Sep 14, 2014
A Girl's Advice to Bochurim

A girl responds to the controversial open letter from a bochur on what guys want in a wife, with some advice of her own.

Dear bochur,

You and your friends sound like really great people (you should probably give out your name, since Ill bet, after this article, a lot of girls want to marry you!) But the truth is, my friends and I were a little perplexed by your op-ed.

Because the one thing that you profess to be the desire of each bochur in that discussion, who are all supposedly on varying levels of frumkeit, is the one thing, that, in the experience of me and my friends, makes very little sense.

Because you know that other part of tznius, the one thats often forgotten? The part about behaving tzniusly? Well, us girls might have improvements to make in the way we dress, but you guys have a lot of work to do in the behavior department.

Specifically, we were discussing how many bochurim, with white shirts, black pants and beards, who were on shlichus, approached us this summer (while we were on shlichus as well) looking for a good time.

And no, I do not mean they wanted to learn a sicha together. It was more like well. Im sure you can figure it out. Suffice it to say we got out of there fast.

Yeah. Are you as shocked as we were? Bochurim invited us to hang out with them. Maybe they thought it would never get out? Maybe they thought that they could get away with it since theyre boys, and in high demand? Well never know. (Trust me, we put their names out there.)

But somehow, these chassidish looking guys dont strike me as the type to want tznius girls. Why? Well, they arent exactly tznius themselves, although they sure had the whole "bochur look" down.

And it wasnt just this one isolated incident. This happened multiple times to many different friends of mine throughout the summer, to friends of mine who are obviously frum and chassidish!

These same bochurim will go home, request very tznius maidelach, and get those girls, without anyone ever knowing what they are truly like, despite their chassidish dress.

Do you see the paradox here? Yes, you guys are requesting tznius girls. But guess what: us girls are requesting tznius guys, and I obviously dont mean in dress.

(As a side point, youre lucky you dont have to struggle with tznius. Please dont pretend to understand or diagnose the girls who do have trouble with this mitzvah.)

So, please remember: we want tznius guys like you want tznius girls. Before you go asking and judging, keep in mind that were done with letting you guys off the hook easy.

You want to challenge us to being more tznius, CHALLENGE ACCEPTED.

And now, you are welcome to accept ours.

Just a Typical Girl



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Opinions and Comments
1
Wow
Short and to the point!!!!!!!!
So refreshing!
(9/14/2014 8:06:02 PM)
2
better then his article
well said. I think many beis rivka girls now know what its like to ''talk to boys.'' Best response, good for you.
(9/14/2014 8:09:32 PM)
3
annoyed
All I can say is
GROW UP!
BOTH OF YOU!
(9/14/2014 8:11:28 PM)
4
Genralizing
So there are guys who were the garb and go to movies, there are girls who fake it too!
How can a generalization be put on all boys that they are fakers?
I would also be shocked if boys that are walking the walk would be so disrespectful as to unbashfully approach a girl and ask to hang out. BUT many boys are NOT like that so to make an excuse like that is just a tad small minded.

On another note: It is so of much important to read the WORDS OF THE REBBE to see exactly the causes and affects of tznius for a community as a whole.


(9/14/2014 8:11:33 PM)
5
The Rebbe's words on tznius HERE for all to see:
May G-d help you that you perceive the truth, that acting in this way is not so difficult, nor is it something about which you should be ashamed, Heaven forfend.

Be proud of your strength that you are not abashed that when you walk in the street your friends and acquaintances perceive that here walks a Jewish woman who adheres to the "Laws of Moshe and Yisroel" so much so, that you do not desire to conceal it.

Be proud that your children know that they are different from all other Nations, that they have received the Torah, a "Torah of Life," and learn it as the singular foundation of their education.

Excerpt from Igros Kodesh, Vol. XVIII, pp. 6-7
(9/14/2014 8:12:51 PM)
6
THE MOST IMPORTANT WORDS OF ALL:
With regard to your writing about covering your hair there is absolutely no question regarding this matter: Since G-d clearly said that for the benefit of the wife, her husband and their children the hair should not be revealed, surely it is so. Thus it is impossible that by keeping G-d's commandments the head should hurt, etc.

For example, when you write that wearing a sheitel makes your head hurt, it is possible that: A) This is a falsehood of the Evil Inclination who does not want Mitzvos to be performed and does not want Jews to be showered with blessings. B) If indeed it is true then this proves that you should cut your hair that it be short. Then it surely won't hurt when you wear a sheitel.

Excerpt from a letter of the Rebbe,
Likkutei Sichos, Vol. XXXIII, p. 264
(9/14/2014 8:16:09 PM)
7
Boys Are In Demand:
Its a sad but true point that boys are in high demand, therefore they can do as they wish and will still be sought out by girls.
(9/14/2014 8:16:58 PM)
8
PLEASE SPREAD THE REBBE'S WORDS!
In response to your letter of the 23rd of Iyar, in which you ask my advice regarding your brother having male children, and healthy children:

.... You should also find out from your brother whether his wife is careful to observe Kisui HaRosh. For the Zoharic statement is known, that a woman's observance of tznius and especially Kisui HaRosh brings about "blessings of above and blessings of below, with wealth, with children and grandchildren, etc."

Excerpt from Igros Kodesh, Vol. VII, p. 259
(9/14/2014 8:17:15 PM)
9
Excellent!
Sadly very true...
(9/14/2014 8:17:44 PM)
10
A Typical Girl's Response
I'll start this by saying to all those who will be writing less than positive comments, these articles aren't about us, but because we're trying to help others out of sincere Ahavas Yisroel. Although I don't know the typical bochur who wrote the precious article, I think what I say about myself can apply to him as well. So please remember, we aren't judging any of you, but we'd really like to see more of us improving in Torah, Halacha, and Chassidus as Hashem and the Rebbe wishes...

I dress 100% (should I dare to say 110% because I keep many hiddurim in addition to halacha) tzniyusdik and always did. Personally, I always found it never detracted from my shidduchim offers and on the contrary, always added. In addition, as I live in a Shlichus community and through my family business deal internationally with all types of people, I have found that regardless of my high level of tzniyus, even not-yet-frum boys and lehavdil goyim have showed interest. But they always were serious, respectful offers in light of possible marriage.

The bottom line is this:

(If you read why I wrote here, I want to give a big Yasher Koach to COL for publishing my article uncensored as nowadays so many are shying away from the emes and tiptoeing on the ikar.)

Boys want to marry serious girls. Girls who have never had a romantic relationship with another boy. This is regardless of what type of bochur he is and his personal tznius standing. Many people don't want to recognize this truth, but that's nevertheless what it is. There may be exceptions, but they are rare. And this truth isn't limited to our boys, but boys of every nationality, race, and religion all over the world and in every culture, even the most liberal. Those who lead a fry life before marriage would also prefer--although they don't always have access to--a good girl for a wife.

Personally, I believe that boys and girls should dress tznius and follow Halacha, but I am mature enough to know that no article and no one will be able to change some people's misguided views. I've seen that first-hand, and when I was younger I tried so hard to have some people see the emes, but they were too caught up in their own enjoyment of life and only got upset or even worse, didn't care. Apathy is even worse than anger because coldness is the worst kelipa, Amalek's...

So I'm not here to change anyone's views, although of course I really wish for everyone-bochurim and girls-to follow not my personal views even if they b"H happen to coincide, but Hashem's, the Torah's, and the Rebbe's. To see his shchuna like this is so painful. VeHoyo Machanecho Kodosh... The end of this posuk I don't want to quote...

So to sum up as I don't want to lose anyone's time: Dressing less than tznius, regardless of what anyone admits, is a sign of what's going on inside. When this machala first started hitting our community in droves about ten years ago, many Rebbetzins told me it was just the Chitzonius, that inside the girls were beautiful, etc. Following my mother's advice, I didn't believe them and now I can see how much I was right. The outside just shows someone's inside, and the inside is usually worse...

Why is the issue about tznius, because many or most of these girls wouldn't dare eat something treife or flick on the light on Shabbos. But the goyishe culture has unfortunately crept into their lives, and they have settled on the modern orthodox approach to Yiddishkeit: keeping all the halachos, although in as meikel a way as possible, but live the goyishe life, with their culture, dress, hair, books, movies, music, etc. Some go so far as going to bars and clubs. Some do even worse... This applies to both girls and boys who trim their beards and wear skinny jeans, drink lots of mashka, talk with Nivul Peh, etc.

The sad reality is this: People who dress frum, even sometimes Chassidish, and have full beards, are usually more modern than they look, and those who don't keep Halacha are often far gone... Many adults don't realize this or refuse to acknowledge it, but we have to wake up and smell the coffee...

And one last thing, about girls who dress untznius because they couldn't find anything tznius in the stores. Go to Boro Park. There are a lot of good quality affordable tznius clothing there. I do that and when I'm not in NY, I just wear the same skirts and alternate tops that are easier to find. I care more about tznius than wearing different clothes every day...

Here are a few key points to take away from my article:

1) People are often less frum than they appear.

2) Most people who aren't tznius know and don't care.

3) Our community has unfortunately absorbed a lot of modern orthodox values and are veering further and further away from mainstream Chassidism or even the Litvishe Oilam.

4) Many Rebbetzins, Shluchos teachers, and the same goes for men, aren't exactly good examples for our generation.

Solution:

Very simple, when Chabad Rabbonim internationally will agree to come up with guidelines on what is Halachicay required and the Hiddurim expected of Chabad, in terms of not only tznius in dress, but in behavior, mingling, girls traveling alone, boys drinking, places they go to, minyanim, Internet, smartphones, working in Shlichus before marriage, etc., we will have a big improvement because this way, the people who aren't really corrupt but confused will know what is the Derech Hayeshara, and instead of having a fry majority, it would only be a minority...

May we all be blessed to grow in Kedusha and Tahara and realize the really important things in life...

A kesiva vachasima tovah to one and all!
(9/14/2014 8:18:52 PM)
11
The REBBE'S WORDS!
My father-in-law related that the city of Frankfurt had very religious Jews their piety made a name for them over all of Germany. This notwithstanding the fact that previously Frankfurt was filled with freethinkers. All this came about in the merit of three women who were firm in their resolve to wear a sheitel , observe family purity and provide their children with a kosher education. This had an effect on the men and other women. With the passage of time the community of Frankfurt changed for the better.

From a Sicha of the Rebbe, Rosh Chodesh Elul 5714
(9/14/2014 8:19:26 PM)
12
there are tznius guys out there
just probably not ones who spend 4 hours analyzing from all angles why women dont dress modestly
(9/14/2014 8:20:44 PM)
13
shadchan
Please put your name as I have many shidduchim for you!
It is not always good to hide behind yourself! Plus we now know you are a perfect girl and always dress tsnuis! well done
(9/14/2014 8:20:48 PM)
14
The Rebbe's Words!!!!!
I have already stated my opinion on many occasions that in present generations covering one's hair with a kerchief will not last, for each and every time the woman is put to the test whether to cover all her hair, or just part of it, etc., so that she not be embarrassed by those who scoff (although it may only be a figment of her imagination, and sometimes it is actually so).

This is not at all the case with a sheitel , for it is impossible to remove the sheitel when one is at a gathering and the like. Especially so, since as you write that she will cut her hair and that both of you agree to this, then this is the best possible way.
Excerpt from Igros Kodesh, Vol. XVI, pp. 330-331
(9/14/2014 8:21:14 PM)
15
Challenge accepted
way to go Sara!
(9/14/2014 8:23:51 PM)
16
Please read the Rebbe's words on tznius
One should not think: Must I act with such a tremendous degree of tznius so that my children will become Kohanim Gedolim; why should I care if my children grow up to be regular priests. Furthermore, all Jews are holy!

Herein is the lesson from the lighting of the Menorah, which was to be done specifically in the Beis HaMikdash. This teaches us that if at all possible we are to increase the amount of illumination even in those places that are already most holy.

Here as well: If a woman is granted the ability to train her sons that they grow into Kohanim Gedolim, it proves that this is her task; should she not do this, she does not carry out her obligation and does not fulfill G-d's desire.

Excerpt of a Sicha of the Rebbe, Shavuos 5717
(9/14/2014 8:24:02 PM)
17
this is frightening
As a parent looking into boys for my daughter, how do I find out if a bochur I'm looking into is involved in these types of things?
(9/14/2014 8:26:20 PM)
18
theres a shidduch!!
the one with the bochur writing and the girl.. sounds like a god shidduch
(9/14/2014 8:26:55 PM)
19
and therefore what!?!
Are the feelings of bochurim regarding what they want no longer valid!?!
Should bochurim now lower their expectations for a good mother for their children because boys will be boys!?!
It is justifiable to equate a temporary lapse in judgment (on the part of a few bochurim) with all day public infractions of girls on a regular basis as their way of life!?!

Or is this some girl's attempt to say "but boys are boys and they do bad stuff sometimes too, so this is whats going to happen when you say bad stuff about girls"!?!

Hahahahahaha haaaahahahahaaa..........

Yes, the truth hurts.

You read into the invitation from the bochurim to hang out with them as innuendo for something they never said.
So much for the benefit of the doubt.
And then you...
...spread it around for anyone who would listen!?!
Feeling like because they are, or will be, "in shidduchim" gives you carte blanche allowance to go spreading lashon horroh about them, nevermind that it is nothing but your own perception of innuendo, is unjustified and wrong. More than anything, it reflects on where your head is at.
(9/14/2014 8:28:23 PM)
20
bochur
I'm sorry lady. I think you don't grasp the situation here. I'm not condoning what happened to you this summer, but from your story it seems that a girl can find a bochur that fits her level and they still will have the right outward look. Just because they aren't for you doesn't mean that someone out there isn't looking for a boy who wants to have some fun, maybe cutting corners a little, yet still wears a hat and jacket. Unfortunately, this doesn't seem to be the case the other way around. Its not wrong to outwardly look chasidish as long as you don't try to fool any potential suitors. As long as you are up front with people, is it really a problem to wear a hat and jacket, learn chitas and do a little mivtsaim?
(9/14/2014 8:30:02 PM)
21
The Author addressed your concern in his op-ed!
"Before that, I feel that its very important to say the following. We all have tests and struggles in our life. No one is perfect. Believe me, I can write a whole op-ed on the problems bochurim are having these days, problems that might even be worse than the tznius issue. So bear in mind I'm not judging, I'm simply giving an honest observation about a serious issue"
- From the article " A Bochur's Advice to Girls"
(9/14/2014 8:31:49 PM)
22
Dear typical girl.
Don't get me wrong, I know there's too much "STUFF" happening when kids go on shlichus, because not every situation is idea, not every shaliach is a yeirei shomayim, not every 20 year old knows how to behave without supervision, etc, etc, etc.

But it's a lot easier for a boy to do teshuva. A boy with long shaggy hair, pants too low, etc. is not necessarily transgressing a d'oraisa. But every 4 inches of exposed flesh on your body IS a separate violation of a d'oraisa!

A boy who R"L goes off, does teshuva, and is now frum again can marry any girl who desires to marry him.

No so with a girl who has a reputation as being loose. No cohanim in your future, No hope of having your son enter the kodesh hakodoshim, or serve in the bigdei kehuna.

If you expose your body in public, people can't help but wonder what you are up to in private. And all those photos you think are so cool on facebook now, will come back and haunt you when you finally return - just wait till your own children see them, or your intended mother-in-law!

Yup, it's not fair, there's no equality, but it's a fact. It's harder on girls than on boys. But G-d made you a girl and he wants to reward you for being that special type of person, one of the nashim tzidkanios, who ensured Yetzias Miztraim, and who will lead us out of this galus.

Don't mess it all up. You are better than that. Your destiny is greater than that. you are a Bas Yisroel. Don't act like the lowest of the low.

Your family is longing to welcome you back home. Please return.

(9/14/2014 8:36:54 PM)
23
nice
But this doesn't contradict anything said in the original op-ed, and it also is no excuse for the way women dress. It is so easy to say "Don't tell me to do this because YOU do that", but who gains? We must realize we have a problem and fix it, they must realize they have a problem and fix it. One doesn't excuse the other, and if we each wait around for the OTHER one to change than nothing will happen. Keep that in mind.
(9/14/2014 8:42:26 PM)
24
too much
please stop the public laundry-washing. And stop making it sound like "the typical" bochur behaves so disdainfully. When so many anon articles are published, we start getting a bit exxaggerational. bochurim, help your fellow bochurim; girls, help your fellow girls. and in doing so, you will also help each other. waiting for moshiach now. let's make it happen.
(9/14/2014 8:43:18 PM)
25
nice
love this! thanks!
(9/14/2014 8:46:09 PM)
26
From a girl
Truly brilliant!
Love both letters btw. Great and mature perspectives.
(9/14/2014 8:46:56 PM)
27
To both of you
Why don't you give your contact details to Yonah Avtzon. Perhaps you two should meet over coffee or in a nice lobby somewhere. It sounds like this shidduch can actually work
(9/14/2014 9:02:36 PM)
28
Dear girl:
You are absolutely correct about this. There's a dimension of tznius conduct by bochrim which, in the example you cited of various bochrim wanting to "hang out", needs to be worked on by such bochrim.
But not all bochrim do that. Not by a long shot.
I'm a bochur, so if I may, please allow me to give my view on this. Feel free to disagree, but you might not, seeing as how what you've written definitely resonated with me. Maybe the same will apply vice versa.
For a bochur, even if he's a very dedicated, Chassidish oriented, hard-working person, the attraction of (speaking withl girls is very much there. It exists, and like everything else in this world, there's a time and place for everything, and there's an admixture of good and bad within everything. I presume, for instance, that you're going to want to talk, and even, (gasp) "hang out" with your husband? So when you say that there were multiple times where, recently, bochrim essentially flirted with you and friends of yours, that came across as very abrupt and surprising, because 1) you and your friends are Chassidish, and 2) these guys looked the part of what your standard typical, tznius bochur is supposed to look like, and the fact that they weren't backing up their act was perturbing in your eyes. Now, I'm not sure what the ages of these bochrim were, so forgive me if I come across as vague in light of not knowing that, but I kind of makes a difference. A 18 year old bochur trying to hang out with a 17 year old girl is a big, big issue; no good will come from it. But what if a 22 year old meets a 20 year old girl, and he likes her? Is his broaching conversation with her really and truly a mark of being not tznius? Perhaps. It depends who he is, and how he does it. If a shidduch were to come from such an interaction, would you, objectively, be complaining?
I'm not defending guys who hang out with girls, or casually talk to them. I have friends that have done that, and yet more that still do. Age, as I differentiated above in a specific example, will truly only make that difference up to a point. If two people aren't interested in tznius, well then, their age is really quite irrelevant. Or if a bochur talked and flirted and did other things with girls his whole bochur-life, then yeah, I don't recommend any of your chassidishe friends to be in close proximity with that guy! However, you, if you sincerely want to gain insight and a sense of understanding of bochrim, for the right reasons, then take it from the bochrim who are tznius in their machshova, dibur, and maaseh for the right reasons, and not merely because someone is looking.
And no, I personally don't hang out or casually talk to girls. (Maybe these words count, but I have my doubts about that.) Even if she wants to learn a sicha...
(9/14/2014 9:03:01 PM)
29
Not this topic again and again...
So basically I can fool folks with my outer appearnace because they think someone who dresses well is good on the inside, but I'm just dressing in a conformity uniform.

Take break.
(9/14/2014 9:08:37 PM)
30
You have got to be kldding me.
Ok. Back to the basics...

Modest dress is Basic Morality.
This means to say that...
Women who dress immodestly are conducting themselves immorally.
Visibly married women who dress immodestly are encouraging immorality in others in addition to their own immoral conduct.

We all know this.
Even the secular world knows this.
In secular failure to be properly clothed constitutes a felony [the worst category of crime], and makes one an offender.
It's called 'indecent exposure', and we all would consider such public displays immoral.

Many in the secular world have been trying to limit what is considered indecent to the furthest extents they are able, and continue to do so, successfully, as they have for generations.
They have been getting away with this because it is no longer an issue of morality, for that line was crossed legally many years ago. Now it's just a legal game.

One of the few last bastions of legislation of public decency is our Torah, which doesn't change every time a bunch of liberals want to reinvent morality to suit their insensitivities to the right of the public not to be subjected to objective indecency (as opposed to indecency as compared to what tv establishes as the norm).

But make no mistake, regardless of the corrosion of the law in the western world (ergo abortion, lawful indecency), it remains humanly indecent and immoral to walk around in public as many "chassidishe" women and girls do, and we know it.

And to us who know it, we see psychologically and psychiatric sick people, and it's sad.
Even worse is, those who were raised in Torah communities, unlike the tinokim shenishba of the secular world, have the ability to know better, but instead walk around like a rap video drone.

This is not about men and their issues, any more than its about women competing against their family and friends, fellow women, for the attention of said men.

But it's not about either of those.
It's about basic morality, and the humanity of human beings.

Modesty is required of gentiles too (Sheva Mitzvos).
But what is most interesting is, that not too long ago, the average gentile was dressing modestly (even by Torah standards), on their own.

For those who want to deflect by mentioning Islam and burkas, be reminded that any moral law legislates the dress of others and imprisons those who do not comply.

Because a judge ruled that women may now traverse NYC without covering themselves, this does not therefore make it moral, or acceptable by any stretch of the imagination. This, more than anything, serves to demonstrate that the law as it was before this ruling was influenced by the same corrupt moral character as the latest change to the law.

We need not accept it is moral because the law was changed, nor must we accept as moral the law before the most recent change, nor must we accept it as moral because many are taking for granted the extension the law has provided, not even if it happens in our community.

NO! We have every right to expect morality on our streets and in our community, just because it is morality.

And for you "girl with advice" to equate it to asking a girl, or group of girls, out [which is perfectly acceptable for frum adult singles to do, contrary to your misunderstanding [they were supposed to tell you that the "ban" on talking to boys is only supported by Halochoh when you are not supposed to be dating, or what have you] is foolish and betrays a total ignorance of what you are discussing.

Pardon me for saying so, but immorality is immorality whether it is killing, stealing, etc etc etc, or indecent exposure.

It is time to call it what it is, at least here in our community where we know better than the brainwashed peasants of America:
Immodesty in dress (as defined in Halochoh, and pretty much followed naturally by gentiles until recently) is immoral indecent exposure, and no matter what affect it has or DOESN'T have on those around you, it is 100% unacceptable and contributes to a general decline of morality, as any infractions against morality do.

Footnote: Tight or very thin clothing that hang like a second skin (e.g. shells) are not considered a covering, and we know it.

Kudos to those who have the strength to publicly and peacefully protest the immoral conduct that has been seeping into our community. There is no excuse for it.

And to the author above:
What a poor attempt. You've only compromised your integrity by comparing ideas you got in your head (which even if true are not "immorality" by Torah standards) to blatant regular ongoing diplays of immorality in our own community.

I rest my case. =)
(9/14/2014 9:13:18 PM)
31
to#22
A serious question. Why are you so judgmental?
(9/14/2014 9:13:40 PM)
32
to #18
haha was thiking that same exact thing
(9/14/2014 9:26:04 PM)
33
The fact is:
The woman is the Akeres haBayis.
A good woman will raise good children, even if the man is just another guy.
So even if those guys were simple-minded bochurim, they still would be right and well to want a good woman to raise their children.

That you spread loshon hora about them reflects negatively on you.

You are probably jealous that they will get a good girl who will probably be happy with her simple-minded bochur instead of someone like you who puts on a show of being good but occupies herself with and spreads evil about others.

You cannot handle that girls are being called out for something so important as tznius so you try to think of something to say about boys to get back at them.

We can all see that you are not doing what is right and true. You are only trying to get revenge albeit passively ....

Wow you found two bochurim who invited fellow lubavitchers to go bowling with them. Big deal. Have you seen how many girls are walking around in tight clothing or worse in front of all the children in the community.

Nice try.....

Your messed up attempt at getting revenge will never win over sound intellect like the bochur wrote from.
You are so warped you cant even see how idiotic you look comparing that to corrupting our children.
(9/14/2014 9:30:12 PM)
34
i'm glad there was a response, but
there original article wasfrustrating. i'm glad there has been a response, but this was not the right response.
(9/14/2014 9:32:37 PM)
35
Amazing
If collive put up just a big picture of the word "shidduch", it would have at least 300 comments.
(9/14/2014 9:34:53 PM)
36
Wow #30
That was an eye opener.

I couldn't have framed it better or more accurately.

Looks like almost everyone is missing the boat...
(9/14/2014 9:37:50 PM)
37
Yes, 18
I second that! :)
(9/14/2014 9:39:23 PM)
38
A BOCHUR
Hands down the line of the year. "They were looking for a good time... and no not learning a sicha if you know what i mean... LOL!!! #youreawesome #keepemcomin
(9/14/2014 9:41:19 PM)
39
to 27
Why a Shadchan? Collive can do a great job at that, I'm sure!
(9/14/2014 9:44:46 PM)
40
shidduch forsure
I definitely agree that these two can be a perfect match! Don't be shyyy... C'mon, put your names so we can all celebrate!! And look girl, if you don't want him, I'll take him!
(9/14/2014 9:58:14 PM)
41
@30
What case did you make to begin with?
(9/14/2014 10:01:07 PM)
42
White Noise
Don't want to disrupt the party but if anybody really thinks that Tzniut is the biggest prob in chabad/crown hts they are deeply, sorely mistaken!!
(9/14/2014 10:05:55 PM)
43
Let's be honest from a bochurs view
The bochurs article hit you where it hurt. It shows in the way your response is written. You didn't write how bochrim should stop judging girls etc. Rather you chose to throw a punch back at them, in such an immature way. Of course everyone does things wrong. We all do. (and btw really disgusting to "put the names of the guys out there" who wanted to hang out with you. Would you like it if the bochrim made a list of all the girls that wore short skirts?)
The point I'm making is that guys and girls all have to realize that we have a lot to work on. Marriage is the time when we help each other work on our issues together, as a team.

Your typical bochur
(9/14/2014 10:06:32 PM)
44
BOYS and GIRLS are different
this is my first time writing a comment on col but this is getting out of hand, why are bocherim telling girls what to do, and same vice versa ? i mean you are who you are. it will be nice if everyone is modest but that is obviously not the case.
i cant give suggestions because i didn't start dating yet, but when it comes time to go dating YOUR the one going to pick what you want so please don't jump down everyone's throat, and think that everyone is for you and expect to chose the prettiest apple off the tree, and most aidlle.

TYPICAL CROWN HEIGHTS-ER
(9/14/2014 10:09:23 PM)
45
high school girl
Thank you, you are an amazing writer, and thank you for showing our perspective.
(9/14/2014 10:15:02 PM)
46
Maybe ....
If you would dress according to halocho you wouldn't be calling unwanted attention to yourself. Just saying....
(9/14/2014 10:21:12 PM)
47
stop
Just get to the point I see many couples walking from shul the girls with tight dresses short sleeves high heels they look cheap not beautiful boys these women are the mothers of your children we were givin a gift of the torah no one's perfect but be honest with yourself you know what is right and the future of your family is in your hands
(9/14/2014 10:21:43 PM)
48
Thank you -- brhs girls perspective
I have to agree with the girl about what she said but we absolutely can not go around and say that all boys act in that manner of wanting to have fun some buchorim are very seeious indeed and it wouldn't be fair to give them abad name since they are from and good boys -- but also for girls a girl cannot just think that she can watch movies and other stuff while her husband will be totally frum -- a husband and wife have to be on the same level
(9/14/2014 10:28:18 PM)
49
all nonsense aside
For a girl not to be tsnius is akin to a bochur not to put on teffilin by day. Would a girl marry a bochur who doesn't lein teffilin?
(9/14/2014 10:36:41 PM)
50
poor guys...
if you could put yourself in men or boy's shoes, to feel what it's like to have to go pray or learn or go to the mikvah and and have to face these immodest women (more women then girls)sorry but it's a fact how can they have clean thoughts ? the " don,t look" reply Is irrelevant you want men to walk and close their eyes gimme a break, I wish these women would dress like that at home instead of when gong out; women can feel offended by one or a few tznius signs on a few trees but men can not feel offended by a constant harassment of immodest sight...
(9/14/2014 10:38:51 PM)
51
#22
You seem a little presumptuous of what the girl who wrote the article is like. Perhaps she is tzinius an aidele, perhaps she is not. You have no clue.
And on another note you are just furthering her point when you point out how easy men have it to come back and do teshuva.
(9/14/2014 10:39:06 PM)
52
No wonder
No wonder the shidduch system isn't working, and there is a shidduch crisis. I can't believe people still think it's a mystery. If everyone would just relax, take a deep breath and stop focusing on everyone elses flaws, and focus on their own, I believe we would be in a much better place.
Everyone is so self centered and self righteous when it comes to tznius, but lashon hara, for example.. that's completely okay. GET OVER YOURSELVES
(9/14/2014 10:57:09 PM)
53
#52
WOW WELL SAID!
(9/14/2014 11:10:18 PM)
54


(9/14/2014 11:17:13 PM)
55
#22
To #22..Very well said! You read my mind and put it in writing.
-A typical girl
(9/14/2014 11:20:54 PM)
56
#38
Haha love it!
(9/14/2014 11:27:53 PM)
57
An atypical bochur
Judging by what the 'typical' people are writing I guess I'm not typical.

An atypical bochur
(9/14/2014 11:29:23 PM)
58
#22
what a mom!
(9/14/2014 11:32:35 PM)
59
moshiach now
This Is terrible. We need moshiach right now! No more. Just moshiach now!
(9/14/2014 11:35:14 PM)
60
to 17
Look at his face and his beard. They will show you how much of a yiras shomyim he is.
(9/14/2014 11:39:53 PM)
61
to # 18,27 and 32
Are u kidding ???i think it would be a pretty bad shiduch
(9/14/2014 11:46:04 PM)
62
@52
If this girls putting the names out is what you mean I there were even 2 people there other them them its public info not loshon harah
(9/14/2014 11:46:17 PM)
63
thanks collive
Its about time we start having a frank talk about the isusse we face just be sure we don't taint anyone else in the process.
Yours a true lover of the first amendment.
(9/14/2014 11:51:59 PM)
64
absolute nonsense
Dear "typical girl"
Your article does not reflect a typical bochur at all. as a shlucha i have had many very fine typical bochurim over the years and have not had any girls "report" such kind of behavior back to us. The reason for this is because I only have girls come to me who are dressed not only according to the letter of the law, but also the ruach of the law. There was obviously something about your behavior that made you approachable to these bochurim. The blame is on you and your friends.
Think about your behavior.
(9/14/2014 11:55:14 PM)
65
wow
Perfectly said number 58. Wow! Moshiach right now! Nature!
(9/14/2014 11:55:28 PM)
66
a guy with a question
If they would of invited you to learn a sicha, would you have gone?
(9/15/2014 12:05:47 AM)
67
#59
Wow you really have no idea of what's going on. Just because someone doesn't touch his beard does not make him a yiras shamaim. Someone looking a certain way does not mean anything these days. There are so many people dressing a certain way because they are afraid of how they will be viewed meanwhile g-d knows what this person is doing!
(9/15/2014 12:23:42 AM)
68
A bachur
I don't watch movies but I could say plenty of bachurim do and they think there chasidish cause they know the latest tv show and they drink mashke and they smoke and there part of a whats app chat that posts a picture of a chasid ... Wake up smell the coffe and never turn on a tv screen
(9/15/2014 12:29:47 AM)
69
to # 1
what's so refreshing
i agree with #3 grow up
Next time you got to do laundry go to the laundrmat
your confusing your computer 4 a washing machine
(9/15/2014 12:45:21 AM)
70
WHAT???
Is this some shteching campaign?
(9/15/2014 1:04:35 AM)
71
frumingout
Hi

Firstly I would like to say that while the writer has a point modesty is not just for girls and the way they dress but also for guys and the way they act.

I would like to float something out there. I don't think people will want to hear it because it rings true. As a little background I am a chilled chabad boy in his 20s. I think that when people look and harp on a lack of tznius in the community they are missing reality. The reality is that there are many problems with our youth. You are just able to see it more plainly by women because it is shown clearly in the way they dress. Guys in the chabad community can hide it better buy having a beard that just keeps you guessing if he touching it or not etc. Guys and girls not one or the other. The truth is tzius is the tip of the iceberg.




(9/15/2014 1:05:50 AM)
72
To the author
You sound like my type! ;-) I'm gonna let Yonah Avtzon know and if you let him know who you are we might meet!
(9/15/2014 1:23:07 AM)
73
Breach in tznuis
The fact that there is so much back and forth between bochrim and girls does not seem to tznuis to me. Get your act together.
(9/15/2014 1:31:04 AM)
74
well
Didn't see anything "controversial" about the bochur's piece. This one's good too. Agree with the commentator who said to make a shidduch between the two authors.

It should be pointed out that the fact that some boys have serious yetzer harah problems, which they need to overcome so that they can be fully blessed with a happy married life - problems which have cheapened marriages, doesn't mean that the bochurim who value tznius are wrong. The fact that Jack eats pork doesn't mean that Yosef should lower his standards of Lubavitcher shechita.
(9/15/2014 1:55:20 AM)
75
good times
The reason the bochurim even asked you about having a 'good time' is bec of the way you were dressed .....
And to #28 there is no way that it is OK for bochurim at the age of 22 to start a conversation with maidels. You have to at least be 27.
(9/15/2014 2:09:43 AM)
76
The good thing is...
That stories like this are taking our minds away from the more depressing green news in ch. Also I waana thank all of the typical bochurim for reading my mind, it felt kinda weird but I feel like a better person now
(9/15/2014 2:12:58 AM)
77
sad
I Am also a bochur now without getting in to details.
The fact is that there are many girls unfortunately that do not get dressed tzniusdik it's sad to see a new generation where they are not being as cautious about it as we should now even if it's just because your lazy it still didn't make sense look also is bochurim are not going to wear hats and jackets because we are lazy and it's too hot note think about it hat and jacket Is not halacha maybe the hat beshaas hatfiloh is needed and still the avg. Bochur when he is walking from place to place he wears it now how much more so tznius which is a deoiraysah do your ready to give up your Torahs laws for the stupid sake of laziness now I know what I'm going to get in response also the bochurim don't where their hat... and are also not do Chasidus let me tell you I am living it I am in yeshiva and I know a little better then you there are many many very chasidishe bochurim that would never ever even dream of chas vesholom doing what you said was done yes there is a much bigger drop out rate then there used to be but there are so many real "erentzte" bochurim around for example in the tzaischem lesholom after tishrei the room is packed from side to side with normal chasididhe bochurim, and yes I know the situation with the boys that there are some that wouldwant to hang out that are crazy and need special attention but just because those guys are the ones that you are seeing on Kingston more it doesn't mean that they are the Lubavitcher bochurim of our times the real bochurim are busy learning in Yeshivah and not on the street so sorry that you didn't see them,
The bottom line is that on both sides unfortunately there are bochurum and bochuros that are frying out a bit but that didn't mean that Lubavich is "kaput" there are still many vary good bochurim our there and probably the same by the girls - bekitzur if you are good keep it up and try to encourage your friends that is weak like the Rebbe always demanded from us that's the whole "inyan" of shluchim chabad knits hour to reach out to his/her friend and help them in getting better in their yiddidhkeit
(9/15/2014 2:51:37 AM)
78
todays hayom yom
"One who is lowly and crass does not sense his own crassness and lowliness". Let's inspire not preach........
(9/15/2014 2:58:46 AM)
79
tznius
Correct that tznous is not only a womans clothes
A man flashing the latest fashion sporting the latsst glasses & driving the newest & largest car is very untzniusdik
(9/15/2014 3:26:53 AM)
80
Wrong website
I thought I come in to this website for news in Lubavitch! What is this you keep putting up? NO ONE CARES! Let everyone live how they want to, and send them to yeshiva and seminary if they want to be good.

#hashtag
(9/15/2014 3:27:24 AM)
81
Dear girl
"Maybe they thought that they could get away with it since theyre boys, and in high demand? Well never know. (Trust me, ***we put their names out there***.)"

You are going to ruin someone's life and name for doing that?! Giving out names of people who allegedly did something?! Let them be boys, and if you didn't want to do anything then stay away or just say no!
(9/15/2014 3:31:14 AM)
82
an idea..
Maybe its time to discuss these and other issues openly with young teenagers allowing them to be open about their thoughts and feelings and they will come to good decisions on their own which is healthier than it being pushed on them.
(9/15/2014 4:15:33 AM)
83
look at the
Look at the leadership in Lubavitch today and you'll see why were going downhill...
(9/15/2014 4:22:08 AM)
84
ANOTHER AVERAGE GIRL
Im a bit embarrassed for whoever wrote this.
Im a frum girl myself and I also struggle with tznius but being defensive doesn't make us any better...
Its true that some guys act in a not tznius manner and they should work on that. I agree no bochur should be judging any girl on tznius, a mitzvah they can't possibly understand, but I also don't think shifting the blame helps.
Bochurim should improve themselves, but that doesn't take away that us girls do have to work on our tznius.
Be open to accept constructive criticism, his trying to tell us that bochurim want tznius girls so for our own sake try work on it so we don't get a shock later on, although i may not agree with this, i still don't think shifting the blame solves the issue.
Thank you
another average girl
(9/15/2014 4:26:35 AM)
85
the problem with the role models today..
..is that they either look like rolls or like models.
(9/15/2014 4:27:39 AM)
86
Bochur that agrees
Great article

I agree
(9/15/2014 5:02:36 AM)
87
shiduch crisis
Bring down the age. I was a bochur 22 and my parents refused to let me do shiduchim. Because i didn't have semicha. These boys want to go on shiduchim but because they dont have semicha or still need to go on shlichus etc.
The rabonim paskened and the Rebbe wished the shiduc age would go down.
Read shiduch crisis, good book, frum parents treat their children like little children that is why bochrim act this way.
My parents met not through a shadchan and r happily married.
As one of the comments said grow up and i strongly recomend shiduch crisis.
(9/15/2014 5:54:50 AM)
88
Happy in CH
Looks to me like we have a shidduch. Can't we get these two writers to marry each other?
(9/15/2014 6:37:54 AM)
89
to 17 and to all
if you look for problems i swear you will always find it
(9/15/2014 6:53:19 AM)
90
very nice but
very nice article but I disagree a little bit but I just want to tell you women you should be ashamed of yourself and you're destroying all the boys they're trying to keep the tradition and it's really not fair I hope you realize that there are other Jews out there they're making fun of you women and young teenage girls who dress inappropriately. I hope you are satisfied
(9/15/2014 6:56:11 AM)
91
Externalities
There are men in full beards who curse like there is no tomorrow and women in short skirts who sit and do Chitas every day and collect names for the next challah bake. You cannot generalize. Yes, in an ideal world people would all look and act the way you would like them to, but the bottom line is you don't know what's going on inside and it's wrong to paint non tznius women (not GIRLS) as 'damaged'.
(9/15/2014 7:15:01 AM)
92
to#10
to the statement "Boys want to marry serious girls. Girls who have never had a romantic relationship with another"...just because a girl got caught up in a somewhat "relationship" does NOT mean she isn't serious! it can be the most typical, tznuis and aidle girl walking down the street, a girl that has not even been in any sort of scene. she just happened to get caught up! everyone makes mistakes, and the important thing is that we learn from our mistakes...so before you go label a girl (that has or has had a relationship) as "unserious", or loose, just know that there are plenty quality tznius, serious girls out there that make these mistakes all the time! and they definitely can still have a beautiful future in being an akeres habayis and raising a frum chassidishe home! don't forget that sometimes unexpected challenges face us, just because bh you weren't faced with such a challenge doesn't mean that the some girls that were, aren't deserving of a good husband and a beautiful marriage!
(9/15/2014 8:38:54 AM)
93
the future of Lubavitch
The best part of this article and the one that instigated it is the beautiful writing. Nothing fancy, but the spelling was correct as was the punctuation and grammar. I almost don't care about the content!!! This alone gives me hope for the future of Lubavitch.
(9/15/2014 8:53:27 AM)
94
Great Article
You expressed truthful the way that boys are given an upper hand in the game.
They can wear a white shirt and then, carte blanche, they can have whatever history they want.
That you for defending our honor!
(9/15/2014 9:54:37 AM)
95
A confused human
Thank you Ms. For taking us back to second grade. Instead of addressing a single point the bouchor made in his article, you took a defensive stance and decided that your problems exist because bouchorim also have problems.

You might have missed this part of his op-ed so I decided to post it here:"Before that, I feel that its very important to say the following. We all have tests and struggles in our life. No one is perfect. Believe me, I can write a whole op-ed on the problems bochurim are having these days, problems that might even be worse than the tznius issue. So bear in mind I'm not judging, I'm simply giving an honest observation about a serious issue"
- From the article " A Bochur's Advice to Girls"

To be honest with you, I'd rather see this bouchor be the one the right the op-ed of bouchorim, he just seems to get things from a logical point of view, not emotional.

(9/15/2014 9:55:42 AM)
96
IMMATURE!!!
This girl is NOT ready to get married! This is the most immature article I have ever read. She sounds like she"s in second grade still saying " I know you are but what am I?"
(9/15/2014 10:14:01 AM)
97
Tznius
Tznius starts with dress. If you dress like you are looking for a good time then the boys will treat you that way. Wake up girls! This isn't about blaming people, this is about taking responsibility for your own behavior. Hashem knows men have a weakness which is why we must do our utmost to respect that IE in terms of Tznius. If you dress in tight pencil skirts that don't cover your knees, and shirts that stop above the elbow, with the new fashionable neck line that is inches below the collar bone what message are you sending? Everyone has what to work on but I would like to see one girl give a good reason why they dress untznius?? Seriously...
(9/15/2014 10:20:23 AM)
98
Reality
I feel the Rabbonim should do something about all the women with skin-tight dresses, short skirts, red nail polish/lipstick, and sheitlach down to their waists. These women would never be able to work in a law, financial, or accounting firm, nor as doctors. The look is totally unprofessional and very vulgar, even by goyish standards. Our young women are the worst offenders, even more than the girls who may dress shorter but I personally find their mod styles more punk and rebellious. There is a spirit of the law as well, and some of these women may be technically covered but still highly conspicuous. Rabbonim should teach that ridiculously long sheitlach, clingy fabrics, extremely high and pointy heels, tons of makeup, etc. aren't tzniusdik...

Regarding Shlichus, bochurim and girls shouldn't be working in the same mokom. 20 years ago, there was no shlichus before marriage for girls, and for bochurim it was only Merkos Shlichus for some and for other a Shlichus year in yeshiva where they would learn with mekuravim... Halevai we have this again today... Rabbonim and Roshei Yeshivos should intervene. I sincerely believe most people want to do the right thing, and if there were appropriate guidance, both bochurim and girls would very much improve...
(9/15/2014 10:25:52 AM)
99
#notallbochurim
Some Bochurim have issues, now what? where do we go from here?
(9/15/2014 11:04:11 AM)
100
Clarifying the issues
There are two important factors to think about.
1) every person can and must develop theirown personal relationship with Hashem, just LOOKING chassidish doesn't make one a chassid.

2) Regardless of whether or not one has developed that relationship with Hashem, (and whatever that means to the person), he/she also has a responsibility as a community member to respect the purity of the environment. Just as it is not fair to subject someone to the ill effects of smoke from your cigarette, so too is it unfair to subject others to what is harmful to their spiritual environment. Wouldn't you protest if there were billboards and advertising posters put up in your neighborhood that were graphically violent? Would you just accept it as part of living in a democracy? Would you say that it shouldn't affect you, you don't have to look, etc.?
What you say, how you dress, and how you behave all affect others, and therefore the welfare of others have to be taken into consideration.
(9/15/2014 11:04:17 AM)
101
Enough already!
why does every third idiot have to say that the two writers should go on a date. they have absolutely NOTHING in common besides for the fact that they both wrote a stupid op-ed on COL.
(9/15/2014 11:11:37 AM)
102
Somthing dosnt sit right...
quote:
"approached us this summer (while we were on shlichus as well) looking for a good time.

"Suffice it to say we got out of there fast".

And then it says:
"(Trust me, we put their names out there.)"

Let me Analyze for a moment.

1) If you got out of there fast, there shouldn't have been enough time to get their names, and if there was, if wasn't fast enough for a chasid, even a short bull shov is off limits.

2) if you were working at the same Shliach and that's how you found out their names, that's again not appropriate to work in the same proximity..

3) if you called to find out who they were just to "get their names out there" I don't think that part of our mission in life..

Food for thought.

(9/15/2014 12:44:10 PM)
103
YOU GUYS ARE BORED WITH YOUR LIVES!
I may be also since I read this article and commentedG-d should help us
(9/15/2014 1:02:20 PM)
104
Immature
I know I see why we've got this so called "Shidduch crises" the generation seems to be extremely immature FULL STOP
(9/15/2014 1:05:08 PM)
105
Coming Soon to Computers Near You!....
"A Mother's Advice to Fathers" and the highly anticipated sequel "A Father's Advice to Mothers"
(9/15/2014 1:14:45 PM)
106
To all those fakers out there
I think it's about time that people make a decision in their life
Either u guys are gonna be chassidish or not... If u aren't gonna be.. Then fine (not sayingitsright but whatever) BUT if u are gonna be then BE!!! If u are gonna wear the garb then u gotta act the act;) its enough with all these "chassidish
(9/15/2014 1:20:20 PM)
107
the difference is..
the difference is is it that most guys expect a tznius girl irrelevant to how they dress and behave and not on the actual level they are on...
(9/15/2014 1:53:18 PM)
108
A person who cares
It is so sad to see so many people hurting,thath this is about if olny we could accept that we all have thing we have to deal with let's us instead of trying to hurt each other lets us help each other have a good new year
(9/15/2014 2:23:58 PM)
109
comment 102
Ditto
(9/15/2014 2:28:50 PM)
110
I have seen
I have read in a lot of comments here and in the original op-ed that it is sometimes hot in the summer and it is hard to dress tzniusdik - that is the excuse for not wearing tznius. I dont understand, when it comes to davenning minacha or saying chitas etc.. everything is okay, there are no excuses, "its too hard" or "im too lazy". But when it comes to dress with tznius everyone are avoiding the subject... "I am lazy, and it is hot outside" was the excuse I've seen on this topic. Wake up and smell the coffee!
(9/15/2014 3:05:07 PM)
111
to the Shaddchanim
I am going to use this post to talk to the Shaddchanim:
Giving profiles, and resumes to each side, does not constitute making a Shidduch.
How about trying to put back a personal touch, a real understanding, an honest and truthful manner of communicating, and really thinking that this suggestion has the potential to actually work, and make it work!!!
Exactly the PART that the SHADDCHAN has to PLAY:
When it's his or her turn to act,
When he has to come on stage, he disappears, and is nowhere to be found.
Making sure each side is being communicated to honestly and truthfully, so there are no hard feelings on each side.
Knowing where each side is up to.
Using your brains a little, to feel out each situation, and seeing where to insist, and push. Or where not to.
What happened to all that?
SHADDCHANIM: Today a Shidduch happens despite you, not because of you.
The way you are doing business, every potential Shidduch is destroyed before it can begin.
If you, Shaddchanim wouldn't be such cowards, and liars, but put a little EMES into what you are doing.
There would be alot more good Shidduchim happening, with alot less agmas nefesh and suffering.



(9/15/2014 3:11:14 PM)
112
Thank you
To all the people that are annoyed at this. And think that this is stupid. Well, it's not. I'll tell you why. All the time girls are expected to have better behavior then boys, when in should be equal. On simchas Torah the men get drunk and do a chillul HaShem and no one says anything. Girls always have to be quiet and listen to what the man has to say or just stay quiet all the time and do house work or other things. And let the man take care of the real business. The men want girls who are tznius. But some think that it's as easy as pie. You mean to tell me that majority of men these days don't like girls who atre not tznius. Walk down Kingston and tell me how many guys you find that aren't attracted to the wrong thing. Aside for that boys also have to be tznius with their clothes and actions. It's a natural thing for a girl to feel pressured by a boy. And I'm. It judging boys because I don't know what goes on in their minds and I'm not going to judge other girls for why they do things that are not . But boys shouldn't act so innocent either. There's more to say then what can actually be written. But whoever wrote this did a great job in standing up for women and girls who are aick and tired of being judged more and a lot faster then a boy.
(9/15/2014 3:42:01 PM)
113
105
Eagerly waiting in anticipation
(9/15/2014 4:00:35 PM)
114
I think this whole notion that guys are in high demand should be reexamined
Maybe it's the fact that guys are not as eager to get married young, maybe its the demographics
but i think that the numbers are inflated artificially and that if the data is examined carefully you will find that there are similar numbers on both sides
The issue is that guys feel more relaxed about the issue and are in no hurry to get hitched and as a result they also feel that no matter how they behave in the summer, comes fall they are back on the saddle again and whatever crazy "demands" they have should be met
of course it is a double standard and it is unfair but to all the eligible boys and girls out there remember one thing, at the end of the day you don't know the other person you think you know for many years after you married already! You may choose someone because of certain qualities you may think they posses based on the impression they worked so hard to give you while dating, a few years down the line and the truth comes to light
remember it well because no one will be able to tell you honestly who exactly that person is till you live with them for a few years and even then you may be still surprised to find out you were wrong
(9/15/2014 4:11:11 PM)
115
To Number 10
Wow. After I read you comment I couldn't read any others. You are completely irrational. It's from people with your opinion who make people not want to be Tznuius. Chabad is all about looking on the inside! You could never be a Shlucha, do you have any idea of what types of things these people do and look like?
(9/15/2014 6:09:49 PM)
116
ummm
Hey, newsflash? WE'RE ALL DIFFERENT. yeah. so all us single guys and girls are at varying levels of religion. these articles strike me as very general. maybe instead of speaking for your fellow bochurim or girls, you can focus on being the type of person you would want to build a jewish home with....
(9/15/2014 6:35:21 PM)
117
Sholom Number 10
Wow, your comments are so true. This is so true, people don't like to admit but we are facing a real problem. Our tznius levels are far worse than regular chareidi circles. Something must be done. Not soon but now.
(9/15/2014 7:36:10 PM)
118
SDK
All this talk about being average and typical (or atypical) is nonsense.

Everyone knows that only the cream of the crop get published on collive
(9/15/2014 7:37:25 PM)
119
id it tznius?
Is it ok for boys and girls to have a back and forth like this on the web?
(9/15/2014 7:42:58 PM)
120
bubby
This conversation has bochurim and meidelach .. I don't think this is very tznius this is the main problem but very nice article really got the point out you pass with flying colors
(9/15/2014 8:26:55 PM)
121
STUPID!!!
this while wntire fight is stupid! people should just be who they want to be....
(9/15/2014 8:32:46 PM)
122
!
?!
.. " ... .. ..".. ??. ... .. "kingston beach"
(9/15/2014 9:12:01 PM)
123
Just thinking
You know rabbonim say those writing comments should leave their name. Well, that be quite problematic here where there are bouchrim and girls conversing. Just an observation.
(9/15/2014 9:47:43 PM)
124
TO NUMBER 7#
"its sad that boys are in demand"
its not sad its just the way it has been since creation like it states clearly in gemarah gittin that its the girl who is desparate to get married NOT the other way around
(9/15/2014 10:12:28 PM)
125
Thats why ch is like this
Guys, go do something of your life, learn tora, work, plant a tree...
This stupid argument in this website wont take u anywhere
(9/15/2014 10:38:06 PM)
126
not tznius. .
Just spoke to a friend from boro park who was by kosher fest in ch he says you can't tell the difference between jewish girls and goyishe girls in ch the way they dress. .. the ones who don't dress with tznius you are
anti GD
anti torah
anti rebbe
anti Shlichus
anti morality
anti brachos
and choteh umachti which according to rambam there is no teshuva! If you passed by 20-50 people a day and we're machshil them with looking at you not dressed tznius x 365 days there's no way you can undo this! !!!
(9/15/2014 10:43:24 PM)
127
the Rebbe about tznius. .
arshas Haazinu 5730, the Rebbe discussed RavAdda bar Ahava,one of the sages of the Talmud,telling a story about him, and teaching the lesson to be learned from it (Free Translation):
In Tractate Berachos (20a) the Gemara relates: There was the case of Rav Adda bar Ahava who saw a woman [he thought she was Jewish]wearing a red head-dress [which is Non-Tznius] in the street, and thinking that she was a Jewishwoman, he immediately went overand tore it from her.
The immediate lesson to be learned from the story is, that when wesee a Jewish woman who is going in clothing which are not Tznius, the immediate reaction is to stand up against it -not like the people who claim that Tznius is only aHiddurwhich doesnt applyin certain places or certain generations- like we see from Rav Adda bar Ahava who immediately stood up against it; despite him being in exile duringa time when Jews were fearful of the Non-Jews he did not care about that, and took a stand.
The Gemara continues, that afterwards It turned out that she was a Non-Jewishwoman, and they fined him four hundred zuz. He said to her: What is your name. She replied: Mathun. Mathun, he said to her: that makes four hundred zuz. The word Mathun in Hebrewmeans deliberate, had he been less rash he would have saved himself 400zuz, but we see that he was quick and didnt wait a moment before doing what needed to be done.
Sichos Kodesh 5730 Vol. 1 page 59
(9/15/2014 10:47:38 PM)
128
for 122
i totally agree with u
(9/15/2014 11:32:24 PM)
129
A typical mother
While the response is directed at boys, it doesn't justify girls behaving unappropriately or dressing against Halacha!!!

Girls need to work on themselves too. And not be looking at boys and their negative behaviour to justify theirs.

Anyway, I believe there is a problem that exists here and needs to be addressed.
But I also think that we need to draw attention to the positive points. And not dwell on negativity.
Positive parenting is more effective and works much better than accusation and blame or guilt feelings...

When we see a young boy or girl, the first thing we judge them by is their clothing. It's very external...

We need to look deeper and see the neshama inside and bring it out. And only through true love and concern can we effect a change.



(9/16/2014 2:02:33 AM)
130
chilul lubavitch
the whole concept of girls dressing untzinus is such a big CHILUL LUBAVITCH and not only that its chilul hashem!!
(9/16/2014 2:09:06 AM)
131
to 31/51 from 22
You write: "Perhaps she is tzinius an aidele, perhaps she is not. You have no clue."
Actually I do have a clue. After all, she did write "Well, us girls might have improvements to make in the way we dress", and "You want to challenge us to being more tznius". If she was tznius, she wouldn't be in the category of girls who are being asked to improve their dress and be more tznius.
And she wouldn't cut down someone who is trying to improve the disaster on our streets, without even providing chizuk to girls who are struggling with tznius to follow her example.

You also wrote: "And ...you are just furthering her point when you point out how easy men have it to come back and do teshuva."
What's her point? That since all things are not equal it's not fair? Since boys have an easier time of rectifying their past she wants equality?
Hello? Don't you realize that a woman's role as an akeres habayis, and a partner in creation with the Aibishter, demands a higher level of purity? That a baby growing inside you will be Jewish no matter who the father is? That's POWER that the boys don't have. If C"V a boy goes with a goy his child is lost to klal yisroel because he doesn't have the power to transmit a G-dly soul unless the mother of his child is a Jew.
No, there is no equality. You are not an earthworm. You a woman and only a woman can fulfill the role of mother, and only a Jewish woman give life to the next generation of Jews. And for that level of holiness you need purity, respect and concealment - just like a holy Sefer Torah that must be kept properly covered, even between aliyot, and is only uncovered at certain times.
The intelligent will understand.
(9/16/2014 3:00:33 AM)
132
Number 124
Wow, your respect for women is so admirable
I'm sure there are hundreds of women knocking down your door, "desperate' to marry you, to cure their insatiable loneliness.
After all, who can be happy before they're married? Apparently only men
(9/16/2014 9:07:50 AM)
133
Good response article!!!
Though you were too soft on the guys, great response!!!
(9/16/2014 9:40:06 AM)
134
as a bochur
Don't try to always make it the guys faults I met plenty of girls this summer and during the year that went out of there way to do the same...
(9/16/2014 10:55:47 AM)
135
A typical bochur
Just a joke: the boys committee has decided that we will not marry girls anymore. Challenge accepted!!!
(9/16/2014 11:01:50 AM)
136
To 126
When you're that harsh you think people wanna listen?
(9/16/2014 11:07:45 AM)
137
yeshiva bochur 19
I've met some very" tznuis dressing girls" who do very untznuis things so I don't believe you can blame it all on the clothes.Guys and girls that want to not follow the system won't doesn't matter what anyone says or thinks.
(9/16/2014 11:09:47 AM)
138
THE BIG MISTAKE
EVERYONE IS WRITING ABOUT JUDGING EACH OTHER
STOP!
WE JUST LEARN IN PIRKEI AVOS, THAT THERES ONLY 1 JUDGE, THE ONE ABOVE
JUST HAVE AHAVAS YISROEL AND EVERYTHING WILL FALL INTO PLACE
(9/16/2014 11:27:10 AM)
139
Bigger Picture
So, he's calling for more tznius behavior, and she's calling for more tznius behavior.... this is a GOOD THING, folks!

I'm sure we could analyze the specifics of these letters and find faults all day, but let's not miss the bigger picture: when young people recognize and want to speak against a problem that many of us are besides themselves with concern over, this is (as I said before) a GOOD THING! I just hope you (letter writers) both keep encouraging your friends, community members, future spouses, and IY"H future children to the kind of dress and behavior the Rebbe spoke about!
(9/16/2014 11:27:38 AM)
140
Gil Student
A yeshiva student complained in an online letter, reported in JTA, that checks for adherence to the schools dress code are predatory. She may be right. Enforcement of any standard can be taken too far. Or she may be a teenager complaining that she is forced to follow rules rather than do what she wants. We cannot comment without knowing the specifics of this situation.

Naturally, some people are taking this story as a condemnation of Orthodoxy as a society that represses women with primitive dress codes. Im not sure that is really what this story is about. I remember when I attended high school, the administration strictly enforced its rule that boys must wear shirts with collars. We were routinely checked and boys who did not have collars were punished with increasing severity. Some boys wore fake collars that they removed during the day. It was silly. Requiring a boy to wear a collar is probably less onerous than requiring a girl to wear a skirt rather than pants. But I think an argument can be made that requiring a boy to wear a tie, as at least one Modern Orthodox yeshiva does, is more oppressive than requiring a girl to wear a skirt below her knee. One local boys yeshiva recently instituted a strict white-button-down-shirt policy, to the great consternation of parents and students. I have not seen any media outcry about the oppression of boys. But that is beside the point.

Schools have a right to establish dress codes that set a specific desired atmosphere. And if the administration and faculty fail to enforce a rule, they make a mockery of themselves and the schools rules. The extent of their enforcement depends on many factors, including the rebelliousness of the students. A school administration has to carefully balance student freedom with school rules. Overemphasis on either side leads to an unproductive school environment. I dont expect teenagers to understand that. They want freedom and the ability to express themselves in any way they choose, at any time they desire. But I expect adults to understand.

This is even more important because we are dealing with a rule based on religious requirements. If there was a problem in the school of students bringing ham sandwiches for lunch and eating them in front of all the other yeshiva students, a flagrant religious violation, the administration would be justified in checking students lunches or otherwise ensuring that this does not occur. But these adult critics presumably do not consider dressing according to halakhah to be a real religious issue. Regardless, a school has every right to define and enforce a dress code. Adults who join with the children in complaining are acting, well, childish. Its sad to see our communal discussion descend to this level. The way to avoid harping over a dress code is to follow it. That makes life much easier and the school environment less oppressive.

That said, I am further pained that discussion of tzenius, roughly translated as modesty, revolves around female dress codes. It should not be that way. Shulchan Arukh has a section called the laws of tzenius and it does not include dress codes. In fact, womens dress codes are not directly discussed anywhere in Shulchan Arukh, only indirectly (primarily in Orach Chaim 75 and Even Ha-Ezer 21), probably because local customs were historically stricter than halakhah. (A reader skeptical of the dress codes can find a helpful review of the primary sources in R. Elyakim Ellinsons Hatzneia Lekhes.)

Hilkhos Tzenius in Shulchan Arukh (Orach Chaim 240-241) contains two chapters, one on a married couples proper behavior in the bedroom and the other an admonition against urinating naked. The former is much discussed by later authorities, with wide ranging opinions, but these are usually communicated privately. (For an accessible discussion in English, see R. David M. Feldman, Birth Control in Jewish Law, ch. 5.)

R. Yitzchak of Corbeil is unique among Medieval codifiers in including a separate mitzvah for tzenius. He counts as the 57th mitzvah: To be modest, as it says (Deut. 23:15) And your camp shall be holy. Within the obligations of tzenius he includes baring oneself as little as possible in the bathroom, covering ones excrement and being modest while engaging in marital relations (which he leaves undefined). He continues that tzenius is particularly important during prayer and Torah study. By this he means avoiding urine and excrement, which in the days before plumbing required effort. It still does today when dealing with passed gas or children who are not yet toilet trained. It is also relevant when walking down the street and discussing Torah in a city that can be littered with animal droppings. While the Semak does not mention this, there is similarly a problem of studying Torah in sight of improperly dressed people. (Note that Shulchan Arukh includes these laws in various places.)

What do these rules tell us about tzenius? God comes down to us and dwells in our midst, so to speak (see the beginning of Deut. 23:15 and Chinukh 543). But He avoids a place where people refuse to act refined, where nakedness, excrement and impurity abound. In this sense, cleanliness does, indeed, lead to godliness (see Avodah Zarah 20b).

The reason why nakedness is bad leads us to the character trait of tzenius, which is distinct from the halakhic obligation. The prophet Micha (6:8) teaches that God wants to us to walk humbly (hatzneia lekhes) with your God. Commentators such as Radak and Metzudas David explain this to mean worshipping God privately, emphasizing the internal over the external. Shaarei Teshuvah (1:25) and Orechos Tzadikim (Anavah) use the concept to describe humility and a lack of desire for personal honor. These are all true, and there is much more to the character trait of tzenius. God desires Jews who are humble and maintain their own privacy, including physical privacy. We must cover our bodies appropriately and use them privately, especiallybut not onlyduring prayer and Torah study, which constitute important parts of the yeshiva school day.

Most importantly, tzenius is not just for women. Tzenius is an obligation and a value for all Jews. Making it primarily about required skirt and sleeve lengths, a sad reality of our time, is a perversion of the concept. It is sad that people have such difficulty with the basics of covering themselves that they miss the larger message.

Undoubtedly, this is due to the permissive society in which we live. We have to teach our children that Judaism is a counter-culture, a tradition with its own values and emphases. Following the latest fashions when they contradict halakhah is a subversion of the basic idea of Judaism in the modern world, submission to Gods commandments in order to elevate ourselves.
(9/16/2014 4:46:37 PM)
141
Elena Maryles Sztokman
The focus on Orthodox girls attire treats women like --- objects rather than people.

The truth is that the focus on Tznius in womens clothing does seem to indicate that woman are seen as objects. But only if they present themselves that way. If you think about it, those dress codes are designed to eliminate or at least minimize the natural male response. The Halachos of Tznius in clothing are designed to eliminate those stimuli from the public square. The less skin that shows, the less chance of response.

But does Judaism really see a woman as an object? No. Judaism requires men to see women as fellow human beings. Even when they dress in a provocative fashion. That is what civilized people do. We control our impulses. We behave ourselves. The natural male response requires men to have Shmiras Einayim - to guard our eyes. In other words, the onus is upon us to not gaze at a woman at all. We are supposed to go to great lengths to avoid that.

I believe that Judaisms attitude about modesty in dress shows great concern for the dignity of the woman. And to prevent seeing them as objects.

So why the dress codes? Because Judaism recognizes human nature. So when women are asked to help us see them as dignified human beings by being modest in public, I see nothing wrong with that. Just because men are obligated not to see women as objects, doesnt mean that women should be free to test our resolve by dressing as provocatively as they wish. That in my view is plain common sense.

So I support Yeshiva of Flatbush in their resolve to enforce modesty standards in clothing.

The question arises, what constitutes provocative clothing? That is a very grey area that is strongly influenced by culture in which one lives. Do the standards dictated by Halacha equal those of western culture? Hardly. Nor do they reflect the standards of Muslim culture. Its all about what one is used to seeing on a daily basis.

In Muslim countries where Burkas are the norm, a female walking in the street wearing anything less modest might be very immodest to the typical male of that culture.

By contrast, in western culture, a woman wearing a loose fitting top with short sleeves and a pair of slacks would not raise an eyebrow even to someone learning in Lakewood. This typical look for an American woman nevertheless does not conform to Orthodox concepts of modesty. Those standards do not allow for slacks or short sleeves.

So, what is a Modern Orthodox school like Yeshiva of Flatbush do? They have no choice but to follow Halacha. If they are suddenly focusing on the letter of the law, I suspect that there have been violations that have entered into the realm of being provocative even by American cultural standards. The last thing a coed highs school needs is their female students dressing in a provocative manner.

Now Im sure most students never did that even if they did not follow the letter of the law. But I would not be surprised if there were a number of students that did dress provocatively - pushing the envelop in a manner to attract boys. Had they not, then I submit the school would not have cracked down in this way.

Its really a shame that this is being seen as objectifying their female students. By insisting that their students dress appropriately it should be seen as a way of de-objectifying them.
(9/16/2014 7:38:25 PM)
142
too good just to be commrnts
Some of these posts should be published as op-eds, #140 and #141 for example!
(9/17/2014 2:05:52 AM)
143
woman will bring mashiach
what is the prime tactic to succed in combating that which is holding back the tremendous holiness that tnius brings to the world?

Torah on that topic! Torah Tavlin

announcing... the arrival of...

"Bas Melech Penima, the Rebbe on Tnius"
the first comprehensive English book from the Rebbe.

Buy it at merkaz anash.com and get a chavrusa. We need positive social pressure to have the confidence to do whats right. Be self confident, be tnius :)
(9/18/2014 2:44:48 AM)
144
to 112
well said
(9/28/2014 9:27:50 PM)
145

Do not judge others until you have been in their exact place. Love your fellow Jew as yourself. If you see someone low do not rebuke them, show them love. We must save our criticism for ourselves. See the good in others. Only G-d knows what is in our hearts. You cannot tell a person's level by the way they dress. Just because a male or female looks chasidishe, does not mean they are. Appearance and reality do not always coincide. And the opposite is also true. Don't assume that someone who does not look chasidishe is not a tzaddik or tzaddikes. Do not judge a book by its cover. Do not think that hashem only judges us by the modesty of our dress. With the same measure we judge others so we shall be judged. When we judge others with mercy and loving kindness, we bring mercy and loving kindness down to this world. Worry less about the outer garments we wear, and more about our inner garments, our midohs. I would rather marry a humble, self-sacrificing female whose heart was full of loving-kindness who did not dress modestly, than a smug, self-centered, self-righteous, sanctimonious, judgmental female who dressed modestly.The same is true with hakodesh baruchu. Hashem will overlook a lot in yisroel when yisroel draws down loving-kindness to our world. Then he relates to us as Father to his children, or a Groom to His beloved. When, we judge others, we bring down G-d's midah and attribute of judgment to this world, and we are judged strictly on our merits like a King judges His subjects. That which is lowest has the potential to reach highest. That is why even the greatest tzaddik cannot stand in the place where a ba'al teshuva stands. Tzaddikim are only able to purify klepas nogah. Where ba'al teshuvas are able to purify the shloshis klepas hatahmayos. I do not advocate anyone dress immodestly. But dress is not the be-all and end-all of yiddishkeit.
(8/28/2015 5:09:01 PM)
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