Aug 22, 2010
Who Is He Really Marrying
Shidduchim SOS: My father wants this bochur, my mother wants that family. And the shadchan thinks I'm the one who is picky.
By anonymous
My friend called me. I couldn’t miss the frustration in her voice. Her parents were pressuring her to drop the person she barely began dating. Why? Ummm, they weren’t crazy about him.
I’m giving someone a lift home. My passenger’s phone rings and he almost shouts, “I’m telling you, he comes from a good family. She’s marrying him—not you!"
These two incidents within a week and my suspicions based on personal experience are confirmed. Well-meaning parents are making shidduchim and marriage more difficult for their children.
You see, it all starts with parental expectations and social pressures. Mother wants a handsome son-in-law to proudly present to the Bubbies. Father wants an Ohelei Torah type of bachur because it’s the wavelength he’s comfortable with. Mother would be so embarrassed if the mechutanim family is on the “nebach” side. Father wants a well-established family, because why settle for less?
And then, the shadchan wonders why I’m picky.
No, you mean my parents.
All I asked for was a goodhearted, mentslich, mekushar boy, and I tossed in some adjectives for personality type.
With each suggestion, my parents found something “not so shayach for our daughter.” I tried explaining that I’m totally cool with it and wouldn’t mind meeting the boy after checking out the references.
My parents’ constant response: “No, not him. We’re not chas v’shalom desperate! Hashem will send your bashert who we’ll all be happy with.”
Wait, you can’t be serious. What happened to all the nice talk about wanting ME to be happily married? And what about that no one is perfect but Hashem? Oh, and remember how you explained that it’s the boy’s middos tovos that are priority?
Parents--- it is time to stop lamenting how “Uch ‘n Vey, there’s such a shidduch crisis.”
It’s time for parents to re-evalutate. Are you making it harder for your child’s bashert to reach him/her? Are you putting up meaningless barriers based on the things YOU want for your child?
Yes, we absolutely know you want the best for us. But is the best based on your perception and desires? Will the looks, family status, background, or whatever else you want in your son/daughter-in-law really count to making this the spouse YOUR CHILD will be happy living with till 120?
To all the shadchanim out there, please do us a favor and be persistent. Names are not disposable. If a parent tosses a suggestion into the garbage heap and you feel there’s real potential, please ask to see if the CHILD agrees with the decision. After all, aren’t we big enough to get married?
Oh, and maybe some community leaders out there could arrange some inspirational lectures for our parents and shadchanim. I have this big gut feeling that if parents and matchmakers are reminded about priorities and the right way to handle shidduchim, a lot more people would be heading under the Chuppah.
I know a few older singles whose pained parents regret “missed opportunities.” If only they were more flexible a few years back…
Dear Ma and Ta, I do not want that to be us.
why? give it a chance. There was so much in common. A lot of potential.
Parents have to let their children go out as long as the shidduch looks good and the children are interested. Yes, maybe the parents want something "better", but how can someone evaluate a potential match without even meeting the person, or allowing their child to go out?? so many good shidduchim are being tossed out without proper reasons and parents are crying that their children are still sitting unmarried....
and say after extensive research we decided against it!
Finally an article on this topic worth reading. As a father of marriagable age children, I will rethink how I am approaching this subject.
Hatzlocho to you. May Hashem Open the way for you in this Choidesh Elul.
Ceseeva vachaseema Toiva!
Boruch Hashem that phase in my life passed!
It is a problem however when parents don't know who their children are or rather don't WANT to know and hold out for type of boy or girl that truly will be incompatible wih their child. Parents must learn to accept their child for who they are. The "product" at age 21 is not going to change much no matter how much wishful parents have.
I know I know, such "activist" leaders are far and few in between.
Try Rabbi Kantor (snr) at sim.shalom.uveracha@gmail.com. He has guts and is very (quietly) successful in such domestic issues. He is also someone most people (parents) can look up to.
I am from a Bal Teshuuva family and I can tell you that my family is a lot more functional and normal than most geje families.
We did not have fancy requirements; first and foremost: a good hearted kind person. You never go wrong with that.
We rarely said no to a shidduch, only "not at this stage" - because who knows? With time maybe this will be the best. On the other hand we were clear not to mislead anyone. If it was a remote possibility we would say so.
It is wrong (IMHO) for the kids to do the deciding - you are deciding in der velt arain with imaginary perspectives. On the other hand, when parents are using imaginary perspectives and are clueless about where their kids are at, then it is a problem.
I like the idea submitted by "A Solution." If your parents need a wake-up (or a shake-up) be bold, get someone to talk sense to them. But you need to be bold to (a) face yourself realisticaslly (Hey, maybe your parents know you better than you know yourself - a good mashpiya or rov should detect that)) (b) Your parents may resent the involvement of a 3rd party - so be sure to try all means of direct dialogue first..
if the geje's get snotty, then their yiches isn't worth a dime. I know geje families who are judgmental status seekers. Hardly what a BT family is looking for - a BT family wants real emes. Hate to say it - not many geje families are really emes these days. it is the BT families who are. Yes, i mean what i say.
Sorry but there is no comparison between marrying out of the faith, which is a Halachic prohibition, and marring a BT, which is perfectly Halachcially permissible.
So you don't want to marry from a BT family, that is OK. Just don't cloak it in righteousness. Be honest. Say you are a bigot, because that is what you are.
Do us a favor, keep inbreeding.... would love to see how your kids turn out....
Good riddance!
responsible...
emesdik
hiskashrus to the Rebbe - this is something the Geje's do have more than BT's sometimes. This is something than runs deep in the veins of a person - and that sort of thing does get passed down.
i have to admit it.
sad but true.
However, if a child really like a certain shidduch and the parent wishes to break it up because the person is not what they imagined for their child, or their motivations are not really pure, then that could be problematic. Hashem should help parents and children to work harmoniously together and to find their children's basherts easily and in a good timing.
i guess this isnt such a new problem
In the 60's when a prominent Lub Rabbi from NJ (and Shliach) married 2 of his kids to BT families the Rebbe (our Rebbe, the boss and decider on how we shoyuld act) gave him a personal Yasher Koach.
yashar koach
explain please!
One of my parents came of the boat from Russia, and the other was a traditional NY Jew.
Remember a child of BT that has grown up in CH is FFB.
There is a huge cultural divide with the two types of familys.
stereotyping.
A FFB that grows up in a BT home, has parents that WANT to be frum and chasidish, and struggle to get the hebrew right.
The FFB that grow up in FFB homes live with parents that HAVE to be frum, and struggle to have any real meaning in yiddishkait
both children face an uphill battle to integrate yidishkait in there lives in a healthy way.
the FFB ben BT is embarrassed of the bad skills and frumkait of the parents.
The FFB ben FFB sees only an empty shell of ritual, with politics and machlokes ruling the day.
The trick is to find a boy/girl that has come to be comfortable with who they are, chasidish , frum , Balebatish, modern, or even non observant r'l
then the two young ppl can grow their own home as they go.
When I have a suggestion for someone I just call them straight up, it's much easier to deal directly with the person, less confusion and they really know best.
I'm a single girl. My parents refused to allow me to meet a boy whose family happened to live in the same community as ours. They told me straight out that they wouldn't be caught dead in the same picture as that family. The family was fine in my eyes. The parents were a bit interesting. But they were very kind and sincere people. Even more, the boy had an excellent reputation.
I wish they would have read this article then (5 yrs ago). I may have actually gotten married.
You are totally right, and that is why the children, and specially the daughters need to be more assertive and not let your over protective mother take care of things for you.
No matter how many "inspirational leaders" talk to your parents, your mother will never get it
IT IS THE DAUGHTERS THAT NEED TO MAKE THEM UNDERSTAND.
"Hate to say it - not many geje families are really emes these days. it is the BT families who are"
Hello! Are you the official emes expert in town?????????
You mothers expect your sons to be so "CHASSIDISH", and then you act so shallow and only care about looks.
As a B.T. who grew up in a very affluent area,these people sound more shallow then a lot of NOT FRUM people I knew and know. Your priorities are messed up and therefore so will your perfect sons be! Rabbi Friedman said there is a problem today with the Bochurim, that Chassidus is not penetrating them. I think that problem exists with others as well!
YOU PARENTS OUT THERE WITH KIDS ON LINE: BACK OFF! What are you doing to your children? How can you do this to them? Sons & daughters of 33, 34 living at home, seeing their friends preparing to make Bar Mitzvas & they are the object of pity. Why do you do this? Are you so hateful & controlling?
Children: find your own Shidduchim. Contact the shadchans & tell them to leave mommy & tatty out of it. Don't worry about them handing over wads of cash for a fancy vort. I & my friends will give you a vort to remember, as beautiful as anyone's. Be pro-active & FIND YOUR BASHERT!
Why then would you want them to decide for themselves on such a critical issue such as the person to marry for life - without any real life and marital experience???
The son and daughter should be consulted but the parents must ultimately give their approval and advice.
PLEASE EXPLAIN: WHAT DO SHLUCHIM DO???? its thanks to them that i am a frum girl today for 3 yrs BARUCH HASHEM! ! also, do u know who the Rebbe is?
good luck everyone.
One point i might add though, it's extremely frustrating when people don't get back to you at all. They might think it's better to egnore you then to say "no" but let me tell you, hearing no is much better than not hearing anything at all. It's only the right thing to do.... Why keep someone waiting?
I can't stand when the simcha is all about the parents and grandparents and not about the Chosson and Kallah THEMSELVES. If it's all about the ancestors, why davka THAT grandson and THAT granddaughter, it could have been any of them..
Just to put this out there, while I don't really like the whole FFB vs BT thing, I'd like to hear some comments on the following: I was raised frum by my mother and stepfather, but my father is not frum and my stepmother is not Jewish. I myself am frum. How would the Crown Heights shiduch scene (thank G-d I do not live there) take to someone like me (hypothetically, just based on that information), would I be fitting for their daughters?
Oh, and while we're on the topic of Gezhe, for all you girls out there, excuse me, PARENTS of girls out there, I know this great guy named Yishmael whose dad is the biggest Tzaddik in the world. He's also got a nephew named Eisav who mamish comes from the most beautiful family. However, I caution any guys from dating this chick called Rivka, she's got a dad and bro who are just up to no good...
I AM A MOTHER OF CHILDREN OF AGE.. MY ADVICE, BE SENSIBLE AND DISCRETION IS ADVISABLE. NO QUESTION EVERY PARENTS WANTS WHAT IS BEST FOR THEIR CHILD. DIFFERENT STROKES FOR DIFFERENT FOLKS.
HAVE A NICE DAY!
No Pictures before the first date. When you get to know someone in person, what's inside becomes more important. A beautiful/handsome person on the outside (but not on the inside) won't look so beautiful/handsome anymore. But if you reject someone based on a picture, you may have missed out on meeting someone really special.
At last, you are not the one who's marring him/her.
With the kind of communication between her parents and her, doens't seem likely this would go down to well with them...
Let alone the rest of the shidduch community (other parents)....
Hasn't a BT that stuck around in ch and raised a family and sent their children to the chabad system "proven " he /she is just as good as the frum from birth- you know the ones that are all frying out now????
Even BTs can find out they are gezhe!
What does the shidduch world do with that kind of situation? If it's a BT, does it get ignored? Or what?
My spouse recently found out their family tree includes someone whose commentary is found in every chumash!
Does that mean we're gezhe now? (I bet not!)
dont let it slip away
a mashpia is nice but if not, try to get a mutual friend to match the both of you
I did not mean to say that family is irrelevant. Family is extremely important. But ultimately they should not be the ones DECIDING who their children marry. Suggestions, advice and approvals are fine, but the final decision lies with the boy and girl themselves. If I were to be influenced by my family-- which, unfortunately is rife with intermarriage-- whom to marry, I wouldn't be in a good place at all! Rashi says on the above-mentioned posuk quoting the medrash- "Mikan she-ein masi-in es ha'isha elah midatoh." The marriage has to go ahead with HER knowledge and consent. If the parents think it's a great shiduch, but the boy or girl don't think so, then their opinion is the deciding factor. Again, as far as advice goes, the parents have every right to contribute their opinions, but not to DECIDE for their children.
As to the "chick" comment, I apologize if I offended the honor of Rivka imeinu by referring to her that way. The point I was trying to make is that it doesn't matter what type of family you are from, there are always exceptions. If we're not careful, and we only look at the family and not the individual, we could end up marrying the Yishmaels and the Eisavs to the wrong people based on their lineage, and ignoring the Rivka's and Rus' because of theirs.
Thus, your assertion that ''like'' married ''like'' really has nothing to do with the post. I am still trying to figure out your point. You have just stated facts without mentioning how you are using them. Please enlighten me.
And on the contrary, from that which we say that previous generations where more spiritually inclined (ruach hakodesh as you put it), wouldn't you say that therefore in present generations we can not do as they did due to our lack of spiritual sensitivity?
What you said is true but please remember the Chasidishe Yidden who masered others and sent them to the Gulag, to save their loved one's. Until today there are 'Gezehe' families which reject such families out of hand.
The ONLY standard for shidduchim that should exist in Lubavitch today, is not how is was done in Nevel. but stricly by the standards the Rebbe approved of and wanted. These same "big Chassidim" who speak of Hiskashrus to the Rebbe are the worst violators of the Rebbe's standard for shidduchim.
It is these Gezhe people who are missing out on some of the highest quality boys and girls, possibly 75% of the "market", only because they don't "know" who family is. Its their loss, not ours. Its pure snobbery at best, ignorance at worst, and exactly NOT what the Rebbe wanted.
Yes many BT's and BT families have alot more going for it than many Gezhe families. More love, more functionality, better values, healthier children, and closer sibling relationships. Being frum from birth is all an FFB family has over a BT family. Other than that, its pure ignorance to think, BT families are lacking anything that any FFB family may not. And yes marraiges of freie yidden can be just as good and strong as any frum marraige, visa vie love, loyalty, sacrifice, values, etc.
The sad part is, is that many BTs actually have bought into the propoganda handed them by their "teachers". That is that their families are inferior to FFB families. That because their families are not frum, they are lacking in everything else. Enough of this self deprecating attitude! The FFB families have succeeded in putting the BTs exactly where they want them, at the bottom of the heap. I would venture to say, that many BTs, having known then maybe 30-40 years ago, what they know now, having faced this discrimination, primarily within the shidduch system, would not have come into Lubavitch had they known they would have to face this attitude of separatism. They were always taught that all Jews are equal. Now they know that doesn't include the bank accounts or the Chuppa.
Thanks for the compliment. Who am I? Oh, just a concerned citizen... ;-)
And, again, then what kind of mixed message are we imparting to our children?
I want to add that also
children that comes from broken families and gerim and children of gerim are unfortunately not even given a chance neither. And unfortunately neither the lady that wrote the original "complain" about her parents deciding for her, neither other of the young boys and girls in the shidducihm scenario, will have the courage to really break with the situation, because they are children of FFBs or "old" BTs and that, at the end of the day, they know that if they want to be considered for a "respectable" (meaning, from a good establised family) shidduch they have to do it in the most classic way possible: Through mom and dad.
Hypocrites those they complain about "mom and dad" trying to marry off their children, but if someone would suggest directly to the boy or to the girl: a mentsch, good midos counterpart and such suggestion is a of any of the types (BT, broken family, geirim, etc), they also wouldn't accept it.
Over many years we have talked to him and he has been a fountain of wisdom and a good listner. Ksiva VChasomah tova
I DO KNOW GESHE PEOPLE, AS WELL AS GESHE OR NOT SHADCHANIM WHO DO NOT SHARE THE SAME VIEWS AS THE ABOVE MENTIONED PEOPLE & SHADCHAN even though they do live in reality & are aware that likes marry like. simply put they are bigger people( and perhaps more intelligent) then the ones who have, rushed narrow views.
and rashi saids : Mikan sheamischaten beicha ichal beacheo
please someone explain the "unacceptedness" about a BAAL TESHUVA...he/she cannot be accepted into a geshe family because he/she is a BAAL TESHUVA and has an unfamilier last name and does not ring a bell in the 'lubav family"? what is THAT!??!?! anybody know what the REBBE said about BAAL TESHUVA'S? some insight would be extremely appreciated...
I chose to marry someone from a bt family, because of my husbands special qualities.
I am aware that my children are no longer considerd geshe and geshe familys will possibly not want to marry them because of their bt family status. And i understand why.
anyway, loosely translated/background:
Aharon HaKohen married Elisheva, the daughter of Aminodov, and the SISTER of Nachshon (yes, the one who jumped into the yam suf....)
Rashi says on this - from here we learn that one who marries a woman should inquire about her brothers.
i needed to hear that
i sensed there was something there
appreciated it
but didnt quite understand why
makes sense
thanks so much for commenting
may your children be so special that they find they best beshert (omain).
The point is not that geshe is not special, it is.The point is that each individual should be judged based on their own value, just like you did with your husband. An individual who comes from a geshe family, yet has not such great personal qualities , his/her geshe alone is not worth much since it did not affect him/her on a personal level. Only when an individual emulates, or at least tries to emulate his/her grandparents or greatgrandparents then his/her geshe is worth the pride.Likewise a person can come from a rotten or simple background, yet he/she may actually be a priceless diamond.( I think we all know somone like that) Each person should be judged by who they are. And even though I can understand why a family would want to choose a family that is similar to them, I don't really understand why it should be THAT segregated.
Thank you
You've made a very good point. Obviously, it is important to investigate the family of a prospective shidduch, because, understandably, they have a profound impact and influence on a person. It is interesting though, that Rashi there (Shmos 6:23) uses the expression "livdok b'acheha" which means to investigate the brothers. That is what should be done. The details of the person's family should be INVESTIGATED open-mindedly and objectively, and conclusions should be drawn only after gathering meaningful information. What seems to be the problem that's being discussed here, is that parents are writing people off straight away without any investigations, just based on the fact they fit a certain social description.
I think if people would adopt a more open-minded approach (which in truth is the Torah's approach), we would all be better off, and would discover more of the "Shoshana bein hachochim" attributes which Rivka Imeinu personified.
and it needs to be discussed openly
and if you cant take the discussion
then go put your head back in your bucket of sand!
One way the girls of Beis Rivka have been presented with these role models, is that every year (in certain grades), each girl in the class has to pick a member of their family and report on all of the mesiras nefesh he/she showed for Yiddishkeit during their lifetime.
How do you think the Beis Rivka girls feel, who are daughters/granddaughters of geirim and BTs, when this assignment is given. It is institutionalized humiliation!
I think it would be far more valuable to include the stories of our inspiring Chabad forebears throughout the year's school learning WITHOUT setting up a situation that creates a humiliatingly clear divide between who is a "somebody" and who is a "nobody".
Beis Rivka, I respectfully suggest the following change: Rather than tell all of these stories (of mesiras nefesh) all at once -- during the previously described annual assignment -- it may be better for all the girls to have one or two of these individuals taught about each week, This would spread and prolong the inspiration to last throughout the school year. And it would spare about half of the girls in Crown Heights the anguish of that insensitive annual assignment.
In addition, maybe one of the two stories each week could be about the mesiras nefesh shown by a gair, or by a BT -- not to demean the gezhe in any way, but to ALSO inspire our future shluchas with even greater respect for the not-yet-frum.
Why do bts feel that when they arent chosen as a geshe's spouse, they are looked down upon?!
Their sacrifice and acheivement truly is remarkable. but, is is very fair and normal for geshe to look for the same quality in their spouses family. There are lots of special traits out there, everyone is entitled to choose the traits that they value most.
That does not put your acheivement down ib any way. If you are a bt and your children were raised frum, would you want your child to marry someone who just became a bt himself, as remarkable as it truly is?!
To all worried singles out there, don't give up hope.
The same G-d who split the Yam Suf can find you a match.
Miracles do happen. I've been priviledged to see it myself.
However, that does not mean that we should sit on the couch with our feet on the ottoman and Mr/Mrs perfect (bashert) will come knocking on the door.
Parents cannot keep throwing out suggestions, since they don't "fit" their own criteria.
It is a) their child who needs to live with their spouse until 120. and b) If their child is ready to get married, then maybe they can have some input into deciding if they would like to go out on this date too?
' target='_blank'>http://www.chabad.org/parshah/article_cdo/aid/1329/jewish/Sin-and-Sanctity.htm. as well as:
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/145512/jewish/Part-II.htm
&
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/137090/jewish/Tzaddik-The-Baal-Teshuvah.htm.
Hope this helps ;-) As we are in the month of Elul, it is important for us to remember that we are all Baal Teshuva's, as we all sin(most of us) and return again!
Just try this: go on to chabad. org and search the mamar "Borei Niv Sifasayim" and that should give you a start.
Good luck!!
shabbat shalom!!
But what about a so called ashekenaz marrying a so called sepharad knoing that they both come from normal lubavitch families??!!
I am trying to convince my parents that there is nothinfg wrong but i cant...
Anyone can help me
Thanks
comment #29 is probably one of best and most practical comments I've seen
1st it's written by someone with experience - a parent who married off all of his/her children
2nd it gives a practical balanced response to the issue at hand without losing the "bird in the hand", the shiduch system that brought us to where we are today
It is a great response since it would work equally well if the article writer, who makes a good point, is accurate about her issues or is miss-guided and immature (I'm not disagreeing with the writer, but the issues as written can be either true or, and often are, at least partially, imagined)
axing the shiduch research system will remove out greatest filter. status quo has it's problems, comment #29's experienced idea: keep your parents involved but if you suspect they have intentions other than your best interest, first try direct communication and if it doesn't work have someone they respect talk to them.
Thank you!!
you cant make this diference ALL JEWISH HAVE A NESHAMA AND CAN BE A GOOD FRUM PERSON with the time,so its scandalous to read this about a jewish he supposed to be so religious person or whatever you sayed that you are!!!!
you have to understand all the other jewish too ,not only your uncommunicative world
Jess
The pasuk says look at their brother--not their father. Look at how the kids were raised and if they're chassidishe kids--not at whether the great-grandfather pished in nevel.
115:
Every single person who is Jewish today's ancestors were moiser nefesh for yiddishkeit. Every single Jew today went through pogroms, holocausts, expulsions vechulu. Just because you were lucky enough to know--for no zchus of your own--that your family came from Nevel or Lubavitch or wherever--why does that make you or your ancetors better then mine? I know my great-grandparents were chassidim in Russia but that's all I know about them. Does that mean that I'm less then you? That they weren't moiser nefesh for yiddishkeit?
Stop looking at chitzonius and let Chassidus penetrate you. If you look at somebody's last name and that's all that matters to you--then you've missed the point of Yiddishkeit and completely missed the point in everything that the Rebbe said.
But go on, anyone who's interested can go marry some gezhe bochur who secretly touches his beard and does who knows what, because if that's all that matters to you--that your kids will marry somebody gezhe, then go send your kids off to marry some half frei gezhe kid from Crown Heights.