Nov 22, 2012
Shallowness or Plain Rudeness?
Shidduchim SOS: Why would a mother with an eligible daughter treat a prospective girl for her son with minimal respect?
By anonymous
I am writing this article as anonymous simply so as not to embarrass the woman who inspired it. I feel, however, that this story must be related to all of you with children in shidduchim.
My kids are all married B"H and I am not an official shaddchanis. I am a mother who helps her family and friends in any which way I can with this difficult time.
The frustration and hurt I felt, after the incident I want to tell you about, was great, and I feel for all of you out there who have gone through this too many times and couldn't even voice your anger in case it would "look bad."
A couple of weeks ago I emailed an old friend of a friend, let's call her Rochel, and asked about her son who is a chassidishe boy, sincere and a good learner.
She said he was "busy" and I made a mental note to email again in a couple of weeks. Then she asked who I was suggesting. I answered that I will not share information about a girl while your son is dating another one.
After some time went by, I emailed her again last week, and wonderful, she said "my son is not busy now, so tell me about your idea."
I told her about Mushky, a wonderful, frum, chassidish, slim, lovely and cute girl from a good family that is warm, loving, nice and good people, I told her. Rochel then asked for a resume and picture.
Her mother Chana objected strongly to the moral idea of the picture. She felt that after the boy's family makes some calls and shows interest, then she will try to persuade her daughter Mushky, who was not pleased about the idea of a photo either.
Mushky objected to the idea of a bochur - or his mother - who would say "yes" or "no" based on a photo. She also estimated that the mother would probably not show the picture to her very chassidishe son, but will make her own judgement call.
We emailed the resume without the picture, and asked for a resume of their son as well. A prompt reply came back asking, "where is the picture?"
I explained that the other side felt that after all the inquiries are done and they are interested, a photo can be sent. I figured she would understand as she also has a daughter of her own in shidduchim (for quite a while).
After several days without a response, I contact her again and she notified that, "I thought you would send a picture, and you didn't, and there was another girl who came up, so we are looking into her now..."
Now, I ask you, on how many levels is this all wrong? Is there a question after reading this why we are all in such tzoros with shidduchim?
1. If mothers would stop for one minute and realize that they should treat girls that are suggested for their sons the same way they would like their daughters to be treated, perhaps it would be easier.
2. Everyone is entitled to choose whoever they want or find fitting, but do not make judgment calls based on a photo - especially before making even one phone call to hear about the person's personality and character!
I wish this Rochel luck in finding a shidduch for her son and daughter. I hope she doesn't expect people to show her more respect than what she gives to others.
Shidduchim are difficult enough without being ridiculous and rude!
Its sickening
a) You are committing to spend your life with someone. You want to like the way the look. This isn't rocket science.
b) The average boy has dated several girls, each multiple times. Do the math. Thousands of dollars of his own money. He simply wants to know her appearance is not a 'definite no' before spending even more.
It's more than okay to ask for a picture, provided you send your own first.
It is certainly the prerogative of the girl to refuse to send a photo. As it's the prerogative of the boy to say, "she is immature" and turn down the date.
Just to give the other side a feel of the girl and family....nothing wrong with this.
By the way, how many boys have asked for girls photos without also showing a picture of themselves?!
On a photo is quite ridiculous..
I mean, if the offer sounds great, then dont stick to the picture.
Of course you need to like the way he/she looks,
But i dont think it s right to refuse someone just because ypu didnt see the picture before, anyways you re gonna see the real person on the date, its not that hes gonna wear a mask and youre going to marry someone you dont how he looks.
I am a girl who is almoast at the age of shiduchim,
And i personally think that the outside of a person is influenced very much by the enside. Many times it happens that you meet someone and you dont think that person is particulary beautiful, and after a while you kind of change your mind and realize that that same person looks absolutely wonderful... And this is because she/he has beautiful middos.
At least, thats what happens to me, than you can always disagree.
Thats why i think a picture is not that important, after all
We live in a materialistic world and yes today people sometimes want pictures.
You also may want to think of it as a plus, lets say a boy or girl is looking for something physical in the other, let them see the picture first before wasting your time.
There is nothing wrong with wanting to see a picture, it saves allot of time sometimes.
The parents obviously need to be normal and nice about it and not think others are of less quality, if thats the case then the picture is not the problem its the childs parents that need some fixing.
PS not everyone wants SLIM just btw
Beauty lies in the eyes of the beholder.
stop being so stupid about this
2 weeks after getting her resume, the mother asked for a photo. All her research was done and now she wanted a photo. We sent it (even though our daughter is pretty, she isn't very photogenic) and, lo and behold, the answer came back that they are not interested.
I disagree completely with the author of this article in that IF photos (some girls are gorgeous and NOT photogenic) are so important to a mother, she SHOULD ask for the photo FIRST!!
DO NOT BOTHER OUR REFERENCES IF YOU WOULD SAY "NO" BASED ON A PHOTO!
Of course, the author is right, in that the fact that mothers (and boys) are "varfingzach" with great girls, just because of a photo, is a sad state of affairs and a sign that we are living in shallow times.
May ALL the wonderful, chassidishe, great girls out there, find their match with boys that appreciate all their qualities!!!
Her answer? "Girls can get fat after they get married & I want to know if she'll be like her mother." My advice to mom was don't touch this one (she listened B"H.) PS daughter got married, has a family B"H & is STICK THIN. HA!
The point is, this obsession with superficiality is nauseating. When I first started with shidduchim a picture was never asked for. Now, with my younger children, it's the norm. It's wrong. My kids aren't models, but B"H all are so happily married (their spouses are fatter, thinner, tall & short, blond, redhead & brown haired. who cares, everyone is a diamond. ) And watch out for Facebook...you can see a lot more of these kids than you want to, so I suggest people start purging their facebook accounts.
In my personal opinion - I think that overall the so called shidduch crisis is due to our social conditioning. We either want tall boys, or want slim girls, other's want long feet size and the list may go on...
To number 4 who said that looks matters - well maybe you are right if you want your marriage to last for 18 months to 3 years. But if you are looking for a long term relationship - think about what she will look like when she is 80 or when he is 70??? does looks really matter then?
Think about the nature of the person - the values - the ethics = these are what matters most. Will he respect you? Will she be a great mom to your kids? Will he be faithful? Will she support her husband's decisions? - are both willing to sacrifice their needs for the other? If not - forget about it- you are better off getting married to yourself. You can always please yourself and never get into arguments with yourself. So you are better off staying alone. The only way for a long term relationship to work - is if you forget about the external and start focusing on what matters - once you are able to do that - then that is a sign that you are seriously ready to get into a long lasting and loving relationship.
With that being said. Let me ask you something that I encounter a lot.
Does it matter if the guy was previously married?
Does it matter if she has kids?
Does it matter if she is slightly overweight?
Does it matter if he is a little younger than her?
The list can go on and on - and you will see how unfortunately in our social conditioned mentality, we are so blinded by what really are the important things that we should be looking at. Think about all the things that can change, think about all the things that can be worked on and developed, think about if you are compatible with each other in term of chassidishkeit, Yiddishkeit, Chinuch, outlook, Goals, Values, Ethics = these are what makes a Shidduch successful - Finally, everyone needs to keep in mind to Communicate - this is what people should really be concerned about and looking into when going out.
Until this doesn't change, there will be what is considered a "Shidduch Crisis"!
I wish you all lots of Hatzlacha in each and everyone of your journey's.
At the same time, I could state about myself, that any information you tell me about a bochur doesn't mean anything to me until I see a picture of who we're talking about - it tells me a lot about personality.
Chochmas Adam Taer Panav.
However, photos can truly be misleading so to make a decision based on a pohto is to be foolish and using the Torah. Go and see PANAV for yourself!!
Am I going for looks only ? 100% not! But as much as I focus on the person, Id need to be attracted to them.
Either way I get no date offers, which is ok by me, mildly insulting due to the reason I dont get these offers but its life.. :)
What makes you think that if you saw someone on KINGSTON Avenue and liked them, that you will be happier to have kids.
Chill.
my daughter is 16 kah and will not be getting engaged until my husband and I have met with the boy several times ( and met with the parents). I was engaged b4 I married my husband and was lied to by the shadchan, they guy was the biggest con artist and when I broke my engagement the same people who told me I got a gr8 guy, told me I had a lucky escape!!! so dear guys/ girls ( I have wonderful sons too bh) and his parents , Ive got a fabulous kids bh and if u want them it's my way or the high way!!!
Trying to hide something?
Or just unrealistic?
Do you or don't you want to get married?
Next time, just make it clear from the start that you are looking for a boy who does not own a camera or has bad eyesight.
I see nothing wrong with requeting a photo. Think of the children perspective. Many kids keep dating people that are totally not for them and they really get discouraged and depressed. A photo often helps to eliminate certain people that mamash would not be an eligible match and it prevent wastage of time, energy, money and emotional hurt. of course I agree shidduchim should not be based ONLY on a photo. But a photo can be helpful and should not be shunned entirely.
I'm sorry, but you are wrong! I can guarantee you that the son wants the picture!
In my humble opinion, you are in the wrong .
Oh, and yes the "chassidish boy" is still a boy. He wants the photo.
Stop wasting peoples' time, and if you do, don't blame THEM!
On another note, the idea of only sending the picture after she says yes to the profile... That is the worst idea I ever heard. You want to put the boy in the position where he has to say "I like you, but not your looks".
Really really sad... YOU ARE the Shidduch crisis.
Help the girl and yourself, and get her picture.
give me a break!
if they ask you,send the pic
why you should start fighting even before you are mechutonim!
You have a head, use it. You sound like the rude one to me.
Even if you think you're right, and you may be, but that doesn't matter, if you want something from somebody you have to comply with their requests.
Writing this article won't help anybody, you have to start using your common sense, and stop moaning and groaning and start taking other people's requests into consideration.
This is because the"appetite comes with the eating"sometimes.
There are times that a boy and girl meet and in the beginning he doesn't finsd her very attractive, but after he sees a bit of the beauty of the inside of that girl, she thinks she is very attractive.
i think this is a very important point that parents should discuss with their kids.
Its biological.
maybe we should have pics of girls in their bathing suits?
maybe she has blemishes or stretch marks? or other clothe enhancers
man ppl can just go on forever with their opinions haha
Even a chassidish bochur will be running to see the pic. It will make the job easier and will cut the cost of dating...so remember our boys need a lot of money to date and NOT THE GIRLS...Hatzlocho rabba to all!!!
ps. a bochur at the age of shidduchim.
A shiduch for you or your child isn't a game or a shlichus were you accept everyone . Ther is only one and it has to be forever ! A look at someone's face tells a lot more about the person than their friends biased reference . People used to only do shiducihim with hose the knew . In my day lubavitch was so much smaller and less international . People have a right to see who they are suggesting their child meet and possibly marry
It was your choice . She asked to see a picture . You refused .
Someone else had no issue and sent the picture .
Obviously you are not suited for that family .why play victim . As noble as you. Feel your ideals are. It's not for them . Surely you will find someone with the same ideals who prefers not to have a picture
Don't cry victim be grateful you didn't have to waste time and emotional energy on going out with someone that clearly is not for you
Besuros tovos speedily and easily
"It is permissible to gaze at an unmarried woman to determine if she is attractive, in order [to decide whether] to marry her, whether she is worthy or not, and moreover it is fitting to do so."
There -- so perhaps it is actually best to see a photo first!
Secondly, if you don't provide a photo, there's Facebook/Google, and your daughter's photo(s) will be seen regardless, so do her a favor and make sure that this bochur sees a nice photo of her first -- before all the unphotogenic ones.
Thirdly, its only, "natural" that bochurim want to date models if they've been seeing models all the time in movies (or worse -- Hashem Yishmor). High time that bochurim quit watching movies all the time so that they can, "be attracted" to regular healthy young ladies.
Lastly, its high time that Bochurim/young ladies (no they aren't, "girls!") actually start basing their relationship based on Torah based values -- not some foolish notion concocted by some friend/shadchan.
Which reminds me why I've essentially sworn off dealing with shadchanim, however much they have, "suggestions." To quote Groucho Marx, "I don’t care to belong to any club that will have me as a member".
Does overweight matter? Actually, for someone like me it does. That doesn't mean that I wanted someone stick thin; it does mean that I do not like obesity, do not want to live with it, and do not want it passed to my kids. Maybe I'm wrong for judging people based on their weight? Maybe. But it's not that I avoid overweight people (I have a few friends who are overweight); it's just that at some level, it disgusts me, and I knew that I couldn't live with a spouse who was overweight. (BTW, my MIL asked my chassan if I was anorexic. I'm not, I just don't put eating at the top of the priority list.)
And does it matter if he's younger than her? No, as long as he is just as mature as she is. There's a reason that most boys are older than the girls they marry, especially if they marry young: Boys take longer to mature. If he's mature, and this factor is irrelevant,then it is irrelevant. If he is 19 and she is 20, she may well find herself married to an immature teenager - unless he's extraordinarily mature for a 19 year old.
Re a picture - If you have to ask for a picture, then you should be sending one as well. But maybe if you ask for a picture, you shouldn't be suggested any more shidduchim?
its normal to ask for a picture? afterall you do need to be attracted to the person...
Just wondering if you ever thought about the fact that maybe the Torah has a different oppinion !!!
The way it's always been done in my family, is simple..
to check a boy out, the father goes to 770and checks the boy out. For girls, usually find out a wedding that she'll be by. You can see alot more about a girl or boy like this. When we had an out of town shidduch, parents drove a few hours to meet the prospective girl before they went out. For five minutes... turned around came back home....
obviously can't be used in all shidduchim, but there are sometimes relatives or friends who can help...
Now THAT would save thousands of dollars in unnecessary dates and perhaps after speaking for a few minutes, an 'overweight' girl will be found attractive after all and vice versa.
"stay calm and carry on"
-Winstom Churchill
look how many shadchanim we got here ;)
whom are we to judge...sometimes, asking for a picture is right on place!
(Ein Mikrah Yotzeh Midei P'shutoi).
So if you conclude that marrying for looks is shallow, then what is your opinion of Yacov Avinu?
I have 5 married sons and 3 married daughters and none of them had to go through any of this mishugoss.
yes the saying goes "beauty is in the eyes of the beholder"
yet you (possibly a typo) worte it so very powerful
So now the question is not, what do other people think, but what you think of yaakov avinu....
Gotta look in to it better my friend
But who go's to the woman Gallery to take photos that's why it's only on side complaining for photos.....
Especially in 770
I've got news for you - I'm a shidduch age bochur, and I think that a boy who wants to see a photo before agreeing to go out is shallow - I specifically don't want to see a photo.
And of they don't judge only by looks then send them a photo as that will only help as a side point
So... That's your first step if that's your type
So.. COL did a good job in Differentiating in 2 types of people
My daughter, on the other hand, is meticulous about her appearance, goes to the gym, etc. and is very particular about looks. She knows middos come first, but she's not someone who can wait till a boy's looks "grow on her." We checked out a boy, everything sounded good, then she "accidentally" by hashgacha protis saw a pic. He was very sloppy and very heavy. My daughter burst into tears that the shadchan could think of someone like that for her. (I actuallyh think the shadchan didn't know what he looked like, and only knew the boy's father.) So this girl needs a photo or else a close friend she trusts to say he's decent looking. I say, when it comes to pics, live and let live.
But what if you want both?
So why do shadchanim say you can't get both? For they say that most that are Pretty aren't really a אשה יראת ה׳ for they are focusing on attraction?
So dose that mean it dose not exist to get both?
People! heard of photoshop? because really a picture is just capturing a moment, not a person. after all we are marrying pictures not people, right?
I once got a photo of a good looking guy, but after 5 phone calls there were so many red flags, he wasn't so good looking after all.
Instead of photos, perhaps enhance your profile to describe yourself better. If there are no red flags, 2 dates never killed anyone and what you see in a photo you may forget about when you're actually talking to the person and v.v.
so let study from hilonim dating sites. most accounts include standard phrase- NO PICTURE-NO ANSWER.
P.S ALSO TODAY ALMOST ALL HAVE ACCOUNT IN SOME SOCIAL NETWORK, MANY FAMILY'S HAVE ONLINE ALBUMS (LIKE IN PICASA, so simple link it)
p.s.s sone of my frend in Haifa, cant come to hiz frend wedding, so when he return, from trip, he come to see video. and immideaty ask about some nice bahura. now it very nice frum mishpuhe with beautiful daughter. thats all
Out of all the bochurim I met (before meeting my bashert), no one's feedback (via the shadchanim) after the shidduch had any issues with my looks.
I had nothing to hide by refusing a picture.
It's just that I did not want a man who prejudged whether or not to go out with me by my looks.
More women should hold this value near and dear.
My chossan and I are attractive, even these years later, but that's not the point: I held out for men who didn't need a photo first, and I'm very glad I did.
its actually insulting too!
and plain grob- for those of us who consider ourselves 'deeper'.
but hey- theres a whole world out there that lives for looks- so if both the boy and girl are on that page- good for them- but if one is and one isn't...drop it cuz probabely theres a lot more differences to them that will be difficult....
When my daughters were in shidduchim I always sent a picture if requested. One of my girls was insistent that the boy send a picture also. But get this ...
A potential machatainiste asked what my daughter's size was in specific areas. I told her I didn't think it was shiach, that is, the shidduch.
Just as you expect his family to find out a bit about her before they meet so too he can ask about what she looks like.
Who's to say that he's basing his decision on the photo alone? He just wants to know what he's getting into. He'll see her on the date anyway, and he could also say it's a no-go because of her looks. This way it saves you all some time and effort.
I can understand not wanting to send a photo by email, but a printed photo could be shown to the other party before the meeting.
If the girl had never had a photo taken before then she could shy away from it, but that's clearly not the case.
Are you looking for a shidduch? Do you know someone that is? Focus on building a Jewish home with your soul mate. If you are interested, please send a current shidduch profile, a picture and a contact number to getmarriedthisyear@gmail.com