Dec 21, 2010
Is Going to College a Crime?

A girl looking for a shidduch asks: Why is it that if one doesn't follow the exact 'system', they are considered a 'bum'?

Dear COLlive,

I am an avid reader of COLlive.com and I think it is a great way for people in the community to communicate with each other. The following is a simple letter of a girl's confusion in this dark world.

So I will start from here:

I am your typical Crown Heights girl who did well in school both academically and behaviorally.

I went to a top seminary and can more or less say went through the whole system. SYSTEM. Now that's where my problem comes in.

Everyone needs to follow the same exact system and make sure that they fit into the perfect mold.

I'll explain:

When I came back home from seminary, I wasn't sure what I wanted to do with my life but like everyone else I looked for a job.

Now, what can a Lubavitch girl who has no experience do? That's right! A teacher or an assistant.

So every year there are 400 girls looking to be teachers…
In any case I used that year to do some self searching. I figured out that I don't want to be work in the education field.

I guess I'm just not built for that.

It took me a while until I figured out what I want to learn but that is where my problem came in.

The field that I was interested in was only offered in a non- Jewish college. I totally understand that the Rebbe is against college and that girls shouldn't go to college. But Tachlis, the boys don't have the proper tools to get a good job. You cannot just say "Oh, you need to rely on Hashem". True, we need to rely on Hashem but we need to do our part! I can't just be a teacher and make a low salary and be expected at the same time to cover all of the expenses that comes along with being a Frum Jew! Where is the logic?? That is why so many families in Crown Heights are in debt! I'm sure this isn't the best solution and some of you will still say "The Rebbe knows and still said it". Ok, but I'm not a tzaddekes yet and this is how I feel.

In addition, I also used that year to figure out who am I and what type of person I see myself marrying.

According to me there are three levels for boys and for girls:

1. Very Chassidish:

Girls: I would characterize them as the ones who learn Sichos during the week, say Chitas and Rambam every day, want to go on Shlichus, aren't into anything that doesn't involve the Torah, Rebbe or Chassidus.

Boys: I would characterize them as the ones who sit in 770 and learn all day, only listen to niggunim, white shirt and black hat… are pretty much thinking ‘learning' all day (which is amazing).

2. Regular Chassidish:

Girls: I would characterize them as the ones who daven every day, listen to music other than niggunim (Mattisyahu…) think other things than learning… (Like touring, having fun, news, shopping…)

Boys: I would characterize them as the ones who go to Mikvah, daven in a minyan three times a day, set aside time to learn, walk around most of the time with a jacket, not necessarily with a white shirt, plans on working in the future and are more open-minded.

3. Chilled:

I would characterize them as the ones who walk around with flip flops in the summer, the men touch their beard, want a TV in the house and so forth.

I have been told by many people that these levels don't exist. There is either level 1 or level 3. There is no middle level. It's impossible.

Is there really no middle level? Are girls like me just supposed to settle for someone higher than them or lower than them?

Why can't there be a middle level? Why can't the mold be flexible?

There are many different types of people out there in the world and they cannot all fit into the same mold.

My question is:

1. Are there really no middle boys out there?

2. Why is it that if one doesn't follow the exact system that the world is following, they are considered a bum (even though they have never gone off the Derech)?

3. Why is it so bad to go and learn and bring home a respectable paycheck so that I don't have to be struggling in debt when it's time to pay for sky high tuition prices, rent and all that comes in the package to be a Frum Jew.

To some of you it might sound like a girl who is just miserable in life and wants to complain her life away.

It's your right to think like that.

My purpose in writing this letter is so that I can find out if there are other people like me who feel trapped and to get advice / encouragement from them.

Thank you for taking time to read this,
A girl who wants some answers

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Opinions and Comments
1
A girl out there
I'm in total agreement and hear what ur saying. although i don't think i would nec have defined the catagories with the exact definitions used above, i never the less agree with the concept, and i do think there is a middle ground. just for some reason that middle ground is more "acceptable" for girls. I am stuck in the direction in life stage squandering for help and direction, and at the same time getting shidduchim suggestions that just make it more confusing. if you find the answer--let us out there know! have bitachon-it'll all come together in the end!
(12/22/2010 9:56:59 PM)
2
um okaay
I think that their are many many people between "level" one and two, and even "level two and three. where did you get such levels from?
(12/22/2010 9:57:08 PM)
3
anon
so youre trying to understand peoples prejudices? good luck!
(12/22/2010 9:58:15 PM)
4
Bum @*#$&
I will never forget this word(BUM) when it came out of Mrs M. mouth describing me. Very hurtful.
Today B'H i support many moisdos around the globe
Shame
(12/22/2010 10:00:44 PM)
5
simplistic categorization
this girl is as simplistic as they come.
fyi, there are more bochurim and girls in the gray middle area than on either extreme and there are many shades of gray
(12/22/2010 10:05:41 PM)
6
"Are there really no middle boys out there?"
Don't believe the myths. Most of the guys who are what u call "very chassidish" are really "middle guys", there are very few who are "level 1". Anyone who tells u otherwise is simply out of touch and/or gullible.

A bochur in the know
(12/22/2010 10:06:39 PM)
7
An attempt to address your question
I feel your pain and am in the same boat. I went to graduate school which is totally different than college and have "friends" back in NY and LA that characterize my move as have fallen off the just path. I think to myself people that matter don't care, and people that care don't matter.
(12/22/2010 10:09:03 PM)
8
wow
you took my thoughts and put it into words!! thank you!
(12/22/2010 10:09:59 PM)
9
Middle type girl
I really appreciate your article and agree with you on most of the things you say. I feel the same way about bringin in a parnasah. I personally feel like im 23, single, and i dunno when im gonna get married or meet the right guy, as of now it feels like never, sorry Hashem, I believe in miracles, but if not for that i dunno...it seems kind of hopeless. Anyhow, how it used to be is that by 19 the girl was married or engaged and before you knew it she had kids. Nowadays, it doesnt happen as quicky sow hats a girl supposed to do if she's not cut out to be a teracher or wtvr in the frum field?
I think its an ongoing struggle, and always going to be controversial. However you slice it, going out into the worls (college etc...) is always a risk on your yiddishkeit, because in a lot of ways, its very conflicting to how we are supposed to live and behave as Jews and Chassidim. I think the issue you are discussing is so relevent. I don't beleive in lables though. Is a person bad for going to college? Well it all depends on the motives, the reason why etc etc....and that should be looked into during research. there are ways to find that out.
Anyhow, there's also more to a perosn than going to college or a profession. I don't necesarrily want a guy with a degree, but if he does have one, I would like to know why, whats he planning on doing iwth it etc... and what are his hashkofos.
Every thing else is just details that you discuss on a date.
PPl should quite being so uptight, if they want a girl that only has chassidish inyonim on her mind than fine, someone going to college may not be that girl, or not.
College is poisenous, but i have many talents and interests and some of them require college, and sometimes you can get into the feild without college if you really want to and try hard at it.
Anyhow, I wish you luck, and I wish I knew who you are, very well written and expressed. YOu should talk to Manis friedman, He always has a wise word to say about these things, he da bomb.
As you can tell, englsih is not my favorate thing, Sorry for all the spelling mistakes.
Peace out sista
g'luck
xoxo
(12/22/2010 10:11:50 PM)
10
Regular chasidish
I know lots of guys like this who are 22-24.
(12/22/2010 10:18:32 PM)
11
Thanks for letting me know of my rights ;)
practically there are more levels.
Ideally there are 2 levels. For example what their focus point is chasidish or not.

this is my first thought

thanks for writing opinion are cool.
(12/22/2010 10:19:23 PM)
12
Very well written.
To answer your question, YES the middle level indeed does exist.
(12/22/2010 10:20:33 PM)
13
im in the same position as u!!
i dont have an answer!
(12/22/2010 10:22:22 PM)
14
Boy whos thinking the same thing
Dont worry there are boys out there whp thin the same.
(12/22/2010 10:24:02 PM)
15
RESIDENT
Yes, today is certainely not a crime to go to college and our rabbonim, mashpiim and rebbeim should encourage it. If a child wants to pursue advance studies and not to become the classic pattern morah, shliach, or failure bcose he or she wasn't a good student ... (eventough there is no shlichus job today!!) for education and to make a better living parnassa not on welfare as half of crown heights does. Like boys and girls shouldn't be critisize as a SIN of their life to go college, the funniest part in the storie is when they become well established we will recognize them for their money then shnooring them will be permissible and their money chol studies will become KOSHER.
(12/22/2010 10:26:08 PM)
16
are you kidding me
There are many many levels. Not two levels. And not three levels. I come from a large family ka''h. Many are married, some are in shidduchim now, and some too young. We are all frum Jews. Period. Some are more chassidish. Some are more with it. Some are very frum but not so chasidish. Every person is at their own individual place. We do't fall into two or three baskets. That sound ludicrous to me.
One guy will daven three times a day and go to mikvah once a week. He won't touch his beard, wear flip flops, or listen to non-jewish music. However, he might love watching sports games and will watch regularly. Which basket would you put him into?
(12/22/2010 10:29:47 PM)
17
SIMPLE QUESTION!
DO YOU HAVE A MASHPIA???????????
THE REBBE HAD A BAKASHA NAFSHIS THAT EVERYONE SHOULD HAVE A MASHPIA!
YOU SHOULD NOT BE ASKING QUESTIONS LIKE THIS TO STRANGERS WHO DON'T KNOW YOUR SPECIFIC SITUATION!
(12/22/2010 10:32:54 PM)
18
Quite right
You are quite right.
(12/22/2010 10:33:08 PM)
19
I get you....
I remember when I was in yeshiva wondering, "How will I be able to support my family?" Around that time I read a few sichos from the Rebbe that totally removed my doubts. The Rebbe just spoke so strongly about how you shouldn't worry about these things. ("The Friedeker Rebbe ran this institution is his life time and is also running it now. And he worries about all the aspects of a bochur from a shidduch to parnassah...... and parnassah daka b'harchavah". It's not an exact quote but that somes up what the rebbe said in a sicha.)

So here goes, if you don't trust the Rebbe, (which by going to college shows that you don't) then why should you date somebody who is chassidish. And also with all due respect aren't you ashamed of yourself a little bit that after being raised in a chassidishe community and went to chabad schools, and learning chassidus, that you don't trust the that Rebbe will take care of you? Secondly if somebody really cares, then if their main interest is something which requires going to non-jewish college then they should find something else.

"True, we need to rely on Hashem but we need to do our part! I can't just be a teacher and make a low salary and be expected at the same time to cover all of the expenses that comes along with being a Frum Jew! Where is the logic?? That is why so many families in Crown Heights are in debt! I'm sure this isn't the best solution and some of you will still say "The Rebbe knows and still said it". Ok, but I'm not a tzaddekes yet and this is how I feel. "

I think you should start spending some time learning some sichos with the grade A chassidishe girls to reeducate yourself. By the way I don't mean this in a criticizing way at all. It just takes a lot of hanging around the right people and putting your own opinions and thoughts aside and listening to what they have to say which will nourish your faith and trust in the rebbe.
(12/22/2010 10:34:33 PM)
20
been there, done that
As someone who attended a "non- Jewish college" for a number of years, I can guarantee you that such environment will irrevesibly poison your soul etc.

With so many possibities of studying a career within a relatively frum enviroment, you have to ask yourself if the isuue is really "college" or the issue is using a earning a living as an excuse to feed the yetzer harah. Hatzlacha.
(12/22/2010 10:35:17 PM)
21
Crown Heights resident
Can't wait to read all the comments.
I too went through the system and did not go to college b/c it wasn't Chassidish!!
Now my husband is out of a job and I have no skills to even try and help out. To work for $8 an hour and give it all to a babysitter is out of the question. What are people like us supposed to do?
This system is really unfair and I think that it is TOTALLY irresponsible for parents to spend enormous amounts of $$ on sem when the girl comes back without any qualifications whatsoever!!
Girls and boys, think about your future before you get married! it is so much harder to go to school after you are married and have kids!!
(12/22/2010 10:37:29 PM)
22
You certainly aren't alone..............
If there's no middle way then everyone in the middle will end up in the 'chill' level. Because from the middle it's much easier to slide down to the 3rd level then go up to the 1st level. It's up to us ANASH and our leaders (what leaders) to make sure and insist that there's in fact a middle road or else risk the likelihood of all middle of the roaders, boy and girl to slide further away.
(12/22/2010 10:39:18 PM)
23
NO NON SENSE
Dear young Lady.
The problem is not that there is no middle, the problem is that everyone thinks they are in the middle,
The 770 guy that learns a lot but likes a colored shirt, and face book thinks hes in the middle,

The great bocher that dresses chasidish but loves to tour and watch a movie online once in three months, thinks hes the middle.

And then there was me i davened every day,in shul, but trimmed and wore jeans, and i thought i was in the middle.

My point dont listen to anyone, Go after what you feel is right for you, do what you feel will make you a better person.

It's extremely hard in the world and if you could give a helping hand, then all the power to you.


Facts
80 Percent of men and woman can live happily together,
the other 20 percent is the part of marriage that you have to work on.

(12/22/2010 10:41:21 PM)
24
yaakov
you are not a bum if you go to college you are just not a lubavitcher chossid!! this topic is not up for debate all you need to do is look at the rebbes letters. hashem gives you the parnassha not the college!
(12/22/2010 10:43:49 PM)
25
maybe this will help
The Rebbe has many shluchim. The Rebbe has shluchim who sit and learn in 770 and think about pure things. The Rebbe has shluchim who are into business and who like to travel. The Rebbe has shluchim who don't have full beards and who wear flip flops. All of 'em, they all, each and every one, belong to the Rebbe. Go full steam ahead, pursue what you want to pursue, and try very hard to find somebody ready who is willing to take that journey with you. Go after it.
(12/22/2010 10:44:21 PM)
26
to the writer
look at all the guys and girls that went to college and you will know why!
(12/22/2010 10:44:25 PM)
27
Fendell
Rabbi manis was in town for a week why didn't you ask him?
(12/22/2010 10:47:41 PM)
28
My Take
Thanks for your great letter. I agree 100%. There are MANY boys and girls who fit the #2 you describe. There are quite a few boys who have college degrees themselves and are pretty chassidish, though I think in terms of tznius it's harder for a boy than a girl to go to college...
(12/22/2010 10:48:31 PM)
29
Don't Despair
I was also a category #2 as you put it and can tell you that there are boys of the same level. I know because I married one B"H. I did get married later (28) and it wasn't so easy, but I don't think that has anything to do with the issue you're writing about. They do exist, keep looking and I wish you find your bashert very soon.
PS. Something to keep in mind, most, if not all boys do end up chilling a little after they get married, so never worry that a boy is too frum for you. That's a good thing!!
(12/22/2010 10:51:13 PM)
30
A MOTHER OF KIDS IN THEIR TEENS AND TWENTIES
YOUR ARTICLE AND ARGUMENTS ARE VERY LOGICAL. THERE'S ONE THING THAT YOU DON'T TAKE INTO CONSIDERATION. WHEN YOUNG SINGLE PEOPLE GO INTO A SECULAR ENVIRONMENT THERE IS A VERY GOOD CHANCE THAT THEY WILL BE INFLUENCED BY THE ENVIRONMENT. Most people think that this won't happen to them, but inevitably there are many changes in the person. There are opinions that if at least the person is married, they are more anchored and won't be as influenced in the secular environment. When a person does take that step, it is a serious one and there usually is a price to pay. Of course it's much easier to go to school when you are single, don't have kids and bills to pay. It is not easy when part of you wants to be practical while the other part wants to maintain it's Yiddishkiet and Chassidishkiet at all costs. Good luck to you!
(12/22/2010 10:52:52 PM)
31
bochur 770
If our parents will encourage and accept openely the college issue with our kids and not too refuse it will be a different game. The boys needs a lots of encouragment and support not to face the YERIDA IN YIRAS SHAMAYIM and will become modern, chas vshalom. B"H our girls are stronger, frumer and more educated than the boys in our community that's what explain our crisis in shiduchim too!!!!!!!!!.so please wake up and smell the coffee!!!!!
(12/22/2010 10:54:26 PM)
32
category 1 chassidishe bochur writes... (but maybe not b/c I'm on the finsternet)
The Rebbe explains that making a Keili for parnassah is only because Hashem said to do so. Truthfully, the Keili doesn't create the Bracha, it's the conduit for what Hashem Set aside for you. Certainly, if college is not the place for an observant Jew, it will not be the right keili for the parnassah biharchava ehich Hashem surely has in store for you. As far as finding the keili in something else besides teaching, the Rebbe established Chabad houses with so many different types of positions, not only accommodating the 'jew out there', but us, his tayere Chassidim. You want to be professional by modern standards, learn from someone more experienced than you, ask for help(as you are doing right here- eizehu chacham haroeh es hanolad), and try an online course! Much Hatzlacha in using your talents for Avodas Hashem in an upright way.
(12/22/2010 10:54:26 PM)
33
there are very few # 1.
mostly are # 2. actually between 2 & 3. there are quite a few guys that go to touro college.
(12/22/2010 10:54:31 PM)
34
my 2 cents
Fugetaboutit

Labels and stigmas.. who gives y'know ? just go date.. and if someone wont date you or marry then they arent bashert.

Hey,
just be yourself.. too many frauds and fakers.. dont worry about what people say..
(12/22/2010 10:55:29 PM)
35
We Exist!
Don't worry there are plenty of young men in the middle of the road.

So tell me - what would a person think about the new speed dating in Crown Heights?

It's to sad that we don't have our Rebbe. As far as I see it we have to take what he said and leave it as is.

Sure its tough and does not always seem to add up. So why not talk to a Mashpia/Rabbi and get yourself a "heter"?

Heres how I see it: Aside from violence and thievery (including being dishonest) do whatever you want to do.

Its about time people care more about fellow humans walking this earth then silver foil on their counter tops during Pesach and saying Kiras Shemah on time. (Before you smack in the face for being a heretic, hear me out)

Growing up I got more and more disgusted with "Chassidishe" Bochurim who walk with a hat and jacket sans deodorant wherever they go but have total disrespect for other people (especially people that don't look the same as they do) This "holy" Bochurim think its fine to "borrow" items from their local Wal Mart "gemach" and return after use. I don't wanna go on and on but in short...

If G-d is all so powerful and mighty - he can handle someone sinning against him. However human beings have emotions and you cant just role them over. Little scams here, talking nasty about others there and as long as you say 3 Chapters of Rambam -all is well.

I say "nay nay". Bain Adom Le'chaviroy is more important then anything else. Ask Rabi Akiva and Hillel.

So to the genuinely Chassidishe Bochurim out there - Rock on!

As far as those that are "chilled" - knock yourself out - have fun - enjoy life. The only thing I would say is don't forget where its at and respect those that go the extra mile and try their best to remain pure on this planet. Their fight is not an easy one. Do as you please but do it humbly. You don't have to push your "grubkeit" in other peoples faces. Just do your thing. Don't drag others down.

My rant is coming to an end Il just end with this:

Id much rather a "bum" that treats others with respect then a "chassidishe" jew who will run you over. (Of course he wears a "Tzitzis bendle")

L'chaim!
(12/22/2010 10:58:05 PM)
36
there are very few # 1.
mostly are # 2. actually between 2 & 3. there are quite a few guys that go to touro college. lets hook up.
(12/22/2010 10:58:08 PM)
37
Please Read... Its the Answers..
Firstly, about college, the Rebbe instructed us to have a Mashpia, and the Mashpia will decide what is appropriate for you to do. Secondly, about shidduchim, there was middle girls, so there are middle boys (ps you could be ultra chassidish and have a decent salary) Thirdly, about the "System" it is set up not to mold you, but to give a structure of what you should be doing. If you don't fit in, speak to your Mashpia and find alternatives.
(12/22/2010 10:59:03 PM)
38
Good luck girl
Go get a carear and work a proper job. I promise I won't criticize or cateogrise you. Kudos
(12/22/2010 10:59:44 PM)
39
Self Searching?
I thought you said you took a year off to do some self-searching? If you still have these questions you haven't found yourself. Keep searching. You will find you. And when you do, you will see that these questions aren't uniquely you. They are byproducts of the place you are in. When you pass this stage, the questions will be irrelevant but "you" will always matter. So get in touch with your inner values. Don't compromise em. Stay true to yourself and the doubts, labels, confusion, lousy phases, and tough questions will fade away. They will. They always do. And when the boy for you comes around, words like "the middle" and "the system" will have no bearing on whether you live your life in accordance with your values. Only "you" can have a bearing on a life lived with value and meaning. So get in touch. Study Chassidus daily. Never stop smiling. Always believe in G-d. Introspect. And live happy. (PS Get yourself a mentor you trust. This is a poor place to do soul searching :) ).
(12/22/2010 11:00:51 PM)
40
Thank you.
You've taken the words out of my mouth.
Thank you so much for taking the time to write this.
(12/22/2010 11:02:28 PM)
41
Girl in similar position
Great article, really well written although I don't agree with EVERYTHING you wrote ...I hope you find your place and your bashert very soon.
(12/22/2010 11:06:29 PM)
42
YOUR Right
Everyone says G-d will take care of you then they turn around and say make a keli (VESSEL) your making your keli good for you and there are plenty of middle guys i promise
(12/22/2010 11:06:36 PM)
43
similar situation
i pretty much feel the same way.
i went through the "system" as you said.
and, after a year of trying out teaching, i realized that it is not for me.
i did very well throughout my school years (both academically and behavior wise), as well, i am very strong in my beliefs (tznius...)
after going through the system, i decided to pursue a career that involves the need to study in college.
by doing so, i hope to be successful and , when the time comes, not have to rely solely on the paycheck of my husband.
my dream is to be able to support schools who do so much for us . but this, in most cases has to be done through getting an education.
unfortunately, this leaves me "in the middle". i am religious and i guess between "regular chassidish" and "chilled".
people are slightly shocked when they hear that i am in college instead of teaching or doing other things that are expected.
i must say, i am in NO WAY encouraging others to go to college. one must really think about it before, discuss it with a mashpia or something, and make sure that he/she is firm in their beliefs. otherwise, college can have a horrible effect on the person.
on the other hand, in my opinion, if a person goes in with the right intentions and strong emunah, then it can be a real kiddush Hashem.
just an example of this, recently, i was in a class with this guy who had no idea i was Jewish. at times hed say stereotypical things about Jews (and things that werent always really nice). one day, the teacher asked if anyone was Jewish and asked to explain something.
being the only frum jew, i answered the question to the best of my ability.
later, that guy came to me and said that i changed the way he sees Jews. he has a new found respect for them and thinks that Jews are very intelligent.
so i thought that that was a big kiddush hashem.
to get back to your request for advice from others in a similar situation, i think that just as there are girls with this problem, there definitely are boys with this problem.
it all comes down to one thing though.
TRUST IN HASHEM.
whatever He wants to happen will happen.
whether you go to college or not, whether you are chassidish or chilled, Hashem has His plans for you.
and all you have to do is have EMUNAH
(12/22/2010 11:08:09 PM)
44
a middle boy out there
Very well said as a guy it has been rather frustrating. on the one hand were supposed to folow ''the system'' but then after we get married were stuck cuz now here we are with a wife to support, and soon a family, and no means to do so because weve been sitting in 770 and could not chas vshalom go to (gasp) college to get a decent job, so you canwin eiether way. agree that there are definetely different levels would even say tat there is a level in between your level 2 and 3 but wongo there now.hope you and other girls with this concern will be glad to know that there are ''middle guys'' oit there sharing your concern. hatzlacha to us all.
(12/22/2010 11:09:42 PM)
45

you have all the rights in the world to go to college and get a good job and paycheck instead of struggling like most of these people do to pay for tuition,rent,mortgage,food and basic necessities. i don't blame u for wanting to get a normal job as opposed to working as a teacher and getting minimum wage and scraping out their money...
(12/22/2010 11:09:45 PM)
46
think inside your box
well im not sure if this advice will help you but here goes.Firstly dont worry so much about the labels /categories - know where YOU stand and where YOU are going in life and then when you start dating you will have a clearer picture of what yo want.Also remember the whole dating thing means that you will go out with boys not exactly in the "category "you are lookig for but that is all part of the process in finding your zivug.Focus on the good qualities you are looking for and most importantly is he a mentch?(i know this seems like a basic but sometimes gets forgotten)Hatzlacha in all you do and all in the right time.
(12/22/2010 11:11:01 PM)
47
Open minded
I see you're pretty open minded. Therefore, I think you should understand that there are not just 3 types of people (I specifically refrain from using the word level, because (call me a liberal) I think the various viewpoints hold some value). Every person is different and every person puts emphasis on different aspects of Judaism and Chassidus. And yes, there are plenty of people who think as you do.
(12/22/2010 11:11:44 PM)
48
A middle bochur
There are plenty of middle bochurim out there. I wouldnt necessarily group them the same exact way you did but there are plenty of guys out there just like me!!!
(12/22/2010 11:13:08 PM)
49
very intresting
very well written straight to the point
i just want to tell you there is middle people out there!
(12/22/2010 11:14:53 PM)
50
Lefty
There are people in the middle. There are people in the community that only have the blind eye and only see either the chosidish or the bum. However there are many middle boys and girls. These are the ones that have a hard time finding a shiduch.
(12/22/2010 11:15:05 PM)
51
Important questions
B"H,

Your questions are important to ask, thank you for asking them, in turn causing me to think about them.

1. Your definitions are wrong. There are really 2 definitions, those who aspire to grow, and those that are totally comfortable with their spiritual standing and have absolutely no desire for growth. In these 2 definitions there is no middle ground, either you consider yourself sorted in life, or you are aware of your deficiencies and seek to grow.

A chassidish person is one who seeks to grow, and a bum is someone whose comfortable not growing. In EACH ONE of your 3 definitions there are those who are comfortable with where they are in life, and those who seek growth. Growth for one person maybe forcing himself to think chassidus before he sleeps, growth for another maybe controlling himself from watching one less movie; either way if they take their growth seriously they are both chassidish! Likewise one can have a bochur in black and white who taka learns and davens but if he goes to bed comfortable with who he is, and considers himself made, he is totally ignoring what it means to be a chossid.

2. People are considered bums if they don't follow the system because people are closed-minded and judgmental. Nevertheless when someone takes life into his own hands without following the system, it becomes a lot easier to cross the line Frumkeit demands; one needs a chasidishe maspia, who is aware of what goes on in the world, to guide, how to be out of the system and frum at the same time. Someone who is out of the system in such a controlled manner is distinguishable from one who just does his own thing; although its not foolproof and there are bound to be some who judge negatively.

3. Your question about college also bothers me.

Good luck with everything -

An aspiring Chassidishe Bochur
(12/22/2010 11:15:25 PM)
52
YOU HAPPEN TO BE 100% CORRECT!
i am a bochur who is not chassidishe with the whole hat and jacket thing going on but i will tell you that i keep to torah and shulchan aruch pretty well (obviously it could be better). I have not gone to college nor do i plan on it for the reasons that are given in the rebbes sichos but i do understand why you have decided to take another route in this area. Not to say that what u have done is wrong c'v but i think the rebbe was more prone to giving his ok to going to college once the boy/girl were married and living with torah values. Anybody who tells you that there is no middle ground is definitely wrong, unfortunately the middle path is a very unique one in which you wont find an exorbitant amount of individuals striving for. all in all you are 100% correct in everything that u are doing and keeping to, you should only continue to improve and there is no doubt that g-d will show you the proper guy in its proper time! thanks for this great article.....
(12/22/2010 11:15:53 PM)
53
Wow
You are amazing for capturing what so many girls are thinking and feeling. Girls who don't follow CH's system, really just 'don't fit the mold' as you say, and are and always will, be looked down upon.
I don't have any answers to your questions, but I do identify with what you're feeling. I think you're going in with the right mindset and you seem strong. You seem connected to the Rebbe. Go after what you want, not what the community wants.
Thank you again! I hope lots of girls see this
(12/22/2010 11:18:54 PM)
54
okay article
You did great until you started characterizing people (putting everyone into different groups).

i must say some of us guys are looking for a girl that’s in college trying to further their education.
And what about some of us that walk around in flip flops, but yet go to mikvah and daven with a minyan. You cannot generalize like that all.


What I have to say, live your own life!!! Don’t fall for what other people have to say; you’re the only one that know what’s best for you. So go to college make a living and BTW, there are lots of guys in school now day that are davening with a minyan, going to school, and learning sichas. Just let the shadchonim know that that’s what you’re looking for
(12/22/2010 11:20:06 PM)
55
levels
there are not 3 levels. there are hundreds. you need to figure out where U feel comfortable and stop living your life according to other's expectations. you will find a guy iyh who is on par with your levels of observance, not ur teachers, ur parents, ur friends, only u.
(12/22/2010 11:20:57 PM)
56
Frum not Chasidish
As a (part-time) shadchan and shliach (full-time)I can tell yo that thare is a middle, I just wouldn't call it "chasidish", I would call it frum. You cannot be Chasidish and listen to Matisyahu!

There are many guys like this and I don't understand why you would think that there are not.

Religious adherence has a spectrum and there are people all across the spectrum, including people that only go to shul once a year.

If you went to a college, for better or for worse you have wantonly exposed yourself to secular world and most Chasidishe guys are not interested in girls that has picked up that perspective.

The definitions of Chasid is someone that goes lifnim mishuras hadin.
(12/22/2010 11:24:22 PM)
57
Missing a few screws
Kid, what sem did you go to that was such a 'top sem' but never knocked some sense into you???!!
(12/22/2010 11:24:22 PM)
58
Nice letter
There definately is a middle group and you will find someone like that for yourself.
(12/22/2010 11:30:05 PM)
59
I NEVER post comments on COL!
I am not one of those that even checks it daily or needs to know every little thing that is going on and when its happening.......however, I read your article and I wanted you to know your not alone; I do feel your pain.
I've gone through the system, but I look at it a little differently. I think boruch Hashem we have a "system" in place that leads us and guides us on the right path. Otherwise, so many times throughout our life it would have been so easy to get lost! Yet we thankfully have a rope to hold on to, to show us which way to go - with the Rebbe holding on the other side and leading us. Yes, we are able to make our own choices along the way, as in which seminary to go to, how often you take advantage of the "system" but it was put in place to HELP us grow!!! So dont look at it negatively - you were able to get to your "top seminary" and be "chassidish" because of it!
Now regarding your college question - your right. Not everyone is cut out for Education....and even in education you can do alot more when you have a degree. Even on SHLUCHOS it can help if you have a degree! That's where we are lucky - there are colleges for frum girls, classes that can be taken online, credits to get from special online classes. It IS POSSIBLE without going to a non-jewish school! I should know....I'm a 20 yr old girl who falls into your category of "regular chassidish" and am becoming a social worker - without going on a college campus! So your right, but wrong.
And as for the last point you made - I do agree with what you are hearing. In the "shidduch scene" myself, I see that as opposed to girls who can be chassidish and very down to earth, the boys that come up are either one extreme or the other; rarely are the boys well-balanced. But that is just a result of the Yeshiva system they were lead through. Just keep in mind....you don't want to marry someone on a LOWER LEVEL than you, because that chas v'sholom will result in your level being lowered. It is always better to marry someone who will bring you up, and together you'll find the perfect balance that works for both parts of your neshama!!
Well....good luck! And yes, we do feel you :)
(12/22/2010 11:30:18 PM)
60
FACTS
1) As evident ( just look around the neighberhood ), many are runing to the exit doors from these old assumptions. More and more people are realizing that in order to keep up with parnasa, tuition bills etc. you must have a professional education, any other "story line" that you may hear does not meat realety.
2) You will be hearing different names of people who "made it" in life without education, but they won't tell you that majorety of the uneducated people need to rely on government programs to survive!!!!
3) Many will attack you for your lack of "emunah" "heskashrus" etc, but very few will offer a real solution, job, or place for shlichus!!!
4) once you graduate and become succesfull, they will be all over you asking for donations and prasing you! you will make it to all the "fancy events" , just wait.
5) Many people will go against the rebbe with machelokes etc. without hesitation, but when it comes to teaching a chiled 1+1 or basic English, they will embrace the rebbe. I guess it's a matter of conviniance!!
6) go ahed with your plans, you can be a true frum and and still educate yourself.
7) As far as finding a shiduch, by looking at what's going on in our neighberhood, you won't have a problem to find a true chasidish guy with good education and parnasa prospect.
(12/22/2010 11:36:45 PM)
61
To #51
UR SOO RIGHT
(12/22/2010 11:36:57 PM)
62
In betweenie
I call the middle levels between 2 and 3 "In betweenies" There is a huge range of people that are in the gray area.. For example, myself. :)
(12/22/2010 11:39:20 PM)
63
To: I NEVER post comments on COL!
Hahahaha about the last thing you said: They say the same thing about the guys. 'You should marry a girl thats on a higher level, cuz the woman brings up the man' very cute :)
(12/22/2010 11:40:05 PM)
64
If college is sinful...
For those who are berating her for having the sinful thought of going to college to earn an honest living, please answer one question. Why is going to college so much worse than living a life of dishonesty? Let's face it, many families get the maximum in government benefits by hiding income, getting paid in cash etc. And they have to fudge the truth on their applications and tax returns. And our yeshivos fudge the truth too. And it's all justified because that's what you need to do to survive. But halachically, isn't that problematic too? Isn't that a threat to our neshama and our ehrlichkeit? Yes, I know parnassa comes from Hashem, but tell that to the family with 8 chidren living in a 2BR paying $1800/month tuition and no way to got out of that hole.
(12/22/2010 11:40:42 PM)
65
The Irony...
Ironic how attending College & University in Lubavitch is frowned upon, only to be celebrated when you earn enough to make a donation....
G-d help us all; look how long we are without a leader to guide us.
(12/22/2010 11:42:10 PM)
66
To: FACTS
SOOOO TRUEE. Love how you put it
You should make that into a petition. See how many people sign it.
(12/22/2010 11:43:50 PM)
67
been there/done that
The Rebbe was clear about the people who survived college 'intact' were exceptions and not the rule. That's when middle level will descend to lower level and even off the chart altogether, c"v. I speak from the experience of my child who is no longer frum. You can't even imagine the craziness that exists in colleges these days. It's even so much worse than in the times that the Rebbe spoke about this.
By the way, the vast majority of shidduch aged kids are in the 'middle' category.
(12/22/2010 11:44:36 PM)
68
frum
listening to matisyahu means ur frum! BUT NOT CHASSIDISH
any chassidishe boy or girl should not listen to that garbage!

(12/22/2010 11:44:41 PM)
69
Personal life needs personal advice
I had the same dilemma coming out of seminary. There are a few choices out their other than teaching. There are frum/all women colleges that are perfectly qualified, online classes, one on one instructors, and on the job learning. I think it most important to speak honestly to your parents and mashpia to decipher what atmosphere you will grow in, (and not the opposite), and what is appropriate for you. Almost nothing in the world is black and white, that's why we have mashpiim and people who we trust for personal advice. Where would we be without them?

-a post-sem girl
(12/22/2010 11:47:30 PM)
70
To 19
These are very 'nice words'. But before 3. Tamuz the Rebbe gave people advice.
(12/22/2010 11:51:02 PM)
71
To 21
Call F.E.G.S. (212) 524-1728. They help people pay for vocational training in so many fields. Yes, the classes are secular and co-ed but they are usually much shorter than a college degree. You mentioned you have no skills, well this grant program will help you every step of the way. They will help you decide what field to go into, get you started with a school, pay 2/3 of your tuition, and help you find a job once you earn your certificate.
Good luck :)
(12/22/2010 11:51:42 PM)
72
WOW #32
I really enjoyed reading your comment!
You got ur head straight on!
(12/22/2010 11:53:24 PM)
73
my thoughts...
You are not first or last person to come up with this argument (I heard it a million times and had many discussions about it)
I would like to address few things you wrote. I'm not telling you what to do/ why you're right or wrong, just trying to give a bigger perspective on what you're discussing. (and I am in same stage as you- I'm not older person who doesn't have those struggles, or still in high school with no clue about what it's really like.)

1) You wrote "Regular chassidish".
Don't associate frumkeit with chassidishkeit. Being frum, is sticking to halacha, tznius, kosher, shabbos, davening,etc.
Chassidish is taking it step further and instilling chassidishe values, going in way Rebbe teaches us to, being involved in "more spiritual things" etc. So yes, i don't really think middle way. Either Jewish, or chassidish- what's with this "regular chassidish" and very Chassidish.
Chassidish doesn't necessarily mean you do all of it- but you are heading in that direction, you try to live that kind of life. You don't care about that path? ok, so you can be nice and frum, maybe even bit chilled....but don't say because you daven you are chassidish. ..it's acting like shulchan aruch says to.
College- some of the aspects about it have to do with Halacha- learning certain topics that are Assur according to Torah. and then there's aspect of not kosher environment.
But then there's also issue of where your "koch" is right now. To get ready to get married, build Jewish home, and prepare for it. or just worrying about money, and learning things that are not really helping in your avodah/life and wasting time at this critical stage. (after sem, before gettting married). So with college- I don't know if it's yes or no, it's not clear cut, but if you want to know truth, discuss it with rav, mashpia, teacher, parent, friends, etc.

Which brings me to second point you wrote about and then I'll tie the two together.

2) you write "Why is it so bad to go and learn and bring home a respectable paycheck so that I don't have to be struggling in debt when it's time to pay for sky high tuition prices, rent and all that comes in the package to be a Frum Jew."

I would like to share a few little parables I have been told to say over to people to explain what the Torah is about. (to not frum people even) Very simple, yet so deep. And then I will tie it in.
a) When you buy a new device- let's say for example, a computer or washing machine, it usually comes with instructions. What are the instructions for? To let you know how that machine works, how to use it in its full capacity, what to do if it breaks, or if you don't understand one of the buttons on it. It's there to help you, so that you can use it to its fullest. Will you say- hey, why are they telling me not to place it next to my stove, or to not place anything too heavy it-but what if I want to? no, you know it's for your own good that there are directions.
b)You buy an expensive article of clothing, and it comes with directions to handwash it, in a certain temperature of water or dry clean. But you decide, that its too much work/ expensive, and who is the manufacturer to tell you what to do with your clothes? you decide to take matters into your own hands, and put it in the washing machine. guess what? it comes out ruined. The directions are there to help you, not to restrict you, or make life harder.

In this case: Hashem created the world, and people in it. In order to know what to do and how to do it, He gave us the Torah - a book of directions in how to live our lives. Directions that are there to help us do it the best possible way, to know how to live through challenges and questions we face in life. But it's not a burden. It's there to help us, and who's the one gaining most in end- us!
So you can say, yes it's hard to be a yid sometimes, people who work on shabbos can make more money, etc. But we know if we follow Hashem's ways (and way Rebbe told us to live as well) only good can come out of it. will you always see the good in revealed way, I can't promise you. Hopefully yes, and I wish everyone would. So it's ok for you to want to make money, live a good life- nothing wrong. Question is how are you going about it.
With college- again, up to you. I wouldn't say you're bum for going. I am very good friends that go. They are still very frum! and some have chassidishe values in them. Figure out for yourself, where you're heading, what you want to get out of life, what are your priorities, and do you want to follow in path Hashem set for us- way of Torah. And stop worrying how other people look at you. If you feel it’s right way, go for it. Believe me, when I made decision I am happy about, I don’t care what others think of it.

Good luck, and again, i'm not saying this as teacher or parent, but as a friend who had these struggles and questions, and asked people for direction and advice. You should only have brachos and good news in the future.
(12/22/2010 11:53:34 PM)
74
just a yid
Good luck, for sure there is someone out their for you, on the level your looking for, just have faith in Hashem, daven and say tehillim
(12/22/2010 11:54:40 PM)
75
Too many bad teachers.
Not everyone who finishes sem can teach. I am a university educated teacher in one of the Rebbe's moisdos and I got my secular education before I became frum. I am knh now the mother of many including shluchim, and I have seen mant 'teachers' teaching so badly. Having smicha or a sem education does not make you a teacher.
Go to Touro if you can or even a Bais Yaacov tertiary institution.
Two of my kids went to a secular university, one before marriage, one after smicha and marriage. B"H both are still 'good' frum young men, but I was worried about the influences. To the author..... I have a type 1 23 yr old bochur on the market who will not object to a 'middle girl'!!
(12/22/2010 11:57:56 PM)
76
Agree
there are most definitely many boys (and girls) in the middle.

in a world of angels or robots everyone fits into 1 mold.
(12/23/2010 12:00:11 AM)
77
open question
What do you think of starting to date a girl/boy first by phone?
and it may be some time before you actually meet him/her
(12/23/2010 12:05:05 AM)
78
the author
I would like to clarify what i meant by three levels. When i wrote that i had in mind that they were the 3 basic levels but there are definitely the gray parts.
And thank you for your encouragement :)
(12/23/2010 12:06:45 AM)
79
to #10
how can we find out about them?
(12/23/2010 12:10:02 AM)
80
To the author and all the confused folk!!!
I very much disagree with you.
There is a 4th level, boys who are like myself who are open minded and like shopping touring up to date with news and want to go on shlichus and want to build a chassidishe house.
Please don't just assume that everyone must fit in to one of your preconceived levels I think your idea of marriage is totally distorted and you need help and I think you need to speak to someone who can really help you.
Instead is ranting your strange ideas on this forum I think you should have attended rabbi Manis friedmans lectures and classes, like the ones he has been giving lately in ch, try to spread the word amongst your friend, rabbi Manis is one of the most secret unnoticed treasures that Lubavitch has. Take advantage and change your perspective on life and on marriage!!
Good luck to all!!!
(12/23/2010 12:11:17 AM)
81
The Rebbe wants your good
The big problem is that we look at the Rebbe's directive as a negative constraining rule "no college".
We just have to remember that everything the Rebbe told us, he said out of pure love for each and every one of us. The Rebbe's directive of not going to college is for our good. The Rebbe has a much broader picture of things than we do. Not always do we see what the Rebbe sees. However, we believe in what he says, that is what makes him OUR Rebbe. We trust that he sees the bigger picture and is advising us for OUR good. THE REBBE NEVER FORCED US TO FOLLOW HIS DIRECTIVES. HOWEVER, BY NOT DOING SO, WE ARE THE ONES LOSING OUT! It is for our own good to follow the Rebbe's teachings.
The Rebbe made it VERY clear that the Rebbe is opposed to secular college.
It is entirely your decision to decide what to do. However, if the Rebbe is YOUR Rebbe then you follow his directives, which happens to be for your own good.
(12/23/2010 12:20:43 AM)
82
No such thing as klalim
Bchlal the Rebbe is against going to college. But there are many exceptions to this klal. The constant is that in all cases one must speak with a mashpia.

I B'H just finished college. Under the direction of my mashpia. I am most definitely not "irreversibly poisoned," because I went about it al pi Torah and hadracha.

This is not a davar poshut and most definitely shouldn't be decided by hearing from the hamon am who have no idea what your specific matzav is.

Speak to your mashpia. Discuss all the factors and then have the two of you come to a decision.
(12/23/2010 12:21:42 AM)
83
Been there, a bit of advice.
This is coming from a girl who was in your exact situation. Just so you know, there are middle guys out there, i found one and i am BH very happy! I am sure that you will find yours too.
As far as college is concerned, i didn't go to college until i was married because of the aforementioned "Stigma" that comes along with it. I strongly regret that decision. GO TO COLLEGE NOW, DONT WASTE ANY TIME. If i had gone to college while i was still single, i would be done with my degree by now and hopefully bringing in the money necessary to live our expensive Jewish life style.
Good luck, and well said!
(12/23/2010 12:23:38 AM)
84
college
Once you're married and settled if you must, then talk to someone (Mashpia,Rav etc) I'm sure it wont be such a "bad thing "then.
(12/23/2010 12:30:15 AM)
85
solution
go to stern college which is VERY respectable and frum or you can go to touro too
(12/23/2010 12:30:15 AM)
86
Yosef Goldman
I feel bad that this girl is a bit unclear. Stop caring what other people think about you. Decide what you want in life. Decide what type of guy you want, and go ahead with it. Every year it's more widely accepted that a guy with a job, is a great thing. We are still in the time of transition, but there is no need to worry about everyone else's comments. You marry a frum guy, you will be fine. you want to get a job, you will be fine. Just do it. Is there a middle group, is there not a middle group. Stop categorizing. There are nice frum boys who are working. Take a deep breath, and focus.
(12/23/2010 12:36:36 AM)
87
a college student
Go to Touro or any program like Touro (there are a few of them in the Brooklyn area) The classes are totally separate and there are plenty of girls from CH there.
(12/23/2010 12:39:12 AM)
88
this wasn't me!
I know my whole family that is reading this thinks that I wrote it, it wasn't me! God I hate when articles appear on col and they sound similer to me and my family makes fun of me for weeks afterwards. It wasn't me!
(12/23/2010 12:42:00 AM)
89
TOP SECRET!!!!!
learning in 770 can mean many things,from actualy learning,down to travelling the world,sleeping the whole day,sitting on the internet the whole day smoking and using food stamps to just fress away,it is not so clear cut,even the "770 bochurim" may have allot under there sleeves which people dont know about
(12/23/2010 12:45:27 AM)
90
OY!!!! THE REBBE TOLD US WHAT DO!!
Think of neone u know who wen to college at least b4 marriage- how did they turn out? not very good:) prob btwn ur middle and low category (which btw, there are many many many more categories!!!) My brother in law's brother went to college ad hes not frum nemore! i was shocked but not surprised cuz thats what college does to ya!...dont fool urself.

The rebbe told us what must be done- ITS SAD THAT WE CANT FOLLOW WHAT THE REBBE TOLD US!!! for those of you who say that we pick when to do the rebbes horaos- those ppl are obviously not doing what the rebbe had in mind, so just cuz theyre not- we shudnt either???? wheres the logic?

WE WANT/NEED MOSHIACH NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
(12/23/2010 12:45:52 AM)
91
Points to ponder. . .
I think that rather than use the word system, a person's
goal should be to serve the Aibishter. Of course, there
are some prerequisites. With the help of
a mashpia, a person can find an acceptable way to
acquire the necessary job skills. It's important to remember that Parnassa comes from the Aibishter -- all we can do is make the Kali. As we all know that there
are college graduates who are unemployed and there
are those who never when to college and are extremely
successful. Hatzlocha Rabbah!1
(12/23/2010 12:49:37 AM)
92
To 89
Wow! My family thinks it was me too! I think we are a match!
(12/23/2010 12:51:01 AM)
93
Bachur
I dont have patience to read all the comments but you are one hundred percent right and as a Bachur I wonder the same thing from the other side, every girl seems to be super Chassidish or a girl who's skirt is a couple inches too short
(12/23/2010 1:00:16 AM)
94
some personal expereience...
In general, if after thinking long and hard on what you should do with your life, and your final conclusion is that the only job your interested in requires you to go to a non Jewish college. Then that desire for that job could possibly be from the evil side.

We must remember that we don't just have a yetzer hara (emotions) but also a nefesh habhamis (intellect). meaning that it doesn't just pull us by our emotions but it uses our brains to reconcile what it wants. And it knows what damage it could do by having one go to college as opposed to something chassidish-oriented.
(12/23/2010 1:05:07 AM)
95
i once heard...
...that labels and catagories are for clothes and not ppl, there are all kinds of individuals out there, just need to find that perfect someone, and for some unknown reason there are those that have a longer wait :( but have a little faith in the future, they say that he is well worth the wait
(12/23/2010 1:06:29 AM)
96
shliach to 81
BLN i will print out your comment, who are you ?ashrenu tov mah tov chelku , ashrenu for our Rebbe!
Thank you
(12/23/2010 1:11:49 AM)
97
degrees
I live out of town. There is a litvish community here, and most of the women have degrees. They probably got them from Touro or Stern. Their husbands can learn or be in chinuch, and they can, if they have to bring in a nice salary. If a husband is out of a job, they can step in and help, even if it's temporary. Some can earn $30 an hour or even $70! an hour! I think it's good to have something to fall back on, and once one's kid's are raised they can get a job that pays!! I am "middle-aged" now, and can not make much $ per hour, because I have no education, beside Seminary. I can teach, but that's about it! I don't recommend regular college, but there are other options out there for a frum girl -especially in NY. Hatzlacha !
(12/23/2010 1:11:59 AM)
98
NOT TRUE
Lots and lots of guys are like that!!! but that is all petty! first check if the guy will be a nice, caring ,and loving father etc
This whole level garbage is a stupid misconception that is utterly false!!! I know ten guys that are in grey areas between 1 and 3 including myself. DO I HEAR SINGLE EVENTS :)
(12/23/2010 1:12:13 AM)
99
to 70
what exactly are you trying to say?
(12/23/2010 1:15:42 AM)
100
a 20 yr old bochur
I have a lot to write on this topic, but I'm.sure they're all covered by all the previous commentators.
Just a note a little of the main points being discussed here, but in my opinion very much to do with it, and that is:
There's a VERY big problem in many YESHIVOS (and sems, as I can understand from your article), and that is:
They fail to pay attention to their bochurim/girls need to have a Mashpia. They talk about it time and time again, and it's mentioned all over the place. But some how it took me 6 years in Yeshiva till I found a Mashpia. And I'm probably from the luckier ones! There are very few guys my age that I know of that have a Mashpia alltogether...
My point is: why is it that in sems/yeshivos that are known to be "top", are there students coming out of them without a proper Mashpia, and only then begining "self searching", "getting to know themselves better", "goals in life" etc etc? Should't you have the basics more or less straight by now?!? And if not (in fact, ESPECIALLY if not), at least have a Mashpia who will help you out with these Inyonim!?! I know some people have things more figured out than others, but BASICS i.e. having a Mashpia!?!
I just feel bad for people that have such major - and IMPORTANT - questions, and nebach have to turn to COLlive for answers! (No offence to COLlive, I'm a major fan and love to read all these opinions).
If I wasn't clear enough: my "message to the world" is: GO GET YOURSELF A MASHPIA! And then you'll know weather or not it's alright for you to go to college, "rent" from walmart, wear colored shirts, go touring, watch a sports game, have facebook, wear jeans, and everything else that ONLY your Mashpia can answer!!!
To the author: L'Chaim and Hatzlocho in all that you do!
(12/23/2010 1:16:00 AM)
101
Regarding the Matisyahu Comments
BS"D

I hate to take away from the etsom discussion regarding shidduchim, frumkeit and college, but I think it's important to address the comments made about people that "listen to Matisyahu".

I am a Lubavitch woman, with a great mashpia (whom I spent YEARS searching for) and a Rav (actually 2 of them, for different topics), learn Chitas, and love the Rebbe with my whole heart.

I realize that Matisyahu does not have the same spiritual benefits as negina, but that doesn't make your statement any less of an inappropriate judgement or stereotype. I have determined that in my life, there are certain instances in which music with a 'beat' has a dramatic effect on my ability to accomplish certain tasks (such as cleaning or exercising), and while I would not play his music for my small children, choosing to listen to music from a FRUM Jew is my prerogative. Do I try to minimize this? Yes. Does it mean I'm not a Chossid? No.

I realize that his music CAN have a negative influence, but you know what, I bought the Torah Tots video for my small children and they spent the next week saying "I wanna see the Yatzer Hara!" because he was such an amusing character in the skit. Influences have to do with the perception of the individual, and there are some situations and people for which Matisyahu is clearly not appropriate, but it is not as black and white as you make it.

My point is that while we all have to be wary of secular influences, some of which clearly effected the style of Matisyahu's music, deciding that everyone that listens to it is cut off from the Rebbe is narrow-minded and insulting. If you are willing to draw lines in the sand like that, you probably should not be making shidduchim or giving advice to those that are trying to find them.
(12/23/2010 1:25:01 AM)
102
WHAT I DONT UNDERSTAND
This whole letter brings up another serious issue! forget the college thing, because thats no big deal. Forget teh catagory thing, becasue that is totally off ( so many different levels of people) MY ISSUE IS WHAY ARE PEOPLE LYING TO THEMSELVES!!!!! theres this whole game that everyone plays, he wears jeens he must be a catgory three, not good enough for my catagory two!! COMON, dont pretend that you are higher than you are so people will autimatically take you down a level.. be honest. And seriously, giv the guy/girl a chance to prove him/herself. The problem is the closeminded people out there that think the most important thing is chitas and mikva, while leaving out the "small" details like is he a normal, nice, caring, trustworthy, individual

and for the record, there are a huge amount of guys that watch movies more than once every three months and listen to non jewish musicm that dont trim their beards and want non jewish music and movies ti be the focal point of their homes.
(12/23/2010 1:25:26 AM)
103
collage? A LUBAVITCHER?
how do you write........" that you know the rebbe said you should not go to collage..but tachlis" when the rebbe says something he means it it is true saying that tachlis is not suppose to be a lubavitcher girl saying it because the rebbe is tachlis h'emas and shAME FOR YOU FOR WRITING THAT
(12/23/2010 1:26:57 AM)
104
source
btw in this weeks likutei sichos,shmos chalek aleph. the rebbe speaks strongly against college. not saying that its easy or anything,but being a bochur that been to shluchim on campus a bunch of times i gotta say the frumie's there have a %10 survival rate (obviously that would depend on where u would go..) back in the day the nisayon was not working on shabbos (i was gonna say keeping a beard,but seems that it still is ;)) today its not going to college. back in the day not working on shabbos was unheard of,u cant just close your buisness. but yidden stuck it through & g-d played his magic (just look at b&h,ever hear their ad? "open every day but saturday & friday after sunset"!) same's with college. & the fact that some people dont have money? what makes you think they would otherwise have money? this is all just for arguments sake (besides for the source of the sicha) because you should go ask someone you trust/look up to (dosn't have to be any one holy,they just got to have their head screwed on straight).
(12/23/2010 1:40:22 AM)
105
A bochur
Sorry I'm too lazy now to read all the comments ;)
YES THERE ARE THREE LEVELS AND THE MIDDLE ONE IS DIVIDED INTO MANY OTHER GROUPS.
I WOULD CONSIDER MYSELF IN THE MIDDLE GROUP BUT I WEAR A WHITE SHIRT AND PLAN TO GO ON SHLICHUS. WHAT TYPE OF SHLICHUS ? DONT KNOW. BUT DEFINITLY SHLICHUS. Also in the middle group you have guys who watch movies or watched. There are lots of different details
P.S. Turo is a Jewish collage and I believe they teach all subjects.
(12/23/2010 1:51:48 AM)
106
attn; 73
Very well said.
But please realize that the only way, to actually be a frume yid, is to stick to what the Rebbe teaches and guides us, as for your parables - The Rebbe is our instructor. Every generation has his instructor who knows the challenges & reality's of that generation.
That's what Torah says.

So before Everyone goes to categorize "ch'sidish" & "frum", let's keep focused on the reality of the matter.
its not just 15-20 years ago, but today too
this is the reality.
(12/23/2010 2:10:10 AM)
107
You expressed it perfectly
I really appreciate you for writing this. I had a HUGE issue deciding what to do with my years before marriage. I wanted to use my years productively, working toward my future. I didnt want to sit in an apartment in CH doing something I didnt enjoy. You will find a guy who is right for you, and appreciates you for all that you are. I did.
(12/23/2010 2:27:23 AM)
108
Advice
before going to college, get a mashpia that you can talk to regularly. Things there affect you, although we think they dont
(12/23/2010 2:29:10 AM)
109
to #63
(gosh, i must be really bored if I am commenting again :)) But anyway, your right :). The thing is - its possible, because everyone is on a higher level in a different area of their life and middos, so find someone's strength that compliment your strengths and each will bring the other one up!!
(12/23/2010 2:54:48 AM)
110
the irony...
The irony of all of this is that it is unacceptable to attend college but perfectly acceptable to pursue and accept the proceeds of that education for support of the moisdos. Unbelievable
(12/23/2010 3:20:49 AM)
111
there are a lot of options
i think a great option for jewish boys and girls who want to go to college is yeshiva university or the girls stern college for women
or perhaps touro
goodluck!
(12/23/2010 3:31:20 AM)
112
To 101
When the torah tots dress up in a santa suit and half untznius women in their DVDs let's talk. Until then matisyahu is treif now.
(12/23/2010 3:37:32 AM)
113
#51 spot on!
I think the article is very relavent. It's sad to see all the judgmental comments which is a clear example of what our "system" is accomplishing. How much greater would lubavitch be if boys and girls were'nt labeled and talked about for stupid things, such as wearng jeans etc. The tragedy of the "system" is that when a guy/girl does one thing that is out of line system wise, not even necesarily Jewish wise, he is labeled and looked down which in most cases causes him/her to start believing the label that they have recieved is true and molds them into that character. If the system was less judgemental and more positivly structured the community wide problem of "bums" would be a lot less of a issue!

from my view as a guy going thru the system:)
(12/23/2010 4:06:42 AM)
114
dear distraught damsel
Mitoch Hadvorim, it's quite apparent you don't get out much. The article fairly yells at the world "I have no ideawhat goes on outside my immediate famil."

You wanna get hitched? Become socially active. Go to a friends house, not just your own, every second or third shabbos. Go on trips. Join a gym group. Visit Shluchim and Chabad Houses. Organize farbrengens. Eat Chulent. (I'm not sure how that last one is relevant, but the golden rule is: Chulent can never hurt.)

I can't assure you this will help, but I will say if you aren't doing any of this stuff, your chances are........

Life. Be a part of it.
(12/23/2010 4:12:05 AM)
115
Who created these three levels?!?!?!
There are no such thing as levels!!!!
Let's go back to when the Rebbe was standing in 770, there were no "levels" and categories!
There is one line between what separates you as a Chabadnik or not and that is defined by whether or not you are Chabad in accordance with the Rebbe's definition not anyone elses. You either practice the lifestyle of a Lubavitcher i.e. no movies, learning, shluchos and follow the way in which the Rebbe led or you don't. If you don't then you might like to consider yourself a Chabadnik but in reality you are a frum person.
Stop creating all these sub levels to appease your own conscious.
(Sorry if i'm repeating what anyone else has said but there are way too many comments to read them all)
(12/23/2010 5:50:36 AM)
116
re #51
You are right on the money. Was going to comment and then read what you wrote. Big ups!!
(12/23/2010 6:55:31 AM)
117
u r a nieve person
Wake up!!!
(12/23/2010 7:01:07 AM)
118
OT, Collage grad
Been through it all. Farbrengens, Oholei Torah, Shlichus, and.... a BA from a frum college too.

After the fact, I can tell you for a fact that you will be exposed to knowledge that is clearly against yidishkeit.

the problem is that it is hidden between the lines in your history books, psychology, litereture. They plant the seeds in a subtle way in which most of us fail to notice.

History: Lincoln freed the slaves because we were all created equal; we are a multicultural society where a Jew has absolutely no uniqueness whatsoever with respect to Hispanics, African Americans, Koren Americans, Palestinian Americans, Talibani Americans, etc. From a grammar point of view, the Jewish American is always somehow sandwiched smack in the middle of the Catholic Americans and Muslim Americans. Weird.

You will also learn how Israel is the worlds rotten apple because they refuse to give land to Palestinians. Ask ANY history professor, Jewish or not. its "true."

Psychology: A modern American family consists of the mom, the moms boyfriend, the step dad, the mixed hybird redneck.... I wont get into the utter disrespect psychology has for family life. They have no such concept of honoring ones parents. Kids are encouraged to repress their shame of God and the reason we won't sin is because of a destructive and outdated superego. There is no soul; human thought is summed down to nothing but bundles of nerves and chemicals that have evolved over billions of years. Wrong could be right because it has never been scientifically proven, yet. Oh, and if your parent gave you a patch, don't forget to dial 911 and report it immediately to your nearest police women who has a fine ability to follow rules.... And when she cuffes them and whiskes them off to prison, you should never feel guilty about it; you will be helped by professional 22 year old college grads who don't have a clue what life is about.... but they have a college degree, so I guess they must be qualified to know all your deepest secrets. You will learn all about these strange theories (proven, of course) in your Psycology 101. If you take Abnormal, you will learn that Schitzophrenia is not treated by god, but by pills.

If you go to college, for you soul's sake, stay away from anything liberal and you will be alright. Physics, Calculus is fine - nothing but numbers and methods of measuring the strengths of bridges, no problems there. Biology has long disposed of Darwinism, so no problems there either. But the liberal stuff? yehareg v'eal yaavor.


(12/23/2010 7:13:40 AM)
119
Not THE system.......ITS THE SHIDDUCH SYSTEM!!
I am sorry to say that everybody is wrong. Every type of person can exist in our system. What is failing the middle group is the Shidduch System. I myself was a middle of the line type of girl. I went college and at 23 found myself single. My parents worked so hard with shadchanim to find appropriate names, they never had any. I was very lucky that my parents and extended family worked really hard and were persistent. Finally, before my 24th birthday I met my besheret thanks to my family (the shadchanim never mentioned him). I think Shadchanim need to take their jobs a little more seriously or get new jobs!!! To the writer of the article. Don't get caught up in "the system" just be a good person and be patient. There are a lot of really nice guys out there. You just haven't met the right one yet!!!
(12/23/2010 7:44:04 AM)
120
Mushka B.
This really doesnt sit right with me I dont feel like a chassidish girl needs only be thinking about torah. human, healthy balance is an important part of who every person should be. right along with chassidish...
(12/23/2010 8:24:11 AM)
121
To 31
"girls are frumer....more educated"

I agree that girls are more frum, and I agree its cause they're more educated (i don't know if this is what u meant). When I say educated I'm talking about secular education.

Girls can feel comfortable being frum and not despondant but guys feel like they were cheated out of basic life skills in the name of religion and some choose to throw it all away because of that.
(12/23/2010 8:34:56 AM)
122
Considering Leaving
I am a BT through a Chabad house, and moved to CH almost four years ago. I have both a masters and a PhD in Educational Administration. I cannot find a shidduch nor a job in Lubavitch because I am educated in something other than Gemara. I do not touch my beard, and I wear a hat and jacked, yet I had to find a SECULAR school job becuase nobody in chabad wanted someone with so much secular education, even if I could be a great asset to their school. I will always be a chossid of the Rebbe, but it upsets me that once a BT is brought into Chabad, there are no opportunities for them to use their education or skills, and definately no way to find a shidduch because of that education. I am now looking in Flatbush and the UWS for a shiddch, and will be leaving CH. Are BT's supposed to be impovrished and alone?
(12/23/2010 8:42:12 AM)
123
TO ALL OF YOU!!!
WE live in a different world than 40 or 50 years ago. The powers that be must face these challenges!!! WE are no longer farmers and artisans. This girl deserves our respect and and answer not judgement like many of us recieved. IT is a very pertinent and practical question. Our yeshivas have to help the children find their proper place in society. not everyone can be a shliach or an educator.
PLEASE NOT EDUCATORS . THE CHILDREN THAT YOU PUSH AWAY TODAY FOR YOUR PERCIEVED NOTIONS THAT THEY ARE NOT CHASSIDISH ENOUGH ARE THE SAME ONES YOU WILL PROBABLY GO TO MONEY FOR YOUR YESHIVAS!!! EVEYONE DESERVES RESPECT AND EVERYONE DESERVES TO BE HELPED TO FIND THEIR PLACE IN LIFE SO THEY CAN BE A RESPECTABLE CONTRIBUTING MEMBER OF SOCIETY!!! HASHEM CREATED ALL KINDS TO MAKE UP THIS WORLD.
HATZLACHA!!
(12/23/2010 8:45:52 AM)
124
I might be a "3"
I'm pretty disappointed from all the people in here who writes that going to college makes one not a chossid. First of all, my mother got a letter from the rebbe regarding what career to choose. Second, after finishing the system and trying to get a job, I went from one to the next because I wanted to know that I could start a family without putting them through a life of low living standards. At the end of the day, we aren't all entrapenaurs and I ended up making from 15-18 dollars an hour. This is not enough to support a family. So now I single and 28 and finally came to my senses and enrolled in college. It's funny how now I'm considered a "bum" but by definition, a bum is someone who doesn't do bubkeh's for a living and just hangs around and that't what you're doing when you're shleping boxes or doing data entry for 12 bucks an hour. All you people that think that we shouldn't encourage our children to get a proper education makes me despondant about our future. I'm half way done with schooling and I still have a beard, keep kosher, put on teffilin every day and learn twice a week. Just saying. Anyway, nice to see so many people respond to this letter. Man I wish this thing had spell check (for everyone,not just me)
(12/23/2010 8:52:36 AM)
125
From a Boy who was called a bum for going to college
I was called a bum in the early 90's when I walked to the train dwon kingston ave. why? because I didnt wear my hat and jacket and didn't look the cut as required in the Ghetto life handbook. There was nothing wrong with me. I was frum Davened three times a day, learnt a little as well. But the bottomline was I coulnd sit in yeshiva all day. So when I was 18 it was time to get serious. Bottom line is some people are made to learn and some have to work. I dont believe the concept of Yissachar and Zevulun can work if everyone was cut out to be the perfect CH -Chasidish mold.

Bottom line is just rememeber who treats you and calls you nasty things. They will come crying back to you one day as if they are your best friend for help for their institutions. Send them flying, its not nekama. Its helping others in the same situation many of us have been in to change the attitude of many of our raabis and shluchim. The very same people who called me a bum , their kids arent frum today. Sad, but I was the bum their kids were "chasidish". I am frum I havea large family I pay full tuition andsupport many institutions. They are not frum at all.

Rabbi shein has been trying to make awareness to these issues but most mashpiyim dont even want to clean the wax out of their ears or open their eyes that there is an issue that not everyone can or will sit and learn.

Its time some of the older people ( 50'60's) learn to treat others with respect no matter how old you are. You have a right to go and attempt to make a mentch out of yourself. I respect those that learn and teach as much as those that work. But the bottom line is respect everyone, dont judge.

I remember a famous line I once saw. "The toes you step on today may be connected to the ass your going to kiss tomorrow".
(12/23/2010 9:00:41 AM)
126
Someone who's been there
When I was younger, I went from Yeshivah to Yeshivah, until my parents finally decided to try something else with me, because Yeshivah clearly wasn't “working for me” (take that how you’d like to take it).

In any case, I have been in college for a while (I'm currently on hiatus as I am going to go into the Israeli Army soon), and let me tell you, it is very easy to stray into things from the college environment that a Chassidishe Bochur, and Kal V'Chomer a Chassidishe Maidel, should never get into (namely drugs, drinking, goyishe music, intimate relationships with those of the opposite gender who are not their spouse, etc.). B"H I personally kept my head on straight (for the most part), so I didn’t really have too many issues, but don't get me wrong, the temptations are there, in many different ways. I’ve seen people that I know go “dark-side”, and it ain’t pretty.

In any case, I never really had any Yeshivah experience past elementary school, for the most part, and therefore everything I know in Yiddishkeit and Chassidus is based on what I have learned from growing up in my parents’ home, from my youth, and from random classes I attend here and there, and random Sefarim that I read when I get inspired. I have always kept my beard, and I stick with the laws of Yichud to the best of my knowledge, and I try to do everything I can to the best of my knowledge. Yet still, without the constant flow of Chassidus or Torah learning into my brain, there are many things that I slack on (movies, davening without a minyan, etc.)

You can go to college and force yourself to keep all the things that you know in Yiddishkeit, but even while doing so, no matter how strong you are, there is a chance that Chas V’Sholom you can be influenced into accepting and doing things that your Neshoma really doesn’t want to do, and that’s why I think the Mashpi’im and whoever else generally want you to stay in Yeshiva until you are married, because leaving “the system” only makes it harder for you to stay a “full on” Chassid. I’m not saying I think it’s good to “only” be in “the system” and not have a proper occupation later on in life because of this, as has been mentioned, I’m just saying it is not without reason that it is attempted to keep people in “the system”, because it is definitely “safer” Yiddishkeit-wise.

When you are in Yeshivah 24/7 and you are enjoying the fact that you are there, and I emphasize that part, it is 100% easier to stick to Yiddishkeit and Chassidishkeit, because you are constantly in the environment of Chassidus and Yiddishkeit. Even living in Eretz Yisroel, as I do, if you are not in Yeshivah it is very difficult to do everything that is expected of a Chassid – you really need to surround yourself with your Mishpacha - Chassidim.

In any case, you still need to have a job, and there are so many fields that you might like (Medicine, Law, Dentistry, Engineering, Art, Architecture, Sustainability [yeah, that’s a field], etc.), so there are options for those that want to college, but want to skip most of the temptations. Those options include online classes, and religious colleges in Eretz Yisroel or elsewhere, just to name two (actually those might be the only two options, but hey, at least you have options). I am fairly familiar with college, as I have been in college for a very long time, as I mentioned, so if anyone needs any assistance, please don’t hesitate to ask me for help at collegechassid@gmail.com and I can point you in the right direction. Just keep in mind that if you do choose to take college classes, it would be beneficial for you to set aside time to learn Chassidus in a Chassidishe environment to help keep yourself on track. Also, beware of what some classes may teach you. Although many classes in the sciences do agree with what we know to be true from the Torah, many classes in fields such as Psychology, Anthropology, Biology and others can throw in stuff that may sound very reasonable and sound very true, but that the Torah teaches us differently, so just be careful to look out for such “traps”.

Hatzlacha Rabbah!

(12/23/2010 9:02:18 AM)
127
ok i will say it
you think you know people?
look in your owen plate you have no idea what a chassidesh boy is and your way of analyzing does nothing more then help you sleep at night
(12/23/2010 9:10:32 AM)
128
WENT THROUGH THE SYSTEM
HOW MANY TIMES HAVE YOU GONE TO A DR., ACCT., LAWYER OR ANOTHER PROFESSIONAL WHO IS A GRADUATE OF CHAIM BERLIN, MIR OR ANOTHER LITVISHA YESHIVA. THEY FOUND A GREAT MIDDLE OF THE ROAD APPROACH. THE BOCHUR MADE THE BAIS HAMIDRASH HIS SECOND HOME. WHILE HE WAS GOING TO SCHOOL AND IT MAY HAVE BEEN A CHALLENGING SPIRITUAL ENVIROMENT. THEY SPENT THEIR FREE TIME CONNECTED. THEY SAT AND LEARNED. THEY WERE NOT SHUNNED BY THEIR HANAHALA FOR GOING TO SCHOOL. THEY HAD THE SUPPORT SYSTEM TO HELP THEM STAY FRUM.
MAH SH'AIN CAIN IN OUR SYSTEM. OUR HANAHALA WILL SHUN OUR BOCHURIM. LABEL THEM AS NOT CHASIDISH OR EVEN BUMS. THEY WILL GO TO SCHOOL AS SECRETLY AS POSSIBLE FEELING AS CRIMINALS. DROPPING OUT AND WORSE CHAS V'ASHALOM.
THAT ATTITUDE DISPLAYED BY THE YESHIVOTH IN OUR COMMUNITY IS CONTRIBUTING TO OUR EVER INCREASING PROBLEM WITH OUR YOUTH. ALLOW HALF DAY LEARNING, PART TIME LEARNING. THE SAIDER HALIMUD SCHEDULE SHOULD INVITE THE BOCHUR TO SPEND TIME IN THE BAIS HAMIDRASH.
IT IS TIME FOR THE YESHIVA TO REVISE IT'S ATTITUDE!
(12/23/2010 9:10:33 AM)
129
there r plenty of jewish college that girls learn there only.
There no reason to go to a non jewish college these days. there are plenty of jewish colleges like T.T.I , Sara Shneur,and the seminar hachadash.. that is only girls program and fit for u.
(12/23/2010 9:26:59 AM)
130
The answer: A Chasidishe College??
Perhaps this topic, the letter the author wrote, and all the comments can inspire the creation of a "CHASSIDISHE COLLEGE": Higher "practical" learning, with goals for parnosa, separate seating, taught by only Frum people, with specific skills, "college like" tests, "college like" goals, aimed at creating professions and professionals that are considered "kosher" and where people can make a living (other than teaching) when they graduate, .....all within a respectable, acceptable, modest environment?
The author of this article is very bright and very brave to speak her mind and express what is in her heart. She is NOT alone. Those that have their noses buried in the snow and are not aware of the "issues" that concern young Jewish singles and those that think that "one size fits all" are very mistaken and very "blind". We are all individuals, with feelings, unique emotions and individual needs. To suppress what is in our hearts is dangerous to our health.
(12/23/2010 9:32:57 AM)
131
Ask a mashpia
Not a whole bunch of people you don't know and who don't really know you either.
Fact: the Rebbe was against single girls and bochurim going to college.
Fact: the Rebbe said each and every one of us needs a Mashpia.
There are exceptions to every rule. Maybe you can go to school online? You can get almost any degree online these days. If that's not an option discuss your exact situation with your Mashpia (get one if you don't have one!) and maybe there's a way to do it right.
If you and your Mashpia conclude that college is ok for you and the way you're doing it is appropriate then it doesn't matter what people consider you to be. You will marry your bashert and will do the right things in life.

Hatzlacha.
(12/23/2010 9:34:20 AM)
132
Parent of Bochur
Being the parent of a "shidduch eligible" bochur, on some level it is comforting to see that there are girls with "balance".
If you would be interested in a bochur with balance please ............................................


(12/23/2010 9:41:51 AM)
133
i feel for you
i really enjoyed reading your article and can hear your feelings in this. Listen. not everyone thinks that way. I would maybe find people to surroud yourself with who support you and arent so judgemental toward you. I believe everyone should have thier personal mashpia and its bet themselves and thier mashpia what they decide they need to do for thier life, noone else. somepeople are bored, unhappy, or just crotical people with issues and they like to put other people down or give them lables? bum??? I dont think so! you sound like a great girl with your head on strait and there is never one way for anyone. I believe the Rebbe told some people in some situations that THEY should go to collage and others not to. everyone and thier situation is different. we cannot judge others and look down upon them or label them.

there are plenty of guys who are in the middle. plendy. I bh am married to one of them, which is a good thing because i would not like to be married to someone judgmental who looks down on others.

the right person will come to you. If you believe it will and find that emunak and through positive thinking, it will come....

all the best!
Rivka
(12/23/2010 9:45:31 AM)
134
Problem is Jewish Community
The title is asking if college is a crime....I assume the emphasis here is a crime in terms of marriage prospects, not religiously. It seems like the REAL problem here is that community members are not thinking for themselves. If each person was less concerned about conforming socially and more concerned about the unique derech that Hashem gave them to serve Him (based on their talents, skills, and interests), then we would have much more diversity among our youngsters, and it would be easier to find someone uniquely suited to you.
College is not antithetical to being a devoted Jew. It depends if you are mature and have really decided being frum is for you, and you can find a college environment that allows you to be in a frum community and balance your secular classes with quality Jewish classes that challenge and inspire you just as much, and Jewish PEOPLE who similarly challenge and inspire you. The real problem is not college but Jewish community experiences that cannot match the college experience.
(12/23/2010 9:45:57 AM)
135
College
I rarely ever read these things, let alone comment on them. But there's something I want to point out. G-d chose your bashert already. He won't morph into a monster if you go to college. He won't die if you go to college. He's out there, and he's for you. So you do your best to be the best you now (and if that means feeling like a mentsch by earning a degree so you can make a decent living, then do it. Just take into consideration that there will be some negative effects from college) and don't worry about not finding a 'middle' guy. It's HIS job to find you.
(12/23/2010 9:46:07 AM)
136
I hope this article doesnt reflect
most Crown Heighters. However, given the volume of the response, it seems it may.

This article is infantile and extremely simplistic.

The world is not black and white. People are not black and white.

You can not stick people into categories of your own making. Put yourself in a box, if you wish, but not others.

Bottom line, this world is not one-size-fits-all.

Consult your parents, or person with strong values that you respect, asking for a consensus from the general public is ineffective and counterproductive.

Which one of of the previous 108 comments will you follow?

Furthermore, I just love the articles that begin with...I know the Rebbe said, but... And then the article goes on about talking about being 'chasidish'

lol! Is that a contradiction in terms or what?
(12/23/2010 9:49:05 AM)
137
Nice Letter
There is really so much to say on this topic. I think that many people do not trust themselves to make their own decisions and that is why they need to rely on the 'system'. As a girl who came from the top seminaries as well, went to college and is now married with two kids and a masters degree, I think it is really important to think for yourself. In the end, you are the only one who is responsible for the decisions that you make in life. People can give advice or criticize from today till tomorrow, but only you will have to live with your choices. These decisions really will affect your future, as well as your future husband Iy'H and children. Therefore it is really important to take life into your own hands. There are so many people I know who are now totally stuck with financial burdens that only grow and grow as families grow and tuition prices rocket. And don't worry about all those that say you won't get a shidduch. Of course you will, (you may not get these people's children, but they are probably not for you anyway) and by doing what you think is right for you and your future family, your future husband will be grateful. Another point I want to add is that you should do your research well before going to college. There are some careers (for example, law, business, etc.) where if you don't go to a good college, then your chances of getting a good job are quite small. So you should check out for your career choice if the college you go to is a significant factor in your prospects for a job afterward. It is really a huge waste of time and money to spend four years studying at a no name college or online if no one in the job world will accept you with it. I have been, for example, to Queens College to visit once and the number of frum Jews there was huge. They were everywhere, and there were kosher cafeterias there, groups of girls learning, etc. Although it is technically a non Jewish college, there are certainly enough Jewish people to hang out with to create the frum environment so that you don't get influenced by outside factors. Good luck!
(12/23/2010 10:09:12 AM)
138
to #100
I agree with everything u wrote except for renting from wal mart as you call it. I think that such a thing is quite clear cut against Jewish law, not up to any Mashpiim to say otherwise under no circumstances!
(12/23/2010 10:15:35 AM)
139
FYI
I am in college now, and I just want to let you know that it has made me a stronger jewish woman. Being around non jewish students strengthened my connection to yiddishkeit, and just by living as a jewish woman set an example for one of my not religious classmates to connect to her jewish roots as well. Good luck with everything, and do not allow other peoples opinions to hold you back!
(12/23/2010 10:20:25 AM)
140
dear young girl
i feel for you , You see our own Mosdos caused this problem .
The Girls finish highschool,and then comess the parsha of Seminary. You can be the best and you need to be approved by overseas wonderful m;canchos if your daughter is eligilbel or mot to be accepted to their great seminarys. Finally after a weekend of tears your accepted. You finish the year and your back in CHeights ,you go back to your school for Sem beis
Rivkah, same teachers as in High school. but no credits fort the year( eventhough any Seminary in Israel gives you 22-40 credits). By now 2008-2010 Beis Rivka Seminary opened its eyes and saw the Emes . They hired a wonderful woman to run it, a woman whoooo cares so much for the girls Tzu Leben Miten Rebben as she did growing up in CHeights, she was the perfect example and still is ,and knows that there is no alternative, and will give the girls credits for the seminar years in Beis Rivkah Ny.
Now all our Mosdos needf for their headstart and and pre school whether its Lubavitch yeshive oholei torah, beis rivka mosdos daycare ,chabad of all the manhatten schools. girls with degree to run the classrooms
So dear mosdos wake up and smell the coffee , you had our girls working for dirt,and bringing beis yakov girls to work for more money, our girls could of had credits at home but no.
And if a girl goes to Touro at nite so what?? If she has a brain and will go on shlichus chabad needs a pre-school opened after 3 years on shlichus and guess what? all those wonderful parents want a teacher that is certified! Now scratch your head.
A girl who goes to touro w/ frum proffessors and willamsburg girls boro park girls. When a fish starts to stink it starts from the head not the tail. All theMosdos as you start using new computers to make life easier ,w/ all new data ,remember that everything outside your offices and classrooms are also changing. I know girls who go to Tourop at nite who are frummer than girls who stay home and watch all the garbage on their little screens at home
(12/23/2010 10:22:01 AM)
141
to 24, 90, and all others who think they know it all...
i am 26 and happily married b"h to a frum, "normal chassidish" man.
when i finished seminary, i was just like the author. i knew that i didnt want to teach...but i didnt know what i wanted to do. so i went on shlichus with a friend. i tought preschool, hebrew school, learned with an adult and helped with all the yom tov programs. i LOVED it. i decided i loved teaching preschool, and thats what i should do. but i was still young and wanted to "live it up" so i went to israel as a seminary dorm counselor-
at the end of the year, i was not 100% sure of what to do next so i wrote to REBBE.
the answer i got from the rebbe's letter was so clear!
it was telling me how important chinuch of little children is, and that i should GO TO COLLEGE and get a degree so that i can "know" what im doing and do it right.
i came back to ny and began teaching and going to college...
college is not for everyone. and today there is a "jewish" college option as well as many online courses, so as not to put oneself in a goyish atmosphere...
just saying.
(12/23/2010 10:27:51 AM)
142
too all u "middle" singles:
Maybe post the name of one shadchan who can help only the "gray" area singles! Sounds from this article like there r so many that feel like this but you are all still searching!

To the brave girl who wrote this: well done!
Go to college & major in journalism!
Good luck!
(12/23/2010 10:31:02 AM)
143
you sounds like an awesome person
i hope you get married very soon!!
(12/23/2010 10:35:01 AM)
144
Case by case basis.....
As a former student of the ULY, I remember distinctly a close friend of mine who was the top student in shiur. A straight Aleph and "A" student.
He wanted to dedicate his life to learning, but his father believed that he should become a Doctor.
They went to ask the Rebbe what to do. Surprisingly, the Rebbe told him to become a Doctor.
Today he is a Dept Chairman is a very big hospital. Beard, kapota and all....
(12/23/2010 10:38:03 AM)
145
Get rid of the Labels
I hate how we have come down to categorizing people as Chassidish etc.. I know many people that learn follow the system's formula and may appear to be "chassidish" but have less than admirable midos. On the other hand, I know people who may not wear a white shirt during the week, go to/went to college who are the kindest people, with exempliary ahavas yisroel. Let's judge people individually by there actions.
(12/23/2010 10:55:56 AM)
146
Right on
I am in the the middle and proud..its a healthy balance =)
(12/23/2010 10:56:42 AM)
147
my three cents
106 is right, i would put it this way, there are so many levels and that is why it is hard to match up
but first of all you the girl are not a bum and each situation is different. The rebbe encouraged working in chinuch but not everyone is cut out for it but just think for a moment if the Rebbe never put his foot down about going to college Who would be on shlichus today, who would be our melamdim and teachers in bais rivkas, who would as a bochur 'waste' a year helping a shliach as opposed to studying to get a career and most importantly ,

think for a moment how many would have fallen of the path if everyone had the green light to go to college.
the Rebb knew his schoireh, you would not have a lub. community resembling to anything what we have today, in yiddishkeit, the Rebbe poshut saved many from becoming more 'prost' because they connected to him and went on shlichus in place of becoming a lawyer . Many can go get a career but yes like another comment, speak to the mashpia and you have to know if you can pass the test., be matzliach

for a boy it is tougher to keep middle ground because if they do not learn they do fall harder than the girl




(12/23/2010 11:00:44 AM)
148
same situation
First of all, congrats for the article, its so true.
What i think is that even in the levels 1 and 3 there are lots of variations. I dont see much difference between a girl that goes to shlichus and dont really pay attencion to tzinius and a girl that is very tzinusdik and goes to college. Just diferent vallues. I can be very machmir in one thing and not in another -- every human beign is like that.
Hashem did not create us in a mold. Every person is different than the other, so just the fact of putting everybody into the same system and waiting everybody to behave the same is like saying to Hashem: "theres something wrong in the way You created people".
I personally cant understad why the entire world talks about accepting others in their society (veohavto leraacho camocha) and us, from the same religion, same comunity can not tolerate difference!! I am in the same situation, i learn in a non-jewish course and ppl accept me better there, for im jewish, than my own community accepts me for doing this course.
(12/23/2010 11:06:22 AM)
149
To the author
Sorry, but despite the fact that you want to pursue the career of "your choice", there is no excuse to go to a non-frum college.

This is true even if there were no Frum colleges, how much more so when you have Frum college options.

A non-frum college is so bad in so many ways for a frum person, there is no room here to even describe it.

Please make the right choice - don't go to a non-frum college, and stay a good, religious Jew.
(12/23/2010 11:07:49 AM)
150
Are we supposed to love an acsept every jew?
Why we judje each other?
(12/23/2010 11:22:33 AM)
151
college
colleg is not for a religous person we know what gose on ther its not really so kosher so if you whant to get marrid to a chasdushe girl dont go to college
(12/23/2010 11:25:44 AM)
152
today
Today life is more expensive,
Tuitions used to be 2000, now 10, `12, 14 and more
if we do not get the goverment to pay, like the pay more for each child going to public school, we need to get the money working
If you are not a business kind person,(there is not waranty that you arre going to make a living anyways) you should have some skills to get paid decent as a worker
(12/23/2010 11:28:27 AM)
153
What about a frum college?
What's wrong with frum colleges like Touro of Stern?
(12/23/2010 11:29:01 AM)
154
i think
now days u have friends or family set ppl up dont need a shaudchan they know how frum you are and how frum the guy is i was was set up once girls family didnt want tv found out few yrs later she married now and has a tv in the house
best bet have married friends and family sey you up ppl they know who are on the same level you think u on
(12/23/2010 11:43:50 AM)
155
Someone who's been there
When I was younger, I went from Yeshivah to Yeshivah, until my parents finally decided to try something else with me, because Yeshivah clearly wasn't “working for me” (take that how you’d like to take it).

In any case, I have been in college for a while (I'm currently on hiatus as I am going to go into the Israeli Army soon), and let me tell you, it is very easy to stray into things from the college environment that a Chassidishe Bochur, and Kal V'Chomer a Chassidishe Maidel, should never get into (namely drugs, drinking, goyishe music, intimate relationships with those of the opposite gender who are not their spouse, etc.). B"H I personally kept my head on straight (for the most part), so I didn’t really have too many issues, but don't get me wrong, the temptations are there, in many different ways. I’ve seen people that I know go “dark-side”, and it ain’t pretty.

In any case, I never really had any Yeshivah experience past elementary school, for the most part, and therefore everything I know in Yiddishkeit and Chassidus is based on what I have learned from growing up in my parents’ home, from my youth, and from random classes I attend here and there, and random Sefarim that I read when I get inspired. I have always kept my beard, and I stick with the laws of Yichud to the best of my knowledge, and I try to do everything I can to the best of my knowledge. Yet still, without the constant flow of Chassidus or Torah learning into my brain, there are many things that I slack on (movies, davening without a minyan, etc.)

You can go to college and force yourself to keep all the things that you know in Yiddishkeit, but even while doing so, no matter how strong you are, there is a chance that Chas V’Sholom you can be influenced into accepting and doing things that your Neshoma really doesn’t want to do, and that’s why I think the Mashpi’im and whoever else generally want you to stay in Yeshiva until you are married, because leaving “the system” only makes it harder for you to stay a “full on” Chassid. I’m not saying I think it’s good to “only” be in “the system” and not have a proper occupation later on in life because of this, as has been mentioned, I’m just saying it is not without reason that it is attempted to keep people in “the system”, because it is definitely “safer” Yiddishkeit-wise.

When you are in Yeshivah 24/7 and you are enjoying the fact that you are there, and I emphasize that part, it is 100% easier to stick to Yiddishkeit and Chassidishkeit, because you are constantly in the environment of Chassidus and Yiddishkeit. Even living in Eretz Yisroel, as I do, if you are not in Yeshivah it is very difficult to do everything that is expected of a Chassid – you really need to surround yourself with your Mishpacha - Chassidim.

In any case, you still need to have a job, and there are so many fields that you might like (Medicine, Law, Dentistry, Engineering, Art, Architecture, Sustainability [yeah, that’s a field], etc.), so there are options for those that want to college, but want to skip most of the temptations. Those options include online classes, and religious colleges in Eretz Yisroel or elsewhere, just to name two (actually those might be the only two options, but hey, at least you have options). I am fairly familiar with college, as I have been in college for a very long time, as I mentioned, so if anyone needs any assistance, please don’t hesitate to ask me for help at collegechassid@gmail.com and I can point you in the right direction. Just keep in mind that if you do choose to take college classes, it would be beneficial for you to set aside time to learn Chassidus in a Chassidishe environment to help keep yourself on track. Also, beware of what some classes may teach you. Although many classes in the sciences do agree with what we know to be true from the Torah, many classes in fields such as Psychology, Anthropology, Biology and others can throw in stuff that may sound very reasonable and sound very true, but that the Torah teaches us differently, so just be careful to look out for such “traps”.

Hatzlacha Rabbah!

(12/23/2010 11:47:45 AM)
156
Soul searching
what's my level ? boys who are open minded, don't really daven,like shopping, touring ,Sports ,movies , up to date with news, and want to go on shlichus?
(12/23/2010 11:49:10 AM)
157
Can we provide for our own?
Is it not possible to provide our own KOSHER colleges for those waiting for shidduchim?

Separate boys and girls colleges in a safe frum and Chassidish enviironment. Having a secular qualification these days can really boost your salary.
(12/23/2010 12:04:31 PM)
158
To 122
Please email me at shiduchhelp@gmail.com
I might be have a prospect for you.
(12/23/2010 12:53:17 PM)
159
growing at my own pace
I dont think that there are just three levels. there are billions of levels and everyone is at a different one and they are growing at their own pace. (hopefully growing) just because you dont learn sichos it doesnt mean you are not very chassidush! (what if you are not a learner, but if you hear about a horaah and act upon it, its also fine. or your tznius, etc. . . there shouldnt be any judging, about levels. Inorder to find your bashert, just make sure the other party, has the same goals as you and that you are basically on the same page. (remember, we are constantly growing and as long as we are doing that, there are no bums and chilleds! )
(12/23/2010 1:07:41 PM)
160
YES!!
I'M DIYING TO GO TO COLLEGE TOO.
I know a very Vhsidishe bochur... blabla bla...
Check the Igros of the Rebbe and make your own choice..
(12/23/2010 1:12:51 PM)
161
a mench
im with 127
(12/23/2010 1:22:34 PM)
162
get a mashpia
Read comments # 100, 131, and 136. To get an idea from some wise people!
(12/23/2010 1:22:42 PM)
163
You don't know what the future holds.
What about the many many college graduates who do NOT have a job. College does not always result in parnossa.

I thought your essay was going to be about families who reject shidduchim suggestions because the person suggested went to college. Or one of the criteria is that the person did not go to college.

Instead it became an essay about levels.

What is your real point?
(12/23/2010 1:46:14 PM)
164
My Opinion-to the author
I understand your feeling! I am actually sure you should go to college! I personally am studying to be a therapist in graduate school. why? not only because i feel i am meant to be one to help many children but also so i can earn a very respectable living (along with my husband who has a career and full college/grad school education) and so i dont have to worry about earning a living and depriving my kids. You can very well be religious and still go to college. Yes, hashem helps w/money but also education. Im sorry but NO one can earn a respectable living with out an education. There are many professional graduate schools and college that many religious jews attend. Go for a college education, go for your dreams, and go for a great life!!!!

As for finding your shidduch...dont give up! You will find one! There is a shidduch/basheret out there for EVERYONE and when you finally find him it will all be worth it!

All the best and best of luck!!!!
(12/23/2010 1:48:34 PM)
165
SAD
the problem is that girls don't know what they want. They are brainwashed by their idiotic highschool teachers that if a boy doesnt want to go on shlichus he isn't chassidish. The female perspective of chassidish is very different than the boy's perspective of chassidish, and that's where all the problems start.
Also, just because a boy wears a hat and jackey doesnt automatically make him chassidish, and just because a boy doesn't daven with a minyan three times doesn't automattically make him a "bum". The sad part is that shlichus isn't really an option now and most girls high expectations are never going to be met.
on a side note, it's funny how everyone thinks they are in the middle level. there is no middle level, because it's all relative. your view of chassidish can be very different than my view of chassidish
(12/23/2010 1:49:26 PM)
166
OF COURSE
There are plenty of guys on level 2 and as many people said there are hardly any on level 1 and there are many more than just these 3 levels.
(12/23/2010 1:50:05 PM)
167
College
If you want to go the College in order to help support the family there is on-line college or Touro College. I went to Touro in Boro Park with only Chasidisha girls/woman and I have no regrets. Good Luck
(12/23/2010 1:52:34 PM)
168
E. Richler
If you and your mashpia truly believe that your actions are acceptable to Hashem and the Rebbe then the opinions of the general public should not matter.

As for categories, I believe they are useless in matters of Shidduchim. By definition marriage is between two individuals, not two categories. Therefore one must examine the characteristics of the individual, not the category.
(12/23/2010 1:58:19 PM)
169
Not just about the money...
Going to College/University is not only about prospective money. It's also about having a sense of self-worth, feeling good about something that you want to do, being pro-active about life and not just waiting around for it to happen for you (And a host of other reasons...)

For all those commentating about going to Jewish colleges, not all of us are so lucky to live in CH, or the tri-state area, and we don't all have the options that you do.

Oh and talking about money, it's 2010, I can't talk for other girls, but I personally don't think it should be the guy's sole responsibility to provide when we get married. I'm perfectly capable as well, enough money is going to be needed, so why shouldn't it be me, why him? Although he's jolly well going to work as well, either that, or he's looking after the kids - he's not doing nothing all day! :)



(12/23/2010 2:22:55 PM)
170
Wow so
To 156#
You have. No level because u r not totally cool nor a chassidish fake - u sound like a good catch......
Davening and learning are important for life though
(12/23/2010 2:24:02 PM)
171
To the author - and whoever else it applies to..
I agree with the underlining concept of what you're saying. However I don't think you can categorize people like that. People are so multi-faceted, that to try and label the whole Chabad into 3 boxes is not going to work - but I understand where you're coming from, because it's what everyone does to us.
I think forget the labels, and just concentrate on who you want to be.
I decided before starting University, that if a guy doesn't want to go out with me because of that, then he's not for me anyway, because evidently we're on different pages.

So do what you want to do, but be sure about your decision, and make sure you are doing it for you and not for anyone else. The decisions you make shape the person you become, and that's the person that should get married, when you're sure of who you are, not when you're still deciding.
(12/23/2010 2:31:17 PM)
172
Know who you are
The people who don't have strong characters, or who aren't sure about themselves don't need to go to College/University to be influenced into something negative. It can happen in the purest of places.

Those who have a strong sense of identity, pride in being Jewish, and are determined to get a degree, and have a solid support system, then G-d willing they should be ok.

I'm not advocating people should go, because it's not suitable for a lot of people, especially perhaps if they grew up in a very insular environment, however there are some people that it might be the right thing for them.

Before I started University, I looked at other options, other countries, other ideas, but in the end this was the best for me. I decided if I'm going to University, I'm going to challenge myself constantly, and make sure I'm still on the right path.

Three years on, my friends (from other faiths), are constantly fascinated by everything I do or eat, or time I take off for Shabboss and Yom-Tov. They're constantly asking me questions, causing me to question myself further especially if I don't know the answer, I'm always doing research now about things I hadn't thought about since I was 5, 9, 16.
The lecturers know I'm the orthodox Jew, and if they have questions they ask me - one asked me the other day to go through some info about Judaism, for a pack she was making, and BH I knew it all, I would've been very embarrassed if I hadn't....

I've also had my fair share of friendly debates with Christians and Muslims, and if that doesn't bring out the fire inside....

One other Jewish girl on my course, but she doesn't yet :) keep much, so Chanukah I made sure she had a Menorah....

Plenty more going, when things come up in class to do with the bible - they all turn to me, which is pretty scary, being as the last time I properly learnt was when I was in sem...So it taught me a lesson, and now I'm trying to learn more with friends, get more involved, classes online e.t.c.

You get the gist, this is not about me, this is about the flip-side of some of the extreme views of what College/Uni can do to you.
(12/23/2010 2:59:23 PM)
173
pirde
if my son's were older, i would be proud of someone like you as a daughter in law
(12/23/2010 3:06:31 PM)
174
Shober8
All the above I can relate to. the one message which I would like to portray is the following: Marriage is not a union of two people it is a REunion of one soul.Hence whatever the issues are,which are many, this does not rectify the situation, but it can help someone relate to the issues better if they know the above.I wish you the best of luck.and hope that at least for you these issues are resolved fast.I also would like to commend you on the "guts" to publish this.some people would mock it but even if the mocker doesn't relate to it he should be able to apreiciate the struggle and not mock. Anyhow lchaim v'livrocho!
(12/23/2010 3:14:56 PM)
175
disagree!!
A. There are many more levels than 1,2, and 3! B. If you don't want to go on shlichus then go to college AFTER you are married!! College majorly affects single girls in the bad way, it doesn't really once you are married!
Good luck in all your endeavors!
(12/23/2010 3:17:50 PM)
176
Okay, There is a problem.
I think we can all agree that there is a problem here, on the one hand going to college is not very good for your 'Frumkeit', but on the other hand many people will struggle without it.
I think that something can be worked out.
(12/23/2010 3:40:12 PM)
177
You hit the nail right on the head!

As long as you are doing what you should be, acting as a bas yisroel and setting a responsible example -you are making a kiddush Hashem.
Know that going into these places will be a test for you of your fatih and commitment to frumkiet on a daily basis - whether you realize or not.
Many people are not strong enough to undergo these trials.
And we don't realize how much influence the people and the outside world really have on us yidden. It influences every aspect of our lives, from our music, dress, hairstyles, behavoir, our food, even the way we talk.
Ever take a vacation to a place like Disney or a Ski lodge?
You want to blend in and experiance the whole thing without constraints.
Todays girls enjoy skiing and most wouldn't question the fact that they need to wear ski pants, and they proudly post pictures of themselves .
As a parent I fear for my children that they will lose C"v their love for yiddishkeit and let it slide slowely away .
But , I also fear for them if they do nothing with their G-d given talents to make a respectful living.
We do go in with the right ideas and intentions to an institution of higher learning so that we may train ourselves to a profession and acquire an occupation that will enable us to live like mentchin and actively provide for our family as well as the kehilla .
Yes, you do have a right and an obligation to seek this stability and respectability of an education, just remember and be strong when the tests come.
I agree with the description you gave of the different type of frumkeit levels - it is just that - if you admitted to the middle way - you probably 9 out of 10 times would be "Labeled" as not frum enough and super chilled.
That is why most people are afraid to admit to the middle choice, they know once they do they will be recieving only offers on the extreme end of things.
Good luck in your learning and hatzlacha b'ruchnius and b'gashmius, Anyone with brains will realize you are worth getting to know , and if not , they aren't what you are looking for! Good luck!
(12/23/2010 4:37:04 PM)
178
You have it all wrong
College = bum?

No! every single college is not a party zone it depends where you are, where you hang out and what classes you take.

There are graduate schools for example law school, medical school where almost 90% of the students are focused on getting their degree and have no time for parties nor do they care of your religious affiliation.
(12/23/2010 5:01:53 PM)
179
EXTREMELY WELL WRITTEN
Most people today are Regular Chssidish ------- the Middle level & have plans on working in the future.
The thing is that majority of them, are not sure of what to do, and which Avenue to take. That's why we all need a Mashpia and a Rav.
(12/23/2010 5:02:13 PM)
180
rly well writen
i feel like a lot of girls are in the same position as you and theres no one to rly turn to.
i like it how evryone is like GET A MASHPIA
its not easy . u have to find the right person and sometimes ure scared to tell all these things to ure mashpia.
(12/23/2010 5:22:07 PM)
181
770 guys
its all a load of rubbish!
a number of the "chasidish" guys in 770 are there just to keep the seat warm they dont really want to be there!
there are even guys that touch there beards that are more chasidish then them like they will go to a shiur in the week and do chitas even when there is no one around to impress and they def more down to earth!
(12/23/2010 5:45:35 PM)
182
yes!
yes going to to college is one of the worst crimes!!!!
(12/23/2010 6:02:45 PM)
183
it's more than that
I'm what you'd consider a bum, but i wouldn't want my kids having a TV or computer.

Children do and can watch TV programs, and movies on computers,computers.
(12/23/2010 6:28:12 PM)
184
Well said
online college is not a crime.
(12/23/2010 6:34:28 PM)
185
To the author
Just want to say that I feel for you, and highly encourage you to discuss this issue with your mashpia who understands your personal situation. I have addressed this issue at length (albeit from a bochur's perspective) in comments to an earlier COL article entitled "My Husband Lost His Job, Again". Please look at comments # 94, 163, 166, 167, 207 and 211 of that article.

My main point is that earning a degree is one step prior to working to support your family. This is an obligation according to the Torah, and should not be discouraged. It's a bit ridiculous to say that working is ok, but becoming qualified to work is not. Obviously the way in which it is carried out must be in accordance with Torah as well, which is why you must speak to your Mashpia. I liked the comments here which are saying that after someone uses their degree to earn lots of money, the entire global Chabad communitiy will be attacking them for donations. Very true. I think that unfortunately underscores where our true priorities lie.

I think it is sad that we have resorted to judging, labeling and categorising people so freely (Pirkei Avos anyone?) and are unable to appreciate individuals for who they are.

Good luck to you, and may Hashem guide and help you in all your endeavours.

From a bochur who is earning a degree and strives to lead a life of Torah and Mitzvos inspired by the teachings of Chabad Chassidus
(12/23/2010 6:40:21 PM)
186
dark world
Its very difficult to figure out what to do in life.
One needs to be very snsible.
Its all very nice to have dreams.
(12/23/2010 6:44:07 PM)
187
tell me, are you lubavitch?
"im not such a tzadeikes"

based on your letter it doesent look like youre "such a chossid either". get a mashpia, and stop speaking about the rebbes words like they dont apply to you.

btw col live is for chabad chassidim, not snags.

you wanna be a bum, be a bum, just dont have taanos
(12/23/2010 6:45:39 PM)
188
system
Following a system creates a seder in ones life!
If one doesen't follow the system it doesn't mean that he or she is a bum. 'Dofferent strokes for different folkes'
(12/23/2010 6:53:17 PM)
189
Answers
1. Are there really no middle boys out there?
]]Not only are there middle boys and girls (#2) out there, there are also #1.01 to #1.99, #2.01 to #2.99, ]]and #3.01 to …, well you get the point, as mentioned before by others, there are plenty of gray areas, ]]and there is a Bochur out there for a girl in every situation, B”H, and vice versa, B”H

2. Why is it that if one doesn't follow the exact system that the world is following, they are considered a bum (even though they have never gone off the Derech)?
]]Anyone who tells you that should be ashamed of themselves. Maybe they made poor life decisions ]]themselves and need to take out their regret on you, but it just ain’t right.

3. Why is it so bad to go and learn and bring home a respectable paycheck so that I don't have to be struggling in debt when it's time to pay for sky high tuition prices, rent and all that comes in the package to be a Frum Jew.
]]It isn’t bad at all. Biomedical engineering and nursing are two of the many respectable jobs you can ]]get with a college education.

To some of you it might sound like a girl who is just miserable in life and wants to complain her life away.
]]Nope. You just sound like someone who is frustrated with “the system”, like everyone else

It's your right to think like that.
]] but it’s not very nice

My purpose in writing this letter is so that I can find out if there are other people like me who feel trapped and to get advice / encouragement from them.
]] Thank you.
(12/23/2010 6:53:35 PM)
190
chassidish
Please define a bum
(12/23/2010 6:56:09 PM)
191
Chassidish vs Frum
Can someone be one and not the other? YES!!

I know girls who do their chitas and Rambam and go to farbrengens but do not cover their knees and have no problem speaking to or hanging out with the other gender.

I know lots of bochurim who are very frum, daven with minyan 3X a day and are machmir on every kashrus or shabbos issue, but don't go to farbrengens or do chitas or even regular mikvah.

So someone can be totally chassidish but not frum, or vise versa.
(12/23/2010 6:57:13 PM)
192
to 182
I hope you are being sarcastic. If not ,may god have mercy on your soul!
(12/23/2010 7:04:12 PM)
193
not a system member
Dol you sound like a great girl who is just mixed up in 2 different worlds, how is that supposed to work? your bagging the system which is very understandable not because it isnt great just it works for some while for others it looks a far cry, i myself wasn`t able to follow 'The System' and went to work for a couple years and then later decided to take a year out to do smicha, i now work for a shliach..... am i bum maybe in the system`s eyes?! but get real you are a down to earth girl why do you need a boy from 'the system' ? there are so many amazing guys out there who work and according to your categories do fall into the middle one, you just gotta keep your head up and stop asking the system to keep panning out your life for you i.e find you the perfect shidduch when you dont actually believe in it...
Get real enjoy life and be in control of your life stop listening to others!
(12/23/2010 7:53:35 PM)
194
Live your life!!!!
First of all, what do u care about people and their jugement?
Do u trust in Hashem?
If yes, you dont have to pay attention to what people are thinking and saying about you.Hashem is gonna send u your shidduch even if u are going to college!!!!!
In life , you just have to be honnest with yourself and do the things that YOU think are right (and not bc other people think it is right)
I am a 21 years old girl, not from CH, and I study, in a jewish college and also in a non jewish college by correspondance.
I want to get a degree for parnassa like u,
i try to follow the rebbe's instruction bc it's important to me.
life is not black and white.
U have the solution in you.
Think deeply and forget the people jugement.
(12/23/2010 8:56:23 PM)
195
Do whats best for you!
Girl just do your thing!!! Listen the Rebbe allowed some people to go to college... Do whats best for you!!!!!
(12/23/2010 9:13:24 PM)
196
Is Going to College a Crime?
yes

parshas shmoys cheylek alef.
(12/23/2010 9:16:39 PM)
197
HOW THE MIGHTY HAVE FALLEN!
Secretly...Lubavitchers used to be the envy of the Frum world.
WHY?
Because we HAVE Rebbe who GUIDES our every step with Emunah & Bitachon in Hashem...
Judging by the article and the many comments perhaps it is more correct to say:
H"vH... We HAD a Rebbe who USED to guide our every step. Nowadays we have to be 'realistic' and do what is 'logical & sensible' instead.
HOW SAD !!!
(12/23/2010 9:23:43 PM)
198
THE LOUBAVITCH GIRLS OPTION IN LIFE
well u can either not go to college, find a lame teaching or secretary job with a very low pay (since you dont have a proper degree you get paid the minimum) and be miserable but at least youll be good in evryones eyes.nobodys gona judge you.or you can get a degree online or go to touro or stern, get a proper degree in a job that you will actual enjoy for the rest of your life.
you cant always please evryone and no matter what you do people will find something to judge you about.
i mean even very chassdishe women in the community are judged for saying this or doing that.
did you notice in the lubavitch world how girls just go through the system and dont think about doing anything else? after seminary ( for a lot of girls i like to call it a year off, when they go on trips and tour -] their parents payed for over 15 000$ not including plane tickets and personal expenses), girls have the option to:
a.teach in a school
b.work for a shliach (programs, teaching ect)
c.be a secretary
i mean really? are these our options? what if i cant stand kids? what if i dont have patience with kids? does it mean that i have to stay in an office from 8 to 6 doing computer work? well while im still young even if i hate what im doing the pay is enough to pay for my clothes since rent and food are taken care of (by shluchim or parents).
what about when we get married? so im supose to marry someone who has no degree whatsoever and who will sit and learn the whole day while i go work extra hours on a minimum pay to make money?
it doesnt make sense to me....this whole system is messed up. its okay if other people want to follow it but you can do what you want. be the smart one. hashem will find you a great guy.
(12/23/2010 9:27:43 PM)
199
To address the college concern
First of all, there are frum colleges that one may go to... second of all, all the girls that I know that went to college and basically lost many or most of their torah values didnt have their priorities set or strong before they went. They were people who had weak connections to yiddeshkeit to begin with and so the atmosphere just "helped" the situation. If you are a frum girl (or guy) with a level head and know where you stand the chances of you being swayed are less.
Also, dont be worried that a guy wont marry you because you went to college. Obviously if he doesnt support that then he's not for you. There are plenty of good, chassidish, aidel bochurim who are ok with having a wife who went to college. (Also you can always take online courses...)
(12/23/2010 9:47:32 PM)
200
to 195
the rebbe told very few people to go to college. the problem is when a person thinks thats what's best for him/her is coming from the nefesh ha'bhamis, like what 94 said.
(12/23/2010 9:55:15 PM)
201
to #181, #191 and everyone else talking about Chassidish Vs. Frum:
Just so you know, part of being Chassidish IS being frum! You cannot be a true Chossid if you don't care about Davening with a Minyan, wear short skirts, touch your beard, talk Loshon Hara, "rent from wal mart", speak to or hang out with "the opposite gender", watch movies, have bad Midos towards other people, and all those other things that are downright Ossur Al Pee Torah. Someone who can do ANY of the above, no matter if he/she learns a million Sichos a week, and goes to Mikvah 5 times a a day, and Farbrengs 4 times a week, (has the most smashed hat!), and knows every Chassidishe Niggun out there, you will still not be even close to a Chassidishe Bochur/girl!
BEING FRUM IS A PRECONDITION TO BEING CHASSIDISH! Doing all these "Chassidishe" things is not gonna make you a true Chossid, if you're not Frum!
(Although the truth is that to be a true Frum person, you have to be a Chossid and go Lifnim Mishuras Hadin).

Now, I know that's what you were probably getting at, but you must know that it's EITHER BOTH OR NONE!!!
And ya, about the Mashpia thing, I'm sure any Mashpia would agree with everything I wrote here!
(12/23/2010 10:00:28 PM)
202
relax!
there is more people like u :)
(12/23/2010 10:01:18 PM)
203
thanks!
198 great comment thanks you!
(12/23/2010 10:03:10 PM)
204
worried!!
you will never be able to change the mold- you will be able tp change yourslef and how your worried how others will view you!!
(12/23/2010 10:19:43 PM)
205
DR.
The rebbe gave me a brocha to go to college. It was a yerida, but so was Yaakov avinue's trip to Lavan. But he held strong. I was like anouther campus rabbi. I am now able reach yidden as an insider sometimes more than a shliach.

Remember you only need to find one bashert. Hatzlocha!
(12/23/2010 11:18:03 PM)
206
to sum it all up
basically, you want to go to college, listen to matisyahu, listen to goyishe music, watch movies etc. AND since you occasionally think about possibly learning a sicha, and because you daven every day, YOU WANT TO BE KNOWN AS CHASSIDISH.

IT'S ALL STRANGE, because such an external image contradicting what is internal may actually hinder you finding your match.



(12/23/2010 11:26:50 PM)
207
Looking for a Type 1 Bochur
B"H

I'm a Type 1 girl looking for a Type 1 Bochur. I know you are VERY few and probably not reading this comment, but if you are or know a Type 1 Bochur (never too Chassidishe far mir
Please send Type 1 Bochurim names to levvelzz@gmail.com.
(12/23/2010 11:36:42 PM)
208
the author - to 206
I would like to clarify a couple of things:
I would not like to listen to not jewish music - and you cannot compare mattisyahu to a goysh singer.
second of all - i do not and do not wish to watch movies
third of all - all i wish is to get a degree (and the job that best fits me is only offered in a non jewish colllege). I do not wish for a party life - why would i want to party with non jews???? All I want is to learn and get a degree... and not be labeled anything by anyone because its not right - there are so many different situations that it isnt right to call someone a bum just because they want to learn.
(12/24/2010 12:02:03 AM)
209
Education
This piece mentioned what is at the crux of every issue, but people seem to have missed it..
"Now, what can a Lubavitch girl who has no experience do? That's right! A teacher or an assistant."
If that is the level required of our teachers then how does any child have hope?
Education is one the most basic foundations of society, teaching comes with huge responsibilty and by setting a standard where hiring candiates to teach our children who have no further education (i.e. a diploma in education) then you are letting the rot set in quite early. How can you expect children to develop as they should when the tools provided aren't adequate. And its only natural that all the 'problems' we have now in regards to shidduchim and, in the wider sense, the general level of Chassidishkeit in our youth occur.
It should be a prerequisite that all teachers have the required skills and education......
But then again this is an article about whether 'college' is even acceptable let alone the standard that it should be.
(12/24/2010 12:11:30 AM)
210
Dear Author,
I don't think you need to be concerned about what others think, and definitly not what they label you- everything comes straight from G-d and he knows you the best. be concerned about doing the right thing through and through. Yes the Rebbe spoke generally negative about going to college, and the Rebbe also said that each person should have their own mashpia- so you need to speak to your mashpia ( and make sure she understands you) But that does not mean that every breathing thing in crown heights is qualified to give advice, just because they know how to say" The Rebbe Said" Just look at some of the comments posted here
(12/24/2010 12:32:00 AM)
211
crime
online degrees are almost not recognized
I do not know if Touro is well recognized
Stern has more choices than Touro
If you like teaching, get certification
(12/24/2010 12:45:39 AM)
212
lubavitcher girl
dont worry YES there are middle boy annd i am one of them dont give up
(12/24/2010 12:46:45 AM)
213
Well Put!
#209 - such a well thought out and important point!
(12/24/2010 12:54:46 AM)
214
To 139
139, I too am in college, and I too feel like a light in the dark. I am a leader in the class, I'm the one who helps the others out, the Jew is the role model here. It only makes my yiddishkeit stronger. At first I would encorage freinds to do the same. But then I saw how not all of them were haveing a hashpaa on the others - It was the other way around. So now I don't encorage anyone to take this path of darkness - the Rebbe knew better then me and you weather or not chassidim should have anything to do with these places.

You will see for yourself. Just because it works for you, doesnt mean it works for everybody. You must remember that not everybody was lucky as you to be brought up al taharas hakodesh and to be infused with our true principles of yiddishkeit as you were. It is a major responsibility you take by encorageing other kids to go to college. And by the way, frum colleges are not exactly kosher either. you will learn the same narishkeit and apikorsus tought at goyish places. steer clear of college, for your soul's sake.

But
(12/24/2010 1:03:18 AM)
215
I'm a middle boy
I do not come from a chabad family; Yet I would consider myself to be part of the second category you mentioned and I am having trouble to find a shiddukh. So yes it exists!
(12/24/2010 1:27:27 AM)
216
To 183
Your right. All of these people are most likely against tv's, yet they all have computers with which their children, and them can watch anything with.

(12/24/2010 6:50:40 AM)
217
there is no middle to chassidish.
either you are busy with the rebbe's inyonim of hafatzah and growing as a chosid or not. the rebbe never wavered from his focus and vacations were not in the picture. Unfortunately, the focus and message has become blurred. You can not be chassidish if your focus in life is about personal growth and personal comfort. chasing the dollar and creature comforts can still make you frum but not a true chosid as is defined in the rebbe's dictionary.
(12/24/2010 7:37:24 AM)
218
In college
I am finishing college in 2 weeks. I agree that college is an overwhelming environmental for many, but the Rebbe taught me to be focused. I am BH proud of my bear, and i feel the Rebbe encouraging me to make the best out of the situation by being a good example to the "frum" kids who are struggling bit. You gotta keep moving. Thats what its about. Sitting in your basement because you "cant" go to college I think is worse.


One day the rabbis who said don't go to college are the same rabbis who are going to iyh ask for help down the road, and you know what, I will give them happily
(12/24/2010 9:57:40 AM)
219
I was one of those bums back in the the day....
I went to TOURO for Education!! It was frowned upon!!

I did however open a business that had nothing to do with my education which makes plenty of money!!!!!11
(12/24/2010 11:46:24 AM)
220
wow~~~~~~~
thats was soo good like seriously wth are u considered bumed out if u go to college u can t still be considered a good girl??
(12/24/2010 12:29:16 PM)
221
A Bochur in 770
The author of this article has hurt my feelings.

I'm nowhere to be found in her categories. She has totally ignored me, most of my friends, and most bochurim who learn in 770. ('Learn' here means actually learn.)
The author calls a bochur who works and doesn't wear white shirts a 'regular chassidishe bochur'. So we're all above that level.
The problem is that her top pier says that we only think about learning all day, if we want to be viewed as 'very chassidish'.
So if my chavrusa isn't here, and I turn to my friend and discuss a girl's article on COL in which she foolishly assumes she knows bochurim well enough to categorize and define levels of chassidishkeit, we're not 'very chassidish' anymore, just regular chassidish.
And to clarify for the author: if a bochur is working in the day, he most likely will not be davening three times a day with a minyan, or finding time to be Koveah Itim for learning (3 prakim of Rambam), or even going to mikveh.
Obviously there are some bochurim who may do these things, but if you are not a bochur (ahem: the author of this article, or any shadchan who calls us up...), please be aware that you have no idea what makes bochurim chassidish, what makes them choose to go to mikveh, etc.
You are not a bochur, will never be a bochur, and therefore have a limited knowledge about bochurim.
The author has decided what she feels every very chassidishe bochur should act like, and what a regular chassidishe bochur can do, and still be called 'chassidish'... She has thought up her own definitions, without knowing any actual bochurim.
That's her problem, and that's why there are a hundred bochurim that were just told we do not belong in any category.
Next time have COL ask a bochur to write about different types of bochurim.
(12/24/2010 1:48:51 PM)
222
Ironic
I find it very ironic that the girls are educated in seminary not to go to college yet the moisdos pay at higher rate to teachers that have certification. This can make the difference between a family struggling to make ends meet and being able to provide a proper parnasa to your family.

I think there should also be a distinction made between someone going to college because they have nothing better to do and someone goal / career oriented that cannot do their chosen career without the proper training.
(12/24/2010 2:07:15 PM)
223
Everyone blaming the schools etc
I go to a girls HS in CH.
My teachers give me all they can. some are good some are not. Some classes are interesting. Some are not. I agree with some things they say. and some I don't. But one thing is for sure : I SET MY OWN VALUES. BASED ON WHAT I STRIVE FOR IS WHO I WILL BE.

I already made up my mind to go to college. whether or not i go to sem.
I don't have to follow any system, that way i won't have to blame any system. No two people are the same, so what works for you may not work for me.
follow the traditional system if you want to be traditional.
follow your heart. make your own decisions for yourself (or course within the bounds of discipline) and you won't have to worry. You will marry someone wonderful that thinks the way you do. Believe me, he's out there. And if he doesn't like the way you think, then he just isn't for you.

(12/24/2010 2:44:02 PM)
224
to 223
follow ;your heart and make your own decisions- just don't be convonced that because ot's your feeling, it becomes right. YOU MIGHT BE WRONG!
(12/24/2010 3:28:30 PM)
225
to number 223 and 208 others
the values you set are based on the way you recieve from your sorroundings. "There is a discussion in the gemara about whether its worse to walk down a street full of idols or full of not-tznius things. The gemara immediatly asks it's obviously worse to walk down a non-tznius street because it will arouse you whereas idols wont. Rather the gemara says that sorroundings have an influence on the person therefore being in a place full of idols can be very negative. The same thing nowadays the atmosphere of the street has affected the bochurim going to yeshiva to start wondering how they will be able to make a living."

That is more or less what the rebbe said at a farbrengen. And then he explained how there is nothing to worry about. The same thing applies to college and what the author said in comment 208 it doesn't matter about whether you will take part in all the partying etc. in college. The meer fact that one is in a place which in many ways contradicts yiddishkeit that in itself will have a bad affect on a person. I'm not just implying this from the rebbe's words the rebbe writes about these concepts in many letters. I know there are many people who might say, "well look at all the comments which are in favor of going to college so what could possibly be wrong". The same way those people are saying that you must "find whats good for you", that's what you must do. Just because many people are in favor of something it doesn't mean anything (just look at the media). And just like Torah is true and is only accesible to a few. So too over here. The whole world says college is good etc. but the rebbe knows better than the rest of the world and even you. And the Rebbe told very very few people to go to college.

So to some it up. LEARN THE IGROS AND SICHOS ABOUT GOING TO COLLEGE AND YOU WILL HAVE NO DOUBT THAT COLLEGE ISN'T MEANT FOR CHASSIDISHE PEOPLE. THEY EVEN HAVE A LIVING TORAH MY ENCOUNTER THING WHERE A LADY SPEAKS ABOUT WANTING TO GO TO COLLEGE AND THE REBBE SAID ITS NOT FOR HER.
(12/24/2010 3:59:41 PM)
226
college vs business
Did you ever think of going into business. That is where the real money is made. Show me a top philanthropist anywhere in the world and I'll show you a businessman, but not a professional. Most successful business people have no degree in business and usually no degree at all. In business, the sky is the limit. With a profession, the day you don't show up to work you don't get your hourly rate, period. There are so many ways to do business today, that one has a broad array of choices. I could go on and on. The point is, you want "tachlis" and you would to NOT shrug off the Rebbe's opposition to college? Get into business! All tax laws almost promote small business. Simply put, if you make a big salary, you pay big taxes. If you have a business, so much of your daily living can be legitimately part of your business, so it is non-income taxable. Enough for now
(12/24/2010 4:17:39 PM)
227
there are also frum colleges
(12/24/2010 6:21:52 PM)
228
I AGREE!!!!!!
You are so right! honestly, hashem has everything planned out. don't fret over anything. If you want to get a college degree it's admirable that your following your own ambitions and care to make a well-established salary of your own, then getting married early and having to relay on someone else! Have trust in Hashem and follow your heart because if you don't other people will influence your decisions and leave you unhappy.
Well written article! Please write more!
(12/24/2010 8:19:50 PM)
229
re:
re:
"The Rebbe has many shluchim. The Rebbe has shluchim who sit and learn in 770 and think about pure things. The Rebbe has shluchim who are into business and who like to travel. The Rebbe has shluchim who don't have full beards and who wear flip flops. All of 'em, they all, each and every one, belong to the Rebbe. Go full steam ahead, pursue what you want to pursue, and try very hard to find somebody ready who is willing to take that journey with you. Go after it."

"the rebbe has shluchim who x have full beards and who wear flip flops" - YET ANOTHER ISSUE ENTIRELY

how can they call themselves shulchim and be under the shluchim office if he trims his beard and she is oviously not tznius???

OUR SYSTEM IS SCREWED
schools
shidduchim
AND YES, SHLUCHIM!!!!!

im on shlichus i would know....
(12/25/2010 8:15:51 PM)
230
choose your type!
1: you are aware of the actual reality on planet earth

2: you are posting comments on collive

pick your pick and enjoy!
(12/25/2010 8:18:17 PM)
231
author of comment 225
What I mean to say at the end is that if you will read the igros and sichos of the rebbe about college you will realize that college isn't for FRUM people (or for that matter any Jewish people). It doesn't matter whether you are chassidish or not.
(12/25/2010 10:28:39 PM)
232
yes! its a crime!
(12/25/2010 10:38:55 PM)
233
Relax and do what you need to do be be the best you can be
My Aunt OBM in Miami Beach was a strong supporter of Lubavitch, lived a "lubavitch" orthodox lifestyle and received many awards for the mitzvot she and my uncle performed throughout the community and further. She attended a Catholic College in Fl and when registration was on Shabbos, the nuns registered for her. She became an educator and taught in the Lubavitch Schools in FL. I cannot think of a better person and she did what you want to do, she went to the school where the program she needed was offered. You can attend a university and remain frum, just like anything else, if you are a chasidisha girl, you will be one whether in Crown Heights or whereever you go because this is who you are.
I am 51 and just graduated with my BSN, I did it staying the same chasidisha person that I always have been, and I attended a catholic university for my RN to BSN portion. Do what you need to do to be the best you can, enjoy your life and make a difference in the world. I wish you the best of luck
(12/25/2010 10:59:09 PM)
234
get a life!
everybody do what they want to do stop being a yenta
dont be the trend do what is good for you!! yo guys sounding nuts thinking u control the world
(12/25/2010 11:24:51 PM)
235
in short
i don't have time to read all the 234 comments so i might be saying what someone has already written.
in short what u gain in one area u will lose in another. don't fool yourself into thinking that u will stay just as frum and chasidish in college. we daven every day that Hashem should keep us away from temptation and u r thinking of putting youreself IN the temptation, not wise.
judging by the amount of comments this is obviously a very controversial debate. i think many people struggle with this. but in a case where we don't know what to do we follow the advice of our rebbeim, who know way more than we do on this.
trust the rebbe/hashem and u wont be let down.
good luck.
(12/26/2010 12:24:44 AM)
236
College =bum??? Ha!
I can't believe that there are those who call guys or girls that are actually doing something with their lives and going to college: "bums".
(12/26/2010 4:48:54 AM)
237
#17
#17, SPOT ON.
(12/26/2010 9:32:30 AM)
238
gr8 letter
1) The Rebbe said that when you can't decide s/t go to an

unbiased, objective person. Go to him/her with the

kavana of doing the Rebbe's will of having a Mashpia-

this will give him the Rebbe's koach to address your issue correctly.

2) In my opinion,
the idea of going to a non-Jewish college

environment...(especially before marriage).....it's simply asking for trouble.

3) S/t very interesting I heard that R' Manis Friedman said

lately. "We are born married." There's s/o out there for

each of us. At the exact right time we will find him/her.

Btw Simon Jacobson gives really sage advice.

Also, it hurts me to hear that people were looked down on,

called terrible names etc. This is not the way of

Chassidus. In this weeks sicha of Shmos 5751, The

Rebbe says that the prerequisites for giving mussar to

someone is 1) Ahavas Yisroel 2) Humility.

S/t parents, teachers friends want to discourage a

decision b/c they care about the other person- but in doing so we all

have to retain our sensitivity to others' feelings and dignity - #1.
(12/26/2010 11:00:16 AM)
239
I really dont get the tumult
The Rebbe said dont go to college for 2 main reasons.
Immorality/ temptation etc..
and learning goyishe topics/ideas

Nowadays there are so many frum college options where these 2 points are moot. Classes are separate for men and women, and learning is geared to the frum person.
Its almost like sitting in seminary or highschool except you are getting credits for doing so. Thats all. I really dont see the difference. So go to college get your degree and go to work.

As for going to a non Jewish college where these 2 issues are most certainly prevalent, well there is simply no excuse in the world for putting yourself in that position. The Rebbe said dont go, so we dont go, there is a reason why.

But they dont apply to frum colleges.
I really dont get the uproar.
(12/26/2010 12:55:43 PM)
240
OK i see the problom
in Chabad today we have allot of problems but one main one is that we have no leader so its true that the Rebbe was against college but he was also against allot of things that are now OK in Chabad so every case is different"the Rebbe told some Bocharim to go to college" so we have to all make are selves a RAV or a Mashbea & try to do our best!
(12/26/2010 2:04:47 PM)
241
WRITE TO THE IGRIS
I THINK ITS A GR8 IDEA!
(12/26/2010 3:00:19 PM)
242
To the author:
Go to college and please don't worry about anything! Plenty of regular Crown Heights guys (including me and all of my friends, category 3 sans the flip flops and TV for the future kids) would look up to you for having the maturity of going to college, not the other way around.
(12/26/2010 3:15:25 PM)
243
The Real problem
I feel as though the real problem is that there are not ENOUGH frum people in college. A chasidish person conducts his or herself in such a way that sets a beautiful example on how to live an appreciative and spiritual life. This being said, I think it's a great idea for more frum people to go to college because they can set that example for the rest of the world to see. We need more frum leaders!!!!! It's unfortunate, but realistically many of the leaders in this world go to college. And of course I'm not being ignorant of the amazing people that have not attended college, but it's just a fact that college is the route to the desirable salary. Thanks to chabad on campus-it's easy for frum people to maintain their yiddishkeit while still pursuing their passion!
We need more frum people in every kind of profession, otherwise the goys will take over!
(12/26/2010 5:06:46 PM)
244
A FAKER
YOU CAN BE IN COLLEGE AND REMAIN STRONG AND FRUM. YOU CAN REMAIN IN YESHIVA AND BE FREI. THE PERSON HAS FREE CHOICE IN THIS WORLD TO BE SHOMER TORAH AND MITZVOTH. IT ALL DEPENDS ON WHETHER OR NOT YOU HAVE THE INNER STRENTH OR NOT.YOU MAKE YOUR SURROUNDINGS. YOUR SURROUNDINGS DO NOT MAKE YOU.
(12/26/2010 7:43:18 PM)
245
How'd your PARENTS let you slip through the cracks?
I'm a baal teshuva, and the language and ideas (me, me, me) in this post and in the comments by those who agree with the post (using language like "sista girl", etc) is exactly what I grew up with and am mamash trying to get away from. Why would you water down such a beautiful tradition and potential. Believe me, all the mind junk you see out in the "cool world" is not greener or better than what you have.
(12/26/2010 8:00:14 PM)
246
Please, you need to be WORKing on getting married #1
I'm 35, not frum, and, as a result, I did the typical 4 years of undergrad and 2 years in graduate school. I have a bachelor and masters degree. Big deal. For what?

I was single - and suffering every single year of my life, jumping through all of secular society's "I'm supposed to be great" hoops, so-to-speak.

I just got married at 34, thank G-d. In fact, I wasn't even thinking about marriage, just about myself and money (a miserable existence) until I acquired a MASHPIA in the form of a Chabad shaliach, and he asked (or should I say, he "challenged" me) to do and be better.

He asked me, "Do you ever think about getting married?" And later in our relationship, he advised me that I need to "marry higher" than myself. Indeed, MARRIAGE is where my LIFE started, 100%.

The past year and a half, being married, has been worth more LIFE than all of the 33 years prior - an empty existence of meandering on my own, ignoring "matters of the heart," because society (and by extension, my education) does not teach such practices or place value on such matters.

Before marriage, college taught me that my whole human experience and the world was about reasoning everything (...like how one can use reason to disagree with or fight against the Rebbe or with one's parents). How wrong.

Please work on your matters of the heart (where your hurt is). This is the REAL education - that you can only attain through marriage.

Rest your mind - the worry, doubt, negative thoughts about yourself and others - and pour open your heart to others, serving them and G-d's will.

MARRIAGE is the highest endeavor you could work towards. Please get married first, then you and your chatan, together with Hashem, can discover together what is best for the three of you.

Also know in marriage that when, G-d forbid, you're not doing well - in whatever area of your life (like not having a job) - your chatan and Hashem will be there to support you and be your strength.

...The converse, when, G-d forbid, your chatan is having a challenging time. All THREE of you, together, will work together as a family. You will work towards shalom bayit. ...That is, you'll have plenty of work to do once you get married.

Also, what do you actually know about "education" - have you ever even DONE it? Or is your understanding of it superficial and by hearsay?

There's many roles you can serve in education or in any business or industry - not just teaching, for example. And you don't just receive learning from a school/an institution. You can learn by having a mentor, for example, or doing an apprenticeship/shadowing/networking.

...The HUMAN element... What do you know about working with others? Forget about worshipping knowledge and the pursuit of knowledge and work on your relationships and place your kavanah on fostering and building healthy relationships .

That's what will be there for you when times are tough, not the things you know or a job that can be fleeting, especially as you change throughout your life.

Hatzlacha, chesed, rachmanas, chaim, v' shalom
(12/26/2010 9:31:25 PM)
247
Today's youth: thinking of jobs like how think about dating
"...Ech, this job is this and this job is that." "I can't do that job because I don't like this and I don't like that..." "Only an idiot would do that kind of job..." So fickle and missing the point, entirely.

Young adults are treating everything and everybody like the objects they buy in the store (..."Oh, the Rebbe said this, but that's not convenient for me, so I'm 'returning' it.").

First, there's the illusion that they have full control of what they're choosing, because there's a million choices. And then when they pick something out to buy, they're really just "trying it out," thinking that they control the option of getting another one, disposing it, or returning it if there's just one thing "wrong" or inconvenient about it.

G-d help us - we need parents who give their attention/time and wisdom to their children! Parents, STOP neglecting and spoiling the children. Don't expect the school to raise your children and teach them everything about becoming a functional adult.

Please, instill values so they can be adults with direction, koach, and kavanah.

Please don't leave your children with confusion and doubt - spend time with them and talk about life with them. Ask them questions about their lives and situations that are confusing or bothering them. Get to know them, their concerns/their fears.

Parents, if the topics of discussion with your children are difficult or uncomfortable, talk about it with your spouse or mashpia, and MAKE A PLAN - don't just ignore it and hope it goes away by distracting your children with MORE, MORE, MORE superficialities and material goods.

Parents, SLOW it down and regroup!
(12/27/2010 1:29:52 AM)
248
La-la-la: YOUR personal dreams are #1 - Also to 218, 223, and 228, and the like.
Hi, so, you're going to go to college full-time (daily, go to classes, do homework, work on projects, and study for quizes and exams); prepare and keep Shabbos, Yom Tovim, and chagim; daven and study/keep-up with your Yiddishkite; take care of your basic needs, like cook, clean, and sleep.

AND you're going to focus on and have clear thoughts for finding your basheret? And you don't have a mashpia. Then, when you graduate, you're going to keep on going (that is, "keep moving"), and show everyone how ambitious and successful you are - all by yourself, you're such as star! ...You really have been exposed too much to secular "values".

Good luck managing all of that on your own and finding a man who's going to put up with all of that, while needing you to run the home and family. I guess, you'll use all that money you make to hire strangers/nannies to raise your children - great legacy, personal connection, and dedication to your family. Realize that the female sets the tone of her home and family - a HUGE responsibility AND honor - a real aishes chayil.

So, be careful what you wish for... you just might get it. It's not so romantic what you're wishing for. It's no wonder how people under such pressure (... the self-competition and self-comparison with the secular world as a standard of one's self worht), one can easily be allured off-course and go after all the secular "fixes" that appeal to and provide instant gratification to your nefesh bahamas.

When are you going to work on getting married? Have children? Serve others, your family? When will you have time for all this? You realize you're human, limited, and fallable, though you may have been a star in your small, comfortable, isolated world, under your parents and being top-dog at the sem. It's not like going to be like that "out there".

Where do these ideas come from that you need everything to make sense to fill your desires and your urges need to be satisfied, or you're not living? Where does the idea come from that you have control of everything/have it all figured out - even down to making categories of people and how the world works? Humility, please.

These are secular "values". Where is this secular influence coming from in your life? Do you and your friends and family enjoy talking about secular media - sports, actors, shows? Do you spend a lot of time on the internet? Do you like shopping? How have the eyes gone astray? Please, how does this happen?
(12/27/2010 2:53:29 AM)
249
To 239, 111, 153, and all you frumsters
To 239, not true.

I spent four years in FRUM Touro and can tell you that their curriculum is littered with apikorsus

And by the way, Dr B Lander once asked the Rebbe for his haskomeh for a frum college (under the cover of "machon leparnasa"), to which the rebbe refused

So don't say that frum colleges are different
(12/27/2010 4:34:05 AM)
250
246
Perhaps the best comment of this entire page.
(12/27/2010 4:40:02 AM)
251
Don't let anybody tell you what to do
Do what you think is right unless somebody else takes responsibility for your livelihood.
If somebody says that if you listen to them you will be successful and if not they will support you don't listen to all the people who never succeeded in their lives and don't want you to succeed either because it will make them look bad.
Do what you think makes sense that you will be able to support yourself and your family.
(12/27/2010 11:51:43 PM)
252
college degrees
As someone who spent too much time at college, it seems the kefira is in the HUMANITIES, NOT in "hard" sciences. Humanities deal more w/ideas of the history of mankind, delving into the Hellenistic point of view. But why don't you just go to an online school? Lifehacker.com
has very good resources on different schools & how to save money on tuition & such. There are frum women in Eretz Ysroel who've attended law school & gotten degrees. Many of their lectures are online so they can iron & cook while listening to their professor.
I also attended Bar Ilan University & a fellow student of the opposite gender began to stare at me during class & ultimately approached me & told me of a strong attraction. I responded that I was engaged, but was ignored.
I think it might even be an interesting idea to do an online degree w/your spouse, shared activities draw people closer. You really think, though, what type of work you see yourself doing & go after that particular degree. If you can do it online, so much the better!!! That way you are far more protected from hormone-infested campuses.

best,
R in Jerusalem
(12/30/2010 2:12:21 PM)
253
246
246!! About time some one said it
(1/3/2011 1:24:37 AM)
254
Choose your register!
Very well argumented; however your classification and generalization system should still be put aside.
You have the right to present the issue the way you did and even more to conclude the allusions that you prompted.
The reader will agree with the logistic and thought presented about the social and economical aspect. For the religious, cultural, and educational registers more should be said; Baaley Teshuvah vs. FFB. Russian vs. French, Israeli vs. American; educated vs. hairheads etc...
As for a Chatan, please take your time before and speak clearly about the issues and think critically.
Wish you the best and a lot of Mazel un Glick.
(1/16/2011 10:52:32 AM)
255
shmuly
I am a bahur who finished his smiha and I would like go in a school of business / finance but frum like to know if there is a good school for that in NY but I dont have GED or hight school
thank you
(3/28/2011 4:44:47 PM)
256
To the Author
i applaud you for understanding that you are not meant to be part of the education field. I am still in high school and i've had numerous teacher, fresh out of seminary, who weren't meant to be teachers. Guess who suffered? we the students! we had to go home and teach ourselves. being a teacher is a very important job ( how ever little it is recognized), and not everyone is cut out for it, contrary to public belief. so here's a 14 yr olds advice to you: pursue a job you are good at and enjoy! good luck:)
(6/15/2011 10:07:24 PM)
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