Sep 10, 2011
A Thank You to the Guys

Response to "Dear Chabad Bochur": A 24 year-old single girl defends all the single bochurim out there and has a special thank you to make.

By a Chabad girl

I have heard so much talk about this "shidduch crisis" that it's coming out of my ears. Everyone is looking to blame others and try to figure out why they are still single.

I have something to say as well; mainly to the bochurim. I am a 24 year-old girl and single. I have Baruch Hashem have had many people looking out for me and have dated many bochurim.

Firstly, I believe strongly in G-d and in hashgacha pratis. I think that any experience we go through is meant to be, and should be a learning opportunity for us.

I don't feel negatively toward shadchanim who set me up with guys that weren't my speed, or even to the guys that didn't fill my needs. I look at all my outrageous dating stories with humor and thank G-d that I can laugh about them.

I do feel like there is a lot of negativity coming from girls directed at the bochurim; it's so easy to point fingers and find fault in others, like the author of "Dear Chabad Bochur..." did.

But I would like to take most of the blame in my case:

I had no idea what I was doing or what to expect when I first started dating. I wasn't anywhere near ready for marriage, but didn't know enough about myself to realize that, and I'm sorry. I'd like to apologize to the guys on behalf all girls who were in my situation. We didn't realize that we were causing pain, and it's not fair that you suffered from our immaturity.

Secondly, once I realized I was ready, I wasn't sure what it was that I wanted. There is this notion out there that "once you meet him, you will know". So why should I figure out what I need? I'll just know when I see him. So of course I was set up with a lot of guys that did not fit with me, and I couldn't figure out why. I'm sorry for being the girl who doesn't know what she wants, and making others go through unnecessary hardship.

But there are many things I did learn from dating before being ready. I've learned that there are many, many metschlich guys out there that come in many different "types" (for lack of a better word). I've learned that no one is "simple" or "a loser" and that everyone has something to contribute.

And I've learned not to judge people too quickly. It pains me to see other girls putting down guys they have never met, and to label them with cheap words. Who are they to determine the quality and value of another person?

But most importantly, I'd like to say Thank You. To all the guys who invested time in planning a date, rented a car, paid for gas, paid for parking, shelled out cash for food and drinks, thought of things to talk about, and tried so hard to make us girls feel comfortable: Thank you!

Although we will not remain friends, it was nice to have a pleasant experience with you. Thanks for not making us afraid to meet other people, and for teaching us so much about ourselves.

I for one, appreciate all that you have done.

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Opinions and Comments
1
wow
(9/9/2011 9:36:35 PM)
2
Surprised
Wow that's a first !! Well done :)
(9/10/2011 5:24:28 AM)
3
An interested Bocher
This girl has a heart and I don't think that I need a picture in
this case.
The inside here is true beauty and anything else would just be
a big bonus. Please forward an email address or Shadchan's
telephone #.
(9/10/2011 5:30:21 AM)
4
Bobbie
What a sweet girl, I hope she finds her true bashert very soon iyH!
(9/10/2011 5:51:36 AM)
5
Applaud
I applaud this gal who wrote the article for not settling. She could have accepted any one of the bochrim that she was set up with, due to society or family pressure. But, she did not. I hope you DO find the right bashert guy for you. Thanks for a sweet and sincere article.
(9/10/2011 11:16:55 AM)
6
Good luck.
(9/10/2011 1:52:25 PM)
7
in one word
Exploiter!!

"rented a car, paid for gas, paid for parking"

it's look lick every time you want a good restaurant and you have no money for a taxi and for the meal. You ask the Shadchan to arrange you a date with some Fraier Bocher

;) LOL

(9/10/2011 3:12:26 PM)
8
Wow
Thank You
(9/10/2011 4:18:43 PM)
9
it takes two to tango!
(9/10/2011 4:36:45 PM)
10
the solution to a lot of the heartache:
take a shidduch coach, who will help you work out your vision,, set goals for every aspect of the dating process and get trained to date effectively. Often shadchaniot are coaches too, or they can refer you to one. Neshei newsletter may also be able to refer you to one.G-d bless
(9/10/2011 4:55:27 PM)
11
Um?
Is this really an article necessary to publish?I've spoken to many married friends who are happily married and they have told me that they didn't 'have that feeling that he's for me' so don;t wait for that or trust and rely.

But on the bright side I do like your positivity
(9/10/2011 5:04:40 PM)
12
like
(9/10/2011 5:51:57 PM)
13
no coment??
suprising for this chronical! it always has above 50 cts when I see it.

aniways, thnks for admitting our effort
(9/10/2011 6:25:58 PM)
14
Thumbs up
Yasher Koach!
(9/10/2011 6:39:54 PM)
15
hey!
leah gansbourg is a very good shadchanis she made my two children shiduch!

this op-ed is right but as i posted b4 - u had to go to
http://www.collive.com/show_news.rtx?id=13121&hl=argentina
(9/10/2011 8:04:51 PM)
16
somone
thank you for reminding me to stay on the positive side, I needed that.
(9/10/2011 8:30:12 PM)
17
28 & divorced
WELL SAID!
(9/10/2011 8:31:35 PM)
18
shkoach
may everyone learn from you...
(9/10/2011 8:46:38 PM)
19
dated for 5 yrs......
didn't have a clue what I was doing,who I was,what I wanted then my parents got involved and found the right guy for me and sent me out to take with the attitude that this is the guy ur ganna marry just make sure u like him. with that attitude I looked for the good in him( which of course there were loads as that's what my parents went for) ....no 'feelings' later we got engaged.....16 yrs later and plenty of 'feeling' built over time I'm blissfully happy bh and so grateful to my wiser then me parents..... my point is....parents do ur job and girls trust ur parents...they know u best and care about u most!!!
(9/10/2011 8:51:41 PM)
20
as a 24 year old single bochur
i really appreciate your article it gave me allot of encouragement
thanks

p.s. about that last article blaming bochurim i have one thing to say to that author . do you still want to marry a bochur?
(9/10/2011 8:55:45 PM)
21
kudos
This is so refreshing!
May hashem only act (openly) positive towards you.
(9/10/2011 9:12:20 PM)
22
Loving the Positivity
You go girl! I agree with you. People often talk about a shidduch crisis and no good guys etc. I think there are good guys and in the right time, with Hashem's help, a person will find the right one for herself. In the meantime instead of playing the blame game, see the positive side of things. People are trying to help you, even if they may be off with their suggestions and guys really are going out of their way for the girls they are dating. You brought up great points! Thanks for posting.
(9/10/2011 9:23:23 PM)
23
my thoughts exactly!
im a single girl who also dates lots of bochurim, some not such positive experiences and I look back at with humor and some great positive experiences with mentchlich bochurim.
There are a quite a few bochurim that I wish I could say thank you to, for teaching me something, for giving me what to think about.. I have had so many learning experiences from you.
There is one particular bochur where we both mutually said no, but I had such a pleasant experience dating this boy that there are no hard feelings.. and he taught me so much, I wish I could say thank you for what you taught me. When I heard you got engaged I was genuinely happy for you. I recently saw you on Kingston, married, walking with your wife, and mother... and my thoughts were I am so glad to see you happy. I know you were uncomfortable seeing me, but you should know I learned so much from you. Thank You.
(9/10/2011 9:29:17 PM)
24
to no. 19
I like that line of yours. "Your gonna marry him, so make sure you like him". I think that is how it used to be you married first and then you loved him/her. Yitzchak avinu and Rivka I suppose also had a loving relationship. The posuk relates that first he brought her into his tent and married her, then he loved her.
(9/10/2011 9:43:22 PM)
25
Very impressed!
Who's this girl, she seems just for me.
(9/10/2011 10:08:29 PM)
26
Meyer
I am happy to see some girls admit to being a big part of the problem.

My dating was for 4 years, I went out with a girl who said no after the first date, I am glad she did because we were very similar and I think would of worked out, but because she said no and did not even get me a chance, I dated the next girl who is now my wife and I could not be any happier.

5 Years later I am married with 3 children BH, and this girl still helplessly walks the streets very single and lonely.

There is a reason why people are old and not married - especially the girls - it is because they have a certain vision in their head and go on many 1 time dates and wait to be swept off their feet. and 7 years go by and their feet are just getting drier and lonelier.. You sleep in the bed you make.
(9/10/2011 10:13:15 PM)
27
A SMALL REFLECTION FROM A "LUCKY" GUY;
I call myself "lucky" because following the jist of these articles since I'm married for so many years I'm certainly "lucky". Please allow me to share from my experience: What I hear in the voice of the girl from the original article (depicting the Bochurim as bad in censitive beings...) is a young woman who after finally finding the right guy ("finally finding a "mentch" out there; or should I say Sucker) will spend a good part of the rest of her life making this guy "pay" for anything that doesn't go exactly perfect in her life. You know, the kind who doesn't stop complaining and blames the people closest to her anytime life (as "it" always does) throws her a curve ball.

What I hear in the voice of the girl who's thanking the Bochurim is a sweet decent person (who may not be "so sophisticated" and snoby as the first girl but she is one) who will be an Aishes Chayil for her husband, family and most importantly for her own self. She will enjoy life and make life a pleasant experience for her family EVEN when life gets to be a little difficult here and there...

I consider myself "lucky" and "unlucky" at times: It's great to be married and have a family but do you know how hard it is to deal with being blamed (actualy tortured) for regular life mishaps?
(9/10/2011 10:24:29 PM)
28
WOW
IM HONESTLY TOUCHED
(9/10/2011 10:24:37 PM)
29
Wow
I'm very impressed with this article, it seems very realistic.

The author mentioned about dating without "knowing yourself" saying "There is this notion out there that "once you meet him, you will know". So why should I figure out what I need? I'll just know when I see him."

There is an organization called AdaiAd that was formed just for this purpose with courses that help Bochurim and Girls to know what to expect before dating so they can have a more focused and productive dating experience.

They are starting their second year and have had very satisfied graduates from both their courses for girls and for Bochurim .

If you're interested in hearing more you can contact: 4adaiad@gmail.com.
(9/10/2011 10:34:51 PM)
30
Single 25-year old girl
Acceptance of responsibility and gratitude - impressive! Reading this article is like inhaling a deep breath of fresh air amidst all the smog out there.

I'd like to address a point made in the previous article's comments - about girls who go on three or four dates, smile and seem to have a good time, and then suddenly call the shidduch off. The writer of the comment, who's probably been personally treated in such a manner, asked if this didn't mean the girl was "a fake", and had merely been pretending to enjoy herself.

Since I've been that girl once or maybe twice, I'd like to take the liberty of responding. I obviously can't speak for everyone else (or even anyone else), but hopefully I can provide an alternate point of view that can lessen the sting.

The various shidduchim I've been on have ended for all sorts of reasons, but (on my side, at least) it all came down to one basic theme - I just couldn't see myself ever wanting to marry the guy. Sometimes that conclusion came from disparities in our goals or views. Sometimes that conclusion came from the revelation of traits or behaviors that disturbed me. And once, in my case, it came after four or five dates with a perfectly nice bochur about whom I had not a single negative thing to say - he just wasn't for me.

We had pleasant conversation, fairly enjoyable dates, didn't disagree about much - but after going out five times, I realized that I had no intention of marrying the guy. It does make sense, after all, that there are guys who I would (in an alternate universe) be friends with but not wish to marry. When the shadchan asked if I'd be disappointed if he didn't call again, I was honestly baffled at the concept. When she asked if I'd rather spend time with him or my brother, my brother won hands down. He was a very nice guy, but not one that I wanted to marry.

Was I pretending to have a good time when I went out? Certainly not - by nature I'm on the charismatic side, and I find people genuinely fascinating. Was it, from his point of view, an abrupt ending to a promising relationship? Yes. I felt (and later this was confirmed) that he was planning to propose, so it must have come as quite a shock. But how cruel would it have been for me to string him along, and continue to go out once I realized I had no intention of ever saying "yes"?

Time is usually the best judge, and a few years later I don't have any regrets about ending that shidduch. At the time I felt awful about the disappointment that I was dealing him, but I realized that ending it was definitely for his benefit as well as mine. As a matter of fact, he became engaged only a few months later. I was thrilled for him. Like I said, he was a wonderful guy - just not for me.

So yes, commenter, sometimes shidduchim do end for trivial reasons, or even ridiculous ones, but don't rush to label your date "a faker" - there's always another side to the story.

By the way, is anyone else loving the idea of having such a forum, where positive feedback, constructive criticism, and sometimes grievances can be aired to "the other side" in a tznius way!

Thanks COL =)
(9/10/2011 10:51:37 PM)
31
Totally agree
As a 20-something female who has dated a lot, I can really relate to what the author writes about. I too started dating WAY before I was ready for any commitment. The poor guys were (mostly) read to settle down and I could barely cope with the idea of marriage. That was unfair to them but I was still encouraged to date "just in case." In retrospect, I don't think that was the best choice. The bochurim who were ready for commitment were (mostly) mentchlich, good guys. The ones who were not, like me, managed to not be so sensitive. Many boys and girls start dating before knowing what they want or being ready for commitment. From my experience, some people just need more time to figure out who they are and what they want - and there's no crime in that. There are very obvious indicators of who is ready and who isn't, it just takes some common sense. Anyways, again, my experience has been similar to the author's and I thank her for representing girls like us. There's BH a lot of learning experiences available in the shidduch world :)
(9/10/2011 11:16:05 PM)
32
bochur
you go girl
(9/10/2011 11:20:13 PM)
33
to number 26
I don't know.. got a very negative feeling reading ur comment.. you sound like you are still annoyed she said no to you and are vengefully happy she is still not married.

not nice.
(9/10/2011 11:27:48 PM)
34
Figured out
B"H I was lucky enough to have a mashpia to help me with figuring out what I wanted and why I wasn't happy with the bochurim I dated.

To all of you, who have no idea who you are, thank you.

To the very quiet one - thank you. My husband is very quiet also, and I might have turned him down had I not met you.

To the very current one - thank you. I learned that I don't really need that type of awareness of "velt." Had I not met you, I might have thought I needed it.

To the extremely inconsiderate one - thank you. Had I not met you, I might not have noticed that my husband is considerate in quiet ways.

To the very tense one - thank you. When you got lost, you got nervous. Had I not seen that, I might have gotten annoyed at my husband, who got lost EVERY SINGLE date, but was thankfully very calm about it.

To the very intense one - thank you. We went out five times, but I had no hamshachas halev. I felt very bad to break it off. My husband is very similar to you in many ways. Knowing that you were "almost it" helped me recognize the one who was really for me.

Wishing everyone hatzlacha in finding their bashert.
(9/10/2011 11:29:29 PM)
35
Well Said
The author of this letter put things very well. I am under the impression though, that she has BH found her bashert, since I think when all girls do/should feel this way. However, to express it, usually means taking one's mind and emotions out of her present situation - which for many of us it's pretty hard. If I am mistaken, and she isn't yet engaged, then kol hakovod, it's the right attitude regardless!
(9/10/2011 11:32:20 PM)
36
to #26
It's guys too... I cannot tell you how many first dates I have been on in the past few years that I have been dating. How can you be so sure that the girl isnt for you after extensive research and only a 3 hour date??
(9/10/2011 11:42:02 PM)
37
lucky you!
not all girls are as lucky as you to have dated such nice guys. (not to say all guys are not nice, just saying your lucky)

i do hope that you tried to set these guys up with girls that may have suited them. Sadly none of the guys I have ever been out with I would ever pass along to a friend, but I've come across nice guys (at our shabbos table) and have set them up and some have been successful shidduchim.

It's up to us to "fix the crises" by doing our part...
(9/10/2011 11:50:21 PM)
38
Article
Well written # 1. However, the shidduch game isn;t a learning experience! Read books, talk to family members and be honest with yourself, Am i ready to date? Can i be that mature adult and run a family, work if needed and be a companion for that future mate? a gut Voch
(9/10/2011 11:53:33 PM)
39
23 year old bochur
Your welcome. And thank you for acknowledging this. this author has what the previous author lacked. its called class.
Lik ethis aothor said, its easy to point fingers and it makes you come off as bitter and low, especially in the ill mannered way it was done, thank you for showing us guys that there are still girls out there with good middos.
(9/10/2011 11:53:51 PM)
40
Very Important

Many boys and girls don't know what they are looking for or what to expect in a marriage, I think that articles on this subject are very important and that this site deserves a lot of credit for bringing this topic to the spotlight so that there is a lot of discussion which helps bring clarity to those who need it.
(9/11/2011 12:20:49 AM)
41
http://vimeo.com/18143364
This is a link to a fantastic talk given by Mannis Friedman on the topic of shidduchim. Hopefully you gain clarity on the outlook one should have in regards to finding your zivug. I strongly reccomend listening to it.

http://vimeo.com/18143364
(9/11/2011 12:22:37 AM)
42
thank you!
When I saw this article I felt like you took the words right out of my mouth. I've always felt this way but was never able to find the right words. Thank you for such a well written article...you are not the only one that feels this way.
(9/11/2011 12:31:49 AM)
43
Keep these columns coming!
I'm an older bochur IYH stepping into the world of Shidduchim sometime in the next few months. These forums have been very informative and enlightening, being that these are topics which aren't broached (at least not very clearly) in Yeshiva. Thanks COL for giving a forum for these obviously vital topics.
(9/11/2011 12:36:50 AM)
44
partially correct inmy opinion
Make no mistake there is sill a big problem in shidduchim all around.Many so called shadchanim are lazy & liars some others only want to deal with very select clientele.

I am a older man divorced no children. I have spoken to no less than 5 shadchanim who are doing nothing for me. They all make excuses. I am not being very picky either. I have also spoken with friends who say they are having a hard time finding a shidduch for the same reason..the so called chabad shidduch sites are just as bad.

At least 2 are only interested in upfront money. One wants $150 up front just to look a you Another took money from me 3 yrs ago & in that time despite numerous promises has done nothing!

Is it any wonder hat there is a crisis?.My solution in addition to everyone getting involved making 1 or 2 shidduchim a year is very simple.There needs to be a dedicated shidduchim office with a few paid individuals yes paid a salary to make shidduchim for all. with a set fee or sling scale fee for everyone payable within 30 days after the Chasunah.That is the only way to really solve the problem inmy opinion
(9/11/2011 12:38:34 AM)
45
To The Author :
I am a girl and I am very happy to call myself one after reading this article :) You sound like you have such a good heart and good middos Im'Yh youll find your Bashert speedily.Amen!
Thank you so much for writing a peice that is not negative and blameful to Bochurim. Reading this article, had an amzing effect on me.... you have spoken for alot of girls out there, I know because you definitely spoke for me :)
Thank you
(9/11/2011 12:40:35 AM)
46
rgh
well said....there is no written rule or law when it comes to dating use your head,heart and of course you need help from the one above....i hope in the merit of opening your heart and touching other hearts...you will find your mate....hatzlocha..
(9/11/2011 12:43:29 AM)
47
its unfortunate
that there are so many young people (i'm young-28 only that i'm married for 5 1/2 years and have 4 children ka"h kein yirbu) who werent raised with the proper understanding about who they are and what they should want. not just as frumer yidden but as individuals. its time the parents start parenting properly. communicating with their child to help them understand themselves and others.
(9/11/2011 12:47:53 AM)
48
to 26
Somehow u just don't seem so happy to me. Happy people want others to be happy to and they display happiness, not bitterness.
(9/11/2011 12:58:49 AM)
49
Looks like people need to get connected....
I am new to the shidduch/shadchan scene but I already have quite a few people emailing me. I started this after reading the comments from author's first article. You can email me at notashadchan@gmail.com. I will try to help you find your beshert. I met mine through the kindness and thoughtfulness of friends and acquaintances who cared enough to get involved. I simply want to give back and try to help. (PS: I don't expect, nor do I want, any payment in any form whatsoever, I do this for the sake of the mitzvah alone). I do not want to replace the holy work of other shadchanim, just supplemeting what is already there. Hatzlocho! (Number Three and The Author should contact me!)
(9/11/2011 1:13:36 AM)
50
The Author
Thank you all so much for your positive feedback. Sending this in was not easy for me, but your comments reassure me that I did the right thing.
(9/11/2011 1:33:47 AM)
51
to 49
Who are you? What is your name? I would be interested in emailing you but i'd like to know who you are first.
(9/11/2011 1:43:35 AM)
52
Its not black and white
It's really not black and white. The first article blamed all bochurim and the author came off as immature and "classless" (to quote an above commentator) and the second author is suddenly a saint because the boys do nothing wrong and must be appreciated for all their hard work in date planning, paying etc.

It's not black and white because it really depends on the situation. For the most part, people are decent and the boys I've dated have been mentches, but in all honesty, for the author of article #1 and for me, one boy really does have the potential to ruin an optimistic dating mindset.

I'm almost 22 and I've been dating since I was 20. I went out with a bochur recently who is considerably older than me. Everyone said amazing things about him. He was supposedly the biggest baal chesed with an amazing personality. I had a wonderful time with him on dates 1, 2, 3, and 4. We both knew going that he had a requirement in his job that would require he be out of the country for three weeks. Our fourth date was a Thursday night. It was about 5 hours long. I thought it went pretty well. I really enjoyed his company and was looking forward to seeing him again.

He did not get back to the shadchan that night, nor did he get back to her Friday morning, nor Motzi Shabbos. Finally, on Sunday night, she got ahold of him while he was at the airport and he said he was too busy to continue for now.

The shadchan said it was a five second conversation. He was not clear or specific and didn't say yes or no. For me, the worst part of all this is the fact that she had to call him and practically chase him to get an answer. Had our four dates (I thought after three was a big deal?!) meant nothing?

Three weeks later he was no longer traveling and did not contact the shadchan., Finally, two weeks after that, she called him and finally he said no. He said he wasn't interested and didn't feel "excited" to see me again, He was vague, but I finally got a no.

I was very hurt by this bochur. Why did he even date me at all?

Anyhow, these situations are never black and white because a bochur who reads this will think I am being ridiculous, while a girl will think the bochur who did this to me is a "loser" or a "jerk". What it comes down to is that people are not perfect and there really isn't one side to take the blame here. We all need to take responsibility here. That bochur needed to be a better communicator. He should have just said no. My shadchan also needed to be a better communicator. I needed to be less sensitive and more forgiving.

We all can take responsibility here and try to be decent to each other. Married young people - make shidduchim with you friends! Parents - be more on top of your local shadchan and make marrying off your kid a priority. I

If we can all take personal responsibility here, we can help fix this "crisis".
(9/11/2011 2:01:05 AM)
53
The Author
For those of you who asked about my contact info, you can reach me at ChabadGirl770@gmail.com.
(9/11/2011 2:19:01 AM)
54
If only people would see the poison of "the Shechuna"
Common let`s be realistic if you live anywhere else in the world, you find your partner/shidduch etc. along the way either at 21 or 25, but if you live in NY your part of a global shidduch crisis!!!!!!
Get real, if you trust Hashem then your shidduch will come if your working in Skoki Illinois or Blackppool UK, you dont have to be the girl staring at all the bochrim on kingston for Hashem to feel sorry for you...
Oh and Comment 49 well done, proactive thats the wayy forward! plus he kinda shotgunned so good for him!
(9/11/2011 2:20:13 AM)
55
bochur
this is what every guy is looking for thank you :))
(9/11/2011 2:45:38 AM)
56
powerful!
how refreshing to read an op ed from someone with a brain and more important - a heart

i wish the best of luck to the writer and anyone who ends up with her will be one lucky man
(9/11/2011 2:52:06 AM)
57
to 52
I actually had a similar story with a girl I was dating, just it was for 2 weeks. Thank G-d we're both married now (to our own respective spouses). She was confused as to whether I was the right one, so she (and her parents) just avoided the phone calls. That gave me the clarity to call the shadchan and say it's over (I wish I had done so a few days earlier though). Once it was called off, she admitted that she just was to indecisive so she avoided the whole issue. The funny thing was she seemed like a very nice girl, just someone being nice doesn't mean that you can take for granted that they are considerate as well. I hope everyone that needs a big maydel/little maydel/big yingel/little yingel, should have them/find them already.
(9/11/2011 9:29:29 AM)
58
Thank you!
Very refreshing to read. Thank you for taking the time to write this!
(9/11/2011 9:48:19 AM)
59
Dated someone and said no
Hi, I dated someone 4 times, after the first time I thought it was no but wasnt sure, so continued dating him, and than said no. I understand it is painful but what could I have done???
(9/11/2011 10:21:26 AM)
60
to 51 and anyone else interested in my help...
Because this is an open website accessible to anyone who happens to read it, I prefer to explain who I am and what I do through a personal email. Email me at notashadchan@gmail.com, you can even write inquiry as the header and I will be happy to email you back right away. I have quite a few people emailing me and I truly hope to help.
-Malka
(9/11/2011 12:26:34 PM)
61
Stop blind dating
Let's all pretend it's not awkward to date our neighbors. If the air is filled with a certain vibe, it can set the mood for better or worse. Let's make the first date a non-date; change it to a brief introduction. Once two people are properly introduced, they will be more comfortable going on a date together.

Let's not flirt on dates, so that it won't be awkward when it's over. Let's network with our dates so when both parties are married with chldren they can do for one another (carpool, shabbos meals, kids playdates, etc) with ahavas yisroel, instead of avoiding the other because years ago they went out and since then they don't want to look at each other.
(9/11/2011 12:30:04 PM)
62
Like!
SO GOOD TO READ A POSITIVE SHIDUCH ARTICLE!
(9/11/2011 12:31:59 PM)
63
what could you have done??
to #59.
I think it would ease the blow if you gave the shaddchan a reason why you did not want to continue! I think it is hard when you say no, not interested, but not a concrete clear reason why you are not moving forward.
I am just saying this from a mothers perspective watching my daughter date.
(9/11/2011 12:32:42 PM)
64
to #49
That is truly a wonderful chesed you will be doing for singles. Although ,why would anyone e-mail to you if you are unknown? Please post more info.

Another idea is that in several cities in the U.S. there are Shidduch groups of women who are familiar with the singles of their city....... Chicago , Miami, Los Angeles , Pittsurgh.............Why not give them a call
(9/11/2011 2:05:28 PM)
65
Amen. I agree.
(9/11/2011 5:13:56 PM)
66
re:#7
who says u must meet at expensive diners? why not meet at s1's home? a park, hotel lobby or museum? how about public transportation?
(9/11/2011 7:37:04 PM)
67
to number 63
You dont have to give a reason!!!

Do you really want to hear that:
Hes/Shes just not attracted to her
She/He has a funny smell
She/he has a controlling mother/father
Shes/hes talking to me like I'm her/his shrink - I dont want to know her issues
She/he talks too much
She/he uses curse words
Shes/he boring
Shes/hes lazy
shes/hes a nerd..
She/he talks with a negative tone about people
Shes/hes a ditz
she/he is impatient
she/he shockles weirdly when he/she talks
etc. etc.

It doesnt help to know WHY. and if I tell you why...you're just going to try to tell me that my reason is not a good enough one to say no to YOUR precious daughter/son..or youll try to change my mind.

A no is a no...and just take it like that... especially sometimes there is no 'reason' per se, its just not right!
(9/11/2011 9:05:58 PM)
68
To 64
If I knew that this website would be read only by normal and nice yidden, I would gladly post my full name and more information. Unfortunately, my background is in law, and I know that is not the case. Anyone can access this site. I would gladly communicate with anyone who contacts me, and I truly just want to help. So far, I have many many women contacting me and very few men. So to all the bochurs out there, here is a great opportunity. Email me at notashadchan@gmail.com.
(9/11/2011 9:56:51 PM)
69
To not a shadchan
There is no need for you to have to defend your wise decision to no put all your info out there. Anyone that is asking you to do that is just looking for gossip. I'm sure that once someone emails you and you know that they are forthcoming they'll know who you are. Just keep up the good work.
(9/11/2011 11:34:50 PM)
70
to #9
on the button
(9/12/2011 12:58:57 AM)
71
No Bashert and Story on Yevamos 45A
I think in general there is a misconception in regards to Bashert. This is predominantly spewed by our wonderful mechanchim/mechanchos. Less mature guys/gals have a notion that irregardless of their effort, somehow magically they will meet their Bashert. Once one actually studies the sugiya, they will see that having a Bashert is not a simple concept.

Yes, the gemara Sotah 2A says that one's first match is made in heaven. However, clearly the gemara in Moad Katan (18B) says that that one may win/lose a potential through davening (this is even applies to "zivug rishon", see Tosafos sanhedrin 22A) In addition, it would seem from Tosafos (Taanit 4A) that one is almost always matched in accordance to one's deeds. Furthermore, Ya'vitz (on Sotah 2A) believes that only when one is much younger and doesn't have deeds to be taken into account, there is indeed a Bashert. However, when one is older, even if they are unmarried, this is considered a "zivug sheini", because there are deeds to be taken into account.

In addition I wished to make you aware of a fascinating story in Yevamos (45A), where Rav ruled that the child of a gentile father and and a Jewish mother is kosher. So immediately this boy tells Rav, okay I'm Kosher, so give me your daughter. Rav replied, "even if you are as great as Yehoshua Bin Nun, I would not give you my daughter".

I think that story is an important lesson for shadchanim. Even if both parties are wonderful, if they are not for each other, why do you force them together. If someone's not for you, then their not for you, period. I don't care how great they are.


Hopefully boys start listening to chazal and actually think about getting married younger as highlighted in Kiddushin 29B (e.g. one who is not married by 20 lives his whole life thinking avairios)

(9/12/2011 1:58:37 AM)
72
Thank you
Dear anonymous writer,
thank you for giving a "thank you" and showing an appreciation on behalf of all the ungrateful girls that I have dated. It means a lot to me and makes up for all the time, money and energy I have put into this...& trust me the past 2.5 years have been really draining to say the least.

I'm not from a "frum" background, certainly not a "loser" and in my pre-"frum" days I've never had a problem getting girls.

I just can't seem to get my head around the idea of "shidduch" dating. The sort of sterotypes and labels that "baal teshuvas" attract and the fact that members of the community think they have you all figured out as a result hasn't really helped my situation much.

I'm obviously offering a biased perspective - but what can you do? I'm the guy in this situation and all I can do is be subjective. Its a given for the guy to pay for everything, to decide where to go and in addition make the conversation. All the girl needs to do is just bring herself along for the ride. But please girls, at least try to do everything possible to make the date a little more interesting - after all it's ment to be a two way street. Don't ever lead someone on or agree to go on a date with them for the first, second or tenth time because you were pressured by a parent or a shodchan. If you're unsure after about the second time - don't go on a third. If he takes you to lounge don't complain and say that you would rather have gone to a hotel or vise-versa. If he buys you soft apples on the fourth date, don't complain and say that you prefer crunchier apples...just be a little grateful that a total stranger is going out of his way to be nice to you. Be happy and appreciative. If you think the guy's boring and not sponteneous enough, remember its a two street - perhaps its merely a refelection of your own personality and nothing else.

Theres virtually no support for the guys - particularly "Baal tshuvas" and the whole experience has really shown me an ugly side to "frum" community and has turned me into a very bitter person. With Hashem's help things will turn around.
(9/12/2011 2:10:48 AM)
73
why?
It seems like it is really difficult for singles to know what they want and who they are and to be ready to make a commitment and move on with their lives. It's painful. Any ideas what this is about or how it can be helped? Someone mentioned that parents should have taught this. Could they be more specific? Most parent I know have put a lot of energy into developing and trying to guide their children (as well as looking for shidduchim for them).
I appreciate that shidduchim are a good learning experience but isn't building a life and raising family together the ultimate learning experience and deepest and most fulfilling mission? Can too much thought and self absorption be an impediment?
I wish you and all the singles hatzlacha rabbah in your quest and a lot of happiness and nachos.
(9/12/2011 2:49:30 AM)
74
The issue
The issue is that shidduch dating isn't just dating. it's a train ride that starts at "meeting" then "dating" then possibly ends at "marriage". Each decision along the way becomes more stressful. Just because I met someone does that mean I should continue dating? Just because I'm enjoying the dating does that mean we should get married?

That will inevitably lead to people staying on the train too long or getting off too soon.
(9/12/2011 9:34:41 AM)
75
to Bal tshuva
to bal tshuva ,comment #72

I feel your pain. Although I am now married now for almost 23 years, I remember shaddchannim labeling me and sending me out with certain types because I was a B.T.
You did not say your age, but I may know some girls for you. Please send me your profile if you are interested in widening your shidduch arena.
kaosrecycled@roadunner.com
(9/12/2011 11:51:51 AM)
76
#75
i mean email kaosrecycled@roadrunner.com

sorry
(9/12/2011 12:39:28 PM)
77
please!
any shadchan email me at chanieh@hotmail.com
thanks!
(9/12/2011 6:01:30 PM)
78
No Bashert and Story on Yevamos 45A
I think in general there is a misconception in regards to Bashert. This is predominantly spewed by our wonderful mechanchim/mechanchos. Less mature guys/gals have a notion that irregardless of their effort, somehow magically they will meet their Bashert. Once one actually studies the sugiya, they will see that having a Bashert is not a simple concept.

Yes, the gemara Sotah 2A says that one's first match is made in heaven. However, clearly the gemara in Moad Katan (18B) says that that one may win/lose a potential through davening (this is even applies to "zivug rishon", see Tosafos sanhedrin 22A) In addition, it would seem from Tosafos (Taanit 4A) that one is almost always matched in accordance to one's deeds. Furthermore, Ya'vitz (on Sotah 2A) believes that only when one is much younger and doesn't have deeds to be taken into account, there is indeed a Bashert. However, when one is older, even if they are unmarried, this is considered a "zivug sheini", because there are deeds to be taken into account.

In addition I wished to make you aware of a fascinating story in Yevamos (45A), where Rav ruled that the child of a gentile father and and a Jewish mother is kosher. So immediately this boy tells Rav, okay I'm Kosher, so give me your daughter. Rav replied, "even if you are as great as Yehoshua Bin Nun, I would not give you my daughter".

I think that story is an important lesson for shadchanim. Even if both parties are wonderful, if they are not for each other, why do you force them together. If someone's not for you, then their not for you, period. I don't care how great they are.


Hopefully boys start listening to chazal and actually think about getting married younger as highlighted in Kiddushin 29B (e.g. one who is not married by 20 lives his whole life thinking avairios)

(9/13/2011 12:44:59 AM)
79
wow
i cant believ i just read this. its soo true iv been rejected so many times for such small stupid things and i always thought to myself this girl does not know what she wants thank god she rejected me and i didnt have to waste my time and money on her!!
(9/23/2011 12:35:17 AM)
80
Bochur
What a beautiful girl! The man who marrys her will be one lucky guy...
I have yet to see someone like you who actually shows appreciation for all of the money spent paying for gas, parking, food etc. and trying to make convo etc. just to get turned down...
Kol Hakavod! You rock!
(12/15/2011 11:42:43 PM)
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