Aug 4, 2012
You're not Gezhe?!
Illustration photo by Yossi Percia. The pictured have no connection to the article
Illustration photo by Yossi Percia. The pictured have no connection to the article

Op-Ed: When it comes to shidduchim, we need to look at what's most important. To simply to "Lift up our eyes and see."

By Rabbi Motty Lipskier

"The maidens of Jerusalem would dress in borrowed white garments so as not to embarrass those who had none. They would dance in the vineyards and what would they say? 'Young man, raise your eyes and see what you choose for yourself. Do not pay attention to beauty, pay attention to family. Sheker hachein v'hevel hayofi, a woman who fears Hashem shall be praised.'"

(Mishnah end of Taanis)

At first glance, this sounds like the perfect plan: the young women wear dresses which do not represent their wealth, or social standing, and the men are able to focus on their inner, more important qualities. But is the plan as wonderful as it seems?

The men are specifically instructed to consider their potential mates' families, but what about those young women who do not have scholarly and illustrious ancestors? Are they still on equal footing with their counterparts?

Moreover, we learn from the Braisa that beauty was emphasized more than we may think. "What did the beautiful maidens say? Pay attention to beauty, for a wife is primarily for beauty."

So it seems that after all the "equalizing," the young women were still being judged for things completely out of their control: beauty and lineage. And in public no less! Is this the way to treat a young woman, especially at a time when she has the potential opportunity to meet her soul mate?

Why bother giving the impression that this will be the perfect setting for each young woman to be judged entirely on her own merits, when in actuality many will be humiliated? How did the Jewish leadership of the time allow such insensitivity?

Family Matters

In 1975 the Rebbe explained one word in the Mishnah which shed new light on its meaning.

The word used is family, not parents or lineage. And family, in a broader sense, refers not just to a person's biological relatives, but to his or her circle of influence.

According to the Gemara, a person who teaches Torah is considered to have "fathered" his student, and in this week's parshah Rashi explains that the mitzvah of "v'shinantam levanecha - you shall teach your children" actually refers to a teacher and his pupils. Teachers, educators, mentors and friends can all be considered family by providing us with the necessary environment and influence to become the people we want to be.

So the maidens were in fact saying: don't just look at our yichus, our biological family or lack thereof. Pay attention to our family, look at our upbringing, our education and environment. We may not have had illustrious grandparents, but our parents raised us with the highest level of education and family values.

Or, we may not have dedicated parents, but we have good educators, mentors and friends who give us the love, support and family environment that we need. And as a result, we have been able to develop our own qualities and are fully capable of building new Jewish homes, regardless of our lack of yichus.

You're Beautiful

The Torah teaches that physical beauty is usually a reflection of inner beauty, to the extent that the Torah attributes a child's beauty to the parents' sanctity during relations. And inner beauty - fine character and spiritual sensitivity - is the result of being brought up well.

So the young women mentioned in the Braisa were actually saying: If you notice physical beauty, know that we have good parents, and therefore a good family and upbringing. If you notice inner beauty, know that this too is a result of good family, even if not biological. We have made sure to surround ourselves with positive influences.

As a young child of five or six, the Mezritcher Maggid and his mother watched their home burn to the ground. The young boy attempted to comfort his weeping mother- "Don't worry mother, Hashem will replace this house with a better one."

But his mother explained, "My dear son, I'm crying not for the house that's burning down, but for our family's document of lineage (shtar yichus) which has been consumed by this fire. Now our yichus has been lost forever."

Hearing this, the young boy was quick to reassure her, "Don't worry mother, a new line of yichus will begin with me."

Family Today

There are many people today who lack traditional yichus but have surrounded themselves with excellent, G-d fearing mentors, educators and friends, and are beginning their own line of yichus. So when it comes to shidduchim, we need simply to "Lift up our eyes and see."

We need to look at what's most important: a spouse who possesses the desire and the tools to bring up a beautiful, warm and loving Jewish family. And when we look at the people around us, let's make sure to notice who their real family is, and let's be open to the possibility that we may be the family that they need.


Rabbi Motty Lipskier is the founder the director of The Beis Medrash of Crown Heights. To receive his weekly dvar torah in your inbox, email thebebeismedrash@gmail.com.


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Opinions and Comments
1
Beautiful article!
Beautiful! Well said!
(8/4/2012 6:05:04 AM)
2
beautiful. chazak ve'ematz
(8/4/2012 6:54:15 PM)
3
Touched
What a beautiful article! It should be widely circulated.
(8/4/2012 8:26:16 PM)
4
EXACTLY!!!
well written
(8/4/2012 9:38:10 PM)
5
I like!
Most beautiful and worthwhile "oped" I've ever read on col.
Kayn yirbu
(8/4/2012 9:49:43 PM)
6
this is not the problem
The problem is that ppl in the frum world marry for other reasons then what is best to sustain a RELATIONSHIP nothing to do w geshe or not! it can be how much the boy learned.. or other things that have NOTHING to do with a marriage!! ppl talk about these things bc the ppl that u aske are all armatures or not in the right frame of mind to give an opinion about the character of another person.
Yes i agree BT"s should stick with other BT's and work on their self esteem. I have so many clients that all they want to discuss is this issue!! i dont blame the BT's for not having a healthy self esteem (yes even those that think that if they all group together and move to Canada or make their own shul in CH) geshe is a personality and BT's have their fair personality PERIOD! - no different then a boy not wanting a girl that is extremely loud or fat. their is nothing that has to be changed about ppl considering a BT -- U want your son to come home complaining about his wife's BT cholent she made??

Therapist
(8/4/2012 9:59:16 PM)
7
so true and beautifully written!!
(8/4/2012 10:10:39 PM)
8
Lechaim
Very nice! :)
(8/4/2012 10:20:31 PM)
9
to #6
For a therapist, your grammar, english and overall point of view is absolutely deplorable. And what's with the complex on BT's?
The article is excellent, and not just some baseless opinion piece that we so often read these days.
(8/4/2012 10:41:35 PM)
10
Therapist? More like "The Rapist"
People who knock BTs are usually just looking for excuses to feel good and cover their own self-esteem holes.

Why don't you analyze the fact that most BTs are more dedicated and honest and emesdik than you so-called "Gezhe" who rely on "my dad used to believe so that makes me cool".

You are accountable for your own deeds. If your dad was a great person and you were terrible, you're still responsible for your deeds. Think on that
(8/4/2012 11:04:31 PM)
11
Great words
I just hope that this article will open the eyes of many people who are looking into wrong priorities
(8/4/2012 11:05:13 PM)
12
an admirer
Motty is a real pnimiyus'dike person who has real values.
May you be matzliach in your shlichus here in CH

a secret admirer from OT, 1998

(8/4/2012 11:22:39 PM)
13
to number 6
BTS have made some of the best chollent ! And the idea of a bal teshuvah is a much higher level then "getzeh"/tzaddik ! Its the diff between Ban and MAH ! Don't be so foolish and make as if your a therapist etc , you don't understand or know the begining of therapy !
(8/4/2012 11:24:54 PM)
14
to 6
the problem is when the parents care about "gezhe" and the kids doesnt. and no its not always about a "gezhe personality" (which sorry, is usually a stuck up personality) but about "holier than thou" and will the last name look right.
It's not fair to not look into someone- even a regular lubav ffb, just becasuse his/her grandparents were not in samarkant.
(8/4/2012 11:40:13 PM)
15
Amazing article
What a fantastic article, you definitely are a product of your amazing parents (may your father have a lichtege gan eden).
Your mother is a very successful Shadchan and respecttful of every person that comes to her.
(8/4/2012 11:41:12 PM)
16
BT cholent
BT's dont know how to make cholent and they have tuna fish on a shabbos table
(8/4/2012 11:48:37 PM)
17
Mazal Tov
So beautifull and brilliantly written. How true is this, and if it was true then how much more so now. This is so important to spread arounfd!
(8/4/2012 11:52:57 PM)
18
response to #6
If you really are a therapist, you're a disgrace to your profession. You write in such an insensitive fashion, putting down people unnecessarily. Many people rely on their yichus because they have nothing else to show, as human beings. A similar thing to people who are very wealthy. In shidduchim, people gravitate to what they are used to. This is why families usually marry families, who are similar to them.
(8/5/2012 12:07:11 AM)
19
from a gezhe father
When i dated i knew i would not marry gezhe. Most bored me, were shallow, or with terrible middos. Boruch Hashem, I found my non-gezhe wife and together we will raise kids i can be proud to call gezhe.

to my fellow gezhe - raise your kids with middos. Most gezhe bochurim and girls today are the bottom of the barrel.
(8/5/2012 12:22:09 AM)
20
TO 16
You've evidently had limited exposure to BT Shabbos tables, because I've had my fair share of excellent cholent at BT homes. I think you should gain some more exposure. And in any event, this is all completely irrelivant to the main point of this eloquently penned article, to which I agree with completely and really appreciate seeing in fine print by such a leading authority as Rabbi Lipskier. Thank you!
(8/5/2012 12:26:25 AM)
21
to 6
Ok I agree that most gezhe do have a certain personality, but you can still find kids of bts that have that too. I know some bts that you would think they are Shemtovs!
(8/5/2012 12:32:22 AM)
22
To #6
I know your English is not very well however i AM able to read between the lines and understand what you are saying. I guess im smart. (probably bc im GEZHE)
(8/5/2012 12:54:20 AM)
23
#6 dear therapist
Dear therapist who has an ax to grind against B.T's. Why don't you print your full name so all of your bt clients know how you really feel about them.
(8/5/2012 12:56:05 AM)
24
There are lots more types of lubabs then just gezhe and bts...
I feel bad for all those out there that are pushed into a shidduch by friends, mothers, shadchanim any kind of pressure ,
there should be a kosher ,chassidish way for people to find a shidduch of there choice, period!
are we frummer then the children of the Kohen Godel?
(8/5/2012 12:59:39 AM)
25
agree with 6
some gezhe dont want to marry bt's for whatever reason it is.
dont blame shiduch crisis on this. there's enough bt bochrim for bt meidlach!!
(8/5/2012 12:59:55 AM)
26
When looking for a shidduch....
Remember the following rule;

If your father is poor, it's your fate; if your father-in-law is poor it's your stupidity!

(8/5/2012 1:24:23 AM)
27
can not believe
i cant believe it you are fighting over cholent!!!!
(8/5/2012 1:34:24 AM)
28
to # 16
grow up! you have some serious soul-searching needed!
(8/5/2012 1:45:38 AM)
29
Mazel Tov 770
Finally someone can stand up and talk, a Big Yasher Koach Rabbi Lipskier, continue your articles we want to read on shidduchim, how to accept each other with no gezzha attitude, money or name of the family JUST FOR WHO YOU ARE!!
but unfortunately when it comes into MAASSE FOR A SHIDDUCH attitude of gezzha comes back even for a 2nd of 3rd generation of BTS. so be a true Chossid !!
(8/5/2012 1:53:08 AM)
30
Ad Mosai?
The word prejudice (or foredeeming) is most often used to refer to preconceived judgments toward people or a person because of gender, social class, age, disability, religion, race/ethnicity, nationality or other personal characteristics.

It can also refer to unfounded beliefs[1] and may include "any unreasonable attitude that is unusually resistant to rational influence."

For the record, prejudices kills.

We must not continue the bigotry, racism and hatred for secular jews, non-jews and animals. Just because your parents held these views doesn't mean you have to continue the negativity which disintegrates homes and shalom bayis.

The use of the word shvartze or goy in a derogatory way is prevalent in frum homes and is an embarrassment. It is sad to see the same descendants of people who were killed because of bigotry and name calling, use it against their fellow human being.

We need to return to the true teachings of the Rebbe of Ahavas Yisoel and not pre-judging a whole group of people because of their background. Look at their middos and who they are as an individual.

Remember, prejudices kill and the origination of the word bigot in the english language is "religious hypocrite". If you want to show your kids you are a complete fake, just show them your prejudice toward fellow jews and goyim.

Maybe that is the reason so many kids from Gezhe families are going off the derech?
(8/5/2012 1:54:11 AM)
31
cholent pot
excellent idea finally we got to the point, may be thats why we got into this famous crisis of shidduchim, according to shadchanim in crown heights, that gezhe personality always comes up, may be, may be, may be? unless something wrong with the gezhe child then is good for a BT, divorced parents or sefardim !! what a wrong attitude
(8/5/2012 2:11:20 AM)
32
to #26
Well put!
(8/5/2012 4:22:01 AM)
33
To #16
Is there a problem with not being able to make cholent and having tuna fish on a Shabbos table?

Btw, if Rivka Imeinu would be around today do you think she would get a shiduch? Or would everyone write her off because she came from a wicked family?
(8/5/2012 4:33:48 AM)
34
to number 26
what are you on about i do not get it your saying that if your father is poor you should not marry in to a poor family but then cotrodict by saying that no one should marry poor people
(8/5/2012 6:11:08 AM)
35
Different personality
I like the way someone discribed Bt here- ''Why don't you analyze the fact that most BTs are more dedicated and honest and emesdik than you so-called "Gezhe" ...".

It is soooo true!!! I looooove the fact my parents are BT and I would never give up on this sincerity and emesdigkaid BT children have. I am obviously looking for BT children. I will simply understand their bckgrnds better, identify more with them.
Balei Teshuva!!! Why would you want to give up on that and marry Gezhe (which obviously have their own maalos)
And yes, I love my mother s cholent and I find the Gezhe cholent tasteless!

I agree a 100 percent that we have different menthalythies and I completely understand why gezhe wouldnt wanna marry BT and vice versa.

Daughter of BT
(8/5/2012 7:29:52 AM)
36
continuation of 32
And yes, if you open sharei shidduchim you see the Rebbe totally gives room to make it a priority to marry into Yichus. Yitzchok looked for Yichus and look at the Rebbe- OHO he married Yichus!!! loool

And with all that I love BT;s children
A daughter of BT
(8/5/2012 7:32:59 AM)
37
Cool Vort!
I heard that Geze are compared to carrots.
The best part is underground...
(8/5/2012 7:36:37 AM)
38
Beautiful but...
I totally get the article, think its very well written, and believe it brings out a very good point. However, I don't understand something. Why the whole gezhe/BT debate to begin with? A shidduch isn't about who I'm accepting of, prejudice against, who I would socialize with etc. It's not a job interview. It's who I am going to MARRY. Spend the rest of my LIFE with. Build a HOME with. Wouldn't I want someone I can relate to? Be myself with? Have the same outlook on life? Have a similar background? I dont understand why people get so defensive and insulted? If I don't want to marry so and so, it's not a mark on their character. It's not that I have something against them. It's not that I don't like them. They just dont fit ME. I still love, respect, and accept them. It's the same when asking about someone for a shidduch, and you trump up their personality and midos until they sound like a tzaddik/tzaddeikes. Your not doing them a favor by not staying blunt bare and honest. This isn't a shiva call. They need a MATCH, so why give a version of them that is 'just a little exaggerated'? Your not only not helping them, your actually hurting them by pushing away what may be their true match. I feel like people have totally lost sight at what is at the core here. So why don't we leave all this nonsense aside and just daven to Hashem and do everything that's in our power to help girls and boys find their bashert!
(8/5/2012 10:22:30 AM)
39
Realistic old timer
obviously all the comments putting down gesha and promoting BTs are written by BTs. Let's face it, there is a difference. Why can't BTs stick together and Gezash stick together. The BTs have a different mentality, think differently and see life in a different light than the Gezah. A
(8/5/2012 10:38:09 AM)
40
to 26
what r u talking about

so if hes poor he shouldn't be able to marry off his children
(8/5/2012 10:51:59 AM)
41
770 russian gezha
Great title Rabbi Lipskier.. and agree with #19 and others if money, gezhe will close their eyes but BTS will not closed their eyes on their midos, laziness, taking advantage of others or being greedy...40/50 years later we all see and know what gezha are capable to do????????????????
(8/5/2012 10:59:54 AM)
42
Great article
Well made if slightly naive
The author is gez -- would he let his daughters
Marry a BT??
(8/5/2012 12:03:22 PM)
43
Beautiful article!
Well said!
(8/5/2012 12:09:42 PM)
44
I really like the ideas in this article.
Being in shidduchim is so confusing sometimes and its nice to find some articles that give you a moment of clarity.
Yasher Koach and please keep them coming!
(its also refreshing to see peoples response to this article)
(8/5/2012 12:13:55 PM)
45
I dont know......
in my humble opinion every person is their own Yichus........
(8/5/2012 12:43:53 PM)
46
out of interest,
where is this sicha?
nice article!
(8/5/2012 1:24:46 PM)
47
well said
Yasher koach to Rabbi Lipskier. I also want to commend the chasid who wrote comment #30--your message needs to get out, and I would love to see a full-length opinion piece on COL addressing this theme.
(8/5/2012 1:27:43 PM)
48
cholent
As a BT I admit that my cholent might not be as good as what they served in Rostov, but I do know a few things about how to cook it:

1. If the smallest ingredient is missing, it can throw off the recipe.

2. You need to give it time for the flavors to work together.

Of course, everything is a lesson in avodas Hashem, so draw your own conclusions.
(8/5/2012 1:40:13 PM)
49
friend of BT
'Some of my best friends are BTs. All BTs would love to become Gesha or at least marry one. Please, BTs are very very jealous of Gesha. You don't have to be. Be yourself and do what is right.
(8/5/2012 3:51:33 PM)
50
Realistic Old Timer Is an Old Time Racist
Realistic Old timer you stereotype and are a bigot.

How come there is no holocaust education in lubavitch institutions?

Maybe if we taught our kids about how we have lost 6 million due to prejudice and stereotyping they would realize that the gezheh KKK and putting down is downright evil and will eventually lead to sinas chinam.

bigotry and prejudice is the height of insecurity. Deep down we are all the same and G-D willing every gezheh person can call themselves a BT.
(8/5/2012 4:12:39 PM)
51
To number 19
Right on! I am exactly the same as you.
(8/5/2012 4:20:05 PM)
52
Hitler
Didn't care if you were gezhe or bT...all jews were thrown in the gas chambers...not so long ago. We are not much different.

A jew is a jew.
(8/5/2012 4:30:22 PM)
53
Gheze
Its not yichus they look for - it's how much $$ one has - that's the new gheze.
(8/5/2012 4:31:06 PM)
54
to #6
"Therapist" you have got to get a therapist urself, u desperately need help!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
(8/5/2012 9:09:55 PM)
55
to #6
Agree to disagree!
(8/5/2012 9:14:37 PM)
56
to all
Why is everyone here attacking gezah? What do u expect of people she grew up in Russia with no food or any sort of education? The biggest culturel achievement in life was to empty out bottles of vodka..... They are not racists, they are just unhappy with their current inner self situation and constently refer to their grandparents origin as a way to elevate themselves. Please go easy on them.
(8/5/2012 10:53:26 PM)
57
Pinchos Woolsdtone
What is Gezhe really.
person who for two or three or four generation had relatives whol ived in a certain place davened a certain nusach and had a connection with a raebbe of Chabad.
All that is fine but does it make the person a better Chosid.
Do they have better middos are they bigger talmidei chachomim
So whats the fuss about..

I am a direct descendent of the Alte Rebbe so what?.Another Chabadnik thats all..
Maybe we a just a group of self righteous farmers from russian villages.
The who Gezhe thing is sickening.
Small people desperately trying to project self importance
(8/5/2012 10:54:41 PM)
58
My Shidduch Criteria
I am "perfect" bochur, looking for a future father-in-law that comes from a chosheve family, is geshmak and has toichen, is a ben-Torah, is balabatish, has (lots of) money and can "help out", lives out-of-town (ideally, in a mansion), owns a few cars.

The potential girl needs to be beautiful, slim, kind hearted, good middos, frum-tznius-chassidish but normal, smart, accomplished, a go-getter (not lazy), happy person, warm, talented in running a house/family.

Is that asking too much? Why should I settle for less?!

(8/5/2012 11:27:53 PM)
59
To #30
Thank you. Your sensibilities speak to the highest of human ideals. I am proud to be a Jew when I read such words. (Sometimes I feel horrible when I read comments of a blindly prejudice and intolerant nature, written by Jews, especially when they speak from a SUPPOSED spiritual loyalty.)
(8/6/2012 12:06:52 AM)
60
To #58
You should look for a shidduch in Toronto, Canada - there you can find everything you are looking for - Torah u'Gedulah b'mokom echad!
(8/6/2012 1:55:04 AM)
61
What is with this crazy Gezhe Bashing!?!
I just read all of the comments after this beautiful article and a good many of them are bashing gezhe. Let's see the good midois mentioned here and just stop putting each other down!!!! Everyone has their own maalos whether BT, Gezhe, Sfardi, Chasseedish, etc. Just make sure you are the best you that you can be and forget about putting other people down.
(8/6/2012 3:12:12 AM)
62
To #6
Take it from a BT. You're closed mindedness and lack of sociability is exactly why i wouldn't marry an FFB. CH need to get their values in check. those carrying the torch of Lubavitch are in fact - BTs.
(8/6/2012 3:16:18 AM)
63
True Story
I am a baal teshuva Chasid and married a gezhe girl.
My gezheh in-laws disowned my wife for choosing mw and emotionally abused her for many years.

BT's should know there is an element of prejudice in Chabad and to realize that this is completely against the Rebbe who many say favored BT's.

When one gezhe chasid complained to the Rebbe that he was favoring BT's, the Rebbe said, "Nu! Become a BT!"

Be careful of the yetzer hora that is clothed in a hat and a kapote.



(8/6/2012 7:24:24 AM)
64
hey what about me??!!
not gezhe ( married to half gezhe,the other being like me) and not BT but ffb Europian background . now WE know how to cook, bake, dress ,are balebatish,good looking, strong confident, and know the true meaning of doing chesed!! I think everyone should stick to their own kind and devorce rate will go down!
(8/6/2012 7:53:43 AM)
65
TO #58
Well, do you think some family out there really wants a son in law like you? I am young lady with parents who are well to do, definately not a choseva family at all.....and I can say with much confidence to you that my parents would say a big fat NO to you with your arrogance....and well I hope you weren't serious with what you said in your post and best of luck!! (and your post does contradict itself in a few instances....fyi).
(8/6/2012 8:15:07 AM)
66
old single bt - just want to be married already
i admit, i prefer an ffb, but not many singles around period for an older bt; ffbs tend to come up as suggestion, i think just since that is what is in CH, not many single female bts in their 30s
(8/6/2012 10:13:09 AM)
67
from 770
EXPECTING MUCH MORE COMMENTS, SHADCHANIM CONTINUE YR BEAUTIFUL JOB AND PARENTS STOP TO SELECT, SHIDDUCHIM WILL HAPPEN MUCH FASTER, LET HASHEM DO HIS WORK TOO, NO GEZHA AND NO BT, NO ASHKENAZY, NO SFARDY, NO LITVISH JUST A GOOD NESHAMA WITH REAL GOOD MIDOS!!
(8/6/2012 10:30:58 AM)
68
Midos?
Good MidoT never got anyone far in life
(8/6/2012 11:42:29 AM)
69
Make your own yichus
The irony is that many so called BT's come from families that were once frum just like the so called 'gezhe' only 1 - 5 generations ago. While the so called 'gezhe' have children or grandchildren who are now fray and will have to become BTs to become part of the frum world once again.

In 20 years from now we will have a phenomon of garndchildren of BT"S with their own yichus not wanting to marry grandchildren of 'gezhe' who have to rebuild their yichus once again.

Yichus is something that 'you make it or break it'.
(8/6/2012 12:12:24 PM)
70
from 770
please repost this article every week people need to read over and over until it goes to their brain thats nothing wrong with BTs and gezha will have a different attitude, better word "no gahava".
(8/6/2012 1:17:42 PM)
71
gezhe
The Rebbe once told a Baal TEshuva that gezhe he inherited from his father in law. he had no choice. but baalei teshuvos are his chassidim!!
(8/6/2012 1:22:50 PM)
72
th #58
that IS too much to ask for!!!! evryone wants all those "mylos",so go ahed...find me atleast 5 fther-in-lows like that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
(8/6/2012 1:26:44 PM)
73
BT CHOLENT?...WHAT ... AN ...IDIOT!!!
You need a therapist! # 6-
so do half the people in CH!
Anyone can learn to cook chulent.
Youre an idiot
And an example of the idiots in your self rightous circles.

Way back we all came from one man whose relatives sold and worshiped idols - and even further than that, believe it or not every human being came from Adom.
We are all the same.
Its you who think you have a free ride on your grandfathers coattails, because he did something that gave him a special status. Its all his own .
You did nothing to earn it!!!!.
Stop putting yourself on a higher level and thinking and teaching your children to think they are BETTER, then others.
So, you're all related to one another - big shpiel!
Inbreeding is dangerous.
Too much of the same blood .....
Whatever!!
And there is nothing wrong with a bt marrying into a "GESHER " family. As long as the attitude of the Gesher is not disrespectfful and the inlaw is treated properly- thats the real issue.
Bt's need to have respect for themselves THEY CHOOSE THIS WAY OF LIFE.. What did the inbreeds do to earn it? They were born into it??? They look down on those they Mekarev and then drop them and hold them in contempt.
Define yourself as a G-d fearing Jew. Stop with the ubber menchen garbage and stamps or labels.
Save your contempt for yoursellves and how your own kids from the super frum backgrounds are frying out because of the duplicity and nonsense they see around them.
Grow up.
(8/6/2012 3:19:05 PM)
74
Cooking can be taught! #6
Just like midos and mentchkeit - something your obvious have no idea about- I fear for your decendents!!!!
(8/6/2012 3:29:56 PM)
75
WHY WHY WHY WHY
My heart goes out to these boys and girls who dont come from gezhe families when at heart they are some of the most amazing people meanwhile i know many many people that do come from these lineages and throw it all away and are not even religous today but ride their lives out on the fact that they come from a home of their status why is this so hard to see that its every person to himself and not from which family they are and why are people saying how beautiful these articles are arent they supposed to know this by now????
(8/6/2012 4:01:42 PM)
76
To #65 from #58
There are very few "perfect" boys like me. No local girls fit my criteria - besides I want an out-of-towner who had a normal upbringing (not in the box / ghetto). I hear that Toronto has a good selections of Lubav-shidduch-aged girls that fit my criteria but I don't know any Toronto shaddchonim.
(8/6/2012 5:42:50 PM)
77
to 76 toronto
Save yourself for shiduchim yes the toronto girls are "out of towners" but they are gttoish in their own way and from my experience i would rather my own kinda getto girl then theirs
(8/6/2012 5:50:41 PM)
78
#77 had a bit too much to drink
Toronto girls "are ghettoish in their own way" - I guess that is because Toronto girls are classy, tzniusdik, aidel and have good midos.

You wrote "I would rather my own" - just as some would rather a beer and hot dog than a fine wine and steak.

In Toronto itself there are those who live "down-south"-yeshiva community (area code 416) and those who live "up-north"-chabad gate/shluchim community (area code 905).

I don't know if the Toronto girls that #76 recommends are the ones living "down-south" or "up-north". #60 wrote that Toronto has Torah and Gedulah (folks there have ruchniyus and gashmiyus) often with a PHD (Poppa Has Dough).

It should be with mazel.
(8/6/2012 9:53:46 PM)
79
Passionatley agree
B'h
Lineage is nothing, well almost meaningless. As in finding ones bashert.
Just take a look at our Avos none of us has worse parents then they and yet look at what they produced.... We create our own lineage. Hatzlacha
(8/6/2012 9:54:10 PM)
80
Who was Dovid HaMelch's great-grandmother?
what is there to argue about?
(8/6/2012 10:49:46 PM)
81
#58 from #65
Maybe its time for you to take a fine landing on planet earth? Having fun, I take it? I find your double standard quite amusing...
(8/6/2012 10:59:57 PM)
82
To #72
"find me 5 father-in-laws like that" - in Toronto there are many anash that are very "comfortable" and live in mansions (at least 5 anash there are $ucce$$ful lawyer$) and they have most or all of the criteria this perfect bochur seeks in a father-in-law.
(8/7/2012 12:12:31 AM)
83
father gezha
I will certainely give my daughters with no problem to a BT and BT's wish is to find someone gezha, he will straight out my daughters, out of the derech, very pretty blond, slim & smart in Crown Heights ...good personality just a little bit moody??????
(8/7/2012 2:02:33 AM)
84
russian mother
please repost the article very good excellent on how to accept one to each other at young age not when gezhas reach 30 and +, good to recycle.. sorry, i have boys and girls with russian accent and recipes for cholent too
(8/7/2012 2:10:57 AM)
85
perfect boy number 76
i have perfect girl , geshe smart not looking for torontoian boys , keep in touch
(8/7/2012 1:33:18 PM)
86
This article is briliant!
Wow, thanks col for posting!
(8/7/2012 2:56:17 PM)
87
It is a boy's market
I get that it's a boy's market - but do the mother's of these boys need to be so arrogant? once the honeymoon is over, that great catch may realize that her husband is not her perfect match.
(8/7/2012 4:29:31 PM)
88
To #85 from #76
"keep in touch" - how?
(8/7/2012 5:52:24 PM)
89
Shaliach: ffb shidduch with bt
I saw a dinner plate lying in the mud. It was covered with slimy worms and snails. I picked up the plate, carried it home, washed off the dirt, worms and snails. I keep the plate in my house. It is now a beautiful plate. But I cannot bring myself to eat from this plate because i can still picture the worms and snails on it.

I was mekarev many plates. I cleaned up their souls. They lived in my house, like family. They turned into beautiful sparkling Yidden. I love them with all my heart. But I cannot make a shidduch with them - because I have seen them covered in worms.

(8/7/2012 6:39:11 PM)
90
Wow #73 is right on..
I am related to the Rambam on my mothers side..so what ? The Sefardim were the rich aristocrats while in russia the Jews were potato farmers so theres no need to make yourself superior unless you have a deep need to raise yourself above others due to an inferiority complex.

The Gemara says a father may take pride and gets reward for his sons accomplishments as he had a hand and worked towards it, but a son gets no reward if his father was a tzaddik and he is nothing.

In the end all this Gezshe stuff goes against he whole point of Chassidus and the Baal Shemtov, which was to look at all Jews equally.

If someone trumpets gezshe, it means he has little else to be proud of.. pathetic actually...
(8/7/2012 9:37:12 PM)
91
to 86- POMPOUS CHAMOR

You learn chassidus? You call yourself one of the Rebbes messengers?
You are nothing but a snob.
I wonder if when rosh hashana comes around and your dirty avaraivos make their way infront of the Kesay Hakovod if the Abishter will show such contempt for you?
There are so many that are on a place you will never in this lifetime merit to be in .
You think you are too good for those like Raish Lakish ?, you don't have the understanding or the merit .- there isnt any place for them - to filled with your own gayva and accomplishments.
Shame on you.
Youre no shliach.
You're masquerading as one.

(8/7/2012 10:16:01 PM)
92
to #89
If you can call a BT's neshama, who is a tinok shenishba, something that is covered in worms and dirt, i feel for you. Your ahavas yisrael clearly hasn't extended as far as you may wish to pretend.
That attitude is exactly the reason so many BTs get disillusioned after a few years of seeing the real attitudes and views behind the PC Chabad House pretense.
(8/7/2012 10:33:18 PM)
93
to 89
Your comment is offensive - your soul is covered in worms and snails.
(8/7/2012 10:56:05 PM)
94
A thought I once heard...
Yichus is just a bunch of 0s thrust into your hands. It means nothing, unless you are the ONE that makes them into 1,000,000.
(8/8/2012 12:31:57 AM)
95
To 89
Your moshel of a plate covered in dirt and worms and snails illustrates that the plate is never affected in any way by the dirt or worms on it. It is only because YOU saw the plate in such a state that you lose your appetite to eat from such a plate. In fact, you also realize that there is nothing wrong with the plate, especially now that it is all cleaned up. It is just the image in your head that stops you from using the plate. Basically, you acknowledge that the fault lies with you. It's not the plate - it is you. We are all humans and imperfect. But the plate is perfect.
(8/8/2012 6:17:17 AM)
96
to number 89 from ffb
Sorry to enlighten u but after 120 yrs u will be lying in mud amongst the worms and snails, but if u dont do teshuva for those disgusting words , ur soul will also have an eternity of mud, worms and snails. BE CAREFUL!!

(8/8/2012 7:58:28 AM)
97
I'm with 92 and 93
I became frum thanks to shaliach's family. Was it a necessary step in my life? I am not certain - since I have experienced the comments and attitudes like #89's first. This too has given me a hard time in shidduchim in the Chabad community. I certainly can say that I have grown in the ways of Torah U'Madda (thanks to my education at YU) and found that the Modern Orthodox community is accepting and non-judgemental quite contrary to Chabad. I would suggest that as much as Chabad doesn't like the term "kiruv" - stop makareving people if you can't fully accept and integrate them into your community. Many BT's are professionals and have a means of making a good living - Chabad has no problem asking them for funding, but when it comes to shidduchim - it is all of a sudden an issue. You simply can't have it both ways. I am not saying this to bash Chabad or its intentions but somewhere along the lines something isn't connecting. I am sure not everyone is like this - but comments like #89 are not few...so then where is their true Ahavas Yisroel - nonexistent?
(8/8/2012 7:59:41 AM)
98
91# MEANT # 89
SORRY PUT THE WRONG NUMBER BY MISTAKE - WAS SO UPSET BY 89'S LACK OF INTELLIGENCE AND UNDERSTANDING AND AHAVAS YISROEL.
( SORRY 86 NOT YOU)
(8/8/2012 10:26:36 AM)
99
89 is invited to CAY
Dear Shaliach,

When you come to Crown Heights, visit us at CAY. You will see the beauty of true BT's and with introspection you will discover that it is you who wallow in mud and is covered by worms and snails. Then join us for a Havdalah and fee yourself from the dirt while lifting your soul in spiritual flames. Join us at CAY - you may remain as long as you want and we won't see your faults, because we only see your pure soul.
(8/8/2012 3:32:27 PM)
100
To 89
If you were a plate I would break the plate and shout mazel tov.
(8/8/2012 10:18:39 PM)
101
To #58
Are you serious? You sound like someone looking for a business, not a marriage. Don't you think if you put a bit of your heart in the equation you might be more successful at being desirable? I might have all the "qualifications" that suit you, but I might feel you seem too robotic. On the other hand, maybe there is someone out there who doesn't mind hearing your standards. Would you state them just as you did here?
(8/9/2012 3:00:16 AM)
102
To #58
I am a senior citizen, so I've been around for a while, and I have NEVER heard another human being call themselves "perfect". You scare me. Your comment confuses me. How does ANYONE declare themselves perfect?
(8/9/2012 3:09:51 AM)
103
Agreed with 97
Torah Umadda seems to be best for all the makarev'd BTs. Why spend that money on a broken system that made you to reject you? Why not spend it on a system that will support you after the hardship of family/friend rejection and work with you to support yourself like it says in Pirkei Avos!!!!
(8/9/2012 8:44:20 PM)
104
Toronto Girls have it ALL
I agree that girls from Toronto have special qualities. I took for my son a kallah from Toronto and for my next son I would first look to Toronto. The girls have an aidelkeit, mentchlechkeit, and good upbringing.
(8/10/2012 6:57:30 PM)
105
To Mr. Perfect-
Are you kidding me? Are you planning to marry a person, or a stuffed doll? I would not encourage my daughter to consider marrying a guy who proclaimed himself as "perfect". No one else can measure up, mostly because NO ONE is perfect. Most women of depth find it attractive when an intelligent man can have a lot going for him, including the awareness that he has a few things to work on. That would indicate to intelligent women that he values self improvement and growth. I am wondering where you got the idea that "perfect" was a realistic assessment for any human being. The Rebbe himself was aware that he was not a perfect person. You can check on that. And, by the way, it's ok not to be perfect. As a matter of fact, I KNOW my daughter would never marry a man who thought he was, because she would know he had a lot of learning to do.
(8/11/2012 12:29:20 PM)
106
What the ....?
I read that a few Gezhe claim to actually be better or higher than BT. Really. Can one whole group of people actually be better or higher than another whole group? I wonder what would happen if there were an honest appraisal between the two groups, person by person. I mean appraisal of ethics, morals, fairness, level of conscientiousness, empathy, compassion, kindness, patience, understanding, etc., not appraisal of money, # of children, owner of material things, how many hours a week someone davens, which school they attended, etc. Let us see what the result would look like.
(8/11/2012 12:59:34 PM)
107
Similar backgrounds
Usually similar backgrounds is a good basis when considering a shidduch. That the boy and girl had a similar background. Before any BT get bent out of shape and twisted into a pretzel, is there any doubt at all that a BT has a different background than a FFB???
(8/12/2012 12:20:21 AM)
108
If you're looking for a good girl - look to Toronto!
I agree that Toronto is a place to look, if you are looking for a good girl.
(8/12/2012 5:27:29 PM)
109
This may sound crazy, but . . .
I am not suggesting that everyone has to marry somebody whose background differs from his or her own, but I believe that genetic problems resulting from excessive inbreeding in our world of chomer reflect analogous deficiencies flowing from imbalances on the level of tzurah.
(8/19/2012 12:27:47 AM)
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