Dec 15, 2010
Are We Ever Ready to Marry?
What does a 23 year old bochur think about dating? One bochur writes what he thought about Manis Friedman's lecture on today's shidduch crisis Tuesday evening.
Editor's note: This article was written by a 23 year-old bochur who requested to stay anonymous in order to have the freedom to say what needs to be said, and hence give a better perspective to people.
By Anonymous
Last night it was bitterly cold outside, but Rabbi Manis Friedman was heating things up with a lecture here in Crown Heights. The topic was: "Is there a shidduch crisis?” I attended in order to tell COLlive readers what a 23 year-old bochur thinks and feels about this hot and current topic. What is going through our minds? Wouldn’t you like to know?
There are many guys and girls looking to get married. It isn't easy to try so hard for so long. It's painful, and I am sure many lose lots of sleep over it. So what is the root of the problem? Where is the problem stemming from, and why now, in 2010, is the problem peaking?
There were several points that Rabbi Friedman mentioned which are so true, yet we all suffer from it and fail to recognize it as a problem.
"Instead of worrying who you’re going to marry, we used to worry how we are going to marry."
Can't we all relate to that? Don't we all say we want someone to be a certain height or weight? Or we want the family to have a certain amount of means
The problem, Rabbi Manis was telling the crowd, is that singles are looking to marry the perfect girl, instead of looking to simply get married.
"Our focus is blurred and our fundamentals have changed. It used to be that 'I want to get married.' Once you had that in mind, you would find someone suitable. Now it's more like "I'm not ready to get married, but if I find this amazing girl then I will marry her."
He said that in the secular world it is not about marriage being holy or a necessity. "Just because you found a nice girl, that is not a reason to get married, besides for the fact that there is no such thing as the perfect girl. You get married because it is the right thing to do and because it is sacred."
"We have to put marriage on the front burner."
He said: "You need to get married, and in order to do that you find the right person. We have to be focused on the important things. For example: What kind of a home am I going to have; What kind of values am I going to teach my children, how will I raise them to be good? Those were the concerns."
Now let me tell you, I am guilty of all things mentioned so far, and all of the rest of the things I am going to write. I have not been on a date yet, but I know that I think with the wrong thought process.
In my mind the most candid statement of the lecture was: "A lot of people are honest enough to say, 'What would my friend say if I marry her?' Instead of thinking what is best for me, people are busy thinking what others will say, which will eventually lead to comparing wives. Whether it is about who is better looking, or who's more popular. That happens when you are marrying a girl. If you are marrying your bashert then there is nothing to compare. Would a woman then say 'maybe I should marry her husband?' No way. Because you know this is the right person for me, this is who was destined for me, and that is all there is to it."
This is an idea I have never heard anyone verbalize before, but now that Rabbi Friedman said it, it is glaringly obvious. We have to focus on the right thing.
"You'll never be ready enough for marriage."
He said: "Partly because of society, we have changed what we are supposed to be looking for. No matter what the cause is, the fact is that our priorities have changed. But if marriage is the goal then it's much easier to find the right person."
Truth is, when I think about marriage it’s about "What will she look like? What will others think? Let me wait until I am ready."
I hate to say this because I have disagreed with this idea until last night, that "if you think you are ready then you are most definitely not, and it can be reckless."
My question is, if the fact that our focus has shifted is such a widespread issue, then how is it solved? Rabbi Friedman's answer was that the parents have to instill the proper values in their children.
However, how do the people who are looking to get married now shift their focus back to the right way? I think these novel ideas and realizations have to be publicized and talked about.
I know guys talk about marriage, how much more so girls are talking about marriage.
Why not talk about these topics? Why can't friends talk to each other how I want to find the one who was destined to be for me? Not about what type of job he or she will have, or what he or she will look like.
"If he's tall then he's tall, there is nothing you can do about it.”
It is definitely hard to think that way, and actually internalize that. Once people start talking about it and thinking more about it, it will become more of a widespread feeling.
There was an article on COLlive a couple of months ago about parents wanting to organize classes to teach singles in the Chabad community about relationships and marriage.
Why is that so pertinent and important? Because especially us guys, have zero education when it comes to this topic. We know nothing about it. How are we supposed to know anything of the sort? Now that I think about it, with the lack of knowledge in this topic, it is easier for the wrong ideas and focus to creep into our minds.
Knowledge is power. There is a major need for guys and girls to attend classes about what our focus should be comprised of, relationships, and what marriage is about. That would be a great step in the right direction towards maintaining the proper ideas and mentality for finding "The right one." A.K.A. The destined one.
I’m far from perfect, and I will have to work on myself regarding all of this, but knowing the problem is half the solution.
I don't see any practical advice in this.
get back to me when you have dated for 6 years straight..err well rather hopefully you wont have to.
Dating is not easy and can be painful if not frustrating at the very least least, so you little pisher with your fancy writing as if you its so simple and you already have it all figured out from going to one inspiring lecture is not going to get much praise.
Kudos to you though for working on yourself and trying to ready yourself for marriage by going to lectures pre dating (if that was indeed your intentions, unless you were just hoping to get a nice juicy article which you can then anonymously post on COL and get respect from it somehow)
the problem is that the parents are the ones looking for the boys and not being realistic who the girls really
for the girls who say they are looking for a guy who dose not wear jeans or he learnt smicah (its all coming form the parents)
its time the parents to let up and look at who there daughters are let the girls have the say if they don't mind if the guy wears jeans or had smiach
we are leaving in a new world smicah today is not what it was back in the 60 or 70 or 80 to day its a lot different
guys today are working guys and yes some do wear jeans
p.s to the parents once again you need to be more lenient on things
You get married because it is the right thing to do and because it is sacred."
What is that supposed to mean??
That you should just get married because its holy??
There is no doubt that marriage is sacred but it doesn't take away from the fact that a person needs to marry someone that is right for him / her. They cannot just get married to anyone - because its important to get married...
I don't understand what he was trying to say but it didnt come out so well...
Interesting to note but not surprised the women's section in attendance doubled if not tripled the men's section.
Where are the fathers?
Where are the single bochurim? (few did attend but scarcely)
I am encouraged that the writer seeks to be guided and desires to learn how to focus on the "how" and not just the "why". Unfortunately, the majority of bochurim feel it below their dignity or embarrassing to address these issues.
I encounter bochurim who are wary of those setting up shidduchim with ulterior motives.
Bochurim who have encountered "dating boredom".
Bochurim who are great on mivtzoim yet when dating feel intimidated.
The solution that I emphasis with everyone I deal with is HOW to be proactive and HOW to take positive steps as Rabbi Manis Friedman and the author indicated to learn and focus on the "HOW" of getting married.
There is no crisis if we do our part genuinely - the Aibeshter will definitely do His.
Rabbi Moishe Raitman - ShadchanCoach.com
Are you serious Rabbi Manis?
You are telling Bochurim, that in making the most important decision of our lives, a lifetime commitment, we shouldn't carefully scrutinize our decision?
What a preposterous proposition!
Shiduchim is certainly a difficult problem with many complexities.
Hey Mr. - unless you started "working on this" when you were 17, you havent been working on it even remotely close to as long as some of us out there. keep your inexperienced and foolish comments to yourself.
they dont look ,Think dos vos Mdarf nisht . You can farbreing or even work and have shiurim , but your out for lunch you need a mashpia lern a bissel chaisdis , vestu shlophen besser. Dont try to be so sofisticated
How can he comfortably make a statement "everyone will find their bashert"? Although, I understand that for many or most they will and it will do them better if they didn't worry. However, how does that work for the ever growing minority?
Yes, it's nice to sound encouraging to people and to turn a blind eye but sometimes you need to look at the facts and find a solution.
He did not claim to, or actually do either.
Are you saying I should go marry a bochur whom I am not attracted to, and who will not be able to support our family because these are just small details that don't make or break a marriage?
Thanks, but no thanks.
.
am afraid you are wright, in the perfect chasidishe world, but your not in the perfect world, we need to understand our youth to help
oh, my bad, YOU are the 'mature' ones, and he is the 'baby'.
just a few simple rules in life would take us all a lot further:
be nice.
be polite.
don't hate on others
that said, you all sound frustrated and hurt and i can relate to that. dating scene can be trying, painful, and discouraging.
keep your spirits up - you WILL get there eventually. Hashem truly does have someone for everyone, He wants us to find our 'basherts'.
Rabbi Friedman is being misunderstood, he did not say 'marry anyone, it is only important to get married', i think what he is saying is that if we get back to the holiness inside the issue (i.e. marrying because it is what OUR CREATOR wants us to do, the right thing) and then approach each shiddach as a good potential unless and until it is ruled out for a VALID reason, we have much better chance to see it positively.
if we say I am 22 years old and who is the 'best' girl/guy i can go out with, and i have a list a mile long of what i want and need (cause i am so in tune with my needs and my desires and my value.... lol) then we will be alone for a good long time.
Focus on doing the right thing, and then goodness and blessings come your way. focus on selfishness and being spoiled, and allowing 'dating' to become this lowly activity (sharing info with friends, checking people out, judging appearances before meeting, etc.etc.etc.) and you are taking the 'external' and making it the 'essential'.
the core of shidduchim is MARRIAGE. marrying, because that is the thing to do at this stage in life, in order to fulfill G-d's will. then the 'right' person WILL come to you.
you might have a point, someone has to be employed on a sallery and someone that truly cares for todays youth and not for profit making
Their e-mail contact info is SNLA770@gmail .com
(Shidduch Network of Los Angeles)
For those who think M.F is out of touch and old-fashioned and that the modern approach of singles events and years of dating are the way to go, please don't whine to us about a crisis. You think your way is the right way at 27 and 37? Enjoy singledom.
i think the venom you have, is a big part of today's situation
17 hours ago · Like · Comment
I did not get married because I liked his style (hated his glasses) or his looks, ( he was ok, cute - but no stud), or was cool etc - he was just a hardworking, intelligent, chassidishe bochur that was aidel and nice.
And 15 plus years later, I can say - we are the best of friends, finish each others sentences, respect each other, and are truly in love.
Manis is on the money. Love comes from marriage, not before marriage - before marriage it is about what is in it for ME, what is good for ME.
After marriage, you learn to make it a WE.
Lust fades, love stays. Loves comes after because of what you do for each other. With every kind act, you build a brick of love. Putting your needs aside for the other, builds a brick of love. Giving of yourself, even when you are not in the mood, buiilds a brick of love.
And then, with time, brick by brick, you have a house of love and happiness, a house where Hashem feels comfortable to reside.
So, in short Manis is right on. And to all you prospective suitors out there; Eizeh Hoo Chachom, Halomed Mikol Adom.
Dont dismiss something because it does not reflect your worldview. The information gained may build your world.
goo luck
So what are you willing to compromise on? How about if you found someone that was otherwise perfect but wasn't the most attractive? Not good enough? What if he/she was attractive but dumb as a doorknob? Work better for you?
Rabbi Friedman’s point is that you should compromise on things that are not (or shouldn't be) essential in a marriage, and never compromise on what is (or should be) essential. Speak to your parents/Mashpia to figure out which is which.
Good luck and Bsuros Tovos B'korov!
Also, when people say im so old and still not married it means there not ready. And if someone lives there whole life without getting married it means they were too imature their whole life for the stage of marriage. The other option is that they arent just trying so hard.
It used to be that when you got back from seminary you started dating a that year. Now people wait a long time. Now im not contradicting myself because once again: once you get rid of that self image stuff you should find a shidduch right away!. There are some singles that are FULLY MATURE RIGHT AFTER SEMINARY AND THEY WAIT BECAUSE THEY THINK OTHERWISE. They go to teaching seminary or otheriwise.
Hope this helped the supposedly "SHIDDUCH RISES"
2. Raboysai - there is no need to insult the young bochur/author, even if you don't agree with what he said
and I give him a Yasher Koach for his efforts
3. There does seem to be a shiduch 'crisis', otherwise it would not be mentioned in the
Pan Kloli at the Ohel or at gatherings of Anash
4. I agree with the pyramid theory (that bochurim have more girls to choose from) and therefore (maybe) they lose perspective
5. I think that many young men are very concerned about parnoso and are delaying getting married
Thanks to the class I now know if shidduchim are bashert or bechira chafshis and where meforshim differ in their opinions, what the torah says about prepartion for marriage, age of marriage, smicha or college before marriage, how to make a marriage last, what I can do about it and so much more.
TAKE THE CLASS AND ANSWER ALL THE QUESTIONS ONCE AND FOR ALL. Torah give its opinion about everything find out what it is from the source.
what would u say then?
respect his honesty, I am 26 and been dating for a while and completely relate to what he is writing, very impressive
please try and understand.
SHMULY BOTEACH HAS BEEN QUITE AN ADVOCATE OF THIS POSITION THAT THE AMERICAN MALE IS VERY SHALLOW.
DENNIS PRAGER BEING ONE OF THE MOST INFLUENTIAL TALK SHOW HOSTS OF THE COUNTRY TOOK ON SHMULY BOTEACH IN A DEBATE ON THIS ISSUE, AND FOR ONCE YOU CAN HEAR A SERIOUS APPROACH AND PERSPECTIVE ON BOTH SIDES OF THIS ISSUE.
I WOULD ENCOURAGE PEOPLE TO VIEW THIS DEBATE 5 PART VIDEO http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8660906537484001607#docid=-8676952075716773317
MAYBE ITS NOT A ONE SIDED PROBLEM
How about we look at the JEW. . . in perspective a bit before diving right into the whole marriage concept. . .
JEW - is this walking contradictional hypocritical radical. . . shifting back and forth from holy vs. impure.
Good Inclination Vs. "evil" inclination.
We walk around, with the hold Torah as our guide. . as human beings.
Having G-D, Hashem, on our minds constantly.
After all we were put here on the earth, for a purpose. . .
We are told, that, everything, EVERTHING happens for a reason.
That, we are all given obtacles and challenges through-out our entire lives...
That no one is given a task that he cant over-come,
with this in mind. . . Everything is set-up for us, the way we can handle it.
(I do not want to digress to far off into the topic of free will).
Given this small, little intro. .
Marriage. .
Besheret. .
Your "Soul Mate". . . .
Maybe, G-D has it all set-up. . . ?? maybe. . .
There is a reality that we live in that this whole concept of MARRIAGE, has been reconstructed, under the notion - regarding.. wether or not. . .should I or shouldnt I... This girl/boy, that girl/boy. . .
LEAVE IT ALONE!
It sounds like a big burden to be going through a stressful decision making process, let alone having all the exterior factors of todays society...take for example, todays modern social interactions...we live in a world which is new, flourishing information is coming from every direction you look.
And yet again, I digress. . .
The point I am looking to make here (I apologize for taking up too much of the readers time).
Is That, - Marriage, if your ready, your ready . . . If your not, your not.
There is no "Mr or Mrs RIGHT"
There is YOU, as a person. IN this world.
You do the best you can, which is the best you can do for yourself.
G-D will provide.. . . .Doesnt he always? Isnt that the idea?
You do everything that you can, and G-D will PROVIDE.
I think that means with a wife as well. . .
I'm not sure why there is all this fuss about the whole marriage idea, when Is'nt being a JEW having complete faith that G-D is taking care of you, in ALL That you do!
..maybe something to think about.
MOSHIACH is here.
Know this.
I will see you all very soon in Israel.
We will eat well and sing and dance.
Learning Torah and spreading light throughout the entire universe.
Forever.
I LOVE YOU ALL.
(I apologize for wasting anyones time, or for having this post seem a bit "long-winded", It did feel nice to get this off my chest, thank you for letting me share, thank you for taking the time to read this. .... much appreciated : )
Y
This is my line: don't ask me about my dating life, we're in a recession.
vihamayvin yuvin
"Reach NOT with a full mind, reach with a full HEART." Chesed v' Emunah, l'chaim!
It appears that you recognize that SOME compromise(s) will be necessary ("I agree there is no such thing as the perfect spouse"), but you write "it means not settling on things that are meaningful to me". Sounds like you already agree with Rabbi Friedman. If so, you'll be fine. You probably won't become a part of the crises.
Hatzlacha and Bsuros Tovos!
MOST OF THE REMARKS HAVE NO CLUE.
MANY YRS A GO,A NON OBSERVANT JEW ASKED ME,HOWS IT POSSIBLE YOU GUYS GO OUT FOR A WEEK AND GET ENGAGED,AND WE HAVE TO GO OUT FOR YRS AND EVEN LIVE TOGETHER AND WERE STILL NOT SURE.
WELL I EXPLAINED TO HIM IN A NUTSHELL,THAT WE AS OBSERVANT(CHASSIDIC YIDDEN) KNOW HOW WE LIVE AS YIDDEN AND WHERE WE ARE GOING AS FRUM YIDDEN,SO WHEN WE GO OUT ,ITS BASICALLY TO SEE IF WE MATCH PERSONALITY WISE.
NOWADAYS,I HATE TO SAY ITS DIFFERENT.
NO ONE IS SURE WHAT KIND OF YIDDISHE LIFE THEY LIKE TO LIVE ..IN ADDITION TO ALL THE DEMANDS,THAT BOTH SIDES HAVE.
AND NOW FOR MAYBE ONE OF THE MAIN REASONS,IS THE PARENTS!!!
I THINK I COULD GET A 10 MILLION LOAN FROM A BANK WITH LESS DUE DILIGENCE THEN WHAT PARENTS ARE INVESTIGATING ,DEMANDING,ETC.
THE POOR YOUNG BOYS AND GIRLS CANT EVEN GET OUT OF THE GATE AND MEET.
TAKE ALL ARE BOYS AND GIRLS,PUT THEM ON ISLAND FOR A MONTH , 90% WILL HOOK UP
GOOD LUCK TO ALL THE BOYS AND GIRLS
QUESTION: Is there a tape available for people to buy? If so, please post contact information. Thanks.
I think one advantage of starting dating young is that you are in an idealistic mode, fresh from seminary where these ideas are as common as the air you breathe, fresh from BR's habayis hayehudi classes where you hear Rabbi Paltiel saying: "kinderlach, choose wisely. What kind of a grandfather do you want for your grandkids?" As much as this sounds "old school" it is the Rebbe's approach! Living and breathing this isn't "old school" or naivete--it's true maturity. (Notice how the MO world is struggling with a shidduch crisis majorly! So who's to say their "system" works?!)
I got married only six years ago and my entire approach was simply that this would be the right one unless proven otherwise. In other words, the dating process began with the assumption that this bochur would be the one, unless I saw something wrong. The main things Yiras Shamayim, a mentsch, and of course hamshachas halev, a feeling of chemistry of some sort. What if he didn't have a great sense of humor or a great voice or the most charismatic personality? These things do not a home make.
Because ultimately, who are we to know how things will turn out? One who is definitely going on shlichus may end up in business, one who has everything going for him may just not find a job successfully, one who wants a good parnassa may end up struggling terribly and in the reverse!
We just have to be a bit simpler--and like the Rebbe told Mrs. Chana Sharfstein, recognize that true love is not infatuation and romance --that's the stuff of novels! Pure fantasy. True love is giving and sharing and building--that creates a real connection and true love.
What are the qualities that you need to look for in a man/woman who will build and support the kind of home you want?
The others can rant and attack but they're single and for good reason.
DO NOT take it lightly. DO consider looks, DO consider parnassa, DO consider middos. Consider EVERYTHING, and do so carefully, because marriage is a life-long commitment.
If I had done what some are suggesting here, I would have married the wrong girl, because it took me years to find my bashert.....and yes, contrary to what many are saying here, there is such thing as a perfect match, I have been married to her for almost 10 years now.
There are many complex and unique guys and girls out there...
Look, i'm 25 year old guy.. I dont get any shiuduch offers.. why not?
I dont worry it though, i just find this whole shiduch crisis to be laughable
I dont want a bland date.. I want to share my personalty, express my views and opinions..
I as well as other guys I know, are looking for women with more personalty..
I feel like girls out there are way shallow.. maybe many guys are too I dont know..
So heres my truth, I rather be gardening than shopping.. and i'm a guy ;)
I see so many people in shul who have been married for a while who barely speak to their spouses. I can't even begin to tell you about the countless times that I have been invited over for a Shabbos meal and the bad vibes between husband and wife make me uncomfortable. I just don't want to end up like one of them.
That said, I want to thank the author, as well as the more intelligent commenters here - you've helped me understand something.
My perspective on marriage is in line with what Rabbi Friedman says - bh, I am glad I had the opportunity to hear him speak before, and when I was going out recently, I was quite happy with the process, the person - everything! There were some things, which potentially could have bothered me, but because I was so happy in every other regard, it didn't even occur to me to be bothered by them. What a shock I was in for, when after more than a few times of meeting, the answer came back as a no. Yes, we agreed on just about everything, had the same goals, opinions, viewpoints, etc, got along well, but apparently there was a certain "something" that the other person was looking for, and didn't find. This has been bothering me to no end, but after reading this article and comments, I understand better how the other person could have simply been looking for "the right/perfect one", as opposed to looking for marriage, like I was.
I believe we are seeing the results of thinking we can attach to anyone including G-d without genuine, authentic love. You may live together, share a roof and children, yet It is not possible to become one without a melding of your souls; that can only be done with genuine feelings toward another.
I think if we were to really do some serious soul searching we would see our youth are leaving for this same reason.
Its #77.. I also want goats and horses :)
We also need to re-examine the job breakdown.. not all women are great cooks, why shouldent the husband cook too?
YES, you get married cuz Torah says to
YES, you get married to the one who shares your values, who you see yourself raising Chassidishe children with
NOT to the one who 'seems' perfect to you
Cuz when you get home after the Chupa, she ain't so perfect anymore.
And from experience, from a woman who loves her husband more than anything in the world;
that's why you get married and then she/he becomes perfect for you and you both become something you never could have imagined beforehand.
I'll go so far as to say, (and I know this from experience) even the personality type that you think suits you (I.e. outgoing, learner, book smart, street smart, etc.) can be exchanged when someone shares your values... marriage connects two people on a plane they can't imagine beforehand... open yourselves up to G-d's endless abilities and He will surely do the rest.
Really.. you city folk ought to explore the big beautiful world G-d created..
85- You are right. It is all about the mindset. Focus on the right thing, and things will work out..
1. The guys want skinny girls with good looks who can cook Shabbos just like momma does and will worship their husbands
2. The girls want TALL,good-looking guys who earn big bucks, go to movies, and learn night and day.
And you wonder why singles aren't getting married???????
Good job for posting your opinion and may you find your bashert asap
AIn Od Milvado!
Define skinny? if a guy isnt attracted to her physically its a issue, myself personally I am repulsed by overmakeupd women who look like ancient egypt. Cooking is last on my list.. and I do my own laundry tyvm
To be honest, I dont have a image of my future wife.. I just see her smiling, thats all that counts
shlicus does not always have to be away how about right here and take care of our children here so they dont end up with worse problems.
Married people disagree all the time, just like many parents have disagreements with their children. So, what, now you don't want to be a parent, because you "don't want to be like that" as a parent? It is HUMAN to disagree.
The biggest CHALLENGE and WORK (yes, marriage is WORK) about marriage is COMMUNICATION. Plus, you and your spouse can't just walk out/you are not going anywhere.
The two of you, together, made a SELFLESS commitment to each other, under the chupah, and for your FUTURE CHILDREN (G-d willing) to DO THE WORK - HASHEM's WORK. ...Like both spouses, under the chupah, coming together at Har Sinai and agreeing to uphold and take on Hashem's commandments.
...So spouses HAVE TO WORK/TALK things out, thank G-d.
...Even if it's "uncomfortable" - another contemporary society fantasy: everything has to be fast and convenient. And where did we get the idea that the "endeavor of life" is supposed to be free of effort and risk? THAT's NOT REAL. Unfortunately, we're applying these ideas to people... lo tov.
Don't be fooled by the fantasy of secular ways, which is AGAINST marriage. Yes, this alluring fantasy tells us "it's all about ME" and "how GREAT and beautiful I AM and can be"....as long I don't have a "ball-and-chain"/spouse. Oh, exception: secular society praises marriage when your spouse is a BEAUTY "ACCESSORY," like a belt or a nice pair of shoes - you know, "It's ok, because it LOOKS GOOD." ...A real shonda...
BELIEVE ME - I did not grow up frum, and, let me tell you, secular "living" is destructive to becoming and being healthily marriage. Rid yourself of all its influence. It really is idolatryland out there - not just of things, but also of SELF. Stop protecting your SELF and EGO
Marriage and communication are a slow process, unlike (yet, another obstacle to marriage) SCRIPTED media, such as tv and movies - where everything is fast, rehearsed, timed, and edited with precision FOR ENTERTAINMENT (that is, it's NOT REALITY)....there's no time in these presentations for resolving personal issues. Again, the primary purpose is to ENTERTAIN - NOT REALITY.
And don't even think, that MALE and FEMALE communication styles are even complementary. We're like NIGHT and DAY.
Please be careful that you don't judge the whole concept of marriage because of your experience being with a few married couples who were BEING REAL/GENUINE/AUTHENTIC in EXPRESSING THEIR FEELINGS (happy or not), whether verbally or with body language.
BELIEVE ME, when you get married, PLEASE G-D, SOON, that's when you will EXPRESS your feelings the MOST EVER in your LIFE... You HAVE TO in marriage...that's where the EMOTIONAL CONNECTION occurs. Also, when observing married couples, you don't know what's going on or being said when you're not there/"behind clothes doors." ...Even the spouses who APPEAR "normal" to you may be going through challenging times, and they're just concealing it for your sake, etc.
Overall, you can't put together the WHOLE picture of "marriage" with just PIECES that you've experienced from an outsiders point-of-view. You need to experience it FIRST HAND, G-d willing, soon.
Great points you make, my focus here on those issues is that many of us are diverse.
Maybe, maybe I am as above posters point out.. I want my wife to be like my mother.. BUT my mother is sweet, silly, deep, approachable, warm, loving, caring, generous, stern, emphasis on the inside.. and every other character trait I deem to be important.
So one goes out on a date.... attempting to get a glimpse of the person.. you want to know to really know what your dealing with.
Ive seen shiduchim questionnaires that made me cringe.. is it important how often I go to the mikva or if I write to the igros before A a minor issue or B only a BIG issue, or C I fax to ohel
When you come away from a date, feeling that #1 the girl does not understand or relate to you, you dont understand or relate to her... the shadchan should be pelted in public with rotten vegetables for even thinking of this shiduch..
So we eventually lose faith in both the shadchan and the opposite gender.
As for the above rubbish about our parents etc etc..
Please spare me.... I have no foolish romantic sentiments, but to imply that I should marry the first girl I dont have any serious issues with? no wonder the older generation in chabad is so bitter and quarrels so much
Shimshon, where are you when we need you????
IF you are looking to buy a house. It is a big decision, you can be spending hundreds of thousands of dollars. So make sure you get the right place, and are happy with it. However you have to be looking for a place to live, and then soon enough you will find a place where you can live. Whatever the place is like, you will be happy, and things will be worked out over time. There definitely is necessary upkeep etc. However, if you think I need a place with marble counters, and this type of chandelier, and this size backyard, and this many rooms, and this color. It is likely that it will take you ages to find it, if you end up finding it. Because what is the point? To get a house. Yes have certain requirements and be attracted to the house. But don't get caught up on that. If you are serious about getting the house, then it will happen. With the proper focus and mindset.
(the difference from Rabbis Friedman's point is that he was focusing on the idea that your spouse is destined for you..) But the point is there.
I was the first guy of my group of friends to start dating and the last one to get married. I dated more girls than all my friends (uncommon those days) and picked up a few tips along the way. Tips that I have gladly shared with the many friends and relatives, mostly boys but some girls too, who came to me for advise, both before and after I was married.
If I have learned anything from all that and more importantly from having met my beloved wife is that she was nothing like I had imagined my wife would be but she was still a perfect match for me. And it turns out that I am completely not the person I thought I was back then. Yet my marriage and household is every single bit what I had always envisioned and yearned for. That is because most of what was important to me in a wife whom I would build a yidishe chasidishe home with I would find out ahead of the dating. That list included among other things kindness, respect, tznius, chsidishkeit, intellect, chinuch. So when it came to the dating I would split the process in 2 parts, number one spend some time to check if I liked the way she looks (never asked for pictures before dating since in most cases does not do justice to the person), the way she talks, walks, thinks, sense of humor, interests, charisma, hobbies, passions etc. Then move on to part 2 which is verify all the important things I had asked about her before I met her. The first part is where she and I turned out to be different than I thought. And it really did not matter since, as it turns out, most of the time devoted to our relationship and family is spent on the second part. And because I realized that the longer we are together the more I like her in all the things in part 1.
I feel that singles today, influenced by the world out there, have a picture in their mind of how their spouse needs to be in all the social aspects. And as soon as the person in front of them does not fit that mold they can't look past that and call it off. Yet if they would be a little more flexible to allow themselves to like someone even if it is not what they have in their mind, perhaps they will be able to see that they really are alike in all the aspects that really matter. And then they surely will get love even all of the not so perfect social aspects of that person without ever compromising their happiness.
Stop being bitter all those who wrote nasty coments and are wrting out of frustration.
It may not be geniuos anything he wrote but calm down.
For all you "older" boys and gris.
AlI can say as a "typical " Chabad bochur meant to get married at 22 (lol) (most of my class was already 23 and marreid) who ended getting married at 36 is to keep up a good spirit and daven and beleive that the day will come and this is a time to grow and to see the silver linging in the challange you are facing and one thing I can say that with a frustrated attitude and being despondent you are definitely not giving yourself the chance to meet a happy wonderfull girl as your personality will come through when dating.
Stay strong. Its not easy and I am sure there are many other poeple in life (not marriage) who are facing huge challanges. You have the Kochos for it. Dig deep into all what you learned about challaging times and what you tought others and now use it for your own situation.
All the best
Since everybody wants to know how we feel about it I'll tell you my personal story.
I'm a bochur of 24 and I've seen 2 girls.
The first 1 was a nice girl but I saw that it wasn't a girl for me. She was from an important family and I always had the feeling like she was thinking "gd, if not for this crisis I would never date a guy like this". I can imagine what kind of comments I'll get for saying this but everything was right about this girl exept it just didn't "click" and that's why I let go.
The second girl was a girl that my parents didn't really want me to see because they didn't complete her checkup but because I was in town and wanted to go out they let me.
I didn't get a proper look at her when she got in the car. When we got to the hotel I thought I'd feel confident since I went out a few times with that other girl, but even without looking at her I felt I did every thing wrong. I got thru the evening and started feeling better even though we didn't agree on certain view points I felt like this a person I want to share my life with. To cut the long story short, I came home and my parents told me that they made some calls and found out that the parents were divorced and her mother remarried. Basically they don't think I need something like this, I'm young and there are plenty of girls.
Help!!
"Instead of worrying who you’re going to marry, we used to worry how we are going to marry."
Look at the marriages in the older generation of our community; there's a significantly smaller percentage of happy couples than today's younger generation. I wouldn't say they're "unhappy" couples, but they aren't the same caliber relationships as the younger ones. People no doubt will be offended that I put this statement into writing, but singles and their parents need to be aware, and RESPECT, that there is a different dating philosophy today, and the old one is no longer as applicable.
"A lot of people are honest enough to say, 'What would my friend say if I marry her?"
I have news for you buddy; that detail is quite an important in marriage. If you marry a certain girl in order to impress your friends, then YOU have issues; but if you marry a girl who you don't feel proud of in front of your friends, then your WILL HAVE issues.
"You'll never be ready enough for marriage."
True, but I really don't think it's a problem. People who don't "feel ready" hold off a year or two; I don't know anyone consciously planning a single life till thirty. It's really a halachic issue, not a dating one.
"I think these novel ideas and realizations have to be publicized and talked about."
I think everyone who's been dating has heard this sort of stuff more times than they cared to.
"There was an article on COLlive a couple of months ago about parents wanting to organize classes to teach singles in the Chabad community about relationships and marriage."
The redeeming thought of this whole article. Such classes are sorely needed, and it is a stain on our community that it still has not happened. As you probably tell from this comment thus far, they're only going to be beneficial if they're taught by the right person, with the appropriate message.
Now to be sure, the Talmud and Midrash extolls those who marry Lshaim Shomayim, and teaches they'll be blessed with children Talmidei Chachomim. The catch is, it only works if you're a "keili" for it. If you possess the Yiras Shomayim to make the most important decision in your life based on the best reasons, Ashrecha. But if you only KNOW it is a positive thing, but you DON'T FEEL it, then reality will pretty quickly wallop you on the back of your head.
Didn't know the word was such bad language for a Chassidishe girl anyways!
We are a generation of complicated souls. Some of it is our own doing, but some of it is the destiny thrust upon us. The knotty world of modern dating is partly a reflection of the complex nature of the modern soul.
The search for a soulmate will be made easier or harder depending on what type of soul you have. The master kabbalist Rabbi Isaac Luria taught that only new souls have an easy time finding their soulmate. When your soul comes to this world for the first time, you are fresh and unencumbered. Your vision is clear and your heart is open, and it is easy to recognise your soulmate.
But for those souls who have been here before, reincarnated souls, it doesn't come so easily. Reincarnated souls come to the world with the baggage of their previous life, and though every soul is born pure, a reincarnated soul is born complicated.
So while a new soul will meet and recognise their soulmate immediately, an old soul will have to work harder. They may have to meet many others before they meet the right one. They may need to do a lot of growing and inner development before being ready to recognise their soulmate. There is a lot of stuff to get over first - like unrealistic expectations, over-specific requirements, exaggerated self-images, superficial hang-ups and the residue of relationships of the past. And even when soulmates do find each other, they will have to work hard to make things work.
The kabbalists declared that almost all souls these days have been here before. Very few new souls are coming down. So we can expect the search for soulmates to be more challenging now than ever. Our souls are carrying baggage - some we have inherited and some our own doing - and only by working through those layers do we remove the barriers that stand between our soul and our soulmate.
The best way to bring about meeting your soulmate is to be more in touch with your own soul. When your soul is pulsating with inspiration and clarity, when you are spiritually grounded and bringing goodness to your surroundings, then you are most prone to meeting your soulmate. It may take some effort, but that is your destiny.
( Small tip--Get comfortable with the word "dated" and you'll be more comfortable with the actual date.)
what if a girl you went out with recognizes herself as the one you described here? its a bit embarrassing for her.
then i ask myself i see so many girls that are looking to get married are there also a lot of guy that need to get marrie??
And don't know if its my place really to teach..
So many wise people are disrespected, teachers, mechanchim, mashpiim. I'm not yet married.
Thank you though
Its just easier to be a good girl than to be a good guy, both because of their different natures (girls are GENERALY more drawn to spirituality, and more obedient / interested in doing the 'right' thing), and because of what is expected of them (the boys have to do more... learn all day etc)
NOT that i'm saying its easy to be a good girl...
and people shouldnt just get married before they know clearly its a good (compatible) match.
good in terms of:
Does He/She have the right values?
Does He/She have good midos?
Do i feel an attraction drawn to this person
(note: it dosent say, infatuated, a-crush...)
simply a anticipation of the heart toward the other,
if the fundemental ingrediants are present,
the marriege is inclined to blossom & deepen m'chayil el choyil,
if Ch"v
the Main ingredients are not the Deciding-Focus
if your lacking Humility (yiras shomayim) to heaven
if your lacking Kindness (Middos)
if your lacking Attraction (Hamshachat halev) of the heart to one another....
those who resist new ideas from mentors etc live below their full potential...
eiehu chacham halomeid m'kol adom
....and I looked for the IMPORTANT things - Midos -Yiras Shomayim...15 plus years later, I can say - that is the ONLY way to go.
I did not get married because I liked his style (hated his glasses) or his looks, ( he was ok, cute - but no stud), or was cool etc - he was just a hardworking, intelligent, chassidishe bochur that was aidel and nice.
And 15 plus years later, I can say - we are the best of friends, finish each others sentences, respect each other, and are truly in love.
Manis is on the money. Love comes from marriage, not before marriage - before marriage it is about what is in it for ME, what is good for ME.
After marriage, you learn to make it a WE.
Lust fades, love stays. Loves comes after because of what you do for each other. With every kind act, you build a brick of love. Putting your needs aside for the other, builds a brick of love. Giving of yourself, even when you are not in the mood, buiilds a brick of love.
And then, with time, brick by brick, you have a house of love and happiness, a house where Hashem feels comfortable to reside.
So, in short Manis is right on. And to all you prospective suitors out there; Eizeh Hoo Chachom, Halomed Mikol Adom.
Dont dismiss something because it does not reflect your worldview. The information gained may build your world.
Men should be looking first for good mother for his children. After that he should care about looks, personality, etc, etc.
Another thing to keep in mind, if you find that you still think and feel the same way you did at the time of your bar or bat mitzvah, your not ready to get married.
Being married makess you become ONE which includes LOVE and being best FRIENDS. What kind of marriage is it if there is no love or friendship, just ONENESS. Boruch Hashem I am ONE with my husband, AND have true LOVE & FREINDSHIP as well. I hope everyone else should be blessed with the same. Don't understand his point at all, sounds very strange to me.