By anonymous
It happens often. The phone rings. It is an unfamiliar number. My eyebrows narrow, my forehead wrinkles and my memory goes for a jog trying to decipher any previous connection with the digits on the screen. I press the green button and say in a polite voice, “Hello?”
“Hi. I’m calling about ……… who you know from ……..”
“No problem,” I answer, willing to do my part and help another fellow on the road to the Chuppah. “What would you like to know?”
“Well, tell me about them,” comes the simplistic request. Here’s where I pause for a minute and try to organize my thoughts. I hem and haw and go through how I know the person and all their maalos. Describing a person is very general.
Then the fun questions come.
“Is …. Chassidish?” Sure.
“Middos Tovos?” Sure.
“Is she Tznius?” Sure.
“Is she smart?” Sure.
I have no idea what your definition of “Chassidish” and you have no idea what I consider “Chassidish” or for that matter, middos? When I ask about smarts, do you mean book smart or street smart? But the conversation ends and you move on.
I recently got a phone call asking about a certain girl who has phenomenal Middos. I described all the positives and tried to be as helpful as possible.
“Nu,” the mother asked me. “Voss is nuch? What’s the drawback? Anything else you can tell me? Everyone I call says a diamond, a jewel and all the maalos. How can I find out specifics, the whole picture?”
She was clearly frustrated by her inability to get the inside scoop which she could have gotten had she asked the right and not generic questions. Or call it multiple choice questions.
Here are a few examples:
“What type of Chassidish is he? Chitas, Rambam, Mivtzoyim, Mamorim…” I can easily answer you, “Oh, he’s great about doing Mivtzoyim. He’s energetic and inspired.” I now have an idea of how to answer and you have a way more accurate response then “Ye, he’s Chassidish.” You can ask further or infer from my enthusiastic response when you mentioned Mivtzoyim that learning isn’t his strongest aspect.
The same can be asked of a girl. “Is she Tznius?” will guarantee you a positive response unless that is far from the truth. Tznius can be defined in so many ways. “What type of Tznius is she? Not so fussy, covers everything but a bit tight, or knees might show when she sits…” Surprisingly, people answer very exact! It is easier to say the truth when it is a choice in a panel. Sometimes I might say, “Oh, none of those. Really she’s …….” Once again, you get much more precise answers and I get much clearer ideas of how to accurately answer your question.
Being specific in your questions and knowing the type of answers you are expecting goes a long way in the quality of the phone call. Zone in on what exactly you are looking for as a positive and negative and your questions will target those areas. Take the answers we give you and surmise the character we are describing. Then ask clarification questions to see if you got the correct impression. These two important steps are helpful to the caller, the answerer and the person in question.
This was not written as criticism, just as suggestion to make this confusing stage a bit more clear. May we see many Simchos in Klal Yisroel immediately and have the ultimate Simcha, Moshiach!
1) Ask YOUR OWN CHILD to make a list of their top 20 characteristics for a spouse. Tell them to narrow it down to 10. Then narrow it down to 5. Expect 3/5. Discuss it with them so you understand what they want. 2) Ask YOUR OWN CHILD to make a list of their deal-breakers (maximum 3), 3) Ask YOUR OWN CHILD the range of frumkeit/chassidishkeit they are ok with, and age range they are ok with. Discuss it with them so you know what they want. 3) Check Dor Yesharim numbers. No need to bother with the whole reference… Read more »
Many argue that the whole is often greater than the sum of the parts. There are cases for which we could also argue that the whole is less than the sum of the parts. In other words, simple arithmetic does not work when it comes to joining two individuals in marriage. Specifically, there is something to be said about analyzing goodness of fit or potential. I believe that few people are clairvoyant enough to make correct assessments of goodness of fit or to correctly predict potential. Therefore, all references, good or bad, should be taken with a grain of salt.… Read more »
Thanks!
Your questions are EXACTLY why there is a shidduch problem, too much parental meddling. The interrogation you are suggesting will eliminate good options for no good reason. You need to ask basic questions to rule out big issues, and then get out of the way. Or put differently, you’d think that with the ever increasing research and scrutiny we’d be seeing more successful marriages and fewer divorces, but the opposite is true. So, once again, parents (and mothers in particular), get out of the way, be supportive of your child, not domineering. If you trust that your child is old… Read more »
thank you for the ideas presented. obviously u dont have to ask ALL these questions, u use what suits you. Also if i say i dont know someone that well, its because the person put me on their reference list but i knew them too many years ago , and im not sure if and how they have changed, what their outlook is now, and if they kept the same chassidishkeit level.
Thank-you
i dont believe that friends references need to say the whole truth. you gotta be smart. what person would want to go out with someone who it said about her that she is closed. tell me the truth?? as a reference the person trusts you so much to give over the best information. i hope that no one is soley relying on references any ways and is doing their own real research. your responsibility is to say good and only good. i know someone who was already pretty old and wasnt getting far with any suggestion because her “friend” reference… Read more »
You can speak to them but I would n’t believe 1/2 of what they say… Most roomates don’t really get along and if they are looking for a shidduch, chances are its going to be a conflict of interests. You really don’t have any idea when you ask someone about a person , how that person is connected to them what politics are involved and since so many people are related to each other business wise and family someones going to have a “BEEF’ with someone somewhere sometime and chances are you won’t even know about it so the information… Read more »
U shouldve wrote the article
all the research before is just to see if there is an initial date! They ultimately dont decide if you marry the person or not.
ATTENTION BOYS AND GIRLS
MAKE SURE YOU REALLY LIKE THE PERSON AND THE ULTIMATE DECISION IS YOURS!
#38 love what you wrote
MY GOODNESS I feel terrible for whoever you speak to-what’s with ALL THOSE QUESTIONS. Many of them are utterly ridiculous!
How much sleep does he/she need? SERIOUSLY?
Tznious of mother? SERIOUSLY?
Popular? SERIOUSLY?
Has he taken VITAMINS and if so WHICH ONES?? SERIOUSLY?
COME ON!! THIS HAS GOT TO BE A JOKE
“What 3 things come to mind first when you think of this person ? Then I will ask questions.” (most of these items have multiple options. You are trying to figure out which one.) 1. Temperment Character patient and thoughtful or answers quickly and definitively easy going and relaxed or intense and driven high standards for himself , expects alot of others generally happy and optimistic, sees the good in things, even challenges worries about things and what will go wrong 2 When things don’t go his way: quiet and keeps it to himself, gets angry, yells, tells the guy… Read more »
also handwriting analysis. you’d prob find out the most that way…
I said hes “75% Chassidish” – but for most of the time hes chassidish!
lol
How about consulting with your mashpia and a good coach?
HILARIOUS..most definitely cracked me up!
The guy I know who “sells phone accessories” is a multi millionaire (sorry, he’s also married.) Terrible job, isn’t it?
Why stop at that? Let’s do a breath analyzer, lie detector test, IQ test, colonoscopy, shaatnez testing, drug testing, reflex reaction, cholesterol, mold, paper vs real dishes testing, smoke detectors, phone tapping, emission testing (if family owns a car), hypnosis testing, carbon monoxide, REM dream pattern testing and urinalysis.
So if I say that I don’t really know my niece,(she lives on the other side of the world) you’ll think there’s something wrong with her? and if I answer by guessing what she’s like since she’s probably like her parents is that more helpful?????????? If I say she’s a live-wire, she must be bi-polar, while if she’s very organised and neat, she must have ocd???? There’s got to be a better way. How about resumes have a paragraph written by the person in question, describing themselves, what they envision their future home to be like, etc. What about parents… Read more »
No one is perfect. Gasp.. Did I just say that aloud?? It’s true- your friend in shidduchim- s/he is not perfect and they aren’t looking for THE perfect person. The parents (hopefully) are looking for the person who is perfect FOR THEIR CHILD! People have to realise that if you get a reference call, telling the truth doesn’t mean you’re saying lashon horah and your friend will never get married. Saying the truth will help your friend Iyh marry someone who is most suited to them and shares a common outlook on life… ‘is he an on time person?’- if… Read more »
Whoever has good ideas for questions to ask please write them in this comment section. Or maybe you can even write an article that can be posted on the site.
It would also be helpful if someone can write suggestions about topics to talk about while on a date. Questions that are appropriate for earlier dating, as well as questions that are important if the dating become serious.
Thank you to all who respond.
it is an interesting discussion. having made numerous reference calls, i’ve learned that it is crucial to hear what the ppl are not saying. reading between the lines is key to understanding what a person is all about. asking about chisronos is a waste of time b/c we all have them it’s just a question of whether or not we can live with the other person’s personality. one character trait can be perfect for someone and can be a total disaster for someone else. for example- a person that is very laid back, that can be a great match for… Read more »
You should check for 3 things, B’kisoi, B’ekoisoi, B’kasoi, meaning, is he cheap, does he drink alot, does he have a bad temper. If you trust our holy tanoim then you’re good to go.
He’s a good cook=he’s overweight. He loves to excersize=he’s totally not in shape which is why we have to say this. He likes to learn rather than “hanging out” with friends=he has no friends. He is vertically challanged=he’s short. He’s great with kids=can’t think of anything better to say so I’ll let you know this. He is “keeping his option opens for parnassa”=he has no idea what he is going to do/doesn’t have a promising job He has a great sense of humor=caution! he may be really corny He sells electronics=STAY FAR AWAY-DO YOU WANT A HUSBAND WHO SELLS CELL… Read more »
She is an angel = she is not a mentch. In the end, we were very happy = in the end, when he left, we were very happy. He is like Moishe Rabeinu = he stutters. He is like Shakespeare = he knows no Hebrew.
Be aware that there are also aidel expressions which convey the truth: She’s a well rounded individual could mean she’s gastronomically enhanced. He always keeps his head above water = he never goes to the mikvah. He is quite responsible = whenever something goes wrong, he is responsible. He was neverr fired from a job = he never had a job.
In my opinion, the time, energy and emotions on the boy and girls part that could and does go into a shidduch date could be avoided with proper investigating. Maybe it’s a good idea to find out if the other side is interested before investigating.
When you are asked about a shidduch, you are obligated to tell the truth! It is NOT considered loshon horo. BTW, when someone who is supposed to know the person well just answers yeah, yeah, I guess he is chassidish…. because they don’t want to get involved, or it’s just their personality, that can turn people away from shidduchim! I know someone who can’t get a shidduch because his shliach is a cold fish! On the other hand, I know someone who ended up married to a man with mental illness, and had to get divorced, because his relatives would… Read more »
If you’re going to make a call first think about what it is you want to find out and then prepare questions that match your concerns. It’s pretty simple. Since every person is different there is no master list of concerns. Asking yes or no questions is silly, asking what is a chisaron is just dumb-everyone has chisronos and no one feels comfortable discussing it. If a certain chisaron is an issue for that shidduch that ask about that specific thing. Don’t ask if s/he gets angry, oh please everyone gets angry, rather ask, waht does s/he do when s/he… Read more »
when someone calls you and asks you specific thingsabout chisronos like Is he/ she a very timely person or doesnt have much concept of time… then its est to be honest and say they are not the most timely person. for some people that wont make it or break it. you dont want to lie.. its the most helpful to tell the truth. it will help people not have to go out with multiplle wrong people. and someones chisaron might not bother the possible shidduch!
In my opinion, we waste hours of our time on phone calls for references only to have the other side say forget it and the shidduch never happens. I personally think the whole system is handled wrongly. I feel if a shidduch looks good, let the boy and girl meet once. If there is interest, then you start making calls and doing the reference thing. Because if there is no interest, why bother at all? It just creates frustration and a lot of disappointment. What is wrong with a one time meeting, even by skype, to get a picture of… Read more »
Totally agree.
I think the referents should be called just to give names of other pepole to call. If you don’t trust the reference to be objective then at least ask them who the boy or girl trusts; who they spend the most time with; who their mashpia is; who their neighbors are; classmates, coworkers, etc.
Then call some of those people to ask one or two specific questions to each one.
Hatzlacha
to all of you who say u dont feel right to say t he truth, that is relly wrong!!!! its not fair for the people who are trusting u with a major life decisiom!!!!
if you lie and there is something wrong with the person and they get married, who will be responsable for the problems later!!!???
A perfect book for guidance is “Chofetz Chaim A Lesson A Day” by ArtScroll
reference calls…. the most awkward calls I ever get
I really dont like getting them. usually the person callng has no idea what they want
This is a perfect example why Shidduchim do not work You mean getting “whole scoop”, as in Lashon Horah? Chas v’shalom the guy and the girl actually get together to see if they are compatible. (And I don’t mean an interview in a Hotel Lobby) With all our study of Torah and education, we are going to be lured away by a Dinner and a movie. What does that day about our Torah education? Shidduch Crisis??? We make our own unnecessary crisis. Time for Kal Yisroel to wake up and really act Middos Tovos. Until then it’s going to be… Read more »
who wants to say anything negative about their friend, who they know put them on their reference list and is expecting only the best? i don’t want to have to be the one to say something not nice about a friend or the one who has to be “brutally” honest..
I think you can call references, smart people can read between the lines of even a positive answer.
One alarm signal for me that something might be wrong with the person I am asking about is if the they say “I dont really know them that well” or “I know them in a different way, that kind of info I dont really know”
i know someone who specifically doesn’t call ANYONE on a reference list-the person finds other people to call who will be a little more accurate and not just say the “nice” things…..
and it is quite hard to formulate questions that are not leading…
and how to phrase them in a nice way because you cant really ask “is this guy normal or is he weird” straight out blunt Qs either… it would be nice if some people can put together some questions (for boys and for girls) to ask. Parents are given the job of researching and not everyone knows how to do it but they have to do it anyway.
they will never say the truth.
try to find mutual friends who also care about you and will tell you whats really going on.
the list they give u are all prepped on what exactly to say…
Sometimes a few questions are not enough and Shidduchim DON’T work!
When we was ready to get married we met with our Rabbi before going further in our relationship and writing into the Rebbe for a brocha, we sat down with him and all he asked me was:- 1) Will you cover your hair? 2) Will you keep Taharat Hamishpacha? 3) Will you keep Chalav Yisrael? when i replied YES to all these questions he turned around and said “perfect its a good match write to the Rebbe for a brocha and go for it. Now 20 years later i am divorced, disillusioned and hurt!
What are you supposed to say?
Of course I know that not everyone is perfect, and of course I can tell you things that are not so great about them, but then I would feel so guilty!
It just feels wrong to sit and say lashon hara about someone, even if you try to sound as nice as possible.
Thats why I personally usually only say nice things about people….
you find out the “whole scoop” from references, who by the way will OF COURSE say good things, and then you meet the person and they are NOTHING like what you expected.
system: FAIL.