Sep 7, 2014
A Bochur's Advice to Girls

From the COLlive inbox: A Yeshiva bochur writes a frank and open letter to girls his age and states the one thing guys want in a wife.

Not too long ago, my friends and I found ourselves discussing marriage. We all were in Yeshiva, yet each one was on a different level of chassidishkeit. Some more careful, others more lenient. What we all had in common, it turns out, was the one thing we all said we wanted our future wives to have.

It's the word that causes many poeple to roll their eyes, signs about it are on Kingston Avenue, people use that as an example of the decline of the generations (Yeridas hadoros), and anytime it's mentioned you are sure a heated discussion will follow.

I am, of course, talking about tznius.

Each bochur in that discussion said that we want our wives to dress tznius. 'According-to-halacha-tznius'. But why? Why would multiple guys who clearly have different values, some even doing stuff that are clearly wrong, all want the same thing when it came to tznius?

The fact is that guys want to marry a tznius girl. Period. The alternative is 'this guy wants a girl who doesn't dress tznius.' Now how does that sound? What kind of values do you think a guy like that has? Where do you think he was in life, where do you think he will go?

Any normal guy who understands the strengths and weaknesses of men, suddenly finds the beauty, value, and real life importance of dressing modestly.

To the girls reading this, who might be annoyed by people 3 times their age preaching to them how to dress, I offer a new thought process to entertain every time you think of how to dress. Just remember, the average bochur of many different levels wants a tznius girl. But that's just food for thought.

The real question we have to be asking ourselves is why this is happening to begin with. The fact that guys want tznius girls is nice to know, but that can't be someone's reason for how they will conduct their life. It's nice "motivation" but living your life based off what others like, no matter what it is they like, isn't healthy at all.

Before that, I feel that its very important to say the following. We all have tests and struggles in our life. No one is perfect. Believe me, I can write a whole op-ed on the problems bochurim are having these days, problems that might even be worse than the tznius issue. So bear in mind I'm not judging, I'm simply giving an honest observation about a serious issue.

I believe in order to understand the tznius issue, we must understand why it is happening to begin with, because the solution has to come from within you, for reasons that you have. For that reason, I made four categories, each being another reason why a girl or woman, might feel the need to dress un-tznius.

1. Rebelion: This might be the hardest one to deal with, mainly because it deals with the most emotions. It has nothing to do with not wanting to dress tznius, it is simply a way for a girl to show whoever it is, that now she runs her own life. This isn't a Jewish problem, it's a teenage problem, and to be honest with you, it's not always a problem. Rebellion usually isn't the child's fault, it's usually the parent's or school's. Not that we have an excuse to do whatever we want in the name of rebellion, however, if the source of the tznius issue is rebellion, then "treating" it has nothing to do with learning halacha, it's an emotional issue that has to be dealt with with the proper care.

I do believe a lot of teenagers fall into this category. After all, if you know a teenager that doesn't want to rebel then there is something to worry about there. Eventually we grow up (hopefully) and realize that even in the less likely scenario of our parents being wrong, we won't mess up our lives now doing stupid things just to prove a point. So while this can be a cause for dressing un-tznius, the issue isn't the dressing tznius, the issue is the reason for rebellion.

2. Secular influence: News flash, there is a reason why the Rebbe was so against things like movies and downright low-class secular entertainment. Here are the facts: There are a lot more frum people, of any age, that regularly consume "Hollywood" than there was just a few years ago. Like with others, girls have also become insensitive to what they watch, and there is no doubt whatsoever that all this is having a direct and destructive impact on our lives as frum Yidden. The differences between the frum philosophy on life and the secular couldn't be more black and white.

Secular: Life is about you and what you can enjoy. Judaism: Life is about Hashem and your relationship with Him.

Secular: The union between a man and a women is about your own selfish desires, and has no real rules or boundaries. Judaism: The union between husband and wife is extremely holy, special and sacred.

Secular: Marriage (if they even still believe in it) is about falling in "love" (usually confused with physical desires) and riding out that feeling until it runs out. Judaism: Marriage is about two people who were once one soul, reuniting with each other to share and grow in their life, building a frum Jewish home together.

Judaism's philosophy and the average secular person's philosophy are completely antithetical to each other. Watching movies and TV shows and reading novels twists and pollutes our minds to not only stop following our own values, but it also gives us false ideas about what reality is. When your mind is so polluted with false perceptions that the secular world has, without realizing, your actions will reflect it.

3. Attention: This one can be a little more complicated. Needing attention isn't unique to a single gender, and is not necessarily a bad thing. We all have our ways of getting it, and most times by us just being ourselves, it is the most healthy way of receiving it. A girl who feels like she needs attention, and uses her body to receive it, is in a very, very dark place. Why she feels the need for the attention only she knows, or her close friends know. The point is, this is a legitimate reason why it's being done. Maybe she has false ideas about what it will cause (see number 2) or she's showing people that shes not "nerdy" and that kind of stuff (see number 1).

Whatever the cause is, the result is the same. Yes, a man has to control himself regardless of how you look. His desires are his problems, not yours. However, know these two things before thinking the above.

a. Dressing tznius is not just a matter of what others will think about you, it's about what you will think about yourself. Dressing tznius is a self respect issue, it is a moral issue, not just "chassidish". It shows that you are mature and that you understand and respect the beauty Hashem has given to your body. You understand that this beauty is Holy and sacred and is to be shared only with who you believe is just as special as you are, your spouse. Choosing to dress tznius shows that you're responsible, self confident, mature, and most of all, you are a person of value and self worth. This doesn't mean that if you dress un-tznius you don't have any of those attributes, it's simply is harder to assume you have them, and it's more unlikely.

b. By dressing un-tznius you are drawing out a part of a man that isn't himself. It is a deep, dark, cold and selfish pit inside his heart that tries to suck his clear conscious thinking into it everyday. Hashem made it that way, it's part of a man's challenge on earth. It's dark and cold because real emotions aren't found there. It doesn't care about you. Not your personality, or your talents. Not the things that make you happy or the things that make you angry. It has nothing to do with you and everything to do with him. It's scary and sad, but it's true, and any honest man will agree with it.

This does not mean that all men are like this. We have the strength to fight it off. However, we are not perfect, and there are certain things that can trigger this struggle. The real question is, is that the attention you want from men? Think about it this way: You want a guy that wants you, but if he wants you and you don't dress tznius then that means that he wants a girl that doesn't dress tznius. Now stop and think for one second where the mind of that type of guy is.

4. Confusion: This is what I believe to be the biggest killer. I believe that this is the category most girls truly fall into. I don't believe girls truly understand what they are doing when they dress un-tznius, and I believe I have proof for it. There were times I overheard my sisters talking about Shidduchim and what I heard really got me thinking. They were saying how their friends want a chassidish type of guy that has a fire for Yidishkeit. He goes to farbrengens, has a Koch in the Rebbe, learns the weekly sicha etc. and is "with it" and "down to earth," of course. They weren't asking for a guy that is going to sit in Shul the whole day and learn, but they were asking for what we would call in our judgmental world "chassidish."

There was just one problem, said my sisters, these girls don't dress tznius! And these type of guys won't go out with girls that dress un-tznius. So the question remains, why don't they want someone on their own level? Obviously, when someone is looking for a spouse they are looking for the best person out there. We know that no one is perfect, but we want someone who we would think is the closest to perfection there can be. So while the girls knew deep down that they are not on that level, however, since that's who they really want to be, they think they can get it, or at least work with it.

So, in conclusion, if girls understood what the real consequences of not dressing tznius is, and the dark truth about what men think when they see you like that, maybe it will open up their minds to change.

Perhaps if they were taught about Judaism's philosophy on love, marriage, and relationships, and were allowed to ask their questions and have meaningful discussions about it, maybe, just maybe, there won't be so much confusion. Maybe if they knew that the type of guy they want, wants a tznius girl, they would think differently about what real attraction is.

I believe we all at our essence want to do the right thing, we all want to make Hashem proud. we just get stuck along the way. Sometimes we get lost and confused. But as long as you are willing to take on the challenge of getting back on track, no matter how hard it is, I believe we can all brave this storm right into the days of Moshiach.

Yours sincerely,
just a typical bochur






Most Read Most Comments


Opinions and Comments
1
Completely misguided
There are plenty of women who dress Tznius whom are completely incapable of being a mother and running a household.

You are a Bochur and know just about... nothing.
(9/8/2014 12:14:49 AM)
2
thanks for writing.
telling us what the youth is thinking is always refreshing.
men are afraid of non tzneius women because once you're married the non tzneiskeit is there to attract other men i.e. not their own husbands. so what good does that do to anybody?
(9/8/2014 12:21:50 AM)
3
I don't get it
Is this what Bochurim talk about all day?!
(9/8/2014 12:23:38 AM)
4
Another typical bochur
I'm totaly with you.Thanks for telling the world what's on our minds
(9/8/2014 12:24:39 AM)
5
Dear "typical bochur"
Thanks for deciding for me the reasons I act the way I do. Us girls love that in a husband.

Yours sincerely,
Just a typical girl
(9/8/2014 12:31:39 AM)
6
amazing article
A breath of fresh air


(9/8/2014 12:38:39 AM)
7
5th reason for not tzniusness
Im one of those women in der shchuna who dresses not tzniusly in accordance with halacha, and i think this bochur forgot a big reason.
LAZINESS.
it is very hard to keep certain parts of tzanua, ie , stockings in the summertime. I am not trying to rebel, im not looking for attention, and im also not ignorant. It is just really annoying to put this annoying layer on my legs in 90 degree heat, when i could just as easily go without.
If it was easy to wear stockings, or if I didnt have to go to kingston and pay 15 dollars to sew up my slits I would do it. but I , and many others are lazy.
And I may not be tznius in accordance to the letter of the law, but I look way more tznius than a lot of these girls who are actually halachically tznius. im not saying that what we lazy not tznius prutzim do is right..... but this isnt a black and white generalization issue, however i hope this dude finds his tznius maidel.
(9/8/2014 12:40:26 AM)
8
Bochur
agree 100%
(9/8/2014 12:42:23 AM)
9
I hope you are soon no longer a bocher
I am sure that the shadchanim are after you! I hope that the young women out there listen. It is so ridiculous that they have a uniform of short skirts, flip flops, dark pedicures, etc and they are so dedicated to this uniform that they wear it even when it gets too cold for it. When it is really bitter cold, it changes to leggings and short skirts. It would be nice to see some real fashion sense or some individuality. Flip flops are so ugly. I wonder what would happen if one of them were to decide to give up that look. Would they lose all their friends? Girls, do your feet a favor and buy some real shoes. The rest of us are so tired of your toes.
(9/8/2014 12:48:34 AM)
10
Post Sem girl
Wow!! So beautifully written and such a powerful message!
Thank you!
(9/8/2014 12:56:25 AM)
11
Woah
Buddy you are in for a big surprise when you IY'H get married - you seem to think you've got women all figured out
(9/8/2014 1:00:42 AM)
12
Dear author
Although you state your case very clearly, can you explain to me why you (I mean as a group, not you as an individual) think it's OK to sport nary a whisker? Wear super-skinny jeans? roll out of bed at 11:30 on Shabbos & make a hasty shacharis, sometimes not in Shul?

You can't have it both ways. If you want a girl who exemplifies the horahs of the Rebbe, you guys need to up the ante in yourselves. Perhaps preach less & do more yourselves. And while we are on this topic, what about the men who clearly want trophy wives? Have you asked them their opinions?

In case you think I am a "trophy wife" or something, I am a Bubby whose daughters B"H are very fashion conscious but ALWAYS dress tznius & never go out in a tichel or sans stockings etc. Before you preach, check yourselves in the mirror, something Shimshon Stock OBM often told scruffy, overweight & unappealing bochurim who wanted to marry Miss World.

How do YOU dress....and behave?
(9/8/2014 1:06:38 AM)
13
wow!
very well said!
(9/8/2014 1:09:10 AM)
14
confused
Why is a bochur (how old is he by the way?) giving opinions about things that he had absolutely no experience in?
(9/8/2014 1:14:47 AM)
15
Well said
Very well put
(9/8/2014 1:16:58 AM)
16
Excellent Article!
Wow, very warm and forthcoming. I'm sure this will have a bright effect.
(9/8/2014 1:20:48 AM)
17
I don't believe it!!
If this is trully the opinion of the average Bocher.
Then why are there so many untzinius girls,surely if the
average Bocher wanted a tznius girls more girls would be tznius.
Which brings me to the conclusion I highly doubt
the average Bocher wrote this.
Nice try though!!
P.S by trying to pull off a scare tactic ie you want
get a good Shidduch if you are untznius. That isn't the way
forward. We are not misnagdim we do things out of love not fear.
(9/8/2014 1:24:30 AM)
18
I couldn't even read this
If you are expecting girls to stress Tznius so YOU can appreciate them, then you don't have a clue what Tznius is. Who do you think you are to make these demands? Are we living just too impress you? We have enough pressure to be skinny, beautiful and a bunch of other garbage so some of YOUR "Tznius"mother's will give us a chance.

You have it all wrong. If a girl has another thing she needs to change about herself just to impress you, you don't deserve her.
(9/8/2014 1:25:17 AM)
19
Words from the heart...
Enter ones heart...
(9/8/2014 1:28:43 AM)
20
name please?
Thank you for your "kind and considerate words". I am going to take ur advice wholeheartedly. Now if the question can be raised about why guys dress the way they do that would b most appreciated thanks
(9/8/2014 1:31:29 AM)
21
!!!
This is so true
I remember in yeshiva we where saying the same thing
(9/8/2014 1:34:10 AM)
22
He signs "just a typical bochur", but
I think, having written this excellent piece, he is anything but.
His bashert is very truly blessed!
(9/8/2014 1:36:26 AM)
23
well said
just a little long
(9/8/2014 1:37:50 AM)
24
Amazing article
You are a very talented and smart writer !! I will show this to my daughter in shidduchim
(9/8/2014 1:41:48 AM)
25
Pretty sure
This was not a typical Bochur. The analysis is not of a typical Bochur, but rather someone who either has had my lot of experience with relationships, or I am not sure.
(9/8/2014 1:43:25 AM)
26
bochir #2
I as a bochur in Yeshivah, open my humble mouth to comment on this opinion piece.

1) I doubt this was really written by a bochur on yeshiva.
2) Why is there no name as usual with any op-ed?
(Because he is a bochur in Yeshivah!?)
3) . , , ' . , '' ", , ", ".
3)If the girls would be learning Chassidus, and not in a watered down way, constricted by the limited intellect and/or narrow world view of their educators, but the way that it is meant to be learned and internalized " ", then they wouldn't have to pin all of their aspirations and dreams of a fulfilling Jewish life on their husbands, but will be able to be independently "chassidish" . With their heads screwed on straight. If only everyone was learning Chassidus properly, we wouldn't have to speak of such things in a public forum.
(9/8/2014 1:54:50 AM)
27
Don't believe
Sorry. I don't believe this was written by a regular bochur.
I think this was written by an older guy who thinks he'll get his message across if the reader (girl....) thinks he's a "with it" bochur.
How do I know?
I'm married many years, have kids of my own. BH
I live In a large community outside NY I travel a lot for business and I spend time in the large Chabad communities I'm the US. Also, I BH have the financial ability to vacation Pesach and summers abroad. I have been to numerous Pesach and other programs populated with Lubavitcher couples that made me, a "with it" guy blush.
So let me tell you the unfortunate reality.
Many, many Chabad yungerman
Are not at all chassidish (EXCEPT for those that are chassidish and really look it. You know the ones I mean. Usually the local melamed or mashpia ). He doesn't dress chassidish, his kids don't look chassidish the TV's All over his house don't show Chassidish shows. The activities he takes his kids to aren't chassidish, and here comes the shocker
He doesn't want his wife to dress or act chassidish / tzniussdik either.

I'm not a prude by any means. I've been around the block many times. The way the average Chabad couple look on a Sunday afternoon or at a resteraunt wed. Night is no different than your most modern MO lite looks. No shaitel no socks no tzniuss no chassidishkeit. Nothing.
So. Mr "bochur" who supposedly represents the wide range and spectrum of bochrim. I tell you this
"drei Mir nisht Kayn kup"
if the bochur / yungerman wanted something he would make sure his wife knew about it and in a healthy relationship the spouse would honor and respect the wishes of the other.
I have no doubt that it's the bochur/ husband who doesn't want the tzniuss. And it was the father/ husband whose wife/mother this kallah "yunger froi" learnt from how to dress and act.

So Mr Bochur. Get to your act together and get your friends to take a reality check. And if you and your friends would really want it, it would be.
But you guys don't want it so it isn't. Simple as that.
(9/8/2014 2:02:29 AM)
28
WAAAW!!!
Very well said, that's the exact way I feel abt this whole situation....
(9/8/2014 2:09:56 AM)
29
So wonderful!
I totally agree...

Where can we find a tzniusdik girl these days?!

And it's not just the clothes, but all the goyishe culture and mentality that comes along with it: stick-thin girls who don't cook, and get into goyishe entertainment, places, music, books, etc...

I think you touched a point the majority of bochurim would agree with... Yishar koach!
(9/8/2014 2:28:15 AM)
30
wow!!
I feel changed after reading your article! It couldnt have been said any better! The truth in it is absolute. thank you for sharing this very true insight! It is a very sad case of struggles tznius in our lubavitch community for many "levels" of "chassidish" girls and women. when we assess it and analize it with respect and clarity we can accomplish alot.
(9/8/2014 2:34:07 AM)
31
works both ways
plenty of tzinus girls around the world but you guys are all in ny look outs side ny for tzinus girls.
I know i'm generalizing but i know load of tzinus girls looking for there husband, but they only want the good guys so the guys doing bad stuff also need to tighten up a little. also now we are on the topic of shiduchim i see often on resumes watches movies occasionally what does that mean? when traveling over someones shoulder as opposed to occasionally rent a movie. We need singles to write honest clear resumes...........
(9/8/2014 3:01:02 AM)
32
Disconnected?
It sounds very disconnected to think:
1) people can be put into 1 of 4 categories
2) that by writing about something on COL people will make decisions about their lives
3) that one can think up ideas, write about them, people will change, and that this all makes sense to come from a Bachur, because he's sincere, spoke to other guys, and can explain himself supposedly logically. Sounds to me to be very objectifying and dehumanizing of others and deeply disconnected. As if people operate from a cold and rational context that's logic based. Hopefully and truthfully none of us do. The goal is to find inner peace and focus and meaning in life. The reality is that many secular not Tznius people have that and many Frum people don't. Many secular don't have it and many Frum people do.
(9/8/2014 3:29:16 AM)
33
incredible
could not agree more! very articulate and effective. thank you for sharing this.
(9/8/2014 3:31:35 AM)
34
very nicely written
BTW who is your shadchan???

(9/8/2014 3:37:50 AM)
35
loved this article
Found it very true. Except the part that it's written by a bochur
(9/8/2014 3:46:17 AM)
36
impressed
You seem to have a good head on your shoulders. I hope some of our young women out there in shiduchim take heed.
(9/8/2014 3:55:11 AM)
37
I wish it was true!
I wish it were true!! ... But just LOOK at the girls who secure themselves husbands in Crown Heights, more often than not they are very trendy and NOT Tznius!!! There is a very powerful subliminal competition, of who is more attractive and more trendy!! The guys DO NOT notice the modest girls, they notice the good looking girls (and I speak from first hand experience, as a modestly yet stylish dressed girl)!!!
You are being idealistic NOT realistic.
IF truly the boys felt like this and made their decisions along the lines of preferring Modest girls, I can assure you the girls would dress to impress in THAT way.....
Your intentions might be good on the outset, but men don't always follow their inner values!
(9/8/2014 3:59:53 AM)
38
thank you
I am someone who struggles with tznius, and I really enjoyed this article! thank you. you just gave me a whole knew outlook.
(9/8/2014 4:02:23 AM)
39
Im getting ready
for like 250+ comments
(9/8/2014 4:21:29 AM)
40
mother of a teenage boy
thank u. This is a powerful weapon for any girl trying to fight her demons. It should be posted on the school walls or given out to students.

Now, what I ask of the Lubavitcher girls reading this: can you please post a similar article for boys to back up what I am constantly telling my boy "When your time for shidduchim comes......" Perhaps if he hears it from a girl instead of his ancient mother who comes from a different generation and doesn't know anything, he will take notice.
(9/8/2014 4:24:46 AM)
41
I don't get it...
I never read articles on collive, don't have time. This title got me curious so i started reading.... I just have to say... It's interesting to see that a "typical bochur" (who seems serious from everything he writes) spends so much time on the internet writing a letter with advice to girls! Shouldn't you be busy with your learning?

Did it ever occur to you that sometimes girls don't really think too much about their clothing and they just buy and wear what they feel comfortable in?

What's the point of this parasha? Telling girls that they should be tsnius and trying to give them motivation? I believe they hear it enough from so many diff pple, they don't need to hear it from a bochur...

Maybe it would be wise to use your time to write a letter to guys explaining to them the source of their issues. Women are smart enough to know their issues and to know every detailed version of every possible solution to them...
(9/8/2014 4:52:44 AM)
42
Good article, but you missed the point
I like how you started off, about how a guy wants a girl that dresses tzniusly. That was great. But then you went and categorized all the different girls who dress un-tzniusly. Totally irrelevant.
(9/8/2014 5:19:45 AM)
43
Are you sure it was a Bochur that wrote the above?????
I'm sorry but doesn't seem like a Bochur wrote the above, how does he know all of the points? A bit interesting......
(9/8/2014 5:27:50 AM)
44
great article
Love the article! Well written! Perfect timing to write an articke like this! Before rosh hashanah! Maidalach wake up!! Its all in the shulchan aruch! Its never too late to do teshuva!! Yuri
(9/8/2014 5:45:58 AM)
45
#37
There is nothing wrong with a girl dressing nicely and modest at the same time. A girl can be attractive without dressing/behaving provocatively.
(9/8/2014 6:40:37 AM)
46
Terrific article!
Should become part of the curriculum in schools and seminaries when teaching about tznius.
Wise, well written, honest, emes!
To the author: you will probably never know how many people will be affected by this. Hashem should bentch you.
To those who read it and disagree, please reread it a few times.
Dressing tznius is saying: you can trust my morals.
Dressing not tznius is - usually unwittingly- saying: you can't always trust me...today I'm sharing with you, but there's a part of me that's available for anyone in the world to see.
Girls dress tznius out of intelligence and self respect and ahavas Yisroel.
Girls who don't dress tznius are doing so out of naïveté and naïveté only... I refuse to believe that they are aware because I really don't think girls want to harm others beruchnius. They simply have no clue what it says about them. This article is explaining, so girls: listen up!!
(9/8/2014 6:53:22 AM)
47
very good
kol hakavod, very good article.
don't let the nasty/silly comments affect you.
(9/8/2014 6:57:10 AM)
48
on the defensive
Why are so many of you on the defensive. Sounds like you feel guilty about the way you dress- but are trying to justify it! Otherwise, why criticize such a beautiful article form the heart.
(9/8/2014 6:59:59 AM)
49
dear #17
We bocurim don't talk to girls for one, so they don't exactly know what we think. Second, the chabad way is to do all through love or fear that comment sounds like your a real expert on tanya.
(9/8/2014 7:01:42 AM)
50
No Brainer
Of course they want tznious. That all they are taught all day Yeshiva today. Tznious Tznious Tznious.....
How about the tznious of you spouse is dependent on the amount of blatt gemorah you know or maamarim or tanya. If the yeshivas would just focus on teaching torah this whole tznious issue would go away.....
(9/8/2014 7:35:02 AM)
51
to #32 how can it b only 1 out of 4 blood types in the universe????
This is part of chevlei Moshiach. The world is going crazy. Until we will hav seichel. That if we do what Hashem wants. How can Moshiach come? We were chosen to b a shining example to the world. Some females are empty inside so they have to show the outside. Hashem Yerachem. A new style. One copies the other. How babyish. Buckle up. B a part of geulah!!!
(9/8/2014 8:05:08 AM)
52
meant
Be a part of Moshiach. No 'JEW' will b left behind!!!
(9/8/2014 8:07:46 AM)
53
if you are wondering
The Bochur who wrote this article is..
A Bochur vos farshteit a vort chasidus. un er ken a bit more than a little in oilom hazeh... aka in bochrim shprach.. a "Ufgiklerter bochur"
Gd bless you, may we have many more:-)
(9/8/2014 8:27:08 AM)
54
An article wrote by a macho
An article very judgmental about the secular world that you don't get it.
As you said, you live in a judgmental world.
I don't dress tz'ni'utly because I like to be myself.
What about women thinking of your behavior to women tz'ni'ut or not? You are far from being better.
If women have to dress up tz'ni'ut, the main reason is because men can handle it. Work on yourselves first!
Be a little braver and sign with a real name!
(9/8/2014 8:31:08 AM)
55
Reader
The first days of school are, once again, upon us. Teachers, parents and students alike are thinking about school supplies, those first lessons, the new routine. But for some students especially female students in junior high and high school and those who work with them, attention has also, once again, turned to the fraught, complex terrain of appropriate dress.
A rabbinic colleague recently posted on Facebook about his struggle to understand feminist critiques of dress codes in light of his work at a Jewish high school. Though he did not want to police students most especially, female students bodies, does that mean that there should be no standards for appropriate dress? And given the fact that women are exploited in our culture, isnt it helpful to have an institutional framework that mitigates this objectification?
He didnt use the word tzniut, modesty, in his original post, but it was certainly implied by context. As fraught as issues of dress are in secular culture, they are more so in the Jewish world. Though tzniut is a broad concept that traditionally addresses many ways in which a person should be humble and unassuming, today it is used almost exclusively to refer to modest clothing, particularly on women and girls.
But modest dress isnt the curative for women's objectification. Either way, the woman is regarded as an object or one who needs to be covered up. In either case, shes not seen as a full human being.
An obsession with covering betrays the deeper meaning of tzniut. Maimonides suggests that the way to behave with tzniut gedolah, great modesty, is to be discreet in the bathroom, not to talk louder than necessary, refrain from showing off your money to generally keep other peoples needs and reactions in mind as you move through the world. Its about being mindful of others so that you can have a more authentic connection with them.
I suggested to my friend that, instead of a dress code, he could go straight to the heart of tzniut, to build a culture of care, respect and connection from the ground up.
During my past five years working with college students in the Hillel world, Ive developed a lot of faith in emerging adults ability to transcend the low expectations so often set for them. Seeing the impact that intentional, meaningful conversation can have on the ground, Ive come to believe that a community of respect can be best created through dialogue, not dress codes.
What if, instead of making rules about what students can and cant wear, my colleague and heads of schools nationwide held discussions with students as partners? What if staff opened with something like, Hey, do you like to be seen as a whole person? Me too, and then made space for open-ended questions that dont have correct answers? Like: What prevents you from being fully seen? What keeps you from being able to see others clearly? Or they could start by inviting students to respond to an essay, a poem or a song on the theme of seeing another persons full humanity, so that they dont feel forced to get personal right away. These conversations shouldnt be invitations to debate. The question is not, Should we have a dress code? but rather, How do we fully see and respect one another and ourselves (despite things that make it challenging)? Those facilitating shouldnt even necessarily bring up clothing at all or if they do, it should be one factor among many, alongside race and class, status and popularity.
When we trust people to engage in tricky conversations, and give them space to maneuver within these conversations, things tend to open up. When we make space to tell stories and to listen, we grow in empathy. We deepen a sense of community. And most crucially, in regard to the dress code question we see one another more clearly. We all become subjects, not objects.
If a school can focus on creating a culture of care, connection and respect, it fulfills the broader definition of tzniut and helps to heal a society thats still pretty broken when it comes to womens bodies, and humanity. If that can happen, the actual clothing worn by people of any gender becomes just commentary.


(9/8/2014 8:45:59 AM)
56
Kol hakovod!
Coudint agree with you more!
(9/8/2014 8:50:35 AM)
57
Yes guys want Tznius girls however why the reasons?????
as a bochur myself I agree with the want for someone Tznius. However what makes you so sure the sevoras you bring are correct, I believe we can want but we are not in the place to judge as what do we know about a girls nisyonos. If you would have Just stated what guy want without your listings you would accomplish a lot more.....your allowed to want , however it's not our place to impose and tell a girls why they do things because we are completely not in their world. And on a side note NOBODY likes being told what to do especially from someone who isn't in the place to judge.
(9/8/2014 8:54:48 AM)
58
Spot on
From another "typical Bochur" and no, this isn't a typical "bochur" conversation. But I can tell you from my experience, the author is spot on!
(9/8/2014 8:56:58 AM)
59
Observer
#27...gets it!
(9/8/2014 8:57:26 AM)
60
Listen to me sweetheart
As a mother of a very tzniusdik girl tell ur 'lieniant friends' I wouldn't touch them with a 10 foot barge poll!

It works both way!!
(9/8/2014 9:06:42 AM)
61
To #53
You really did miss the point he's writing about girls like you!!!
(9/8/2014 9:07:10 AM)
62
Mostly true
Mostly true, but the author doesn't categorize the different levels of tznius. Now, coming from another "typical Bochur" I can assure you that the author is correct; bochrim want tznius girls. That being if he defines tznius as slightly passed the knees, fitted but not tight, I think you get what I mean. But gotta break it to you, your average Bochur does not want a olden aged dressed girl.
(9/8/2014 9:08:30 AM)
63
Modesty laws Protect Women!
As you said in article, girls don't realize the statement they are making when they dress in an immodest manner. Working in psychology, I realize that the modesty laws are truly a gift to women that protects women. As one commenter said if one is not dedicated to this greater good, it is so easy to slip (and be lazy) into not dressing "tznius." Especially in Crown Heights where it has become the "fashion." Think more bachurim/men need to boldly state their opinions on the issue and empower their women to restore these values.
(9/8/2014 9:19:12 AM)
64
To comment 53 and all who say 'I dress like that bec its who I am'
That's exactly his point! He's not telling you to do anything you don't want to do.
What he's saying is: Dress how you like, but just be aware of the type of boy that will be interested in marrying you. And which WON'T be interested in marrying you.
Its at your own risk.
And 2: if you do dress this way, you probably fall into one of the three categories he mentions. They make a lot of sense. Its not terribly complicated.
So, dress how you like. But which of the four do YOU want to be. They all seem pretty embarrassing, but maybe that's just me...
(9/8/2014 9:19:24 AM)
65
smile
to#7 thanks for your sincerity !but what with the tight clothing ?girls ! pleas get 2 mirrors in your home one for the front and one for the back . you yourself will be in a shock what you LOOK like from the back . i walked behind 2 ladies with babies and was shocked to see how did this girl left home ?how did the sales lady let you leave the store with a skirt 3 sizes smaller than your real size ?if you are a size 10 or 12 how did you buy size small ?ask someone in the store is it ok to go out in the street like that ?the problem is not the 90" the problem is you HAVE NO YIRAS SHOMYIM I HOPE YOU DAVEN FOR THIS THIS ROSH HASHANA IHAVE NO PROBLEM WEARING 100%KOSHER LEHALOCHA CLOTH! NECK COVERED! NEE! NOT TIGHT! AND VERY ELEGANT !HAVE BEEN TOLD BY MANY PEOPLE .WOW HOW FANTASTIC I LOOK .SINCE I"M IN THE FASHION INDUSTRY" AND YES I DO WEAR 40 DENIER PANTYHOSE IN THE SUMMER .A GOOD GEBENCHED YUR !
(9/8/2014 9:19:56 AM)
66
Kol Hakovod
Very very well written and very thoughtfull considerate and sensitive of the writer in the way he wrote it all in such a positive manner. A big Yosher Koach to the Bochur who took the time to write the oped it definitely expressed and hit upon very valid points and it will certainly serve to get people thinking and perhaps affect positive change. Amazing how powerful the tongue is.
(9/8/2014 9:20:19 AM)
67
to # 54
2wrongs don't make a right. TV shd be out. We have one shulchan oruch to tell us appropriate. Kol kvuda bas melech pnima. Go to bais yakov and see how they dress. Not freie schools thank u
(9/8/2014 9:30:14 AM)
68
To no. 7
I think we're speaking about a lot more than just being lazy to put on stockings. If your knees, elbows, collarbone are covered, and your outfit is properly fitted, I don't think you would be labeled "not tznius" just because of your stockings. MUCH bigger picture here.
(9/8/2014 9:35:39 AM)
69
shadchan
As a shadchan, I can tell you that he is 100% correct. I get calls all the time from people looking for girls, and what is the first thing they say? Tznius. Half the time, these bochurim don't look too chassidish themselves, but they always say they want someone tznius. I've had guys with trimmed beards and jeans say that. I have even asked some of them straight out, how they expect someone tznius with the way they are. Even the very chassidishe bochurim are having a hard time finding girls that are properlu tznius. How do they expect to find that? But this is what they say they are looking for.I never understood it, but it's true.
(9/8/2014 9:36:55 AM)
70
Citizen Berel
Thank you for writing this. This is the deepest and most coherent piece of writing I have ever seen on a popular Jewish website. Your detractors are fools.

Nothing will help this issue more than for men to make crystal clear the male perspective on a woman who dresses in defiance of G-d and his Torah. Illness in its most pure form and if you disagree than you are a fool or a min.

Men: stay far away from these sick, sick women -- life is hard enough, you need a healthy partner.
(9/8/2014 9:40:08 AM)
71
beautiful
but if you would stop looking for all the untznius ppl then you'd notice that in truth so many more women and girls ARE tznius.
(9/8/2014 9:48:39 AM)
72
Atypical Bochur
Wow, lots of people attacking the author here.

I'm going to assume that he is, in fact, a bochur, because I have no evidence to the contrary.

The article is very well written, and from my experience, mostly factual.

I come from a "good Lubavitch family" and went to a few good yeshivas not that long ago. I was never the least chassidish guy in the class, but I was certainly never the most chassidish guy either.

Although I disagreed -because I've been around the block and I don't find it fair to hold my future wife to a higher standard than myself- most of my friends did want a tznius girl. Even amongst the least chassidish guys that did all sorts of things not appropriate for discussion here, they seem to want a tznius girl.

To those that are asking "is this what yeshiva boys sit around talking about a whole day?" Frankly, yes it is. Guys will be guys, whether they're super-chassidish or less so, the conversations that go on in a dormitory full of -shall we say- restless teenage boys will inevitably turn to girls. Let's just be thankful that they're discussing thoughts on how they'd like their wives to be; it could be a lot worse.


The author obviously does not think he has girls "all figured out". More than likely he has one or a few sisters, and could have witnessed the struggle with tznius firsthand, and seen the reasons for this struggle.
Obviously I am also not a girl, but I have (gasp) spoken to many girls about tznius, and the reasons covered by the author do seem to be the main ones cited.

I do not, however, agree with the implied sentiment of the article, that of "if you want to get a good shidduch, you have to dress tznius, because even less chassidish guys want a tznius girl".

To those guys: (And I am not trying to be a white knight here, merely stating my opinion) It is totally unfair of you to hold your prospective spouse to a higher standard than you hold yourself. If you can wear skinny jeans, go to bars and hang out with girls, who are you to demand that your wife dresses tznius and has never spoken to a guy in her life? Double standards have no place in the shidduch system, yet still it finds itself riddled with them.

This holds true for both sides. Girls that wear short skirts, short sleeves, hang out with guys but when it comes time to get married expect a guy with a beard that wears white shirts and dress pants every day.

While I don't believe that someone should settle for a less chassidish partner because of past mistakes or behavior, I also believe that unless you have changed your ways from those behaviors, you have no right to demand more from your spouse.


This has always bothered me in yeshiva, and it carried on after yeshiva. There were always guys that would act like little angels, never do anything bad... until no one was looking. The they'd put on their jeans and go to a bar where no one they knew would see them. Their reason was always "I want to get a good shidduch!"

My argument to those people was always the same: What is a "good shidduch"? Getting the most chassidish girl possible? Well congratulations, you've successfully tricked a great chassidish girl into thinking you are equally virtuous.

Now what?

You've just committed to spending the rest of your life with a girl whose values you don't share. She's far more strict in certain things then you are. She'll get upset at you when you don't have negel vasser by your bed at night, or when you rush through davening at home in 10 minutes before work.

Best case scenario is you'll end up marrying a girl who played the exact same games as you; pretending to be far more chassidish than she was in the hopes of marrying someone more chassidish than her - and you. None of it really makes sense.
(9/8/2014 9:52:02 AM)
73
It's the mothers
You as a bochur may feel that way but I as a mother of a "tzniusdike" girl can tell you that it's your mothers who are looking for "gorgeous" girls and are having you miss many opportunities
(9/8/2014 10:01:59 AM)
74
Mother
If girls and Bochurim were not so "pust" they would think of other things except their image and how they attract attention. It is not the mature intelligent girls who dress like this. It is the girls with limited intelligent who found their place. Try going to school, getting a real job, etc. girls grow up! Every call I get for a shidduch for my son(s) the first question is the girls tznius. If it is questionable our answer is no. Girls maybe that is why you are not married. Because if you can not at least "fake it" with dress, the real you is so much worse. What kind of home will you run? What kind of values will your kids have? Girls grow up
(9/8/2014 10:08:57 AM)
75
5th category
There is another aspect which is completely ignored and that is "social norm" it has become acceptable unfortunately in our shchunah to wear short sleeves, tight, short skirts, no socks etc..I think, most girls dont think. Its hard to see everyone (or so it seems) doing something and be different. The fact that its halachically unacceptable is not even known to many young girls. In short, its peer pressure!
(9/8/2014 10:13:55 AM)
76
A mother with first hand experience
Most of the pritzus we see on the streets are married woman! The men are part of the problem. Many guys say they want chassidisha, tzniusdika girls because that's the cool thing but once they're married they try to change them. This is exactly what happened to my daughter. Boys, be honest when you date.
(9/8/2014 10:29:41 AM)
77
to 72
Well said!
(9/8/2014 10:30:03 AM)
78
Comment 72
EMES
(9/8/2014 10:32:21 AM)
79
I wish it was true in actuality
While it may be true that most bochurim want tznius girls, unfortunately their idea of what is really tznius may not be ok since you see many "chassiddishe" bochurim wives who have skirts that are over the knee while they sit or walk or wearing very fitted skirts, tops that are are too tight or too open etc...etc...
I think that both men and women need to learn and practice the shulchan aruch and what the Rebbe said about tznius to decide what is really tznius.
The general idea that most bochurim want tznius is so beautiful and inspiring-now we just need to make sure that the tznius they have in mind is the right tznius....
MOSHIACH NOW!!!!!!!
(9/8/2014 10:40:33 AM)
80
Two sided problem
Although I believe you when you say this is what the Typical bachur wants, I have met bochurim who davka want their future wife to dress 'with it', 'modern', 'not fanatic religious-like', and with their own words "like they do in Crown Heights, like shorter skirts"

Good for you if you want a tznius girl, but the problem runs both sides, the bochurim too are confused and want attention (their friends: his wife is so pretty), and their views are tainted by secular influences.
(9/8/2014 10:41:53 AM)
81
another bochur
As a bochur, I don't see why people are shocked that a bochur wrote and knew all this. Bochrim aren't robots in a prison! They are thinking intellectual people who are just as much in the world as everyone else.
(But I don't like how he decided he can put every girl in a category. It's not his place to write about what girls think)
(9/8/2014 10:43:44 AM)
82
To #74
What you're saying is that only stupid girls dress non-tznius. What a despicable thing to say.
(9/8/2014 10:45:02 AM)
83
The Be All End All?
I'd like to bochurim worry us much about themselves as they do the girls they'd like to meet. I'd like to see bochurim daven with a minyan (and put their smartphones away while doing so). I'd like to see them utterly honest and not always so willing to cut corners to save (or make) a buck. I'd like to see them learning, scheduled and regularly. I'd like to see them willing to work hard at whatever it is they are supposed to be doing, instead of chilling all night and waking up whenever. I'd like to see them pay as much attention to how others (including non Jews) see them as they do the girls on Kingston Avenue. I'd like to see them lay off the mashkeh (and worse). I'd like to see them be kind, considerate, respectful, and non judgmental. I'd like ....

Nah, what am I saying. So long as they demand tziyus of others they are kodesh v'tohor and have nothing to worry about when it comes to bettering themselves.
(9/8/2014 10:45:07 AM)
84
On my mind..
I was expecting the tuition article to get a lot of comments, but I just don't know can't figure why this topic get so many comments so fast. This topic can't be on your mind all the time.
(9/8/2014 10:59:29 AM)
85
Cheap and brainless
Honestly! I find girls and woman who dress in an untznius way are not very intelligent don't have much up there and flaunt their bodies to make themselves feel good ! It looks so cheap and pathetic it's not attractive! To married woman your obviously not happy with your husband so your looking for some attention from other men! And girls it's so cheap! A girl who dresses properly with class and style is definately more attractive to a bochur than the opposite ! At the end of the day a man wants no one else looking at his wife or causing a man to sin! Keep it special keep it for the one you marry only!!!!!!
(9/8/2014 11:04:51 AM)
86
big point
What i think the author of this piece is trying to say isGuys with their head on straight regaurdless of religious affiliation would rather a woman who doesnt show off her body to the world however that may be. I say this because tznius is not neccesarily the barometer of modesty in dress or lack thereoff. Ots a mindset with accompanying rules.
(9/8/2014 11:07:10 AM)
87
To a those bashing the author.
If you want to laugh just read the comments and see how all the people who are against the author spew out such baseless statement. The author never categorized girls, he simply said that he believes that these four reasons are legitimate causes for the problem. So if you have a problem with the article, why don't you argue with his premises instead of being given angry at the author himself. Also, why do I keep seeing everyone saying "but boys do this and that". He clearly said that boys have their own issues that might even be worse. But of course you didn't see that part, all you saw was somebody telling you the importance of tznius and because you weren't going to change no matter what has been said, you read it to reply with your clearly close minded answer. Atleast the author made a presentable case with premises and effects, you just let your emotions get the better of you. Typical tho.
(9/8/2014 11:22:05 AM)
88
to number 68
I cover my elbows, knees, collarbone, and do not wear clothing that looks like it was painted onto my body. No I do not wear stockings, and yes I am labeled as not tznius. As I should be. But when one gets that label they are forced to embrace it. If my community thinks im prust because I hate wearing stockings, slowly slowly it will lead to breaking other halachas. so no, this isnt a big picture, this is a small picture that gets blown out of proportion
(9/8/2014 11:26:32 AM)
89
To the author
Bochur, listen very carefully:

Yeshiva is a great place, and it keeps you sheltered and focused strictly on Ruchnius. Once you (and your friends) enter the true realm of Gashmius, you will see things in a very different light.

Tznius is important, Tznius is Halacha, but in the grand scheme of things this will be your LEAST problem.

From a practical point of view, what you should be looking for, and what should be most important to you is:

1) A girl that does not have serious emotional baggage. (This will make your life a living hell. Covering her elbows and knees won't help you one bit here)

2) A girl that is kind and has good Middos.

3) A girl that is wise. (I emphasize WISE. Not necessarily intelligent, not necessarily smart, but definitely WISE).

There are girls that are extremely makpid on Tznius, but have serious problems in other areas, and there are girls that are not so makpid on Tznius that are extremely kind.

Generalizing is something only a fool would do.
(9/8/2014 11:35:57 AM)
90
to#85
No married women is looking for other men. Stop this nonsense. Some of you really need to think before you write.
You could try a burka.
(9/8/2014 11:36:34 AM)
91
To The Typical Bochur:
I am so happy that you and your friends are so vigilant in your quest for a tznius wife. You seem to all be paying close and careful attention to the details...
BUT YOU MISSED THE POINT!
Tznius is not just about what you wear. Its an entire way of living. It is not an ideology specified only for women. Screaming in public is not tznius. Drunks in a shul, walking down the street, or even at someones shakos table - even in the name of a "chassidishe Fabrengen" is also not "tznius". Staring at girls regardless of how they are dressed is equally lacking in this department...Not to mention todays trend of boys wearing pants that closely resemble the tights they wish their "Eishes Chayil" to wear!
So before you pour your sad little heart out to the world...just remember...there are girls that want "Tznius" boys too...And their happen to be many tznius girls out there...You are just not seeing them because they are Tznius
And that is the main point
Good luck on your quest
The proud mother of Very Tznius children...male & female
(9/8/2014 11:43:31 AM)
92
yet another reason
It is hard to find tznius clothing in most places these days! Skirts are either right at the knee, or are tight/clingy, or are ridiculously long (virtually dragging on the ground). I have seen perfectly chassidish women, who have none of the above issues, with their knees barely covered, presumably because they needed a new skirt and that's what they could find. The frum stores need to start carrying tznius clothing (and nothing but). For that to happen, there need to be manufacturers that make tznius clothing. And make it affordable.
(9/8/2014 11:43:53 AM)
93
And now for the good news:
With the help of HaShem, articles such as this one will help COL retain and expand its readership.

Wishing COLLIVE much success.

An avid collive fan.
(9/8/2014 11:44:07 AM)
94
To # 72 perfect !
To #72 perfect!
(9/8/2014 11:52:14 AM)
95
that why i send to bais yaakov
I really appreciate this article. Will show to my very tzniusdik, beautiful daughter, whom I choose to send to Bais Yaakov due to their high level of tznius. The tznius of a woman is equal to the Torah of a man. That's the emes girls:)
(9/8/2014 12:02:16 PM)
96
bochurim have to be tznius as well
bochurim themselves should also introspect and act tznius. its a two way street. Its not just about clothes- it reflects a mode of servitude to HKBH
(9/8/2014 12:07:31 PM)
97
To #40
I'm trying to find a girl for my son and he also thinks I am a dinosaur. I keep telling him, if you want certain standards in a wife you need to have the same standards as a husband. The yeshivos have dropped the ball with these young men.
(9/8/2014 12:11:37 PM)
98
According to halacha tznius
When you say according to halacha tznius,what do you mean?i agree with everything you wrote,and girls must dress more appropriately. Problem is,i see girls with short skirts,low necks etc who really think they are dressed ok! And many people will tell you a certain girl is tzanua and then you see her and wonder,and are told,oh,this passes for tznius today. I feel this is a key part of the problem,nobody recognizes basic halacha.
(9/8/2014 12:13:14 PM)
99
History
Today's "not tzniius" is more tzniius then how people dresses historically. Soon all will be wearing burqaues.
(9/8/2014 12:24:40 PM)
100
I'll marry them.
I will marry the untzinus girls. Somebody has to.

Also to the "atypical bochur". I don't know if you meant to write "a typical bochur" with a space in between the first two words. If you didnt Atypical and "a typical" are opposites. If you meant to write it that way, that is some brilliant satire. Otherwise, spend less time staring at girls' legs and more time learning he basics if English grammar. Stop projecting you insecurities on the opposite gender.
(9/8/2014 12:27:20 PM)
101
I'll marry 72
Unless 85 is your mother
(9/8/2014 12:28:53 PM)
102
KEEP IT TOGETHER !
BH everyone has so much to say on this subject. Let's get together & make a Tznius Awareness Month ! Shuls, schools
Groups, individuals should use their talents in creating events & projects in educating & bringing this mitzvah to life in a positive way. There is so much that can be done & many people are trying but it's not enough. If we can have achdus as a community on this - we will make a difference. Sounds like a dream, but WE need to make it a reality. Elul is a perfect time to begin planning.
(9/8/2014 12:30:15 PM)
103
UNREAL
THIS BOCHUR WROTE A SIMPLE THING.
GUYS LIKE GIRLS WHO ARE TZNIUS!!!
THEY ARENT LOUD, OBNOXIOUS, NOT TAKEN CARE OFF.
THEY DRESS NICE
(9/8/2014 12:32:02 PM)
104
Yes! Same disconnect for girls and boys...
My daughter's friends who don't wear stockings, dress in mini-skirts, but love to farbreng and sing niggunim, are insulted when redt a shidduch with a guy who trims his beard! Not helping the shidduch crisis, that's for sure. Totally confusing to us in the older generation.
(9/8/2014 12:37:16 PM)
105
Really?
Of course you want your wife to be tznius in the street, you have nothing to lose. But what about in the privacy of your own home, are you willing to keep the highest standards of tznius between yourselves?
(9/8/2014 12:39:22 PM)
106
Thank you!!
You put it beautifully!!
(9/8/2014 12:40:40 PM)
107
Thank you!
A breath of fresh air!
(9/8/2014 12:44:56 PM)
108
for all you negative comments:
All I can say is take it.ok, it's the truth and that's it.stop running away from your problems. You know it's the truth so stop saying" how does he know what im thinking" take it and suck it up you know you are wrong and face it.
(9/8/2014 12:55:44 PM)
109
still waiting
What about all the beautiful, well dressed, eidel girls who can't find a date because the ratio of normal bochurim who make it is not compatible with number of refined,smart, yes even well dressed and pretty girls from good homes!!!!
(9/8/2014 1:00:38 PM)
110
to #54
You are right that the men may not be strong enough to resist.
But if you like it or not it is the way Hashem created the world and the women have the achrayos to help to NOT cause the men to sin by dressing provocatively. The women is the one who gains the most from this in terms of self-respect and brochos AND SAFETY. May Hashem help us do this the right way and Hashem be melamed zchus on all of us, but we have to grow in the right direction and NOT blame it on the men....
(9/8/2014 1:07:37 PM)
111
to #89 RIGHT ON!!! But...
The stores in our community starting with the ones for kids that carry a ton of tight and non-tznius clothing, need to carry appropriate clothing.
At the same time people need to take acharayus for what they buy, if its not OK, don't go buying it and say :that's all they had, so thats what I bought..."
(9/8/2014 1:10:22 PM)
112
#72
WELL Said
(9/8/2014 1:11:29 PM)
113
Thinking of what Rebetzin said about soldiers
I read that Rebetzin Chaya Mushka said the soldiers fighting for eretz Yisroel are 'tzadikim without yarmulkes.' These girls are 'rzadekeses without tznius clothes' - many have so much more ahavas Yisroel than the rest of us. Unfortunately, it is the times of 'ikvesa d'Moshicha.' We need to cry out for Moshiach more - and then the whole world will be tznius.
(9/8/2014 1:12:09 PM)
114
This letter seems a bit misguided
A lot of people are commenting on whether or not this bochur is right (I wish he was but I can tell you from experience that way more bochurim are afraid that their wife won't dress well enough - and most boys standard of dressing well is not within the geder of tznius- than that she won't dress tznius). Others are commenting on whether it's right to categorize or judge girls. But nobody seems to find issue with the idea of the letter itself- is it tznius for a BOCHUR to be writing an open letter to girls about tznius? And not just about tznius, but about why it will be important in the relationship of marriage... doesn't seem so appropriate. I'm not one to say "his head shouldn't be there, why is he thinking about this," etc etc. But thinking about something and voicing your thoughts are two very different things. Discuss these ideas with your sisters; maybe if they understand and care they will discuss it with their friends; but it is not your place (mitzad tznius!) to be writing an open letter to girls to tell them what you feel about how they dress. Is it possible that it might make a change? Maybe, I don't know. That doesn't make it right. In Yiddishkeit we don't believe that the end justifies the means, however good the intentions may be.
(9/8/2014 1:12:52 PM)
115
what YESHIVAH did you go to????
I would love to send my son to this YESHIVAH that actually teaches bochurim how to write , spell , make paragraphs .....
(9/8/2014 1:13:58 PM)
116
To #5
I LOVE YOU!
You are awesome :-)
(9/8/2014 1:17:05 PM)
117
to 90
Ha ha.. Nice one!
(9/8/2014 1:18:29 PM)
118
Chassidisher Bochur
I am a chassidisher bochur that got a good shlichus and married a prominent family and I didn't care at all about tzniyus not before marriage and not now after, its none of my business what they do! BH my wife is very stirct about tzniyus with all the hiddurim of nesi doireinu but its not what went in to my thinking process at all
(9/8/2014 1:23:14 PM)
119
To # 74
Who in the world wants YOU as a mother-in law ??
(9/8/2014 1:28:21 PM)
120
I'm with you
Articulate and to the point. I think this should be awake up call on the values men really hold.
(9/8/2014 2:09:51 PM)
121
to those who dress untzniuss
I love watching your kids grow up confused on the double standard of yiddishkite you bring into your homes...
Don't complane when they themselves don't end up taking a Jewish lifestyle so seriously ( they'll just be walking in the ways of their mother's)
(9/8/2014 2:11:19 PM)
122
Another typical Bochur who disagree's
I am very surprised that i am the first one bringing this up.
I am another typical bochur and i don't believe this is true with most bochrim.
Most bochrim will marry a girl who dresses non tzniusdik for the same reason that most girls dress non tzniusdik, unfortunately it has become the accepted norm in our society.
The reason i believe this to be the case, is because if you look around this is not the only thing this way, Davening after chatzos, and not because they were learning chasiduss all morning falls into the same category, its accepted today so nobody blinks. "All tvayesh mipney hamaligim", the Rebbe said is one off the greatest difficulty's in our generation, we have to build an environment where Tznius, davening at a normal hour, is the norm so that we wont need more of these discussions any more. "U'moloh ho'oretz...." We need Moshiach now, when the Rebbe said it and said we should all feel it he meant it.
(9/8/2014 2:24:53 PM)
123
superficial
This author is being very superficial and so are his friends. Instead of looking at a girl's personality and quality, all they look at is how she dresses. Great job.
(9/8/2014 2:36:54 PM)
124
To #85
Well said!
(9/8/2014 2:52:07 PM)
125
wow
This article basically reads like this: Girls shouldn't have choice about what they wear because of MY feelings. Very selfish and i know the ladies love it when guys tell them how to dress.
(9/8/2014 3:03:17 PM)
126
Excellent piece
This kind of stuff, back to real halacha, back to what's kept Judaism going, will bless COL and make it grow as 72 and 91 said. Sad to see the attackers, who always attack Emes. The Rebbe experienced it too and then pointed out that it shows you've affected them. It's also a sign of Moshiach's coming. Zechus HaRabbim Talui Boch, bochur and COL.
(9/8/2014 3:19:23 PM)
127
Big question here ?
What happens to the perfectly tznus girl after she is married you meet her in the street the skirt and the tichel all the way up I assume the new husband didint care where was he when you were having this conversation?

(9/8/2014 3:22:33 PM)
128
number 72
I love you!
your spot on!
(9/8/2014 3:26:08 PM)
129
To 100
If the rest of his writing is any proof, I'm quite sure 72 meant to write "atypical" and knows exactly what it means. Brilliant piece, 72, I'd like to see more writing from you
(9/8/2014 3:37:25 PM)
130
Why is Tznius such a big deal?
It's very simple, it is Tznius or it isn't. There really isn't black and white. So my question is why does everyone make such a big deal when articles urge people to be tznius? Are you saying we should publish articles that heaven forbid go for the opposite? Maybe the simple truth is, instead of encouraging people to be untznius and throwing a fit with 100+ comments anytime someone posts an article about tznius, think about it for a minute or two and decide why it really makes you angry.
(9/8/2014 3:37:25 PM)
131
# 55 you are brilliant
Everyone should read comment # 55-that is the solution...
(9/8/2014 3:37:44 PM)
132
to 121
Chill out and stop judging people! Every one had their own life and with that comes their own problems
I'm sure you have your own so focus on them and not on others I'm tired and sick of people who think that they're better than another because they're more religious

Be a decent human.... live and let live! Last time i checked this is a free country so if a person wants to express him or herself a certain way he/she should be able to do that without someone looking over his/her shoulder! Without someone judging and saying stuff like the person probably doesn't get enough attention and so on.....

People be decent! Open your mind it's good for you!
(9/8/2014 3:43:29 PM)
133
to 101
Best. Coment. Ever
(9/8/2014 3:47:35 PM)
134
mashpia in a prominent yeshiva
bochrim need to their heads in samach vov and ayin beis, and to stop looking at every girl that passes by themif their skirt is too tight or their shirt is see through. bochrim need and must stop looking at girls down kingston. just focus on the mamor u learned that day. stop staring
(9/8/2014 3:54:07 PM)
135
to the author
Speak to people who actually have some experience before posting ur "bull shoves" online
(9/8/2014 3:54:31 PM)
136
HYPOCRITE!
Gotta love these typical bochutim! They can do things that "are clearly wrong" yet they want a wife who is perfectly tznuis?! Its a two way street, buddy... You get the girl that's in your level, not higher. Marriage isn't about the men going out partying and doing whatever they please while at the sane time having a wife who actually follows halacha and doesn't do things that are "clearly wrong". You got a lot of growing up to do before you are ready for marriage, apparently!
(9/8/2014 4:00:30 PM)
137
From a guy
Why does this topic get folks riled up. Are we that judgmental and rude when it comes to this topic. I find it taxing and annoying.

#119
That comment was inappropriate and your making my point.
(9/8/2014 4:00:42 PM)
138
Knowing all the answers
It is amazing that there are three people that know ALL the answers to each and every one of the world's problems:

Taxi drivers, Barbers and Bochurim.

(not necessarily in that order).
(9/8/2014 4:00:47 PM)
139
Tznius?
Was once a typical bochur, and got married a couple of years ago - I was offered many shidduchim, and only ONE of them - there was a SMALL problem with tznius.
MOST Lubavitch girls dress tznius - only a few individuals dress PARTIALLY untznius.
Focus on the inner of the person, and not the outer!
Looking forward seeing photos of your L'chaim, here on collive.

(9/8/2014 4:00:51 PM)
140
well said
you speak with conviction and depth. I am also a bochur and agree 100%. I WOULD NEVER MARRY AN UNTZNIUSDIKE GIRL.
(9/8/2014 4:02:02 PM)
141
Who do you think you are?
Do you think you can just make demands on how girls should be so that you will be satisfied? This article is extremely chauvenistic. We aren't here to impress YOU. Please don't think that when you spill the secret "guess what, you thought guys like girls who dress untzniusly - surprise we dont!" that not everyone will run to please. you.
It's comical that you think that way, but it's so off.
No offense, but it doesnt look like you really understand anything about Tznius and it is very clear that you want tznius women for your comfort - not for a religious reason.

I'm so frustrated with this attitude. Girls arent to be talked to this way. ENOUGH.
(9/8/2014 4:16:55 PM)
142
Wow!
Amazing article! Vey well written and explained! In an in Unjudgmental way, understanding and trying to help us (girls) understand. I really appreciate what you wrote, it gave me a big push and strength to continue, bec it can be a struggle..,
Thank you!
(9/8/2014 5:00:10 PM)
143
To the collive readers
Anyone have a number (info) for this guy I might be interested
A ch Shadchan
(9/8/2014 5:01:39 PM)
144
Can you imagine a girl would write an article about ...
not wanting a husband who has inappropriate thoughts? Truthfully, I understood your point that guys (in the not Jewish world too) don't want to marry not tznius girls. They are nice to look at but at the end of the day you want a tznius wife.

I found the listing of why women would not be tznius like a woman writing why a man would have inappropriate thoughts. We don't get it, and you don't really either. Sure you can spit off the basics of what you know, and so can a woman write about a man, but overall you really are writing about something you don't struggle with or have as much of a struggle.

Writing a woman wants attention for being untznius is a waste, because if this is the case then it won't help, and if it's not it leaves the reader annoyed. Tznius is a lot about convenience and what's in the stores now a days.
(9/8/2014 5:15:58 PM)
145
thank you
thanks for this article. i really apreciated it and i'll try to be better in my own tznius
(9/8/2014 5:18:26 PM)
146
Let's set just a couple of things straight.
Let's set just a couple of things straight.

1 Most girl that are untznius can't find tznius clothing or when they bought it was tznius and now they grew taller or what not. Unless we're talking about shorts most people don't intend to be untznius.

2 boys have the same tznius laws as girls so toss those tight shirts and pants.

3 What is the point of blame? Why not right an informitive article about what it looks like to be tznius with sources of course. And the link it to clothing that looks tznius and is at a decent price and obviously will cover everyones knees from 4' to 6'. I wish you the best of luck on that endeavour.

Remember don't talk till you fully understand. It's a good lesson in life.
(9/8/2014 5:45:09 PM)
147
to 135
You're right. Maybe Bochrim don't know why girs dress untznius. But that's the perception the Bochrim have as to why girls dress untznius. So maybe a girl should post the REAL reasons they dress untznius. Should be interesting
(9/8/2014 5:47:57 PM)
148
LOL LOL LOL
I LOVE CROWN HEIGHTS. "The most judgmental place on earth".
(9/8/2014 6:01:56 PM)
149
That is A Vital Point to Ponder
Whenever an article comes out presenting any side of a story there will be an immediate outcry over another angle that was not addressed. Correct. Life in this world is made up of multiple angles and will continue to be so until moshiach unveils the echad in all of it.
As we work and struggle to reach that point each of us have to find the angle that DOES address our work in order to know what to get on with. Do boys need to change too ? Yes. Are there other angles to the story? Of course.
For this particular angle I found this piece well written and very honest and true! This Bochur did a service to many girls. Whoever wants to build a solid lasting and Jewish home needs to be aware of the reality written here. Thank you. Even though i am married many years already thank G-D i found it eye opening. Especially as my boys hit their teens.
(9/8/2014 6:02:48 PM)
150
to #89
we see this same argument all the time when it comes to tzneeus ie being a good person is what really counts. this bochur is addressing tzneeus right now;don't mix in other issues. it's not the least of shidduchim issues because 1) it is a very definite reflection of one's yiras shamayim which is foundational to a frum marriage and 2) it has a tremendous effect on the children. Fooling one's self is easy but a chosid has to be honest with himself.
(9/8/2014 6:13:42 PM)
151
thank you
thank you mr bachur who thinks he can tell us girls how to dress! look at yourselves before us girls
(9/8/2014 6:16:45 PM)
152
great
impressed, gr8 job
(9/8/2014 6:28:48 PM)
153
Thank u
Very inspiring
I will make a hachlata to b more careful with tznius
If u Have a rude comment to say don't write it bec ur ruining it for the ppl who rlly appreciated this article
Thnk u
(9/8/2014 6:38:32 PM)
154
good to know
after seeing some bochurim that are so misguided
it feels so good to know that there are boys out there
that still want tznius girls.
(9/8/2014 6:42:15 PM)
155
what category does number 141 fall into?
Maybe a little rebellious, with a shtickel secular influence and defenatly confused.
(9/8/2014 6:48:59 PM)
156
POINT NO 5
STOP blaming the girls! keep in mind the most important part.
IF THE GIRLS WOULD NOT GET THE MEN'S REACTION, THEY WOULD NOT BE DRESSING, BEHAVING, LIVING, ACTING, THE WAY THEY DO. FULL STOP.
FIRST TAKE CARE OF THE MEN...
(9/8/2014 6:53:21 PM)
157
Hello
Thank you, today I had to make a decision on tznuis and you helped me make it. Saying that I don't care if you'd marry a girl as tznuis as me because I will look for someone with the same values as me. I really wish my school was more open to talk about this though. You are a great writer and I wish you lots of success In meeting a girl who has the same VALUES as you. With much respect. A girl
(9/8/2014 6:53:42 PM)
158
FACT-----FACT-----FACT
Your outsides show the INsides.
If you dress untznius, then YES you LACK yiras shomayim.
Do you want to marry such a girl?
Not me.
(9/8/2014 7:14:38 PM)
159
to 156
When you say things like that it is made clear that you haven't read the op ed. he says there that there's a cause , and there's a reaction one that is evil and not very likely to be sustained.
(9/8/2014 7:32:53 PM)
160
to #113
Those soldiers the Rebbitzen was referring to weren't raised frum or Chasidish for that matter! C'mon,our girls know better and all the Chitas in the world won't make up for the Chillul Lubavitch this issue causes.
(9/8/2014 7:33:56 PM)
161
Come look at me...
Now that I know that you typical bochurim want a girl that is tznius, you finally have provided me the way to get your attention. Come look at me now -- I am that girl standing on the corner all tzniusdik...

Let me know if you see me.

If you don;t get it by now, you may never get it. We girls are not looking for guys staring at us whether we are tzniusdik or not. We are seeking healthy, chassidishe individuals who are dedicated to the Rebbe's inyonim.

I can only wonder how the Rebbe would react to a "typical bochur" writing such an article! In which yeshiva, which mashpia, in which maamar chassidus, did you learn that this is the issue a bochur should be writing about??!!
(9/8/2014 7:34:59 PM)
162
Sorry the girls are the problem
I'm a girl and I know that we all know how we girls/women love to peer pressure each other. The girls are the problem, the women are the problem, if no one is willing to say X is untznius no wonder the rest of us feel pressure to dress and act like the rest of everyone else. It's a fair thing to ask a wife to be modest. Sorry ladies most girls stop growing after their 16th birthday. The skirt was okay and you got taller? What about the twenty year olds that wear short/tight pencil skirts? Or women who wear the sheitels that are beyond too long? They are of all ages and sizes. As a woman I would love to see girls have more self respect, or an honest voice, why dress untznius and then get mad when bochurim are looking for someone who covers up more?
(9/8/2014 7:35:01 PM)
163
to #100
Since cherem rabbeinu gershom you can only marry one girl
(9/8/2014 7:40:25 PM)
164
to 50
you clearly have no idea of what go"s on in yeshivos i learned in regular yeshivos and never heard that
(9/8/2014 7:42:17 PM)
165
yes it is a big deal
first of all there are some teenage girls who are not dressing appropriately according to our tradition that's the way it's supposed to be there are lots of little boys and teenage boys are acting inmature and I always hear it on the streets and it's not appropriate some others are responsible. For their daughters or married daughters to dressed properly that is our tradition
(9/8/2014 7:47:11 PM)
166
To #157
Wouldn't be surprised if u were really a bochur writing that..
(9/8/2014 7:58:57 PM)
167
It's not about superficialness
It's about halacha. A guy doesn't want a tznius girl because he is materialistic, he wants a tznius girl because it says something about the girl. It says that she is careful with halacha and wants to create a holy marriage with her bashert. She wants to bring Hashem into their lives. Just like bochrim want to marry girls who are careful with kashrus or shatnus, they want girls who are careful with tznius. they want someone who follows halacha. Is that really so difficult to understand? ONly if you kid yourself because you are not interested in changing or working on yourself.
(9/8/2014 8:05:30 PM)
168
To 143
It sounds like Miss 157 might be interested in being the "girl who has the same VALUES" as the "great writer". May we see them united here on COLLIVE bekarov!
(9/8/2014 8:25:29 PM)
169
Huh
The fact the the number of immodestly dressed women is increasing is a reflection of the laws of supply and demand. If men do not prefer those women, why do their number continue to grow? If these women are not generally desirable, who is marrying them?

In case you haven't noticed, there is an almost perfect parallelism between the modernity of men and women in the Lubavitch community. This is called a cultural shift, not misaligned preferences.

Anecdotes are not evidence; evidence is evidence.
(9/8/2014 8:29:03 PM)
170
dear bochur
i agree in some things you say in the article but you cant expect to have a perfect tznius woman as a wife if you are not perfect yourself -- in order to find someone thats tzniut and modest then you have to to be on that level -- you cannot expect your wife to be more religous or modest than you are !!
(9/8/2014 8:41:21 PM)
171
To author and positive comment writers!Thank You for your article and comments
Despite the neg comments im inspired because lately I kept telling myself go with ur gut and be tznuis, I really was doubtful whether a guy wud be interested in me and now I'm grateful that I stayed by my decision and not changed how i dress, so thank you for the vote of confidence
(9/8/2014 8:56:57 PM)
172
amazing article!
this was very helpful to me and im sure many others as well. in camp these past summer a few of my bunkmates and i were discussing why girls found tznius so tough and we thought it came from peer pressure. most girls know how wrong it is, yet unfortunately they don't dress tzniusdik for a good status.
i also found it very interesting that this is what bochurim spend there time thinking about:) though, ithink your making a small mistake. one of the reasons we dress tzniousdik is not to attract a boys attention, if you will be walking around inspecting the tznius girls, whats the point?
thank u for taking the time to write these article, im sure it was helpfull to many!

- a high school girl
(9/8/2014 9:15:47 PM)
173
Offended?
Why is everyone taking offense at this article? Did it hit a raw nerve and the truth hurts?? Everyone is scrambling to justify themselves and their behavior. Are you all insecure with the need to dress untznius to please or attract someone's attention? Forget who said what. Just open the Shulchan Aruch and some sichos from the Rebbe (especially those addressed to women at the convention). What more do you need. Read about all the brochos that many of the Jewish women were blessed with because the Torah said they were tzniusdig. Does anyone not want or need brochos?
When I purchased dresses for my girls that had short sleeves, I lengthened them in a fashionable manner. Its not an excuse that is what the stores sell. Alter it to make it tzniusdig and perhaps you may need a larger size, not to reveal parts that should be hidden.
The yetzer horah is having a field day. He is definitely succeeding in his battle and delaying the coming of Moshiach every day. Do we have to succumb to his pressure? We can and will overcome, but who will be first to make a stand and go against the untznius flow? How long will it take and at what expense? We and all of klal yisroel should have a happy, healthy and blessed new year.
(9/8/2014 9:24:48 PM)
174
Forget the tznius....
The author is trying to say or at least what I take from this post that a bochur does not want to marry a girl that is rebellious or craves attention or is influenced by the secular world or confused and as one of the commenters added "to lazy to do the right thing" . Lack of tznius is a symptom of these!
(9/8/2014 9:27:28 PM)
175
WHETHER YOU LIKE IT OR NOT...!
THE FACT IS THAT:
WHOEVER THINKS THAT THIS ARTICLE IS IN ANY WAY WRONG, THAN YOU SHOULD KNOW---THE FACT IS THAT U MUST BE TZNIUS, NOT ONLY FOR U, BUT FOR UR COMMUNITY. SO GROW UP!!!!!!
(9/8/2014 9:34:12 PM)
176
to all those reading
I would like to challenge this bochur to walk from Empire to Eastern Parkway (the kingston hill) in his $7 melas stocking and skirt, trying to walk at a normal pace while making sure his skirt doesn't go even/2 an inch above his knee. YOU HAVE 24 HOURS TO COMPLETE THIS MISSION.

These type of struggles are ones typical girls have everyday,so don't be so quick to judge. "Try walking a mile in our skirt, and see how far you get)
(9/8/2014 9:45:49 PM)
177
I'm sure by the time you get to this comment your aren't reading them anymore....
But I'm a girl that dresses pretty tznius but wtvr areas I do slack off in (like not covering knees when sitting) is def bc it's ok and everyone does it, WHY DO WE ALL OUR TZNIUS TO SLACK OFF? And since when is it appropriate FOR A BOCHUR TO WRITE AN OP-ed ABOUT TZNIUS??? If u really see tznius as a problem then u be tznius yourself and maybe on ur date discuss it with a girl.
(9/8/2014 9:48:35 PM)
178
It's secularism.
Being a Bochur myself, I can tell you, in both genders there is an increase in secularization. We are influenced by what We see. I won't go into great length and detail about how the influence penetrated, especially into the Chabad community as opposed to other Jewish / Chasidish communities because it may be quite provocative and offensive. But that's the main reason why some girls dress the way They do. It is true that Tznius is a beautiful thing, and that we men "should" appreciate it, But as you generalized about women, there's also another side to the coin and that's what men want nowadays and don't toss out comments that "all" bochurim want tznius.

Now, if I may, the whole idea or ideal of Tznius has, unfortunately, become a tradition/custom. What is important to remember is, that this is part of Halacha. For instance, wearing red clothing and there's much more. So the same as davenning with Minyan, and even more than wearing a Yarmulka (debatable), But definitely more fundamental in Yiddishkeit than Chasidus. My point: It's a nisoyon for the girl to be seen in this light.

A bochur who's being honest.
(9/8/2014 9:57:44 PM)
179
a high school girl
If you want to get rid of the tznuis problems first stop putting goyishkiet in the girls head such as not reading non jewish books in school. once you start with just a little bit off klipa even if its in school it can take a girl very far!
(9/8/2014 10:01:44 PM)
180
If you have a problem, you deal with it.
But modesty is not defined by, or even primarily about, how much of ones body is covered. It is about comportment and behavior. It is about recognizing that one need not be the center of attention.
(9/8/2014 10:11:30 PM)
181
To #176
I'd like to challange you, to ware wollen tzitzis, yarmulka hat and jacket, tefillin in one hand dvar Malchus in the other, oh, and don't forget the bendel:) on a hot summer day during prime sun hours (12pm till 2, Friday mivtziom hours)...
This is a struggle typical bochrim face daily (especially Fridays) try walking a mile in my hat and jacket and see how far you get (though that would resolve the tznius issue).
Ok, I'm getting too carried away.
But seriously, we all have different challenges in different aspects, that's just a petty excuse that accomplishes nothing!
(9/8/2014 10:38:22 PM)
182
@ 92
Somehow I find it hard to believe one size bigger will make all the difference
(9/8/2014 10:47:18 PM)
183
Typical crown heights
Instead of accepting the "fact" that we do have a major issue of women / girls dressing beyond not tznius we start poking fun at the writer and finding faults with everyone and everything.
Some times silence is simply the best answer
(9/8/2014 10:49:25 PM)
184
@ 141
If you read the article you'll see he's not talking down and he just stating some facts in that sentence. What he means is that IF that's why you're doing it THEN surprise... He blames a lack of people talking about the issue honestly and nicely as a huge factor. Also he in no way demands anything anywhere in the article just food for thought.
(9/8/2014 10:55:53 PM)
185
The Mothers of Crown Heights Are The Leaders
The apple does not fall far from the tree.Men like to look and.women like to be looked at. Every bochur wants his
prospective Kallah to dress like his mother..The Bubbes led
the best.Now it's up to the daughters-the CH Moms!!!!!
(9/8/2014 11:00:26 PM)
186
typical girl
We are not interested in the typical bochur who spends his time staring and noticing what the girls are or not wearing. You should be learning in yeshiva and not know whats happening on Kingston!!
(9/8/2014 11:07:15 PM)
187
Doubt
This is probably not the official, tallied consensus of "your average bochur" whatever that means. It's one side of a multi-faceted issue.

If you're a female looking for your mate, are you going to shape your opinion on your dress habits by an anonymous post online or are you going to discuss personal tastes and living habits with the person with whom you consider potentially marrying?

Perhaps there are people who shape their own behavior by what others say others say.

Hmmm. Maybe after all this is a meaningful post. Written by a certain type of person and absorbed by a similar person.
(9/8/2014 11:24:34 PM)
188
realy the core of what he's saying makes a lot of sense that if a girl would just think seriously what fish she's atracting she would dress tzniusdik
(9/8/2014 11:46:54 PM)
189
Just summed up the "Shiduch Chrisis"
As another typical bocher that I am I agree fully! now can you write a op ed on the Shadchan Chrisis ?
(9/9/2014 1:04:27 AM)
190
love!
I absolutely love this article and I know just the girl this guy should marry! She would so write something like this! I love how he identifies the cause and says to fix it instead of trying the same tactic that schools try over and over of learning the halachos over and over! The first step to fixing an issue is to find the underlying cause and he did just that!
And i think it's so powerful written from a guys point of view!
Anyone who finds this offensive or judgemental, your problem is your ego- your sense of "I can do what I want and if you try and tell me I shouldnt than you are wrong about whatever you say"- so get out of your ego bubble and have some humility! And good luck to you!
Sincerely,
Bochur I need your name
(9/9/2014 1:05:41 AM)
191
He's mostly correct...
When I was in the parshah, I discussed this with my friends and it basically boiled down to this: dressing tznius should not be lumped in together with all areas of halacha, and therefore, even a bochur who isn't super chasidish does have the right to want a girl that is tznius. It's because tznius isn't just a religious rule - goyim want tznius wives as well - according to society's standards. They don't want their wives drawing attention from other men, and more importantly, they don't want their wives seeking the attention of other men. DISCLAIMER: of course, if a bochur goes to clubs or hangs out with girls, then he does not have the right to demand a tznius girl, but just because he doesn't wear a hat and jacket or do chitas, it doesn't mean he has no right to want a healthy and tznius marriage. If a bochur isn't the most chassidish, then he has no right to demand his wife to be the most chassidish, but he can still demand tznius. Only if he is not tznius does he lose that right. Tznius is derech eretz - which is why even the more lenient bochurim want it - and derech eretz kodmah la'torah. and chassidishkeit.
(9/9/2014 2:24:10 AM)
192
this is so funny
that people literally argue on this website!
(9/9/2014 2:33:19 AM)
193
shidduch crises
I've heard mothers outright lying that their daughter "is very careful with tznius" when we get together to make shiduchim, because she's hoping to get a good bochur for her child. Even if the girl gets a date, the boy refuses to go out with her again because she is anything but tznius.
Every name is followed with, "but is she tznius?", and time and again the mothers lies and say "yes", and the girl goes out and is turned down over and over again.
Because the good boys want a tznius girl.
So please, if your knee is just uncovered a little, and you wear snug skirts, lost the tznius button on your shirts, and show off your toes in stockingless legs, PLEASE tell your mother you don't want a chassidishe bochur, becasue you are not a chasidishe girl. Period. End of story.
And save the excuses. Your mother didn't die from wearing stockings and covering her body. It's not so hard, and your father wears how many layers walking from Empire to Eastern Parkway? Undershirt, tzitzits, shirt, kapote and talis, topped off with a yarmulke and hat? Did you ever see him go without long pants and socks? And you can't wear 1 decent top?
It's Elul. Time to wake up and smell the roses. All the brachos are waiting for you - but you need to dress like a bas melech to receive them.
Please wake up.
(9/9/2014 3:01:52 AM)
194
wow true
there are lots of little boys and teenage boys when they see a woman in the street that is not dressing properly they say stuff thats inappropriate our tradition is when a woman is in the street they should dress properly even on Shabbat as well yes it's not fair that we should look at you in the streets dressing inappropriate and its not fair god forbid I'm not saying anything bad about women as we Jews we have to try to follow our tradition your right its not that easy but you need to try your best there are so many little boys and teenage boys say stuff that is inappropriate it is not fair and its unacceptable
(9/9/2014 7:42:43 AM)
195
there is no denying it...
Any girl who says they dont get the slightest little ego boost while being 'checked out' while walking up kingston in her tight skirt is either lying to themselves or is an exception. So whilst it would be nice if the tznius girls were the ones who were noticed and 'appreciated', it just isn't the way it works - perhaps giving the girls a reason to dress a certain way.
As a girl who dresses at quite a high standard (I would like to think) I can say with certainty that when I am with friends who dress to 'impress' - there's no denying the fact that guys pay more attention to them and don't take a second glance at the 'tznius friend'. Just a little food for thought...
(9/9/2014 10:32:17 AM)
196
What a shame!
I find it sad that Crown Heights has become a place of insensitivity. I think alot of this is due to the growing amount of 'fashionistas' who have taken it upon themselves to provide 'tznius' (read: crazy tight and just on the knee) clothing to dress the teens of ch! Of course if beis rivka girls are buying this supposedly tznius clothing from supposedly frum women, then what else can we expect?? If these women want to wear these clothes and dress their own daughters this way then fine, but please do us all a favour and stop influencing our teens to fall into the same trap...
(9/9/2014 11:12:17 AM)
197
Give them something to respect.
In reality if someone chooses to behave in a certain way that is against the accepted standard of the community it is an issue between them and themselves (or spouse, if they have).
They should have respect for the community you say? Well then, give them something to respect. Give them a reason to respect the community.
(9/9/2014 12:11:06 PM)
198
To # 195
You are exactly right! Boys that check out girls and how they look are looking for girls that "look right" and don't pay much attention to others or what might be important on the inside. Those boys that do not "check out girls" and how they look are putting effort into making sure they get what they want in the inside , which is usually a tzinusdik quality girl!
(9/9/2014 1:02:11 PM)
199
You have a fan club
So much respect for whoever had the guts to write this.
(9/9/2014 3:23:54 PM)
200
I married an un tzniyus girl
My wife is the best person on earth. My parents would not hear of an untzniyus girl and turned down many girls for that reason. By hashgacha pratis they were misinformed about my wife and let me date her. Turns out she lacked in tzniyus for a reason not mentioned above simple laziness ,., over the years she has become more tzniyus and less lazy.
My point: try to get your best Hashem will do the rest and I'm a poet and I didn't even know it.
(9/9/2014 3:32:21 PM)
201
the problem is..
the problem is that too many mothers are looking for a perfect daughter in law for themselves ..tznius and all... and they dont seem to remember that its thier already married! its thier son their looking to marry off not themselves! and their son is not neccassarily interested in that...
(9/9/2014 3:36:06 PM)
202
amazing
This article is amazing! Whether a bochur wrote it or not its one hundred percent true. All those that have some sort of argument, CLEARLY you dont dress tzniusdik. A bochur isnt only looking at the way a girl dresses but it IT something important to look out for. Very very imprtant. A bochur isnt doing it for selfish reasons, its best for a women herself to dress properly!! And why wud they want to marry someone who attracts other men's attention! The article did not say thay boys dont have issuea of there own but reality is that tznius brings a lot of bracha to a home!!! Denying this article or arguing with it shows that youre the one with the problem...
(9/9/2014 4:12:49 PM)
203
What the Rebbe's said
I just got a new book with all the Rebbe's talks on modesty. I must say it is very well done.
It's called 'Bas Melech Pnima - The Rebbe on Modesty' and is available online here: www.merkazanash.com/store
(9/9/2014 5:23:01 PM)
204
Thanks Bochur
As a mother of a boy in shidduchim tznius is a big problem.
I start with "does the skirt cover her knees when sitting".
Very hard to get a yes to that question.
I do not ask about the denier of her tights because stockings themselves are a madreiga!!
What I can't ask about is how makpid she will be with covering her hair because no one knows.
I've seen chassidish married women open their doors with their Tichels slipping back or wearing it behind their ears so the sides of their hair show. It's not ok. But what's the poor yungerman supposed to do when he finds hisb "tznius" new wife doing that?
And why should a skirt just cover the knees when sitting & the girl constantly be pulling down? Add a couple of inches.
Go longer it's more slimming & classier!
(9/9/2014 5:36:56 PM)
205
to #125
wrong!!
He's not telling you not to dress that way bec. of HIS feelings! It's Halacha!! You shouldn't even need him to tell you!
(9/9/2014 5:44:54 PM)
206
Everybody GROW UP!
We are part of a larger community. Whether you like it or not, the world does not revolve around you. Our actions affect ourselves and the people around us. It's actually one of the fundamental beliefs of YIddishkeit. You are responsible for your own actions and the way those actions affect others. You want guys to work on themselves to ignore your lack of tznius....then you better be working on yourself too. It's a 2 way street. You don't get to do whatever you want without consequence. That is the most selfish attitude I have ever encountered. If you care about yourself, dress in a way that shows self respect. If you care about others, dress in a way that is respectful of their situation.

No one has it easy in this situation, but no one said it was supposed to be easy. In a community that cares about other, we make sacrifices for each other.

I'm a girl BTW and I know my own tznius challenges, but I'm also a sister and I know that my dress has an affect on the men I encounter in ways that I as a female do not fully understand, but can appreciate the repercussions of. I don't believe for a second that this was written by a bachur or even by a male, but that doesn't detract from the validity of some of his points.

Take responsibility for your actions and the way they affect others. That's LIFE!
(9/9/2014 5:51:37 PM)
207
The men don't dress any better.
Tznius is one big Catch 22, if you dress tzniusly people will judge you by it and if you dont dress tzniusly people will judge you by it as well.

The Talmud ultimately places the burden on men. So can we please either drop the subject or put the pressure on the guys?
(9/9/2014 6:35:31 PM)
208
dear tipycal bochur
U try to walk all day cz biking isn't tznius..
U try to cover your elbows and knees just cause it attracts the opposite gender.
Tznius has so many levels and details u could never understand...
Respect
(9/9/2014 6:59:36 PM)
209
Lack of Tznius due to Hypocrisy in CH
Personally, the reason why I don't dress tznius is because i am angry. I am angry at the hypocrisy demonstrated by the frum community of CH. It's somehow okay for the schools to lie to the government; it's okay for residents of CH to lie about food stamps; a man who committed financial fraud and sentenced to prison is heralded a national hero; the shallowness of the shidduch system....I can go on and on..The point of course is that I know that we are all humans which brings the challenges that come along with being one irrespective of the religion or sect one affiliates himself with. But why Tznius is prioritized and why the school emphasizes Tznius above basic respect, integrity, and honesty towards ourselves and others is beyond me. This is how I feel and this is probably how most girls feel if not consciously then subconsciously. The schools should focus on what's important-being a decent, non-judgmental, honest, and compassionate human being with respect for everyone., When the rabbonim, hanholim, and parents of the community inculcate these qualities within themselves, tznius will just automatically follow.
(9/9/2014 7:13:07 PM)
210
hayom yom
we are in this world together to give light and to always look positively at things. todays hayom yom. no offensive battle just use your energy for good deeds!! before ppl comment consider using positive outlook you might end up a happier person.
(9/9/2014 7:18:51 PM)
211
high school student
Thank you I really appreciated this article. I think its accurate.
(9/9/2014 7:36:32 PM)
212
boduk umenuso
who keep Tznius re mutzlochim and a REAL happy life, not fake happiness.
(9/9/2014 9:04:35 PM)
213
Teenage Girl
I wonder how many of the admirers fall into the demographic he was addressing. 4? Maybe 5? And they probably never had such a big battle with tznius. I and many of my friends had mostly the same reaction."A bachur thinks he's got tznius all figured out?! Is he drawing this knowledge from his many years of experience as a woman?" No one gives a hoot what he thinks.
Tznius is not up for public debate. There are many issues that people struggle with on a daily basis and there always have been but they are private struggles that do not require public discussion. Each person deals with his/her problems on his/her own or with close friends. But tznius is a topic that everyone has adopted as the public punching bag. It's true that this is because being not-tznius is a public sin and not done in the privacy of your homes like (most) of the others. But have you ever stopped to think what it's like for the people being told off? We know the halachos. We know that we shouldn't do this but you telling us off doesn't inspire us. It annoys us. I am sure that everyone has something they have a hard time with and you dont have the entire lubavitch community telling you off for it.
P.S. Girls are not-tznius for any number of reasons. And being not tznius does not mean she is not chassidish. That may be the only taaveh she combats but you wouldn't know because the rest is private.
(9/9/2014 9:28:47 PM)
214
Madre's of CH:
Funny how majority of these comments are from mothers who want all girls to dress like "beautiful maidelach". Meanwhile their daughters are going to school in Crown Heights, buying clothes and following the trends of all the popular stores in CH (Mimu Maxi, Frock swap e.c.t.). If your wondering why your daughter is dressing untzniusdik (*gasp* your daughter might dress not tznius), maybe it's the fact that the style in CH these days (where your kid lives) is wearing pants under dresses, wearing mini skirts and short sleeves that they call #modclothes on their posts. Side note: Don't get me wrong, I completely do not agree with anything this guy wrote (if it is a guy). I think it's disgusting when men try to talk to girls about tznius because they have absolutely no clue what it's like and how hard it is. Never mind the fact that guys can do whatever the heck they want, get away with it, and have a perfect resume for shidduchim. Practice what you preach.
(9/9/2014 10:03:48 PM)
215
to #186
I did not read close to all the comments, but I feel I have to respond to yours.
Typical girl, you don't get how men work. Most men don't stare at women or girls.When so many people walk around ch, it's just in their face. A bocher learning in yeshiva, should walk down Kingston blindfolded!? That's what your saying... if you are a typical girl, then we have a problem.
From a yungerman, who truly felt the same way as the author, when I was a bocher.
(9/9/2014 10:25:00 PM)
216
Disappointed in typical Bochur
Sounds quite superficial. what about fine character traits. Tznius is more than dress.Lets look at the whole person.
(9/9/2014 11:15:53 PM)
217
to#209
You hit the nail on the head. Also there is a reason why this topic gets so many comments.
(9/9/2014 11:17:59 PM)
218
I agree with #12, 17, 18, 26, 27 & 122
These days there are too many accepted un-norms and no one around to do anything about it. Mothers do try to get their daughters to dress more tsniusly but "everyone else is dressing like that".
The boys themselves have their own middos to worry about (shaving, jeans, late davening, clubbing, drinking excessively etc).
The inyan of having a Mashpia has fallen to the wayside. We really are in golas and need Moshiach now!
(9/9/2014 11:33:07 PM)
219
Singular Obsession
Why are all of the op-eds on this site about vanity and superficiality? Why is tznius this singular puritan obsession, while far more pressing character flaws are never opined about.

Where are the op-eds lamenting the "tzniusdik" people who commit welfare fraud, tax evasion, and gossip about others incessantly, to name just a few.

People who obsess over other peoples choice of dress are usually covering for their own character flaws, which they think they can mask with clothing.
(9/10/2014 12:22:57 AM)
220
Waited this long to comment along with the rest of the readers of this article.... Here goes.
I'm a bochur and I don't understand, for starters, why there are so many naysayers regarding the status of the author being a bochur or not. There's nothing written that behooves any objective reader into assuming that a married person or a female wrote it. If it was written with the intention to convey a point of view, then it indeed did just that. I can completely relate to the initial and basic premise delineated, which, to reiterate, was that (generally speaking) a healthy bochur wants a healthy girl for his wife. Whether or not it's a male persons' place to criticize and critique regarding the broad and encompassing topic of tznius is a different issue; perhaps those girls complaining about that are correct, it's not our place. But like several individuals mentioned, tznius is so much more than the inch measurement on a skirt and the like; it conveys an attitude and an approach about who the person is.
To empathize, and possibly to add additional insight, tznius for boys isn't simple either. Granted it takes on a different form, but it was meant to! Hashem created man and women as vastly different beings, so to compare at face value, with the same criteria as a reference, the two for tznius is somewhat absurd and off-mark. To the girls, in no way would I claim to understand your struggles or what makes you tick.
However, I can grant the vantage point of a bochur (and, coming from a place of healthy self-esteem and sense of who I am, I'll take it further and say that I think that I am a healthy person), I will say that the struggles of bochrim in tznius isn't solely relegated to shaving our beards and hanging out in bars, which are more extreme examples. What about changing clothes in a manner al pi Shulchan Aruch? There are quite a few halachos of tznius in the literal sense for men as well, although since it takes on a different form, (since we're different! ) it doesn't appear to fall under the same scrutiny the way we see it do for women. A bochur has his own areas to address this issue in ways that undoubtedly a female wouldn't personally be able to relate to. And frankly, that's OK.
What's also OK is for a bochur, who has, BH, a desire to want to establish a Jewish home, to prioritize certain qualities that he himself prizes and values into the implimentation of what will be his marriage. This isn't a condescending demand of girls worldwide; this is a beautiful and sincere admission of what, in a deep-rooted manner, matters to a bochur. I know it does that for me.
(9/10/2014 12:52:06 AM)
221
Well written!
Whenever I hear the Jewish community, or rather the Orthodox Jewish community accused of being narrow-minded, insulated and closed - I always vehemently disagree.
I list multiple reasons why we're not. I explain that there is a difference between protecting ourselves, our culture, our religion and not recognizing that there is a world around us.

A lot of the comments on articles like these make me think maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I'm being too idealistic, maybe more people then I realize really don't know how to interact with our secular surroundings. Maybe I should stop trying to convince people I meet otherwise.

The person who wrote this article sounds like a great guy, and to all those opposing - 1) You have no idea who he is and what experiences he has. 2) The fact that he may not be an expert in certain areas, doesn't negate the knowledge he has in other areas. 3) It's not rocket science to know that human beings often reject suggestions from others when 'It hits them where it hurts'.

Just a normal Chabad girl :) (If there is such a thing anymore.)
(9/10/2014 7:44:57 AM)
222
Demure
Tzinius or aggressive modesty?
(9/10/2014 9:14:08 AM)
223
to#219
There is other problems in the community. Why do the other problems get over looked and this one is at the top of the list.
(9/10/2014 10:12:21 AM)
224
comment 105
Says the smartest thing.
(9/10/2014 11:16:20 AM)
225
Mother of a brochur who feels the same
Weather we agree or not with the post, it is the truth of the sincere chabad bochurim. My son told me the exact sentiment before coming across this post. It is not our place to judge the boy who posted, or the less modest girls. The only message I will take from the post and from my sons clear vision of marrying a modest girl is that now I WILL DRESS MORE MODEST. .... .....thank u
(9/10/2014 1:01:16 PM)
226
Just a typical bochur
Just a typical bochur or not you sir know nothing about Woman and thair challenges, You are like the Muslims that blam the Woman when they are assaulted because of how they dress Insted of blaming the pig of a man that does it.

Just because Men have a problem looking past the dreesing of a Woman as You put it doesn't make it the Woman's problem, everyone has challenges they have to over come so Insted of telling the Girls to do something because you have no self controle do something about the pig in you.

I really hope you are a bocher because you have a lot to learn before you get married.

Just a typical Married Man
(9/10/2014 2:00:23 PM)
227
so what
to everyone that said a bochur is not able to understand the hardships of tznius so what sincew when is everything in torah so easy you think kashrus is so easy so what you have to work hard and follow the laws of torah
(9/10/2014 2:02:33 PM)
228
Girls:
To #222: Nice.
To all: Girls (people, children, teens, adults) everywhere are starving for real food, and they are being fed toxins, waste, garbage. This whole back-and-forth barely grazes the surface. Actually, it ignores the real issue. I have come to recognize this reality and remove myself from this culture. This is not about 'tsnius'. That's a distraction.
I realize I am speaking vaguely. I do this because I want people to become aware of, themselves, what I am hinting to.
To all girls out there: go find some truth, something real that will feed your soul. Ignore this political, aggressive, mass-produced sugary snack.

(9/10/2014 2:10:02 PM)
229
You need a reality check.
The fact is? The fact is that neither you, nor your friends, represent every guy, even more so 'normal' ones. In fact you represent the very guys that those "types" of girls DON'T want to marry (see? No problems here.) because you might walk the walk and dress the dress but you clearly don't know the first thing about talking the talk seeing as you cant understand the mere concept of being 'dam lekaf zechut'. I'm glad you've decided you're a maven on the subject of female behavior, but you simply are not. That is acutely obvious since you ignorantly did not consider the option in which a girl just comes from a more lenient back ground, who died and made you king? Why is YOUR way the right way? You think Gd is more concerned with my skirt length than this communities inability to treat others with common decency? Your as deluded as the rest of them. People like YOU are the reason said "rebellion" exists, because the thought of having a husband or a son with such a obscenely closed mind like yours, makes me sick. I know vocabulary isn't a popular subject in Ohlei Torah so get a dictionary for this one, you bigot.


p.s Don't go on shluchis, understanding human behavior is CLEARLY not your area of expertise.
(9/10/2014 2:19:23 PM)
230
This is disgusting.
To the author of this article (if it actually is a bochur and not just a rabbi or rebezin trying to get at the girls from a different angle) this article along with the comments is demeaning, uneducated in what it is like for girls, so statistically false, and judgemental. work on your own hardships and taivos before preaching our girls. What ever happened to Shmiras einayim? should girls not leave the house when its too hot to dress all covered up, because u cant control your own thoughts? Maybe you shouldnt leave you house. Or just keep your head in the books man.
I know many girls- sisters, cousins who are very smart and respectable woman and they dont dress in unecessary over the top ways. They look put together and classy and theres nothing wrong with that. maybe write an article about dressing modestly VS trashily. Because theres a difference between trashy and not tznius.
Our generation is changing and theres nothing anyone ccn do to stop it. Just worry about ways to better yourself.
(9/10/2014 3:59:55 PM)
231
What a Researcher
I think your little group of friends hardly makes up a good enough study research to generalize what men really want. For instance if you want to do research about tznius, take a sample size of 200 people, do proper testing and then say what most bochurim prefer. Without proper testing, your example is just a supposed hypothesis.

Another thing is that friends tend to be friends because they share interests, like you for instance, you prefer tznius women. However, your group of friends is hardly a generalization for the rest of the guys.

Other then that, your opinion is just that, an opinion.
(9/10/2014 4:02:04 PM)
232
Older Single Girl
My tznius is less important to me now because I was tznius all my life and what did it get me? A good frum husband? No. I'm tired of putting in the effort. I'd rather just be comfortable.
(9/10/2014 6:09:46 PM)
233
amazing article
very well said!!!!
(9/10/2014 6:59:34 PM)
234
SORRY, DON'T BUY IT
If what you said is true, that bachurim want tznius girls, you wouldn't have to write this up, we would all dress that way. But young men today are 'tainted' just the same way the girls are. You want slim, pretty girls who know how to dress with style. There's so much competition. We want our husbands to look at us instead of the billboards.But that's not gonna happen anytime soon. Idealistic. Good try.
(9/10/2014 7:27:44 PM)
235
you try it
you try wearing stockings in humid summer weather, you try working in a day camp with a skirt. you try playing basketball with tights. try running around shopping all day covering your hair in the summer. try purchasing a $160 dress because the ones that you can afford don't cover your knees properly. try not being able to buy a six dollar skirt at forever 21 because it's too tight. try it. i've personally done all of these things for tznius. it's not easy, and i respect any teenage girl who even dares try. nice point you made, but you have to admit that for a girl growing up in crown heights alot of these things are just not doable, it takes alot of work and determination and someone on your side, cheering you on. it takes time and practice and falling and picking yourself back up. we can't expect everyone is ch to have perfect standards, that's not fair
(9/10/2014 7:38:58 PM)
236
to #1
u sound like znius women can,t run a house and a bochur knows nothing...
(9/10/2014 8:27:23 PM)
237
to # 17
unfortunately most untznius females are married sad but true...
(9/10/2014 8:37:38 PM)
238
I'm a High School senior
and I agree with what this writer is essentially saying. I admit I am far from 'tznius' and I'm not excusing myself either. I have a lot of work to do on the way I dress, so thank you for writing something we girls can understand and appreciate about guys, even though we don't dress for you. Sorry to burst your bubble:). I find that even when you do dress in a modest fashion people look a and still judge so there's no getting out of the cycle anyway. But thank you for sharing your thoughts. Good luck.
(9/10/2014 9:08:05 PM)
239
tznius is about convenience
144 put it nicely. It's about what they have in stores. If I can't find tznius clothes, or if they are astronomically expensive (which tznius clothing is) then yes, I will have to wear the shirt i got at target which might be cut out and a little too tight. I don't necessarily want to look that way, or have any intention of being perceived that way, but it's about availability. I'm sure if tznius clothing were to be sold as regular clothing is sold in regular retail shops(read:cheap/economical) we would all buy it. I'm perfectly fine with buying a skirt that covers my knees and doesn't make my butt stick out. Make this available to frum girls. We don't have enough money to buy normal skirts in higher end stores! (where clothing is more refined and modest) We earn most of our money babysitting and being 'mommy's helper' etc. We can't afford it!
(9/10/2014 9:23:33 PM)
240
to 176
YESSSSSS. I completely agree with you thank youuuu:):):):)
(9/10/2014 11:11:29 PM)
241
Whole person
I like #55 comment
We do need to have discussions, to look at the whole person
I value tznius for all the reasons mentioned but somehow all that's been said or done doesn't seem to have a productive effect..so we maybe need to just respect everyone for their essential value and worth, build from there, be honest and sincere
(9/10/2014 11:40:59 PM)
242
amd and the final verdict is;
We're all holy Jews trying to serve God Almighty the best way we can.
(9/11/2014 12:32:49 AM)
243
@ 235 and @237
Kosher food. Jewish schools. Shabbos. Teffilen. Jewish Books.
Yom tov. Weddings. Its hard being a forum Jew it costs. Do you eat McDonald's for convenience???
Signed a bochur who thinks your excuse is lame
(9/11/2014 1:37:39 AM)
244
@242
Not all are serving. Some are just doing their own thing and trying to fit the modernity of this world in to the spiritually of ours. That's where the problem is.
(9/11/2014 9:15:04 AM)
245
@232
Its sad to hear of another girl who has not yet found her bashert but your solution is not very good.
(9/11/2014 9:17:41 AM)
246
Confsued
Why do I keep seeing people saying "how dare you tell us what to do? We don't live our lives for you!" the writer NEVER said you have to do anything! He gave an opinion a and explained that SINCERE bouchorim want and appreciate tznius in girls! Anything other conclusion you came to is simply you defending yourself. Oh, but why are you? Focus on the actual article people, not on your feelings. Gosh!
(9/11/2014 9:24:55 AM)
247
A true bashert
If your bashert is your soulmate and completes the other half of you, what does it matter what she wears? It's about what's on the inside that counts.
(9/11/2014 9:48:49 AM)
248
extremes
1) very interesting the extremes here, the comments are, thank you! So true! Amazing! Or the other comments, disgusting! False! Shame on you!...

2) it's on op-ed! Why u getting offended and taking it personal!? U don't have to agree! Just relax:)from the comments people seem so passionate and worked up..gosh.

3) seems like the majority of bochrim agree with the author...

4)girls: it's true boys do not understand your tzinyus challenges at all, but it's also true that guys want tzniyus girls.im talking about your average bochur.
(9/11/2014 11:02:56 AM)
249
to#248
Focus on yourself. It's one of the best things you can do.
(9/11/2014 11:25:02 AM)
250
YESHIVA BOYS
you know what you're describing yourself as?

a guy who wants a girl who WANTS to dress IMMODESTLY - but FORCES herself NOT TO.

so she is tznius - but 'down to earth'
do you know what being that way feels like?
its torture.
its much easier to be a girl who doesnt even looks at herself or her clothes and dresses like she doesnt.
then be someone who is very present to the world and yet DOES NOT ENGAGE WITH IT.
so while youre in your incubated little yeshiva bubble... understand that lubavitch girls are NOT raised in the same system as you... and before you know it they are working at 19 untill some guy comes along and accepts them for who they are and they grow and synergize something together.
the greatest issue with this derech is how much the women are RELIED upon to HANDLE EVERYTHING.
from the schools, to the camps, to the preschools. to the hundreds of people at your chabad house.
You need to understand and appreciate what it means to be a lubavitch woman and the kochot they have.
stop judging how they dress and grow together.
GD knows youre not married to the nerdy chassidishe girl whos family loves and protects her feeds her and learns with her.. cuz youre too 'with it'
the girls who support themselves and who spent years spending hundreds of their own cash to buy pantyhose on kingston ave.. just might be a little unprotected.
enjoy your 770 life while it still lasts... cuz sooner or later youre gonna be dealing with a wife who wont put up with your opinions on what it means to be a woman in lubavitch.

(9/11/2014 12:43:21 PM)
251
notice
notice majority bochurim agreeing w the article and thanking the author and majority women wether married or not have nasty comments to say.
think about it, its sad.
wake up amd smell the coffee guys.
its a problem and needs too be fixed.
a sem girl.
(9/11/2014 12:46:01 PM)
252
@247
You know what? Your right! In fact, why does it even matter if she is frum or not? As long as she is your 'soul mate' then that's all that matter. Obviously you don't understand the concept of "bashert" or tznius. When you say "what matters is in the inside" you only demonstrate your lack of understanding even more. Although, if you belive that all what matters is what you feel, there is a reform shul somewhere on estrn Pkwy, I'm sure they would love to have "lubavitchers" join them.
(9/11/2014 1:18:00 PM)
253
@246
Couldn't have put it better
(9/11/2014 1:50:42 PM)
254
to# 249
why? that sounds selfish.I can focus on myself,and try to help others, whats wrong with that?
(9/11/2014 2:48:41 PM)
255
to number 1
where exactly in the article did he say that being tznius enables a woman to run a household?
he speaks specifically of the husband-wife dynamic.
(9/11/2014 2:51:56 PM)
256
its all about CH
It is all about Crown Heights. I think that t is reasonable to say that Crown Heights is getting really crazy. And I have read a lot of comments here on this topic and I realized that even the stores don't have tznius clothes! What has become of CH?

I am glad I don't live in CH, the last time I've been there, i was shocked. Girls singing in the streets, the skirts not even covering their knees even when they stand (and I am talking about the winter, not when it's hot and there's no choice).

Tznius has become a major problem in CH, I am not sure why the Rabbonim aren't doing anything to stop this. Nor I am sure bochrim should stare at girls who are not tznius. Some people said here that bochurim stare at girls to see if they are tznius or not, but believe it or not, they look at girls because they are NOT tznius!

The reason bochurim and teenage boys look and talk about girls is because girls dress un-tznius... (I am sorry girls, but this is a reality).

In conclusion, I hope that bochrim would better think and involve themsleves in the mammorim and sichos of the Rebbe, and not talk about girls, like I read in the article.
(9/11/2014 4:26:38 PM)
257
great article!
wow, very impressed
makes total sense.
why would any decent guy want a wife who looks like a ----
not so hard to understand...

women, relax- obviously he hit a raw nerve...work on it and youll be much happier ... fact is your dress reflects whats going on inside.
(9/11/2014 6:37:11 PM)
258
Don't judge a book by its cover
So, If I dress perfect you will give me a pass for being mean on the inside because I gave off the right impression just on the outer appearance. Good to know.

I know for a fact a women is not going to write an op-ed about men because they have so much class.
(9/11/2014 7:09:38 PM)
259
great
This is a well thought out article. Thank you for writing and sharing.
(9/11/2014 7:40:41 PM)
260
a typical chasidishe girl
these comment boxes are for comments not judgment and id like to add what is on the outside reflets whats on the inside. being tznius is in the torah if some one is g-d forbid un tznuis they are doing an avierah quite simply. not wearing stokings as a couple people have pointed out is not covering your legs which is out rite in bold letters not tznius.whats that sopposed to mean your to lazy.to lazy for what doing a mitzvah and making hashem the rebbe your mother your father your teacher your husband proud. thank you "typical bochur"thank you for pointing out what needed to be pointed out and thank you for making people think
(9/11/2014 8:02:52 PM)
261
BL:
Bottom line I hear from the article and largely from the comments: Dress 'tsnius' for shidduchim purposes, to please a community, to avoid hate mail, to appear perfect, to fit in, to do what we like. That is all called 'ulterior motives'.
(9/11/2014 9:11:49 PM)
262
Would you believe it?
Wow - 261 comments on this one subject!
(9/12/2014 6:49:57 AM)
263
Absolutely
Exactly what I've wanted to say all along
(9/12/2014 10:55:02 AM)
264
to#260
The point of tznius was to put focus on the person and their midos, not some meaningless thing like clothing. While it's true that we need to be careful with how we present ourselves (with our clothing), when the "guardians" of tznius end up obsessing about tznius like this, it ends up defeating the point of trying to take attention away from the clothing.
(9/13/2014 4:08:03 PM)
265
Dear bochurim
please keep your eyes to yourself!
you dont need to be worrying about OUR issues! please focus on yours - which are many.

- teenage girls
(9/13/2014 10:21:55 PM)
266
amazing article- btw tznius is a mitzvah not an attitude to impress
Just to mention 2 points 1rst) If you walk down 13th ave in Boro Park stores you will NEVER find a store selling short skirts or untznius clothing, can we say the same in Crown Heights womens clothing stores?... ehhh no. 2nd) Tznius clothing require a higher budget, there should be a FUND for low income girls who want to dress tznius so they can buy tznius clothing if they wish to because they can be more expensive than untznius ones; just some food for thought
(9/14/2014 2:29:46 AM)
267
turned off from reading rude commetns
Thank you for sharing your thoughts about tznius.
I think there is no reason for anyone to try to shame or put down this bochurs view of this. It clearly is something that he thinks about and is brave of him for sharing. Stop being rude and making commetns like " you are just a bochur nad know just about nothing." really?!.. why write those kind of things.. pls be mature. I know its not "just" bochrim commenting here. Please... its just not nice.
(9/14/2014 4:22:59 AM)
268
to 267
anyway this article is already on the 3rd page on COLlive and no one (besides for me and you) reads this article ;)

BTW thanks COL!
(9/14/2014 11:26:00 AM)
269
excuse me?!
don't try to figure out a girl's reason for not dressing tznius.
mind your own business.
(9/14/2014 1:38:07 PM)
270
Get a job
If I was a women in CH - which I'm not - the one thing I would want a bochur to have is a job! Too many get married and sit around and live off your wife and the government. Get a real job! If you aren't going on shilichus, go to college after you are married and get a real job!
(9/15/2014 9:37:58 AM)
271
Why was this even published?
This is the most immature and closed-minded "article", I have ever read. Tznius is more than just how one dresses, and is not only for women. While girls in CH might not dress so modestly, the bochurim seem to act even less so.

To the author. grow up, and get a job. Then, and only then, can you start worrying about marriage.
(9/15/2014 6:58:24 PM)
272
To #261
Why are you bringing such shallow reasons to dress tznius? 260 hits home more.
We don't need reasons to do the right thing.

Nowadays people are much more aware of the garbage in our food and don't eat certain foods with chemicals... We have to be just as aware of how we dress. It has negative side effects on us ...
We have to restore that pride in who we are. We are lucky to have a Torah that gives us such clear guidelines on how to dress. It's not even confusing. It's clear and beutiful
and I think things have deteriorated if girls are just following and not
(9/16/2014 1:42:32 AM)
273
What boys tell girls...
To the author,

Would you like for some of your female counterparts to lecture you on the importance of minding what you look at?

Seriously, consider it.
(9/16/2014 9:38:08 AM)
274
101 and 215.
101 haahahaha for sure the funniest comment ever!!!!!!!!

215 are you kidding me lol ... are you sure you are a guy ?

(9/16/2014 3:30:02 PM)
275
229
Wow intense and spot on keep it up :)
(9/16/2014 3:34:39 PM)
276
from a chasidisher back round not a lubavitcher
i love lubavither chasidus the tora the chasidus the varimkeit i could go on and on.....i would become more involved with chasidus mivtzaim ... but every time i would tell a fremder a lubavitcher vort for example my shver he would look at me and say you have shaychis with these people these shkutzim look how they dress this is chasidus derech habesh"t b'kitzur the first thing that bothers a outsider is the tznius
(9/17/2014 11:38:04 PM)
277
woman will bring mashiach
Tnius is more then a look it can affect a whole demeaner towards Judaism, self respect and the sanctity of exclusivity in marriage and more. It is one of the biggest tests for woman in our generations. Knowing that it will be in the Zechus of the woman that mashaich comes it is no wonder that our most essential mitzvah is being attached. The greatest tests stand in the way of the most precios treasures. we can do this. What is a tactic we can use to succeed in maintaining our holiness? ....
(9/18/2014 2:35:45 AM)
278
Amazing, thanks!
That was a beautiful article, thank you for being brave enough to write this important piece! Perhaps if this article is making any readers uncomfortable they should look inside themselves to find out why. Because this is truth. Ignore the haters and do what you know is right.
(12/6/2014 10:40:50 PM)
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