Aug 1, 2014
"No One Tells Me How to Dress"
Illustration photo

Op-Ed: "I am a woman and women should not be oppressed we are free to express ourselves through our way of dressing...I make my own choices."

by Aliza BasMenachem

I can get you to look my way. I can cause you to feel uncomfortable. I can compel you to feel you want to stare but you know it is rude to stare. It makes you feel awkward. I dress this way because I am a woman and women should not be oppressed we are free to express ourselves through our way of dressing and you are committing a faux pas if you object. I can impress you with my clothes. Once you are impressed by me, I have power over you. I am a power dresser. I make my own choices. No one tells me how to dress.

The previous paragraph is in first person for dramatic effect. It is not me talking. From here on, it is me talking and the first thing I want to do is thank men for not using the excuses above to dictate their wardrobe choices. I am grateful that men do not think the way some women do when it comes to dressing. I dont want to encounter shirtless men in briefs who claim a right to dress that way because the weather is steaming hot. They would have a point but I am glad they respect my sensitivities and they cover up.

When women dress immodestly they not only have power over men but also over women. In a broad generalization, I will say that men get interested and women feel threatened. In her TED Talk of October 2012 entitled, Looks aren't everything. Believe me, I'm a model, Cameron Russel walks on stage in a sophisticated dress that I will describe as suitable for a posh night club. She says she can feel the tension in the room. No doubt the facial expressions and breathing patterns of her audience are filled with tension. Not that the audience wants to respond that way. They are not in control. An average woman may not be able to generate such a response by dressing with appeal, but we can learn from the extreme beauty and power that Cameron possesses, and apply it proportionately to the rest of us.

Cameron then glides to a nearby stool where she has prepared pieces of clothing. She covers herself with a floor length wraparound skirt and a long-sleeved sweater. She takes off her sky-high heeled shoes and slips into flats. She says she can sense the tension has disappeared. There is a new, calmer, feeling in the room. The audience now trusts her and is ready to listen to what she has to say.

I am not claiming that she is less beautiful. But, it is a new kind of beauty. A new dignity. A beauty that others can relate to and feel comfortable with. It is not threatening. Its a friendly beauty. Through her modest dress, she is communicating the even with her beauty, she can be a regular person who is someone that communicates with regular people.

To the liberal-dressing women of Crown Heights. What is important to you? To be able to dress how you want? What are you willing to sacrifice to achieve that goal? What are you ready to give up so that you can dress in eye-catching fashion? Are you willing to make both men and women feel uncomfortable? To give up communicating as equals? To put strain and limitations on potentially beneficial relationships?

It is natural to judge people by how they dress. Especially when there is a general principle that women should be able to express themselves through their clothing. So if clothing is self-expression, then the onlooker is correct in thinking the clothes represent what the person is about. And yet, some women who express themselves in their choice of clothing, are not able to relate to those who are judgmental of them because of their expressive clothing.

For a Jewish girl to dress in a blatantly immodest way is an expression of unhappiness. Tearing down a sign about dressing modestly is an indication of anger. The immodest woman should be treated in a way to help her to find happiness, and to release her from her anger. Her clothing is akin to being the symptom, not the disease, and should be treated as such. Except for one factor. Provocative dressing has an effect on other people. It creates tensions that are beyond control as Cameron Russell explained. I think we have to respect others and if dressing immodestly is problematic, it is rude to cause other people discomfort.

This phenomena is not just in Crown Heights. I am surprised by women I know, outside the Jewish community, who are generally considerate of others, when they say that women should be able to dress how they want and men just have to handle it. Why do they think it is OK to distract men and cause them anxiety? Is the female self-expression is so important to them that they act in a way that is impervious to the inborn nature of male response to women? Or is it a circle? The women are dressing this way because they are unfulfilled and they are unfulfilled because men have to reduce their interest in women, just to be able to walk down the street. A woman who feels fulfilled as a woman does not need to express her femininity through her clothing. You can tear down one sign, but your clothing is also a sign, of your unfulfilled femininity. But immodest clothing will not fill that need. It will bring the opposite result. Which is why the signs are so offensive. They tell the truth: it is better for us all when we dress modestly.

My point of view is that in Crown Heights the community is trying to accomplish something. I think people should respect it. While in Crown Heights, one should abide by its mode of dress. Crown Heights does not have dress codes that are oppressive. The modesty standards are generally reasonable, and a reasonable person should be able to abide by them. Personally, I am not a Dugma Chaya for Tznius. I am a work in progress. But I consider being respectful as something that is not a work in progress. It is a given.

I just got back from spending two weeks in Eretz Yisroel. I spent a lot of time in Yitzhar and I spent some time in Mea Shaarim, as well as a list of other places. But my point here is, that as different as Yitzhar and Mea Shaarim are the women I met in both places are modest and happy!

So what is important? How you dress? Or relationships? A relationship with G-d. With the Rebbe. With family and friends. With a spouse. If you knew that how you dress effects those relationships, would you still give mode of dress a top priority? Or, like Cameron Russell, would you cover up so that you could relate to your audience with grace, respect and a calm ambiance for communication.

Modesty is associated with the safety of our nation and especially our soldiers. For all those who trust that a Mezuzah does make a difference, then please accept that modesty also makes a difference. (There are sources, but I am not going to explore the sources in this article.) If only until the end of the current hostilities please cover up for the sake of our soldiers they are combatting Hamas please combat your personal feelings and give the soldiers extra protection that a Jewish woman has the power to give.

The Hebrew words for the Iron Dome are Kipat Barzel. In Hebrew, the letters that spell Barzel are BRZL and are known to stand for the iron strength of Jewish women who descend from BRZL - Bilhah, Rochel, Zilpah and Leah. The Kipat Barzel is one of the power tools through which Hashem is protecting Jews in Eretz Yisroel. And Jewish women are an intrinsic part of it. Its time to take our capacity for Power Dressing and change it from making a powerful impression to making a powerful tool of protection. Power Dressing with a purpose. Power Dressing with the agenda of being dressed and ready to greet Moshiach Now.



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Opinions and Comments
1
Thank you...
I'm interested to see how people respond to this... The tsnius issue in Crown Heights is really out of hand and nobody knows what to do about it. Maybe bring more tsnius clothing into the stores?
(8/1/2014 10:00:08 AM)
2
Personally, I agree with you...
But what's going on in crown Heights right now in terms of tznius is an absolute disaster. And unfortunately most women who are dressing in the most inappropriate ways will agree with your first paragraph - "dont tell me how to be or what to do". Whats interesting is many of them think they are also good parents. But how do they think their kids will be when they grow up? Will they care one iota about tznius, or any other mitzvos ? It's tragic.
(8/1/2014 10:04:53 AM)
3
well said
wonderfully written and well said.
please heed this very special Mitzvah
have mercy on the men and ladies in this community and the world.. you will make our Rebbe proud you will make Hashem proud ...and at the rend you will be proud of yourself
(8/1/2014 10:08:12 AM)
4
wow
wow very well written and point taken! positive informative & given a fresh perspective on tznuis--thank u!
(8/1/2014 10:08:16 AM)
5
amazing
honestly i'm so sick and tired and repulsed by these women who dress not tznius at all and those who are stretching the borderline of tznius and those that sell and claim to have "tznius clothing"!!! The ones who are suffering the most are the ones who are untznius... you think they are happy? the pressure to always concirf, ne in style and have money to constantly update upgrade be original and the best. ... at what price is this coming to??? wake up and smell the cofee! it si you , your family, your kids and yes all of us as a whole....
(8/1/2014 10:09:28 AM)
6
Thank you from My little son
Well written - when I take my young son to the park I get full if this tension and feel I have to sheild his eyes . Not from the non Jews around but from our own . I feel all the woman who sacrificed a lot to get us here and left it in our hands - now what?
(8/1/2014 10:09:41 AM)
7
very well written
great article, we need more of this. gotta say i was a little worried when I saw the headline, but was pleasantly surprised when I read the article. kol hakavod.
(8/1/2014 10:10:26 AM)
8
Wow!
You ARE a true Dugma Chaya!
Chazak Veamatz!
YOU are powerful!
(8/1/2014 10:15:24 AM)
9
Just a regular Joe...
From a man's perspective, I live in Crown Heights, and I totally agree with this article. When I am in the grocery store and a woman is dressed inappropriately and not b'tznius it makes me very uncomfortable. We should have better standards. Thank you for listening.
(8/1/2014 10:16:53 AM)
10
It's the symptoms there is definitely something underlying
These girls are crying out for true love craving acceptance unconditional from their parents that they're not getting. I agree
it's a symtom of underlying anger they are not happy with themselves. They are not proud of themselves something underlying perhaps depression abandonment abuse
(8/1/2014 10:19:49 AM)
11
agreed! to number 10
What is it these women are lacking at home that they need to attract attentino from strangers!?
(8/1/2014 10:31:46 AM)
12
tznius
I am a middle aged bobbi- dressing modestly is not a challenge for me.
But,excusee ,and please don't take offense.THIS article is the absolute lack of tznius.we,as from,chassidishe people speak in an aidelle loshon.this makes me embarrassed and I squirmed and actually found it hard to read.
I never heard such talk,and I come from a long line of emesse chassidim.I dress like a tzniusdike Bobbi and mechaneches.but honestly,this is offensive and will definitely not help women who are challenged with this mitzvah.it is an assault on the ears and minds of ehrliche women and a turn off to a struggling young woman.
It is a huge nisayon for soany and only education and constant understanding ,warmth and love will change the situation.not placards on the streets,(a satmar mode d'operande)nor such unrefined speech and machshovo as this article.
These methods never worked and never will.
In these nine days let's show love and caring and focus on each ones maalos.
(8/1/2014 10:33:51 AM)
13
Observer
One problem facing girls and women today is that we often fail to choose from available fashions that which actually looks good on the individual rather than the hanger. This applies to style, color and fit. It is sad that the three way mirror has disappeared from stores. Clothes of all price ranges and in styles from very conservative to wildly funky can be either tznius or not. All depends on how they are worn. So many have failed to realize that shopping is an individual art not an adventure. When a person is in the "latest" from top of her head to her toes she often looks foolish. What is fashionable one day is out the next but if a woman develops an awareness of what is right both for her figure, coloring and the occasion and is comfortable she will be confident and weather scrubbing bathrooms or being the star of a simcha. Tznius is realizing that being a bas melech comes from within and from how we present ourselves to the world. This includes posture, tone of voice, movement, what we say and write, our interactions with others and all the traits that make a person a polite member of society, a mench, a lady, a true bas Yisroel, a chasidishe person and a
(8/1/2014 10:48:12 AM)
14
response to # 12
I read your comment carefully and fully understand where you are coming from! I too am a middle aged "bubby" and I too am in chinuch. What I don't think you realize is that todays young people cannot relate to what you are trying to convey. I did not find the article distasteful and actually found it very much on target for the intelligent and thinking person. When it says "Chnoch L"anar al pi Darko" it really means that we need to explain things in a manner that they will comprehend. I'm sure that there will be many further comments and I am betting that no one else will feel offended by the forthrightness of the article. The perspective of the author gives the person much to think about and internalize. let's hope that many will read it and do some series soul searching about what is really pushing them to dress immodestly. I only hope that this article amongst the many will make a difference in the way our women dress.
(8/1/2014 10:56:17 AM)
15
I agree with 14
Sometimes intelligent explanation breaking down the mechanics is food for thought. I also am a bubby and wasnt comfortable with it, but felt that explaining the mechanics was important. I also agree with 10...many girls that dress this way are sad and hurting....could be since they were not dealt with love in high school, they are letting it out...they need love and acceptance....someone needs to listen to them...they are hurting inside..
(8/1/2014 11:07:33 AM)
16
I don't understand the article
Would you please post some pictures so I can better understand what you are saying?!?
(8/1/2014 11:16:18 AM)
17
sharing the article
Dear Col, is it possible to make this article "sharable" on social media without the comments (getting permission to take out Crown Heights from it would be great).
as usual, it has, and will attract much machlokes.
Its a well written, good perspective, article, that would be nice to get out, but the entire Face book World, which personally includes many not yet frum people, doesn't have to read the comments. IMHO
(8/1/2014 11:18:27 AM)
18
To 12
Lady wake up and smell the coffee lubavitch today is not what it is
(8/1/2014 11:20:06 AM)
19
i fear for the young girls with uniforms
My daughter is 13 feels very limited in her boxy uniform and I fear that this will turn her off. She has already expressed a need to change schools,(she does not have any social or learning issues) as she saw the added restrictions on her new uniform in school. I actually understand her, I did not have a limited uniform in my day, but if I did, it would have caused a negative affect. Girls have the need to express themselves. It could be with shoes, sweaters, hair. Schools, should not take it away from them!!! suppressing it will cause it to come out in another way.
(8/1/2014 11:24:46 AM)
20
Disagree with this statement
"A woman who feels fulfilled as a woman does not need to express her femininity through her clothing."

True femininity is with refined clothing and one should express their femininity through clothing too. The article is pretty good but because it is written in an unrefined language, this point was missed.
(8/1/2014 11:35:06 AM)
21
Just sayin
I think the first paragraph might be a paraphrase of a recent network television interview that was posted on VOSIZNEIAS. A reporter interviewed a few women on the street. The Jewish woman interviewed pretty much said what the author reported. The cameras panned out to show how this woman was dressed. I have been haunted by this video clip since viewing it, and I am happy that someone publicly responded. Aside from a good bit of her hair showing, she was "covered." However her clothing was seductive. I think the author of this post pins the problem: why do women feel that they must dress provocatively? Even secular science and society understands the biology of being "male." As frum women, we must take our role as "help-mate," and committment to spiritual growth, seriously. Can't a woman dress stylishly and beautiful in a non-provocative manner? This is a serious question on my part.
(8/1/2014 11:49:00 AM)
22
just wondering
Where does self respect begin ? Whose teaches it ? A mother, a teacher, a friend, the media?
(8/1/2014 11:52:55 AM)
23
wonderful thank you
thanks for writing this. The problem is not with the CH stores, they most likely aren't shopping here anyways. BTW I don't either, I shop in discount stores in NYC, but I'm always tznius, there are ways to make it tznius
(8/1/2014 11:59:08 AM)
24
Father of a 14 year old bas yechida
I found this article honest and straightforward and full of integrity. I have a daughter whose school in CH is careful to instill tznius in the girls and demand it of the parents. Unfortunately I have a very hard headed wife who continuously undermines my opinions in matters concerning dress and the use of mobile phones. She allows and buys my daughter floor length dresses which Rabbi Heller has prohibited because they were the length of choice of prostitutes even LONG AGO ! She is also permitted to wear leggings and ankle socks which partially expose erva. The amazing thing is that my wife, herself, dresses 100% tznius! She insisted my daughter be allowed to have a phone to be able to contact each other at any time which stems from over protectiveness. She allowed her recently to 'upgrade' to a smart phone completely against my clearly voiced protests and now she has spent almost her entire free time since Pesach altogether addicted to having that thing in her face with her two thumbs tic-tacking away looking like some kind of rodent eating it's food. I have emphatically expressed my opinion against all these things. I can clearly tell you when the wife refuses to admit to having wrong opinions about certain matters and insists on feeling she has a right to voice those opinions instead of admitting they are wrong, then that is NOT tznius which means hidden. Just like the body must not be exposed in public, nor should one's ego be waved like a flag. They both are nothing but gaava.
(8/1/2014 12:01:32 PM)
25
with the old breed
I am a chabad chosid who does not live in Crown Heights. I want to thank and Bless all of you for taking on this problem. Dressing like a Jew is one of the things that helped to jewish people become a Nation and took them out of gulus.
(8/1/2014 12:07:42 PM)
26
to # 11
Because they have NO ONE there for them! since they don't have pnimiyus they figure at least "we can express chitzoniyus and at least against pple wants we'll get att". it's a shame that NO ONE is there for them when they have any problem in life, they take the "normal" way to get att.- from the outside. if only they'll know how much Hashem the Rebbe IS HERE AND WANTS THEM! by building their hiskashrus and working on their pnimiyus there will be no need for this issue. but even that no one is there to guide them. if they be stubborn and ask Hashem for help and keep hiskashrus with the Rebbe Hashem WILL ANSWER THEM! but it's upto them how much work they want to put into it!
(8/1/2014 12:11:23 PM)
27

What does judging others based off your preconceptions on their appearances tell you?
(8/1/2014 12:12:10 PM)
28
CRUELTY

Well, the title may sound extreme. But, thats what untznius really is PROFESSIONAL SADISM. Now, Im not a woman, so maybe yes or no. But, for a man, this is torture of the mind!
To say dont look I mean thats absurd. You just cant help seeing whats right in front of you and peripherally, unless, CHV, you are visually handicapped or are wearing welders goggles. True, when you do see it, look away. The problem is that once you get that glimpse, uh-oh!..
I mean, if we make an exception by allowing even ONE woman to go around untziusdik, then, in all fairness, everyone should be allowed. Additionally, once you compromise a little, then - yes, this will happen, it's happening already. We will be walking around like, you know - what would happen to a young man's (even a woman) Yiddishkeit if he would stick around too long on the beach?
(8/1/2014 12:15:05 PM)
29
fed up mom
I am so sick of seeing women half dressed in ch, its like I dont know where to put my eyes. I am so sick of having to worry about the influences my young 10 yr old daughter is getting from HER OWN NEIGHBORS AND FRIENDS MOTHERS. This is so rediculous and out of control.
(8/1/2014 12:16:12 PM)
30
A picture says a thousand words
Update your article with some nice shots so we can better understand where your coming from
(8/1/2014 12:20:54 PM)
31
Too true
Beautiful article.
Unfortunately, it's very true. One of the reasons we moved our family out of CH is because we don't want our children growing up wondering why they can't dress the way so-and-so in their class dresses if she's Lubavitch, too!
(8/1/2014 12:25:05 PM)
32
No one will be able to "make" girls and women change
The way to combat the lack of modesty if you woould like to call it that, is not by writing op-ed articles or protesting on Kingston Ave.
it all starts with education and showing kids the right way to dress out of love
No one will be successful by forcing it down the throats of the women
in addition, modesty standards also can be different based on different people's views therefore there will never be any agreement at the end of the day
Teach your children well and hope they will end up listening to you but using "Satmar tactics" will never work only will achive the opposite
(8/1/2014 12:25:28 PM)
33
Unreasonable
It is unreasonable to post an article with so many words and no pictures please fix this ASAP!!!
(8/1/2014 12:26:09 PM)
34
Shut up.
Do you see anyone who has a nisyaon here with tznius posting??
NO. Because the real reason why ladies are sick and tired of being preached to is because the preachers are the NOT the ladies to look up to.
I am a tznius lady. I DO NOT live in Crown Heights for a variety of reasons, but when in shiddichim my husband said to me, "I can explain out of Crown Heights why ladies arent tznius if we have a daughter, not if we live in". That was 11 yrs ago!
I have an idea. WHERE ARE THE RABBIS TO PREACH TO THE BOCHERIM a SIZE 2 girl ISNT what we look for in Shidduchim??? WHERE ARE THE RABBIS to preach HYGEINE TO THE BOCHERIM? WHERE ARE THE RABBIS SAYING "Listen, its important to be attracted to your wife, but to have wife who looks like a supermodel isnt what the end all and be all of a shidduch" BECAUSE THATS ANOTHER PROBLEM. If you arent a)skinny b) tottering around in HIGH HEELS and c) wearing flashy clothes a boy isnt going to give you the time of day in shidduchim-DONT PRENTEND ITS NOT HAPPENING, TZNIUS QUEENS. It is! Doesnt matter HOW CHASIDISHE your son is! Also, WHERE ARE THE REBBETZINS who have style and flair to tell the ladies : GET YOUR SHEITAL WASHED, wear PROPER FITTING CLOTHES, NOT BAGGY SHMATTES, BATHE YOURSELF PROPERLY, so that young ladies can see "ahh..there goes so and so. She looks amazing!" Not there goes so and so, she looks like a trash bag in the name of tznius!
WHY in CH is there not a chesed lady who can watch and set sheitals for a minium cost to encourage ladies to LOOK nice?? Tznius means dressed like a QUEEN, NOT like you've lost your iron!
And as for those signs up in CH, YOU DO NOT OWN THE STREETS. PAY TAXES. GET CITZENSHIP. GO TO WORK. DONT LIVE OFF WELFARE. THEN you can say to the city how you want your streets to look. Because if you were NOT SO BORED AT HOME, you wouldn't be worried about what others are wearing and YOU WOULD LOOK IN YOUR HOME TO FIND SHLICHUS! Because thats where shlichus starts! IN YOUR HOME!
(8/1/2014 12:32:09 PM)
35
Thank you for your article!!!
I'm a married man and I fear and avoid Kingston ave. why should I have to see woman dressed so provaticavly?! Bochurim struggle and get into immense depressions due to this terrible lack of tznius. IT HAS TO STOP!!!
(8/1/2014 12:38:52 PM)
36
THM, Kashrus and Shabbos too
"I am a woman and women should not be oppressed we are free to express ourselves through our way of dressing...I make my own choices."
The very same argument could be put forth for THM:
"I am a woman and women should not be oppressed we are free to express ourselves through our timing of intimate relations...I make my own choices."
And Kashrus:
"I am a woman and women should not be oppressed we are free to express ourselves through our choice of what we eat...I make my own choices."
And Shabbos:
"I am a woman and women should not be oppressed we are free to express ourselves through our choice of what activities to engage in and when to engage in them...I make my own choices."
You get the picture. Same argument can be used to throw away all of Yiddishkeit. After all, "the poskim and rabbonim are all men: who are they to make choices for women"?
(8/1/2014 12:42:44 PM)
37
Problems in Satmar too
With the "Yuppies' moving into chassidishe neighborhoods (Williamsbugh, Crown Heights, Boro Park), things are getting tough. A few months ago, I saw a sign in a Williamsburgh shul, basically urging the chevrei, who see the Yuppie dress style, to do the best they can to hang on to the standards of Yiddishkeit they were brought up with."It's a tough nisayon out there."
(8/1/2014 12:52:51 PM)
38
great article
i was just wondering...i usually try my best to be tznius but there is once in a while that im not 100 % so tznius. the thing is, when i do dress not so appropriately, it has nothing to do with my family not giving me enough love, BH i have a wonderful loving family. it also doesnt have to do with trying to attrcat others. its just that i find clothing that i really like and its too hard to not buy and wear it, like a skirt thats a bit too short....i dont understand why everyone thinks its because of not enough love and acceptance. i just sometimes think i willl loook better a certain way so i wear it- even though i shouldnt. i dont understand all these comments- the reasons dont really have anything to do with it.
(8/1/2014 12:55:42 PM)
39
this is a really nice article.
powerful, well- written, to the point, and 100 % true. thank you for writing this. i dont think the language is unrefined at all. beautiful job.thank you.
(8/1/2014 1:08:09 PM)
40
Back to the basics
unless you start teaching the basics, it wont matter how many times you say the halacha or right thing, it just wont catch in to the minds of the new generation.
they need to start to learn, respect, honor , dignity and above all self reason. also just to blame them for not getting love at the home,is incorrect. they get love and caring at the home. its part dor shivee and also golus.
we all need to go back to basics , leave the non stop technology draining your mind, get out exercise, throw a ball ,go for a jog,hike , good old school stuff. nowadays if they cant get to their cell, ipad, facebook they are like a junkie that hasnt had his fix. have good old fun
(8/1/2014 1:12:02 PM)
41
to#38
I never understood that either. If that was really the case then all the non-Jews in the world are really unhappy and don't have love in their life if we are going off their appearances.

I don't think that is the case. The case is people don't understand something so they start making baseless assumptions.
(8/1/2014 1:13:33 PM)
42
wow! amazing article! very well written!
Such a great point you made, and very well. I don't think the writing is immodest at all! Very refined and cleearly written and makes a great point. Thanks for this, ill be sharing it.
(8/1/2014 1:15:02 PM)
43
to 16
yes the article is slightly unclear
(8/1/2014 1:15:39 PM)
44
Citizen Berel
Number 34 is correct.

The problem is the men. Were men and bochurim to refuse to have anything to do with these gazlonim (and they are gazlonim because they rob my entire field of vision because I have to walk down the street with my eyes down) this would stop. It should absolutely be the first question asked of a shadchan, and a girl who does not adhere to halachic standards of dress should be treated as a mechalel shabbos beparhesia (as far as shiduchim) until she does teshuva.

All that said, when the male attitude towards immodesty changes the problem will go away.

Women have there nisyonois and style is one of them, but this isn't about style -- this is depravity and is completely dependent on male attitudes.
(8/1/2014 1:18:02 PM)
45
lack of leadership and lots of strife
End the strife you will see the improvement in tznios
(8/1/2014 1:18:55 PM)
46
If you don't think the Ribono shel Olam is watching and..
weighing what is going on with the decline in the FRUM velt you are highly mistaken. From the looks of the decline of the western civilizations and the rise of a violent Islamic rule coming r'l, the hashgacha should not be lost on us. If we would rather conform to the prust velt of the B'nei Esav and all their pritzus and glamour and fashion, just look down the road (ie into the future) and you WILL be dressed tznius. You can have it either in a Geuladike way with Moshiach or you can all bring down a gezeira on our heads and your fashion WILL be forced on you, it won't be Dior or Donna Karan it will be CHADOR and BURQA the head to toes black shmattah. Keep screaming DIOR NOW! instead of Moshiach Now ! and that is what you have to look forward to. Don't be such kleiner kepalach and choose life instead.
(8/1/2014 1:25:35 PM)
47
A MAN WRITES
BH
BSD

While certainly tznuis is an important issue, to make blanket disparaging comments of our sweet queens of Israel ruins what this article is trying to acheive
(8/1/2014 1:29:09 PM)
48
Who are your LEADERS
We are forgetting a basic principle here. Who do we listen to, the Torah or Madison Avenue advertisers, NY Times, etc.?
The Torah obligates us to listen to our leaders (i.e. Rebbeim). Ask yourself this question:Would the Rebbe approve of this?

As far as "role models," come on, you're not that stupid, you're looking for a convenient excuse to commit wrongdoing! If you see your mashpia, friend, even a parent doing something you know is wrong, does that give you license to do the same?
If a doctor (i have seen this) smokes, does then mean that smoking is good for you, so go ahead and enjoy those cigarettes?
(8/1/2014 1:35:18 PM)
49
To # 19
'' Boxy uniform?'' uniforms for most schools are realistic and not oppressive at all, with a blouse and pleated plaid skirt. They even allow the girls to wear whichever color hair accessories, shoes and tights they want, which can't be said for most schools. What do you expect of them? The uniform is very reasonable in my opinion.
(8/1/2014 1:45:11 PM)
50
Superb Article
Beautifully and truthfully written! Yasher Koach!! You have spoken words filled with fact and truth. Tznius brings ONLY blessing to EVERYONE!! Bottom line it is simply Ahavas Yisroel. Do you want YOUR husband or sons to view OTHER women!! To feel and think things they should not have to think or feel between our very own?? We cannot control what exists in the secular world, but we can be aware and control ourselves.
Thank you for such a wonderful article. May it touch all our hearts and may we all continue to be works in progress for the better!
(8/1/2014 1:48:32 PM)
51
Too much of anything no good
My father, A"H, was a big fan of history."Too much tyranny brings liberty, too much liberty brings tyranny."
With the breakdown of basic moral principles worlwide, especially when governmments(like the USA!) shove it down our throats, then, indeed, CH"V, we are headed toward tyranny! Why do you think there is both, a radical Islamic uprising in the Arab world and a neo-nazi revival (ironically, not in Germany yet) in some European countries?
On one of the Mike Savage shows, his sub told a story about his visiting an Imam at a Moslem school in France. The Imam said,"What does a Moslem see in Western society: decadence - prostitution, drugs, same gender relationships, public drunkeness/immorality, etc. You think we are going to assimilate with you, no way?!" So, the only way to prevent this nation from sliding into any kind of tyranny is to go back to the Judeo-Christian ethic that this country was founded on.
(8/1/2014 2:07:07 PM)
52
to #24
It seems like you need some proffessional help- your daughter's problem has nothing to do with herself, but rather your wife. It seems as if she feels there is a need to prove the world how 'up to date' she is, or perhaps it is underwater tension. As a psychologist myself, I have seen quite a few women who take everything that they feel they haven't recieved in there childhood, and gave it to their daughters. Perhaps your wife feels she wasn't allowed to keep up with her friends as a child because she wasn't given the latest gadgets or stylish clothing, and wants to protect her child from what she has gone through, so she gives her daughter what she wants, even if it is putting her marriage on the line.
Bottom line: seek help now. Before things begin to spiral out of control. Ch'v
(8/1/2014 2:09:25 PM)
53
Sad person
It's crazy the people in crownheights don't
Respect it any more and feel like they can dress
Like the non Jewish people . And now in the summer
Time when I walk with my kids they Don't know If that
Person is jewish or not because of the way she/he dresses
And it just shows they don't care that Hashem said I dress like a Jew
What if the rebbe was in crownheights now will u dress the same way u are doing now?
Now us the time when israel is having a major war and the rebbe said by protecting the Israelis is by being tzniut. So If you say bug off or any thing else just know it shows u don't care about the laws of Hashem. And your helping and side point it either looks immodest or trashy
(8/1/2014 2:19:32 PM)
54
to #34
re: "preach hygeine to the bochurim."

lol. yes, please.
(8/1/2014 2:28:41 PM)
55
pleasant surprise erev shabbos
I am one of the women who are disgusted with the prostkeit I see in our streets. It bothers me no end.
But, today I was in for a very pleasant surprise. I was driving down Brooklyn Avenue and Lefferts when it seems like moms were picking up their children from eithr day care center or Bais Rivkah day camp. I was so pleased to see these moms looking great and dressed tznius! These are young attractive women with great figures dresses properly! So, I was thinking to myself, maybe there's more of this then of the immodest dressing women I see..but they just don't make that much of an impression. These well dressed tznius women look like what we expect everyone to look like and we therefore don't notice them. Perhaps we should be elaborating on the positive and let the slutty look be ignored?
(8/1/2014 2:35:08 PM)
56
My reason for sometimes not being as tznius as I should...
I'm too tired to be! I find life in ch so unbelievable hard , no support , no time for a social life, schools making us ill, huge expenses , health issues and all the rest of it ... I simply don't have the energy to get dressed! So I run out with long skirts and a tichel whereas on days when I'm not so drained I put on a shaital makeup and wear dress clothes.so it's nothing to do with no love as I have a wonderful husband and kids... In just too tired mentally and physically.

That's MY reason.
(8/1/2014 3:08:22 PM)
57
Assur for Men To Walk on Kingston Ave.
A number of years ago, I was standing on line at House of Glatt, picking up an order, when I couldn't help but notice that the married woman in front of me was dressed no better than a shiksa in Times Square on a hot summer afternoon. Ever since then, I have been telling anyone willing to listen that al-pi Shulchan Aruch it is 100% assur for all married men and bochrim to walk down Kingston Ave. Unfortunately, most people who hear me out make a nod with their head, smile, and say, nu, what can you do. Sadly, the pritzus has only gotten worse. Therefore, in order that no one claims they weren't told, let it be known, it is 100% Assur-prohibited- for any married man or unmarried bocher to walk down Kingston Ave.
(8/1/2014 3:15:14 PM)
58
thank you for posting!
Thank you.
what is so sad is that these people that think they can walk around undressed are so selfish all they care about is themself!
I am a regular crown heights girl chassidish and normal and that is who I married and I am embarrassed for my husband to walk behind you. Are you trying to put your ideas and disgusting images in our husbands eyes so they will want to look for more. You are causing divorce and you care only about yourself and when I look at those type of women dont post on facebook that you will hit the next person who tells you off about the way you look you should be embarrassed of yourself cause you have no respect for yourself and for others and for other peoples marriages that are trying so hard to build a good foundation in their house that is based on more important things then the womens body!
(8/1/2014 3:16:57 PM)
59
Tichels
My sister in laws show more hair, than what's covered by the tichel. Granted, it's within the confines of a house, but all us family members and these women's husbands are forced to look at their erva. And we all stand by and are not allowed to say anything.... I think they simply don't know what they r doing wrong....
(8/1/2014 3:17:13 PM)
60
to 57
my older son refuses to walk or drive on kingston for a couple years now. if he is in the car with us he asks us to use either albany or brooklyn,. he himself will only walk on those streets as well. how is this normal that a young bochur is restricted from walking around in his own neighborhood? shameful!
(8/1/2014 3:19:44 PM)
61
Chinuch from school
Disrespect for tznius also shows disrespect for Hashem. If these women show such disrespect for Hashem, who knows how many more mitzvos their kids will toss away as adults?
If the parents don't teach their kids, I think it's up to the schools to give the best chinuch they can.
(8/1/2014 3:20:15 PM)
62
unmarried older bt opinion
i think we should not put pressure on women in this. not in a public forum, anyway. it is too case by case. it does seem obvious that the other chassidic groups are at higher level in this area, but they also have other stabilizing elements to their culture (no brain-drain of sending out shluchim, and no influx of BTs into their community). women (and all people) need to feel good about themselves, and this tznius-talk comes off as very condescending to me, telling people they do not know how to dress. women's dressing is more artistic inherently, and women are simply inherently attractive, with figures, etc. women should be encouraged to be classy, in all ways, this should be done thru positive reinforcement. some women are naturally more beautiful than others in form, etc. - it is not their fault. and that men value a beautiful woman - i do not think there is anything that can be done to change that either.
(8/1/2014 3:20:29 PM)
63
KINGSTON AVE IS A RUNWAY. LEGIT.
Okay, face it people, Kingston Avenue is a runway. Before u go out of ur house u have to a) make sure u look good b) not care abt tznius c) walk ridiculously to attract ppl. This i what is seriously going on out there. And the saddest part is: no one can make any move to stop it. There has to be some method of stopping it.
(8/1/2014 3:24:13 PM)
64
to#53
Jewish women, be happy, but always bear in mind: Your appearance is responsible for others thousands of miles away. Look, some women are more comfortable covered up, and some are not.
(8/1/2014 3:28:01 PM)
65
U go #34
Well said
(8/1/2014 3:47:56 PM)
66
Thank you- to those who do dress tznius
I want to take this opportunity to thanks those who DO dress tznius! And for all those (women) who complain- next time u walk down the street, see how many girls and women u see dressing tznius. Focus on that! There are "2 crown heights" the question is which one do u want to live in?
(8/1/2014 3:51:44 PM)
67
Assur for Men To Walk on Kingston Ave.---To 59
You are surely correct, it is not normal that your son cannot walk around in his own neighborhood. However, the real shame is what's causing your son to avoid Kingston Ave. Mainly, how can a community built on Torah, Shulchan Aruch, and Chasidus allow itself to be overrun by such pritzus! Any frum community worth its salt, would have years ago put an end to this madness. Unfortunately, due to a number of factors, primarily the numerous machlokesin at the top, Crown Heights has been utterly bereft of any strong Halachic posek with the power to enforce basic Halachic standards of tzinius. Without a strong posek setting the standards, Kingston Ave. has become totally overrun by pritzus. Therefore, it is incumbent upon every married man and bocher to heed the words of Pirkei Avos-Harchaik Meshachain Ra, you are not to step foot on Kingston Ave!
(8/1/2014 3:54:35 PM)
68
who?
Is Cameron Russell? No joke,and how would you know what she did? Might make those feel like its ok to know these things.
(8/1/2014 4:02:14 PM)
69
wow.
Very well written. Great point!
(8/1/2014 4:06:21 PM)
70
crown heights??
Crown heights this, crown heights that. There are untznius women and girls in every jewish community. And , I dont think its right for any men or bachurim to preach about tznius in their comments. You are a man, and you dont understand the challenge of dressing tzniusly. What would you know about it? So please dont tell us what we're doing wrong and how to fix it, thanks :)
(8/1/2014 4:11:55 PM)
71
Agree with #32
It really bothers me how people think that by posting these long articles and everyone agreeing in the comments, that suddenly, the whole crown heights will be dressing the way you want. I'm sorry but that's not going to happen. It's a really big struggle for many women and girls who want to fit in and look stylish. And I know you will say that you could look good and be tznius at the same time but at the end of the day, not really. Really, the only way people will change is firstly, by having role models that dress tzniusly and stylish and secondly, it's going to have to come from the person themself, no one can change another person. It gets a little much when we're constantly being bombarded with articles and posters like this, it's really not going to help.
(8/1/2014 4:15:38 PM)
72
fed up
Why does it always have to be the women that are all covered up and everyone could say whatever they want and knock them down?? Seriously it gets to a point where I don't think people are even open to accepting things like this anymore. We just "tune out" to these articles.
(8/1/2014 4:20:01 PM)
73
Assur for Men To Walk on Kingston Ave.---To 70
While I am a man, I wrote my comments primarily for married men and unmarried bochrim. I am not trying to preach about tzinius. I am trying to convey to all men the Shulchan Aruch's stance in terms of whether, with the current state of pritzus on Kingston Ave., it is permissible for them to be there. In my humble opinion, and I have smicha, it is clear that it is 100% assur for any married man and unmarried bocher to even step foot on Kingston Ave., let alone to walk the length of the whole Kingston Ave.
(8/1/2014 4:32:04 PM)
74
Two Cents
This topic I would say is annoying and is always one sided. Just called it a woman's problem. I can't believe someone said this is causing folks divorces seriously?

My conclusion of this one gender topic is men are very weak and fragile.
(8/1/2014 4:33:42 PM)
75
disgusted Bubbe
I am totally disgusted by the appearance of most of the female women and now sad to say girls( because their Mother's are no example) in our neighborhood. What is very sad is my sweet aidel grandaughter comes home from Bas Rivkah day camp telling me how un tznius her counselors are dressing .
(8/1/2014 4:40:03 PM)
76
There is a way to solve the tzius crises
Remove all the uniforms from girl schools, and replace them by tznius casual wear. Girls will then learn to dress tznius in normal clothing, something that is completely neglected in the schools today. Besides, once they own a tznius wardrobe , it will be an extra expense to buy a non tznius one as well (as it is the opposite is true).
Of course, the above is unrealistic, as the schools value control and conformity more than tznius and halacha.Maybe when they get their priorities straight, we will see some change.
(8/1/2014 4:59:41 PM)
77
a point no one has yet posted
Frequently one hears women or girls say "It's the men's problem, they shouldn't be looking." It's true that observant Jewish men are not supposed to be looking. But did you ever consider that observant Jewish men are a very small percentage of the population? If you go out dressed immodestly, you are providing food for the fantasies of EVERY man who sees you... the garbage collector, the mail carrier, the bus driver... think about them thinking about your body and then think whether it's really worth it to dress not like a Bas Yisroel.
(8/1/2014 5:21:58 PM)
78
THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT!
To two cents:

You hit it on the mark. When it comes to internal flames, men are weak, yes indeed! Much easier for a fireman to put out a house on fire than his own inner passions. That's the we were created, since Adam and Chava.
Now, you understand why our sages enacted fences, so we should, as best as we can, not get aroused in first place, or, at least, not so much. The more we see, well, than the more we want it. Simple as all that. It's not, in anyway, as is the misconception, that tznius laws are meant to oppress or denigrate women in any way.
(8/1/2014 5:22:33 PM)
79
good article
very intellectually correct and thats what makes it good I also agree with #12 and I am not a grandmother, I am 16 year old girl. but the measures that are called for as such not ideal yes. its good. thanks to the author.
(8/1/2014 5:26:10 PM)
80
Are you all out of your minds?
Seriously? This article was embarassing and you should all be embarassed. Dressing 'imodestly" if not the cause of the downfall of society, your attitudes are.

Women have a right to wear what they want. In fact, friends of mine wear everything from miniskirts to ankle length skirts and they all seem to be enjoying life just fine. Now of course, if you believe that wearing short sleeves or a skirt that doesn't quite cover the knees is the end of the world as you know it, then please go ahead and dress like how you want. But know this. Sometimes people just like to wear short sleeves and short skirts. Their intention is not to bring attention to themselves and to have you lust after then as you walk down kingston. If you are getting divorced because other people dress immodestly according to your opinion then you need to seek help - your marriage was not very good to start with and you are obviously emotionally underdeveloped. Not dressing according to community norms does not make you "sad" or mentally disturbed or unfulfilled as this article would like to imply - certaintly not as much as some of the women who dress tniertzly in CH but have to down Xanax so they can get through their day.

This is not a case of "being a stumbling block" or other versions of that story. The path that your child chooses may not be the way you stated as above, and that way may not be that path, but to call women "pritzus" or whatever is despicable.
Telling someone that they have freedom of choice is not telling them to abandon halacha - it's telling them that they have freedom and they should choose to follow halacha correctly anyway.
Now I am sure you are all certain that I dress like a hussy and you would be wrong. But that is because I am a grown up with a well-developed sense of what I feel is appropriate and what halacha dictates to me. That does not mean that I fall apart because someone else disagrees with me.
You are not animals - you have the freedom to control your thoughts and work on yourselves from within. I will quote the following article which I found really helpful:
"It is a womans responsibility to dress herself in the morning. It is your responsibility to look at her like a human being regardless of what she is wearing. You will feel the temptation to blame her for your wandering eyes because of what she is wearing or not wearing. But dont. Dont play the victim. You are not a helpless victim when it comes to your eyes. You have full control over them. Exercise that control. Train them to look her in the eyes. Discipline yourself to see her, not her clothes or her body. The moment you play the victim you fall into the lie that you are simply an embodied reaction to external stimuli unable to determine right from wrong...."


(8/1/2014 6:02:39 PM)
81
Kasha man
The article is generally true. However there are always a few "not good apples" who enjoy being a negative influence and may never care that they are harming themselves as well. This level has been the criterion of our Nesiim for ostracizing people until they have done proper Teshuva.
(8/1/2014 6:07:01 PM)
82
to#78
I think you got me confused. When I say weak I mean all across the board. Even little girls entice grown men which is sad, no? Men need all the help, but I hope they can help themselves.

Can't wait for winter.
(8/1/2014 6:14:06 PM)
83
To #73
Ur right. I'm sorry about what I wrote before.
(8/1/2014 6:40:33 PM)
84
a man
While tznius is an issue that affects us us all, no man should he standing up and complaining to women. Don't tell me you ''just cant stand it anymore''. If that's the case what do you do when you walk down the street in Manhattan? Its not your job to worry about what the neighbor is wearing. Lo sasuru does not give you the right to preach to others.

If you are worried about moral decadence then start at home. Spend more time learning and doing mivtzaim and the people around you will look up to you and try to be better too. The more we work on ourselves the better the people around us want to be.
(8/1/2014 6:42:17 PM)
85
#80
You hit the nail on the head. Good shabbos everyone. Peace.
(8/1/2014 6:52:10 PM)
86
Assur for Men To Walk on Kingston Ave.---To 80
You are wrong, women do not have a right to wear whatever they want. Women have to wear what halacha dictates them to wear. The Shulchan Aruch is not here for you to choose what feels right for you or not. It is here to be followed, whether you like it or not. In the case of women's clothing, Halacha is very clear what is permissible and what is not permissible. A married woman MUST cover her entire hair and cover at least past her elbow and knee. This is not multiple choice. If a married woman walks down Kingston Ave. wearing a mini skirt and sports a tichel which is half falling off, she is by definition dressed as a prutzah. Calling someone not dressed al-pi halacha a "Prutzah' is not pejorative in any way, it is simply what Halacha and Shulchan Aurch consider such a woman.
(8/1/2014 6:56:19 PM)
87
Style of dress is uplifting
What a great article! And the comments from readers are right on the mark. I personally find the mode of dress on Kingston Ave. quite uplifting. As a shliach, after reading the comments, I decided to remove the mechitza in our shul - after all, if men look, it's their problem. Same thing for chasunas; so what if women are dancing. Men should understand it's their problem. We don't have a tznius issue in Crown Heights - we have a man's issue.
(8/1/2014 6:58:19 PM)
88
to 70
What ur saying is exactly what the first paragraph of the article is trying to point out...its just an excuse for not dressing properly! Maybe men should not preach about tznius but don't be so self centered! Be considerate! Its not comfortable for a man when a women doesn't dress properly!!! Fact! Whether u like it or not!!
(8/1/2014 6:58:25 PM)
89
number 57
so basically al pi shulchan aruch you cant go ANYWHERE.?
for a frum community, CH is terrible, but its better than straight out goyishe places. Are you saying a Jewish man cant go anywhere where iys possible there might be pritzus? There is definately an inyan of shmiras einayim, but to say a person cant (responsibly) venture out into the world for parnasah, shlichis, gorcery shopping, is ridiculous.
(8/1/2014 8:00:07 PM)
90
Have rachmanus on our Rebbe
do you have any idea what others say about Crown Heights and how so many dress there? make all the excuses,it's loshon hara..... YOU'RE BEHAVIOR IS YOUR RESPONSIBILITY!






g
(8/1/2014 8:13:36 PM)
91
To number 86
Please - calling her a prutza or the other derogatory terms (like calling them disgusting, or comparing them to non-jews as if this is somehow an insult ?!) in this thread is just another way of calling her a slut or a prostitute but in hebrew so it doesnt sound quite as bad (and you know it - it has nothing to do with the halachic definition of the word). Unless you know how she earns her money none of you should be throwing those terms around and certaintly not in reference to a woman just because she does not wear what you consider to be halachically suitable dress.

Believe it or not there are thousands of jews out there more stringent and "orthodox" than you. They will tell you that round toed shoes, or hair near your face, or necklaces that have a square symbol on them or whatever is somehow not following halacha. And you would be shocked to find out that they would eat in your house, and call you prutza behind your back.

So here is a piece of advice for men "who don't know where to put there eyes" or somehow feel afronted by this lack of tzniertz:

Grow up.

Don't fall apart because someone doesn't share your world view. Learn to look a woman in the eye like you would any other human being.

Believe it or not, all types of people walk down Kingston. Especially those who have no halachic obligation to dress a certain way. You will come across them and you will survive.
(8/1/2014 8:20:45 PM)
92
To #87
U took the mechitza out of ur shul? What in the world?!?
(8/1/2014 8:29:29 PM)
93
To 87
Nebach. Do u seriously think we don't need mechitzas by weddings and Shuls bc it's the men's problem if they look? I hope u were being sarcastic.
(8/1/2014 8:31:15 PM)
94
to # 80
I cannot believe I what I just read. Do you really think women can dress however they want? Your disregard for Yiddishkeit is astounding! I really feel bad for your husband, your children, ( if you're married) and especially you. With an attitude like that.....oy. And then you bash the people who DO want to be tznius? How absolutely sad. And what a chilul Lubavitch.
(8/1/2014 9:31:46 PM)
95
57 is right!
sadly enough.
(8/1/2014 9:39:50 PM)
96
to # 76
your comment that "the schools value control & conformity more than tznius &* halacha" are distasteful - schools use uniforms as one way of allowing children from less affluent homes to have the same selfworth as those who would buy designer tznius clothing & don't for one one moment think this won't happen... get real
(8/2/2014 8:06:25 AM)
97
Wow. Just wow.
This article is short yet incredibly to the point. Good on you, Aliza for getting it right!
(8/2/2014 10:20:46 AM)
98
i agree
Very well written!!! Whouldnt you be ashmaed seeing the rebbe with untzinus clothes?
Moshiach now
(8/2/2014 6:51:22 PM)
99
woah!
I am reading these comments with my mouth dropped to the floor! I mean here are some of the statements made"i feel sick looking at the woman dressed untznius" Bocherim are getting sick with depression from this""these woman cant be good parents"and more.....what do you think a woman who is not dressed tznius is going to think reading these comments???These above comments are not logical ,rational they sound like something out of a satmar how to book.
(8/2/2014 7:39:57 PM)
100
very well said
hope all of us woman do out best to be tznius all the time
(8/2/2014 9:42:18 PM)
101
To # 24
It sounds like you and your wife really need some professional help with proper communication, if you are resorting to a public forum to express your frustration in not being able to " get through" to your wife, and make decisions regarding your daughter together. I don't know who you are but your description of yourself may be a giveaway to some people who know your daughter or family - how embarrassing for your daughter to read about her parents lack of communication online. To further prevent any more problems with your daughter, it seems quite clear that you need to work out your own marital issues!!
(8/2/2014 9:47:10 PM)
102
image consciousness
I feel uncomfortable with the high value of fashion and image I encounter all the time - and I think tznius is part of it.
I walk down the street and everyone has a 'look' - men and women - that is perfectly curated. Even little kids with the perfect matching outfit and bows and shoes, girls and boys alike. We have such an obsession with 'image' - tznius aside - in terms of dress, speech, how and to whom we relate - which is by the way my impression of societ at large, everyone feels like they have to label themselves and their appearance has to perfectly proclaim that label. When my image is so important, I become obsessed with my clothing and appearance and it becomes that much harder to concede a detail of how I want my appearance to look.
This is an issue that is not exclusive to crown heights, or to women. It's just that in that demographic it's a value that unfortunately clashes with halacha.
My question is, how do we help ourselves and those we influence to be more relaxed, less concerned w perfection of image, more concerned with the rich, nuanced and creative worlds to be nurtured and explored within ourselves and others?
(8/2/2014 9:49:07 PM)
103
Lack of Ahavas Isroel
Love your fellow Jew the way he/she is , and don't judge .....Rebbe loves every Jew so you must do it too ....
You want to have a success in any mitzva -do it in the seter /privately
(8/2/2014 10:35:58 PM)
104
To #96
It doesn't matter what the reasons is,the fact is , the concept of a uniform is not a Jewish thing, and does nothing to promote tznius. If you believe there are good reasons for it ,just ask yourself, do they override the needs of tznius, which needs to be taught with normal clothing.
(8/2/2014 10:44:26 PM)
105
to #41 and the like
I'm # 26. i didn't write it goes for ALL women. i'm refering to and a litvish rav (i forgot his name) said it as well that when the women dress in the outside it's because they are not getting their needs love etc.. fulfilled in the inside (of their home).btw goyim don't have pniyimus since they don't have a part of Hashem so everything is chitzoniyus and the love that they have is for themselves it's not for someone else and with that they are never happy and need to be expressed in the "outside". i just feel that if the women would have more hiskashrus to Hashem they would think twice before to walk out of their homes. before they buy something or they don't have time... they should ask themselves- would Hashem want me to be dressed this way? if i see the Rebbe, would He be pleased and not me feel uncomfortable? when they do that and refuse to buy something or take 2 extra min etc.. they transform darkness into light and in this way making a dwelling for Hashem!
(8/2/2014 10:53:49 PM)
106
The ignorance is abounding
Tznius is not just a female issue,it applies to men as well.
The laws of tznius are not as clear cut as people say it is ,rather it has a lot to do contemporary style.
Tznius is not just about other people seeing you a certain way ,but also (and perhaps more importantly) the way one acts and dresses in front of G-D. Being that G-D is everywhere ,tznius applies even behind closed doors (except in a bath house etc.).
I guess these comments reveal what is at the heart of the problem, a complete lack of proper chinuch.What does that say about our schools?

(8/2/2014 10:58:56 PM)
107
#87 #87
I honestly applaud that move, i hope you were serious!! Its true.According to halacha, a woman can dance and sing all she wants . It is the man's.responsibility to leave.
(8/2/2014 11:21:22 PM)
108
to#105
What a way to generalize the rest of the world. Unless you are a mind reader you have no idea what people feel. Sometimes I don't no why I even bother commenting on this taxing topic.
(8/2/2014 11:26:51 PM)
109
comments from a younger generation
dear writer,
you are right. mostly. you brought up very true topics about the tznius in ch.however there are a few things which i must disagree with you on. first of all the style and expression you used. as you probably know,tznius isnt only in dress but in speech and action too. You may not have realized but the style and expression of words and language were not exactly tznius. Collive is open to all ages and some phrases werent exactly thought out. you also spoke harshly to a GENERAL population "the women of CH." you do realize that there are plenty of women and girls who dressed tniusly and modestly.
also you cannot judge every person. If its that persons struggle in yiras shamayim then hopefully they'll overcome it.
this article looks like it was written spur of the moment, at a time of well- meaning and we must do something to fix this!!
iI actually am not a middle aged bubby-im a young girl who is proud to say she dresses tzniusly.
thank you.
(8/2/2014 11:29:33 PM)
110
Peace
Everyone lives within their own subjective interpretation. Don't judge a book by its cover.
(8/3/2014 12:02:43 AM)
111
......
The rebbe said many times, that while we must bring those far from yiddishkeit closer - we must NEVER compromise the holy Torah in the process.

Why does one not find any similarly dressed women in ANY OTHER FRUM community EXCEPT crown heights?

Answer: Because other communities would not tolerate such a blatant disregard of Torah! Being "accepting and non-judgmental" DOES NOT include taking everything that's holy and pure and throwing it into a sewer!

Crown Heights needs to adopt the same rules that apply in Boro Park, Williamsburg, Monsey and EVERY OTHER NORMAL FRUM community in the world - where women walk around dressed like they should be.

If it's not acceptable there it should not be acceptable here.
(8/3/2014 12:08:43 AM)
112
Perspective of a baalas teshuva
I came to Yiddishkeit through Chabad nearly 20 years ago. I was exposed to wonderful young women who were intelligent and with it and appropriately dressed. I had pre teen daughters who were also positively influenced by the Lubavitch women we met in a variety of different settings. Over the past many years, I, too, have been distressed by the lack of modesty that is so prevalent in Crown Heights (and elsewhere). I highly doubt that my own attraction to Chabad and growth in observance would have happened as readily in today's environment as it did back then. Coming to Yiddishkeit later in life, I was seeking truth, not mixed messages. In recent years, I have worked on myself to have compassion and try to not judge those whom I see dressed immodestly. Nonetheless I am greatly pained by what has become so prevalent, as if it's acceptable. I try to remember that there are mitzvos and halachos that I struggle with, that maybe some other women don't, and I remain grateful that tznius is not a major nisayon for me.
(8/3/2014 12:17:47 AM)
113
I'm Tznius but tempted to not be
I'm Tznius. Because it's the right thing to do. I struggle. And stillI see how some Lubavitcher women dress and I'm appalled. Growing up in Crown Heights there were always one or two women who pushed the boundaries. No stockings, knee-grazing skirts...But now the percentage has gone way, way up. Skirts not even touching the knees - but many inches above. And too many of them.

BUT.
1. Hanging signs about tznius is definitely fanatic and more importantly - it's ineffective. I'm sure that not only do those signs make anyone more tznius - but they may even turn those women on the fence towards exposing more skin. Same for ranting, raving, approaching strangers, and exremist tactics.

2. I am tempted to wear non-tznius clothing. I'm BH happily married. I got loads of attention at home. I just love the look of flip-flops, some short skirts etc. ALSO it's simply EASIER to but whatever I like, find affodable without having to account for tznius. The whole "frustrated/angry/insecure" argument about non-tznius women is pathetic and inaccurate. There are many reasons why people dress untznius. Chief among them is that it looks good on some.

3. Women who preach tznius should make sure they are always dressed beautifully, somewhat fashionably, and are very well-kempt. Clean. Nice sheitel. Otherwise HOLD YOU TONGUE or you may be doing more harm than good.

So please don't making sweeping statements about the motivation of the immodest. And please be a FASHIONABLE Dugma Chaya. And please reach out with love and not anger.

And for those of you who are "TZNIUS-CHALLENGED". Please be respectful of the will of the majority and the Rebbe's will when you get dressed. Look in the mirror and see if your appearance fits the bill. It's hard but it's worth it. Thank you for trying.

4. I not longer live in Crown Heights. I'm approaching middle age. I know many immodest Jewish women who are traditional (kosher, shomer shabbos) and are quite happy. Their clothes don't define them either way. And men don't leer at them.

5. Don't make men out to be sick animals. Any couple that is getting divorced due the lack of community modesty has major issues in self-control and the husband may well be a pervert. Same applies to a bochur who is tortured by exposed women on Kingston Ave. GET COUNSELING AND SOON!

(8/3/2014 12:21:15 AM)
114
to # 34
you forgot to mention where are the PARENTS!!
don't put blame on mashpiim for obvious behavior and most basic elements children should learn at home.
(8/3/2014 12:29:23 AM)
115
What is the real issue?
This is NOT a men's issue or a women's issue. This is an issue of HALACHA. Does the person care about Halacha? Do they care about yiddishkeit? Yiddishkeit is not about "what do I want to do?" When it comes to Shabbos, kashrus etc is your mindset "what do I FEEL like doing / eating?" Or what does HALACHA mandate???

The same thing is with Tznius. It's very simple: cover the neckline, elbows & knees! Seriously, how hard is that really??? It's that inch above or below that makes all the difference whether it's within Halacha or not. Think about it...and you can absolutely dress beautiful, stylish and trendy WITHIN the confines of Halacha. The question is: do you CARE about Halacha???
(8/3/2014 12:47:21 AM)
116
subsudize the tznius economy
The clothing stores charge much more for tznius clothing which presents more challenges. Subsudize the stores selling exclusively tznius clothing to bring down the prices and be competitive.
(8/3/2014 12:49:40 AM)
117
it's mostly because
School tuition is too expensive.
Lower the tuition and tznius will come back.
(8/3/2014 1:22:28 AM)
118
ouch!
I feel that that people who like this article are who don't need it. The critical tone sounds too harsh for the people it is actually addressed to to be able to gain from it.
(8/3/2014 1:27:09 AM)
119
To 92, 93, 107
Of course I (#87) was being sarcastic. Especially the 'uplifting' part. :)
(8/3/2014 1:35:52 AM)
120
"Why I object to this article..."
B"H

In a way its very telling how some people seem to be very threatened by this open discussion on tznius and the reaction to it, an overwhelming popular voice objecting to immodest public dress.

They say:
- Articles like this dont help, itll just make it worse.
- We just "tune out" to these articles.
- Hanging signs about tznius is definitely fanatic.
- It really bothers me how people think that by posting these long articles and everyone agreeing in the comments, that suddenly, the whole crown heights will be dressing the way you want. I'm sorry but that's not going to happen.

Then there is attack the messenger: Instead of addressing the argument that has been made, attack the person making it instead. In other words, if a woman is offended enough to voice an opinion about the lack of modesty, she is accused of being unkempt, and lacks style and flair. They recommend that tznius queens go get your sheital washed, wear proper fitting clothes, not baggy shmattes, bathe yourself properly. Talk about a bait and switch.

There is more, but the undertone comes thru. These messages are saying: Dont bring it up this subject. Keep quiet. Keep it under the table. It is not polite to bring up tznius. Because silence itself sows apathy and confusion and keeps this problem going.

The bottom line is, this article DID hit a nerve in those who are liberal minded who want the freedom to dress provocatively while everyone keeps silent. This article HAS finally struck a chord in many people who have kept quiet all along, too long. The silence feeds the illusions of the confused who take silence for approval. The mere discussion of immodesty on a public forum is a threat to pritzus. Anyone who considers themselves to be part of this community and was confused by the public silence on this issue is being set straight in this public discussion, the young and the old, the men and the women, married and single.

Those who are offended by a public discussion about tznius are in fact being moved for the better. It bothers them because, after all, they have a conscience too. It's clearing up the confusion of a certain implied lenience. The best thing to do is to keep it up. Keep this discussion on the front burner. Contrary to the naysayers, discuss it with your kids. Put up the articles, keep posting, put up tasteful signs that Crown Heights is the Rebbes schuna and that dignified and modest dress is important and appreciated.

And lets remember that if you are pejoratively accused of being a so-called tznius queen, that you too are no more a person who is a work in progress and who is simply trying to be respectful of people and of Hashem. We are not dealing with strangers who are clueless about tznius in Crown Heights. It is not intolerant to reach out to our own daughters, sisters, students, and friends. And husbands SHOULD speak to their wives, obviously in an intelligent, appropriate and tactful way, but lets begin to speak. Lets end the silent acceptance for the terrible harm and chilul Hashem that results from immodesty. Join the whisper. It IS helping!

(8/3/2014 4:32:55 AM)
121
So to wrap this up...
Men are animals that can't be tamed? Hmmm...
(8/3/2014 4:33:16 AM)
122
what whisper?!
From Friday over Shabbos, over 100 comments is a whisper?!
(8/3/2014 4:49:28 AM)
123
Roses
Why are the girls always blamed. They boys have bechirah chofshis. Don't they carry any responsibility?
(8/3/2014 8:00:12 AM)
124
Peer pressure
It's sad that many women are falling for the peer pressure
(8/3/2014 8:06:25 AM)
125
To #57 etc
If it is 100% assur for an unmarried bochur or married man to walk on Kingston Ave, then how on earth is it muttar for male Lubavitcher Chassidim of all shapes and sizes, especially bochurim, to prance around shopping malls, stadiums, businesses etc to doing mivtzoim?

Then again, if we can get all the men off Kingston Ave, then it won't be so bad if women do not dress bitznius since there won't be any men around...
(8/3/2014 8:35:05 AM)
126
to 118
everyone can gain from this article becasue everyone can do better. I am also a work in progress. It's not just about how I dress today, it also matters to remember to be mindful of my dress when it's hot and I'm in a mood to look nice, or buy that outfit that looks so good on me. and even if I never have a problem, I will remember to can find a way to strnghten my sister, nieces, or friend
(8/3/2014 9:16:39 AM)
127
to 121
"So to wrap this up...
Men are animals that can't be tamed? Hmmm... "

interesting attitude...I am amazed at how chassidishe men don't say a thing at what they see on kingstn. I guess you think it's ok to dress provokingly just to see how men are being tamed on Kingston ave. Do you have a brother, husband, a teenage son you want to 'tame'. Or maybe you are a man who's been 'desensitized'.... Either way that's just so sad.
(8/3/2014 9:22:34 AM)
128
1 small step that every mother that really cares, can take...
...from when your children are little NEVER hire a babysitter/mothers helper to be w/your children, who is not dressed appropriately! I am often shocked to see mothers , who themselves are dressed appropriately, think nothing of letting girls spend hours and hours w/their children...being poor but very powerful role models regarding dress and even values... Why should an impressionable 5 year old be absorbing the subliminal message that a gorgeous and very not tznisidik babysitter is fine (because after all , if mommy hired her , she must think the way she's dressing is fine), or why should that impressionable 5 year old be spending her precious time discussing colors of nail polish and make-up, when she could be absorbing the more important messages that so many of our wholesome, wonderful girls could be giving of all the wonders of Hashem's world? Do mothers really think the idea of "tzniusdik" starts at bas mitzvah age? This is one small thing that every mother can do, (to only hire appropriate babysitters, and for that matter staff, if your in a position to do so). It serves a dual purpose...firstly it protects a generation of growing, impressionable children from absorbing non tznisidik messages, and secondly , it sends a message to all those girls looking for jobs that,"no! I do NOT give my stamp of approval to the way you are dressing...either meet appropriate standards to be worthy of being a role model for my children or, you don't have a job!"
(8/3/2014 9:27:50 AM)
129
JUST DO IT!
if not for yourself, at least fpr the safety of the yidden in Eretz Yisrael.
get past what YOU want- time to think of others, not just you, you, you.
(8/3/2014 9:57:39 AM)
130
to#127
That person has a point because you miss the very basic unless it's his mother or sister you can't talk to women.
(8/3/2014 10:11:22 AM)
131
I want to see more!
1. This is a wonderful display of care for growth and improvement. Keep on farbrenging about it! LeChaim!

2. Just one point. All this talk of 'work on the pnimius', seems to me to be an irrelevant argument HERE.
It is certainly true, that people should work on themselves etc. however, that is personal work for the individual.
A community/ school/ neighborhood , or for that matter, any goup body leadership, needs to make external, chitzoniusdike rules that , when adhered to, affect that environment as a whole.
Well, isn't Halacha like that? rules for the group to conform to? It doesn't say in Halacha that " though shalt contemplate on thy inner beauty afore the dressing procedure"(Free translation ;)) , that is what you would (and must) learn in a maamor chassidus or a sicha etc. Halacha makes rules for everyone to obey.

3. So what are we going to do about this? Let's see how we can possitively influence the CH community ( and thereby the worldwide chabad culture) to raise the standards.

4. Maybe there's a few financial backers who would be keen to partner with some willing potential shluchim waiting in CH for the next big thing, to back them to work on putting together an orginisation to make possitive change in a possitive way, through inspiring a movement with art and creativity and enconomics to raise the bar of tznius in CH!

The Jewish world is seeing the most glorious renaissance of Torah inspired culture and heritage etc. Let's make this a part of it!
(8/3/2014 10:17:15 AM)
132
to 127
There is a famous 'vort' that one should only rebuke when it will be adhered to. Us men know far to well, that just saying something will not land very far. It is up to the women of the community to work with their fellows.
Yes and I think that women who dress provocatively are missing something socially, and it is not for us men to address. that.
(8/3/2014 10:31:53 AM)
133
Totally agree with #115
Let's try and remain focused on the real issue if we want some real change. Perhaps some are just ignorant of what Halacha mandates...how do we inform the uninformed? How can we make people care about Halacha in a positive way?

It's really NOT about bashing men or women!

Perhaps, starting with the younger generation, the schools should not make rules that are STRICTER than Halacha. The need for self expression has to acknowledged, not repressed. And this CAN be done within the confines of Halacha. It used to be that way (you were able to wear any color socks and shoes etc) and in regard to Tznius we were a lot better off!

(Maybe, if the girls didn't feel so repressed and they were allowed self expression, they wouldn't feel the need to go to the opposite extreme when not in uniform.)
(8/3/2014 11:06:56 AM)
134
A proposal
I have a proposal then. Men should stay home and take care of the kids and cook the meals and be everyone's doctor/physiotherapist/taxi driver and the many the roles the women of this community fulfil.
If they cannot control themselves, let them keep their eyes clothes and their mouths shut, the same way you expect of women to be neither seen nor heard. The woman can give public talks, and sing loudly at the shabbos tableand sit on shul boards and do all the things that normally attracts accusations of not being "tzniertz".
Because I know I can do all those things and not fall apart at the seams. The reason why? Because I am a grown woman who knows how to move through society without losing my head. I can interact with women and men and not contravene halacha or my personal ethics.
Because my parents gave me a solid jewish (and non-jewish) education that allows me to stand up to peer pressure and other undesirable influences.
A stray elbow or knee is not going to send me astray. If this message board is anything to go by, the halachos you are preaching seem to have achieved the opposite effect, so every thought men have about them is somehow impure.


Every message I have posted on here has someone replying back about I am somehow advocating for people to not keep halacha. I am not saying that all. I am saying that you all need to stop acting like you dont have any control over your thought and actions. That you are completely powerless in the face of a skirt 3 cm too short. Except more of yourselves as women, and more of the men in your lives.

Tzniut is just a way to divert your attention from the real problems in the community like lack of job skills for high school graduates, poverty, boredom and all the other trials you are facing.
(8/3/2014 11:36:29 AM)
135
your all off track of the point
stop worrying about the girls in "your" community dressings', start worrying about the hypocrisy of those who run it (institutions and politicians)and lack of care and maintenance for their community.
(8/3/2014 11:49:56 AM)
136
behavior
This may have been mentioned but I haven't read the comments yet. The whole approach is wrong. We don't have to be tznius to 'protect the men' (are they babies?). And you can't tell people that dressing tzniusdig will bring health and parnassah because it sure hasn't worked for me. Tznius begins not with counting inches or ice cream bribes, but with modeling correct behavior. Yes, behavior in addition to dress. When non frum people are attracted to yiddishkeit through shluchim, they are not attracted by the shlucha's long skirt but by the whole package of erlichkeit and mentchlikeit. You can be 200% tznius but treat other people like garbage and what message does that give? Focus first on your behavior. Show you care. Model politeness and chesed. The rest will follow.
(8/3/2014 12:16:36 PM)
137
Agree with #136
I second that!! People think that by being so into their chassidishkeit, they could forget about the world. You see it, people are so so into learning a sicha and saying their sefer hamitzvos that they have no manners whatsoever and look down upon anyone different than them. How is that meant to be shlichus?? You want to be so frum, why not share it with others?? But they are too caught up in things to even be able to relate to anyone lower than them.
(8/3/2014 1:10:36 PM)
138
1960's
When did this become such a top topic??!! I dress tzniusdikly- I don't care not to ,I have other interests in my life and clothes and how I look doesn't do anything for me. However looking back at old pics of frum chassidisher women in my community from the late 60'searly 70's it's shocking that the same ppl preaching tznius were wearing short skirts and dresses with hemlines clearly above the knee and elbows exposed! Can someone please explain that??!!
(8/3/2014 1:17:42 PM)
139
it's not a few centimetres here and there.
Men are bombarded all day by women's skin, flirting, singing, etc. When I come home I want to relax and what do I see? Our own women trying to outdo the street. It's so disappointing. There is not a moment of peace besides the 10 seconds under the tallis in the morning and maybe the davening if you're lucky. Unfortunately, you're bombarded in shul with street talk as well.
(8/3/2014 1:47:10 PM)
140
To 138
Yes, it's because depsite what people in the Lubavitcher community think, tzniertz standards are very malleable and much more reliant on societal standards than any specific halacha. My mother grew up very orthodox and definitely wore skirts way above her knees - and so did every one in her community - the very same length I would have gotten in trouble for even thinking about wearing. The same thing about head coverage. Noone wore sheitels, they wore hats or tichels, sometimes with hair showing, if they wore anything at all.
(8/3/2014 2:30:27 PM)
141
to #139
As if it's only the women's fault. You know how many guys are flirting and acting not according to halacha? Just because they don't have set guidelines for how they're meant to dress, doesn't meant they're free to do whatever they wish. Why only the women??
(8/3/2014 2:56:02 PM)
142
all over
Not everyone that lives in crown Heights is Labavitch, so this is how some people are used to dressing, I am not saying it is right,, to wear your skirts way above your knees, and please dont tell me why dont these people move, it is not so easy to get up and move these days.
(8/3/2014 3:52:32 PM)
143
:-)
1) you started off with a wonderful case for Tznius (thought provoking, honest, insightful, cleaver....several good layer)
2) your second point was too accusatory and will not be effective, particularly with Lubavitchers. Even if deep down on some subconscious level it's true, it really doesn't matter. Listen, I watch my weight (similar construct) and make sting attempts to look good. If I was incredibly careless (literally) as in I didn't care what other people thought and my self esteem was through the roof that being overweight didn't bother me - I suppose on some level you are correct. But that's an absurd and none realistic madrega. I love about weight loss is that you can pretend it's solely a health thing, so you aren't busted for the shallow "wanting to look good" element.
3) then your guilted ending lost me (and I'm sure many other readers). Without saying it explicitly, you indicated that the lack of modest dress of of Jewish women is somehow correlated with the death of soldiers in Israel. Granted, you did not say that explicitly nor hint it openly, but nonetheless that message comes across. That level of guilt is more damaging than rewarding.
(8/3/2014 4:27:22 PM)
144
GREAT ARTICLE
Col.live should translate it to Hebrew and publicize in their Israeli site
(8/3/2014 4:39:50 PM)
145
Husband's Thoughts?
Just curious...
What do the husbands of these women think when they see their wives leave the house with low cut shirts and mini skirts? Do they not feel the need to say something? Do they not care that their wife is in the spotlight and always the cause for attention wherever she goes?
If I were a man it would bother me...
And vice versa: If my husband was constantly causing attention to himself and everyone (men and women alike) was staring at him as he walked down the street, I would feel very uncomfortable with that.
And let's be honest, you would too.
(8/3/2014 7:22:12 PM)
146
to#145
I think there is something deep down in yourself that you need to figure it out.
(8/3/2014 8:17:33 PM)
147
confused
just wondering, was l suppose to know who Cameron Russel
was? I never heard of her before until I googled her after reading this article? Seriously wondering?!
If you brought her as an example-,how did you know who she was?
(8/3/2014 8:51:56 PM)
148
everyone is different
there are other things that are just important as Tznius, ;and lately thats all you read about on collive, enough already,
(8/3/2014 9:18:45 PM)
149
My opinion
Be respectful to me , as you would want me to respect you !
(8/3/2014 9:45:17 PM)
150
Oh yes
There are more important things to fixate on other than the nuances of tzniut, especially now. Don't you know there's a war on?
(8/3/2014 11:28:49 PM)
151
mindblowing....
There are women on this forum who blame MEN for the lack of Tznius!?!?!?!

Now I've heard everything.
(8/4/2014 1:16:27 AM)
152
to 150
Yes, and when there is a war on, it's important to increase in kedusha through Torah and Mitzvos. Put on tefillin if you usually don't, light shabbos candles properly even if you don't do it regularly, start dressing properly if you don't do THAT usually. Everyone can add a level up from his/her level. What could be more important beruchnius? The zchus brings protection to our people and to our soldiers. Not my idea or the author's - the Rebbe said that, you disagree? What are you busy with?
(8/4/2014 1:22:22 AM)
153
to 120
You are absolutely right!
Keep this discussion going!
(8/4/2014 1:26:08 AM)
154
mixed up...
I asked about what it actually says in the Shulchon Oruch. When the Shulchon Oruch talks about 'Tznius' it not meant as a 'mindset', an 'attitude', 'reaching the inner self', 'being a role model', as 'kindness', 'respect', or any of these important ideas. The dimim of Tznius have a bottom line that have nothing to do with these ideals. It has to do with just physically dressing so as not to appear provocative, PERIOD.

Stop mixing in all these unrelated ideas here. We have a problem today that WOMEN have become so liberal about their physical comportment and dress in the street that you can't tell many of us apart from goyim.

Don't confuse the issue with fine character traits. "As a ring of zahav in the snout of a chazir, so is an isha yafah which is without taam (judgment, discretion)." These fine character traits do not replace using proper judgement in dress.
(8/4/2014 1:43:15 AM)
155
a Lubavitcher woman
I am not one to judge others for their dress, we all have our struggles, but, I do not think it is appropriate for any women to guess what affects un-tznius dress has on men, if you are not a man. It is irritating to read comments from (I'm pretty sure)- women telling men to control themselves. If you are not a man you will never fully understand this test!!

Also, as #102 pointed out, I believe we have to stop turning how we want to appear, into a religion. Yes, we must look clean neat and beautiful, but if it is the focus of your life to dress fashionably, we have a big problem. I was told that fashion style was/is made to call attention to you.
(8/4/2014 4:32:38 AM)
156
There is a major war going on
Its time for the Jews to be united and not argue
(8/4/2014 5:39:48 AM)
157
Learn from Bais Yaakov
I don't live in CH. I see many women in their 30's & 40's dressing not just untznius but what can be termed "racy".
My immediate reaction is that they aren't happy in their marriages. This spills into how they dress their daughters & the example their daughters see.
It's almost as if they are trying to dress as less obviously Jewish as possible.
Many young girls just don't care. Tznius just doesn't matter as much as "looking good". There's a serious lack of chinuch.
In shidduchim it's not uncommon to hear " doesn't wear tights or skirts which cover the knee but is still modest"
Modest? As in the non Jewish concept? Not as Halacha ?
The Rebbe had said we should learn from Bais Yaakov regarding tznius for our girls. So how about we do?

A mother who sends her girls to Bais Yaakov
(8/4/2014 6:29:05 AM)
158
Tznius is for women and men as well!!!!
It's not my opinion or someone else's!!! It's HaShem's opinion!!! The whole point of Tznius is to bring KEDUSHA and SANCTITY in our midst - at home and out! It's not just about attracting others and only about our dress, it's about bringing G-dliness within us and the world, which is the purpose of all the mitzvahs in the Torah!
Please see what the Torah says in Devorim parshas Ki Tetze 23:15 -

Please look up the translation. The bottom line is that G-d wants us to bring sanctity in our midst because of his presence among us, to save us and to defeat our enemies before us and he shouldn't see any nakedness because It is going cause Him to turn away from you! These are the words of the Torah!!!
That is NOT my opinion or anyone else's! This straight from Ha-Shem!!!! That's for men and women!!! It has nothing to do with machlokes or other misbehavior of some individuals. That's only an excuse to blame others.
Our trait as a Jewish nation is - BAYSHONIM, RACHMONIM AND GOMLEI CHASODIM! Bayshonim, doesn't mean only being shy - it means modest and refined! ITS OUR G-DLY DIGNITY OF MAMLECHES KOHANIM AND GOY KODOSH!!! You can still look beautiful and fashionable within Halacha. Is it worth to torture and sell your NESHAMA because of a few more inches?! You can still look nice with a shaitel that's not till your waist. What is the yichus to look like a shiksa?! Mothers and fathers, you are the ones who are responsible for the upbringing of the next generation! If you rebel and want to do what's convenient for you, what would be the reaction of your children when they grow up? Either they will have a positive influence from someone else and loose respect for you or they are going to rebel even more chas v'sholom!
PLEASE HAVE RACHMONUS ON YOUR NESHAMA AND THE NESHOMOS OF YOUR FAMILIES AND KLAL YISROEL!!!
Let's hope that we find the proper way to implement it and be zoche to welcome Moshiach in befitting manor of Yiddishe and Chsiddise kinder of the Rebbe!!!
(8/4/2014 12:23:43 PM)
159
Tsnius is not gender exclusive
I am surprised the way our bochurim are dressing was ignoredin this forum. I also found that lurid description of that model not eidel. I think most kids just want to fit in. They dont dress for men but rather for their peers.Do you know mid calf skirts and looser yes boxier tops are in? I just hope the mechanchos of our high schools don't decide to outlaw them. I remember how we felt as teens we never could do right. Long no good. Short no good. The only way to change things is if it becomes cool to look classy and tsnius. Just like what used to be a nebby mid calf look skirt is stylish right now.
(8/5/2014 11:55:44 AM)
160
horde mentality
The bottom line is people like to fit in. I was inside a Bais Yaakov school and everyone was dressed very tsniusdik but there were signs of peer pressure with a designer scarf or certain hair accesory or shoe style they all conformed to. You would look ridiculous if you showed up the way some of us dress. If we can get some popular women and girls to change the way they dress while still retaining their class you can bet the masses will follow.
(8/5/2014 12:45:43 PM)
161
A tznius out of towner
Being that I was brought up in an out of town city, I see where all these nisyonos come from. Whenever I visited Beis Rivka in Crown Heights, there was a tznius lady checking every girl to ensure she was wearing tights not socks. Tznius was being FORCED on all the girls. Every "chosid checklist" was all about dressing tzniusly. It got so out of hand and was being so forced on the girls, the girls felt that they had no "bechira". Well, the result: the minute these girls leave high school...away goes the socks, the tights, the tznius clothing!!! They start walking around with short skirts with slits, and rebelling in many other areas too. Once married, they often get divorced. I feel that tznius has to be taught in a beautiful positive way, not forcing people into it.
(8/5/2014 4:02:35 PM)
162
Well said
As a jewish woman and mother of a soldier I applaud your article.
(8/5/2014 4:27:49 PM)
163
They Just Don't Care
Thank you for courageously opening the door on this issue. The sad, but true, part is - it doesn't matter why they are dressing this way and who is being affected - the women/girls that are half dressed out there just don't care - period. They are dressing provocatively on purpose and they want your husbands to look at them. They don't feel guilty about it or want to change and there is nothing we can say or do to change that. I am seriously considering moving out of the cummunity because the standards have gone down so much. My young daughters constantly ask me why people are dressed that way if they are "frum" (girls in their class or mothers of girls in their class). I consider myself to be a with-it, pretty and well-dressed mother but I would never stoop to the levels I am seeing on the streets. I have standards, and I have children who will one day grow up to emulate me (G-d willing!). These careless mother's are getting in the way! And please don't say that it happens in every community because I've spent plenty of time in Long Island, Flatbush etc. - there is an overwhelming level of provocative dress in our neighborhood. And we have a reputation for it too (sadly).
(8/6/2014 12:41:24 AM)
164
to#163
Nobody is dressing for you to stare at them. Check your own insecurities.
(8/6/2014 1:41:01 AM)
165
Well Said!
Article is well written. If the article is too explicit for you, then you don't belong on COLlive.
(8/6/2014 12:09:31 PM)
166
164
Right on.

Believe it or not, most of those people could not give two tosses about you (the stranger on the street). They dress for themselves, and how they dress is between them and Hashem.

If being not tzniertz (which can range between wearing socks and walking around naked) is the thing that distresses you so greatly that you come on here and talk about them looking like shiksas and pritzut and basically calling them street walkers then what does that say about you as a person? That doesn't sound very modest to me. I

Why don't you all look into your own lives and own homes first? Not only will you be too busy to have impure thoughts because pf a stranger on the street, but you will be putting time into making the world a better place. When you get all that sorted out, then come back to me and I might take you all seriously.

(8/7/2014 3:19:32 AM)
167
no. 145
I agree with this article. The men should be telling their wives how to dress or else . My husband tells me that I have to keep his level, and all I want to do is use the aruv to carry a pair a glasses to shule so I can read. Let the men stop providing money so their wives wont be able to purchase untsniut clothing.
(8/7/2014 3:20:24 AM)
168
to#167
Nowadays women make their own money. Can't be controlling all the time.
(8/7/2014 8:16:36 AM)
169
just put into perspective...
I read this article and I agree with most of it. I just woulld like to add that tznuis is not something positivly encouraged in what is considered "top chabad high schools." Its something imposed annd certainly not explained. I found through my experience that most of what is imposed should be considered personal chumrahs.the actual halacha has been lost within that. I really think its important to start Basic and build on your own levels of tznius.otherwise to me it just looked like a whole bunch. Of rules of do and don't and makes it seem impossible.
(8/8/2014 1:21:37 AM)
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