Nov 7, 2011
Sure, He's a Really Great Guy
SOS Shidduchim: A bochur offers a humorous glimpse into what he thinks when being asked about a friend for a shidduch.
So the conversation usually begins with:
1) "Are you a friend of so-and-so?" - "Hello! I am on his reference list so I guess I am a friend."
Following your request for me to give a five minute monologue, including the dirtiest secrets of my good friend, I will probably proceed to say:
2) "Ask me! - I'm not very good at describing people, but if you ask me questions, I can probably do a fair job answering them."
You will then proceed to ask a sheepish question or two, leading up to if I know what kind of girl he is looking for, to which I will respond:
3) Remember, I'm a guy - I may be his roommate but that doesn't mean I know what type of girl he's looking for, or what he would like to do with his future.
If you'd like to know how he likes his meat cooked, well done or medium rare, that I can tell you!
Bochurim are obviously willing to answer your calls and questions:
4) You can call me till late at night, but please don't call me before 11 in the morning, I'm usually busy with sleeping, mikvah, shachris, etc.
Then the serious questions begin to flow and the pauses between answers get longer too:
5) When I tell you that I don't sit near him during Seder, and would therefore not know how his attendance is, that probably means that he or I don't regularly come.
No conversation is complete without asking the mandatory one in number 6.
6) "Is he chassidish?" - If you don't define what the word "chassidish" means in YOUR dictionary, then I'll just tell you "yes", because he is "chassidish" according to at least one person's definition of the word.
Connected to that is number 7.
7) If I don't explicitly say that he Davens "on time" (i.e. before 12 noon), then that probably means that he has no problem with Davening right before (or even after) shkiah.
It is around out about then that occurrence number 8 happens.
8) I know you're able to multi-task, but when I hear how you're working on getting supper ready, and there's a kid in the background shrieking "Mommy, Mommy!" I know that you're not really listening to what I'm saying, so I just won't say much.
With the Chassidish formalities out of the way, obviously Chassidishkeit before middos and kindness, then it's time to get to the dirty secrets.
9) Uh, he's my friend... - Are you really expecting me to say something negative about him?!
Well now that you know that there is not much negative to him, you begin to ask about his substance exploits to which I divulge:
10) If I don't think that he'll still be getting drunk after he's married, then I'll tell you that he doesn't drink more than four. If I'm not sure that he'll give up his "farbrenging" once he's married, then I'll just have to redefine to myself what the size of each of those four L'chaims are.
The questions begin to get vague:
11) "What would you say is his most pronounced îéãä?" - Please, if you want a Chassidus shiur on each of the òùø ñôéøåú I can try to give that to you, but if all you want to know is whether he's more kind than unkind, then just ask that!
After they get vague they lean towards the ridiculous:
12) "If he was right for your sister, would you suggest him?" - Uh, what's that supposed to mean? Obviously if I thought he was right for my sister I would suggest him!
And then it's time to probe for the negative again:
13) "What's his biggest çéñøåï?" - I know that this is considered a "good" question but, a) refer back to #9 and b) even if I do say something, chances are I'd spin it so that it can also come out to be a îòìä.
The questioning hasn't been going so well, so it's time to reveret to some assumptions:
14) When you ask me, "So basically you're telling me that he's an amazing guy?", I'll tell you you "yup", but what I would really love to answer is "No, what I'm telling you is that you don't know how to ask questions!"
15) Ask me how I think he would react in specific situations, you'll probably get a much better understanding of the type of guy that he is.
16) Attention parents! - I'll probably tell my friend that someone called about him, and I'll tell him what I thought of YOU!
Yes, I know it's not fair to judge a girl based on how her parents sounded on the phone, but life isn't always fair...
Besides for the obvious lessons in 15 and 16, it is probably worth your while calling someone not on the reference paper.
P.S. This is not a call for incessant spewings of nastiness and distaste. In the right spirit, this is a positive and light look at a very serious matter.
They are not going to tell you the truth anyway.
If some people can put together a type of well written questions that these inexperienced parents can use, it would be a big chessed!
Wouldn't you rather want your daughter to marry a kind and loving guy with good middos and talents rather than a dull guy who always davens on time and with a minyan and learns with great hasmode?
I dont want to judge anyone, but the bochrim who are extremely makpid about minyan and seder etc, are usually the ones who are lacking fine midos and talents, and you can ask any bochur and most mashpiim in yeshivas about that.
As a matter of fact, i know alot of very fine yungerlait and shluchim, who when they were bochrim were not the biggest seder goers or minyan daveners, but after they got married u can find them every morning learning chasidus and davening with a minyan, and setting aside time to learn torah every day from there busy, or not yet busy schedules
So why do parents look at the nuances that dont really make to much of a difference, rather than focusing on the bochurs midos, yiras shomayim, personality, talents etc
At the end of one conversation like this, a mother of a girl exclaimed "wow! he sounds perfect for my daughter!"
And now they're married.
and I'm talking from experiens!!
great job LOL
;)
very mature and understanding
i would love to get married to someone like u,
who has such a positive attitude towards lifes challenges
"if u cant fight it embrace it"
1. does she use toothpaste with a hechsher or without? what about tylenol?
2. what brocho does she make on rice?
3. what milchig company does she eat? only badatz? golden flow? cholov akum?
4. does she add salt to hot soup on shabbos?
5. does she eat in restaurants that don't have mashgiach temidi (like all CHK establishments)?
6. do her parents use a blech with the crockpot or not? i.e. is there aluminum foil sticking out of the crockpot?
7. does she use male taxi drivers or just the kosher female ones?
8. what is the brocho acharona on an apple?
9. does she take her plate to the garbage after eating or wait for servant-mommy to clean up?
10. when she uses toothpaste does she roll up the tube to get every last drop out or just squeeze from the middle?
11. does she remember to get toilet paper before it finishes? or she has to use newspapers for a day?
12. what kind of movies does she watch?
13. how long before a flight does she show up at the airport?
14. how many hours a week are spent on window shopping?
15. how many days does it take to choose a pair of shoes? a shirt?
16. when does she light shabbos candles? on time? or always right before shkiah regardless of when licht-bentchn was?
17. does she know how to do the shabbos day kiddush?
So you want us to be truthful?! If we tell you the truth about everything then you'll NEVER find "Mr. Perfect". At least now, (thanks to our little "cover-ups") every now and then you think you've found "Mr. Perfect"...as if such a thing really exists.
I do the same when people call me! (in a nice way)
Is he chassidish? Lie and say “Yup” and you may have killed the perfect shidduch because the girl is also totally very non-chassidish.
Same with, Does he watch movies, listen to non-Jewish music and read non-Jewish novels? You DON'T know what the “right” answer is, and its usually not the one you think it is, so best: Keep it real!
And if you DO know something that you don't want to mention, at the very least tell them to ask others out it. You cannot judge if they should or shouldn't know about it and if it will impact the shidduch or not. Don't be the one held responsible for a broken engagement or c"v a divorce. I know because it is a very heavy guilt trip to carry for a lifetime!
If I would have been smarter and more mature 19 years ago - I could have prevented a broken home, children off the derech, lots of tears etc. I did not do any favor to my friend by lying!! (He curses me whenever he sees me). Every day I klap al chet and say, "I CAUSED THE CHURBAN!!"
In my experience people ALWAYS lie and say what they think you want to hear...leading unfortunately to many unhappy marriages and R"L divorces.
People, please remember you have a responsibility to tell the truth.
The questions I get asked about my friends are so rediculous sometimes that I wonder why people even bother calling me to ask them!
Oh...and then there are the people who turn everything you say around to make it sound like what they want/don't want to hear.
quite comical!
The questions I ask you are not noygeya - it's how YOU speak and interact.
I have 3 daughters who found their shidduchim by me calling the references and being impressed with the bochur from the references!!
No one says the truth to strangers.
A few questions I like to ask:
I don;t care much for chsidishkeit, that's easy to confirm. I'm more concerned about midos and attitude.
Does he/she dominate the conversation?
Are they strong minded/opinionated?
Figure out a way to ask if they have a short fuse?
Are they the type to pay for friends when they go out (generous).
Are they adamant to go on shlichus.
the problem is that people out there dont understand bochrim, they should be speaking to the bochurs mashpiim and roshie yeshivas more, and finding out about his hashkofes and yiras shomayim from an objective perspective, and even they will tell u that being makpid on minyan and seder is not the most important thing! and as u say it will kick in after marriage anyhow
wish was more questions- for me to lough more
Doing proper research is a very serious matter and must be done properly to be effective. Viacharei Kichlois Hakol, say a Kapitel Tehilim and of course write into the Rebbe for a brocho for the whole shiduch parsha.
Do not rely just on the friends given as references. Ask one or two of those references who they would say know him well and call them.
Call up to the Yeshivois where he learned.
The camps that he went to as a staff member.
The yeshiva where he spent his shlichus year.
The various shluchim or shluchois that he assisted.
Read between the lines. Listen to the excitement or enthusiasm in the voice of the responder. Are they happy to share this information with you or are they just responding to your questions with a lukewarm obligatory endorsement.
Questions to ask from friends or acquaintances etc.
How do they know him? Were they with him in Yeshiva? On Shlichus? In camp? Merkoz Shlichus? Mivtzoyim. Etc.
Do not ask questions that can be answered with a simple yes or no. Ask questions that the person will have to respond to with examples backing up his statement. Use the following questions as guides.
1) What qualities does he have that would define him as a Chassidisher Bochur?
2) What do you know about him that would show that he is a true Yerei Shmayim.
3) What can you say about that shows what kind of Midois he has.
4) Does he have a koch in learning Nigleh? Chassidus. Hafotseh, Rebbe shlichus etc.
5) What are the qualities that friends of his see in him? What are the qualities that he looks for in his chaverim?
6) What qualities does he have that you feel will make him a good husband, father, michanech etc.
7) Do you find that people enjoy being in is presence?
8) Did you ever observe him in stressful situations? How did he handle those situations?
9) Who did he not get along with? Why?
Does he snore at night? Truth is - yes, but “I don't know!”
Is he a bed wetter? Truth is - yes, but “I don't know!”
Is he on meds? Truth is - at least 6 pills a day, but “I don't know!”
Is he considerate to his roommate? Truth is he usually opens light in room no matter what time it is or who is sleeping, and then listens to Matisyahu without earbuds, but “I don't know!”
This is who used me as his reference!!!
getalifewhenuknowwhatthatreallymeandtouboredppl.org.au
The solutions is to first know what's individually important to you and then ask questions (like 51 nd suggested) that will give you an idea of the person.
Don't ask for labels or judgement, ask about scenarios.
Isn't that what the point of a date is, to figure out whether this is a good shidduch for you or not, and not to just go ahead and get married b/c you heard good things on the phone from the references?!
If I'm wrong, please explain!
kos - drink
kaas - anger
kees - pocket
translated into questions:
have you ever seen him drunk? is he responsible? reliable? pls give examples? what is he like socially?
how does he react when he's upset? what gets him upset? (everyone gets upset!)
is he generous? (with gelt, with helping ppl) is he considerate? can you give an example?
hatzlacha!
ps we LAUGHED reading #33!! so clever!
You can and should refer them NOW!
be careful, cuz they may be calling about "ur friend" when all they want to hear is you! g'luck!
Besides the fact that you obviously have issues (or jealousy?) of those who learn, bc there are many amazing Bochurim who are learners...
i just metioned that someone who who has a hard time with keeping seder, or who doesnt have the zitsfleish to sit for 16 hours learning and nothing else alday, usualy doesnt display the greatest middos,
of course learning torah is important and i believe it to be the foundation of a true bayis neemon as well
brilliant!
Additionally, being besudar and disciplined is important to me, because being on time and scheduled is important to my future in terms of being able to rely on someone.
And to #85, I could not agree more!