Jun 4, 2012
Reference Calls Done Right
Shidduchim SOS: A mother calls and asks "is she Chassidish, Middos Tovos, Tznius and smart?" Sure! Because I don't know what you mean and you don't know what I mean.
By anonymous
It happens often. The phone rings. It is an unfamiliar number. My eyebrows narrow, my forehead wrinkles and my memory goes for a jog trying to decipher any previous connection with the digits on the screen. I press the green button and say in a polite voice, "Hello?"
"Hi. I'm calling about ……… who you know from …….."
"No problem," I answer, willing to do my part and help another fellow on the road to the Chuppah. "What would you like to know?"
"Well, tell me about them," comes the simplistic request. Here's where I pause for a minute and try to organize my thoughts. I hem and haw and go through how I know the person and all their maalos. Describing a person is very general.
Then the fun questions come.
"Is …. Chassidish?" Sure.
"Middos Tovos?" Sure.
"Is she Tznius?" Sure.
"Is she smart?" Sure.
I have no idea what your definition of "Chassidish" and you have no idea what I consider "Chassidish" or for that matter, middos? When I ask about smarts, do you mean book smart or street smart? But the conversation ends and you move on.
I recently got a phone call asking about a certain girl who has phenomenal Middos. I described all the positives and tried to be as helpful as possible.
"Nu," the mother asked me. "Voss is nuch? What's the drawback? Anything else you can tell me? Everyone I call says a diamond, a jewel and all the maalos. How can I find out specifics, the whole picture?"
She was clearly frustrated by her inability to get the inside scoop which she could have gotten had she asked the right and not generic questions. Or call it multiple choice questions.
Here are a few examples:
"What type of Chassidish is he? Chitas, Rambam, Mivtzoyim, Mamorim…" I can easily answer you, "Oh, he's great about doing Mivtzoyim. He's energetic and inspired." I now have an idea of how to answer and you have a way more accurate response then "Ye, he's Chassidish." You can ask further or infer from my enthusiastic response when you mentioned Mivtzoyim that learning isn't his strongest aspect.
The same can be asked of a girl. "Is she Tznius?" will guarantee you a positive response unless that is far from the truth. Tznius can be defined in so many ways. "What type of Tznius is she? Not so fussy, covers everything but a bit tight, or knees might show when she sits…" Surprisingly, people answer very exact! It is easier to say the truth when it is a choice in a panel. Sometimes I might say, "Oh, none of those. Really she's ……." Once again, you get much more precise answers and I get much clearer ideas of how to accurately answer your question.
Being specific in your questions and knowing the type of answers you are expecting goes a long way in the quality of the phone call. Zone in on what exactly you are looking for as a positive and negative and your questions will target those areas. Take the answers we give you and surmise the character we are describing. Then ask clarification questions to see if you got the correct impression. These two important steps are helpful to the caller, the answerer and the person in question.
This was not written as criticism, just as suggestion to make this confusing stage a bit more clear. May we see many Simchos in Klal Yisroel immediately and have the ultimate Simcha, Moshiach!
system: FAIL.
Of course I know that not everyone is perfect, and of course I can tell you things that are not so great about them, but then I would feel so guilty!
It just feels wrong to sit and say lashon hara about someone, even if you try to sound as nice as possible.
Thats why I personally usually only say nice things about people....
try to find mutual friends who also care about you and will tell you whats really going on.
the list they give u are all prepped on what exactly to say...
and how to phrase them in a nice way because you cant really ask "is this guy normal or is he weird" straight out blunt Qs either... it would be nice if some people can put together some questions (for boys and for girls) to ask. Parents are given the job of researching and not everyone knows how to do it but they have to do it anyway.
One alarm signal for me that something might be wrong with the person I am asking about is if the they say "I dont really know them that well" or "I know them in a different way, that kind of info I dont really know"
You mean getting "whole scoop", as in Lashon Horah?
Chas v'shalom the guy and the girl actually get together to see if they are compatible. (And I don't mean an interview in a Hotel Lobby) With all our study of Torah and education, we are going to be lured away by a Dinner and a [gasp] movie. What does that day about our Torah education?
Shidduch Crisis??? We make our own unnecessary crisis.
Time for Kal Yisroel to wake up and really act Middos Tovos. Until then it's going to be a long wait for Moshiach
I really dont like getting them. usually the person callng has no idea what they want
if you lie and there is something wrong with the person and they get married, who will be responsable for the problems later!!!???
Then call some of those people to ask one or two specific questions to each one.
Hatzlacha
On another note, if you are concerned with what someone said than call a few more people and then call them back to clarify.
There are certain red flags, and I felt really stupid when a mother didn't pick up on them because she was so concerned about if she dressed tznius and knew how to cook. I told her she could call me back if she had more concerns or to clarify things further but at this stage of her research (she told me I was her first call) I did not feel comfortable disclosing such private information(I was advised by a rav to use that expression, so that it was obvious there was something but to be specific until something was serious). She did not call me back. I assumed she found out about the personality disorder from someone else or there were enough inconsistencies to drop the idea. I went out of town, and later found out that they married.
BTW, when someone who is supposed to know the person well just answers yeah, yeah, I guess he is chassidish.... because they don't want to get involved, or it's just their personality, that can turn people away from shidduchim! I know someone who can't get a shidduch because his shliach is a cold fish!
On the other hand, I know someone who ended up married to a man with mental illness, and had to get divorced, because his relatives would not say anything when they could have prevented heartbreak! This is totally unacceptable!
He loves to excersize=he's totally not in shape which is why we have to say this.
He likes to learn rather than "hanging out" with friends=he has no friends.
He is vertically challanged=he's short.
He's great with kids=can't think of anything better to say so I'll let you know this.
He is "keeping his option opens for parnassa"=he has no idea what he is going to do/doesn't have a promising job
He has a great sense of humor=caution! he may be really corny
He sells electronics=STAY FAR AWAY-DO YOU WANT A HUSBAND WHO SELLS CELL PHONE ACCESSORIES???????
asking about chisronos is a waste of time b/c we all have them it's just a question of whether or not we can live with the other person's personality. one character trait can be perfect for someone and can be a total disaster for someone else. for example- a person that is very laid back, that can be a great match for one personality type but very difficult for someone that is very mesudar and punctual. it really depends on the person you are asking about.
It would also be helpful if someone can write suggestions about topics to talk about while on a date. Questions that are appropriate for earlier dating, as well as questions that are important if the dating become serious.
Thank you to all who respond.
People have to realise that if you get a reference call, telling the truth doesn't mean you're saying lashon horah and your friend will never get married. Saying the truth will help your friend Iyh marry someone who is most suited to them and shares a common outlook on life...
'is he an on time person?'- if he's not, say so! Maybe the daughter of the lady on the phone is also relaxed about her time and that's exactly what she wants... 'is she generous with her money when out with friends?' maybe this guy's son is rather thrifty and would like it if his wife didn't 'waste' their money on others' coffee...
Everyone has a different way of looking at life, and usually they would like to marry a person who shares that outlook. Actions and reactions to daily life tell you about a persons mindset and personality. It's not wrong, or bad, it's just who they are!
So say the truth- because that's what's true.... And that might be just what they are looking for!!
lol
(most of these items have multiple options. You are trying to figure out which one.)
1. Temperment Character
patient and thoughtful or answers quickly and definitively
easy going and relaxed or intense and driven
high standards for himself , expects alot of others
generally happy and optimistic, sees the good in things, even challenges
worries about things and what will go wrong
2 When things don't go his way:
quiet and keeps it to himself, gets angry, yells, tells the guy off and then stays away from him, let it go and try to be dan likaf zchus abt why he did something, Talk about it and solutionize.
3 Different pts. of view??
Keep his own pt of veiw and just stay away from that person, accept that ea person is entitled to his own pt of veiw, argue to convince him till you agree w/ him, open to hearing and changing his mind to agree w/ you.
4 How does he help others?
He'll do anything to help someone else, even if he misses out on something that is important to him, he'll help close friend aand family, he is careful not to over extend himself and be used, he goes on mivtzoim and does hachnasa orchim mainly because they are specific mitzvos,
5 Does he like kids?
He always works w/ kids whenever he can, such as T"T camp, release time, Dorm councelor, He plays w/ the shaliach's kids and they love him, he spends all of his time learning and doesn't have time for playing,
6 Conversation?
He always waits to hear out the other person before he takes his turn to speak, he reall yhas good stuff to speak about and does most of the talking, heis quiet and usually lets the other person speak the most,
7 Does he do things that are new readily? Or is he usually afraid to do a new thing, jumps right in and is adventerous, thinks it through carefully and eventually gets it done,
8 Works to resolve issues?
When there is a problem he avoids confrontation and hopes it goes away by itself, brainstorms to try and find a solution, tries to find someone who could take care of it ,
Takes care of everything himself.
9 Is he a leader or a follower? Likes to be in charge, Is always the one to be in charge, takes instruction from others and carries it out, Waits to be told what needs to be done,
10 Does he always need to win an argument? Does he put someone down who has an opinion that is different than his ? Does he agree w/ the other person just to keep peace,
11 Health? Have you ever seen him take medications or vitamins? What kind? Does he catch cold easily? Miss of seder due to not feeling well ? Get headaches often? Have digestive problems, always in the bathroom, medical or psyciatric problems, emothional?
12 Does he or she go to a gym? Is it mixed? (yes this is a valid question today)
13 When something doesn't go his way? someone is late? ect. He gets angry and yells, He gets mad and holds a grudge, forgets and calms down quickly, holds it in because he doesn't want to get anyone mad at him, tells the person that things aren't right,
14 Movies Goes to see them in a theatre once in a while, will never go to a theatre, watches videos on the plane , at home he will occaisionally rent a video, never rent one but will watch at a friends house. Never watches goyish videos, watches only Rebbe videos.
15 Clothing Will wear only Blk and white shirt, colored shirts, t shirts., Hat and jacket or is more casual and out of town dresses differently. Jeans, flip flops, shorts.
short skirts, long skirts, neckline, stockings, nail polish, whatever is nogayah to you.
16 Learning, takes it seriously as if it were a job, tries to absorb and apply it, is an average learner like most guys, would rather be out doing active things such as mivtzoim, or work part time. Seder Chassidus in the morning or learns later on. Keeps seder mostly, or usually, some of the time or not always, never. once a week, with who? talk the who that he or she learns with. Girls learning, attend a shiur? Chitas, Sefer Hamitzvos, ect?
17 Davening Usually w/ a minyan, sometimes w/ a minyan, likes to daven at home because he's in a rush , likes to sleep in, daven w/ more kavana,
Talks during davening? The usual amount, alot, never, davens at noon, tfillin, (I once had a parent admit that his bearded black and white dressed son does not put on t fillin) Ise your judgement with these questions, ask in an aidel way.
Girls daven how often?
18 Friends: Has alot of friends, a few friends Any close friends, People like him, everyone, no one, most ppl,
Very popular, not at all or like most guys. Ask for more names and numbers of friends.
19 Confidence, Thinks everyone is better than him, He is smart, the best, doesn't have a mashpia because no one is good enough for him. (this may be a sign of arragance) Lets people walk all over him, will do anything for anyone anytime, this may or may not be so good. Read between the lines.
20 Does he have any fears or are there things that he won't do?
21 How do the parents discipline? patch, yell, kind and gentle
22 Is he confident or arrogant? How does he treat his underlings ...
23 Fill in all the blanks as to what he has been doing even after shlichus? If some time span is missing, ask what he did then .
24 How does the family get along, are they close? Is there anyone whom he will not talk too in the family, why?
25 Tznius of mother??
26 Does he have any health problems ? get headaches ? how often? Asthma? Stomach? Allergies? Medication or vitamins?
27 Anger management? When he loses it, how? How about temper? How is it expressed?
28 Any childhood or teen illnesses? Mental breakdown? Depression?(be careful how you ask this, be very sensitve, best asked only to a person who would really know this, your shadchan should be able to ask directly for you, if you prefer)
29 Sees life as an adventure? Challenge? Worries about the future? Prone to panic? nervous?
30 1/2 full or 1/2 empty....
32 When he has to do something, lets say a job or travel, does he
Plan and then follow through
Worry about all that can go wrong
Is exited and looks forward to it
Procrastinate and get it done the LSAT minute under pressure
Not follow through and gets someone else to do it
33 How does he see his role as a husband? Father?
My wife has to take care of the kids and I bring in the $
I must daven, learn, minyan and my wife has to take care of the children, even if she works also.
Help w/ the children if my wife needs it, she is after a baby or not well, even if I miss minyan, shiur ect.
It is a partnership and we will discuss and compromise if necessary.
My family comes first, or shlichus or ...SholomBayis...
34 How much sleep does he/ she need?
35 Heard he or she is very serious, fun, lazy, chassidish, adventuresome, funny, ect. How does this affect his life?
36 Stubborn, needs his own way. Thinks he knows everything...
37 Make sure to speak to roommates especiall yif they are not on their referece list.
38 Ask each question in a way that they do not know what is the RIGHT answer.
ie. Maybe she/ he is more modern and a movie is what you want to hear he does.
Remember: YOU are responsible to find out all that you can, No one else is, not the Shadchan ect. (who is limited to small amounts of info about many people to be able to help as many people as possible) "Do your best and Hashem will do the rest."
1 In just about every shidduch there is a surprise, something you didn't know.
2 In just about every shidduch, there are some roughspots at some time or another, so enjoy the process and expect some gliches, as normal.
3 Your child is not perfect, so don't expect his mate to be perfect either.
4 Rejection is inevitable, Rejection is Hashem's Protection!
How much sleep does he/she need? SERIOUSLY?
Tznious of mother? SERIOUSLY?
Popular? SERIOUSLY?
Has he taken VITAMINS and if so WHICH ONES?? SERIOUSLY?
COME ON!! THIS HAS GOT TO BE A JOKE
ATTENTION BOYS AND GIRLS
MAKE SURE YOU REALLY LIKE THE PERSON AND THE ULTIMATE DECISION IS YOURS!
#38 love what you wrote
You can speak to them but I would n't believe 1/2 of what they say... Most roomates don't really get along and if they are looking for a shidduch, chances are its going to be a conflict of interests.
You really don't have any idea when you ask someone about a person , how that person is connected to them what politics are involved and since so many people are related to each other business wise and family someones going to have a "BEEF' with someone somewhere sometime and chances are you won't even know about it so the information you get is worthless.
Good luck though, the standard answers are: OH HE/SHE IS NICE, A MENTCH, RELIGIOUS, I KNOW THE FAMILY, THEY WORK FOR ME, THEY ARE SO NICE, HE/SHE NICE ETC.......
In other words, simple arithmetic does not work when it comes to joining two individuals in marriage.
Specifically, there is something to be said about analyzing goodness of fit or potential. I believe that few people are clairvoyant enough to make correct assessments of goodness of fit or to correctly predict potential. Therefore, all references, good or bad, should be taken with a grain of salt.
What is more is to seek proper counsel and to make informed, responsible, personal decisions.
Chana Leboeuf
2) Ask YOUR OWN CHILD to make a list of their deal-breakers (maximum 3),
3) Ask YOUR OWN CHILD the range of frumkeit/chassidishkeit they are ok with, and age range they are ok with. Discuss it with them so you know what they want.
3) Check Dor Yesharim numbers. No need to bother with the whole reference process if they don't work!
4) Call your references and make sure that the person fits the ranges given in #3. If not, this shidduch is not for your child, obviously.
Ask if the person fits the categories you answered in #2. If yes, obviously this shidduch is not worth continuing for you.
Ask if they have any of the characteristics answered in #1. If they do not have at least 3, this shidduch is not for you.
Ask if they are aware of any serious health issues (they do not need to be specific). If the answer is yes, ask if the situation is managed or not. If no, this shidduch is not for you. If yes, continue the process, and keep in mind that you will need to find out more about it later on and make a decision at that point.
5) Get a general picture of the person, i.e. where they were educated. Ask a few questions to find out more about the personality - i.e. "If he/she was asked to dress up as a chicken for the Lag B'omer parade, how would he/she react?" This is NOT to rule anyone out, just to provide your child some background so the date isn't as "blind."
6) Set up a time to meet! If someone thought of them and you didn't rule them out in the above, they're worth a meeting. It's not your job to be a navi and see if they're likely to get married. It's your job to make sure they are in the ballpark.
7) Make sure you educate your child, before the date, about the concept of "red flags" and how to react with them. (Make note of them, and if they are concerns, call a Rav and the references back THEN and ask specific questions to clarify the situation better.) Also be sure your child has a good mashpia to discuss things with (they may not always want to turn to you, especially if they are concerned you will judge them and/or their prospective spouse).
8) If the shidduch process continues past 2 dates, make sure to re-address any health issues that were mentioned. You may want to ask a Rav, doctor, etc. to find out how this issue might affect marriage. Allow YOUR CHILD to decide if they are ok with those consequences. (Yes, I know you want to shield your child from hurt, and you think they are too young to decide. But there are many who willingly married people with various diseases and managed mental health issues, with very happy marriages. Some issues don't come out until later in life, so in some ways the known is safer.)
9) Make sure your child knows the expected timeline for shidduchim:
- first date is an icebreaker, almost always try a second date (you're not too busy...)
- second date - try to find out if you want to go out again
- third date - try to decide if you want to go out again
etc.
Periodically review #1-3 and make sure this person has not been ruled out. After 5+ dates you can start doing a self-check for Hamshochas Halev. It may be necessary to take a break, or if you feel that you really don't know them at all, just keep dating.
Don't forget to be careful about yichud!
Remember that every shidduch will teach you something more about what you want or don't want.
10) Hopefully, MAZEL TOV!