Mar 11, 2009
Dr. Berger Vs. Chabad Shluchim
Yaacov Behrman attended Professor David Berger’s recent lecture at the Center for Jewish History's YIVO entitled "The Lubavitcher Rebbe as Messiah: Turning Point in Judaism?" Following the lecture, bashing Chabad rabbis, Berger was asked "Would you eat from the Kosher supervision of Rabbi Gabi Holtzberg HYD?”
by Yaacov Behrman
Much to my surprise, Prof. David Berger’s recent lecture at Yivo was entertaining, well structured and some of the quotes were even accurate.
It amazed me because I had previously heard Prof. Berger speak on the Zev Brenner Show eight years ago, and back then he sounded disoriented, untrained and extremely boring. I guess, after deprecating and insulting Chabad for so many years, he’s actually getting good at it.
The crowd at Yivo that night consisted mostly of middle class Yiddish speaking secular Jews who, based on their applause, seemingly enjoyed hearing Prof. Berger depict Lubavitch as a radical, unbalanced and delusional sect.
Though Berger fabricated statistics and dishonestly described pamphlets like Nekuda Hachabadi, written mostly by young 19 year old Israeli yeshiva students, as a highly regarded textbook in the Chabad Movement. To his credit, he stayed away from attacking the Lubavitcher Rebbe personally. He kept his lecture focused on the alleged beliefs of members of the movement.
Despite the fact that Berger successfully portrayed the messianic wing of Lubavitch as totally off the charts, he failed to prove how they are even remotely heretical. In view of that, Berger’s conclusion to forbid the eating of meat slaughtered by a Chabad Schochet is totally unsubstantiated.
Jewish theology is not black and white, as Berger paints it. Take for example, the debate on whether the seven days of creation were literally seven human days or the view that each recorded day was actually a millennium. Berger claims that believing the world was created millions of years ago falls within the purview of Torah, but many of Rabbis in Israel disagrees. Some even call it heresy.
Sadly in modern times rabbis are much too quick to categorize others as heretics. It has become a radical destructive trend lately. To be considered a heretic, one has to do more than believe in something untraditional.
Following the lecture, I approached Pro. Berger, and challenged him to name the principal of Jewish faith being transgressed by someone who believes the Rebbe is moshiach. Berger replied “maybe it transgresses Rambam’s principal of belief in moshiach”.
So I said to him, "MAYBE? On a maybe you’re disqualifying the meat eaten all over the world, by tens of thousands of people who’s only source of kosher meat is from their local Chabad Rabbi!"
Berger also proudly informed that he would not eat meat from a cow slaughtered by Prof. Marc B. Shapiro, author of “Maimonides' Thirteen Principles Reappraised”.
So I asked him: “Would you eat from the chickens slaughtered by Hakodosh Gabi Holtzberg HYD?”
To the disgust of the small crowd watching, he shrugged his shoulders implying he would not and walked away.
From your friend Pinchas from Carrol st.
First i am not a meshichist but i do believe in Moshiach these guys do not believe in Moshiach that it is going to be a person, and that's what scares them
if you read there writings you will see that they look at Christianity as something they don't know what,
just from the fact that they are trying to disprove is prove that in there minds it must be something CH'V
so when you take Torah and you try to say that seven days is really billions of years. how can you see Moshiach as a real thing.,
So what do they do because they are looking for legitimacy in the Torah world
Demonize Chabad and those that like the Rebbe and do not like the Chasidim are just a bunch of Liars
this Berger has a paper trail. and anyone who reads his stuff knows he has issues with Torah Mesinai
Even none Mishichistim believe that the REBBE IS MOSHIACH!!!
Berger is a monster that we created by virtue of some of the wild and irresponsible things that some of our fellow Lubavitchers said and did and continue to say and do. It's that simple. Reacting emotionally as most of the posters here are doing does not answer the core questions:
1. Do we believe the Rebbe is Moshiach?
2. Do we believe the Rebbe could be Moshiach?
3. Do we believe the Rebbe will be Moshiach?
4. Do we believe the Rebbe would have been Moshiach?
These are things that we Lubavitchers need to make clear.
As for those of us who say Berger just hates Lubavitch, well, where was he before Gimmel Tammuz? Those who truly hate(d) Lubavitch never lost the opportunity to run their mouths all through the decades. This guy's just raising legitimate questions.
Do you have a name? :)
By "messianic wing," what or who is the author referring to? Someone, for example, like Rabbi Yehudah Kalman Marlow A"H, long-time member of the Crown Heights Beis Din and Mara De'asra of Crown Heights?!
Please clarify.
Number 22 is also correct to say that Berger has bigger issues with Chabad than meshichism. Read his book and you will see. He cites the issues of the diagonal menorah and the square luchos as "indications" that we are a cult. He also cites the Tanya that the G-dly soul is "actually a portion of G-d of above" to indicate that Chabad bichlal is beyond the pale. Tanya precedes meshichsim by seven generations.
He also cites some RY who said that chasidim are ovdei avodah zarah.
Chaim Rapaport's book on the subject, summarized neatly by one of the earlier posts (don't turn everyone into a heretic...) is an excellent read bichlal and the best rebuttal of Berger's claims, many of which are intellectually dishonest.
To answer your "questions" one by one:
1. Do we believe the Rebbe is Moshiach?
Yes we do. If you do not - then you disagree with our Rebbe, as he said very clearly numerus times that the Nasi is the Moshaich (unless for you the Rebbe isn't Nassi, vedal)
2. Do we believe the Rebbe could be Moshiach?
Of course. Read answer 1.
3. Do we believe the Rebbe will be Moshiach?
He IS Moshiach. Learn some Chassidus, see what Moshiach and Rebbe is all about, you won't have any questions.
4. Do we believe the Rebbe would have been Moshiach?
After reading answers 1-3, this question is invalid.
These are things that we Lubavitchers need to make clear.
Kivan Shehoitzei Atzmoi Min Haklal - Kofar Beikar.....
don't play any games with the Rebbe... it's scary
Our dear Rebbe is not Moshiach. He may have been (and if you ever leant the topic you will no there is no way for us to know Moshiach's identity and as the Rebbe said, there is no need to know).
Gabi HY"D was a personal friend of mine. We learnt together and kept in touch after he went on Shlichus. He was no Mishichist!
Even more, he suffered from the mishichist so-called "shluchim" in India who after he tragically passed away were raising $ in his name!
I always knew: someone who does not care about the Rebbe and his image (=mishichistim) is a low life
What you did was very important and you should be thanked for it.
Jew haters must know that we won't let them be. There are times when we are not permitted to say quiet and watch our enemies blemish us in public.
Well done,
A yid from Boston
Lubavitcher chassidim debate last years snow while the derech of Chabad is in meltdown.
His shita was that Judaism rejected the notzri because "we don't believe in a dead Moshiach".
Gimmel Tammuz strained his message and he felt that the continued belief in teh Rebbe as Moshiach was pogea in his koved.
Its as simple as that. Koved. Bigger people in Jewish history than Berger also erred for the same reason.
Since he needs koved, the solution is to give it to him. If he gets enough, he will stop his anti-Lubavitch crusade.
(written by a non-Lubavitcher who was personally familiar with Berger and still clings to the belief (hope?) that the Rebbe will be the Moshiach.
While the author of the article was not among them, and kept quite during the actual lecture, what is more important is that the other Lubavitchers in the audience, when responding to Berger, completely demolished their points (and some were substantial) by their inability to attack Berger personally--and, in one case, the audience itself.
He said (and I paraphrase) that Berger's arguments meant little given that this was a crowd of people "who didn't wear yarmulkas. Not only did he offend the crowd but personally contradicted Lubavitches vaunted belief in inclusivity among Jews.
In the interest of full disclosure, I planned this program. I grew up up with a love for Lubavitch. In my 20's I took a number of courses with Prof. Berger at Brooklyn College. His behavior, his midos nad love for Yiddishkeit were apparent to every Orthodox student who attended his classes. Apparently Y.U. believes the same, and this surely must rankle Lubavitch. If nothing else, Lubavitch has a P.R. problem to deal with . If not, how could Y.U. appoint him Dean of Bernard Revel. In closing, I find it odd that the writer mentions that the crowd was Yiddish-speaking, as though this were some kind shocking, sinful thing. Tell that to every Lubavitcher who spoke Yiddish in Europe and continued to do so here. Ther is no Bundist/Lubavitch divide; Hitler made sure of this.
Finally, as a confused sometimes Orthodox somtimes secluar Jew
(I admit it) I come in contact with many non-Lubavitch Orthodox Jews where I live, in the Upper West Side. And most of these, while not regarding Lubavitch Messianism as a heresy, do find it embarassing at best--like the behavior of an amiable, crazy uncle.
And the more Lubavitch openly manifests its belief in the Rebbe's post-mortem Meshichus and even didvinity (and I have experienced this personally, many times) the greater is the likelihood that Orthodox Jews will dismiss them as a well-meaning but distinct sect.
L'havidil elef alfei havdolos, for many years after Yoshka's existence, a giood number of Jews considered the Christians to be merely an increasingly bothersome sect, at worst. If they really regarded the group as distinct, there would be far more references to him in Jewish writings. I wouldn't be so sure that this will not happen in time.
And this is far more a threat to Lubavitch then to Berger. The program was advertised in every Jewish paper, including the Jewish Press, and on Zev Brenner's radio show. Extensively. So why didn't more Lubavitch show up? I gave every Lubavitcher a chance to ask Berger a meaningful question. Even those who did wound up taking the attack route. And the question regarding the murdered Mumbai sheliach's shechita--just awful, and telling. A malicious red herring. I was embarassed by it. Berger made a perfect, respectful response. That is, no response at all. Finally, the program was originally scheduled for February.
Berger himself postponed it because of Mumbai. He also heard the screams of "Ema," and he knew the parents were killed because they were Jews. So much for his raging antipathy to Lubavitch, his wickedness.
Lubavitch blew it by not showing up. And this was unfortunate.
And, say what you want, that is NOT 160 people in that photo.
To all messianic roaming around the Internet:
Someone wrote:
"Our dear Rebbe is not Moshiach. He may have been (and if you ever leant the topic you will no there is no way for us to know Moshiach's identity and as the Rebbe said, there is no need to know)."
He must not be lubavitch...
The same question, regarding holtzberg, can be asked of lubavitch. Would you now eat the Volover Rov's hechser? ( he's sided with satmar) because his som died in mumbai?
1. In the private exchange to which the post refers, I indicated disagreement with elements of Marc Shapiro's book. I absolutely did not say that i would not eat his shechitah.
2. I greatly admired Lubavitch before the Rebbe's passing. This admiration did not end even when the messianism became evident to outsiders in the eighties and early nineties (even though I was of course unhappy about it, as were many other Lubavitch admirers). No one can point to a scintilla of evidence that contradicts this, and my book points to definitive evidence that supports it..
David Berger.
collive in respect of meshichistm and non, please dont post comments like 28ths
and 29
meshichist is nothing to be embarrased of, its not talking bad of the deceased. its something very good to say
i personally believe that the rebbe shlita is moshiach tzidkeinu and may he come back to us BEKOROV MAMASH!
Not everyone believes the Rebbe is moshiach what in the world are you saying? where do you get that from besides whats your proof that the Rebbe is moshiach the rambam says clearly that in order to be moshiach vadai there are certain conditions and those conditions were not fulfilled yet that doesn mean that the Rebbe cant be moshiach but why are you saying that everyone believes that when its not true at all!!!
Now after the histalkus it is counterproductive to identify him as Moshiach.
People find it the crazed talk of lunatics.
The Rebbe gave us a mission to prepare the world for the Redemption; lets just do our job.
a) No one, including Lubavitchers, can possibly say that the Rebbe was, is or will be Moshiach. There is no redemption yet, nor even the smallest part thereof, so obviously Moshiach “was” not yet and “is” not yet. As for “will be” – how do you know? Moshiach himself, whoever he will be, does not know that yet, as the Rebbe often cited the teshuvah of the Chatam Sofer. On that score Berger is 100% correct, and the Rebbe would be the first to agree with him – as he often stated that Rambam is the final authority on that. Period. (For all you know, “Dovid malka meshicha” – could have been Dovid Berger, except that he disqualified himself with his malicious campaign…) A Lubavitcher who claims that the Rebbe will be Moshiach is simply expressing a personal wish/belief without ANY evidence whatsoever, no different, as one famous Chabad Rav said, than claiming his wife is the prettiest and finest of all women on earth.
b) To cite a prominent Lubavitcher Rav as “evidence” for the”truth” of meshichism is sheer nonsense. Rabonim much greater than Rav Marlow a”h believed in Shabsai Tzvi and were, of course, DEAD WRONG.
c) The question re Holtzberg is indeed a lousy red herring trying to cash in on a purely emotional issue. If he believes the shechitah of a meshichist is possul (of course that is incorrect and I challenge anyone to cite sources to prove otherwise), then if H was a meshichist he would have to disqualify him regardless of his being a kadosh; and if H was not, then he would accept it.
d) No, Lubavitcher should not go to Berger-lectures any more than going to lectures offered by Jews for Jesus. To challenge him (or them) merely entrenches them in their own views and provides them with excuses to spout even more rubbish. It is a violation of Chazal who state explicitly that “da mah shetashiv” does not apply to Jews – depokar tfei (it only makes them worse). Berger is very heavy into protecting his “honor”: note how this busy academic has time to stay up to date with any blogs that mention him, and he will respond there ONLY either to thank his supporters, or to “correct” insinuations against him that would impinge upon his personal honor – NEVER ever to engage in a substantive debate of the real issues. (Typical example of that was the recent exchange on the “Tradition Seforim Blog” where some people really wiped the floor with him.)
The reality is that Berger is compulsive-obsessive in his jihad against Chabad. It is practically impossible for him to admit his errors after lecturing and publishing continuously his distortions regardless how many proofs there are to refute him. For him to admit defeat is to surrender his sole claim to “fame” over the past decade or so, which would psychologically destroy a man with so much sense of self-importance. He thrives on the controversy, that gives him his ultimate “high” and excuses to continue. At this point he is no longer “ma’aleh umorid”, thus the best treatment is to simply ignore him – this would really cut him down to size.