Jan 5, 2015
'Taking a Break From Dating'
Illustration photo by Atalia Katz

From the COLlive inbox: A mother of 2 single girls has had it with the washed-up excuse from older bochurim for not dating.

By Miriam

"Sorry, but he is not dating right now."

Not dating? How does he plan on getting married if he's not dating? He is 30 years old and from what I heard from a friend, he's smart and accomplished. The basic details sounded suitable for my daughter.

A mutual friend said he's taking a break right now. Sounds fair. Dating is exhausting and mentally draining. My daughter told me many times she was sick of dating.

Two months later I decided to give this boy another try.

"Sorry," I was told, "he is busy right now."

If things don't work out, let's be in touch, I replied. Six weeks later I followed up and was told that he just finished dating someone and is not interested in going out again. "He needs some time off again."

The next bochur I looked into was 32. The response to my inquiry was that he is extremely burned out from the whole dating scene. Oh, and "He isn't really interested in going out, unless he has a good enough reason."

We looked into another bochur who was 27 years old. He is not doing the "dating thing" anymore.

I am a mother of two wonderful and talented girls, ages 25 and 27. If you are wondering if maybe something is wrong with them or our family: We had another name come up, and without even hearing my daughter's first or last name, he also said, "he is not up to dating right now."

So let me ask you, dear single boys out there: What is going on with you?!

You are burned out, it's tough, I get it. My daughter, and other girls out there, are burned out too. It takes two to date, you surely know. How do you become so blase about the most important step in your life and for your future?

My daughter is burnt out but she continues anyways. The clock is ticking and she doesn't have the privilege of being able to stop dating. She is willing to risk her heart and her pride, again and again, until she finds her right one. But for that she needs a bochur who is not "on a break."

Unfortunately you are not just affecting yourselves. You are affecting all the girls out there waiting to get married and build a Jewish home. By taking a break you are inadvertently forcing your future wife to prolong getting married! Why cause her that pain? Why push off happiness for both of you?

Please, I beg of you boys, get back out there. If the girl isn't for you, say no and move on. Don't take breaks, don't drag your feet and prolong your happiness and your future. If you told a girl recently you are on break, and she seems suitable, call them back now. Set it up and move on up!

May we hear of many Simchas very soon.

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Opinions and Comments
1
rediculous
seems these guys just dont want to date your daughters for whatever reason and probably the excuses are rather stupid but I wouldn't even give these guys another moment. Move on is right. Why even care about these individuals who obviously have commitment or mommy issues.and who knows what other issues.So why focus on them?Or if they are not interested in you,then the whys do not matter.There have to be many more suitable men out there.
(1/5/2015 11:17:50 PM)
2
Why are those girls still single?
Is the mother aware of the reasons why her daughters are still single? Was the mother overly picky until now? Are the girls picky? Bochurim know which people to stay away from. Maybe it's time the mom changed her attitude?
(1/5/2015 11:26:39 PM)
3
first a mom then a shadchan
i get both sides. as a mom, i see my kids are just so burnt out because they are looking for something that they had at home and don't see out there so much really. as a shadchan, i see the boys and girls are so sick and tired. they don't know what to do to make it happen anymore. if the boy wants to continue, the girl doesn't and versa visa. it's hard out there no matter what but the trick is not to drag your feet, not to look for the impossible and to be real to yourself and others. i wish everyone good news with the ultimate being moshiach now.
(1/5/2015 11:27:55 PM)
4
Option
I know a 26 year old Bochur going on 27 in a few months who is open to dating. I don't know what the proper way to contact me would be but if you are open to emailing me please email ben613247@gmail.com
(1/5/2015 11:31:52 PM)
5
Another reason....
The thing is I don't think it's necessarily taking a break. A lot of guys are successful has friends as girls. They have the best of both worlds. That is just the excuse they are telling their mothers or shadchanim. they don't need to commit long term to anyone. Girls are making it easy for boys these days. So why settle and get married and have to commit??? When life is good single...
(1/5/2015 11:32:10 PM)
6
Agree 100%
Agree 100%
(1/5/2015 11:41:41 PM)
7
Sharing a thought
Although if the case is as you put it, your response is quite real and logical.

On the flip side maybe it's the other sides polite way of saying no....

There's a big world, with a lot of guys, it's never good to get stuck and have a hang up on indaviduals..

Hatzlacha!
(1/5/2015 11:41:52 PM)
8
100% - keep on going!
The Rebbe says "Machzir achar aveidoso" - " To look like one looks for a lost object." Besides for all the segulos (yiras shomayim, tzedoka to achnasas kalla etc) one needs to be very pro-active, this is part of the keili too!
(1/5/2015 11:43:47 PM)
9
amen to the Simchas....
Their could be another total different reality why this boy is not dating...Don't give up, the true Bochu(rim) who wants to live a life of Torah Mitzvohs, free of the terrible influences will show up soon.
May you marry off both your daughters this year!
(1/5/2015 11:45:55 PM)
10
Dating?
Maybe, you shouldn't be so desperate to push your daughters into a loveless marriage, just for the sake of marriage?? Maybe, this is your problem that you should deal with.
(1/5/2015 11:46:51 PM)
11
A Bocher Ready to Go Out
I have a bocher who is not interested in taking a'break" and is
willing to go out with someone who is suitable for him.
contact hh18hh@gmail.com
(1/5/2015 11:48:51 PM)
12
awesome dude
I know a 28 year old bochur going on 22..... :)
contact yirasshomayim613@gmail.com
(1/5/2015 11:51:14 PM)
13
Dear Miriam
The answer is very simple. Start looking into younger guys.

Chabad boys are completing the system earlier these days and are thus maturing, on a worldly level, much quicker. There are 21-22 year-olds ready to date girls aged a few years older than them.

Believe me, it's true.

Why limit a girl's prospects due to her age..?

Wish you all the best with your princesses.
(1/6/2015 12:08:20 AM)
14
ch resident
i just want u to know that a lot of the time the boy knows nothing about the shidduch and the shadchan is the one that is saying these things. This is what a shadchan is all about. Another thing the shadchanim would say is if ur daughter doesnt want this boy then she will never get married. I think its about time something is done about this.
to #2 if someone is not married when she is 22 doesnt mean she is picky. It could be that whoever she went out with were just not shayach. Every person is going to get married when they r supposed to whether they r 18 or 22 or even 30. Its extremely direspectful to blame the mother or the girl for being picky when clearly in Hashems eyes this is not the time for her to become a kallah
(1/6/2015 12:10:12 AM)
15
Sorry about the delay
My wife was suggested to me 5 years earlier but I was not willing to travel. I felt bad 5 years later for the delay ... but it was all Bashert. Check out mendy pelin's vidio "turned down for what"
(1/6/2015 12:18:44 AM)
16
well written
i cannot agree more, thanks for putting it out there
(1/6/2015 12:24:05 AM)
17
positive attitude
you gotta find that guy who is willing to go out with your daughter
.... don't spend time rebuking boys who are on vacation .... ...... not worth your energy
have faith in hashem - it is all about timing
the right boy will want to date your daughter at the right time
if he does not want you then you do not want him
(1/6/2015 12:48:33 AM)
18
oh please
stop trying to control everyone around you. no one has to date just because you say "date". I am an older single girl and I take breaks. Yes, I want to get married, but I am not sitting around waiting for that to happen. I have a busy, full, successful, fulfilling life in many ways (b"h!) and I hate when people like you insinuate that I have no right to take a break. I would much rather wait to date a guy who took a break while he was busy with the rest of his life, than date a guy who is always available because he has no life.
(1/6/2015 1:09:37 AM)
19
Other side of the story
I am a 29 year old bochur from a very frum family. I have both a yeshiva and a secular education. I am not married because I acted inappropriately when I was younger. There is no way I could date or marry a frum girl without exposing my extended family to the ridicule and shame that I brought upon myself. It was deemed best that I avoid dating so my nieces and nephews (over 20 so far) can have a shot at getting a decent shidduch without having my negative actions hanging over my family's reputation.

Once a bochur does something wrong, there is zero forgiveness in the frum world. Everybody wants to judge or find a perfect shidduch, but the problematic guys and girls are well aware of how harsh a bad reputation can be on an entire extended family. Who wants to marry a guy with a bad history? I love my family more than I love myself. Dating is not worth the risk for me.

If you are so eager to find a shidduch, please do not look at the bochurim who leave the Jewish communities and live by themselves in the middle of nowhere. Those are the ones who can't get married for serious reasons and wish to remain private. I really wish I could get married, as it really is tough living by myself and I'm not willing to marry a non-Jewish girl, (both because of my family's reputation and because I believe in doing teshuva). I know my own mother has had to make excuses for me, but the unfortunate truth is is that I have a very painful and unpleasant story behind me, a story that disqualifies me from living a meaningful life. It's not my mother's or family's fault, it's mine, so I humbly request that you be more sensitive to mother's with problem children. You have no idea how horrible it is to have to make excuses.
(1/6/2015 1:12:57 AM)
20
We got caves
I do this all the time! You think you just "go out"? Cuz your supposed to get married? And because your daughters clock is ticking? we guys have a right to go into our cave just as your daughter has the "right" to her woman stuff. When I feel the right one in the right time will come then I will date her.
You guys don't get it. Us guys don't run our lives based on your daughters biological clock. We run it on our own clock. Their are always more girls popping up in the market its like a never ending conveyor belt. - and if your daughter wants to hop on with the ride then she's welcome. Unless she would rather stand at the cashier register and watch the belt go by
(1/6/2015 1:18:56 AM)
21
pulease!
Really? As a single guy kinda in that situation, my message is to bug off. We'll date & get married when we want to. Nothing good will come out of you forcing a guy to date your daughter. In the right time, the right guy will come around. Until then, lay off blaming guys for having lives outside dating!
(1/6/2015 1:20:00 AM)
22
WOW #19
That's intense! The courage it takes to sacrifice your life for everyone else. I don't even know how to respond or what to say. There is someone out there for you too...I sure hope so. I wish you all the brochos in finding your way in life, a way that makes you happy and fulfilled. Sending good thoughts and tefillos your way.
(1/6/2015 1:29:12 AM)
23
livibg with the time- the parsha time
Amram quit, took a break and.... the rest is history
(1/6/2015 1:32:48 AM)
24
2 comment 18
So how about a break & wait till ur 40 !! How's that !!
(1/6/2015 1:44:15 AM)
25
A few random pointers
There are plenty of bocherim and girls that barley get any or no suggestions.

The few suggestions...can in many cases be completely not shayich....We all know about them.

Dating can be very emotionally (and in some cases, even financially) draining.
(1/6/2015 2:00:51 AM)
26
What happened to...
...Yiras Shomayim? Was it lost somewhere along the way, from Samarkand to Brooklyn? To wit: Is there anyone who still believes that the shadchan is just a golem, merely a shliach to mention this name for that name. Where did the idea originate? In the not-very-deep recesses of the shadchan's mind?
As it says in the Chumash with Rivka's shidduch "ki mey Hashem yatza hadavar."
When a suggestion came up for my children, the first order of business was to investigate. In the absence of any reason of substance why not this shidduch, we went to the next step - they met. (Date is such a grobbeh expression. It make the process a metziyus on its own, rather than merely an avenue of -yes- meeting.) After the first meeting, unless there was a serious reason given to us why the son/daughter felt it was a "no", they needed to go to the next step - 2nd and 3rd time. (It is unwise to judge from the second time, regardless, because it is really only a re-adjustment of what happened the 1st time. What appeared to be negative can,in comparison, become positive. And vice versa) At that stage, after a 3rd meeting, (can you become tired of meeting, or only tired of dating. Vetzarich iyun.) even if there was nothing fundamentally negative, we were more flexible as to whether we suggest they try once more.
The bottom line: Unless there is a reason that this shidduch is not good, then the default line is, "mey Hashem yatza hadavar." Why not? Not why yes. (Obviously if there is no positive feeling there than this alone would rate as a negative after the 3rd time.) There are many reasons for why not, and a parent needs to be gentle and understanding. But stam waiting for a better deal (as many do) is just hepech derech ha'emess.
Parents of young children need to internalize this now. Because the issue often creeps up on you when you are off guard (My little daughter a Kallah?)
When I was working on campus, at a public gathering on chinuch, the chairman kept pushing the line that we need to start with the toddlers. My opinion was, that no, we have to start with the student age, because before you can "bake a cake", they will be parents, with mazel ubrocha.
(1/6/2015 2:23:14 AM)
27
Number 19
Why would dating mean having to expose your history?
(1/6/2015 3:24:07 AM)
28
to number 8
not sure it was the rebbe that said that one, but believe it is in gemara kiddushin...
(1/6/2015 3:33:59 AM)
29
what a shame
It seems pretty clear that the author has yet to even take a glimpse at Rabbi dovvvs book on successful dating tips. He says pretty clearly that the only way to properly date is not to turn down for anything even if that includes age differences or alleged bad behavior.

Next time read before you post
(1/6/2015 3:56:48 AM)
30
I understand the pain of # 19.
Even though we as a family are not involved in any such problems. I know that there are a lot of people with similar problems. I am sure you will find the right person for yourself Iyh very soon. Dont give up.
Good Luck.
(1/6/2015 4:14:34 AM)
31
to #19
Nothing should disqualify you from living a meaningful life. Nothing. Every human being makes mistakes and big ones. Its only a matter of what kind, when, where and what the correction requires. The facades of propriety and reputation that govern this process for some are toxic to the very notion of building a healthy relationships and a bi'nyan adai ad. Everyone with common sense and some life experience knows that chitzoniousdik charachteristics do not reveal the truth at all of what is going on in someones inner life. Everyone, aside for bonified Tzaddikim, is a Bal Teshuva. If someone thinks they are not simply because they were born into frumkeit and chassidim by mazal this is a significant self deception and contrary to the ikrim of Chassidus. With all respect to your family if they are encouraging you to "hide out" because of your past, that is a mistake. How it has been lost that the very basis of frumkeit and chassidishkeit is poshut love and support for another especially a family member, above all else, is mind boggling. It makes no sense at all that these values are disregarded in order for shidduchim whose purpose is to build a relationship based on....love and mutual support. I don't know all the details of your story but whatever it is you should not live your life in some sort of penalty box thinking yourself less than others. You deserve respect for being a person and a Jew, whoever convinced you that you are a "problem child" is mistaken. You deserve happiness and in Teshuva can and should be found that happiness. Hatzlocha.
(1/6/2015 4:28:47 AM)
32
A girl who understands
To #19 we all have a past, some more scandalous than others but if you've rise above it and truly have changed I don't see the problem of shiduchim accepting you as a prospect for a girl on the same chasidish level as you. Your not doing your family a favor by marrying a goye or not marrying at all. Im sorry but your family's reputation shouldn't come between you and your happiness. I'm sure they want you to be happy and you deserve to be happy. Any girl would be crazy to not want someone who owns up to their past and wants to move on as the good person they've become.
(1/6/2015 5:11:03 AM)
33
To #19
U sound honest, sincere and repentant but way too harsh on yourself. Baali teshuva Can be from a frum background too. Please do not give up on getting married! There are plenty girls with a history too . Yes the frum world maybe unforgiving but I can't believe that there won't be one lovely girl with the intelligence and kindness to see past ur background which I'm sure has effected u I to being the thoughtful and kind person u seem now.
A mother of 4 ( young ) kids sending u all the best !
(1/6/2015 6:29:02 AM)
34
Shidduch crisis?
It's called the law of diminishing returns.
(1/6/2015 7:32:14 AM)
35
To #19
It's impossible that you could have done something so bad as to deny you happiness and a chance to make something of yourself for the rest of your life. That is not the Torah way and if your family think it is then they are wrong. It doesn't matter what you did. A person can *always* do Teshuvah. There is ALWAYS a way back. This is not just a concept in Chassidut, there are so many examples in Tanach - take David HaMelech, for one - look what he did. Even if you had murdered someone there would be some way back. Not only do you deserve to be happy and lead a fruitful life but as a Jew you are responsible to. Speak to someone outside of your family, be honest, and find a way to let go of the past.
(1/6/2015 8:48:04 AM)
36
THE SOLUTION
There are many BT men out there that are just a little older and more mature whom really would be appreciative of a younger wife to begin their life with. These men are proven to be great husbands and fathers. Give it a chance. : )
(1/6/2015 8:49:04 AM)
37
as a mom
I think when your told a bochur is taking a break, it's a different way of them telling you "it's not shayich"!
(1/6/2015 8:53:39 AM)
38
to #20
and what you said is exactly the problem. girls are always popping up.
a 27 yr old man will always have more choices "popping up." A 27 yr old girl will have lost her chance if all the 27 yr old boys like you are on a break when she should be dating.
(1/6/2015 9:06:56 AM)
39
To number 7
An 18 year old single boy from a good family disappeared for a few days.

After a few days he comes home upset and lost in thought, but with shining eyes.

Mom: Where on earth were you?

Boy: Don't ask ...

Mother: Well, I do ask, tell me, what happened?

Boy: I don't know where to start...

Mother: From the beginning, where did you disappear to on Sunday morning?

The boy scratching his forehead and get serious: Erm ... we'll start with this, I shot someone to death.

Mother drops to the chair: What??? You shot someone? I don't understand anything you're saying!!

Boy: Yes, exactly as you hear, it was an ugly Sudanese in the market, he tried to strangle someone and rob him. I had no choice, someone gave me a gun, and I used it...

Mother: Oh dear, I don't believe this, Master of the Universe!!

Father: Why were you in the market to begin with?

Boy: Nothing, I like to see what people are doing.

Father: Your place is in the Yeshiva! You see what happens when you're out on the streets?

Boy: I had no choice, he deserved to die.

Father: shut up, you fool. Anyway, what did you do then? Where on earth did you spend three days?

Boy: Well, a whole riot broke out. I saw the police coming my way, and I ran for my life.

Dad: Where did you run?

Boy: I ran to the central bus station. I got on the first bus without looking where it's headed, and found myself in Eilat... I was there all this time.

Wide-eyed father: Eilat?! What's a Yeshiva bucher doing in a place like that? Where did you eat? Where did you sleep?

The boy looks down: Well, this is embarrassing..

Dad: Tell Me Everything, Now!

Boy: someone invited me to her home.

Father: God forbid! What do you mean "someone"? A family member? Maybe someone we know there?

Boy: I had no choice, I was glad to have a place to eat and sleep.

Father: I don't understand, how suddenly someone invites you to her house? This story sounds very bad!

Boy: Well, it was a strange story. I arrived in Eilat, without knowing anyone there, and I didn't have a penny to my name. I didn't know where to go, or what to do. I just sat on the railings at the entrance to the city, across of the Banks Junction. The sun was out, and I was burning from the heat...

Father speaking in frustration: ! , incredible... Ahh, let's hear the rest, please!

Boy: In short, there was a group of girls there. Secular, of course. They were standing near the ATM trying to withdraw cash, and it didn't work, so I helped them.

Dad: Why did they need the help of my son?

Boy: They didn't manage. It took them a long time, and the people behind them grumbled tried to push them away, and cut in front of them in line, so I immediately jumped to their defense, and helped them out. They were grateful and the nicest people in the world...

Dad: You were looking to be a goody two shoes, huh? Why did you even go anywhere near such ? Instead of looking for a Beit Midrash and learning a daf ? You see, !

Boy: I felt it was the right thing to do.

Dad: Yes, yes, the evil inclination, boy! So what happened then?

Boy: One of the girls invited me to her home.

Dad: Oh Lord have mercy!

Boy: I spent a few days there. I met her family, and... and you know what else?

Mom and Dad pale as a sheet.

Boy: She even offered me to marry her.

Father and Mother: er....

Boy: And I agreed.

Father and Mother: Noooooo!!!

Boy: and I got married!

Father and mother were taken to the hospital for fear of a heart attack.

And to this day they do not understand how their boy actually became a .

,

" : : , : : : : : ".
(1/6/2015 9:29:37 AM)
40
to # 19
Your post was one of the saddest I've ever read. I am sure Yom Kippur has passed many times since you did whatever it was. Please come back and regain control over what you want your life to be. Every single person on this earth has intrinsic value and how much more so a yiddishe neshama. No one can ever take that away from you or convince you differently. You deserve to and you should raise a beautiful yiddishe mishpacha just like everyone else. Remember that everyone makes mistakes, no one has a slate wiped clean. Everyone is immature at some point in their lives. If you've grown and are sorry for what you did, you are ahead of many other people out there.
Think about what the Rebbe would say or do for you. The Rebbe sends people around the globe to look for Jews, and you are no different.
There are so many Lubavitcher communities these days, you don't have to move near family if they are unsupportive. And there are so many people who aren't cookie-cutter, I'm sure you can find someone who is suitable for you. Just take the first step back to us and you will see Hashem will help. Hatzlacha Rabbah!
(1/6/2015 9:41:34 AM)
41
TO #19
You do deserve to lead a meaningful life just like others!

Hashem is always there to accept our teshuvah. Hashem forgives and we can forgive ourselves as well and so can others.

Your deep pain is apparent.

You have your whole life ahead of you!

V'Ahavta L'reiach Comacha, starts with loving the Comacha-yourself and we -fellows need to love you as well.

May we hear good news soon from you. You are in my prayers. May Hashem heal your pain.

On another note, if a bachur or girl needs a break from dating, in my opinion, they are respecting themselves by taking care of their feelings and themselves. They are emotionally healthy by giving themselves the space they need, as long as it doesn't stop them from living and dating again in the near future.

Hatzlacha to all, on either side of the fence.
(1/6/2015 9:48:41 AM)
42
Learn from my experience
I came in my 20's from a Modern Orthodox community to Crown Heights and had a number of guy friends. As soon as I got here I started to realize that keeping in touch with those boys from my past really wasn't appropriate, especially since most of them still secretly wished to go out with me or were enjoying the male-female dynamics between us, even though it was all only verbal. As soon as I cooled down or cut off those friendships with guys, suddenly I had an overwhelming, powerful urge to get married. Yes, those guy friendships were siphoning off energy that should've gone into shidduchim and making it harder for me to put in the real emotional effort to go out with a real goal of marriage. Singles, get really, really honest with yourselves and cool off those "friendships" -- do yourselves a favor.
#19, my heart goes out to you and you are on my davening list. Since I don't have your Jewish name and mother's name, I'm davening for "#19." Besoros Tovos!
(1/6/2015 9:48:54 AM)
43
a solution
I believe that we need to get guys and girls of these ages into meeting each other in less formal "dating" situations, they are simply not finding it thrilling, fun or interesting.

Let it even be a shabbos dinner with a few singles hosted by mutual friends.
(1/6/2015 9:49:12 AM)
44
hashgacha protis?
are not chassidim to believe in hashgacha protis??? why the whining??? I am an older single BT. I would like to hear the author discuss inyanim of hashgacha protis and emunah peshuta???
(1/6/2015 9:49:40 AM)
45
#19
My heart goes out to you!
People are so judgmental and need to look closer within their own four walls. Doesn't it say in Pirkei Ovos "Al todin es Chavero ad she'tagia limkomo!"
Please do not give up and keep us posted be it anonymously that you have found your bashert!
Keep the faith! Hashem has something special in store for YOU!
(1/6/2015 9:54:20 AM)
46
Mother of a boy
Dating is expensive. Emotionally draining. Distracting. Frustrating. It's not that the boys don't want to get married. It's that the effort it takes for a bochur is underestimated.
There is another factor. You may have noticed that Torah commands men to marry. Torah has no such command for women. Why? Because women (for the most part) crave relationships. Want families. Want children. Men were not created with these same drives. Therefore, dating is actually harder for men than for women.
(1/6/2015 9:54:29 AM)
47
curious
are there any older bochurim who are burned out and on a break reading this and thinking sigh ok yeah lets get back in the dating scene.? or are you guys thinking scoff.. this lady has no idea what we are going through.. and leave me alone?

wondering if any older bochurim are actually reading this.

and to number 37 I've been told many times, the bochur is busy right now (when he wasnt, it was an excuse) or even just no its not shayach, but the excuse of im not dating right now? That one makes me shake my head...why say something like that?
(1/6/2015 9:55:29 AM)
48
Move On
From a shadchan's experience. he either is just not interested in your daughter. Need to move on.
Even if he agrees to do you a favor and date, if his mind and heart is not fully open to the suggestion, you are wasting your daughter's time and will lead to burn out.
Many of these boys have no clue what they are looking for anymore even though they claim they do.
Bottom line: Don't waste your time with guys who are serial daters or rejectors and no one is good enough.
(1/6/2015 10:00:54 AM)
49
Dear Mother
I hope that you are taking the few suggestions that actually did COME UP ON THIS SITE seriously. Those are the ONLY posts you should be bothering to read, since everyone else is blaming you for one thing or another.
Good Luck.
(1/6/2015 10:06:56 AM)
50
Could it also be...
Could it also be, that because the current educational system, not only doesn't provide career training in any way (with the possible exception being Shlichus, which is now a family-only-business option, and closed to the masses), but even also the basic general-studies skills required for the masses to prosper on a career track (yes I know there are a few uneducated successful Amazon sellers out there...), that it's now affecting the dating system? Maybe more guys are scared to commit, not knowing how they will support their families with honesty and dignity. The law of unintended consequences...
PS: I along with 80+% of my (in the system) generation, went to a dual-curriculum Lubavitch High School in the mid-80s. Ever wonder why was that made obsolete in the last 20 years? Just sayin'...
(1/6/2015 10:07:38 AM)
51
bachur in the parsha
I would like to bring to your attention that in addition to dating being physically and emotionally draining, for the bachur it is also financially draining and when the bachur keeps on getting rejected because of the hamshachas halev excuse which is often the case, it makes it extremely difficult to go through it again. Ill pay $500 to travel to meet a girl and $100 each date and then get rejected after 5 dates because the girl has a fear of commitment, why should i want to do this again? My heart is not made from iron and i dont have unlimited funds to spend. I wish you luck.
(1/6/2015 10:11:10 AM)
52
to number 19
I apologize if this may sound insensitive but if what you did was public to your community then why should dating make that worse? Everyone already knows. Now you are trying to get married. Everyone is entitled to that. And if what you did is not public then why is dating out of the picture for you? No one has to know except your wife and one can argue not even she. You dont need to go around broadcasting what you did. I am so sorry you feel the need to suffer for what you did.

Regardless I dont think you specifically are what the author had in mind. I too, have been told, the bochur is burned out/not interested in dating. by many bochurim who live in CH or other frum communities..
(1/6/2015 10:12:50 AM)
53
to #29
As an avid follower of rabbi dovvi I am forced to say that your comment is not in line with the facts. Did u for any moment actually convince yourself that the most highly praised authority on dating would suggest that someone date when they aren't ready. Its posers like you that give us such a bad name
(1/6/2015 10:23:09 AM)
54
Frum Speed Dating
I hope an open minded shadchan will read this. Make an over 25 speed dating. There will be 2 shadchanim in the room, and instead of giving the boy or girl your phone number, you can tell the shadchan which boys/girls you were interested in (everyone will be by number only, not name). Then the shadchanim can work on it. If it so emotionally and physically draining to go the traditional route, this may make it easier.
(1/6/2015 10:43:38 AM)
55
Here's a possible solutiin
lets go back to marrying the boy next door! All these names and singles from all over the world in lubavitch overwhelms and complicates. In ur own home town ppl know u , seen u grow up, know ur family... Maybe not very glamorous but sure is much cheaper and in my opinion safe! That's what I will be doing!
(1/6/2015 11:20:07 AM)
56
casual meeting is not a solution, #43
I know many people in the Modern Orthodox world who meet in casual situations, like Shabbos dinner. They have a harder time getting married than we do! My friend's daughter finally met her bashert at a Shabbos table at age 35, and I know many more older singles looking, looking, looking.
(1/6/2015 11:25:24 AM)
57
number 19- I get you
You want to be an honest and open person.
That would involve you telling the girl that you are dating about what happened so that you don't get married under false pretenses. She in turn, will probs freak out and need to speak to her family about it. What happens next? Will she go through with it coz she really likes you or back away in fear?
Who knows?
(1/6/2015 11:39:34 AM)
58
A girl here
To #19
This comment will probably get lost amongst the rest. But first of all ouch. I completely understand the pain and I'm currently doing the same but for different reasons. Your comment though is so honest it hit a place in me. Is there a way people like us can date without exposes our serious flaws to the world? If there's a way then maybe people like us should give dating a try. I really hope you only expirience good and happiness onwards.
(1/6/2015 12:08:02 PM)
59
To #19
You sound so tortured and it was painful for me to read. I am wracking my brains to wonder what you did that stops you from ever marrying a frum girl. Drugs? To'eva? Armed robbery? Murder? Addictions? Whatever it was, may I suggest you run to some expert therapist & give yourself a chance. You sound so hard on yourself - I can't believe you were so wicked that you would deny yourself & a fine young lady the happiness you clearly deserve. No one is that bad a person! I wish you much happiness.

PS. Don't let your parents convince you that you are "damaged goods." EVERYONE has something, yes, my kids too. And B"H they are all settled. Your parents need therapy too, & you need to forgive yourself. I would bet the Rebbe hasn't given up on you, don't give up on yourself.
(1/6/2015 12:11:39 PM)
60
Seems a little insensitive...

To the Bochur. A guy does not have to date at your convenience. Like you said, it is mentally exhausting at times.
I was in a situation a while back where I had to tell a girl no after a few dates, when I knew that she really thought it was going to work out. She was a great girl that I really cared for, but I knew she wasn't right for me. It was not easy, and many other people go through similar experiences.

It is not easy to bounce right back after an emotional roller coaster like that, where you stay up all night trying to make sure that you're making the correct decision, trying not to picture the hurt in the girl's eyes when she hears that you don't feel how she feels.

I imagine it would be a lot more difficult to handle if that had happened to ME. And there are a lot of other scenarios that could leave a guy -even an older guy that wants to get married- feeling like he just needs some time away from the scene.

I wish you lots of luck marrying off your daughters, but it's important to remember that dating is tough, and bochurim are not dating machines that can just meet another girl every day. They are emotional creatures, too, and sometimes people need some time to collect themselves before putting themselves out there again.
(1/6/2015 12:51:16 PM)
61
#19
It pains me so badly to see the judgment people place on others (and themselves). People make mistakes! No-one deserves to be alone or punish themselves forever! The people who deserve you to be in their life wont particularly agree with the mistakes you have made, but they will accept you regardless.
I don't believe that hiding should be the way to deal with life. And no-one should judge other family members by other family members. Why can't people accept others as an individual? No-one is their brother/sister or cousin! Everyone has a right to live life to the fullest, regardless of their past.
I truly wish people stopped being so close-minded and so superficial.
Wishing you only the best... and the courage to move on out of the past into your future, and the ability to accept yourself and have the right people in your life that will accept you too.
(1/6/2015 12:55:19 PM)
62
saving up
After spending $1000 on a girl it takes time to recover financially and to save up for the next one. That what it means he is taking a break
(1/6/2015 1:21:42 PM)
63
To #19
Very similar situation here. Move to FL. If you're gonna be single the rest of your life, you should at least enjoy some good weather. Plus, you'll be more or less off of people's radar so you'll have fewer offers to turn down.

As an aside, #58 is right. There has to be an alternative dating scene (shadchanim, sites, events) for those who don't fit the mold.
(1/6/2015 1:25:39 PM)
64
#19
PLEASE GO SPEAK TO SOMEONE. ITS SUCH A GOYISH UNCHASSDISH WAY TO BE TOLD SUCH THINGS.
WE LIVE WITH SUCH UNCHASSIDISH WAYS NOWADAYS THATS ITS DISGUSTING.
THE MOST CHASSIDISH WAY TO LIVE IS LOVING ANOTHER PERSON. MOSHE RABEINU WAS THANKED BY HASHEM FOR BREAKING THE LUCHOS. ITS WAS THE ULTIMATE ACT OF LOVE FOR ANOTHER. RABBI AKIVA SAID THAT THE WHOLE TORAH IS WRITTEN TO TEACH YOU 1 THING, LOVE ANOTHER. ANY1 SAYING THAT THIS ISNT TRUE, HAS NO CLUE WHAT YIDDISHKEIT AND ESPECIALLY WHAT CHASSIDISHIKEIT IS ABOUT.
YOUR SPECIAL JUST LIKE EVERYONE IN THE WORLD. THE RECENT TANYA TELLS US THAT MOST PEOPLE NOWADAYS ARE RASHA V'TOV LO AND ANY1 THAT TELLS YOU THAT YOUR SINS ARE WORSE THAN HIM HAS NO CLUE. UNLESS G-D FORBID YOU ARE HURTING PEOPLE.
AGAIN PLEASE GO SPEAK TO SOMEONE TO GET YOUR LIFE ON THE RIGHT TRACK
(1/6/2015 1:26:19 PM)
65
To the author:
With all due respect, perhaps your sense of entitlement and bossiness is turning off potential shiduch prospects from dating your daughters.....

Just a though
(1/6/2015 2:42:14 PM)
66
#20
Your so seriously ridiculously cool man. Go hide in your cave.
(1/6/2015 3:14:08 PM)
67
To the author
you do not seem to be applying basic chassidic idea of hashgacha protis?!? chumash is full of people having things happen late in life, and so also are plenty of stories in our jewish history up to the present day. everything is not always cookie-cutter. i am very suprised COL would even publish such a letter.
(1/6/2015 3:16:40 PM)
68
maybe this is what #19 ......
Im just wondering if what 19 is saying that people will not usually get is that perhaps he had some goyishe children or something like that and maybe he has to support them and perhaps this is something that will continue for a long time.So maybe he is kind of trapped in a sense and knows full well that he is limited in what he can do.
(1/6/2015 3:40:54 PM)
69
To 19
Im so glad the woman wrote this article, if only for comment 19 dayenu. I agree with all aforementioned comments who say go for it. You probably need some therapy to regain your self esteem. The rebbes opinion about people with chatas neurim (past daemons), is to stop focusing on it and remove your thoughts totally from them. Your only thoughts must be post chatas neurim so long as you are mentally commited to only leading a healthy lifestyle. Moreso, mr rechnitz, a very kind rich man offered a great incentive to people who help older girls marry. Perhaps you can reach out to him and explain the situation. Perhaps he would include you in that incentive due to unique circumstance. And the only way shadchan should get paid if he deals very delicately with your situation.
(1/6/2015 4:13:26 PM)
70
To #19
I wish you inner peace and happiness. Learn to love and accept yourself, even if that may mean seeking professional help. You're in my prayers.
(1/6/2015 4:19:47 PM)
71
to num 20- the "we got caves"
Your attitude is so insensitive
You say it doesnt matter if you take a break because there will be more, never ending girls popping up on the conveyor belt..
well guess what? when you decide your break is over will you be dating the new 22 or 23 year old that came up? Or the older 27-28 year old? I can guess... and that 27 year old has completely lost her chance at happiness. No new boys will be popping up for her. Now imagine that 27 year old was your sister.
(1/6/2015 4:39:54 PM)
72
Singles Events for older boys and girls
Too many boys and girls sit at home waiting for the phone to ring. If you don't have the right connections or last name dating can be very difficult. So often things seem perfect on paper and all wrong in person. My friend met her husband at singles event. He is 3 years younger then her and not from the perfect family. They would have never ever gone out if they would not have met. There is a shidduch crisis. The way that the shidduch system is working now does not seem to be the solution to the crisis. Is it crazy to suggest singles events for older singles? Older boys and girls are burned out from going out on blind dates. I think it would be very helpful for Lubavitch Singles events to be arranged in an appropriate setting.
(1/6/2015 6:19:52 PM)
73
# 19
u seem to have endless mothers feeling so bad for you they all are sure that ashem has someone special in store for you i wonder how many of them are willing to have their own daughters go out with you (not only the girls are picky even the mothers are btw)
(1/6/2015 6:31:49 PM)
74
To #19
Don't know what you've done, but seek professional help to get through this rough time. Unfortunately part of Teshuva is facing the consequences of our actions and moving forward. I hope you are able to do this and be bsimcha and certainly have a meaningful life.
(1/6/2015 6:51:45 PM)
75
to #39
that is amazing!!!
(1/6/2015 7:00:48 PM)
76
To all the "informal dating" objectors
If you think it is not frum or not Chassidish to speed date, or meet in informal settings, please read up on the minhagim of Tu B'Av, where the single women would go into the field and dance and the single men would choose a wife! Our modern day ideas of tzniyus come from Christian uptight-ness. If we want to be authentically Jewish, let's reinstitute shidduch searches like Tu B'Av!
(1/6/2015 7:06:25 PM)
77
always more girls up and coming
This is very true! but for all you older men keep in mind your getting older, balder, and grayer! don't wait too long those younger and older girls will no longer be interested.
(1/6/2015 7:13:13 PM)
78
to #73
Not only is your comment inapropriate and insensitive, but my guess is that what he did may be less sinful then Loshon Hara that unfortunately is often not taken as seriously as it should be. And yes, there probably are mothers willing to accept him as their son in law.

to # 19 I fully agree with most of the supportive comments and want to add that if you consult with a reliable caring Rov, you'll get Hashem's opinion on this and if/when you get the grean light , then nothing should stop you from fulfilling your marriage dreams, not even your parents!
(1/6/2015 8:50:03 PM)
79
I am #19 poster.
Thank you #s 22, 27, 30, 31, 32, 33, 35, 40, 41, 42, 45, 52, 57, 58, 59, 61, 63, 64, 68, 69, 70, 73, and 74 for your responses to my comment. I am the #19 poster and am not quite sure what to say. I responded to the original author because my general observation is that the absence of active leadership is negatively affecting young unmarried adults. Lubavitchers need a married couple that everyone can uniformly agree is balancing ruchniess and gashmius correctly, and appoint them to strengthen, modernize and lead the Tzivos Hashem organization. Remember, all the unmarried young adults around today were part of Tzivos Hashem since we were toddlers. Everybody seems nervous because frum children who were raised to be a part of a uniquely disciplined branch of our religious society are now lacking disciplined role models that are attached to the structured institutions they are familiar with. Everyone has this strange idea that mature Tzivas Hashem conscripts are supposed to pay to be a part of disciplined yiddishkeit. Which army requires the soldiers to pay to participate? Of course the young people are rebelling, its too difficult financially and theres no unified leadership to appeal to.

The so-called shidduch crisis is happening because young people who never interacted with a Rebbe and Rebbetzin or a person with equivalent religious authority were held accountable to army-like discipline for ordinary infractions. Unmarried frum people are not being subsidized for maintaining a very strict lifestyle, and this is a genuine burden. The yeshivas, summer camps, seminaries, and shadchanim that Lubavitchers are familiar with and respect have excessive preferences and requirements that every frum child is expected to conform to despite the financial cost to the parents. Why has no one bothered arranging a tzedukah campaign to co-pay for potential shidduch expenses, especially since unmarried frum people are supposed to rely on a shadchans professional recommendation instead of interacting with the opposite gender directly and more cost-effectively? There must be leadership. The young frum people are experiencing major trust issues with their parents, shadchanim and rosh yeshivas, and everybodys anxiety levels are skyrocketing in an uncontrolled manner in the absence of leadership.

Being frum is very challenging in this modern age, especially as someone who was inducted into Tzivas Hashem and taught how to be spiritually self-disciplined like a soldier. My life experience taught me to this general rule: Dont ever tell a bochur with a WWII-survivor father and a geirus mother that he and his family are not Jewish or Chassidish enough, and then expect him to do teshuva like the Rebbes soldier. Not even as an excuse for rejecting a siblings potential shidduch match, and certainly not when that bochur is already defending himself against legitimate allegations of misconduct. The frum community places tremendous pressure on young people to adopt a Chassidishe identity, yet when I had a major inter-religious identity crisis as a result from extreme Chassidishe pressure, no leadership figure was available and instead everybody blamed my familys standards instead of me. There was never anything wrong with my family. For me, the default for not being Jewish or chassidish or frum enough was a weird combination of being a rejected soldier trying to become overcome wartime trauma and a non-Jew trying to become Jewish at the same time, only to be told that I failed and as a result of my failures, my familys conversion must not be kosher either and that I am tainting my entire familys reputation. I became a crude person and I was never proud of who I am despite my positive accomplishments.

All mothers of frum girls deserve a direct response as to why their daughters are facing a troubled shidduchim scene. My answer is to appoint active leadership and start subsidizing shidduchim costs. May the original author and her daughters receive all the brochos needed, and may healthy behaviors replace the unhealthy behaviors.
(1/6/2015 8:56:41 PM)
80
Lol
looks like the attention was diverted to comment #19, like forget the article. After all, it's a way more serious, needing to be addressed issue than the one mentioned in the article.
(1/6/2015 10:57:13 PM)
81
inspiring
#79 though I didn't really get where tzivos hashem flew in, u said verynice words
(1/6/2015 11:15:52 PM)
82
to #79 aka #19
Yes I do see the many issues you brought up.Not much different from frum children who have parents who are mod.orth but follow chabad customs etc.You dont think they are alienated and shunned because uh oh the parents are not clones of CH.Yep the children suffer. They are viewed as coming from tainted backgrounds and as long as you have the right name,doesn't matter what hides in the closet.So hear you,pal.
(1/6/2015 11:28:41 PM)
83
#79
Yeah dude. Not really sure where that came from. May god heal you speedily.
(1/7/2015 12:01:46 AM)
84
shidduch
I understand all the comments, and they will go on a long time, because its such a sensitive and hurtful issue. First, never force someone to date your daughter. I pressured a shadchan to make a date, and the guy was so nasty to her, and such a creep, even though everyone thought him a "catch". 2-encourage your sons not to spend so much money on a date..dont arrange a special flight, etc. its really hard on them..go out maybe for a cup of coffee, just to see if something is there..go real easy and nice. 3-to all the shadchanim out there..be honest with the parents, call them back and tell them it was a no..dont just not answer us. Its really disgusting, and I make it a point to never ever use someone who wont give me the common decency of returning a phone call. We are not made of egg shells, for G-d sake, and we wont jump out a window or shoot you if the other side says no..but call back. 4-never ever ever pay a shadchan up front for the elusive promise of working for you..they dont. 5-just know everyone has a bashert, and it will happen, when it happens.
(1/7/2015 12:11:28 AM)
85
I am #19 / #79 poster.
Perhaps I am proving myself a fool, but the original article was directed at unmarried men from frum families such as myself. The article was talking about marriage as an important event in society, and the questions "Why cause her that pain?" and "What is going on with you?" were raised. Why should I hold back my thoughts when the questions are being asked to COL's general readership? I did not make up the questions nor did I decide who the author's questions were to be directed at.

We all know who the Rebbe was and what his message was, we all know what Tzivos Hashem means and its symbolism, and we all know that things are not all right in the frum world. Regardless of how I feel about my own experiences, I believe Chabad is a good system, especially when compared to the outside world. I would rather support Chabad-Lubavitch from the outside in the hopes that my own extended family remains within the greater Chabad-Lubavitch community, as opposed to assisting other to follow in my own footsteps. The original author of this article is trying to do the same for her daughters, and she asked the right questions to get a response from someone such as myself. This is real life, she doesn't get a sticker for a good attempt, she gets a genuine response back. People within the frum world should feel comfortable asking what went wrong that's causing the shidduchim issues. I am responding because despite the way I was treated, my family was treated much better than I as time went on, and for this I am grateful.
(1/7/2015 12:18:00 AM)
86
#77
makes a lot of sense!
(1/7/2015 12:36:28 AM)
87
Broken engagement.
I find all the comments to number 19 interesting.

I had a broken engagement at the age of 22. I was told by the shadchan, "You know now that you are damaged goods"

I feel so sad for number 19 because lets be honest, we live in a very judgemental community. How many of you would go out with someone with a broken engagement? If number 19 did something really bad, what chance does he really have in our community? Sadly none.

BH I am married for 10 years, but after my broken engagement the shidduchim stopped.

To number 19. Good Luck. You deserve to get married. Sadly, you might just need to leave the community bubble/
(1/7/2015 12:52:37 AM)
88
To #19
You don't mention whether you and your family would accept a BT, I think that would be worthwhile to consider.
(1/7/2015 1:43:02 AM)
89
Anonymous:
I keep reading these articles and I am completely astounded. I am a young man (29), who - yes - is also burned out of Shidduchim, but none-the-less I keep trying and looking. I have many accomplishments and lots to offer. What my experience has shown me - that until I finally get on a date (Big thing) the girls like me - but want to remain "Friends" - what??? Is this done in the Religious world??? I heard of "friend-zoning" in the non-religious world but here....???

I am VERY interested in dating and I am looking for the right one - but I too keep getting pushed around, I too get rejected (for the stupidest of reasons), I am not in a 'rush' to get married per-se, but I am definitely looking to get to know someone and hopefully marry her.

Upon reading this article - all I can react is - I concur! This is exactly what I am going through. Therefore my response is: Women - SERIOUS women... please come out of your hiding spots. Actually - ONE woman - please come out and let's date... I am serious - please be as well.

If interested in finding me - I am in most of the Shidduch Groups on Facebook - just put out a message and I will see it - I will contact you IYH. Thanks.
(1/7/2015 1:50:28 AM)
90
learn from the parisians
it's quite simple to see that dating solely through shadchanim is no longer working.
If you take a look at the French Jewish Chabad communities, you will see that boys and girls eat at the same table, chat with friends of sisters and brothers, and talk amongst each other in shul--- They are not square, yet open minded and still follow the Rebbe's advice, to the extent that they spend tonz of money to fly in to the ohel for every engagement and to 770 for their ufruf.
Somethings got to change in CH, and those families who have already realized this and accepted the tu b'av style of dating have had no issues with their daughters finding gentleman's that have a career and (of utmost importance) great husbands.

If your ready to accept only good news will stand waiting for you!
(1/7/2015 10:29:44 AM)
91
to #19
I am a frum girl around your age. I'd LOVE to meet you.
(1/7/2015 11:07:57 AM)
92
To # 90
I have Lubavitch relatives in France and they absolutely do not talk to or mingle with boys!
Maybe you are talking about certain groups that are becoming more frum, but the Chassidsh Lubavitcher singles from Brunoy, Aubervilliers and probably other areas do not talk or mingle with each other. They are B"H very frum and confident.
And by the way, to anyone looking for top catches they are seriously the best!!
(1/7/2015 4:06:49 PM)
93
Simple Economics
I think that there is a systemic problem here that can't be remedied with the "self-improvement" model. There are simply a lot more girls than boys and this skews the advantage in the dating market toward the men. It is common knowledge that there are more woman available than are men. Why that is, is a separate question, however as the birth ratio of the opposite genders are very close to 1 to 1, I would conjecture that it has to do either with a higher rate of attrition amongst males, and/or a higher join rate amongst females. This, my dear commentators, is what I believe to be the real cause of this woman's ailments. If this pattern intensifies, it seems that the pressures will ultimately cause the rate of attrition amongst females to rise, or the notion of not marrying "out" (outside of chabad) will experience a degree of erosion. All the best to this woman and her daughters. I wish them the best of luck, even though doing so would hurt another woman. Because essentially, every man taken is another woman's diminished opportunity of finding a husband. So my blessings and everyone else's blessing are ultimately bitter-sweet and also tragi-comic, to a degree, even though gone unnoticed.
(1/8/2015 5:23:59 PM)
94
Match made in heaven
91+19, please arrange a date :)
(1/8/2015 11:32:58 PM)
95
Schadchan
to 91 and 19

If you'd like to meet , you can both contact me and I'll be glad to pass on your information.
musicbyyossi@gmail.com

(1/11/2015 2:27:23 AM)
96
to 91 & 19
the numbers are bashert!!!!!
(1/11/2015 7:05:21 PM)
97
coll
if they get engageed, dont say their names. just say 19 and 91
(1/11/2015 7:06:05 PM)
98
West of the Hudson
Send some girls to Seattle. There are many young men who would be happy to have an opportunity to meet a frum young woman and continue to work and live in this small, beautiful community.
(11/4/2015 12:21:40 PM)
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