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Friday, 5 Adar II, 5784
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“Reporting Abuse is Not Mesirah”

"The severe prohibitions of mesirah do not apply in cases where there is evidence of abuse," Crown Heights Rabbis Yaacov Schwei and Yosef Braun write in a new letter. Full Story

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to #4
July 13, 2011 11:57 am

‘at best with borderline personality disorder’
get a grip

nightmare for families of the abuser
July 13, 2011 11:44 am

While it is our responsibility to report and stop any form of abuse in our community, in the process of stopping these devastating crimes and bringing the perpetrators to justice we need to be sensitive and have rachmanus on the family of the abusers who too have become victims by association. These families are frum, respectable yidden in our community like you and I. They can not and should not be held responsible for the crimes of their sick relatives- Rachmana letzan! This is definitely hell on earth for them as they are humiliated and shattered from this. Let us… Read more »

reporting shouls first go to rabbanim and leaders
July 13, 2011 9:20 am

have been involved in community for many years i have seen neighbors take matters in their own hands without justification. many people have had the unfortunate experience of being under city surveillance for small accidents , or some level of mistaken neglect, or other incident. its good to see that rabbonim care. but before anyone takes matters into their own hands, they should do everything in their power to contact rabbonim, principals, mashpiim, perhaps relatives etc when our family was in shidduchim and we had to know about a family, one of my fathers strong points was that if it… Read more »

Abuse
July 13, 2011 3:58 am

To #62 , Are you saying that this psak includes family theories of discipline in its purpose? If in fact this is the intention, then instances of abuse there need to be reported, too! Its worth the risk of adults having to take a look at how they are dealing with their children. maybe some are abusive, and maybe some aren’t, but again, the priority is always the children. If they are harmed psychologically or emotionally, then maybe their parents need to be educated. If they are harmed to an obviously extreme extent, then more than an education is in… Read more »

statute of limitations
July 13, 2011 3:32 am

the statute of limitations in NY for Child molestation seems like its about 5 years after you turn 18. if that time has passed what would be the best way to go?

be ready for a major foster care crisis
July 12, 2011 11:20 pm

what most do not get is that this psak is not only about molesters but can be extended to the neighbour who does not like the way you discipline your child. he now will report you. child services will be called in, and we should be ready for a great hike in the need for frum kosher foster families.
be cautious, this psak is (probably intentionally) vague and open ended.

to 60, another option
July 12, 2011 11:16 pm

you only considered 2 options, but left out the option of doing it the way we did it back in der heim: if he is a roidef, take him down.

Meir
July 12, 2011 10:16 pm

As a parent what saddens me the most is, if i god forbid found out that my child was molested would i go to the police and press charges to have him locked up? or would i keep it quiet so it doesn’t embarrass my family’s name? i dont know. and i believe most parents have that dilemma. so if i as a parent is not sure what to do. and my child knows that i would be uncertain, they mite not tell me, we truly have a big problem. even more so, the child molester knows all of this… Read more »

Tachlis
July 12, 2011 9:56 pm

The bottom line: IF CHILD VICTIMS OF ABUSE GET HELP, THEY CAN HEAL! THEY CAN GO ON TO HAVE NORMAL, HEALTHY LIVES AND MARRIAGES. It’s so very important to catch the abusers and help the children ASAP — that’s why this whole education campaign is such a great thing. Yasher Koach to the Rabbonim for the letter they’ve issued, and to all who are working to bring this vital issue to the public eye.

to #53
July 12, 2011 7:20 pm

Actually the RCV of Australia was the first to do so

the rebes sicho purim 5746
July 12, 2011 7:05 pm

why dosent anyone mention the rebes sicho purim 5746

ps the rebe uses the word min in igros and lekutay sichos

Rehab for all the molesters
July 12, 2011 6:54 pm

What we need here in brooklyn is intense rehab for all the perps. That would prevent them from commiting the same crimes in the future. Just sitting behind bars doesn’t change a person, it’s a mental illness that needs to be addressed as such.

Moshe
July 12, 2011 5:50 pm

Why hasn’t Rabbi Ozdobo come out with his own statement condemning child molestation?

To # 52
July 12, 2011 5:42 pm

#1. The Gemara in Pisachim tells us that the Torah is very careful with its language, to the point it calls a non Kosher animal “an animal which is not Tahor” instead of “an animal which is Tomei”. The question arises: the Torah uses the term Tomei many times? The answer is well known: when it comes to teaching a Din the Torah needs to be clear and straight forward. In this situation I personally think that not being straight forward and not being allowed to use the correct terms is part of the problem, and part of the cause… Read more »

Kol Hakovod
July 12, 2011 4:41 pm

LET’S GIVE CREDIT WHERE CREDIT IS DUE! THE RABONIM OF CROWN HEIGHTS ARE THE FIRST AND SO FAR ONLY RABBONIM TO COME OUT WITH SUCH A PSAK! I KNOW FOR A FACT OF OTHER CHASIDISHE ORGANIZATIONS WHERE MAJOR ABUSE HAS BEEN GOING ON AND IS PUSHED UNDER THE RUG! SO KUDOS TO RABBI BRAUN AND SCHWEI FOR HAVING THE COURAGE TO DO WHAT NO ONE ELSE HAS DONE!

the terminology
July 12, 2011 4:32 pm

the use of language is simply inappropriate. frum jews NEVER use the actual hebrew words to describe the issue at hand. the very same message could have been deliverd using more refined terminology.

What is a 'rodef"?
July 12, 2011 1:06 pm

Many commenter clearly don’t understand what the meaning of a “Rodef” is. The letter states clearly, that where there is credible evidence of CSA on has the OBLIGATINO to report it. The letter ADDS (in addition to being required to report the perpetrator of התעללות מינית to the authorities), if you catch him in the act – WHILE he is molesting someone – he has the din of a “rodef” and you may stop him by causing him bodily harm (if there is no other way to stop him). This detail only applies at the actual time of the crime.… Read more »

Questions
July 12, 2011 12:10 pm

Is there a thought-out, INFORMED plan to deal with this malignancy once and for all? Does it include follow-through? Can the denial be overcome for the sake of our children, or will this just go on and on because there are those who can not handle the truth? Where are the priorities? Are there those who do not even think that acting in such ways is not wrong? Are there others who think that there ARE those who do not see anything wrong with it? Check Halacha, et al. What has become of us, that we do not take care… Read more »

Yashar Koach to the Rabbi's
July 12, 2011 12:05 pm

we could tell that young blood joined the bais din.

Re "at the time"
July 12, 2011 11:55 am

This means that at the time the molester does the molesting he is considered as such, and it is implied that the ensuing time keeps him named as such. It means that moment is when you name him a molester, and this doesn’t change from that time on. It is not the literal meaning of “at the time”, but rather, that’s when he can be called a criminal, and not before.

Kol Tzedek
July 12, 2011 9:42 am

Kol Tzedek is a program in the Brooklyn DA’s office, headed by Henna White, specifically created to serve the frum community. Any suspicion of abuse or molestation can be brought to their attention; the caller can remain anonymous, and the matter will be dealt with in privacy and with sensitivity. Kol Tzedek works closely with frum organizations such as Ohel, Jewish Board of Family Services, Met Council…

anon
July 12, 2011 9:06 am

I was abused as a child and I wish someone had spoken up for me…..it had to be kept quiet. I was, after all, a kid……no one cared.

For the most part readers of this site give credit where credit is due
July 12, 2011 7:59 am

Thank you Rabbis for addressing a very serious problem.
I will add if the elections for rabonim was the cause of this letter it was all wotrth it.(Dayainu)

Pedophiles You are put on notice if you need help get it before you bring shame on yourselfs and your families.

Rabbi Osdobo's boycott is hurting himself!
July 12, 2011 3:33 am

I’m sorry for moving of topic, but this has to be said. this is such a important issue to our community, and if Rabbi Osdoba wont voice his opinion because he is boycotting the other Rabbonim, then he is effectively useless and irrelevant, it makes to difference whether he is right or wrong. if for every important issue the Rabbonim have to deal with he will run away and boycott it, saying “i disagree with him..” that leaves him dealing with nothing of use to our community, again I’m not saying he is wrong, just stating the fact. its better… Read more »

oy vay
July 12, 2011 12:28 am

This is not about politics, this is about a serious problem in our community, that has been ignored for years, it has nothing to do with R’ Braun or R’ Schwai or anyone else, it has to do with the persistence of a victim that bugged them till they agreed to do it, which by the way all 3 Rabbis refused in the beginning. if you have been a victim of abuse call the hotline 212-844-1495

CSA (Child Abuse)Crime Unit
July 12, 2011 12:14 am

If you have information regarding child molestation please go directly to the NYPD CSA Unit @ (718)330-5600.

If you have a plausible account of child abuse they will ask you to come down immediately (in Brooklyn) and after speaking to you if they believe you and its possible to arrest, they will do it on the spot.

Please save our community and our children.

to # 34
July 11, 2011 11:59 pm

Right on!!!

at the time of the attack means allways
July 11, 2011 11:57 pm

the word “beshaas maase” apply to the word “rodef” and do not apply to the word “mitalel”
that means that the abuser is consider all the time as a ”rodef bishas maase” (i dont see need for the rabonnim to clarify !!! ppl just need to know how to read from a psak)

To #32
July 11, 2011 11:38 pm

Because he is not part of this anymore.

Lets Lend support
July 11, 2011 11:35 pm

Yasher Koach to the Neshei Chabad Newsletter for being in the forefront of addressing this hushed evil. Yasher Koach to th Rabbonim for starting to deal with this evil. Continued Hatzlocho. Waiting axniously for Moshiach when this evil will be erased from the face of the earfth

WHO ARE THEY
July 11, 2011 11:02 pm

#12 If you care about your fellow brothers, tell us who they are so we can atleast attempt to protect our children from them!!! NAME THEM, PLEEEEASE!

Bais Rivkah Programs
July 11, 2011 10:14 pm

The issue of abuse has been addressed several times in public in the last few years. The first event was at teh Rubashkin home organized by Bronya Schaffer. After that there were numerous events in the Museum and then this last year two events for the whole community in Bais RIvkah also organized by Bronya Schaffer. In all the events she brought in expert speakers to educate our community. This public letter from our bais din is another step along the path already started in o ur community first by the Nshei Newsletter and then by Bronya Schaffer. I want… Read more »

the reason.......
July 11, 2011 10:10 pm

that they just came out now,is because rabbi braun is the only rov who had the courage to stand up for this terrible aveirah and fight it head on! i have a gut feeling in the next week or 2 we r in for some shocking news!

Rabbi Osdaba didnt sign Because:
July 11, 2011 9:58 pm

Rabbi Osdaba didnt sign on this piece of paper because the head says “Beth Din of CH” and it is signed by Rabbi Brown. If Rabbi Osdaba were to sign this together with Rabbi Brown on such a letter head, this would mean he accepts Rabbi Brown as the third Rov of CH, and he simply doesn’t, as he has written himself and is well known.

Thank you COL and TheYeshiva.net for bringing this issue to public discussion!
July 11, 2011 9:51 pm

There is no doubt in my mind that it is also thanks to Chaim Itche Drizin’s video talks that have raised awareness of the severity of the crime and plight of the victims.

Thank you COL and TheYeshiva.net for bringing these classes to light.

Hershel Moss, Crown Heights, Brooklyn Resident
July 11, 2011 9:15 pm

Why didn’t Rav Osdaba sign this?

Thank you Rabbies
July 11, 2011 9:15 pm

This may be the greatest achievement you will be zoiche too in your life. There are at least HUNDREDS of people in our community that have been abused as children. The affect on the victims is catastrophic. in many cases they’re anger, pain, hurt and guilt which they suffer with on a daily basis makes then turn to drug and alcohol abuse, many of them are depressed and turn away from Yiddishkit. Even those that show no outward signs of trauma continue to suffer for the rest of they’re lives. There may not be a disproportional amount of perverts in… Read more »

to 12
July 11, 2011 8:25 pm

who are these three why are tainting the whole community either speak up or be quite causing a damage to everyone

They should clarify
July 11, 2011 8:02 pm

There are several comments posted that correctly assign the designation of “rodef” to any molester even after the attack. By the rabbis using the language “at the teim of attack” it misleads the readers to think that after the attack he is no longer considered a rodef. The rabbonim should redo this psak to clarify this point.

follow through
July 11, 2011 7:59 pm

Great so they say report it. Are they going to follow through? We had a situation in which the school was allowing abuse to go on and we could not get a single Rav to follow through to the end on the situation. All agreed what was happening was abuse and assur but they all ran the other directions. Whats the point of such a letter if they won’t actually help anyone in the end?

a mandared reporter
July 11, 2011 7:56 pm

under the mandated reprter law,teachers,principals ,child care worlkers etc have been legally bound to report suspected child abuse since1976!!!! what took us so long???

What about the people that don't believe?
July 11, 2011 7:18 pm

What about the people who don’t believe that abuse happened and totally ignore and deny? I wonder how they will feel when it hits them close to home? I’m sure they will not keep quiet and push it under the rug…..

I don't get it
July 11, 2011 7:10 pm

What is this letter all about?
Did people think they needed permission to report child abusers?
What happened all of a sudden?
What possessed the rabbis to issue this letter?

Rav Osdaba
July 11, 2011 6:50 pm

Rav Osdaba didn’t sign this because he wasn’t shown it! Simple politics.

Thank you!
July 11, 2011 6:39 pm

It’s very important that people know that they have a halachic obligation to report abuse.

“At the time of attack” means that the abuser is considered to always be attacking the victim, and therefore constantly dangerous.
NOT that he is only dangerous when abusing the victim.

Thank You!
July 11, 2011 6:22 pm

I am grateful to the Rabbonim for leading us and validating our very real fears and concerns.
Yashar Koach,
Toshav Hash’chuna

"rodef at the time of the attack"
July 11, 2011 6:21 pm

Maybe this was the rabbonims intention:
The halacha of Rodef is that you may injure or even kill the attacker, whatever is necessary to stop him from attacking.
This, of course, only applies “at the time of the attack”, after the attack, or before it has actually begun, you could simply call the police…
(However, my personal opinion is that once there is evidence of intention for abuse, the halocho of rodef applies; the strongest proof of intention is after an actual attack….)

Att: 18
July 11, 2011 6:18 pm

Talking of a “sneezy” [sic] political move… Calling this a “political move” is as sleazy and political as it gets. Shame on you.

And so?
July 11, 2011 6:16 pm

Anyone who had to ask a shaaloh before reporting abuse needs his head examined. If it was your son or daughter you’d want the creep murdered, so why ask permission to report it to the police? These sickos need to be named and shamed & their families will just have to deal with it.

This kind of thing everyone runs to Rabbonim. Walking half naked down Kingston or not keeping the dinim…no problem.

another sneezy move
July 11, 2011 5:57 pm

abusing a sensative issue, to futher political agendas. totaly transparent.

does this psak apply to melamdim too?
July 11, 2011 5:57 pm

if so, is it universal?

to 12
July 11, 2011 5:10 pm

If what you say is true, dont just claim that it is true (which will make he rabbonim look bad) buttrather go there, get proof and show the world who these terrible people are

"evidence of abuse"
July 11, 2011 4:41 pm

I think this psak din is very long overdue, and it could not have happened without the charisma and chachma of our new Rav working together so well with Rav Schwei. I wonder if any other chassidic community has ever put forth such a psak din. However, I would like to know who will determine where there is “evidence of abuse”. My ex- perience with our yeshivos is total denial. When will our minahalim be forthcoming and not coverup what has been happening in our schools? There is always the fear of ruining someone’s life versus remaining silent and not… Read more »

rodef
July 11, 2011 4:38 pm

A child physical abuser is not only a rodef at the time of attack, they are always a rodef, because neither Torah nor modern science has discovered the means of turning back the mental switch in perpretators that makes abuse an urgent and irresistable need that never fades. All statistics loudly scream: Once an abuser, always an abuser. Unless they are physically prevented from attacking by jail or other real means, they will always attack again.
Please let the Rabbis update their statement to make it more realistic.

"at the time of the attack"
July 11, 2011 4:35 pm

what is that supposed to mean? you cant notify the police after the attack? Someone please clarify! azkir al hatzion!

Really?
July 11, 2011 4:31 pm

There are at least 3 well known pedophiles in positions of influence within the CH community, I challenge one of these “Rabbonim” TO HAND THEM OVER TO THE COPS. Or at least give a private ruling allowing one of them to be handed over, but they won’t, as this is all fluff without any substance. Until they do so this piece of paper will remain just that, a stunt to legitimize the new “Rov” and an attempt to marginalize the only real Rov on the CH B”D. It’s shocking that there are people out there in our community willing to… Read more »

Kol HaKavod
July 11, 2011 4:19 pm

Kol HaKavod and Yasher Koach to both Rabbis. But, by the way, I find it pathetic that we had to wait untill today to finally have some CH Rabbonim paskening what was obvious from the very beginning: it is not Mesirahh to report child abusers.

let's give credit where it is due
July 11, 2011 4:15 pm

the N’shei Chabad Newsletter came out with its landmark article on child abuse and molestation in September of 2006. NCN was the first! yasher koach to the Rabbanim and may Hashem grant them success in publicizing this. thank you collive for spreading this important letter.

about time
July 11, 2011 4:08 pm

what about spousal abuse?where is that letter?

Yesh li Rav
July 11, 2011 4:07 pm

It’s amazing that since Harav Braun and Harav Schviei signed the psak- Harav Osdoba would not sign.

why now just waking up?
July 11, 2011 4:07 pm

This should have been made clear years ago, people are always afraid to say anything about abuse that they know about, whether about themselves or others.
And the consequences are very bad, as can be seen by the number of troubled youth as well as adults who never came forward about this terrible subject.

Non Crown Heightser
July 11, 2011 3:49 pm

This could perhaps be first meaningful letter and psak din from the Beis Din in some time.

fantastic
July 11, 2011 3:48 pm

this is what contemporary halacha is all about. How to find our place within context of the larger judicial system and process.
Although most individuals blessed with common sense would not think twice before this ruling on this same subject there are many who are not as individually blessed. Mazal Tov for this important step in the halachic process.

remember
July 11, 2011 3:47 pm

remember if you can, that R’Manis Friedman started coming out on this issue. Now its growing. Revealing the truth and dealing with it.
If these children aren’t saved, they could end up…at best….being Borderline personality disorder. I don’t want to think of what else could be…..HaShem Yishmoireinu

not doing enough
July 11, 2011 3:47 pm

With all the stories that are surfacing lately, the schools are just not doing enough, hopefully this letter will be a first step to change

Kol Ha'Kovod
July 11, 2011 3:44 pm

It’s about time the Bais Din tackles issues that are rellevant, importnat to the community. Maybe it’s the new blood, or just plain common sense. Either way, I hope this is the begining of a new reality for our community.

Finaly
July 11, 2011 3:43 pm

Finaly the rabbies are coming out in this issue, it’s about time!!

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