Nov 22, 2012
Shallowness or Plain Rudeness?
Illustration photo by Mendel Meyers

Shidduchim SOS: Why would a mother with an eligible daughter treat a prospective girl for her son with minimal respect?

By anonymous

I am writing this article as anonymous simply so as not to embarrass the woman who inspired it. I feel, however, that this story must be related to all of you with children in shidduchim.

My kids are all married B"H and I am not an official shaddchanis. I am a mother who helps her family and friends in any which way I can with this difficult time.

The frustration and hurt I felt, after the incident I want to tell you about, was great, and I feel for all of you out there who have gone through this too many times and couldn't even voice your anger in case it would "look bad."

A couple of weeks ago I emailed an old friend of a friend, let's call her Rochel, and asked about her son who is a chassidishe boy, sincere and a good learner.

She said he was "busy" and I made a mental note to email again in a couple of weeks. Then she asked who I was suggesting. I answered that I will not share information about a girl while your son is dating another one.

After some time went by, I emailed her again last week, and wonderful, she said "my son is not busy now, so tell me about your idea."

I told her about Mushky, a wonderful, frum, chassidish, slim, lovely and cute girl from a good family that is warm, loving, nice and good people, I told her. Rochel then asked for a resume and picture.

Her mother Chana objected strongly to the moral idea of the picture. She felt that after the boy's family makes some calls and shows interest, then she will try to persuade her daughter Mushky, who was not pleased about the idea of a photo either.

Mushky objected to the idea of a bochur - or his mother - who would say "yes" or "no" based on a photo. She also estimated that the mother would probably not show the picture to her very chassidishe son, but will make her own judgement call.

We emailed the resume without the picture, and asked for a resume of their son as well. A prompt reply came back asking, "where is the picture?"

I explained that the other side felt that after all the inquiries are done and they are interested, a photo can be sent. I figured she would understand as she also has a daughter of her own in shidduchim (for quite a while).

After several days without a response, I contact her again and she notified that, "I thought you would send a picture, and you didn't, and there was another girl who came up, so we are looking into her now..."

Now, I ask you, on how many levels is this all wrong? Is there a question after reading this why we are all in such tzoros with shidduchim?

1. If mothers would stop for one minute and realize that they should treat girls that are suggested for their sons the same way they would like their daughters to be treated, perhaps it would be easier.

2. Everyone is entitled to choose whoever they want or find fitting, but do not make judgment calls based on a photo - especially before making even one phone call to hear about the person's personality and character!

I wish this Rochel luck in finding a shidduch for her son and daughter. I hope she doesn't expect people to show her more respect than what she gives to others.

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Opinions and Comments
1
agreed
and I wish the author much hatzlacha in all her shidduch efforts!

Shidduchim are difficult enough without being ridiculous and rude!
(11/22/2012 4:28:04 PM)
2
oy vey
all i can say is we need moshiach
(11/22/2012 4:29:06 PM)
3
Agreed!
I once got asked for a picture by the boys father! Cuz he knows that his son only wants to date pretty girls.
Its sickening
(11/22/2012 4:29:41 PM)
4
Don't Be Silly!
We aren't living in Nevel anymore. Today, both boys AND girls care about looks - as they have a right to.

a) You are committing to spend your life with someone. You want to like the way the look. This isn't rocket science.

b) The average boy has dated several girls, each multiple times. Do the math. Thousands of dollars of his own money. He simply wants to know her appearance is not a 'definite no' before spending even more.

It's more than okay to ask for a picture, provided you send your own first.

It is certainly the prerogative of the girl to refuse to send a photo. As it's the prerogative of the boy to say, "she is immature" and turn down the date.
(11/22/2012 4:35:57 PM)
5
Send the photo!
Because Shidduchim is so difficult today...don't make it more difficult. I don't see any reason why you should not send a 'family photo', not of the girl alone, but a family photo taken at a recent simcha.
Just to give the other side a feel of the girl and family....nothing wrong with this.
(11/22/2012 4:47:33 PM)
6
to #4
Looks are important, but that doesn't mean a decision should be based on a photo. People look very different in real life. If I would have seen my spouse in a photo before I got dated, I probably would have said no. Looks change when you get to know someone.
By the way, how many boys have asked for girls photos without also showing a picture of themselves?!
(11/22/2012 4:48:29 PM)
7
To #4
Yes, of course, but u know, basing yourself JUST
On a photo is quite ridiculous..
I mean, if the offer sounds great, then dont stick to the picture.
Of course you need to like the way he/she looks,
But i dont think it s right to refuse someone just because ypu didnt see the picture before, anyways you re gonna see the real person on the date, its not that hes gonna wear a mask and youre going to marry someone you dont how he looks.
I am a girl who is almoast at the age of shiduchim,
And i personally think that the outside of a person is influenced very much by the enside. Many times it happens that you meet someone and you dont think that person is particulary beautiful, and after a while you kind of change your mind and realize that that same person looks absolutely wonderful... And this is because she/he has beautiful middos.
At least, thats what happens to me, than you can always disagree.
Thats why i think a picture is not that important, after all
(11/22/2012 4:50:19 PM)
8
I dont see the problem
If you believe in your daughter or son that he or she is a good looking and well taken care of child then you should have no problem sending a picture and asking for one in return if you so wish.

We live in a materialistic world and yes today people sometimes want pictures.

You also may want to think of it as a plus, lets say a boy or girl is looking for something physical in the other, let them see the picture first before wasting your time.

There is nothing wrong with wanting to see a picture, it saves allot of time sometimes.

The parents obviously need to be normal and nice about it and not think others are of less quality, if thats the case then the picture is not the problem its the childs parents that need some fixing.

PS not everyone wants SLIM just btw
(11/22/2012 4:52:26 PM)
9
photos are deceiving
i know something who in real life does not look at all like in her photos. she has her photos touched up and is very photogenic. i also know someone extremely good looking who comes out awful in pictures. beauty is on the inside too and is also different in the eyes of each beholder.
(11/22/2012 5:01:54 PM)
10
TO # 7
I am a bochur who is almost at the age of shiduchim and i was really touched to read something that reflects on such depth of character.
Beauty lies in the eyes of the beholder.
(11/22/2012 5:07:33 PM)
11
mother
I think that everyone is making a big deal about nothing. The boys mothers are bombarded with names. After a while one can't see the trees from the forest. A photo tells more than pretty, thin. It tells about the person. A photo is a look into who the person is. I find it important for both the boys side and the girls.
(11/22/2012 5:10:53 PM)
12
Practical
Nothing wrong with the first date being via Skype, espesially if there is travel involved
(11/22/2012 5:11:00 PM)
13
The girl who won't give a picture is the immature one!!
Why then don"t we then make phone dates, if looks don't count? And by the way , a picture defines a personality too...not just beauty, for those intuitive mothers...
(11/22/2012 5:11:16 PM)
14
why are people so picky
i dont understand. if these two were to be together anyway what would be. if they were to send a photo of the bochur it would not change the opinion. plus who cares if he may not have the perfect muscle tone. does that really make somebody husband or father material if he is muscular or fit.will that help him raise his children better. not the same with the girl. who cares if she is slim she will make a good mother and a good wife. all that really matters is chemistry and being able to raise a chassidishe family
(11/22/2012 5:16:34 PM)
15
stupid
a mother of a boy, or a girl in shiduchim might want to see a picture just to get a sense of who the person is- not necessarily to pick the :"fairest in the land", but to get the energy and personality of the personas seen in the face. normal people base decisions on the looks as well as what they hear about a person, as well as who the family is, etc.
stop being so stupid about this
(11/22/2012 5:17:31 PM)
16
Opposite happened to me...
A mother was looking into my daughter, and I heard from a few of our references that she had called them. As well, this mother told one of the people she called that she has only heard wonderful things and is very happy about what she is hearing about my daughter.
2 weeks after getting her resume, the mother asked for a photo. All her research was done and now she wanted a photo. We sent it (even though our daughter is pretty, she isn't very photogenic) and, lo and behold, the answer came back that they are not interested.

I disagree completely with the author of this article in that IF photos (some girls are gorgeous and NOT photogenic) are so important to a mother, she SHOULD ask for the photo FIRST!!
DO NOT BOTHER OUR REFERENCES IF YOU WOULD SAY "NO" BASED ON A PHOTO!

Of course, the author is right, in that the fact that mothers (and boys) are "varfingzach" with great girls, just because of a photo, is a sad state of affairs and a sign that we are living in shallow times.

May ALL the wonderful, chassidishe, great girls out there, find their match with boys that appreciate all their qualities!!!
(11/22/2012 5:33:14 PM)
17
Plain Shallowness!
If they insist on a photo, they are plain shallow people and you have your answer they are not for this family that insist on not sending the photo. It's just not a good Shiduch from the onse they are way more refined and healthy. May we hear only Simchos very soon!!
(11/22/2012 5:38:43 PM)
18
My story beats this one!
How about the mother who called me about a friend's daughter (I was a reference.) At the end she asked, in all seriousness, if THE MOTHER is fat!!!! I was taken aback but I asked her (not knowing her own dress size, which I subsequently found out is considerable, which makes it even more bizarre) what difference it makes, her boychick wasn't interested in marrying mom.

Her answer? "Girls can get fat after they get married & I want to know if she'll be like her mother." My advice to mom was don't touch this one (she listened B"H.) PS daughter got married, has a family B"H & is STICK THIN. HA!

The point is, this obsession with superficiality is nauseating. When I first started with shidduchim a picture was never asked for. Now, with my younger children, it's the norm. It's wrong. My kids aren't models, but B"H all are so happily married (their spouses are fatter, thinner, tall & short, blond, redhead & brown haired. who cares, everyone is a diamond. ) And watch out for Facebook...you can see a lot more of these kids than you want to, so I suggest people start purging their facebook accounts.
(11/22/2012 5:38:51 PM)
19
To the author and to the readers
I very much relate to what you wrote.

In my personal opinion - I think that overall the so called shidduch crisis is due to our social conditioning. We either want tall boys, or want slim girls, other's want long feet size and the list may go on...

To number 4 who said that looks matters - well maybe you are right if you want your marriage to last for 18 months to 3 years. But if you are looking for a long term relationship - think about what she will look like when she is 80 or when he is 70??? does looks really matter then?

Think about the nature of the person - the values - the ethics = these are what matters most. Will he respect you? Will she be a great mom to your kids? Will he be faithful? Will she support her husband's decisions? - are both willing to sacrifice their needs for the other? If not - forget about it- you are better off getting married to yourself. You can always please yourself and never get into arguments with yourself. So you are better off staying alone. The only way for a long term relationship to work - is if you forget about the external and start focusing on what matters - once you are able to do that - then that is a sign that you are seriously ready to get into a long lasting and loving relationship.

With that being said. Let me ask you something that I encounter a lot.

Does it matter if the guy was previously married?
Does it matter if she has kids?
Does it matter if she is slightly overweight?
Does it matter if he is a little younger than her?

The list can go on and on - and you will see how unfortunately in our social conditioned mentality, we are so blinded by what really are the important things that we should be looking at. Think about all the things that can change, think about all the things that can be worked on and developed, think about if you are compatible with each other in term of chassidishkeit, Yiddishkeit, Chinuch, outlook, Goals, Values, Ethics = these are what makes a Shidduch successful - Finally, everyone needs to keep in mind to Communicate - this is what people should really be concerned about and looking into when going out.

Until this doesn't change, there will be what is considered a "Shidduch Crisis"!

I wish you all lots of Hatzlacha in each and everyone of your journey's.
(11/22/2012 5:41:24 PM)
20
Personally
I really try to understand the people who don't feel it's right to send a picture.

At the same time, I could state about myself, that any information you tell me about a bochur doesn't mean anything to me until I see a picture of who we're talking about - it tells me a lot about personality.

Chochmas Adam Taer Panav.
(11/22/2012 5:46:46 PM)
21
Agree
I have a beautiful daughter in shidduchim and said the same thing when asked for a picture. I will email a picture only after the other side looks into her enough and wants a picture after they like everything they hear. I will not send a picture first thing. Nothing wrong with wanting to marry someone pretty or handsome, but beauty is in the eyes of the beholder.
(11/22/2012 5:50:50 PM)
22
YOU ARE WRONG!
First of all who do you think you are to make shiduchim? and i don't mean thins in a blaming tone. I mean are you a therapist? you are a judge in character and know what type of personalities are good for each other? the age number is rising and i am here to convince the other singles to marry who and when you want to! enough of you bubbies and "shadchonim" taking our inocent lives just bc you are a GREAT male of fee male YENTE!!! just bc u rattled of a bunch of "NICE" stuff in which YOU HAVE NO CLUE of what is really going on in those "PERFECT" houses you think they should JUMP?!?!?! what is this a REAL ESTATE DEAL you think you are selling? i can tell you countless friends that have all been put together by a guy in ch that made HUNDREDS of shidduchim and ALL i say ALL my friends wish they wouldn't have kids!!!, yes that's whats going on... u see someone you feel they are a good character from a photo or at someones house or yes EVEN WALKING ON KINGSTON! then you date them PERIOD.
(11/22/2012 6:28:04 PM)
23
To #20
If you want to see a picture just to get an idea, I hear you.
However, photos can truly be misleading so to make a decision based on a pohto is to be foolish and using the Torah. Go and see PANAV for yourself!!
(11/22/2012 6:30:14 PM)
24
skype #12
People look terrible on skype!
(11/22/2012 6:34:44 PM)
25
A non shallow 27 year old guy
a lot of great points made here, 19 is right, but different people have different ideas.. I wouldent care if she was older or divorced etc..but deff must be attracted to her..

Am I going for looks only ? 100% not! But as much as I focus on the person, Id need to be attracted to them.

Either way I get no date offers, which is ok by me, mildly insulting due to the reason I dont get these offers but its life.. :)
(11/22/2012 6:38:31 PM)
26
Nothing Wrong
I am very good at picking up the personality from the picture, and that's why I insist on a picture. I know what my son needs, and can see it in the picture - so far I've always been right. I understand fully that not all pple are photogenic, so I don't pay much attention to the looks, but if I could save myself time from looking into shidduchim that are not suitable, it's worth it. I would find it insulting to reject a girl based on the picture after the other side knows that we already looked into her - so to save them embarrassment, if someone wants me to look in first, before the picture - I look for someone else. .
(11/22/2012 6:38:56 PM)
27
To #22 SORRY YOU DON'T MAKE SENSE!!!!!!
You are making it soud like this guy in CH FORCED them to get married, if they dated each other and are unhappy now they must take the blame NO ONE ELSE!!!!!!!!!!!

What makes you think that if you saw someone on KINGSTON Avenue and liked them, that you will be happier to have kids.
(11/22/2012 6:39:13 PM)
28
A non shallow 27 year old guy - follow up
P.S. im not chasidish at all, im working on being a sincere honest jew, in touch with below and above..
(11/22/2012 6:41:36 PM)
29
Number 22 sounds very angry
but i have no idea what he is trying to say. Calm down, take a breath, wipe a way the spittle, and then try again. Of course everyone could and should try to make a shidduch. Even in the outside world and lehavdil the goyishe world it happens all the time (she must meet my nephew - he is the nicest guy) etc. Shidduchim have been going on for thousands of years, some work out better than others. Usually if they are two responsible decent people, they work out their differences, and figure out how to make it work, even if it were not the 'best' match. this too has been going on for 1000s of years even by goyim.

Chill.
(11/22/2012 6:46:27 PM)
30
meet the boy/ girl and parents b4
like they do in the litfisher world! how ridiculous is it that we send our kids out with total strangers and we most times don't meet the family ( or boy/girl) until they are already engaged!
my daughter is 16 kah and will not be getting engaged until my husband and I have met with the boy several times ( and met with the parents). I was engaged b4 I married my husband and was lied to by the shadchan, they guy was the biggest con artist and when I broke my engagement the same people who told me I got a gr8 guy, told me I had a lucky escape!!! so dear guys/ girls ( I have wonderful sons too bh) and his parents , Ive got a fabulous kids bh and if u want them it's my way or the high way!!!
(11/22/2012 6:47:00 PM)
31
You want to get married? Give a photo!
Big deal, give a photo.
Trying to hide something?
Or just unrealistic?
Do you or don't you want to get married?
Next time, just make it clear from the start that you are looking for a boy who does not own a camera or has bad eyesight.
(11/22/2012 6:51:02 PM)
32
this is not nice
i am sorry but it is not nice for the author to get so upset with a fellow Jew based on this matter. And if you are so upset, speak openly to the person about it instead of writing this op ed which really does not make a very clear point.
I see nothing wrong with requeting a photo. Think of the children perspective. Many kids keep dating people that are totally not for them and they really get discouraged and depressed. A photo often helps to eliminate certain people that mamash would not be an eligible match and it prevent wastage of time, energy, money and emotional hurt. of course I agree shidduchim should not be based ONLY on a photo. But a photo can be helpful and should not be shunned entirely.
(11/22/2012 6:56:28 PM)
33
be honest with yourselves
and you'll admit the photo thing is just goyish. you ask is a girl or boy nice looking but c'mon this is mamesh like a goyishe dating service. shame on those of us old enough to know better but who allow standards from magazines not fit for our homes to seep in.
(11/22/2012 7:00:32 PM)
34
To Author
"She also estimated that the mother would probably not show the picture to her very chassidishe son, but will make her own judgement call."
I'm sorry, but you are wrong! I can guarantee you that the son wants the picture!
In my humble opinion, you are in the wrong .
(11/22/2012 7:08:09 PM)
35
What a load of...
If you don't want to send a picture, fine. It's your right. However, don't blame the other 95% of people who knowledge that whether you like it or not, looks matter. Get out of your bubble.
Oh, and yes the "chassidish boy" is still a boy. He wants the photo.
Stop wasting peoples' time, and if you do, don't blame THEM!
(11/22/2012 7:15:14 PM)
36
Wrong
When you're wrong you're wrong. You are the one being rude. ALL BOYS WANT PHOTOS! stop wasting their time!
(11/22/2012 7:18:54 PM)
37
so cute
LOL number 7 and 10 can get marrried
(11/22/2012 7:21:28 PM)
38
Denial ain't just a river in Egypt.
Looks count! If you want to help the girl, get her picture.

On another note, the idea of only sending the picture after she says yes to the profile... That is the worst idea I ever heard. You want to put the boy in the position where he has to say "I like you, but not your looks".
Really really sad... YOU ARE the Shidduch crisis.
(11/22/2012 7:24:57 PM)
39
Parents Just Ask Yurself
Did you see a photo of your perspective spouse before you dated. Are you happily maried looking for Shiduchim for your children???!!!!
(11/22/2012 7:28:04 PM)
40
Beauty is temporary
but ugliness is permanent
(11/22/2012 7:29:11 PM)
41
Could not be more wrong!
Pictures are important! You are wasting everyone's time, and enforcing the belief that "pictures are for shallow people".
Help the girl and yourself, and get her picture.
(11/22/2012 7:30:22 PM)
42
pic
come on! such a big deal for a pic!
give me a break!
if they ask you,send the pic
why you should start fighting even before you are mechutonim!
(11/22/2012 7:34:57 PM)
43
No big deal
To send/ see a picture.
(11/22/2012 7:38:42 PM)
44
She is rude?
She is the polite one. She doesn't want the girl to know that she was turned down based on looks. How would the girl feel if after the said yes to the profile, they got turned down based on the photo?
You have a head, use it. You sound like the rude one to me.
(11/22/2012 7:41:05 PM)
45
Pathetic
Every one wants a photo! It's not just boys, and not just "this rude mother". You are soooooo naive, it's actually quite sad.
(11/22/2012 7:48:08 PM)
46
Don't Be Right, Be Smart.
You are entitled tor what you want or think, but it doesn't matter to somebody else. If you want to meet somebody, you will have to do what they want, if not, they just wont meet you.

Even if you think you're right, and you may be, but that doesn't matter, if you want something from somebody you have to comply with their requests.

Writing this article won't help anybody, you have to start using your common sense, and stop moaning and groaning and start taking other people's requests into consideration.
(11/22/2012 7:56:09 PM)
47
To #44 YOU MISSED THE POINT
You don't turn someone down based on a picture, you go and meet the person!!!
(11/22/2012 7:57:37 PM)
48
Listen Here
Please get real. Today's generation have no problem in finding a picture of your son or daughter on facebook either easily or through a friend, so before facebook wrecks the chance of the shidduch, send a decent picture of your child, and leave the rest to Hashem
(11/22/2012 8:01:21 PM)
49
The mother is right.
Looks are a factor to any boy. No wait, any boy who isn't blind. You, the girl's mother, and the girl are in denial, or stubborn, or lazy. Stop wanting people's time!
(11/22/2012 8:05:07 PM)
50
To answer you question, it's rudeness.
On your part!
(11/22/2012 8:07:20 PM)
51
Author is way wrong!
I'm a girl, and YES WE WANT PICTURES TOO! That's just how it works. Don't blame the mother.
(11/22/2012 8:08:51 PM)
52
Values Not Aligned
It seems like the families have completely different values. No judgements, though I am more like the girl's family. Looks are obviously VERY important to the boys side, and to the girl, she is more concerned with the match itself. There are beautiful girls who are not sending pictures. Doesn't sound like their values would be aligned.
(11/22/2012 8:28:20 PM)
53
meeting
It was rude and disrespectful especially to move on without a few calls. BUT the whole method of reasearch that is done is unnatural- to not know how someone looks even and to expect a young person to go out based on research only without the parents and/or child having met the prospective match in a more natural setting first. I a a parent (not at that stage yet) jut can't imagine subjecting my child to that. Seeing aperson in realy life gives a LOT of information beyond research (which is necessary too).
(11/22/2012 8:32:46 PM)
54
old man
i am dateing and i see pics all the time .....when u go out to meet ........they dont look like there pics ..... any way so whats the big fuss ?
(11/22/2012 8:44:08 PM)
55
Really don't agree
It's a good thing you don't work as a full time Shadchan, because you have no idea what you're doing. Pictures are important, and they save time.
(11/22/2012 9:08:33 PM)
56
nonsense
You are a being an idealist on peoples' expense. Get over yourself.
(11/22/2012 9:10:16 PM)
57
to #40
lol thats a really good status for my email
(11/22/2012 9:18:04 PM)
58
Do you want to be right or married?
Girls to frum normal boy racio is is like 5 girls to every boy. Get the picture?
(11/22/2012 9:27:37 PM)
59
Inaccurate
Boys will be boys. Even Chassidish boys. You are misinformed my good lady.
(11/22/2012 9:50:49 PM)
60
Anon
From my 20 plus years of experience, in helping people to find their zivugim, I can honestly say that I have made many times that it took up to four or five dates for the boy to come back to his parents and say that he thinks that the girl is "nice looking".

This is because the"appetite comes with the eating"sometimes.

There are times that a boy and girl meet and in the beginning he doesn't finsd her very attractive, but after he sees a bit of the beauty of the inside of that girl, she thinks she is very attractive.
i think this is a very important point that parents should discuss with their kids.
(11/22/2012 9:58:55 PM)
61
disgusted from experience
To the person who wrote "the boys are being bombarded, so after a while you can't tell the trees from the "forest". This attitude is a huge part of the problem. The mothers think that because there are so many girls who are "desperate", they could be totally and completely not mentchlich. And to all all those who think they can afford to be selective beyond any reason because they you were told "your son is the best boy in lubavitcher", just remember todays special very quickly becomes yesterdays left overs. A little while ago I called a mother to suggest a shidduch for her daughter. Yes, a girl. And an older one at that. I was calling from overseas. I worked around than hours that would suit this woman, at my own inconvenience. The woman listened politely, and said she'd need a few days to think about if and look into it. Duh. I did not expect her to give me an answer on the spot. To make a long story short, this woman never returned my calls, never bothered returning my messages. And if course, never ever bothered getting back to me. I was disgusted by this lack if common decency. And this was for her daughter. There is nothing wrong with saying "thanks for thinking of us, but we do not think that this is for us". AND those mothers should just know what a name they get for themselves or their families. Nobody wanted to deal with them. Word spreads quickly. AND this most certainly is not helping the shidduch crisis.
(11/22/2012 10:10:24 PM)
62
Plain and simple.
People are entited to whatever they want. If they want a picture tough luck on you. You dont like it lump it! Bochurim should not be parading down and wasting gelt only to meet somebody they would have never went out with becuase they werent the slightest bit attractive. Be fair to bochurim as well. This is not meant to be blunt but theres 2 sides to every coin
(11/22/2012 10:17:39 PM)
63
agree 30
It's insane to think I would EVER send my kid out with someone and support them getting engaged before meeting them and getting to know them a tiny bit- and looks are of course just part of the picture- not unly/gorgeous, but literally when you meet someone and talk to them face to face you get a feeling for that person. Sometimes you see right away something is off or a misamatch. Of course research is necessary- there could be something you are missing. And then longer dating and hopefully mature young people who are actually ready to get married can help prevent ambushes... I see that there could be a problem with the parent thinking they get to make the decision for their kids- true that hould be avoided, but to meet a couple times for a few minutes and look each other in the eye and see how a person carries themselves is invalueble.
(11/22/2012 10:32:11 PM)
64
#7&10
maybe you 2 should meet eachother
(11/22/2012 10:47:07 PM)
65
shiduchim
I don't c anything wrong by asking for a picture,what is there to hide?yes, it's the boy's or the gir's choice to decide if they like the look or not.from my exprianceif I won't like someones look and he could b the greatest person i won't go out with him /her.
(11/22/2012 10:50:23 PM)
66
nothing new
I am BH married 38 years and my parents went to 770 to see the bochur and my mother in law had someone point me out to her in shul... People today are so dramatic ...making a fuss and writing hundreds of opinions about nothing. There is your problem right there
(11/22/2012 11:00:45 PM)
67
k seriously...
this woman thought this was rude and put it on. no need to bombard her with your unwanted comments. everyone has their own opinion!
(11/22/2012 11:03:00 PM)
68
GRuB!
I hear both sides and understand that it is very helpful to see a picture, yet it is not comfortable for a girl to send one. BUT, I have one thing to say: People are just not shy anymore! It is just plain old GRUB to ask outright for a picture. You want to see his/her looks? understood. but figure out how to see them. it's not too difficult these days. People really lost their sense of sensitivity and I think that asking for a picture is a bit much.
(11/22/2012 11:18:41 PM)
69
Presentation is important ...
I am a shadchanis....notice what the author wrote about the girl "wonderful, chassidish, frum, SLIM, LOVELY, CUTE." ...what about her character traits? Why complain about a picture when you've described her looks and nothing else substantial? Presentation is important but it's not everything. That's why when I notice a boy keeps refusing girls I ask for an explanation. After 8 refusals I asked a boy what the problem was with a particular girl who happened to be very presentable. He said he didn't want to date her because she works in an office.That didn't sit well with me. Well...after having an in-depth conversation i got to the reason behind his excuse which was that he had an overwhelming fear of rejection and really was not sure what to look for in a girl. If a girl wants to be matched based on her midos, character traits, and values then she should have a thoroughly descriptive profile. If her profile looks like the above description it's no wonder the photo has so much value. And the same goes for what kind of person is being sought out ...how often do we see "I am looking for a mentch"?
(11/22/2012 11:31:33 PM)
70
Every bochur
cares about looks, to varying degrees.
Its biological.
(11/22/2012 11:33:12 PM)
71
א חסידישה בחור
א חסידישה בחור
(11/22/2012 11:33:29 PM)
72
larry
I find people in CH to be rude in general
(11/23/2012 12:02:14 AM)
73
ok
i think its totally normal to ask for picture! i mean, would you want your son coming home with some overweight-akward girl??? like evryone has right to. eitherway i think its totally the looks tht count. like obviously inside to, she has to be sweet,nice, good middos, etc. but a pretty girl is definitly one of the top on the list
(11/23/2012 12:05:58 AM)
74
to #41
nowadays pics can be photoshopped to look different .
maybe we should have pics of girls in their bathing suits?
maybe she has blemishes or stretch marks? or other clothe enhancers
(11/23/2012 12:44:42 AM)
75
comment 69 is
right!!
(11/23/2012 12:45:17 AM)
76
LOL
Shidduchim sos always gets the most comments!!
man ppl can just go on forever with their opinions haha
(11/23/2012 12:45:46 AM)
77
CRISES OF SHIDDUCHIM
yes we are asking constantly to exchange pictures, I said loud and clear couple pictures, not only the face but the full body to see of course her shapes and G-d Forbid she shoudn't be heavy.
Even a chassidish bochur will be running to see the pic. It will make the job easier and will cut the cost of dating...so remember our boys need a lot of money to date and NOT THE GIRLS...Hatzlocho rabba to all!!!
(11/23/2012 12:50:51 AM)
78
The couples shouldn't be seeing each other's pictures....
instead send the prospective couple pictures of each other's parents and grandparents. After all, those are the faces the couple will be looking like and AT in less time than you'd think !
(11/23/2012 1:07:01 AM)
79
DEAR COLLIVE!
You guys can become shadchonim. keep up the good work!

ps. a bochur at the age of shidduchim.
(11/23/2012 2:22:34 AM)
80
"Eyes are the window to the soul "
Don't be so quick to judge others and make a public issue on your assumptions . Maybe she wanted to see your soul and personality which is written on your face . Besides beauty in women is praised and mentioned many times in Torah . Every yidishe girl has the potential to be beautiful . If you feel ugly don't have a grudge on everyone else and make your husband and kids suffer do something about it ! Exercise , eat healthy . Give up all the processed fatty unhealthy food and garbage called Nash unfit to be eaten . Brush your teeth get a good haircut .
A shiduch for you or your child isn't a game or a shlichus were you accept everyone . Ther is only one and it has to be forever ! A look at someone's face tells a lot more about the person than their friends biased reference . People used to only do shiducihim with hose the knew . In my day lubavitch was so much smaller and less international . People have a right to see who they are suggesting their child meet and possibly marry
It was your choice . She asked to see a picture . You refused .
Someone else had no issue and sent the picture .
Obviously you are not suited for that family .why play victim . As noble as you. Feel your ideals are. It's not for them . Surely you will find someone with the same ideals who prefers not to have a picture
Don't cry victim be grateful you didn't have to waste time and emotional energy on going out with someone that clearly is not for you
Besuros tovos speedily and easily
(11/23/2012 3:35:08 AM)
81
Shulchan Aruch Says: (Even ha-Ezer 21:3)
מותר להסתכל בפנויה, לבדקה אם היא יפה שישאנה, בין שהיא בתולה או בעולה, ולא עוד אלא שראוי לעשות כן

"It is permissible to gaze at an unmarried woman to determine if she is attractive, in order [to decide whether] to marry her, whether she is worthy or not, and moreover it is fitting to do so."

There -- so perhaps it is actually best to see a photo first!

Secondly, if you don't provide a photo, there's Facebook/Google, and your daughter's photo(s) will be seen regardless, so do her a favor and make sure that this bochur sees a nice photo of her first -- before all the unphotogenic ones.

Thirdly, its only, "natural" that bochurim want to date models if they've been seeing models all the time in movies (or worse -- Hashem Yishmor). High time that bochurim quit watching movies all the time so that they can, "be attracted" to regular healthy young ladies.

Lastly, its high time that Bochurim/young ladies (no they aren't, "girls!") actually start basing their relationship based on Torah based values -- not some foolish notion concocted by some friend/shadchan.

Which reminds me why I've essentially sworn off dealing with shadchanim, however much they have, "suggestions." To quote Groucho Marx, "I don’t care to belong to any club that will have me as a member".
(11/23/2012 4:15:26 AM)
82
to #19
"Does it matter if the guy was previously married? Does it matter if she has kids?" Absolutely! Unless, of course, you are a divorcee who is dating, and then the case is different.

Does overweight matter? Actually, for someone like me it does. That doesn't mean that I wanted someone stick thin; it does mean that I do not like obesity, do not want to live with it, and do not want it passed to my kids. Maybe I'm wrong for judging people based on their weight? Maybe. But it's not that I avoid overweight people (I have a few friends who are overweight); it's just that at some level, it disgusts me, and I knew that I couldn't live with a spouse who was overweight. (BTW, my MIL asked my chassan if I was anorexic. I'm not, I just don't put eating at the top of the priority list.)

And does it matter if he's younger than her? No, as long as he is just as mature as she is. There's a reason that most boys are older than the girls they marry, especially if they marry young: Boys take longer to mature. If he's mature, and this factor is irrelevant,then it is irrelevant. If he is 19 and she is 20, she may well find herself married to an immature teenager - unless he's extraordinarily mature for a 19 year old.

Re a picture - If you have to ask for a picture, then you should be sending one as well. But maybe if you ask for a picture, you shouldn't be suggested any more shidduchim?
(11/23/2012 4:37:51 AM)
83
#7 and #10
I agree with #37 and #64, I think you should meet each other.
(11/23/2012 4:41:06 AM)
84
To #73
You are an idiot. If you want to know how she looks, date her. Especially since I can guess that there's about an 85% chance you aren't so good-looking yourself.
(11/23/2012 4:42:21 AM)
85
Dear mothers
If you want to see their pictures just go on Facebook that's all
(11/23/2012 5:11:11 AM)
86
good advise
My shadchan will only exchange photos when she has received photos from both sides. Even if the other side didn't request a photo.
(11/23/2012 6:30:51 AM)
87
whats the big deal
there could be a lot of reasons for a picture. one good example is if you have to travel and spend a lot of money getting to a date. then only to come to find to your horror that the person your meeting is NOT something you could see your self living with. I have asked and have been asked for a picture. I dont think anything is wrong with that. and if they dont like the way you look do you really think chances of it going past one date are good? I think people make too much of it. especially when you probably could get a picture of the person on line very easily anyway.
(11/23/2012 7:49:27 AM)
88
to 81
At the time the Shulchan Aruch was written, I'm sure there were no pictures. That's what dating is for. When you date, look at the other person. But sometimes beauty comes not from the face but from the heart. The midos and actions of the girl/boy say more than any picture can.
(11/23/2012 8:28:14 AM)
89
Group Dating
If they are old enough to get married and live as adults they should be allowed to socialize in a less stressful environment. I don't see why we can't have singles gather and mingle.
(11/23/2012 9:14:41 AM)
90
oy vey!!!
people..relax.........
its normal to ask for a picture? afterall you do need to be attracted to the person...
(11/23/2012 9:41:47 AM)
91
to 89
I or YOU don't see anything wrong but the Torah might are YOU willing to surrender your position to the Torah's possition.
Just wondering if you ever thought about the fact that maybe the Torah has a different oppinion !!!
(11/23/2012 9:53:18 AM)
92
What happened to old fashioned way?????
A picture does not tell the whole story...
The way it's always been done in my family, is simple..
to check a boy out, the father goes to 770and checks the boy out. For girls, usually find out a wedding that she'll be by. You can see alot more about a girl or boy like this. When we had an out of town shidduch, parents drove a few hours to meet the prospective girl before they went out. For five minutes... turned around came back home....
obviously can't be used in all shidduchim, but there are sometimes relatives or friends who can help...
(11/23/2012 9:59:22 AM)
93
photo shop[ed
you can change a photo today if a person if fat you can make them thin and there though who go on facebook to look G-D help us
(11/23/2012 10:10:45 AM)
94
to #74
Yes that exactly what #41 said... It's real easy to make any point sound bad by stretching what they say to an extreme. It's also a childish tactic.
(11/23/2012 10:19:21 AM)
95
i agree with #89
It's high time we allowed the singles to mix socially in a public, tznius, facilitated manner.
Now THAT would save thousands of dollars in unnecessary dates and perhaps after speaking for a few minutes, an 'overweight' girl will be found attractive after all and vice versa.
(11/23/2012 11:21:03 AM)
96
Its a boys market
Im a 26 year old bochur in crown heights. With my experience in Shidduchim it is clear to me that it is a BOYS MARKET when it comes to shidduchim. It's like the economy right now. It's an Employers market. It's not rude. It's just reality. Doesn't make it pleasant or easy. But it's how things are right now.
"stay calm and carry on"
-Winstom Churchill
(11/23/2012 4:31:14 PM)
97
Hi its me #7
Hey #10
look how many shadchanim we got here ;)
(11/24/2012 1:10:53 PM)
98
a picture is worth a thousand words
everyone should have a facebook page!!
(11/24/2012 2:45:30 PM)
99
Seeing "the bigger picture"
i mean like does anyone think there is a right or wrong to this?
whom are we to judge...sometimes, asking for a picture is right on place!
(11/24/2012 3:12:39 PM)
100
Irony
It's ironic that you post this article this week, when in this weeks Parsha it talks about Yacov Avinu being attracted to Rochel because she was a 'Yefas Toar, Vifas Mareh'.
(Ein Mikrah Yotzeh Midei P'shutoi).
So if you conclude that marrying for looks is shallow, then what is your opinion of Yacov Avinu?
(11/24/2012 6:21:30 PM)
101
Resume and a photo?
What is this, a JOB INTERVIEW? It can't be, job interviews do not request a PHOTO (unless it's the entertainment industry). Also, why did she describe the girl as "wonderful, frum, chassidish, SLIM, lovely and cute" What what what? Why this horrible emphasis on SLIMNESS, couldn't she just say HEALTHY.

I have 5 married sons and 3 married daughters and none of them had to go through any of this mishugoss.
(11/24/2012 6:49:01 PM)
102
to #10
you last line is so very powerful

yes the saying goes "beauty is in the eyes of the beholder"

yet you (possibly a typo) worte it so very powerful
(11/24/2012 6:59:12 PM)
103
To #100
Wait a sec so youre tryin to say that yaakov married rochel ONLY for the fact that she was beautiful??
So now the question is not, what do other people think, but what you think of yaakov avinu....
Gotta look in to it better my friend
(11/24/2012 7:13:03 PM)
104
photo
i think its ok to have a photo, just dont judge on it. people can look much different in real life then a photo
(11/24/2012 8:01:33 PM)
105
Judging character by a photo? Crazy!
I understand it's written in seforim that you can tell the pnimius by the panim, but I don't believe this means that a photo will do the entire job. My daughter lent out her senior yearbook to mothers with sons. One mother was looking for a refined, sensitive girl and selected four girls to check out, based on their photos in that yearbook. My daughter came to me, laughing! "This mother believes strongly in her ability to judge character by a picture, but she's waaay off!" she told me. "The girls she chose are grub, insensitive, selfish girls, but they all had pretty pictures..." Yes, the character of a person may shine on their face when you get to know them somewhat, but people are fooling themselves if they think one glance at a photo alone will unlock many secrets of the personality!
(11/24/2012 8:07:27 PM)
106
???
if u dont want to send a photo dont send one, but i dont think its rude to ask for one...
(11/24/2012 9:05:49 PM)
107
The woman just snap from the ezras nashim.......
For the woman it's not such a big problem to get a photo of the boy just go up to the woman gallery in the shul.
But who go's to the woman Gallery to take photos that's why it's only on side complaining for photos.....
Especially in 770
(11/25/2012 12:05:22 AM)
108
Sent a picture then got rejected
The boy's mother checked ALL the references and was impressed. Then asked for a picture. I sent it. Next day got a "No!" THAT IS RUDE!!! The boy's mother rejected ONLY because of the picture! My daughter may not be a super model, but she is not bad looking at all. THAT is true RUDENESS!!!
(11/25/2012 12:08:52 AM)
109
To 35, 36
and all the other people who think that all boys want photos.
I've got news for you - I'm a shidduch age bochur, and I think that a boy who wants to see a photo before agreeing to go out is shallow - I specifically don't want to see a photo.
(11/25/2012 12:08:59 AM)
110
So whats wrong for a photo in the first place
So whats wrong for a photo in the first place if you only judge by a photo then send it and they will tell you strait out NO
And of they don't judge only by looks then send them a photo as that will only help as a side point
(11/25/2012 12:52:08 AM)
111
What a good match
I assume that those who make a big deal out of a photo are a good match and so to by those who don't a big deal
So... That's your first step if that's your type
So.. COL did a good job in Differentiating in 2 types of people
(11/25/2012 1:00:10 AM)
112
Different people have different needs
My handsome son didn't care to see a photo, and never looked at one. I, on the other hand, needed it in one case b/c when I asked if the girl looked put-together (we never asked if she's pretty, etc.), people seemed to hesitate. So after all the references checked out great, I asked for a pic for myself. The girl's liveliness and sweetness as I saw it in the pic, reassured me. They're married now, and she is truly a rare jewel of a girl. Not a great beauty queen, but a fabulous catch for my son, and I hope they'll be happy for 120 yrs.
My daughter, on the other hand, is meticulous about her appearance, goes to the gym, etc. and is very particular about looks. She knows middos come first, but she's not someone who can wait till a boy's looks "grow on her." We checked out a boy, everything sounded good, then she "accidentally" by hashgacha protis saw a pic. He was very sloppy and very heavy. My daughter burst into tears that the shadchan could think of someone like that for her. (I actuallyh think the shadchan didn't know what he looked like, and only knew the boy's father.) So this girl needs a photo or else a close friend she trusts to say he's decent looking. I say, when it comes to pics, live and let live.
(11/25/2012 1:17:01 AM)
113
You are so right #112
U fit nice with #111
(11/25/2012 1:35:20 AM)
114
Isn't both the best
So mrs #112 even though שקר החן והבל היופי is it great to get a אשה יראת ה׳ and good looking for some say why only look at the outside?
But what if you want both?
So why do shadchanim say you can't get both? For they say that most that are Pretty aren't really a אשה יראת ה׳ for they are focusing on attraction?
So dose that mean it dose not exist to get both?
(11/25/2012 1:43:48 AM)
115
84 got it right
I am a single girl dating and I obligingly send a photo when asked, but I don't like or agree with it.

People! heard of photoshop? because really a picture is just capturing a moment, not a person. after all we are marrying pictures not people, right?

I once got a photo of a good looking guy, but after 5 phone calls there were so many red flags, he wasn't so good looking after all.

Instead of photos, perhaps enhance your profile to describe yourself better. If there are no red flags, 2 dates never killed anyone and what you see in a photo you may forget about when you're actually talking to the person and v.v.
(11/25/2012 9:24:15 AM)
116
terrible
its almost as bad as girls who demand to know a guys financial portfolio
(11/25/2012 11:15:33 AM)
117
to 108
Thank Hashem that you got a "No!" from them, it's a blessing in disguise.
(11/25/2012 5:49:02 PM)
118
strange
what is the picture for? I never saw a pic of my wife before we went out and honestly i think if i saw a pic i wouldn't have found it especially attractive or "my type" but she looks beautiful to me now!!
(11/25/2012 7:31:57 PM)
119
it usual
for my experience. when other side refuse send picture it ALWAYS problem. because really it only reason to not send photo. I'm professional photographer in past, and many times when i get pictures, i clearly understand, that photo was taken many years ago. same story w b/w picture, & photoshop pictures. but i truly believe, (and sorry imho is it main reason for shiduchim sos) that shadchanis itself simple stupid, low educated lady(haam haaretz) that use situation for selfimportance
so let study from hilonim dating sites. most accounts include standard phrase- NO PICTURE-NO ANSWER.
P.S ALSO TODAY ALMOST ALL HAVE ACCOUNT IN SOME SOCIAL NETWORK, MANY FAMILY'S HAVE ONLINE ALBUMS (LIKE IN PICASA, so simple link it)
p.s.s sone of my frend in Haifa, cant come to hiz frend wedding, so when he return, from trip, he come to see video. and immideaty ask about some nice bahura. now it very nice frum mishpuhe with beautiful daughter. thats all
(11/25/2012 9:57:36 PM)
120
Not-so-mainstream dater
I am not a young dater and therefore have been open to different types of dating. A boy who was suggested by a friend once called me, and after a 5 min phone call asked for a photo. Understand that he had already had time (over 2 weeks) to do research, and from my understanding had in fact done some. At this point it was understood on both ends that he was calling to have a quick chat and formally set up a date. So I politely (perhaps somewhat challengingly) responded to him that he had ample time to do research, as I had done, and if he wanted to find out what I looked like, or even secure a photo, he could have. But that I don't send out photos of myself to guys. I also told him to feel free to postpone our talking again/potential meeting till he could do more research or get a photo of me. I didn't care either way. I would not change my mind and give a photo, but I did point out to him that he had called me without first seeing a photo. And no one had pushed him to do so. So I challenged him and said "whats the worst thing that could be? We meet and you're not attracted to me? No problem. Then at least you know, and maybe we know friends better suited for each other. And, who's to say I'll be attracted to you?". After this conversation he was even more intrigued to meet. And there were no qualms about looks on my end, it was the fact that he asked me and couldn't do his 'dirty work' (or homework...) discreetly, before the conversation. An insensitivity that mothers and/or their sons should be taught to steer away from.
(11/25/2012 10:21:02 PM)
121
Voice of experience: A POINT LEFT OUT
When I went on shidduch about 15 years ago, I refused all requests for my photo (then, photos were only sometimes requested).
Out of all the bochurim I met (before meeting my bashert), no one's feedback (via the shadchanim) after the shidduch had any issues with my looks.
I had nothing to hide by refusing a picture.
It's just that I did not want a man who prejudged whether or not to go out with me by my looks.
More women should hold this value near and dear.
My chossan and I are attractive, even these years later, but that's not the point: I held out for men who didn't need a photo first, and I'm very glad I did.
(11/26/2012 1:57:47 PM)
122
To #121
Good point i agree
(11/26/2012 5:10:15 PM)
123
yes its shallowness
and yes, its also rudeness.
its actually insulting too!
and plain grob- for those of us who consider ourselves 'deeper'.
but hey- theres a whole world out there that lives for looks- so if both the boy and girl are on that page- good for them- but if one is and one isn't...drop it cuz probabely theres a lot more differences to them that will be difficult....
(11/27/2012 12:21:27 AM)
124
so wt?
u call that disrespect ? wt,s wrong with asking for a pic?
(11/27/2012 1:55:34 AM)
125
wt about kingston ave?
turning kingston av into a fashion show,every day of the year, and every year more and more and (almost) forcing and harassing people and especially men and bocchurim to look at you (many) "frum" women in my opinion is way worse than asking for a picture of a girl you are supposed to date...
(11/27/2012 2:04:59 AM)
126
a picture? sure. but ...
B"H

When my daughters were in shidduchim I always sent a picture if requested. One of my girls was insistent that the boy send a picture also. But get this ...

A potential machatainiste asked what my daughter's size was in specific areas. I told her I didn't think it was shiach, that is, the shidduch.
(11/27/2012 7:55:37 AM)
127
once heard..
I once heard the girl is Slim but not thin!... what does that mean. send a picture but don't put everything into it, it is one consideration in the entire package
(11/27/2012 10:01:35 AM)
128
why
why do u need a photo? u just go out and see in real life!
(11/28/2012 10:46:14 AM)
129
My opinion
Once someone gives a photo, they are usually judged on how they look. This should never be the case but it is. If you just leave it to real life to get to know the person, you wont need a photo!
(11/28/2012 4:27:32 PM)
130
agree with 128!
so true
(11/28/2012 7:34:31 PM)
131
If it's done in the right way it shouldn't be a problem
And if the bochur was at a simcha where this girl was would you also refuse to point her out, if he asked which one she was?

Just as you expect his family to find out a bit about her before they meet so too he can ask about what she looks like.

Who's to say that he's basing his decision on the photo alone? He just wants to know what he's getting into. He'll see her on the date anyway, and he could also say it's a no-go because of her looks. This way it saves you all some time and effort.
(12/4/2012 2:52:19 PM)
132
WEAR VEILS ON THE DATES
So, when's it alright to know what each other look like? Perhaps both of them should wear veils on the first few dates so that they can't base any decisions on what the other party looks like?!

I can understand not wanting to send a photo by email, but a printed photo could be shown to the other party before the meeting.

If the girl had never had a photo taken before then she could shy away from it, but that's clearly not the case.
(12/4/2012 2:58:42 PM)
133
Shadchan
B"H
Are you looking for a shidduch? Do you know someone that is? Focus on building a Jewish home with your soul mate. If you are interested, please send a current shidduch profile, a picture and a contact number to getmarriedthisyear@gmail.com
(12/12/2012 4:51:28 AM)
134
To "Shadchan" #133
Forgive me, you sound like you're either trying to be funny or are a shadchan for those so naiive that they would actually send personal information to some unknown snakeoil salesman/woman. Shadchanim,too, should be researched; and while we're at it, some of them need to be told that it's O.K. to display a modicum of refinement even as they cut to the chase.
(12/16/2012 11:58:29 PM)
135
Normal Mom... I think.
I only ask for pictures because I can't get what I REALLY want... to see the prospective date in person! What I'm actually interested in can't be captured by a resume or a photo: smile, eye contact, warmth, chein. A picture is a poor substitute, but until it becomes normal in our community to meet the girl or boy in question, we are stuck. I could have saved my own children, and other people's lovely children, lots of wasted time and emotional energy if I could have had a short conversation before the kids went out.
(12/20/2012 7:44:42 PM)
136
Psychotherapist
Looks aren't the only criteria in matchmaking but are certainly a reality. It would make sense if both parties shared photos so both men and women could view perspective dates.
(2/17/2013 9:30:15 PM)
137
Spare the Girls Feelings
However shallow it may be to ask for a photo, better to send one ahead of time, then have a daughter go through a date and think it went fine, only to discover it didn't because the bochur wasn't attracted. If a boy or his family turns down a potential match based on a photo alone, then maybe it's just not meant to be.
(3/8/2013 12:51:06 AM)
138
yes this is wrong
one or a few pictures can't capture who a person really is and they will find out what the other looks like on the date itself so why is a picture before even necessary?
(9/4/2014 11:44:19 AM)
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