in the rebbe as moshiach have support from daas torah?" the answer (more or less vocal) yes, when the question of is there a torah president for the belief that the rebbe is alive despite the appearance of death, the answer again is yes (pointing to many examples through out the torah, ranging from the dor hamidbor's convincing appearance of moshe's death, to the rebbe's take on yakov avinu, and a number of characters described in talmud bavli. )
the sad reality is that rabbi k, may be well versed in routine halachic questions, but not very well steeped in other subjects which do not frequent his expertise.
MOST OF YOU ARE MISSING 1 IMPORTANT THING!!!
JEWS FOLLOW DAAS TORAH,
TO REB MENASHEH "hakotton"
and all u posting your opinions:
PLEASE PLEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAASE!
LEARN THE "TORAH-SOURCES" ON THE SUBJECT
(for a chossid: include Sichos NUN ALEF+)
turn down your fear of the truth!!
all the sources paint a very straight forward picture!
the Rebbeh is in a state of "NICHSEH" as predicted in numerous sources, and this piriod of Galus is the Last stance before the stage of "Chizer-VNisgaleh"
do the research!!!!!!
perhaps b/c of ppl like R M Klein, the Rebbeh insisted that HIS chasidim all KNOW THE SUBJECT "INYANE GELUA" VERY WELL
he may be very learned in general, yet any 13yr old Brinwa Talmid can wipe the floor with these "gedolim re Inyonei moshiach vGeula!!
its actually quite entertainnig to watch a debate between a Lubavitcher bochur, and any "learned snag"!! lol
is it a shock to u, that a 90 yr old, is being fed info by "anti-chabad" ppl with an agenda,?
learn some history,
IS HE GREATER THAN THE VILNA GAON, who was ALSO GIVEN SLANTED REPORTS ABOUT THE "BAAL HATANYA"
BTW
DOES ANYONE REMEMBER WHAT IT SAYS ABOUT THE SIGNS OF MOSHIACH
THAT BIG GEONIM WILL BE THE ONES TO "RESIST HIM"
CHERFU IKVOS MESHICHECHO"!!!
when a mishichist asked him to proove that moshiach cant be "min hameisim" he squirmed!!!!!
then the m. asked, did you ever find a makor that actually predicts that noshiach will be NISGALEH, NICHSEH, CHOIZER VNISGALEH? ...again nisht gelaint!! ...he never read that either!!!
MY FRIENDS THIS IS A MAN, WHO KNOWS VERY VERY LITTLE on the subject!
any 8th grader in OT. can STUMP this self proclaimed ONOV
HIS INSIDE CIRCLE JUST SUCEEDED TO EXPOSE AND HUMILIATE HIS GADLUS ON THE WORLD STAGE
try this,
(its lots of FUN!!)
find any Snag Posek, Godol etc
ask the following questions:
1) is there a Makor in Daas Torah that allows Moshiach min hameisim?
2) is there a Makor in Daas Torah that allows a convincing appearance of Death, yet in fact was a test (in faith of Moshe's words)?
3) Is there a Makor,,, that right before Moshiach comes, he will be resisted by BIG BIG TALMIDEI CHACHOMIM?
4) is there a Makor... that Nosi = Moshiach,
5) is there a Makor... Moshiach's body will be hidden for a Darker period of galus After annoucing the Geula, yet things for a while get worse (like by Moshe Rabeinu)
6) Has the Rebbeh ever predicted an event that did not come to pass?
7) Hasent the Rebbeh proclaimed, the last generation of Galus and the first...
8) Hasent the Vilna Gaon been MISLEAD by his own close Talmidim, is it possible that your own close circle, Simplistically mixed up the entire Lubavitch moshiach Phenomenon into a very distorted and Factually wron picture?
the List goes on , u get the idea,
these ppls mistake is to RUSH TO CONCLUSIONS before doing due diligent research.
i have found, that the more one knows on the subject, the less absurd the "craizies" become!!
similar to the Leviyim in the midbar vdal
1) kuntres beis rabbinu shebbovel,
"http://www.torah4blind.org/hebrew/dm48a.pdf"
PRBLEM SOLVED!!
DO WHAT THE REBBEH BEGED US TO, over and over and over!!!
"LEARN INYONEI GEULAH UMOSHIACH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
=...YOU WILL BE SHOCKED!! TO DISCOVER WHAT TORAH SORCES ACTUALLY SAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
....THAT YOU WOULD HAVE NEVER EXPECTED OR KNOWN ABOUT IF YOU ARE JUST A MAIN STREAM GODEL, learnining typical day to day nigleh!
WHO NEVER LERNED INYONEI GEULAH!!
The Rebbe explains how it is possible for this to happen (R Klein brings it in the Tshuva): It says that there will be techiya for certain tzaddikim BEFORE Moshiach comes. If the Frierdiker Rebbe gets up in this techiya, he'll be ALIVE, then he can be Moshiach.
From this it's obvious that the Rebbe NEVER believed that the Frierdiker Rebbe IS Moshiach, just that he COULD (and hopefully will) be.
The difference (nafka mina) is obvious: are you going against Halacha or not? Saying a that a person who passed away is Moshiach is AGAINST HALACHA! That's why the Rebbe NEVER said his father in law IS Moshiach (I'd openly admit my mistake if anyone can show me where the Rebbe says such a thing).
Now, who here wants to be a bigger Chossid than the Rebbe himself??????
however, ,,, however
also
your headline was mileading. vedal
You can be the greatest talmid chacham on the planet, but if you dont know something you can still be wrong!!
clearly R.Klein is a great scholar in most day-to-day halachic issues, yet has probably less knowledge on this subject than those who follow the rebbe's request, TO LEARN LEAR LEARN "INYONEI GEULA UMOSHIACH" daily
mah tov borabim!! (i wonder why)
UNLESS YOU ARE NOT INTERESTED IN RE-CONSIDERING YOUR ENTIRE BELIEF SYSTEM!!
even when compared to the litvish gedolim,
case in point R. Miller of Toronto (posek) was forced to admit in public that the belife of moshiach min hameisim is within the pail of Jewish orthodoxy!!
and was forced to publicly retract his venomous statement against chabad, calling its belief in the Rebbeh as moshiach as baseless and Apikursus!
many so called gedolim, were similarly forced to retract their impulsive statements which were based on HERGESH not Torah-sources!!
i predict that soon, a retraction from this Rabbi too is on its way, as he is inundated with numerous torah sources backing and supporting the mesianist in chabad!!
R Majesky's collection of sources, is a must read!!
1. As pointed out above, if he contends that the Moshiach must, a s a condition precedent be a King (Melech) in Eretz Yisroel, then Moshiach can never ch'v come, a s how can a king be proclaimed until after the Geula in light of the 3 shavous in Kesuvos?
2. He is obviously saying that someone must be appointed a Rebbe as successor, by comparing it to Moshe Rabbenu, who apppointed Yehushua; this comparison is not valid, as the Rebbe clealy left no instructions for an 8th Rebbe- and it is clear that an 8th Rebbe was never contemplated by the Rebbe- so if rav Klein has any complaints- he should addrees them to the Rebbe.
3. It is interesting that he says that Yaakov Avonu was not in the catatgory of chaim after the kevurah- when the Bechaya on P' Vayechi, says the opposite- "al pi Kabbalah" that Yaakov avonu was given a new body and he is alive and helps Jews all over the world.
Obviously, Chassidus has more to say about this, but Rav Klein based his opinion on non-Chassidic sources.
I am sure that Rav Klein is sincere in what he wrote, and I hope that people will refrain from attacking him, but if someone can show him some of the Rebbe's maamorim- he may modify his opinion.
Truly, this is another obstacle in the path- which we will overcome.
With all due respect to the Rov, it is not fair to publish such opinions and/or statements unless one is familiar with the Rebbe's Sichos and Maamarim.
Like Rabbi D. Berger who bashed the Rebbe and Lubavitch over and over, Rov Klein's opinions appear to reflect a lack of knowledge of the Rebbe's teachings over the 40 plus years of his leadership.
If only those who criticize would learn FIRST, they would understand the reasons WHY Lubavitchers believe the way we do, and WHY we can still believe in the Rebbe's valid candidacy as Moshiach Tzidkenu.
And to the Mishuchistin who scream and wave flags, who use loud, obnoxious behavior, who walk around their neighborhoods with smashed dirty hats, and torn kapotes, you should be aware that you are making a BIG chilul Hashem in the Rebbe's name. The Rebbe wanted his chassidim to be "together" dressing and behaving in a menchliche way. Please reconsider your behavior and "clean up" your act!
I find it interesting how these news sites jump to make sensational headlines without fully understanding the content that they are publishing!
But b'ikar he attacks the Yechi which means diferent things to different chassidim but hatzad hashoveh to those who say it or say it silently before Hamapil is that Divrei Tzadikim kayamim Load and that the Rebbe and his words will in the end come true namely that the Rebbe of the Dor is the Moshiach of the Dor and I don't think Rabbi Klein was well prepped before he wrote his Torah because he sounds like he thinks it's only a fringe minority that can't get over the fact that the Rebbe is not the Manhig anymore but the rest are ready for a new pick.
And those in Lubavitch who disagree with Yechi in totality is mainly because they think it is a chilul Hashem and no need to air your personal hergesh to the public and some extreme leftys will go so far (R"L) as to even lie that they don't believe the Rebbe could be Moshiach in order to clear the name of Lubavitch. But deep down they too believe the Rebbe is Moshiach and will lead us as Melech Hamoshiach to the Geulah Shleimah, except for perhaps a few gor gor extreme neshomos (the vocal ones who probably will disagree with this post) who will run with this at all costs even to somehow dismiss the sicha of Breishis 5746 that nosi doreinu is moshiach tzidkeinu, either to distort it to mean "moshiach of the dor" (which can't be because the Rebbe says there clearly that ich vel nisht hoben kein faribel if people teitch it kipshuto) or to say it only applies to a living nosi, in that case Rabbi Klein's right it's time for them to make elections...
SO HE MAY KNOW ALOT OF TORAH, DOSENT MEAN HE KNOWS ALL THE RELEVANT MAREH MEKOMOS, ON THIS UNCOMMON HALACHAC SUBJECT!!
DO WHAT THE REBBEH BEGED US TO, "LEARN INYONEI GEULAH UMOSHIACH, AND YOU WILL BE SHOCKED TO DISCOVER WHAT TORAH SORCES ACTUALLY SAY, THAT YOU WOULD HAVE NEVER EXPECTED OR KNOWN ABOUT IF YOU ARE JUST A MAIN STREAM GODEL, WHO NEVER LERNED INYONEI GEULAH!!
Meshichists are saying loudly what many Lubavitchers believe silently. And I know what I mean. I study in a officially non-Meshichist Yeshivah. There is no reference of the Messiaship of the Rebbe and Shabbos morning office is attendent by a majority of Baalei T'shuvah. But I can attest that nearly every Motzei Shabbos, when there are in the Shul only Bachurim, they are singing Yechi (even non-Meshichists Bachurim). And I have no problem with that. I respect Meshichists who study Torah and have good behavior. Stop with "Meshichists don't study Torah, Meshichists are violents, and so on" We knoxw who are the disturbing elements among Meshichists. And they are a minority. I personnaly know many kindly Meshichists and even in Brunoy. We all knowx that the officials of Chabad who are almost all lo-Meshichists don't proclaim Yechi or the Messiaship of the Rebbe because of money interests (many people will cease to give money to Chabad because of this). And that's the truth. Mitnagdim are attacking all Chabad wheither Meshichists or lo-Meshichists. We are a big family and most Mitnagdim are jalous of Chabad's successes. To Mitnagdim, they will reproach their belief in the Rebbe Messiaship. To lo-Meshichists, they will have reproach for those going to the Ohel, and so on. Stop with all this. For Mitnagdim, we are all in the same bag. We are all Rebbe's Chassidim and the Rebbe needs every one of us. Many Jews came closer to Torah and Mitzvos through Meshichists without becoming themselves Meshichists (and I know many in this case). It is true that some Meshichists are not bringing Jews closer to Torah and Mitzvos because of their behavior, but there are many Meshichists with examplary behavior whose sole mission is proclaiming Torah and only Torah. And don't believe that lo-Meshichists are all perfect. So on some areas, lo-Meshichists are doing better job, but we must also recognize that in some other areas, Meshichists are doing better job. So, we are all Rebbe's Chassidim. We all have something to do to fulfill all Rebbe's wishes, and we need everyone. Don't forget : they are attacking ALL Chabad and not a part of Chabad. All this fight among Chabad is very sad. And sometime, the most virulent Mitnagdim are not outside but inside of Chabad. And it's sad, very sad. Stop this please.
We Want Moshiach Now or Yechi, we all love the Rebbe, we all serve the Rebbe, we all believe in Mosh!iach and Geulah, Bekarov Mamash!
when i've asked him this exact question,
his answer surprised my preconceptions of his (supposed) view:
His answer was SIMPLE AND STREIGHT FORWARD!
Halacha allows for it
and Chasidus (sichos) are Mechyev it, = Require it as a natural concussion!!
do you know perhaps question Reb Yoel Kahan's Authoritativeness, or do you know a more competent mind (hand-picked by the Rebbeh) to understand the Rebbe's sichos??
to be sure, he does reject the "HOW" the untactful approach of the few but VOCAL crazies who's actions TARNISH not only the NORMAL mishichistim but the Rebbe's kavod as well!
i am humble enough to trust Reb Yoel's superior judgment re Daas Torah and Chasidus!
i recommend you start a dailky kvius in the rebbe's sichos nun alef nun beis, good luck!
chabad would not be divided on this subject
the only devide would be HOW BEST TO EXPUNGE the genuinly meshuga ppl who MISREPRESNT THE VAST MAJORITY OF MAINSTREAM MESHIUCHISTIM
i write my comments as a Litfak with close ties to chabad for over two decades, and i've attended many of the rebbeh's droshos, no gadol even comes close to the Rebbeh's Gadlus and Geonus!
(even mishichistim are anti-craziness)
i have studied with a WORLD FAMOUS (self proclaimed anti mishichist)
his name is Rabbi Manis Friedman (beis chanah)
although he says one thing to the secular velt, one on one he whole-heartedly admits (in private) his messianic beliefs, he claims that they stem from chasidus and sichos and less from nigleh, yet not contedicted by halacha!
soo for a chossid of the rebbeh, we each ought to find a personal rav, steeped in chasidus and nigleh, sichos etc and be sure he feels free to speak his mind
do u know of one godol who was never tricked, who never made a mistake!
besides he was mistreated be a few mishiguyim in 770 about 10 years ago, and he may still be hurt!!
chabad accepts all kinds of ppl!! even mishiguyim who wish to dress chabad and embarrass the normal mishichistim
to LUMP together all yechi amd Meshichistim as he does (and even the OHEL)
it goes to prove how MISINFORMED he is about the facts on the ground,
his comments are the biggest evidence of his "IRRELEVANCE" and how misinformed and out of touch he is (perhaps thanks to his inner circle of chabad-lovers)
let him get to know some of our "mishichist" rabonim personally before making sweeping generalizations!!
let him her the arguments etc...
unfortunately HE HAS TURNED DOWN all attempts the last 5 years!!
what is HE afraid of??!
when he came to 770 after gimel tamuz 2 bachurim, stumped him silent and left him flustered! HE HAS CLEARLY NOT GOTTEN OVER THAT SINCE!
cut him some slack!! please! hes like really old! he;s surrounded by sonei-mishichistim feeding him one big jumble of info, what do you expect???
leave the Rabbi alone
again, NO BODY IS PERFECT, WE ARE ALL ENTITLED TO MAKE A MISTAKE ONCE IN A WHILE, soo get over it, and appreciate all the nice things he wrote in the rest of the Sefer!!
ONLY A REBBEH CANT MAKE A MISTAKE, OTHERWISE HOW DO WE KNOW THAT MOSHE RABEINU WROTE THE TORAH 100%
why not send to him, a delegation of TALMIDEI CHACHOMIM, equiped with 1000 pages of Torah sources (that he probably never knew existed)
and HELP HIM GET BETTER INFORMED,
than we'll see which SNAGS or ANTIs are gloating
that what seems NUTS! is actually well backed by many torah sources
and surprise surprise!!
many gedolim are actually very "IGNORANT" of major amounts of INYANEI G'OOLAH...
NOT THEIR FAULT, NO ONE GODOL IS EXPERT ON EACH AND EVERY TOPIC IN TORAH
do what the Rebbeh ask of all his Chasidim! make a daily shiur in inyonei geula and moshiach!!
(I'm aware of the Rebbe's explanation of that Yerushalmi in Lk"s 35, l'fi shiyas Harambam, but that is not the opinion of the meforshim who explain it kipshuto, not like the Rambam and therefore a valid source and certainly not kfira ch"v.)
the rebbe screamed and even threatened to walk out on a farbrenegen when they wanted to sing that HE was the moshiach.
but that’s besides the point
we are dealing with AFTER gimel Tamuz
You can not ( well you can, but it very very dangerous) to announce and appoint someone that is no longer with us Bigasmisyus to be the Moshiach.
loook what’s it leading to
gevalt have some (a bisul) saichel
but shouldent he redirect some RABONEI LUBAVICH to the table?
dont get me wrong its a good first step!
but should be followed by a visit between RK and R.Majesky
We're not getting into how it got to the public, was it right or wrong, sanctioned by the Rebbe's shift in policy because of a new gilui hamoshiach or no shift at all, the fact is that people know that Lubavitch holds this belief, do you think the Rebbe would want you to lie to the world now and call it kfira? Do you think the Rebbe would want you to speak negatively about your fellow chassidim, that is clearly a chossid shoteh besides causing more divisiveness which clearly is making Lubavitch look bad and THIS VERY DIVISIVENESS ALONE IS BEING MIRACHEK MORE JEWS THAN THE WHOLE PIRSUM OF THE REBBE BEING MOSHIACH which you say the Rebbe told us to avoid!!
I don't see how you can teitch that the Rebbe is saying the Frierdiker Rebbe (or himself) is Moshiach, when he's clearly talking about nessi'im in general, not any one specifically.
Learn that sicha well and with an open mind. You'll see that the Rebbe clearly laid out how we're supposed to act and what we're supposed to believe right now.
From Rabbi Miller of Toronto you can't bring a valid proof. Since his interview with Mishpacha (when Belsky trashed Lubavitch), Miller privately started learning sichos and selected mamorim.
He is close with select Lubavitchers and is under their hashpaha. He has the greatest esteem for the Chabad Rov of Toronto.
However, he remains careful of what he says and acts in public - he holds a prominent position as a poisek in the Litvish / snag world.
So, from Miller there is no valid proof. Bring names of others!
But to you it obviously means that were in dor hashmini )-:
no
please tell me the truth - TRUTH
how old are you]??
EVER QUESTIONED YOUR MASHPIA THAT WE ARE DEALING WITH AFTER “GIMEL TAMUZ”?????
Stop, stop. Please stop listening to those that ( and I know its an old phrase) but are “hacking you a chinik"
learn torah, learn the rebbes sichos, and become your own mashpias,h not to those that are hacking. and if you feel they are hacking… you know what? ….they are hacking
genug shoin
we got the point. loz up
See the Pnei Moshe on the Yerushalmi, Brachos 17a, Perek 2 Mishnah 4
"If he is from the living, his name is Dovid; if he is from the deceased his name is Dovid." The Pnei Moshe explains: "If he is from the living, his name is Dovid; if he is from the deceased, HE IS DOVID HIMSELF."
The same teaching appears again in the Midrash Rabba on Eicha, 1:51. (see below)
Hey, has anyone put the Pnei Moshe in cheirem?
I direct you now to the discussion of Rav Popo's shaila in Sanhedrin (Bavli) 98b How could you say Dovid Acher, it says Veavdi Dovid nosi aleihem lolom. What was his hava amina in the question if not min hakomim bitchiya I am aware of the Rebbe's sicha to the contrary (as the Rebbe explains it l'shitas Harambam), however, the makshan certainly held meisaya kipshuto.
Has anyone thrown him out of the beis midrash?
See also Eicha Rabba 1:51, (regarding Melech Hamoshiach) "If he is from the living his name will be Dovid, and if he is from the dead he will be Dovid himself." The Ometz Yeshacha (for Hoshanah Rabba) says "the voice of Tzemach... who is Dovid himself." The Yefeh Anaf on Eicha Rabbah, 1:51, interprets that this concurs with the opinion that Moshiach's coming will be after the resurrection of the dead.
See also the Radak– Yichezkel 37:24 – And my servant Dovid will be King over them – Radak says it is referring to Melech Hamoshiach who will be called Dovid “OR “THIS IS A HINT TO TECHIYAS HAMEISIM”
See also Radak – Yirmiyah 30:9 – And they will serve Hashem their G-d and Dovid their King – Radak says: Perhaps this is said on Dovid Hamelech who will get up from the dirt at the time of Techiyas Hameisim”
READ THE LAST TEN COMMENTS AND THEN TELL ME IF WE GOT THE POINT!
EVIDENTLY NOT!!!!
Let's begin with (1):
When the Rambam says, "A king will arise..." he does not have in mind someone with the halachic status of king, someone with "dinei malchus." Dinei malchus can only be bestowed upon someone through a prophet and a Beis Din of 71 (Hilcos Melachim 1:3), and these do not yet exist. (In fact, if they did, we could simply inquire of the prophet as to whether an individual is Moshiach; we wouldn’t need the whole identification process established by the Rambam). Rather, he means a great leader, like Ben Koziva (Bar-Kochva), whom he refers to in the previous halacha as Ben Koziva HAMELECH, even though Ben Koziva did not posses dinei malchus. (The aforementioned—with the exception of the parenthetical remark--is not my own opinion, but has been stated by the Rebbe in the hosafos of volume 8 of Likkutei Sichos)
(2) and (3):
In Hilchos Melachim, the Rambam makes no mention of the need for Moshiach to be revealed in Eretz Yisroel. Neither is the performance of miracles a criteria for establishing Moshaich’s identity. Indeed, in the 3rd halacha of the chapter under discussion (Hilchos Melachim, chapter 11), the Rambam emphatically negates this notion: "Let it not enter your mind that the King Moshiach must perform signs or wonders...it is not so."
The discrepancy between the Yad and Igerres Teiman insofar as it concerns the revelation of Moshiach is well-known, and has been addressed long ago. The explanation offered by the Rebbe (I don't have it in front of me, but one can find it in Shaarei Geula) is that in Igerres Teiman the Rambam was addressing a unique case, and offered an opinion in view of the particular circumstances of that specific case.
(4):
Complete success is one of the criteria for Moshiach Vadai, not for Bechezkas Moshiach, as the Rambam says (ibid, halacha 4), "If he did [the functions listed previously], and SUCCEEDED…he is certainly Moshiach.” To qualify for Bechezkas Moshiach, he must simply be one who has truly undertaken the mission. In fact, Menoras Hamaor, in explaining this Rambam uses the terms "yachof" and "locheim" to indicate the present-tense -- i.e. an ongoing process. That is, if this individual is engaged in implementing these functions , he is presumed to be Moshiach.
(5) The Rebbe’s opinion—and R’ Menashe Klien is welcome to differ with the Rebbe’s opinion, but I suspect he wouldn’t if he knew what it is—is that these wars can be “milchamos shel shalom”—they can be fought in a peaceful manner. An entire discussion of this topic is beyond the scope of our present discussion, but suffice it to say that the point of these wars is to bring the world under the sovereignty of G-d. On Parshas Chayei Sara, 5752, the Rebbe stated that the one who is Bechezkas Moshiach has already successfully accomplished some of his activities. (In 5727, the Rebbe stated that the Moshiach of the generation is waging war against the Soviet regime. In Mishpatim 5752, the Rebbe directly attributes the fall of the Soviet regime to the Moshiach of the generation. Does this not constitute battling the wars of G-d? )
I welcome debate.
WHY ARE YOU SOO DISTURBED BY mr CAPS's POSTS?
ARE THEY TOO REPETITIOUS?
OR IS THERE SOMETHING ELSE TUGGING AT YOUR HEART?! HM? HM? I WOUNDER?
(let me guess, u don't yet have a kvius in inyonei moshiach... yet you have formed you pompous opinion and publisized it already to others, and perhaps you wish you had done your research before rendering your opinion
you should have included a more clear disclaimer that this is merely a fraction of the supportive mekoros, backing up "moshiach min hamesim" possobility
U GOTTA GIVE IT TO HIM (me) mr CAPS HITS THE NAIL ON THE HEAD! AT LEAST FOR A REBBE'S CHOSSID!
WHY ARE YOU SOO DISTURBED BY mr CAPS's POSTS?
ARE THEY TOO REPETITIOUS?
OR IS THERE SOMETHING ELSE TUGGING AT YOUR HEART?! HM? HM? I WOUNDER?
(let me guess, u don't yet have a kvius in inyonei moshiach... yet you have formed you pompous opinion and publisized it already to others, and perhaps you wish you had done your research before rendering your opinion
it only sounds like hacking to one who has not fallowed the rebbe's request to learn dilligentely inyonei geulah umoshiach including the rebbe's sichos (which the rebbe directely included as part and parcel of the limud of moshiach and geulah)
i like to consider myself an independent thinker, with daas torah as my guide,
that being said,
i am fairly impressed with the thrust of the comments, since they are very much "torah-centered" in nature!
if more "litvaks" were privy to the centrality of mekoros-hatorah in this discussion, i'm sure that the open-minded ones amongst us would be pleasantly surprised!
btw
i see little from the "anti camp" in the form of "torah-based" arguments!!!!
puzzling and disturbing!
where can i find the rebbe's sichos on the rambam hilchos melochim?
thanks n advance!
praying to him with Yihe adonenu...
saying that He is supper human and flawless.
indeed it is this kind of fundamentalism that directly gave rise to this heretical movement!
no sane human being will read a dead man's text and "quote it as holly gospel" he was a nice man, but thats where it ends, to treat his statements as god's words is idol-worship and leads naturally to the dangerous messianic movement, identical to j4j
it seems that your background is very anti Rebbe's all together!
you must reject the very underpinnings ALL chasidism, not just chabad!
you are also blind to a basic tennat of jewish theology:
that g-d places the soul of moshe rabeinu in each generation, as g-ds mouth piece!!
"ispashtusa d'moshe b'chol doro v' doro!
and
"shchina m'daberes m'toch grono"
this is judaism 101 not just chabad!
perhaps you need to read up a bit on the rebbe's track-recored of nature-defying miracles, not matched by a single contemporary
and the guaranteed slew of comments pro and anti - my goodness. how many years is it now since 3 tammuz? how many years will it take for everyone to absorb that pre 3 tamuz and post 3 tamuz are two completely different lubavitches - one with a rebbe as described by the rebbe - thus truly lubavitch, and one designed by everyone else - thus thier own lubavitch.
a true chossid is someone who sees his rebbe as Rosh Benei Yisroel, the Head of klal yisroel, connecting the soul life source with the rest of the body
the body better listen and follow the head!
2. The Rebbe himself explained how it's possible for a person who has passed to be Moshiach, I need not add anything to the Rebbe's words (see #17).
how old are u?
Also, you may find that "anti"s don't proselytize.
or a foolish snag!
your arguments prove one thing to lubavitchers! that there is little difference between: Snags, Atheists, and Anti-s
i couldn't have set it better my self! thanks
Yet, the part of the sicha that is the Rebbe's point, you conveniently ignore. The Rebbe says that EVERY SHLIACH IS MOSHIACH. I don't think it could be clearer than in that sicha.
But this shouldn't come as a surprise. After all, the Rebbe put us in charge even before 27 Adar! And what does that mean to you?
Have you ever learned the Maamar of Ve'atah Tetzaveh? Next time you do, ask yourself: what is the point of the Maamar, and what is the Rebbe telling us (in his "tzavaah maamar"!)? Here's a hint: the Rebbe didn't give us an entire maamar, 12 osios, just to insert his "instruction" to us in a single ois (=9)...
You can rail all you want about dor shvi'i or dor shmini or dor who cares what. The fact is, the Rebbe spoke and spoke again and again, went through a process of 5+ years to tell us what we need to know, but we simply didn't want to hear it. And then, when it happened, we didn't want to see it. Even now, 15 years later (!), we're denying it!
And meanwhile, all the preparation of the Rebbe, all his words, sichos, maamarim, and horaos fell to the wayside. We're too busy "giving chayus to the Rebbe" listen to what the REBBE wants, and do it!
When you understand this crucial point, every sicha and maamar that you ever had to teitch, will now be crystal clear and perfectly understandable, without "gribblin zich".
Of course, I'll get attacked with all sorts of taynos for saying this, but when you realize they're merely questions, you'll find that the answers are blissfully obvious.
Thank you for reading.
please stopppppppppppp
your not serious??
so if you dont belive teh rebbe is moshiach your a snag, athiest and anti?
all i can say is BORUCH HASEM FOR RABBI KLIEN
"Nosi Doreinu, who is Moshiach , with all the pirushim in Moshiach, annointed, chosen, a leader and shepherd of Israel to the extent that Moshiach is actually the simple translation of Nosi, and I won't bear any grudge if it will be translated that Nosi Doreinu is Moshiach Tzidkeinu , in its simple form, because that is truly the reality - that the Nosi of our generation was Moshiach in his generation and is Moshiach in our generation"
How could we have said that the rebbe was chezkas moashiach before gimel tamuz and chezkas moshiach after gmel tamuz?
ie min hachayim ie min hamaysim.
I do believe that in a few short years there will be a deprogramming program for a lot of lubavitchers and yes you will have to blame it on the "so called" mashpiem...
"...that is the truth - that the Nosi of a generation is Moshiach of that generation."
"I won't bear any grudge if "Moshiach" will be translated in it's simple form, Moshiach Tzidkeinu, since this is the truth - that the Nassi of a generation is Moshiach of that generation."
how interesting a pattern!
att anti-s: please deal with the torah sources for a change,
and please dont gimmy that shtus that all the Rabbis all of them are mis-interpreting the texts!
careful before you dismiss even the so called anti guru Reb Yoel K. who openly admits that the sichos are clear and simple supportive of Dor Acharon, and Nosi is moashiach and the Process is already in progress as of 5759
efen a sicha un batracht dain farbisin-keit!
"in a few short years there will be a..."
i think you need a good farbrengen, and a serious ch.h"n
his programmer is the rebbeh
one of the rebbe's programs were "asey lecho rav" aka have a mashpia, the rebbeh will give him sayata d'shmaya
"Azoi vi es iz geven opgeleigt biz itzter azoi iz opgeleigt oichet itzter". (Just as it was clear to us before the histalkus of the FR that he would take us out of this golus the same should be clear now too).
(and as Reb Yoel explains in kovetz geulah umoshiach volume 4 pg 32 onwards, that the Rebbe did not mean like what some want to twist and drei that the Rebbe didn't mamosh mean the actual moshiach but al derech like the midrash of moshe rabeinu hu goel rishon etc., but he meant what he said and implied throughout his nesius, that the nosi doreinu will be moshiach kipshuto, melech hamoshiach).
you would make a great (normal) mishichist, you are sensible and eloquent! you manage to articulate a convincing message w/o providing anything concrete to bak-it-up
if only you spent the next 2years 30 minutes p/day learning the sichos nun alef nun beis! you wold be the ultimate package-deal, the content-toichin of the right + the presentable-delivery and class of the left (aka pr spin)
yet notice the bottom-line of concussion of your point is a TWIST that sounds good for a second, but wont sell, to anyone who is learned in the rebbes sichos, especially the "preparatory" sichos of nun alef and nun beis leading up to 27 adar!!!
in the period before 27 adar the Rebbeh introduces revolutionary chidushim, a major shift from previous fazes in his nesius!
The Rebbe taught us by example for 40+ years. Do you mirror that?
If you think about it, it's patently ludicrous to think that the Rebbe ever said that the Frierdiker Rebbe IS Moshiach. (As a matter of fact, such a belief would necessarily contradict our own belief that the Rebbe himself is Moshiach. How do you explain that? How could we claim to know who Moshiach is better than the Rebbe?!?!)
If we really want to understand what the Rebbe said, all we have to do is stop talking so much, and start listening more.
The long list of "meshichist' Rabbis mentioned above, have themselves different opinions in the details - 1) what exactly happened on 3 Tamuz.;
2) what exactly means the a/the Rebbe is "alive';
3) some of them are not intelectaully honest... ;
4) all of us had it figured out but the unbelievable 3 Tamuz did happen, so maybe their/our present view is also a mistake;
.5) anyone who claims to really know the answers is a fool, there are things we just don't fully comprehend.
6) We should be busy with things all agree on, hafatza, shlichus, Torah, Tznius, Ahavas Yisroel, hiskashrus, wanting Mashiach etc.
I'm sure the Rebbe said that his FIL is Moshiach somehwere.
in the early years he used the words "nishmaso bee" referring to the soul of the frierdikerebbeh into the rebbeh!
in more recent years the rebbeh gave testimony for the 5teves trial, stating that often when he says "der nosy hador derebbeh der shver" he is ultimately reffering to himself! with those words (since he carries within himself the presence of the frierdikerrebbeh)
btw
this particular quote where the rebbeh clarifies what he means when he says that "the previous rebbeh is the nosi hador" he means himself!
this quote was spoken to the judge by Rabbi Avraham Shemtov!!!
i'm glad you are asking smart questions,
i just hope that you will be willing to accept the truth even if it requires some radical adjustments to you current hashkafa
very simple, the rebbeh since mem tes has updated the developements re the stages of hisgalus hamoshiach
the rebbeh has openly annouced that the peulos and metzius of moshiach has already bee initiated! more so than just a potential moshiach which exists on stand-by in each generation!
that means that the rebbeh took the next step by confirming his dor as the final one in galus and the first in geula, read it for yourself, it was not at all mistakable as a wish or fantacy but rather a proclamation!
yes he said the process has alredy begun we are merely at that dark stage where we must open our (intellectual) eyes to see that we are indeed one foot out the door FOR REAL!!
genug shoin
for the same price how can they call the bobover rav by that name he was never in bobov.
the same with nearly all thew rebbes and rabanim that call theselves after their ancestors home towns
good work all of you trolls
both of you! grow up, and face the music!
all we get from the anti-s are vague twisty attacks with little substance and backing! whats going on, is there only one side that is based in sources?! (puzzled)
we dont lower ourselfs to reading or responding to silly posts! this is childish!
(chayei sara 5752)
"my father in law, the nosi of our generation, the only shliach of our generation, the only Moshiach of our generation"
(shabbos vayera 5752)
"And according to the notification of my father in law the Rebbe, "Nosi Doreinu, Moshiach Tzidkeinu" that all the inyanei avoda have already ended and have been fulfilled and we are standing ready to be mikabel pnei Moshiach Tzidkeinu, behold, in these days all the obstructions and ikuvim etc have been nullified and since this is the case we have not only the metzius of Moshiach but also the Revelation of Moshiach and now we need only to be mikabel pnei moshiach tzidkeinu in actuality mamosh"
See also sichos kodesh shabbas parsha noso 5720 pg 318 (in short)
the Rebbe says that when the kol koreh's concerning l'alter l'geulah came out the chassidim added that Hu Hu, meaning Moshiach is the FR
(just btw for your semantics-hang-up, the rebbe says the words: "iz doch moshiach do" "moshiach is here" not "will" be here, and according to you the yerushalmi should have said "yihiyeh dovid batzmo" not "hu" dovid batzmo
For some reason, I believe that anything that comes from the Rebbe is emes, true on every level. So yeah, you'll go into full pirushim how moshe shebidor and nishmaso bi etc., but bottom line, the Rebbe didn't mean the words that he said. Unfortunately for you, you believe that the Rebbe is not completely emes on every level.
That said, it should be plainly obvious to any Chassid who has ever listened to the Rebbe speak, that the biggest Chassid of the Frierdiker Rebbe was the Rebbe himself. The Rebbe absolutely considered/s himself a Chassid of the FR, and when he ever said "nessi doreinu" he was actually talking about HIS Rebbe, the FR. When he said the FR will be Moshiach, he meant it as is, no kunsim. The Rebbe was a Chassid.
Nevertheless, the Rebbe knew where he was, who he was, and who he was talking to, so he made clear that FOR US, the Rebbe is himself. We are the Rebbe's Chassidim.
Therefore, whatever position we saw the Rebbe take as a Chassid of HIS Rebbe, that's the very same position WE should take for OUR Rebbe. And, as I said above, the Rebbe never EVER said that the Frierdiker Rebbe IS Moshiach. Rather, he explained how he COULD BE, namely that he will get up in techiya BEFORE Moshiach.
Chayei Sara 5752: "the only Moshiach OF OUR GENERATION".
The Rebbe is clearly and unequivocally relating Moshiach to the generation. Obviously not THE Moshiach ("melech hamoshiach"), but Moshiach, just as every Rebbe is "the only Moshiach of their generation". This is right there in the words, no pshetlach.
Also, thank you for bringing the Sicha of Shabbos Vayeira 5752, which you CONVENIENTLY MISQUOTED, and here is the proper quote: "And according to the notification of my father in law, Nosi Doreinu, Moshiach SHEBIDOREINU...", which again proves my point.
This is the same as in Leil Simchas Torah 46 that you brought me, as per above. And, so you'll find, in every single place you THINK the Rebbe says the FR is Moshiach (including naso that you bring), in reality he doesn't.
As for your point about the yerushalmi, that's according to the opinion that Moshiach COULD be from the dead, but we're talking about the HALACHA, which says he CAN'T be.
And you may call it semantics all you like, but in reality it's either against Halacha or isn't. And not only that, the Rebbe NEVER said the FR IS Moshiach, so why should we? I ask again, are we bigger chassidim than the Rebbe himself???
If I say anything that comes across as harsh and/or offensive etc., it's simply a result of the anonymity of both sides.
the rebbe's statements refering to nosy = moshiach, is HARDLY the bases of the rebbeh being melech hamoshiach!
who ever your talking to needs to read the sichos compiled in the kuntres dvar malchus!! which takes the concept of moshiach in our generation to a new THRESHOLD altogether, essentially that peulos of THE moshiach is alredy taking place, (not just in the future but) as a present and past fact in affect. k'pshutoi! ... read the dvar malchus for your self!!!
If you can't answer this question straight, please tell us directly before we all lose patience with you, do you feel we are in dor hashmini?
You say halacha says moshiach cannot be from the dead, there's no such halacha, if you meant that someone who died cannot hold a chazaka of being moshiach, I understand you, but no halacha or Rambam says that one who gets up bitchias hameisim cannot be moshiach. Besides, the Rambam, halacha, is written for the practical world not for the world of nissim as such and writes for the worse case scenario of lo zochu, "Al yaaleh al hadaas" that moshiach must make nissim, but nevertheless the Rambam does not rule it out.
what's you're point that ein moshiach lyisroel? that were in a new dor and therefore the shluchim are now going to be moshiach? if so the Rambam should have said V'im yaamod Melochim
You would like to think that the Rebbe was saying that Moshiach is actually here, and therefore the Rebbe, as Nassi of the present generation, is Moshiach. But unfortunately (and I hope this isn't news to you), Moshiach is actually NOT here. And I sincerely hope that you won't bring be "proofs" from sichos that Moshiach is here, because if this is what you think yemos hamoshiach is supposed to look like, you'll be pleasantly surprised to find out what it's really supposed to look like.
As an aside, I'd like to ask you: what does "mekabel pnei Moshiach Tzidkeinu" even mean? And how does one go about doing it?
As to your final question: Do you know that the Frierdiker Rebbe said that HIS generation was dor hashvi'i, and the last generation in golus? So, what generation do you believe we're in, if not dor hashmini? In fact, how could the Rebbe even say that we're dor hashvi'i?? Was the Frierdiker Rebbe lying or faking or did he not know what he was talking about?
Rest assured, that whatever you answer for my question will be very close to my answer for your question.
may i say, your very commenting is hipocrisy to the text of your comment.
yechi adonenu morenu verabenu melech hamoshiach leolam vaed! btw whats so proud abt being a anti? r u so proud about it? if ur an anti that means you dont know yet who is moshiach. that should be depressing. i am a proud meshichist, i am proud that i have full belief that the rebbe shlita is melech hamoshiach
hey everyone - Melech Moshiach - Menachem Mendel. Simple
for those who dont know, Menachem Mendel is the rebbe shlita
If you insist that Moshaich must come from the living - then the only coclusion you can have is either 1) the Rebbe is still alive. or 2) the Rebbe was a Navi Sheker (CH"V).
Pick your choice...
to be sure:
Niglah has clearly been via the recent sichos,
Nichsa (clearly the rebbeh fits the definition of "concelment"
Choizer v'nisgaleh AMEIN! ready or NOT here he comes!!!
Is the Rebbe the Nosi of this generation we presently find ourselves in?
how abot Bossi Legani ..."Dor Shvi-ee" (no room for confusion there!)
...numerous statements proclaiming a clear overt shift in policy-reality visavi the historic unfolding of the initial stages of geula, there is a striking shift between the first thirty+years of the nesius (focussed on anticipating moshiach...) to the last few years (focussed on open-your-eyes - learn inyonei... see the process in motion, as it unfolds! yes the early-dark stages predicted in mekoros)
non the less the Rebbeh never mislead or said irresponsible proclamations_
READING A SICHA HEAR AND A SICHA THERE (HALEVAY U EVEN READ THE ENTIRE SICHA)
99.999999% OF YOUR QUESTION ARE BLATENTLY OUT OF IGNORANCE OF THE REBBE'S OWN WORDS!!!
IF U TRULY WISH TO KNOW THE EMES FOR YOU SELF! (dont be scared! you can do what Manis Friedman does and keep it to yourself)
YOU NEED ONLY TO DO WHAT A CHOSSID DOES:
A) WHERE DOES A CHOSSID SEARCH FOR THE EMES (hint Sichos)
B) WHAT KIND OF CHOSSID DOESN'T BECOME "BUKKY" (FLUENT) IN THE REBBE'S SICHOS!
C) WHICH CHOSSID DOSENT FOLLOW THE REBBE'S REQUEST ("ha-derech hayeshara") TO OPEN YOUR EYES, BY LEARMING INYONEI GEULA U'MOSHIACH"
AGAIN THE REBBEH HAD GOOD REASON TO BEG AND BEG US TO LEARN THIS TOP WELL! (torah sources are very useful when talking to ppl like RMK)
Yes, that's exactly what I meant, as I said numerous times in this thread.
this was probably not sent for the post commentary! or maybe he dident read the posts! or maybe he changed his paragigm! any ways i have left him a voicemail, i said i'm 41 years old, i am man enough to deal with the truth!! how dare you treat me like a child who needs to be sheltered or maybe my mind is too fickle to accept the torah pure in its entirety!
good shabbis to you all and thank for your frankness!
Besides which, you evidently do not know what "generation" in this context means. For example, when the Rebbe said "Nosi Doreinu", he meant HIS Rebbe, namely the Frierdiker Rebbe. At the very same time, OUR "Nosi Doreinu" was the Rebbe himself. So, if you'd ask in 5740: "who is the Rebbe of the present generation?" The answer is: it depends who you ask.
All that notwithstanding, I'll humor you, and answer clearly: The Rebbe is and will always be our Nossi.
Re: Dor shvi'i: see end of #117.
Re: shift: There absolutely was a shift of focus. Much greater than you ever realized...
Jews, especially Lubavitchers, were never meant to live a single day (or year) over and over and over again. We're supposed to move forward, constantly pushing and working towards bringing Moshiach. Unfortunately, a large percentage of Lubavitch got caught in a virtual time-freeze, and can't seem to take a single step towards the actual ge'ulah...
When you realize that everything you think you're doing to bring Moshiach actually doesn't bring Moshiach at all, then you'll understand why Moshiach hasn't come, now already 15 years after Gimmel Tammuz.
i'll patiently wait for you to produce a source!
please dont tell me you heard it once or you think your grandfather was there,
if you have a source lets see it!
since you sound open minded i think you deserve a crash course (that is by no means complete! its erev shabbos achar chatzois -pun intended)
hear are some pertinent CHAZALs to help clear up the confusion:
CHAZAL: Dor Moshiach's neshamos are gilgulim of Dor Hamidbar.
CHAZAL: Dor Acharon's Emuna (b'divrei moshe) will be tested as was Dor Rishon's fath
CHAZAL: Geulas Moshiach will follow the same pattern as Geulas Mitzrayim.
CHAZAL: Moshe Rabeinu proclaims the good news "pokod pokadety"
CHAZAL: Moshe's words fall on deaf ears! Most of bnei yisroel don't believe moshe! Only a handful take his words literally!
CHAZAL: Mosheh takes off, He disappears, Galus then gets even darker, more difficult...
CHAZAL: Most jews disbelieved HIS words bc of the continued and increased darkness of Galus, and the apparent absence off moshe
CHAZAL: Suddenly Moshe Returns, and leads the jews out of Galus,
CHAZAL: NOW ALL jews believed!
CHAZAL: the same pattern will unfold b'Dor Acharon, with the Revelation of Moshiach and the ultimate Geulah
CHAZAL: (stage of NIGLA ) first moshiach is be revealed, but on a small scale. at that time he will proclaim "anovim higia zman geulaschem"
CHAZAL: (stage NICHSA) Most jews will not believed HIS words or recognize him as THE REAL MOSHIACH bc of the continued and increased darkness of Galus, and the apparent absence off moshe,
CHAZAL: bc of the darkness, this stage is also described as the time when, "yisbareru v'yislabnu" who truly has faith and who doesn't will be clarified and crystallized,
CHAZAL: also in this final stage before the Complete Hisgalus, "Cherfu Ikvos M'Shichecho" the ones to resist and combat moshiach will be non other than BIG Rabbis Chasidim with long-white-beards,
CHAZAL: (stage CHOZER VNISGALEH) Suddenly Moshiach Returns, and leads the jews out of Galus,
CHAZAL: NOW ALL BELIEVE!
FACT: the Rebbeh Proclaimed "anovim higia zman geulaschem"
AND SO ON AND SO FORTH, SORY FOR CUTTING SHORT, BUT IT IS EREV SHABBOS AND I MUST GET THE CHULLENT GOING! TO BE CONTINUED BLN!
in the mean time start a daily hachlata to learn and become BUKKY in this topic, after all the Rebbeh begged us to,
derech hayeshara... this will also help fulfill the Rebbe's campaign open your eyes!
1. Who applied this whole idea of "chozer v'nisgaleh", the Rebbe or Chassidim? When did we first hear of this concept, before or after Gimmel Tammuz?
If the Rebbe didn't tell us to apply a "new" concept, do we have the audacity to do so?
2. In any case, as Rav Klein succinctly points out, "Nichsa" does not mean "passed away". In the original story of Moshe, he didn't die, he went away. Big difference.
source of life and direction for the body!
the head is the ikar mishkan higalus haneshomo (zohar)
so to the Rebbeh connects the soul of all to the Ultimate energy source
he also supplies chayus and emuna, making judaism warm real and alive!
for more details see v'ato t'tzaveh
There are two perspectives: spiritual (from above) and physical (from below). Or, Hashem's perspective and people's perspective. Or the Rebbe's perspective and Chassidim's perspective, etc.
From the spiritual perspective, a Rebbe is the source of life for the world. We, as physical people who have no tangible concept of spirituality, don't know what this means, and therefore the concept is practically irrelevant (to us). Consequently, it's okay to postulate that this element of the Rebbe remains even after he passes away (see Igeres Hakodesh 27 and many places).
From our perspective, however, a Rebbe fulfills two purposes:
1. To be a living example of G-dliness in this physical world (as brought down in Tanya, "tzadikkim v'osos umofsim, etc."). In other words, to be an inspiration to people.
2. To guide and direct the people in their service of Hashem. A practical example of this is when there seems to be a conflict in Halacha (e.g. do we reach out to the non-observant?), the Rebbe will tell the people to do what is relevant in their service of Hashem in that generation.
Another example: before the Baal Shem Tov, it was relevant to serve Hashem by being thoroughly learned, to study constantly, and be as far removed from the world as possible. Then, the nature of our service changed, as it was introduced by the Baal Shem Tov and his successors.
You see that from our perspective, it's absolutely necessary for the Rebbe to be alive and present in order to be the present Rebbe...
you seem very raw and unfamiliar with the terminology of our holly sources,
perhaps #131 was correct to classifie you as one who did not follow the Rebbe's demand that all should persue this study diligently,
he saw rite through you
his suspicion was obviously right on target to send you to do the Rebbe's request, and make a keveeus in the relevant Sichos kodesh, ...then i suspect you'll be singing a very different tune!
u ask:
....."Who applied this whole idea of "chozer v'nisgaleh", the Rebbe or Chassidim?.... "
ANSWER: a chossid cant be a chossid shoiteh!
if the Rebbeh urged us to go learn all about this stuff, then obviously he wants us to KNOW IT!
if it is not contidicted by the Rebbeh's sichas or igros, why do you feel the need for special permission to "APPLY IT"?
torah sources apply by default!
gut shabbos
and open a sefer (u know which1)
like me you'll get hooked, and scared, and exited, and shape up while u still have a chance
As to your question as to what it means to be mikabel pnei moshiach tzidkeinu, as in the expression ani mispalel lodaas ze hatinok, it means very simple that knowing that the Rebbe will soon be nisgaleh and take us as melech hamoshiach to yerushalayim I want to be everything the Torah and chassidus wants me to be so I can fulfill the tachlis of dira b'tachtonim which obviously means leading a life of shmiras torah umitzvos bhidur min hamehadrin, and following the rebbeim's horoos and especially the instructions of the Rebbe melech hamoshiach to my greatest ability and to make sure that my own hergeshim and ego does not get me distracted from following the exact commanding orders of the melech, which of course includes achdus yisroel and therefore have nothing against you ch'v and only wish to share my feelings in the spirit of shevs achim gam yochad. good shabbos & moshiach now!
i enjoyed your ability to compact ss much is such brief a format
you'll continue where u left off, right aftr havadalah
You, however (nothing personal), will willingly say foolish things that the Rebbe never said or condoned, and then claim that the Rebbe approves!!!! Do you have any background whatsoever in a Chassid/Rebbe relationship, or were you introduced to "the Rebbe is Moshiach" before even know what a Rebbe is????
for 40+ years the Rebbe teaches us about Moshiach, and that's all we need to know. But then when it becomes convenient for us, we'll go to other sources to find out the "real story" that the Rebbe "kept from us"...
Och un vei to chassidim like you (again, nothing personal. I'm sure you mean well).
However, he does say clearly (as did the Rebbe Rashab before him) that his was the last generation of golus, etc.
The Rebbe said that the FR WILL BE Moshiach. The reason the Rebbe never said the FR IS Moshiach, is because it's AGAINST HALACHA to say so on a person who's NOT ALIVE. And for the third time, I ask you: Are you a greater Chassid than the Rebbe himself??? (Apparently yes, and not only that, you'll go against the Rebbe's own shita of who can be Moshiach, and then claim that everyone else is a travesty to Lubavitch... vchu.)
Re: Kaballas Pnei Moshiach: So basically, this avodah is doing Torah and Mitzvos as best as possible, knowing that Moshiach is coming. I'm glad we cleared that up, because even you agree that it has absolutely nothing to do with "figuring out" who Moshiach is. There's your answer to your own question (?) in #113: When the Rebbe says that the only thing left is to be "mekabel etc" he's not telling us to figure out who Moshiach is. That's all.
Good Shabbos, and let's bring Moshiach now.
My apologies.
Nevertheless, I don't think we can ignore the fact that the Rebbe wasn't the first one to announce that Moshiach is coming now (l'alter l'ge'ulah, anyone?), nor that this is the last generation of golus.
Even though #139 does want to ignore it...
You ignore reality because the Rebbe really really wanted Moshiach.
Reasonable.
the man sounds like your prototypical anti (who is probably also a very dedicated shliach with very good intentions)
and is doing what these smart spin-docters do well!
long on Rebbeh 40 year Rbebeh Rebbeh and Short on concrete arguments based on the Rebbe's perfect words!
re
143 & 142
i dont judge him for one second, i'm melamid zechus, that he is soo very bizzy running his chabad house, family, etc that he simply had never had the time and opportunity to read all the Rebbe's sichos, as well as a daily shiur in sources inyonei moshiach!
i know THIS is the case with the vast majority of todays shluchim, they are stuck in MEM GIMUL and LAMID TES they were always too pressed for time to catch up on 1000s of pages of "fundamental" updates
the fact that he resorts to his "relationship" and accusses his critics of being BTs and NOT ROYAL BLOODED and "foon di alteh"
dear shliach you blatant "ignorance" of the most relevant sichos is SHOUTING SOO LOUD in your transparent dreykup arguments that upon closer examination are pushut "a bitul zman" to take apart,
they are so, hollow and lacking in substance that i feel shame for you and your types out there!
my simple conclussion is that your comments reflect your desperate meandering and your need to either put up or... and for once WE ALL BE YOU TO PLEASE ADREESS THE ISSUES PURELY ON THE BASSES OF TORAH SOURCES AND NOTHING ELS (i include of course sichos too)
again goot shabbis and no hard feelings
oh did i mention i'm ffb and have had a long and happy Rebbeh chossid relationship!
as have 89% of the leading mishichistim, vocal or not (including Reb Yoel Kahan and Manis Friedman who will shushkely admit 1on1)
nice try
to skirt the issue by hacking a kup about the FR and again the FR and the Rashab, very cleaver, i see right through it
you cant deal with the sichos head on!
You want to bring other sichos? Bring them, and we'll talk about them. Don't talk about bringing sichos, or not being able to argue sichos, or not knowing sichos, bring the sicha, and we'll see what it says! Are you scared of what you might find? I've learned nun alef and nun bais (like a "model chassid, right?") as well as tof shin yud and yud alef and many in between. Nowhere does it say that the Rebbe is alive, nor that the Rebbe is Melech Hamoshiach.
Can you bring me a sicha that says either of those things? No, you can't. At best, you can bring me a COMBINATION of UNRELATED sichos which MAY OR MAY NOT imply those things, with gutte dreidlach.
You're convincing yourself that you're the only one who's been around the block. And no, I have nothing against baalei tshuva, I think they're the most wonderful people on earth. I have something against people who yesterday were shown a seechah from "noon alif v'noon bet" and today they're teaching and preaching and they know exactly what the Rebbe wants from us. That grosses me out.
your summery: that all the complex and nuonced teachings of the rebbeh, where he disectedthe rambam hilchos milochim in pain-staking detail, all in a futile effort to wishfully hope for moshiach!!"
do you here yourself?
are you sure you are one of our? or are you a clueless snag? who takeh knows not the precission of the Rebbe's sichos especially those muga,
how dissapointing soo much effort went into those sichos, in the rebbe's attempt to "open our eyes" to the immenant reality, and ...
you have the ROYAL CHUTZPA to dismiss 1000s of pages as "HE really really wanted Moshiach. "
thats all those sichos mean to you
perhaps you identify with the yidden who said the identical thing re moshe's proclamation "pakod pakadaty"
if you were raised chabad than shame on all of us for having messed up on you soo badly!
if you just a misleading outsider, then welcom to chabad (chabad means intellect reason, but alpi torah)
I firmly believe that the Rebbe will be Moshiach and take us out of golus very soon. We're not arguing about that.
What we're arguing is whether or not it's acceptable to say the Rebbe is "melech hamoshiach" after gimmel tammuz.
The Torah sources that say it's unacceptable have already been brought: I don't need add to the words of Rabbi Klein (world renowned posek). YOU are the one that has to bring sources to REFUTE his psak. Meanwhile, I'm challenging YOU to bring me a SINGLE sicha where the Rebbe says he, or the FR, is Moshiach. If you know the sichos so well, it shouldn't be that hard, now should it?
Also, I naturally assumed that you weren't the one who argued "chozer v'nichseh". Of course, if you are, I'm appalled. Do you believe that everything it says in gemara, medrash, and kabbalah about Moshiach (even the different contradictory accounts) will happen in reality??? Or only when it's convenient for you? The Rebbe tells us which Moshiach sources are relevant, and when HE found it necessary, HE explains what they mean (contrary to their simple understanding).
But now we all of the sudden became beki'im gedolim in Moshiach, and we give our OWN explanations CONTRARY to their simple understanding? Since when did we become a Rebbe? Unless... you believe that we're the Rebbe of dor hashmini???!!
I'm sorry, but we don't make these things up on our own. ESPECIALLY if we have to take the sources OUT OF CONTEXT and DREY them to fit our own agenda.
I can't imagine a Chassid who has a Rebbe deciding on his own what will and won't happen when Moshiach comes (how do we know?!), and then claiming it's the absolute truth.
lets see: how many of you ppl actually printed this out and read it all on shabbos? and if u did, i wonder what your opinion is now after reading everything... i say: a meshichist who wavers after reading what rabbi klein and all antis write, and starts doubting that the rebbe is really moshiach, wasnt a meshichist in the begining.
i was a meshichist and i still am a proud one!! i believe beemuna shelema that the rebbe shlita is moshiach tzidkenu! thank you (i forgot which number comment u r) that one who said abt Melech Moshiach is Menachem mendel
i like your titles
the first was entitled 'rabbi klein rips messianics' now its censored, tho not less ripping, to 'rabbi klein talks to friend'
intresting
ah gutt voch!
i think, you will have no other choice than to carve out an hour a day, for the next 2 or 3 years to play catch up on a very monumental period of the Rebbe's sichos,
the ones leading up to 27 Addar,
the ones where he is coaxing and prepping his chasidim for the period starting 27 addar
btw
well before 27 addar, the Rebbeh turned up the gears (feverishly) re cranking out as many volumes of IGROS Kodes as possible,
The Rebbeh was adamant to his secretariat, that they move as quickly as possible to produce the new CHALOKIM on after another,
as the Rebbeh's secretaries (R.Simpson) reveals
the Rebbeh would decide which Letters to include or Exclude!
often the Rebbeh chose letters to be included that seemingly had no public value, as they were arbitrary YES and NO answers pertaining to surgery etc where no transferable lessons seemed to justify the Rebbeh's choice to include and publish them,
of course today (after 27 addar) the Rebbeh's preparation for this period is proven every day around the world, with countless miracles seen with the Letters of the Rebbeh,
(which was never such a well know practice by chasidim, of the past, there is only a handful of president for this practice prior to 27 Addar)
today the purpose of including these seemingly useless letters is clear,
the Rebbeh had and has a plan, its unfolding we need ONLY to OPEN OUR EYES,
learning that which he said too,
what i'm against is the chillul H, and Lubavitch,!
not Anti the Rebbeh being moshiach! i as a chossid have this hergesh too
i think all soo called "anti" shluchim feel the same,
we wish that the small number of crazies did not hijack the moshiach cause, and then crash land it!
if you really knoe the sichos nun alef nun beis
how then do you make the statement in post 149 that the rebbeh never addressed the issue of whether he is alive now (in the period before complete hisgalus,
i'll give you a hint if you are clueless which sicha adresse h pshat, (what is the Rebbeh saying)
less then one year ago Reb Yoel had this to say re p'shat,
"there is No mistaking what the Rebbeh is trying to convey, he's trying to say that 3Tamuz was not possible!
then i asked him what does he mean by 3tamuz was being negated, we see it happened! (death R"L) he said go ask your mashpia!
there you have it Reb Yoel Kahan (hand picked by the Rebbeh to understan pshat in his words) saying what b;pashtus the Rebbeh was being sholel!
whether Reb Yoel Believes the Rebbe's words personally or Not, is irrelivant to whether he is authoritative to understand WHAT the Rebbeh said!
to Believe the Rebbeh's words is a chossids personal challange but to Understand the Rebbe's words was the Rebbe's challang and he made himself exceedingly clear!
the yidden by the egel hazahav also UNDERSTOOD the WHAT moshe rabeinu said, the question was who believed their eyes and who believed their Rebbeh!
the Satan did his best to present a convincing enough appearance of death that had 90% of smart klal yisroel buy it, rather than the perfect words of their Rosh Bnei Yisroel!
no "gniza" (even hashesiya)
then i advise you to ask Reb Yoel Kahan, for pushuteNowhere does it say that the Rebbe is alive, nor that the Rebbe is Melech Hamoshiach.
the crazies dont do damage if the "normal" lubavitcher ppl and shluchim, were equiped and learned enough to defend the lubvitch belief rather than deny it, and then get caught red-handed denying it!
what you and all the shluchim should have done is, to implement the Rebbe;s (tzav hashaa) of public classes in the subject of trah sources re moshich,
those few shluchim who actually did that request from the Rebbeh, had enough time to properly educate thei constituency to where they themselves recognized the times were living in from the Torah-Sichos perspective,
(as the Rebbeh wished it ..."open youe eyes)
your right on one foot its not "NISKABEL"
thats why one follows all the Rebbe's campaigns including "inyonei Moshiach" classases!
It's quite difficult to have conversations without being able to know who you're talking to. Well let me introduce myself, I'm Sholom and I'm same as #139 (and of course other #s). I assume you are the same as #144. Please when you respond type your name at the top of each post so we can talk to each other without getting confused.
Ok, your hang-up with "IS" verses "WILL BE" has no basis and totally unfounded. As I told you before, you are getting caught up with semantics. When one says he IS Moshiach the intention is that he is the one destined to fulfill the role of Melech Hamoshiach, even though he might have only begun the process or stands even before the beginning. So far you are on record for prematurely saying revolutionary things without back-up (FR-dor hashvii comment is case in point). To accuse yidden of going against halacha for saying IS instead of WILL BE is quite incriminating and I would be more careful unless you have solid sources to back up your comments.
Besides the logic I gave you, here are my sources:
A. When Rabbi Akiva pointed to Ben Kuziva as Moshiach he did not say that he WILL be Moshiach but he IS melech hamoshiach (as the Rambam writes in hilchos melochim 11:2) although Ben Kuziva was only in the beginning stages of chezkas and certainly not yet moshiach vadai, and to top it off he ended up not being Moshiach at all! but the Rambam teaches us that Rabbi Akiva was absolutely not wrong for making that statement!
B. Rashi in Sanhedrin (98b) says "If Moshiach is from those who are alive today Vadai, for sure, it IS (NOT WILL BE) Rabbeinu Hakodosh".
To prove my point further, you yourself say, "I firmly believe that the Rebbe will be Moshiach and take us out of golus very soon", if it is against halacha to say about someone who's not alive that he IS moshiach, (which of course you haven't shown me any halachos on that but let's leave that right now) then how can you even hold such a belief that he WILL be which is in your words "against halacha"? Where does one who follows halacha so tightly get the "firm belief" that someone who died will be Moshiach when halacha leaves no room for it ?
However, if IS means, like I explained above, that he is the one destined from Hashem to fulfill the role of moshiach and will end up finishing the process ending with his full blown melech hamoshiach status, what could be wrong with that according to Halacha?
Please also see the sicha of Beis Rabbeinu shebibovel (sefer hasichos 5752 B pg 472, where after the Rebbe describes in no uncertain descriptions that his father in law, as the one who will be the final goel, as he brings from the chasam sofer etc, and therefore his shul, namely 770 is actually the place of the future beis hamikdash) the Rebbe clearly says: :"the true and complete geulah through Moshiach Tzidkeinu, the Nosi Hador who IS the Moshiach, the goalon shel yisroel, of the dor"
I rest my case.
I'm sure in your akshonus, you're going to say, "but you see it says moshiach of the dor", this is your krumkeit that I hope you'll get over, the fact that the Rebbe's referring here to his FIL as the FINAL GOEL (obviously he is adding that he's the moshiach shebidor, as that's why the Rebbe states he feels he is the final goel) clearly indicates his intention and to say that the Rebbe never said it or that such statements are against halacha is ludicrous and putting your own Rebbe in a very bad light r"l, chachamim hizaharu bdivreichem.
When the Rebbe said a Tefilah or plea for Moshiach to come right now, or be revealed here, or take us out of golus, or that we should be able to point and say here is Moshiach, or that the Rebbe will lead us to Moshiach, or that Miyad=Menachem, Yosef Yitzchak, and Dovber, or Mamosh with all it's explanations, well, those WERE TEFILOT!
Let me break it down simply for those of you who don't understand hebrew: the words "yehi ratzon" mean "may it be the will of Hashem that the following happens". Understood?
It's nice to know that you will continue to believe in mistaken and damaging values even after they've been proven wrong.
It's fun to distort the Rebbe's words to negate reality AND Halacha, isn't it?
Please write coherently, with proper sentence structure, spelling, and grammar.
You make me look bad.
these wewr your words:
...not Anti the Rebbeh being moshiach! i as a chossid have this hergesh
My "hangup" about "is" and "will be" is clearly based in halacha. Unfortunately, you're confusing the very similar concepts of "alive", and "dead". Here's the Halacha:
1. A live person CAN be Moshiach.
2. A dead person CANNOT be Moshiach.
Where do I get this from? Let's see:
The Rambam, who is the SINGLE Halachic authority in this matter (NOT the Abarbenel, or Rashi on Sanhedrin, etc.), says "if he did not succeed to the point [of building the Beis Hamikdash and gathering the Jews from all over] or he was killed, it is then known that this is NOT Moshiach, and he is just like all the kings from the House of Dovid who died."
Now, you can drey all you want, but the very SIMPLE meaning of this is that if a person dies, HE CANNOT BE MOSHIACH. What's more: if the Rambam held like the opinion that Moshiach COULD be from the dead, he would make that clear!
Now, even though the following goes OUT of the realm of Halacha, I will address it because it's the MAIN (if not only) mokor to say Moshiach could be from the dead:
Here are Rashi's words: "If Moshiach WAS from those who have already died, then he WAS Daniel..." Rashi says the word "was" TWICE! Now, although in the context, "was" doesn't seem to make any sense, what it DOES say is that even Rashi holds that if he's dead, he's NOT Moshiach currently!! But this is everybody's makor to say that Moshiach could be from the dead. Could it be said that Rashi used the word "was" twice specifically to exclude this conclusion?
You're right that "I firmly believe" is a strong way to put it. That's the very reason why I WOULDN'T advertise my beliefs everywhere. However, it is NOT against halacha to believe that a not-alive person will rise in techiya BEFORE Moshiach, and then be Moshiach. It's not against Halacha at all; all it is, is OUTLANDISH and based on a ridiculous miracle. And, Halacha itself doesn't believe in it.
However, as a Chassid of the Rebbe I'm entitled to believe (maybe "hope" would be more accurate) that my Rebbe will ultimately be Moshiach, even if it DOES take an outlandish miracle to happen. And I learned that from MY Rebbe, who believed (or "hoped") the same about HIS Rebbe, AS HE TAUGHT US.
Obviously, when you understand the difference between "alive" and "dead", you will see that your points A and B are completely irrelevant, as they are talking about people who were ALIVE.
I think you should examine the books in your library for accuracy, because you conveniently misquoted AGAIN. And here is the proper quote:
[Beginning of paragraph] "Our Rebbe, the Nossi of the generation, is also Moshiach (redeemer of Yisroel) in the generation, ... as it's known that in every generation there is 'one who is appropriate, due to his righteousness, to be the redeemer, and when the time comes, Hashem will be revealed to him and He will send him etc.', and it is fitting to say that this is the Nossi of the generation..."
And you want to say that the Rebbe is NOT talking about the Moshiach of the generation???!! Can the Rebbe be any more clear than this?? Can there be a better example of people trying to twist the Rebbe's words to mean something he clearly didn't say??!!
I found your following statement painfully ironic: "putting your own Rebbe in a very bad light". Do you have any idea that most people who hear your beliefs automatically compare Chabad and the Rebbe to xtianity and oso ha'ish lehavdil elef havdalos r"l? And I'M the one putting the Rebbe in a bad light?!?
Chayim
you can only succeed to mislead those readers who dont either know the sichos first hand
these were your words:
....."those WERE TEFILOT!"......
in your transparent attempt to cast shaddow of doubt on 1000s of pages of "proclamations" and detailed analasys of rambam, yes the Rebbeh worked hard to spoon feed pshat to his chasiddim via volumes of numerous sichos
and all you have to say to dismiss your "trust" in the "PRECISSION" of the Rebbe's words is
...."those WERE TEFILOT!"....
are you by any chance the same "spokesman" who publicly tried to play-down the Rbee's statements as:
......."his words are nebach desperate and wishful..... ....."after mem ches loosing his wife".... he is somewhat in fantacy land"......
these are words that were used by BIG chasidim with white beards!!
this phenomenon alone proves ONLY one thing!
that the FR and Rashab were Right when the foretold that before moshiach is NISGALEH, he will be resisted by BIG CHASIDIM with LONG WHITE BEARDS!!!
"CHAIRFOO IKVOS MESHICHECHO" RL
those predictions that you are fulfilling are NOT my predictions but rather our Rebeyim!
learn TAKEH (ACTUALLY) LEARN ALL THE SICHOS, BEFORE TRYING TO WHITE WASH THE MANY with the words used at the end of the sichos,
again you can only mislead those who are as IGNORANT AS YOU re the ACTUAL FULL CONTENT OF sichos nun alef and nun beis
yet you deserve a yasher koach for "volunteering" the role of "cherfoo ikvos meshichecho" to doubt the Rebbe's 1000s of pages of "fundemental reality updates!!!! and to try to cast all of it as one big "YEHE RATZOIN"
i'm sure b'dor hamidbar (Golden Calf) your words would have been widely popular too, if said re Mosheh rabeinu's words!
btw
this blog would be far more fun if you volunteered your real identity!
after all you should be comfort able in your beliefs, which are probably public recored any way!
Chaim Rosenberg Monsey NY
nun, nun alef, and nun beis, leading up to the situation we'r in now!
thanks in advance!
neutral BT
"...if he would have been from those who have already died, he would have been Daniel."
Obviously, my point still stands, if not stronger.
i know 100 percent what a rebbe is, but i dont want to tell someone else because they might get the wrong impression. but now i see that someone before answered him already
sorry u missed your shluff! but at least you read this.. it must have been so interesting
i.e. one may extract the klal w/o retaining the prat!
THE HALACHIC AND TALMUDIC PROCESS IS NOT OPEN TO AMEI HAORETZ, do you have smicha?
as for your loosing the debate (in this forum) suck it up! you win some you loose some, kabel ho-emes mimi sheomro" even if you think you are a bigger chossid, and he is a BT, take the message, ignore the messenger!
can anyone recomend to me book of references?
in english or spanish? todah
The fact that you didn't even bother to look up the exact chapter & page even though I provided that for you is leading me to think that all your other droshos are not well thought out.
What YOU are quoting is in the middle of Os 5 (pg 470) but what I was quoting was in Os 6 (pg 472) where the Rebbe adds MOSHIACH TZIDKEINU leaving no room for people like you to make dreidlach.
The fact that you didn't even bother to look up the exact chapter & page even though I provided that for you is leading me to think that all your other droshos are not well thought out.
What YOU are quoting is in the middle of Os 5 (pg 470) but what I was quoting was in Os 6 (pg 472) where the Rebbe adds MOSHIACH TZIDKEINU leaving no room for people like you to make dreidlach.
In 167 you gave one translation of Rashi and in 172 you give another which you say "seems to be" the correct one.
Well obviously if you are unsure what Rashi means in your
corrected version you're certainly unsure about your first translation.
Let's analyse your first (leaving your caps)
"If Moshiach WAS from those who have already died, then he WAS Daniel."
Now just taking the words themselves (without your spin with the caps) can simply mean that the gemora is saying that if Moshiach will be someone who has already died he will be Daniel, Rashi's term WAS simply means he was chosen to be the Moshiach and when the time comes he will be resurrected to take the yidden out of golus.
This interpretation actually supports my problem with your
hang-up of IS & WAS because once someone is chosen from sheishes yimei breishis to be the Goel he IS, WAS and WILL BE the Moshiach.
However, I will cut you some slack that indeed Rashi's loshon can be read a variety of ways, however when you find another Rishon, namely the Abarbanel, who clearly interprets the gemora like we just have, why do you davka wish to create a machlokes between Rashi & Abarbanel?
As to the Rambam which you say shows it's against halacha, I will state again, that is categorically wrong to say that the Rambam held that to say someone will be Moshiach after he dies is against halacha because the Rambam introduced the whole subject with the premise that one should not "expect" miracles and based on that he gives the criteria to determine who Moshiach is. The Rambam excludes the entire subject of a miraculous process. Theoretically had Ben Kuziva got up after being killed (yes even killed, I know the Rambam says Neherag but the Rambam was stating the fact) and continued the war and was matzliach, why should there be any reason he would be disqualified. The Rambam does not include such a scenario because the Rambam is a book of halochos in the practical world where we don't expect miracles and as the Rebbe said many times that the Rambam is talking in a case of LO zochu not Zochu which could present a different picture (although the Rebbe felt the seder will still remain somewhat but miraculous)
Besides, why would the Rambam need to spoonfeed us and tell us after CNN reported that Daniel got up, with his own t'chiyas hameisim, from his grave and was seen taking a taxi to Jerusalem to fight the milchomos hashem that he is moshiach.
I ask you another question, if the Rambam is the way you tell it why in Lk'S volume 35 Vayigash doesn't the Rebbe disqualify Dovid Hamelech from being Moshiach from the mere reason that he died already and death for itself is a disqualification! The Rebbe does NOT say that. He only disqualifies him because "techilas peulas melech Hamoshiach tzorich lihiyos kodem hageulah".
According to your understanding of the Rambam the Rebbe should have brought exactly what you brought in Reply 167 "if he did not succeed to the point [of building the Beis Hamikdash and gathering the Jews from all over] or he was killed, it is then known that this is NOT Moshiach, and he is just like all the kings from the House of Dovid who died."
But the Rebbe did NOT and that is enough proof that the Rebbe did not consider death a disqualification for one to be Moshiach Halachikly.
nun, nun alef, and nun beis, leading up to the situation we'r in now!
thanks in advance!
neutral BT
To # 31
"EVEN W/O the sichos, many non chabad Gedolim including Miller from Toronto were forced to admit (in public) that torah allows for moshiach min hameisim, and torah has many examples of Tzadikim who were thought to have died, but it was merely a test of emuna,"
From Rabbi Miller of Toronto you can't bring a valid proof. Since his interview with Mishpacha (when Belsky trashed Lubavitch), Miller privately started learning sichos and selected mamorim.
He is close with select Lubavitchers and is under their hashpaha. He has the greatest esteem for the Chabad Rov of Toronto.
AD KAN YOUR WORDS===========================
NOW LET ME ASK YOU:
you say in your post that Rabbi Miller has Chabad hashpaha! these are your words...
..........From Rabbi Miller of Toronto you can't bring a valid proof. Since his interview with Mishpacha (when Belsky trashed Lubavitch), Miller privately started learning sichos and selected mamorim......
THEN YOU WRITE THIS:
He is close with select Lubavitchers and is under their hashpaha. He has the greatest esteem for the Chabad Rov of Toronto............
MY RESPONSE TO BOTH THESE COMMENTS OF YOURS ARE
A)
YOU ARE SUGGESTING THAT A BITTERLY JEALOUS SNAG CAN BE TURNED AROUND BY SIMPLY LEARNING SELECTED MAAMORIM ETC WOW! WE SHOULD DEFINITELY PROMOTE THIS STRATEGY FOR THE LESS ANGRY SNAG-GEDOLIM OUT THERE!
ITS A SIMPLE "KAL VE-CHOMER"
MA DUCH SUCH A MISERABLE "FARBISINEH-SONEH" LUBAVITCH WAS ABLE TO HAVE SUCH A DRASTIC CHANGE OF HEART!
AL-ACHAS-KAMAH-VEKAMAH, THE MANY LOW LEVEL GEDOLIM WHO ARE NOT AS JEALOUS OF CHABAD!
B)
THE SINGLE LUBAVITCHER YOU MENTIONED HAS A MORE SIMILAR HASHKOFO TO RAV SHACH, THEN TO ANY CHABAD ROV IN THE WORLD!
I'M PRETTY SURE THAT SHACH HAS LEARNED MORE SICHOS NUN ALEF NUN BEIS THAN THE "CHABAD" ROV IN TORONTO,
THUS R. MILLER'S CLOSE RELATIONSHIP OR HASHPAHA FROM SUCH "LUBAVITCHERS" IS HARDLY THE CAUSE FOR HIS "RETRACTION"
BTW
HE WENT FROM SAYING ITS "KEFIRA" AND "APIKURSUS" TO ADMITTING THAT TORAH SOURCES ALLOW SUCH A BELIEF!
HE PASKEND THIS NOT ALPY CHASIDUS BUT ALPY NIGLAH!
how would u feel if you were a shliach, a rabbi, a respected pontiff in your community who publicly denounced the moshiach-ist belief as "against everything the rebbeh said"
then comes along the internet, and levels out the playing field , allowing all ppls access to information, that you once had to depend on your rabbi for,
rabbis are becomming increasingly less powerful over the BT community, thanks primerily to the advent and popularity of the internet,
why ask your rabbi, if you can get 90% of the worlds info online?!
this is a new reality for the shlichim and they need to adapt to this new fact,
they can no longer get away with being the veto, (the first and last word) the final "posek" on any question a "mekurav" asks!
for all those shluchim who went public against the moshiach movement, will have to quickly back pedal and clarify that they meant only to negate the crazies etc,
or perhaps the subject was to complex to be explained and defended on one foot
or that, the rebbeh really dident intend (foresee) for this info to get out into the public domain!
at any rate,
just as for mesnagdim its SUPER dificult to accept that they and there ancestors were living a lie re rejecting derech ha-chasidus, so to it is extremely humiliating and difficult to get up in public and acknowledge a mistake of this proportion!
i printed the whole thing out!
I have shown you that you don't know how to read a simple Rashi, and then you claim there's a precedent in Gemara for that?? That's your counter-argument??
Meanwhile, the grownups have been discussing sichos, see #108/#110, #160/#168. Bring any sicha on the subject, and I'll show you your ignorance. That's a promise.
In the wording of "yechi", add the word "shebidoreinu" after the word "HaMoshiach". Okay?
on the words in hilchos melochim of the Rambam, "im yaamod melech" the Rebbeh learns differently than you!!!!!!
lookup the haoros on this very subject where the Rebbeh crossed out the words "m'kan raya shtzorich lihiyos mi hachayim davka" and replaces that with, "SHEMOLACH KVAR"
once again your comment (while bright) are revealing of your considerable ignorance of the Rebbe's sichos in general, and specifically re pshat in the Rambam hilchos melochim!
you have been asked to adrees that repeadidly,
also you avoided to adress the fact that Rabbi Yol Kohn has teished the Sicha of "even hashsiys" as straight forward negation of death!!!!
do you dare question Rabbi Kahan's authoritativeness to translate the Rebbe's words as they were meant to be understood?!
how about the numerous Rabbis in CH and Arround the world who dont dissagry with your "deffenisve" twists of simple pshat in the Rambam! re "MOLACH KVAR" vs being CURRENTLY min hachayim!?
i will remain fear and not pile on any more questions before giving you a chance to answer the above!!
re RY Kahan, i respect his honesty to be able to tell you the meaning of the sicha, even though he himself struggles to accept it as fact!!
its one thing to have difficulty choosing the rebbe's words over your eyes apparence,
its another thing to not even know, WHAT the rebbeh said!
i apload R Kahan and Manis Friedman for being intellectually honest enough to admit what the rebbeh is saying, even if they dont feel on the "madreiga" to take the rebbe's words litteraly as fact overriding what they have seen 3 tamuz
J Stein Boston MA
Friend of chabad
but please type a little more carfully!
u meant to write "E-VEN-HA-SHE-SEE-AH"
i'm quite familiar with that sicha, it always rubbed me the wrong way, i'm glad to know that Reb Yoiel, understands it "kipshootoy"
the implication is that the rebbeh is 1. Not Dead, 2. Not buried!
is it a test of faith in "moshe's words" i dont know!
anyone care to pipe in please?
Lubavitchers don't always think alike, like any human being is G-d's world.
And if you are looking to define the difference of opinions in Lubavitch as camps, there are much more then just two.
And, if you are really a friend of Chabad as you say: then you would know better then spending $ on a debate.
are u smarter than Reb Yoel Kahan (who is far from a public Mishichist)
and read the link 193
Nevertheless, you (and #190) again show how you drey the Rebbe's words (or lack thereof, as the case may be) to fit your own agenda. "Shemolach kvar" DOESN'T mean that he's dead. It DOES mean that he has already been king, excluding a case where he wasn't yet a king. The fact that the Rebbe felt this wasn't a proof for "min hachayim davka" is the very reason I didn't mention it as such.
The fact that you didn't even bother to look up the exact chapter & page even though I provided that for you is leading me to think that all your other droshos are not well thought out.
What YOU are quoting is in the middle of Os 5 (pg 470) but what I was quoting was in Os 6 (pg 472) where the Rebbe adds MOSHIACH TZIDKEINU leaving no room for people like you to make dreidlach.
you had me there for a second, vnice try
i almost thought you actually had a sicha to prove you point!
interesting that your knowledge of sichos is as predictable, very limited in the recent sichos were most of the "chidushim" aka shift in plicy is elucidated, in great pain-staking detail!
again read the link above and if u still have questions i'll be hear waiting for you!
again u sound bright, but too bussie to have caught up on your sichos, and inyonei geula
here's a tip!
until you got around to covering all of nun nun alef nun beis, seek out someone like Reb Yoel Kahan, (someone in that league) to ask for guidance in your hashkafa on this matter, both re Nigla sources as well as Chasidus
btw dont feel bad! your not alone most successful shluchim have the same time constraints, hence i dont judge you or your hiskashrus!
u gdudes sure must b havin lots of fun
In 167 you gave one translation of Rashi and in 172 you give another which you say "seems to be" the correct one.
Well obviously if you are unsure what Rashi means in your corrected version you're certainly unsure about your first translation.
Let's analyse your first (leaving your caps)
"If Moshiach WAS from those who have already died, then he WAS Daniel."
Now just taking the words themselves (without your spin with the caps) can simply mean that the gemora is saying that if Moshiach will be someone who has already died he will be Daniel, Rashi's term WAS simply means he was chosen to be the Moshiach and when the time comes he will be resurrected to take the yidden out of golus.
This interpretation actually supports my problem with your hang-up of IS & WAS because once someone is chosen from sheishes yimei breishis to be the Goel he IS, WAS and WILL BE the Moshiach.
However, I will cut you some slack that indeed Rashi's loshon can be read a variety of ways, however when you find another Rishon, namely the Abarbanel, who clearly interprets the gemora like we just have, why do you davka wish to create a machlokes between Rashi & Abarbanel?
As to the Rambam which you say shows it's against halacha, I will state again, that is categorically wrong to say that the Rambam held that to say someone will be Moshiach after he dies is against halacha because the Rambam introduced the whole subject with the premise that one should not "expect" miracles and based on that he gives the criteria to determine who Moshiach is. The Rambam excludes the entire subject of a miraculous process. Theoretically had Ben Kuziva got up after being killed (yes even killed, I know the Rambam says Neherag but the Rambam was stating the fact) and continued the war and was matzliach, why should there be any reason he would be disqualified. The Rambam does not include such a scenario because the Rambam is a book of halochos in the practical world where we don't expect miracles and as the Rebbe said many times that the Rambam is talking in a case of LO zochu not Zochu which could present a different picture (although the Rebbe felt the seder will still remain somewhat but miraculous)
Besides, why would the Rambam need to spoonfeed us and tell us after CNN reported that Daniel got up, with his own t'chiyas hameisim, from his grave and was seen taking a taxi to Jerusalem to fight the milchomos hashem that he is moshiach.
I ask you another question, if the Rambam is the way you tell it why in Lk'S volume 35 Vayigash doesn't the Rebbe disqualify Dovid Hamelech from being Moshiach from the mere reason that he died already and death for itself is a disqualification! The Rebbe does NOT say that. He only disqualifies him because "techilas peulas melech Hamoshiach tzorich lihiyos kodem hageulah".
According to your understanding of the Rambam the Rebbe should have brought exactly what you brought in Reply 167 "if he did not succeed to the point [of building the Beis Hamikdash and gathering the Jews from all over] or he was killed, it is then known that this is NOT Moshiach, and he is just like all the kings from the House of Dovid who died."
But the Rebbe did NOT and that is enough proof that the Rebbe did not consider death a disqualification for one to be Moshiach Halachikly.
or is it just dinner time?
kol hakavod,!!
unless they agree not to use sichos or Daas Torah!
to all you learned mishichiasts, hats off you all sorta nearly converted me! i never knew the veracity of you arguments!
In any case, the one thing that's CLEAR from this Rashi is the word "hoyoh" TWICE which means PAST TENSE. In other words, he WOULD HAVE BEEN Moshiach. This is the SIMPLE MEANING of Rashi, and you are DISTORTING the words.
And your nice pshetel that it means he was chosen doesn't make sense at all. You literally would have to add the word "(hoyoh) nivchar" for that to make any sense (even then it's a major dochek, as Rashi would have still had to say: "if he was chosen from those who are dead, it IS Daniel). In addition, Rashi would have used the very same loshon for Rebbi as well (lo domi reisha l'seifa). And your accompanying explanation that he was chosen from "sheshes yemei breishis" is not fit for a kovetz pilpulim of the lowest order. If you're at all honest with yourself, you'll admit that your "teitch" is completely ridiculous.
As for the Abarbenel, you're right, there is no machlokes: he agrees as well that Moshiach can't be from the dead! This is brought in the Rebbe's words, R' Klein brought this, and I've been repeating it over and over in this thread: the Abarbenel says a dead person can be Moshiach if he gets up in techiya BEFORE Moshiach comes. From this it's evident that until he gets up, he IS NOT Moshiach.
So again, where is your source in the Torah that Moshiach can be from the dead? So far, I have nowhere.
Chayim
You're saying the same thing as me:
Halacha CANNOT be based on miracles. If that's the case, one MAY NOT say that the Rebbe IS Moshiach, as that goes against Halacha (as proven above). However, the Rebbe still MAY BECOME Moshiach (out of the realm of strict Halacha), based on a miracle. So we agree?
You will create a NEW BASIS IN HALACHA based SOLELY on the fact that the Rebbe gave an explanation which is EQUALLY as valid as another. Is that how you pasken Halacha?!
Not only that, but with bringing this he'orah you shoot yourself in the foot: If the Rebbe holds that Moshiach can be from the dead, why did he have to bring from the Yefei Anaf which explains that Dovid Hamelech can be Moshiach ONLY according to the opinion that Moshiach will come AFTER techiyas hameisim?? Unless you believe that the Rebbe can only be Moshiach according to that opinion as well (NOT how we hold)???
With respect,
Chayim
After tonight, I'm done. (You have till then to convert me.)
Chayim
if it is true that the Lubavitshir Rebby advocated the promulgation of this topic, that it be widely studied and understood, would it then not follow that such an event (properly promoted and executed) would serve to further the Rebbis wishes, would it not?
as for your comment re a multiplicity of views within the chabad collective,
c'mon now, i wasn't born last night and i'm quite familiar with the general divide within chabad, between the so called messianists and the anti-messiansts
perhaps you fear that such an event would only stoke the flames of "discord" rather than bring minds closer together!
i respectfully beg to differ, i submit that quite the contrary can be anticipated!
by a free and open exchange, lots of clarity and understanding can be achieved!
at the least:, an example of dignified and respectful dialog on this lightning-rod of a topic,
at the most: a monumental convergence and resolution of seemingly opposite paradigms!
either which way, the Rebbi's agenda of educating the masses in these sources, is benefited!
J Stein Boston MA
you'v clearly made a whole lot of progress, KOL HAKAVOD!
i have not porticipated in this forum until now, and i must say, as an observer, you are considerably intelligent! and a good run for the money!
non the less, the fact that these folks nearly converted you, in a matter of Hours, is very remarkable! to YOUR credit!
in all sincerity, i have never witnessed the combo of a bright-blogger who is also intellectual honest! in the world of "blogisphere"!
very impressive! you're slowly but surely coming around!
Again, you quote things of which you have absolutely no understanding. Did you even learn the Sicha??
I'll assume not, so we'll learn the relevant piece together. The following is an accurate synopsis of the Rebbe's words:
intro: The Nassi Hador is the shofet of that generation.
1. The practical application of this, is that every single person has within him a shofet as well.
2. It is our job to take the directives of the general shofet and - through the shofet within us - integrate it in every facet of our lives.
3. Additionally, we are the shofet of our household. Therefore, it is incumbent upon us to relay the teachings of the general shofet to our family as well.
4. Branching out further: it is our responsibility, as the shofet in our surroundings, to teach these things to those in our immediate and non-immediate reach.
5. Until ultimately (with the collective action of all the "shoftim" doing what they can in their part of the world), the entire world will be integrated completely with these teachings.
6. This is much like the "Even Hashesiya", which is everlasting, even more so than the Aron Hakodesh: Just like the Even Hashesiya is everlasting, so too there exists an actual shofet in every single generation, making the concept of "shofet" everlasting.
That is a basic (free) summary of the Rebbe's words.
This sicha, and especially this ois, is written at much length, and mixes different concepts liberally. I will not be so arrogant as to assume I know what the meaning of every word is. Nevertheless, it seems clear to me that the Rebbe is saying that the level of "shofet" within each and every person will allow for the continued existence, and consequent eternity, of the concept of "shofet".
Of course, if you want to base your entire belief system on what *you heard* R Yoel Kahn *may have said*, without knowing what he meant (as you yourself admit), maybe you should write him a ksav hiskashrus and get it over with.
Disclaimer: R' Yoel Kahn is a very smart man, who knows many sichos of the Rebbe. This is not meant to be degrading, to the contrary. However, I cannot comment on something he may or may not have said, without verifying and clarifying it first. This is especially when the people who are quoting him admit that they didn't necessarily understand him. Also remember, he is a fallible human being (*gasp*).
Hi Sholom here,
As much of your rebuttal is pure gehakt and we're going in circles I will not address those parts. However I don't understand what you are asking here:
You write:
"why did he have to bring from the Yefei Anaf which explains that Dovid Hamelech can be Moshiach ONLY according to the opinion that Moshiach will come AFTER techiyas hameisim?? Unless you believe that the Rebbe can only be Moshiach according to that opinion as well (NOT how we hold)???"
#1 Do you have another suggestion as to how Dovid Hamelech will get back to earth if he died other than be resurrected?
#2 what do you mean what WE hold?
compare the words of this clever spin-doctor to that of the rebbeh when explicitly hilights the fact that even ahashesiya does not have "geniza"
all those who havent read the sicha inside, i advise you do so, never take anyone elses' "summery
compare these words to the actual sicha!!
........Just like the Even Hashesiya is everlasting, so too there exists an actual shofet in every single generation, making the CONCEPT of "shofet" everlasting.....
you claim that the Rebbe's words are 100%
then you acknowledge that the Rebbeh leaves no room for dor shmini (visavi geula and a new nosi)
hence you acknowledge that thr Rebbeh is still our nossi
then you also admit that the rebbeh proclaimed (not just in bossi legani) that we are the final dor of galus and the first of geulah"
again you dont question the Rebbe's words!
then you admit that by (chasidus) definition the nossi hador is a neshama b'guf! (according to many maamorim w/o a living nossi hador or Rosh Bnei.Yisroel the world and existence will cease to exist)
hence
the nossi is neshama b'guf, regardless of 3 tamuz's appearance!
again this logic is simple to understand, even if difficult to digest!
btw
why did you conveniently skip any mention of geniza when summerizing the even hashesiya sicha??
take a moment and answer me, is this the first time that you have opened a sicha of nun aleph and nun beis? bec i do witness a interesting evolution in your comments from hardened anti, who simplistically renders all sichos after mem ches as wishful "yehi rotzons" to the more recent comments where you have clearly surrendered a lot of ground, namely the issue of does halacha allow such a belief, and whether the rebbe had a distinct shift in policy in the last preparatory years before 27 ada
As for your question: We hold that when Moshiach will come there will be a period of time when we live in Eretz Yisroel beharvacha, in a quasi-normal life, only with different focus etc. Then there will be a second period, the start of which will be Techiyas Hameisim. (For someone who berates others for not being fluent in the Rebbe's sichos, I'm quite surprised you don't know this, as it's quite widespread in sichos etc.)
The Yefei Anaf explains that Moshiach can only be from the dead (Dovid in our case) according to the opinion that says that techiyas hameisim will happen BEFORE Moshiach (unlike what we hold).
Any other questions?
that the Baalei Niglah across the spectrum, (chasidish - livish) allow for it!
the Baalei Chasidus, mashpiim, etc including Rabbi Ginsburg Require it as a natural and obvious concussion of chasidus b'chlal, bossi legany, and the sichis b'frat,
are you smarter than all of them?
both in Nigla and Chasidus?
i'm not soo arrogant,
but i an very humbled by those who have simple emunas tzadikim, having no dificulty believing that this is indeed the last generation, and the Rebbeh being our Nossi is thus Moshiach to be soon Nisgaleh
Learn chassidus , learn inyanim of geulah but, only the ABISHTER will decide who and when Moshiach comes.
Fighting about it will never help to bring him.
Don't lose sight of the goal - do what you need to bring Moshiach now, don't argue about who and when he comes.
Don't add anything to what the Rebbe is saying.
But you believe too greatly in yourself to allow empirical evidence to affect your calculations.
Ultimately it comes down to who is the most trustworthy of these people, and who has the least personal agendas.
the punchline keeps returning to the same montra "learn inyonei m..." you must give them more credit for rmaining focussed on trying to persuade their crytics to "open their eyes" and learn the sichos!
btw
arguing is useful if its l'shmah'
devorim hayotzim min halev...
i believe they mean to encourage the opposition to realize the need to learn... in order to really "live" in the new reality (moshiachdiga reality)
The yehi ratzon statement was a general rule that applies to many many so-called "proofs". That's what I said originally, and that's what I maintain.
From the beginning I maintained that it's Halachically unacceptable to claim with certainty that the Rebbe is currently Moshiach, but that it is acceptable to hope that he will be Moshiach by rising in a miraculous techiya before Moshiach comes. I didn't change this view.
Finally, the only mention I made of a so-called "shift in policy" was that there was one, but much greater and much different than you ever imagined. In other words, NOT what you think: that the Rebbe changed the focus of the Moshiach campaign to disseminate who Moshiach is. That's NOT the "shift in policy", rather it is something much more important, universal, and groundbreaking. That was my view coming into this, and that's my view going out.
My question is, if you weren't even able to "halt kup" through this conversation, how are you able to do so through any of the long, extremely difficult, sichos of "nun alef and nun beis"? Wait, I know the answer: you can't. And that's why you make so many mistakes in their translation.
for a jew, and especially a chossid, there is nothing more conclusive and factual (or "empirical") as what the Torah says, ...what a Rebbeeh says... what a Posek saays etc etc
"olamos b'hischadshus" and "elokus b'pshitus"
the given is the words of "ben amram" the doubt is on our eyes when they seem to suggest the opposite of Torah Reality,
(think of mosheh on the mountain, the golden calf... most jews followed the "empirical" approach though it conflicted with Moshe;s statements...)
You say I'm going away from the simple pshat when it's clearly in the reverse for the following reasons:.
A. Rashi is translating the words in the gemora
“àé îï îúéà äåà” (ee min maysaya HU) If he IS from the dead. The gemora does not say HAYA, and therefore, especially if you have a question how to understand Rashi you try to fit his words into the simple translation of the words of the gemora especially when they clearly make sense without stretching whatsoever, and although I didn't say this before, I'll say it now, that on someone who already died we generally say WAS rather than IS, it's just the normal way of talking, hence the word Haya.
B. In Talmud Yerushalmi (Brachot 17a, Perek 2 Mishnah 4) we find
an almost identical teaching: "If he is from the living, his name is Dovid; if he IS from the deceased his name is Dovid." which the Pnei Moshe, explains it thus: "If he is from the living, his name is Dovid; if he IS from the deceased, he IS Dovid himself."
Now according to your pshat in Rashi these gemoras don't match and you have created another machlokes between Bavli & Yerushalmi which we try to avoid, but according to mine they are basically identical.
C. When you are not sure about a pshat (and you originally agreed that you were uncertain as to the exact way to understand this Rashi) isn't it the common practice that if you find other Rishonim & Achronim that interpret it one way that that should be the one you select, otherwise who are you relying on, your own pshat? Do the following sources for this gemora not persuade your understanding at all?
The Abarbanel writes:
"Do not be amazed by the fact that Moshiach can be one of those who will rise in Techiya (resurrection), because this possibility was already considered by our sages in Gemara Sanhedrin."
(Abarbanel, Yeshuas Meshicho, Iyun Sheni, Perek Alef)
The same is found in the following 3 sources:
Sedei Chemed, Peas Sadeh-Maareches Alef, Os Ayin
Pnei Moshe on the Yesrushalmi (quoted above)
Midrash Rabba on Eicha, 1:51
D. Look at the very next memra in the gemara "omar rav yehudah omar rav: Hashem will raise up another Dovid for us as it is written But they shall serve Hashem their G-d and Dovid their king, whom I will raise up unto them, not I raised up but I will raise up is said. Rav Papa said to Abaye: But it is written And my servant Dovid shall be their prince forever?
Now I ask you what was the makshan, Rav Papa, thinking? He obviously deduced from the posuk that Dovid will reign forever as Moshiach which means Moshiach will have to come from the dead. Now if Rashi was not of that view at all, don't you think Rashi should have interjected over here and told us, wait a minute, it doesn't mean literally resurrected, as there's no precedence for that in gemora in Judaism, but like the Rebbe explains in lk"s v 35 Vayigash that it means through a gilgul? But no, Rashi is silent. I would think that speaks volumes and that the reason he is silent here is because there's no chidush at all as Rashi himself just told us that that is the pshat of mimaysaya.
E. This whole discussion is a result of the new sefer of Rabbi Klein whom you seem to greatly admire as a gaon etc., as you quote and praise him in your posts, is it not a kchucha utlelula on you that you choose not to learn pshat in this Rashi as he does? See his sefer first page 2nd to last paragraph "After techias hameisim and those who rest in the dust will arise and then one of them will be Moshiach, either Daniel AND AS RASHI WRITES IN HIS FIRST PIRUSH"
Sholom
crumbelling bec, as time passes and ppl get better informed a number of prominant Rabbonim, Chabad and Not Chabad have been forced to retract their reflexive statements against chabad's belief!
today you'd be Hard pressed to find a single credible "Dayan Rov or Psek, who would claim that the belief in the Rebbeh as moshiach is heretical or baseless,
as for us chasidim,
i;ll revert to a famous quote from Reb Yoel K.
That "Halacha" doesn't negate the Belief, (or allows for it)
and "Chasidu" Demands this concussion ("chasidus iz dus mechayev")
are you more qualified than Reb Yoel K? (the Rebbeh thought he was good enough to digest chasidus for His chasidim)
B. The point is moot, as I've already shown you that the Rebbe takes the position of the Yefei Anaf who holds that this opinion is not l'halacha (look it up if you didn't understand what I said).
C. Not if the words Rashi uses specifically negate such an approach. As to your harboring on the fact that I admitted that I didn't understand this Rashi: maybe you missed it: I UNDERSTAND THE RASHI. And yes, it's the only way to understand it (if you want it to make sense).
D. That's very cute, because the Rebbe asks this very question in the very sicha you quote, and answers (not as you say (though it's connected), but) that Rav Papa never meant that the original Dovid would be Moshiach, rather they were talking about two different levels in Moshiach, one related to Dovid and one not.
E. The kchucha utelula is that you missed the third paragraph of the teshuva.
One thing I agree with you, though, is that we're going in circles. I can only hope your honesty will lead you to discover the truth.
"The Yefei Anaf explains that Moshiach can only be from the dead (Dovid in our case) according to the opinion that says that techiyas hameisim will happen BEFORE Moshiach (unlike what we hold)"
is embarassing for a lamdan,
show that whole post 223 to anyone vos ken abissil lernen in Lubavitch and they will laugh at you, even if you know what you're saying, which it sounds like you don't, you're certainly writing it very krum.
The Yefei Anaf is only explaining how Dovid Hamelech is going to be transported to planet earth and arrive in time before his innauguration as King Messiah, as after all were talking about someone who passed away. But if you say that bias hamoshiach comes first how's he gonna get here in time?!?
Also? Newsflash: Rabbi Klein is a very, very credible posek. Your collective sheer ignorance and apathy to this point is extremely shameful.
May Hashem grant that you do what you are supposed to do to help bring Moshiach.
Sholom, it's been nice engaging with you, keep it strong.
Sincerely,
Chayim
yasher koiach rabbi klein on bringing up such a controversial subject
even those manis-friedman and those sorts D"L articles dont generate so many comments! obviously chevlei moshiach!
yechi hamelech hamoshiach! i believe the rebbe is moshiach!
Chayim
btw i think further comments should (for the sake of clarity to readers like me) be entitled by the person writing them 'meshichist' or 'anti' so it will be clear from the start where theyre heading
CHASIDUS = forces it!
= A CHOSSID believes that which is Mutar Alpy torah and M'chuyov alpy Sichos-Chassidus!
Why are you trying to fool people who may not be smart enough to understand his words. Is this Derech Hatorah? Is it just because this forum is anonymous that you can be mishaker and hope to fool the ameratzim readers?
Having said that, when we are trying to understand a Rashi in gemora, it is ridiculous for you to constantly come back to Halacha (as you say in B "its a moot point") when Rashi doesn't necessarily write his pirushim l'halacha, we are trying to establish first and foremost if there is a precedence in valid mikoros of Torah to say that Moshiach can be min hameisim and from the Yerushalmi, Yifei Anaf etc it is very clear that yes and therefore I brought the Yerushalmi which is almost identical to the memra in Sanhedrin to help you understand the Rashi, no moot point at all.
As to D. anyone will tell you that the Rebbe's pshat is NOT the SIMPLE pshat of the gemora. The Rebbe is wanting to fit the gemora according to the Rambam. And bear in mind that the Rebbe himself started off saying "ulichorah" it can't mean Dovid himself, and then the Rebbe shlogs it up by bringing the Yesrushalmi and the Yifei Anaf that show that Dovid will come back as Moshiach btchiyas Hameisim and in order to fit the Rambam the Rebbe concludes "V'yesh lomar". Now we as Chassidim consider a V'yesh lomar with very high regard but the lishonos of the Rebbe mean a whole lot when trying to understand, bderech halimud what these gemoros mean.
And like many questions you have dodged or failed to answer, you have not responded to my question if the Rebbe felt L'halacha Moshiach cannot come from the dead why does the Rebbe in this heora lk's 35 not say right out that the reason Dovid cannot be Moshiach is because he died and Rambam says "Im neherag.."
Obviously the Rebbe did NOT consider death for itself a disqualification and the reason Dovid can't be the man is because "techilas Peulas.."
This by the way is Reb Yoels explanation as to why when the Rebbe was confronted with the question in 5710 how can he claim that his FIL will be Moshiach after he passed away when we know Techiyas Hameisim will only come later and to this the Rebbe brings the gemora in Avoda Zora that "Zuti D'is bechu Michaye Meisim". Why didn't he simple bring the other gemora that when Moshiach comes "Moshe V'Aharon Imohem" that some people will merit a techiya in the beginning and therefore Moshiach, his FIL will be amongst them? And Reb Yoel answers that if one is resurrected in the ofan of "Zuti D'is bechu.." one still fits the requirement of the Rambam of "techilas peulas.."
Sholom
I GOTTAT RUN NOW!
now you recognize his lack of compitance to be relevant to a Torah discussion, in this topic where HE (rk) has not much familarity, or experties (in his track record!
why would he print a sefer, before at least studying the relevant sichos on how the rebbeh learn pushuteh pshat?!
that is not just poor judgement but a contradiction of his very own statements re the Rebbe's Gadlus in Torah,
he and Reb Mordechai Eliyahu have both declearde the Rebbeh as the undisputed Greatest lamdon in our generation on par with the vilna gaon and all of the Rishonim,
Reb M Eliyahoo, said of the Rebbeh, that for 100 years no gaon has had the b'kius of the Lubavitcher Rebbh,, "the entire torah is open in front of his eyes as if he is reading from inside"!!!
so why would RMK, not first read up the reabbe's precise analysis of the Rambam's text?!!
infear of Rabbi Wolpo producing a rebuttal seffer, which would make mints meat out of his arguments and pshat!
RK will publish his retraction, as the ONLY way do save his legacy as a credible gadol in other topics of Halacha,
Chaim Meir, Brookly NY (i'm a fan of Chabad and Rabbi MK shlit"a)
i dimly recall a comment a few tens ago, where u say (unless by coincidense its a diff chayim) that ur stopping commenting by sunday night. (5/18/2009 12:07:01 AM), if im not mistaken, is monday
its good! stay on it! you and lots others will probably get to learn a lot and see all kinds of opinions.
and im a bit confused at what you are. a meshichistt?
btw, see article, where it says "Reported first on COLlive, the ruling was heatedly debated in over 200 comments and on other Jewish websites. Some supported, others were outraged by the statement." like "WOW!! OVER 200 COMMENTS!" here we are at 250... :) lol
its ur choice if u want to be here or not
no one forcing u
ur boss might be angry at u if u dont show up to work. although i do say that reading these comments are very, er, educational lets say. gives you inspiration,
we loooove your uncensored editing!
unlike the vusiznies and the others where they only just one side
i'm sortof half snagy and half belz and i never had the chance to hear the other side!!
click
http://collive.com/show_news.rtx?id=3529
i'm referring to your opening line of Yechi...
thats not the appropreate use!
btw i accept your point, regardless
i'm not surprised at all at the slanted reporting of vosizneis
Just use this rule: if a post doesn't have proper sentence structure, syntax, grammar and spelling, as well as reasoned arguments, it's not me.
Chayim
i have a feeling u r behind those as well, so u can generate the illusions of being a "victim" nebach nebach misrepresented when your arguments fall flat!
dont use this as a tactic to skirt the overall issue!
nice try!
i beg mechila
i really did not have that in mind... im so sorry!
my whole comment was that with a afterthought of the second part
oy i feel so bad :(
btw r u a meshichist? just curious. no need to answer if u dont want to
its totally natural to feel upset! at collive for facilitating an OPEN 2 sided debate!
even allowing bitter comments like yours in, even though they are useless to any of the solid arguments above!
collive live deserves a yashar koach for allowing such an overdue venue to be had!
better late than never!
all whilst at th very next breath you brand yourself as the "thoughtful + reasonable" kind!
these were your desperate words:
...."they will never see reason"....
implication that your "reasons" are too sophisticated for this blogesphare!!
thanks for insulting the intelligence of 90,000 readers who according to public records frequent this site!
i suspect your bitterness has more todo with the lack of robust counter arguments on yourside,
and not about the anarchy you decry!
btw
i'm no mishiachist! merely a very curiouse and open-minded, student of Yeshiva U. NY
dont worry at all for me i live in lakewood! they wont get it!
simple and to the point!
this was the post: (241)
241
#233 u somed it up!
HALACHA = alowes
CHASIDUS = forces it!
= A CHOSSID believes that which is Mutar Alpy torah and M'chuyov alpy Sichos-Chassidus!
ther are no less than 50 good sources to lookup, just by examining the "mentioned" texts! quoted above!
it cuts straight to the most realistic and tangible aspects of "inyonei m v'g"
i wasent kidding in this comment, i'm doing exactly that with my chavrusa!
in the interest of recapturing kavod lubavitch i will be emailing this link to 12 of my litfisher relatives!
one click but lots of results (they will certainly turn-it viral which is great for chabad!)
no longer the loony "kofer" cousin!
Disputes
Passion
Religion
Party-politics
Personal attacks
Insightful arguments
Inside info
Celebs (Yoel K)
Destiny (Messiah)
Mystery (Geula)
Kabbala
Misnagdim
Torah learning (no bitul torah guilt)
Gezhe vs NewB
RECORD BREAKING HISTERY MAKING NUMBER OF COMMENTS
veculhu vechulhu
colliv ROX
i'm guessing that you are a (gleeful) mishichist!
i think you may want to contact a Rabbi in Flatbush, Rabbi Zalman Liberow!
who shares your aspiration, of setting up a orginize public debate, where all possible arguments and sources have a final face-off
i do know that he faild to get it executed bc NO ONE from the Anti camp would agree to volunteer, not even as a team of 3 or more!
You may lookup his contact info, as this forum is quite public
Mendy K NY
"Hamaase hu haikker"
102 compared to 270?
everyone, heads up! moshiach is coming! (i wont force my beliefs on all you antis, but i believe the rebbe is moshiach) so now, i agree with 275, hamaase hu ha'ikar, take on a special hachlata to bring moshiach NOW mamash!!
lets all together strengthen our b'tachon and emuna, and most importantly to DO B'POEL MAMUSH... all our avoda B'SIMCHA, B'ACHDUS, imbued with the absolute certainty of the Rebbe's words!
geula NOW B'HISGALUS!
I'M SURE "MISHICHIST AND ANTI... VECHULHU....
lets try to break the record of 300 comments ok? were not to bad, as of now there are 278, only 22 left!
probably this is a record of any chabad site, not just COLLIVE
its in our hands now!
so will anyone with toichin out there write something relevant?
lets all just call ourselves chasidim, chasidey-chabad!
and then lets strive to live up to that "title" by,
#1 Doing all mitzvos b'hidur
#2 Daily kvius b'nigla u'b'chasidus
#3 Daily kvius b'limud inyonei Geula...
#4 Daily Chitas + Rambam
#5 Daily Tzedoko before Shacharis Mincha
#6 Daily Mikva (if possible)
#7 Friday Mivtzoyim
saying yechi hamelech or adoineneinu, which ever your mashpia guides you to
thanks to collive for keeping the exchange productive and somewhat respectful, kol hakavod!
but yes! as of now (there are 285) only 15 left
while collive's purpose at the outset, in posting this news item, was probably journalistic!
and not about holding a special debate forum persay!
it seems (to me at least) that something very special and worthy happened here! that has NEVER yet been done "properly".
never before since gimil tamuz, has there been such a public, free open exchange of arguments pro n anti, centered around the framework of "Torah-sources"
in a way, which allowed both sides to get a better understanding of the other's thinking and common ground!
never before have i witness a (relatively) civilized intellectual give n take which clearly resulted in an overall "CONSENSUS"!
namely that:
#1) we chasidim all agree that the rebbe is nosi doreinu
#2) we ... agree that "shchina mdaberes mitoch groinoi"
#3) we ... agree that the rebbe is "Rosh, Bnei, Yisroel,"
#4) we ... agree that 3 tanuz is not as simple as it apares to the eye! the rebbe is still leading w open "nisim" more than before 3 tamuz
#5) we ... agree that halacha allows the rebbe to still be moshiach
#5) we ... agree that the sichos 51+52 = this is THE "DOIR"!
#6) we ... agree that the sichos 51+52 = "higia zman geula"
#7) we ... agree that the sichos 51+52 = a new tkufa (policy)
#8) we ... agree that by learning inyonei m... = "open your eyes"
#9) we ... agree that ALPI bosi-l'gani+sichos 51+52 = DOR Shvii = DOR geula,
#10) we ... agree that the rebbeh want "b'ofen-hamiskabel"
#11) we ... agree that the rebbeh values "achdus" more than any other mivtza!
#12) we ... agree that with Torah-sources in a sensible manner we can regain chabad's legitimacy to the "frum-velt" (within the pail of Torah orthodoxy)
#13) we ... agree that via "aseh lecha rav" and when appropriate igros kodesh, the rebbeh gets his answers to his chasidm
feel free to modify (add or edit) this list as it reflects my personal summery of the common "undisputed" ground
Geulah Now! b'shleimus Amein!
this list only works for chasidim of the rebbeh!
re chabads belief in the Rebbe as Moshiach:
1.HALACHA = allows it
2.CHASIDUS = states it
thus
why a CHOSSID believes it! since
alpi NIGLA its "MUTOR"
and
alpi CHASIDUS its "A FACT"
..."this list only works for chasidim of the rebbeh"...
I'M SATISFIED WITH BEING ABLE TO DEFEND MY BELIEF AS "PERMITTED" BY HALACHA,
I DONT WISH TO IMPOSE MY BELIFS ON ANYONE ELSE
I JUST WANT THEM TO STOP ATTACKING ME AS A KOFER FOR MY BELIEF!
chabad never paid attention to them!
al yoivesh mipnei hamaligim!
that each camp (though seemingly closer than ever) needs to learn from the other,
in my humble opinion the following "QUALITIES" seem to be possessed by either one camp or the other,
A) The Anti camp: seem good at PR, Marketing and "presentability" (great for Kiruv and Fundraising)
lets dub this "DELIVERY"
B) The Mishiachist camp, seems less adept at present-ability and more astute at Substance and Ideology! aka getting "it" right! "on-message" ... Idealistic and Talmudic!
in distilling and detecting the holistic picture, -a knack for "TRUTH"
("principled" with little concern for PC or Public approval)
lets dub this "SUBSTANCE"
Summery:
"DELIVERY" vs "SUBSTANCE" ....WHAT vs HOW
i'll leave the rest up to your imagination for implication and application...
(hint: think symbioses, synergy,)
J Stein Boston MA
(i assume you are a doc)
i have an editorial suggestion, you should switch the order of the wording in your Summery:
instead of...
"DELIVERY" vs "SUBSTANCE"
should be
"SUBSTANCE "vs "DELIVERY"
sequence! "What" before "How"
no qualms with the "substance" of your "message" only with your "delivery" (execution: would be a good word to insert, as in MISSION vs EXECUTION... or GOAL vs STRATEGY... or AGENDA vs IMPLEMENTATION...)