Aug 8, 2013
Let's Talk Proper Dating Etiquette

From the COLlive Inbox: A single girl going through shidduchim says certain dating scenarios have left her confused, wondering "what was the thought process involved?"

Scenario 1: You're sitting across from your date, on date number 8. He is sitting sideways, with his back to you, staring out the window. Every few minutes he takes out his phone to check it, text someone, etc. Awkward silence. You try to make conversation, to ease the atmosphere. He responds in one sentence answers, then resumes the silence. The next day he tells the shadchan "yes, I'd like to continue."

Scenario 2: You're sitting across from your date, on date number 1. He hasn't prepared a place to go, asking you, "so where are we going?." Luckily you remember a nice place, and even more luckily you remember how to get there. He's lounging on the hotel couch in the bar, reclining on his side. Awkward silence. You try and make conversation to ease the atmosphere. Silence in response. A few minutes later he starts a different topic. You eagerly join in. The next day he tells the shadchan, "No. I got to know her very well and we just aren't a match."

***

Hi! I'm a single girl having gone through the dating process, more times than I'd like to recount. I've had my share of good dates, bad dates, best dates, and terrible dates. Some of the guys I've dated were perfect gentlemen. However, the scenarios above have happened to me in the past, more than once. They left me very confused, wondering "what was the thought process involved?" These particular guys were very mentchlich, polite, intelligent, good guys. This wasn't the first time they'd dated either. Where does the casualness come from? The disregard for the person they're dating? The lack of effort put in? And quite frankly, the disrespect?

The strange part is, I have nothing against these guys. I would even go ahead and pass their names along to my friends. Which I have. I still think they're great guys, just not for me. So why do they present themselves in this manner? Is it some type of test or game? Hasn't anyone ever told them about proper dating etiquette?

My reasons for writing this article are twofold. Number one, I'd like to hear from the guys' perspective. Maybe there is something I'm missing. Something I'm not understanding. I would love to hear some honest and sincere responses.

Number two, I'd like to share my perspective with the guys who treat the dating process with apparent casualness. There is a proper way to behave on a date. Whether the date is going well, or not. Whether you are interested in the person you are dating or not. Whether it's the first date, or the eighth. Please show respect for the person you're dating and give it your all. Thus respecting yourself, and giving yourself a chance. Come prepared. Show interest. Be attentive. It's ok to be chilled, to a degree, but a date is a serious thing, not to be taken lightly.

What I would like to suggest, is perhaps Bochurim could take part in a class in which "how to date" is discussed. Talks can be give on topics such as preparation, proper etiquette and basic manners.

After all, it's your life partner your seeking, is it not?

Disclaimer: I am not writing this with bitterness. I am simply writing this, because I feel it needs to be discussed. Please try and refrain from commenting in a negative or accusatory manner. Additionally, I'd like to say that I'm well aware that girls are capable of behaving in the same manner. Since I am a girl, though, this article is written from a female perspective based on some of my personal experiences.

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Opinions and Comments
1
Very right...
SO TRUE..
(8/8/2013 11:13:52 PM)
2
thank you
I have been in the shidduch scene for many years and i want to say thank you for a well written article. I have to say that i identify very much with your feelings as i have experienced much of this in my dates... buchurim need to learn to learn to be polite and interested.. wheather they are or not, the menshlich thing to do is to act properly. i am not sure where this comes from. perhaps this has to do with a lax attitude in their upbringing when it comes to respect or a disconnect from reality... thank you for bringing this up. i hope to hear the feedback.
(8/8/2013 11:13:56 PM)
3
Shekoyach
Thank you for sharing your experience. I wish you mazel and brocha finding your beshert!
(8/8/2013 11:23:28 PM)
4
Bochur
As a bochur I'm somewhat surprised to hear that guys act so nonchalantly and casual on dates. If a normal bochur is dating, it should mean that he has tachlis and wants to get married. There's nothing casual about marriage, and the process leading up to it has a certain standard which should be respected with the same reverence. In the scenarios you described I can definitely see how you would be left confused afterwards. If a girl I was on a date with ignored me and was texting her friends I would share the same sentiment.
My only practical, generic suggestion would be directed towards that eight date scenario that you mentioned. If you've both been on seven dates in the exact same place under the exact same conditions it might be a good idea to consider a change of environment. That way you will see each other in a different setting with the hope of seeing the other person in a new light. You'll discover certain character traits that would never have surfaced, at least in practice, in a hotel lobby. Now, depending on what those traits are and how they are manifest, that should give you a much clearer understanding of who the person is, and whether or not to continue dating. You hopefully won't be left in the dust, confused and bewildered, because you'll know exactly why whatever happened happened.
(8/8/2013 11:34:25 PM)
5
from a guy
They are most likely just being themselves. Its not the best manners but wouldn't you rather the guy acts himself instead of putting on a show? What do you gain from a nice date with a real gentleman when he turns out to be nothing of the sort?

Be happy he's acting himself and making your choice easier.

Ps for those guys who don't want to be the subject of the next op-ed check out Adaiad.org and register.
(8/9/2013 12:06:43 AM)
6
Mazal
very true and supportive, good luck to you!!
(8/9/2013 12:08:18 AM)
7
huh?
You would pass these guys names on to a friend? some friend you are.
(8/9/2013 12:13:27 AM)
8
Adi ad
Guys and girls check this out - no joke!
www.adaiad.com (adai ad .com)
(8/9/2013 12:35:08 AM)
9
A guy in the filed
Unfortunately the girls are not in control of the date which makes them subject to some horrible ones. All the guys i know that are dating do take it seriously and come prepared. Maybe it's not a guy thing but an age thing?
(8/9/2013 12:46:31 AM)
10
G.S.
There is really nothing you can do. Unfortunately, some guys have no class, and don't act properly. However, there are plenty of girls that are just as bad, if not worse. I've been on quite a few dates with girls that were rude, unresponsive and extremely inconsiderate. As disappointing as it can be, that's life. Just enjoy the process and remember that every bad date means one more good dating story that you can tell you friends and family about :)
(8/9/2013 12:51:24 AM)
11
sounds like...
guy #1 is not a mentsch, and guy #2 may not be attracted to you. On another note, i find it strange that on date #8 there's awkward silence and little conversation; if it got that far, u obviously enjoy each others' company and should get along very well. and i dont think there's any good excuse for him to do that.

24 yo guy
(8/9/2013 12:52:22 AM)
12
Scenarios
Don't be confused in Scenario #1, he finds you attractive and in Scenario #2 he doesn't, men are simple.
(8/9/2013 1:01:43 AM)
13
The other side of the coin.
Since you've acknowledged that girls are capable of the same behavior, this may be a moot point. However, I just wanted to let you know, that it exists on both sides of the isle. Also, when you arrange that class, they should have a female section.

I've gone out with a girl, who (after making me wait for quite a few minutes) came out to the car, and asked me my name. Not as a means of making small talk; she actually didn't know my name. She followed up with questions that are clearly answered in my very brief profile, and she was learning it all for the first time. She knew absolutely nothing about me, and she didn't seam to be into the date in the slightest. Her parents told her to go out with me, and she did. (Aside from that, she's a great girl, who I'd recommend to friends.)

I'm not angry at the girl, but I'd like to get the message out there, from the guy's perspective: Dating is expensive, and exhausting. If you're not into it, don't waste our time and money.

Best of luck in your journey.
(8/9/2013 1:10:33 AM)
14
To #7
She did say that she still thinks they're great guys, just not for her. She was just wondering why they present themselves in this manner. She sounds like a very non-judgmental girl, willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. Someone I would be happy to have as my friend!
(8/9/2013 1:38:36 AM)
15
Hey
At least you're getting dates - that's more than most of us are getting these days.
(8/9/2013 1:42:28 AM)
16
psychological health
As a Bochur who is dating have treated every girl with respect and showed interest, please say no to somebody who does that as that is a clear sign of an abusive of neglecting personality.

On the flip side, girls at time show that they are interested or having a great time and then say no and showed they had a good time because they were scared.
(8/9/2013 2:10:59 AM)
17
Boruch Hashem
Whats losers these 2 guys were, good thing you had enough seichel to call it off
(8/9/2013 2:13:08 AM)
18
To#7
Yes, it makes sense. Some people are sensitive to these things and some are not, by giving it to a friend that may not be a sensitive to this matter may create the perfect match.

No one is perfect.
(8/9/2013 2:23:25 AM)
19
I agree
Better to end a date early,than to be texting.
If one is bored on a date,it means the person doesn't have hamshochas halev
(8/9/2013 2:30:19 AM)
20
Not just on dates...
As a married woman, I have to say that unfortunately, I have noticed many men acting disrespectful. My husband included (and he is a work in progress), a lot of newly married men end up being rude and lacking disrespect to their wives. The way you would treat and speak to another bochur, is never how you should treat your wife or, obviously, your potential wife.
(8/9/2013 2:31:53 AM)
21
amazing!
being themselves is ridiculous. can you imagine your father texting non stop through your wedding? its the same thing. if your a polite person then by an important event your phone should be off!!!!!!
(8/9/2013 3:10:21 AM)
22
Not a guy thing
This is not a guy thing, it's a personality of some, some who can be male and some who can be female that don't have the proper etiquette. Especially the older people that have been on many dates before, they come to the date making the other really feel like they are just another one of the very long list of people they had already dated, rather than making them feel this is my first date and i wanna make it work. I'm a guy and I was treated this way by a girl who's been older and around longer than I was on the dating scene. Please let's not turn this into a male vs female thing, people lacking mentchlichkait is across the boards and by both genders unfortunately.EVERYONE must treat dates seriously and respectfully. We all must learn to do better and act appropriately from the beginning of dating until the end, no matter what stage one may find himself.
(8/9/2013 4:47:01 AM)
23
Bayis Yehudi classes
In seminary girls get lessons on how to approach shidduchim including giving refs and dates. Boys don't. If these matters are discussed it's at a farbrengen with a bottle of alcohol on the table. Shiurim in Gemoro and Chassidus don't teach you how to act with girls on a date.
A simple example is that my sister's class were taught that on a date the guy should be leading the conversation, but hang on a minute no-one taught me that.
Another issue is that in Yeshivah I had basically no interaction with the community; no chessed hours, no Shabbos meals out etc. so there is not even any interactions with a hostess. So basically after 4 or 5 years in Yeshiva only ever talking to bochurim, hanholo and maybe the secretary on your mivtzoim route, you're dumped in a situation where you are expected to speak to a girl for a couple of hours and lead the conversation!
Maybe it's time for some equality- teach the boys the same stuff the girls learn. And not at a farbrengen; in a class. Farbrengen's are very nice, but they won't fix this issue.
(8/9/2013 5:00:06 AM)
24
To 24
Manis Friedman has done just that many times over the years, but you have to go to him for it, it's not like its a class given when you were in Oholei Torah, although that might actually be helpful.
(8/9/2013 8:53:10 AM)
25
Texting
Texting is NEVER appropriate on a date. It is highly insulting and demeaning for the person sitting opposite you. It is not even right to say 'oh excuse me for a minute! this is an emergency, I am so sorry.'
TURN OFF YOUR PHONE DURING YOUR DATE. Nothing will happen if you are out of touch for 2 hours. And more importantly, you will learn a new skill - how to talk to people face on without distraction. Sadly, we are all losing this ability as we become more and more dependent on our electronic devices to keep us connected and occupied. They are great for a wait in a doctor's office. Not so great when you are sharing an intimate evening with your potential future mate! Please (guys and girls) learn how to talk directly, look people in the eye, NOT look down at your phone, not read while you listen.... it will help in marriage, in parenting and in getting a good job.
(8/9/2013 9:33:02 AM)
26
classes
Many Smicha programs offer quite a fair amount of that too (personally, Melbourne Smicha. But there are others too)
(8/9/2013 9:38:03 AM)
27
however
Don't many of these young men have sisters and a mother???Don't they have female cousins and aunts?You mean not one person has taught them some manners?Come on now!You can't hide behind the "I was in Yeshiva so long....".How do their sisters not talk to them?Why not a website that have dos and don'ts?
(8/9/2013 9:48:31 AM)
28
To number 23
Have you not seen your parents be hosts and see how they interact with people?
(8/9/2013 10:03:33 AM)
29
Very True!
Same experiences! Would be great if bochurim could be prepared for dating, showing care, interest, putting in effort., etc..
(8/9/2013 10:10:36 AM)
30
as a mother
I would like to say that every person should have respect for the person they are dating. Each date is important. Each goes out with great expectations and each should act accordingly. NO ONE should have their cell phone on. Their attention should be focused on the person they are with and nothing else.
As I tell my own children, if the person is acting so 'heimish' (translate to b'heimish) when they should be striving to make a good impression, what will they do when they are actually living with you??? Respect is the first step to any relationship and if that cannot be given on a date, it will never be given.
(8/9/2013 10:37:55 AM)
31
So true!!
I've been in the same situation. I think that girls are taught these things, and guys arnt. Perhaps yeshivas should bring in a guy to speak to the bochurim, who's a dating coach or something. I know the girls have that...
(8/9/2013 11:46:21 AM)
32
Sorry
The behavior of Bochrim in the dating process, is a begining rude awakening of what being married to one of them means.

MEN are selfish,egocentric,and animalistic(although there are exceptions to the rule, and sometimes,(much less times)) it is the women)..But as a Klal, the woman is resposible to make a Mentch out of the men. Dating is a taste and an experience of what the future holds for her. Sorry !!!
(8/9/2013 11:57:42 AM)
33
crown heights
THERE ARE BOYS WHO ARE SERIAL DATEING AND THE SHATCHONIM KNOW WHO THEY ARE AND THEY SHOULD TELL THE GIRLS THEY MESS UP PLENTY GIRLS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
(8/9/2013 12:04:20 PM)
34
it's not about
learning how to speak to the opposite gender - you are either a mentsch, or you aren't. you don't need special classes for it - at least not for the above-mentioned issues.
(8/9/2013 12:05:20 PM)
35
@#32
Really. Was that sarcasm?
(8/9/2013 12:50:40 PM)
36
In continuation to 23
I never meant to imply that this is an excuse for a lack of derech eretz, if you can't put away your phone for a couple of hours then you'll get nowhere be it a shidduch, a job interview or even a conversation with a friend.
Leaving classes till smicha assumes that everyone does it!
Interaction with your mother, sisters cousins or even guests at your house is not the same as a shidduch although basic menshlichkeit is the same in every situation.
(8/9/2013 12:54:05 PM)
37
You will not like what I am sayin
This may be hard for some to accept but this is why we need to date a little more like he boro park style. We should be setup and have our parents present for the first date, they can get the convo going. This is the best way,.
(8/9/2013 1:16:25 PM)
38
Great entertainment
This is better than anything hollywood can come up with.
(8/9/2013 1:19:08 PM)
39
to#37
No way. That is plain awkward and I couldn't go along with it.
(8/9/2013 1:22:35 PM)
40
juvenile
I think the actual article is a bit juvenile, which I think the above comments sort of brought that to light. but that aside, I also think CH can learn from Boro Park, at least for the younger singles doing dating. Myself, I am an old BT, single never married, so I probably do not have a right to even make a comment. But to try to highlight the approach of other chassidim, which presumably have the same roots as chabad (we just made a new derech in many things, apparently in shidduchim too) - it seems the other chassidim, the parents are much more involved, relying on a so-called shadchan coach or classes is about as logical as goyim relying on public schools to teach their kids morals and values; parents need to be involved, and why sholdn't they? the problem with this type of posting is it is very situational; is the author writting about age 20-23; or 34-26, or even older?? and again as said in many posts above, playing on phone on a date is not right in general, but nor is it right even with a friend, or anybody - so the posting is very surreal. and to say all men are like that is absurd; you should have and could have picked more normal flaws.
(8/9/2013 1:42:49 PM)
41
no no you are 100% right, 90% of guys around here have no basic idea of ettquite.
its depressing, but true. Girls, you have it tough. hatzlocha!
(8/9/2013 2:00:00 PM)
42
to#40
Again I say no way.
(8/9/2013 2:07:16 PM)
43
Anon
Can we guys get a break. Sheesh.
(8/9/2013 2:26:04 PM)
44
To #40
To quote: the problem with this type of posting is it is very situational; is the author writting about age 20-23; or 34-26, or even older?? and again as said in many posts above, playing on phone on a date is not right in general, but nor is it right even with a friend, or anybody - so the posting is very surreal. and to say all men are like that is absurd; you should have and could have picked more normal flaws.

Come again.?!? 1) What does age have to do with disrespecting someone? 2) if many people are saying that theyve been in similiar situations, then obviously this isnt a single situation problem. 3) that its rude to use your cell phone when out with friends etc. dosnt negate the fact that its rude on a date. 4) anyways the point of the article wasn't cell phone use specifically 5) where in the article does it 'absurdly' say that ALL men are like this? 6) what constitutes a 'normal' flaw?7) lastly, if someone took the time to write a (very mature and well written) article about this issue, than obviously she felt that it was an important issue. (As many have agreed).

I'm not sure what your point is? If it was to say that you couldn't relate to this article and would have written about something else, then aderaba, write your own article about an issue that you feel is important.
(8/9/2013 2:30:25 PM)
45
To #40
I don't think you read the article carefully. To me it seems that was the whole point of the article: It does seem surreal, but unfortunately has in fact taken place. NOtice how other girls have commented that they've experienced the same thing. What is juvenile about bringing to light behavior that is wrong and could be corrected? What difference does it make how old someone is? This type of casualness towards dating is just plain wrong. Nowhere was it implied that ALL guys date this way, but rather that some do & that they should be aware that they are presenting themselves in a negative manner.
(8/9/2013 2:32:17 PM)
46
Prepare a secha
I had these awkward silent moments while dating, so I used to prepare a sicha for the date. It helped. I'm married with kids Ke"h. Now my sichos are a lot shorter.

I agree that respect is something we all have to work on.
(8/9/2013 2:32:38 PM)
47
to #41
I agree with you 100%. For some reason, it seems that the guys today have little respect for the girls they are dating, they are rude, and often times inconsiderate, whether its the way they plan a date, come in a dirty car, the way they speak, or even the way they pay little attention to how they dress, no-one is asking that they dress in Armani suits, but at least be neat, clean, and presentable. The girls clearly care about their appearance, and the guys certainly don't forget to judge that part. Act and speak with derech eretz, not as if you are doing the girl a favor by just showing up. If you are serious than show that, if it is all a game for show than please don't waste other people's time.
(8/9/2013 2:36:38 PM)
48
A guys prespective
My 'rents nag me all the time to go out with this person and and that person, I always check em up on fbook and twitter and most times not interested, but my parents keep nagging on my back so I go out.

I go out and just as I thought she not for me, I am with the program and no right away if yay or nay and I feel bad she sitting there yappin away thinking its all swell, I am missing the game and trying to check the score. Whats a guy supposed to do?

She keeps going on and on and on about shlichus and to make matters worse she came with a chitas, how do I make this end?

I ask my dates at times where to? cuz my type of girl will answer back some smart cute answer, them girls that be all "excuse me, i thought its your job", they aint for me. Girls need to be able to make decisions and have opinions, if you like being led to the water and ur hubby making all the decisions that is great but not for me.

So if I dated this writer (have no clue but could of been me), you have great writing and analytical skills but just not for me.

Its a known fact that guys get a quicker read and can form their opinion in the first date. girls up until the 3rd date cant even see where it is headed.

And just btw dear girls of the world we have our gripes too, we go on dates and sometimes you dress like you going to take out the garbage or sthing. Dress up, look you best this is your bashert we talking about.

(8/9/2013 2:38:39 PM)
49
to #48
I am sorry. It's very obvious why you are single and you have a lot to work on.
(8/9/2013 4:07:52 PM)
50
dating game
Here are some things, I, as a guy, would change about the dating game. I would like dating to be more casual. I don't mean behave rudely...But be yourself. This goes for guys and girls. It's a quicker and better way to get to know someone. The same way if you were going out with friends, it wouldn't just be one person choosing activities all the time, it would be nice if girls provided input about where to go on dates too. Most young 20-somethings would take the subway into the city. Why do guys need to rent a car? And don't be so old fashioned: It's a casual meeting that you both hope works. Feel free to split the costs. The girl works for a living as does the guy...why does the guy have to spend all his money flying around to girls, renting cars and buying her drinks? I understand chivalry, but it kind of loses its luster and gets a little expensive when your entire dating culture is based on the guy spending all the money and doing all the work.

(8/9/2013 4:52:13 PM)
51
ADAI AD
The Adai Ad courses for girls and boys, organized by Mrs Devorah Krasnianski cover all of this plus more.

As someone who has taken the course, I would highly recommend them to all single girls and boys.
(8/9/2013 5:27:57 PM)
52
to 27
its a lot different when youre speaking to someone youve known your whole life. but still that doesnt excuse lack of manners
(8/9/2013 7:00:37 PM)
53
ABBB
I have no idea why you'd recommend either of these guys to your friends...
(8/10/2013 3:56:54 PM)
54
what is the etiquette
For bochurim when bump into girls they dated???
(8/10/2013 7:43:41 PM)
55
To 54
It's mad awkward. Or it's another opportunity to date them, if you're still single :-)
(8/10/2013 9:55:54 PM)
56
to 50
couldnt agree more
and im a girl
(8/10/2013 10:57:45 PM)
57
to #54
That's a mystery! Once, I passed by a girl who I've dated, and she waved. Thinking that that was the acceptable standard, I waved when I passed by another girl I've dated, and she completely bugged out, turned away, and blushed. I'm very confused. I hope some girls chime in.
(8/10/2013 11:12:53 PM)
58
56 and 50
Please go out.
(8/10/2013 11:29:38 PM)
59
50. 56
Guy should pay for everything Why.?
You go to date a little more serious, don't waiste money just dating
Many guys date more than 30 girls
(8/11/2013 12:12:55 AM)
60
my opinion on the expense
meet in a private home -it's the best - an elderly or young couple could be in the far end of the house or if a Rov agrees they could come in or out of the house for Yichud reasons.
You would still have your needed privacy and would save tons on dating. I know couples who did it and are very happy B"H.
(8/11/2013 1:25:38 AM)
61
scenario 1
sounds like a problem gambler who can't help checking up on his bets on his phone but after 8 dates still likes you but can't keep focused on what REALLY matters
(8/11/2013 3:30:09 AM)
62
Agree with 5,12,32,50
Agree with 5,12,32,50

On a side note
Guys are verrrry simple
If they find u attractive they will " engage" u ( pun intended;)
If not, then they squirm and fidget and wander off mentally

Now here's the shocking kicker truth
Male brains take 7.70 seconds to determine attractiveness
Which leaves 2 hrs of uncomfortableness ahead of them

P.s. 7.70 is exaggerated . It's really 1.1

(8/11/2013 5:41:14 AM)
63
chauvinism
From all these women writing that men are pigs... I see that chauvinism is alive and well by women. For every beheimah man I've seen at least one nasty woman. There are plenty polite men and women and vice versa. Not sure why the stereotyping by these women who are commenting on COL.
(8/11/2013 9:22:57 AM)
64
help!
It's terrific that Rabbi Friedman and the Adi ad are trying so hard to help singles in this stage of life. unfortunately most 24 and up will not participate. Please share a weekly thought on this sight to educate our youth. this is the perfect forum that everyone reads a great teaching op.
(8/11/2013 10:11:05 AM)
65
Couldn't agree more with comment 63!
All you ladies with marriage problems should seek help from your lawyer or psychiatrist; don't scare every high school girl reading this who doesn't know that your exaggeration is extreme.
(8/11/2013 12:25:32 PM)
66
to 48
I relate. My mother also tries to nudge me to go out with almost every name that comes up
(8/11/2013 12:27:25 PM)
67
Communication
If these guys are silent or disinterested with you -- especially on the 8th date, it's time to move on. If he cannot carry on a conversation with you he's not mature enough to get married. And, if their behavior on a date is a precursor to married life, do you want such farbisseners?
(8/11/2013 1:34:17 PM)
68
Agree with #67
As a guy, if it's just not happening chemistry wise/I feel it isnt a match, I think it affects how I act during the date, even without planning to act that way. I dont understand why a guy would then ask for another date however. In general, not having an idea where to go & not acting interested don't seem like good signs to me
(8/11/2013 6:39:48 PM)
69
TO #48
Man, you got some serious issues. You sound like an extremely immature person who has a lot of growing up to do before you are ready to get married. Your parents should not be forcing you to date. That is not right of them. However, once you go out, no matter how off the date is, you should be fully invested and give the girl your complete attention. If you cannot feign interest for 3 hours then you are not ready for marriage. I'll let you in on a little secret - one day you will be married and your wife will be "yappin away" quite often about subjects you have no interest and you will have to be a good husband and listen to her regardless.
If you are worried about the football score more than the girls feelings, then put off dating for a few years, and when you grow up a bit you should then date.
P.S. If you ever want to get a girl, NEVER refer to your parents as 'rents. I can't express enough how nerdy and loserish that sounds
(8/11/2013 6:58:22 PM)
70
to 54
Do whatever you are comfortable doing. It is only awkward if you make is awkward. Personally, I have no problem waiving or talking to a girl I dated in the past. Sometimes they shy away and are uncomfortable, so the next time I just ignore them or give them a simple nod hello.
(8/11/2013 7:02:01 PM)
71
To Mrs. Adler
I agree, but that doesn't mean the guy or girl can't be polite and make pleasant conversation for a few hours. Since when do you have to be attracted to a girl in order to speak to them????
(8/11/2013 7:03:40 PM)
72
#43,#63
I was thinking the same. Thanks.
(8/11/2013 8:30:38 PM)
73
@ #48
You are a discrace to us men!!
I can't believe how disrespectfull and arrogant you are!!

"I go out and just as I thought she not for me, I am with the program and no right away if yay or nay and I feel bad she sitting there yappin away thinking its all swell, I am missing the game and trying to check the score. Whats a guy supposed to do? "
What's a guy suppose to do????
Well i"ll tell you what a guy definitly does NOT have to do ...CHECKING THE SCORE!!!!

If you don't like to hear her "yap" that's fine, you don't like the way she dresses...that's also fine...you don't have to!
There's a reason we go on a dates...to find out if she is for you.
If she's not for you...than you pass on the message politetly and life moves on..

"Dress up, look you best this is your bashert we talking about. "
Well my addvice to you is: Put your phone away. This is your bashert too we r talking about!
(8/11/2013 9:55:36 PM)
74
A bochur in the shidduch scene
I am sorry that you had these bad experiences. B"H I was taught to respect everyone especially someone who may be your potential bashert. If I were a girl I would see such behavior as a red flag from the beginning.
I used Adai Ad, and it was definitely a good program to get your brain jogging. I didn't feel there was anything really new. It was more of a guide. But that was just me...I think everyone should do it though... a lot of people ae clueless, especially guys and need it. Before I dated I had questions that would sound rediculous to me now, but my sisters and brothers BH helped me in clarifying them. This is probably why Adai Ad wasn't such news to me.
Either way, most girls I went out with were nice and respectful, except for one, whom I gave the benefit of the doubt and thought she just wasn't too bright. She was absolutely rude and made me feel inadequate for like a week after we finished dating. She made these very weird faces at me when I tried to converse
(8/12/2013 5:19:50 AM)
75
A bochur in the shidduch scene 2
I'm not gonna get too into detail, but she was simply rude and abnoxious. I thought she had some weird facial reactions or something so I didn't address it. Either way, the point is that dating can be tough for boys or girls. Eveyone has their faults and complaints about others. But please remember one thing please do not generalize on one gender being worse than the other, that's plain stupidity. There are good boys and good girls and vice versa. Boys have their concerns with spending tonns of money (and I can personally say that I am not exaggerating when I say that I have spent thousands of dollars dating already, and I am very careful with my hard earned money) and other concerns, and girls have their concerns with other things that guys aren't concerned with. Some peoples posts here are discriminating against genders, and it is so elementary.
To address another point that was brought up about having more of a casual situation for shidduchim, I personally feel would be advantageous for me. I don't know about others and I am not quite sure what the Rebbe would feel about it considering that there is a shidduch crisis, but I think it might work. Personally, I hate profiles and pictures, they are ridiculous. I don't know who came up with it. For thousands of years people would get married without "job applications" there is no reason it is needed now.
To be frank, this may just be the reason, or one of many reasons why there is a shidduch crisis. Think about it. You are limiting a person to a peice of paper that will help you determine if you should even meet the person. (Of course you need some research, but this has gone way out of control). And btw bh I have a solid profile. I went through the system, went to good yeshivas. Untouched beard, a BA etc. But It is still waay too mechanical for me and feel that there is no other option available, because the type of person I'm looking for would most probably be mainstream doing shidduchim this way...And from previous posts I can see that I am not the only one...Something must be done...not sure what. But if something doesn't change soon wthin the next 5-10 years boys and girls that will have been a bit more reserved/chassidish will begin to look for other options and begin to be a bit too casual. I hope there will be a fix though very soon...Maybe Adai Ad can help address this...
I hope everybody finds their bashert with ease, and it should be an enjoyable experience, and that it is the right way. And may Moshiach come now! :)
(8/12/2013 5:54:38 AM)
76
The solution
I think we should have more casual quikie dates; a name comes up, while the parents do research let the kids go out for 1 hr and see if there is anything to even talk about..

(8/12/2013 7:41:33 PM)
77
i check the time on my phone im not texting
(8/12/2013 8:35:22 PM)
78
re: the solution
Your idea can be devastating. True it can save time if there is no attraction. But what if there IS initial attraction and the guy/girl is an awful prospect beyond their looks/personality attractiveness, then the parents get frustrated that their son/daughter is dating someone with major issues... and things get very exciting (in a bad way).
(8/12/2013 11:32:21 PM)
79
To 77
Yay so now you are being rude in a diff way (think how you feel when you are trying to spend quality time with some one and he checking the time a whole time)
(8/13/2013 8:08:19 AM)
80
To number 74/75
I couldn't agree more. I think the whole idea of a 'resume' is ridiculous. Whenever anyone asks I tell them I have a job already. The fact that you have to reduce yourself down to a couple of sentences so that someone else can come along, and judge your entire self based on those couple of lines is just stupid to be honest. What happened to good old-fashioned calling friends and family?

I read a paragraph from a guy's resume describing what he's looking for in a wife. Thought to myself that's nice, but, A) It sounds like he's describing a china doll/robot/model/machine
B) Doesn't tell me anything about him (except for the fact that he obviously has an extremely naive view of what marriage is).
(8/13/2013 9:53:48 PM)
81
#48
The whole world is looking for you or so you think.
Dont waste other people's time . Rather get ready
enhancing your midos before you do someone that huge favor of going out.
(8/14/2013 12:51:45 AM)
82
Girl who agrees
#2 tons of times. Come prepared please. It's so stressful to think of a place on the spot. If you ask me ahead of time to prepare I will. But on a first date it's expected the guy will have some plan unless otherwise discussed.

I really think its rude. Ask a friend or look on yelp.com. You cannot go wrong with a rooftop hotel.

P.s to writer who has experienced first scenario, totally unacceptable. I would address it with the guy then and there!
(8/14/2013 3:23:20 AM)
83
"speed dating" is the answer to most of these posts
if it's true that men take 1.1 seconds to decide, and i think it prob is that way for women too....they're just nicer about it....set up speed dating under respected mashpiim.

five minutes with each girl/bochur is enough to decide if they would like to go out on a date.

yes, some people may get hurt....that's the down side...but does it outweigh all the singles who are getting hurt every single day by either being rejected after a date, or not getting any calls at all?

please, let someone be brave enough to let the young people just see each other....not in a car late at night, but in a room with rabbonim and rebbetzins...

it's tznius, it's proper and it will set up a whole host of new dates HOPEFULLY.
(9/30/2013 12:21:01 PM)
84
Thats Funny!
That is too funny. I am told by multiple Shadchanim that the first date should be light, nonchalant and just to see if we have rapport. Now for me, this is no easy task. I want to get very personal right away, and I tend to get attached easily. So I lower my interest, and smile and am curious. But I hold myself back the first 2 or three dates just to see how the general rapport goes. Am I doing it wrong? Why don't Shidduchim come with a manual? ARRRRRGGGHGH!
(10/9/2013 6:44:22 PM)
85
EIGHT dates in the same place?????
shidduch dating is a PROCESS and needs to make measurable process each time. You go in with a goal and attain that goal during the date: what is their vision, can I trust them etc. (please read Inner Circle by shaya Ostrow).
So what we have in the article is a relationship that is STUCK and needs a mentor and some decision -making about getting engaged or dropping each other.
I strongly recommend shidduch coaching. Our mashpia can't always help in the details, and should be consulted AFTER the coaching session.
May you all have focused and respectful shidduch dates, and build your homes VERY soon
(11/12/2013 5:41:43 AM)
86
bochur in shidduchim
I pride myself in properly planning and scouting out my dating places. I haven't dated much, but i know that it is important to me, and i want to do it right. Besides it boosts your confidence knowing what you'll do.
it is obvious that phones on a date are a no, no, and i must say quite ridiculous. if a girl i was dating pulled her phone out in the middle of a date, especially the first ones, it would cause me to seriously reconsider her.
of course it seems that the writer here was set up with "resumes" as opposed to friends etc. as the people seem to have been quite unfitting for her.

I BELIEVE THE NEXT ERA FOR SHIDDUCHIM IS "MICRO-SHADCHANIM"
your friends neighbors, and classmates!
(11/30/2013 9:03:13 PM)
87
To #83
While speed dating could work, in theory…. I fail to see, how it is considered tzniusdik. Please, enlighten us.
(2/12/2014 9:23:28 AM)
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