Aug 22, 2010
Who Is He Really Marrying

Shidduchim SOS: My father wants this bochur, my mother wants that family. And the shadchan thinks I'm the one who is picky.

By anonymous

My friend called me. I couldn’t miss the frustration in her voice. Her parents were pressuring her to drop the person she barely began dating. Why? Ummm, they weren’t crazy about him.

I’m giving someone a lift home. My passenger’s phone rings and he almost shouts, “I’m telling you, he comes from a good family. She’s marrying him—not you!"

These two incidents within a week and my suspicions based on personal experience are confirmed. Well-meaning parents are making shidduchim and marriage more difficult for their children.

You see, it all starts with parental expectations and social pressures. Mother wants a handsome son-in-law to proudly present to the Bubbies. Father wants an Ohelei Torah type of bachur because it’s the wavelength he’s comfortable with. Mother would be so embarrassed if the mechutanim family is on the “nebach” side. Father wants a well-established family, because why settle for less?

And then, the shadchan wonders why I’m picky.

No, you mean my parents.

All I asked for was a goodhearted, mentslich, mekushar boy, and I tossed in some adjectives for personality type.

With each suggestion, my parents found something “not so shayach for our daughter.” I tried explaining that I’m totally cool with it and wouldn’t mind meeting the boy after checking out the references.

My parents’ constant response: “No, not him. We’re not chas v’shalom desperate! Hashem will send your bashert who we’ll all be happy with.”

Wait, you can’t be serious. What happened to all the nice talk about wanting ME to be happily married? And what about that no one is perfect but Hashem? Oh, and remember how you explained that it’s the boy’s middos tovos that are priority?

Parents--- it is time to stop lamenting how “Uch ‘n Vey, there’s such a shidduch crisis.”

It’s time for parents to re-evalutate. Are you making it harder for your child’s bashert to reach him/her? Are you putting up meaningless barriers based on the things YOU want for your child?

Yes, we absolutely know you want the best for us. But is the best based on your perception and desires? Will the looks, family status, background, or whatever else you want in your son/daughter-in-law really count to making this the spouse YOUR CHILD will be happy living with till 120?

To all the shadchanim out there, please do us a favor and be persistent. Names are not disposable. If a parent tosses a suggestion into the garbage heap and you feel there’s real potential, please ask to see if the CHILD agrees with the decision. After all, aren’t we big enough to get married?

Oh, and maybe some community leaders out there could arrange some inspirational lectures for our parents and shadchanim. I have this big gut feeling that if parents and matchmakers are reminded about priorities and the right way to handle shidduchim, a lot more people would be heading under the Chuppah.

I know a few older singles whose pained parents regret “missed opportunities.” If only they were more flexible a few years back…

Dear Ma and Ta, I do not want that to be us.

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Opinions and Comments
1
VERY true! and i'm not even up to there YET!
Parents need to stop taking as much charge as they are now, and let the boy/girl make the decisions Of course Parents, they no doubt will want to you help!
(8/22/2010 12:39:33 PM)
2
good point!
this is so true. A shidduch just came up for someone I know and it looked really promising and then at the last minute the parents of the boy backed down without citing any reason, just saying it is not shayach.....
why? give it a chance. There was so much in common. A lot of potential.
Parents have to let their children go out as long as the shidduch looks good and the children are interested. Yes, maybe the parents want something "better", but how can someone evaluate a potential match without even meeting the person, or allowing their child to go out?? so many good shidduchim are being tossed out without proper reasons and parents are crying that their children are still sitting unmarried....
(8/22/2010 12:44:40 PM)
3
Too True
Same goes to the parents who don't want their children marrying children of BT's. Most of my classmates were children of BT's, that's our norm, we're comfortable with it.
(8/22/2010 12:46:43 PM)
4
Its so True
Some of the MOTHERS today go so far as meeting the girl 1st, before her son goes out.
(8/22/2010 12:56:34 PM)
5
I hate when they get back to u

and say after extensive research we decided against it!
(8/22/2010 1:09:13 PM)
6
My goodness I had the same thing
They check, and check for weeks and finally get back to u and say its not for my son, do the basic searching and for youre son's sake let him have some say in the matter too
(8/22/2010 1:12:01 PM)
7
So True!
(8/22/2010 1:12:23 PM)
8
glad we're not gezhe or rich
We don;t have those 'musts' on our lists. We don't feel snubbed. We;re looking for life goals/midos/similar hashkafas. BTW, plenty of kids have tossed aside names that parents have researched, so It's not only the parents. Net/net, when a shidduch is meant to be, the Aibeshter can move any obstacle, and it will be.
(8/22/2010 1:13:47 PM)
9
one
WHOA!!!!!!!!
(8/22/2010 1:14:37 PM)
10
Mothers you really should read this article well!
I am a mother too, and believe me I check out the girls?boys my kids go out with but I always get back to the person within a few days that they called me whether Im interested or not it should'n't take longer, its just not mentslich
(8/22/2010 1:19:00 PM)
11
Hmm
was this article really writen by a single? Or some well meaning Shadchan? bec most single as well as older single families are really not that extreame. sorry.
(8/22/2010 1:24:37 PM)
12
Well Well Well
BH

Finally an article on this topic worth reading. As a father of marriagable age children, I will rethink how I am approaching this subject.

Hatzlocho to you. May Hashem Open the way for you in this Choidesh Elul.

Ceseeva vachaseema Toiva!
(8/22/2010 1:27:06 PM)
13
someone who has made shidduchim
sad but really really true PARENTS STOP RUINING IT FOR YOUR CHILDREN listen to what they want you had your turn to choose its their turn now
(8/22/2010 1:35:14 PM)
14
May I suggest
that many of the underlying problems mentioned in this article are also contributing to the high drop out rate? When our children see that we are hipocrits -- that our actions don't reflect our speech -- they lose faith in the "system." When they realize what really makes us tick, they decide that they don't want to have anything to do with it.
(8/22/2010 1:44:27 PM)
15
Well Said!
Very Very Well Said! BTW i know somebody if your interested.
(8/22/2010 1:45:00 PM)
16
mom
right on the nose
(8/22/2010 1:47:01 PM)
17
not yet married Bochur
yup this is unfortunately true!!! I have witnessed it myself

Boruch Hashem that phase in my life passed!
(8/22/2010 1:47:30 PM)
18
Know your Child!
It is not a problem for parents to care about what is best for their children, I think parents must be involved to protect their children from otherwise emotionally clouded and sometimes immature mistakes.

It is a problem however when parents don't know who their children are or rather don't WANT to know and hold out for type of boy or girl that truly will be incompatible wih their child. Parents must learn to accept their child for who they are. The "product" at age 21 is not going to change much no matter how much wishful parents have.
(8/22/2010 1:50:10 PM)
19
ungrateful much?
do you know how lucky you are to have parents who care enough about you to help you pick a suitable shidduch?? for us baal tshuva's out there, we are alone. so relax a little, your parents might know what they are talking about!!! and be thankful that they love and care about you!!!
(8/22/2010 1:55:05 PM)
20
Dear Anonymous
Looks do count, and of course where the family comes from. I wouldn't want to marry a bal teshuva family. You have to stick to your own kind. I mean, you wouldn't marry out of the faith would you?
(8/22/2010 2:06:16 PM)
21
A solution
Speak to a repectable (repected) rav or mashpia and have them speak to your parents.

I know I know, such "activist" leaders are far and few in between.
Try Rabbi Kantor (snr) at sim.shalom.uveracha@gmail.com. He has guts and is very (quietly) successful in such domestic issues. He is also someone most people (parents) can look up to.
(8/22/2010 2:06:53 PM)
22
goooooo!!!!! anonymous
well writen thx alot
(8/22/2010 2:07:01 PM)
23
anonymous
This is a very important article and as a shadchan I have seen this happen all the time. I wish that parents wouldn't be so inflexible about things that aren't really so important in the long run.
(8/22/2010 2:10:16 PM)
24
well done !!!!!
i agree with every single word!!!!!
(8/22/2010 2:10:28 PM)
25
Rabbi Yosef Goldman
Gezhe is the only way to go. If you want your kids to have a future and some meaning in life. The only thing that matters is that our zaydes 'hut gepished in nevel'. There's no two ways about it. I hope people realize that. It's explicitly stated in Gemara, invei hagefen b'invei hagefen. Yes there is a point to give someone a chance. But their yichus is all that matters. Go Gezhe!
(8/22/2010 2:26:26 PM)
26
Rabbi Meir
It is about time people realized this. It's only right to look at people with a good eye. Barring you make sure they have the proper yichus.
(8/22/2010 2:28:12 PM)
27
Not always the case
But this is very often the problem and I think it is very important that if the parents would be a bit easier on prospective shiduchim it would take care of some of the problem.
(8/22/2010 2:29:21 PM)
28
#20
How can you say such a thing?????!!!
I am from a Bal Teshuuva family and I can tell you that my family is a lot more functional and normal than most geje families.
(8/22/2010 2:46:11 PM)
29
Empty Nester
BH all children married. Most with the 1st shidduch they met. But that was because we knew our children well, our children had trust in us, so when they met someone they knew it was "pre-certified".
We did not have fancy requirements; first and foremost: a good hearted kind person. You never go wrong with that.

We rarely said no to a shidduch, only "not at this stage" - because who knows? With time maybe this will be the best. On the other hand we were clear not to mislead anyone. If it was a remote possibility we would say so.

It is wrong (IMHO) for the kids to do the deciding - you are deciding in der velt arain with imaginary perspectives. On the other hand, when parents are using imaginary perspectives and are clueless about where their kids are at, then it is a problem.
I like the idea submitted by "A Solution." If your parents need a wake-up (or a shake-up) be bold, get someone to talk sense to them. But you need to be bold to (a) face yourself realisticaslly (Hey, maybe your parents know you better than you know yourself - a good mashpiya or rov should detect that)) (b) Your parents may resent the involvement of a 3rd party - so be sure to try all means of direct dialogue first..
(8/22/2010 2:46:11 PM)
30
please
nobdy respond to number 25 dont get heated up its a bored teenager like myself trying to add some spice into the conversation
(8/22/2010 2:48:59 PM)
31
to # 20
This is truly disgusting! I was SHOCKED to read your comment! I didnt know that BT and gezhe have a different faith!
(8/22/2010 2:51:04 PM)
32
attn: number20
bts r very much our own kind
(8/22/2010 2:56:50 PM)
33
To 20 and 25 (Rabbi Yosef Goldman) and gasha nut heads
Stop thinking so highly of yourselves. what so the girl should wait for that gasha guy who is sitting on his back side doing nothing with his life, and is sitting in 770 because his parents believe that it will get him the top girl on the so called market, or just maybe the parents should settle for the boy from a bal tishuva family who has real ethics and ambitions in life, and is working, and going to school thinking about a way to support his future wife and is not sitting in 770 and wasting his time..
(8/22/2010 2:58:35 PM)
34
very good
Amazing!!!
(8/22/2010 3:00:37 PM)
35
ok: let's deal with the BT v;s Geje issue
let's face it, geje have a lot to learn from the BT's and the BT's have a lot to learn from the geje's.
if the geje's get snotty, then their yiches isn't worth a dime. I know geje families who are judgmental status seekers. Hardly what a BT family is looking for - a BT family wants real emes. Hate to say it - not many geje families are really emes these days. it is the BT families who are. Yes, i mean what i say.
(8/22/2010 3:05:39 PM)
36
Really?
To # 20- you write " wouldn't want to marry a bal teshuva family. You have to stick to your own kind. I mean, you wouldn't marry out of the faith would you?"

Sorry but there is no comparison between marrying out of the faith, which is a Halachic prohibition, and marring a BT, which is perfectly Halachcially permissible.

So you don't want to marry from a BT family, that is OK. Just don't cloak it in righteousness. Be honest. Say you are a bigot, because that is what you are.

Do us a favor, keep inbreeding.... would love to see how your kids turn out....

Good riddance!
(8/22/2010 3:10:05 PM)
37
not true
the parents have to want it because it reptresents them and if they dont like it it can mess up the marrige!!
(8/22/2010 3:12:02 PM)
38
anonymous
in response to dear anonymous, i highly disagree!!!! it makes no difference if your parent is bt or not. you can have children of bt's who are super chassidish and kind and sweet and you can have a crown heights family with a strong yichus and the kids are chas v'shalom (lets put it mildly) not that chassidish! that is why you cant put off a shidduch for petty things such as yechus and bt's. you need to do research and see if the boy and the girl are compatable, not if the parents have a yechus etc. .
(8/22/2010 3:12:07 PM)
39
yechis means zippo to me
its middos period.
responsible...
emesdik
hiskashrus to the Rebbe - this is something the Geje's do have more than BT's sometimes. This is something than runs deep in the veins of a person - and that sort of thing does get passed down.
i have to admit it.
sad but true.
(8/22/2010 3:31:37 PM)
40
harmonious
actually, parents do have to be involved in their children's shidduchim. This is not to exclude the opinion of parents. If a parent strongly feels a shidduch is not right, then the child should certainly not pursue it blindly.
However, if a child really like a certain shidduch and the parent wishes to break it up because the person is not what they imagined for their child, or their motivations are not really pure, then that could be problematic. Hashem should help parents and children to work harmoniously together and to find their children's basherts easily and in a good timing.
(8/22/2010 3:41:53 PM)
41
matchmaker matchmaker....
for mama,let him be handsome,for papa let him be as rich as aking,for me oh i wouldnt holler if he were as handsome....
i guess this isnt such a new problem
(8/22/2010 3:43:50 PM)
42
to #20 & #25 not the bosses views.
Its a pity you dont share the Rebbe's Views on this.
In the 60's when a prominent Lub Rabbi from NJ (and Shliach) married 2 of his kids to BT families the Rebbe (our Rebbe, the boss and decider on how we shoyuld act) gave him a personal Yasher Koach.
(8/22/2010 3:52:37 PM)
43
wow
well done! well written, well put!
yashar koach
(8/22/2010 3:55:34 PM)
44
to 39
what's the difference between geje and yichus?
explain please!
(8/22/2010 4:01:14 PM)
45
Half Breed
I am a half breed...
One of my parents came of the boat from Russia, and the other was a traditional NY Jew.
Remember a child of BT that has grown up in CH is FFB.
There is a huge cultural divide with the two types of familys.
stereotyping.
A FFB that grows up in a BT home, has parents that WANT to be frum and chasidish, and struggle to get the hebrew right.
The FFB that grow up in FFB homes live with parents that HAVE to be frum, and struggle to have any real meaning in yiddishkait

both children face an uphill battle to integrate yidishkait in there lives in a healthy way.
the FFB ben BT is embarrassed of the bad skills and frumkait of the parents.

The FFB ben FFB sees only an empty shell of ritual, with politics and machlokes ruling the day.

The trick is to find a boy/girl that has come to be comfortable with who they are, chasidish , frum , Balebatish, modern, or even non observant r'l
then the two young ppl can grow their own home as they go.
(8/22/2010 4:16:41 PM)
46
to #41
The lyrics to "Matchmaker, Matchmaker" are: For Papa, make him a scholar For Mama, make him rich as a king For me, I wouldn't holler if he was as handsome as anything!
(8/22/2010 4:37:31 PM)
47
in most cases
yes there are some parents that know their kids well, but what about all those that don't?

When I have a suggestion for someone I just call them straight up, it's much easier to deal directly with the person, less confusion and they really know best.
(8/22/2010 4:45:18 PM)
48
my g-d save your souls
yichus is like a carrot... the best part is in the ground
(8/22/2010 4:52:22 PM)
49
to #20
Your comments are shocking and sick. You are a disgrace to Chabad. To go so far as to state that marrying a BT is regarded like marrying out of the faith, you are clearly an ignorant disgusting human being.
(8/22/2010 4:53:25 PM)
50
Older single
Right on!
I'm a single girl. My parents refused to allow me to meet a boy whose family happened to live in the same community as ours. They told me straight out that they wouldn't be caught dead in the same picture as that family. The family was fine in my eyes. The parents were a bit interesting. But they were very kind and sincere people. Even more, the boy had an excellent reputation.
I wish they would have read this article then (5 yrs ago). I may have actually gotten married.
(8/22/2010 5:04:54 PM)
51
I never read an article
Specially written by a girl that I agree with 100%.

You are totally right, and that is why the children, and specially the daughters need to be more assertive and not let your over protective mother take care of things for you.

No matter how many "inspirational leaders" talk to your parents, your mother will never get it

IT IS THE DAUGHTERS THAT NEED TO MAKE THEM UNDERSTAND.
(8/22/2010 5:24:26 PM)
52
bt's
stop taking these comments seriously, dont u get it these are leitzim just trying to see how much they can flare you up
(8/22/2010 5:26:35 PM)
53
COME ON!
Is it that hard to spot a bored teens comment. Just ignore 20 and 25!
(8/22/2010 5:36:12 PM)
54
ridiculous! #35
you write:
"Hate to say it - not many geje families are really emes these days. it is the BT families who are"

Hello! Are you the official emes expert in town?????????
(8/22/2010 6:28:11 PM)
55
two faced, insincere, shallow , and hypocritical mothers
A shadchan just told me about the mother of a "good,chassidish boy. The mother yelled at the shadchan saying she Demanded to see a picture of the girl first. She said," do you see my son?", implying he should only get the best! And what is the best? A girls looks.
You mothers expect your sons to be so "CHASSIDISH", and then you act so shallow and only care about looks.

As a B.T. who grew up in a very affluent area,these people sound more shallow then a lot of NOT FRUM people I knew and know. Your priorities are messed up and therefore so will your perfect sons be! Rabbi Friedman said there is a problem today with the Bochurim, that Chassidus is not penetrating them. I think that problem exists with others as well!
(8/22/2010 6:36:12 PM)
56
# 55 u're so right on
Mothers let u're son decide if he likes her looks. There is just so much u can pick, the rest is in his hands.
(8/22/2010 7:12:54 PM)
57
BRILLIANT & TRUE!!
Without think for a second I can name 3 cases of families I know where this garbage is going on & let me tell you, it's not limited to "gehza" families either. In at least 2 of the families drowning in this boat there are THREE kids who are "on line" waiting for someone who is good enough for them (translation: GOOD ENOUGH FOR THE PARENTS!!) In ONE case, we wanted their child for ours. WE were prepared to ignore the parents' shtick because we recognized how special the child is. But the parents stopped it before first base & the shadchan couldn't do a thing about it.

YOU PARENTS OUT THERE WITH KIDS ON LINE: BACK OFF! What are you doing to your children? How can you do this to them? Sons & daughters of 33, 34 living at home, seeing their friends preparing to make Bar Mitzvas & they are the object of pity. Why do you do this? Are you so hateful & controlling?

Children: find your own Shidduchim. Contact the shadchans & tell them to leave mommy & tatty out of it. Don't worry about them handing over wads of cash for a fancy vort. I & my friends will give you a vort to remember, as beautiful as anyone's. Be pro-active & FIND YOUR BASHERT!
(8/22/2010 8:33:34 PM)
58
Don't get too excited about 20's comment
It is obviously a spoof, as nobody thinks this way today, if ever they did. Check any geje mishpacha, and you'll find it has more skeletons than a graveyard. having said that, the article rings true, and parents (myself) need to focus on the important things, and help our children focus on the important things. Most importantly is to remeber that the guy or girl with ALL the maalos was not yet born, and when he is, he doesn't want your daughter!
(8/22/2010 8:50:38 PM)
59
to 55
It is all very nice blabbing about how a person must look at the pnimius etc, which of course is true, but a marriage must involve also a physical attraction, as any Rov involved in shidduchim will tell you.
(8/22/2010 9:03:20 PM)
60
annoyed already
So interesting how many Geshe's and their like, knock on the doors of the 'working' Bt's for money for moisdos and peulos. It's ok to take their money but not to marry off their kids to....
(8/23/2010 1:23:23 AM)
61
What kind of experience does a Bochur or single Girl have in Shidduchim?
Would you let your 20 year old son or daughter who JUST tried for the first time to drive a car, drive through the rush hour streets of manhattan? Of course NOT...

Why then would you want them to decide for themselves on such a critical issue such as the person to marry for life - without any real life and marital experience???

The son and daughter should be consulted but the parents must ultimately give their approval and advice.

(8/23/2010 2:31:26 AM)
62
Who do we think we are?
Who are we to demand that our children / ourselves will only go out with someone between the height of x and y. have the hair color range of white blonde to strawberry blonde with a dress size of -5..... we are not creating someone to go out with and marry.... if there was a single out there who is extra special in middos, haskafa etc but doesnt fit the physical criteria do you think it is right to 'pass up' the opportunity to meet?!?!!?
(8/23/2010 2:39:02 AM)
63
to number #20
BAAL TESHUVA BAAL TESHUVA....(the minute u hear it, SHE/HE ISNT JEWISH!) that what u make it sound like...wow...being a chabad baal teshuva all the way, i am disgraced to have read ur comment!
PLEASE EXPLAIN: WHAT DO SHLUCHIM DO???? its thanks to them that i am a frum girl today for 3 yrs BARUCH HASHEM! ! also, do u know who the Rebbe is?
(8/23/2010 3:06:03 AM)
64
to #55
what is so terrible about wanting to see a photo of the boy/girl before they go out? looks are not the main thing but a physical attraction is a big part of compatibility.
good luck everyone.
(8/23/2010 3:06:33 AM)
65
To # 48
U are funny !!!!!!!!! Everyone read # 48 !!
(8/23/2010 3:06:56 AM)
66
Thank You!
I couldn't have said it better myself!!

One point i might add though, it's extremely frustrating when people don't get back to you at all. They might think it's better to egnore you then to say "no" but let me tell you, hearing no is much better than not hearing anything at all. It's only the right thing to do.... Why keep someone waiting?
(8/23/2010 3:08:55 AM)
67
to 55
I wouldn't want to have such a mom- in-law no matter how good the bochur is. I feel that I am lucky beyond words that these "yichus" families don't want anything to do with my simple, but normal and sincere bt family. thank g-d!!
(8/23/2010 3:12:39 AM)
68
to 54
maybe 35 is not the official emes expert in town. Many yichus families are extremely emesdik , some sadly don't have anything else going for them but there yichus, and these are the ppl who can insist on the best , when they are far far from it.
(8/23/2010 3:16:04 AM)
69
Pathetic
As someone who as chosen to wait a bit before getting into the whole shiduch frenzy (I'm a 23-year-old bochur), I am saddened, but unfortunately not surprised to be reading stuff like this. A marriage is between a MAN and a WOMAN. NOT between the PARENTS of said man and woman. I believe parents should be consulted for advice but the final decision should NEVER rest in their hands. The Torah says about Rivka "nikra la'naarah v'nishalah es piha" (Bereishis 24:57). That's right, SHE made the decision, not her parents.
I can't stand when the simcha is all about the parents and grandparents and not about the Chosson and Kallah THEMSELVES. If it's all about the ancestors, why davka THAT grandson and THAT granddaughter, it could have been any of them..

Just to put this out there, while I don't really like the whole FFB vs BT thing, I'd like to hear some comments on the following: I was raised frum by my mother and stepfather, but my father is not frum and my stepmother is not Jewish. I myself am frum. How would the Crown Heights shiduch scene (thank G-d I do not live there) take to someone like me (hypothetically, just based on that information), would I be fitting for their daughters?

Oh, and while we're on the topic of Gezhe, for all you girls out there, excuse me, PARENTS of girls out there, I know this great guy named Yishmael whose dad is the biggest Tzaddik in the world. He's also got a nephew named Eisav who mamish comes from the most beautiful family. However, I caution any guys from dating this chick called Rivka, she's got a dad and bro who are just up to no good...
(8/23/2010 3:26:48 AM)
70
to #4
About the mother of the boy meeting the girl before the couple meets, that is standard practice in the Chassidic (Polish-Hungarian) world. Both parents meet the girl. Both parents meet the boy. This is before the boy and girl meet. You know what? That Chassidic world does not have a Shidduch crisis. Perhaps we would benefit by learning a thing or two from them about how to marry off one's children.
(8/23/2010 3:28:22 AM)
71
to #60
You wrote, "So interesting how many Geshe's and their like, knock on the doors of the 'working' Bt's for money for moisdos and peulos." You mean like Drizin, Gurary, Spritzer, Rubashkin?
(8/23/2010 3:38:27 AM)
72
The couple themselves
To #69 and others who think that the family is not relevant and the focus should be almost exclusively on the couple - Do you think that boys and girls "dated" back in Europe and North Africa? They did not! Parents arranged their matches. And yes, "like" married "like." There was no such thing as the water carrier's son marrying the lumber merchant's daughter, no matter how fine that son was. It was not even a consideration. Orphans married orphans. Poor married poor. Well-to-do married well-to-do. Unless the boy was an outstanding yeshiva bachur and the girl's father was willing to "buy" him by promising to support him. The couple's personal preferances were hardly considered and they were presented with the match as a done deal to which they gave their tacit approval. As for Biblical personalities, I think we are playing with fire when we draw analogies from them without using Torah commentaries, particularly when using crude terminology such as "chick". And no, Yitzchok and Rivka didn't date. Neither did Yaakov and his wives. He knew with ruach ha'kodesh who was destined for him.
(8/23/2010 3:48:56 AM)
73
BEING DISCREET IS A VIRTUE
WHAT MAY I ASK IS THE ACCOMPLISHMENT OF ARTICLES THE LIKE? I FIND IT POINTLESS. THE OUTCOME JUST INCITES FURTHER RECHILUS, LOSHON HORO. IN MY OPINION, NOTHING RATHER,BUT HARM, ON MANY LEVELS RESULTS OF NONSENSE LIKE THE ABOVE. ARTICLE, AS WELL AS COMMENTS............................
I AM A MOTHER OF CHILDREN OF AGE.. MY ADVICE, BE SENSIBLE AND DISCRETION IS ADVISABLE. NO QUESTION EVERY PARENTS WANTS WHAT IS BEST FOR THEIR CHILD. DIFFERENT STROKES FOR DIFFERENT FOLKS.
HAVE A NICE DAY!
(8/23/2010 4:26:40 AM)
74
I'd date you, #69
I thoroughly enjoyed that moshul.
(8/23/2010 5:16:39 AM)
75
No Pictures
May I propose a radical idea?
No Pictures before the first date. When you get to know someone in person, what's inside becomes more important. A beautiful/handsome person on the outside (but not on the inside) won't look so beautiful/handsome anymore. But if you reject someone based on a picture, you may have missed out on meeting someone really special.
(8/23/2010 5:46:43 AM)
76
Boys and girls also are refusing shidduchim...
Another problem we see is that boys and girls refuse shidduchim all too often even when their parents push for it. And very often without a proper basis. If you dont give shidduchim a chance then obviously it can take longer, Hashem yirachem...
(8/23/2010 5:47:47 AM)
77
so so true!!
Does your child like him/her? let them get married!!!! you'll be happy when your child is happy. isn't that true?
At last, you are not the one who's marring him/her.
(8/23/2010 6:05:27 AM)
78
descendant from lubavitchter and tolner chassidism-serel chana maness
we just found out that my mother-in-law's grandfather was a chassid of the rebbe (chicago) all the way back to the alter rebbe and my alta grandparents were tolner chassidism,who are brothers with the square rebbe,these are two of 8 brothers of the chernopal rebbe,who just happens to be a couisin of the alter rebbe. personally,a person has to look at the individual,each person has challenges that the abitchter gives them,tests, to work on themselves,as all souls are recarnation of previous souls that were sent back down here to fix something,as that's how the rebbe insist that we bring more souls into this world and now g-d willing we should see the imminent geula l never paid too much attention where aperson was from,bt or fffb,it was your essence that interesed me and still does, l do agree with the article,l kinda feel the middle ground is best. l hope that # 20 will realized that
(8/23/2010 6:07:04 AM)
79
to 76
Perhaps you attitude is wrong. Trust singles in the choices that they make just a little bit more, and sometimes it can take a longer, because that is how Hashem wants it, even if the person does everything write. No one should judge anyone because no one knows the reason behind why things happen the way they do.
(8/23/2010 6:12:01 AM)
80
Agree with 76
Very true
(8/23/2010 6:25:04 AM)
81
no 20 is not even worth responding to
just leave it, and have pity on such a response
(8/23/2010 6:27:13 AM)
82
to some people out there
If your one of those ppl that thinks you know why a person is single, stop,(no matter what your "reasonings" are I have no words to describe how arrogant it is, and how poorly it reflects on you as a person. The least you can do is stop such judgmental thoughts and speech & the very best you can do is actually help instead of judging, obviously to the best of your ability, since we all have a collective responsibility.
(8/23/2010 6:35:33 AM)
83
to 82
People who are judgmental of single are to be pitied the most. Usually it is the people who point fingers at others who have something lacking in their lives or themselves, may Hashem help them!
(8/23/2010 6:46:37 AM)
84
to 33
learning in 770 is not wasting time. Sorry. I as a single gir l would prefer someone who sincerely learns in 770 then someone who is involved in other matters. The fact that some do it for the wrong reason and hence do waste time is a different story for a different time.
(8/23/2010 6:52:57 AM)
85
to sos
I feel like articles such as these would be a lot more credible if you posted them along with names.
(8/23/2010 6:56:10 AM)
86
Shulchan Aruch
A word to parents. The Shulchan Aruch clearly rules that if man wants to marry a woman and his parents object, that he does not listen to them.
(8/23/2010 8:21:07 AM)
87
to 85
And why would the author of the article want her name published?
With the kind of communication between her parents and her, doens't seem likely this would go down to well with them...
Let alone the rest of the shidduch community (other parents)....
(8/23/2010 8:23:19 AM)
88
con't from 78
l forgot to add the family name,Heifetz, any one know of them? there from chicago,from before ww 1. if anyone knows anything please contact us scmaness@gmail thanks
(8/23/2010 8:27:40 AM)
89
to 39
No that is not true that hiskashrus is found more in geje. I know people from bt families or bt themselves who are deeply, deeply connected to the Rebbe.
(8/23/2010 9:07:50 AM)
90
#20
Maybe the rebbe should have had seperate lines for " real jews" and the the b.t./gerim.
Hasn't a BT that stuck around in ch and raised a family and sent their children to the chabad system "proven " he /she is just as good as the frum from birth- you know the ones that are all frying out now????
(8/23/2010 9:26:36 AM)
91
question
What should a boy/girl do if they fell they know a good shidduch for themselfs?
(8/23/2010 10:53:41 AM)
92
To 91
Go to your mashpiah and discuss the matter with him or her. Follow the mashpiah's advice.
(8/23/2010 11:41:49 AM)
93
HERE'S A GOOD QUESTION
What about the case alluded to by Ms. Maness -- when someone who didn't know they had yichus, discovers they truly do???

Even BTs can find out they are gezhe!

What does the shidduch world do with that kind of situation? If it's a BT, does it get ignored? Or what?

My spouse recently found out their family tree includes someone whose commentary is found in every chumash!

Does that mean we're gezhe now? (I bet not!)

(8/23/2010 11:47:07 AM)
94
to 91
go for it!
dont let it slip away
a mashpia is nice but if not, try to get a mutual friend to match the both of you
(8/23/2010 12:16:18 PM)
95
annoyed already
To 71- S ome Geshe knock on the doors of those 5 families you mentioned AND on those of the doors of bts working. What planet are you from??? Last week 2 people from Geshe families came to my door asking for $5000 for the Shluchim office telling me i was in the 'select group' of people they were approaching,that beacuse he was such GENEROUS guy he would allow me to pay over a year or two;, They also said that in Cown Heights there are only 5 families they can go to , but where I live there are so many people! And yet these same people tell my son not to get an education so that he can earn this money himself one day!Heaven forbid if they or their kids would marry my kids either! my cash is ok but it all ends there.
(8/23/2010 1:19:01 PM)
96
To #72
This is #69
I did not mean to say that family is irrelevant. Family is extremely important. But ultimately they should not be the ones DECIDING who their children marry. Suggestions, advice and approvals are fine, but the final decision lies with the boy and girl themselves. If I were to be influenced by my family-- which, unfortunately is rife with intermarriage-- whom to marry, I wouldn't be in a good place at all! Rashi says on the above-mentioned posuk quoting the medrash- "Mikan she-ein masi-in es ha'isha elah midatoh." The marriage has to go ahead with HER knowledge and consent. If the parents think it's a great shiduch, but the boy or girl don't think so, then their opinion is the deciding factor. Again, as far as advice goes, the parents have every right to contribute their opinions, but not to DECIDE for their children.

As to the "chick" comment, I apologize if I offended the honor of Rivka imeinu by referring to her that way. The point I was trying to make is that it doesn't matter what type of family you are from, there are always exceptions. If we're not careful, and we only look at the family and not the individual, we could end up marrying the Yishmaels and the Eisavs to the wrong people based on their lineage, and ignoring the Rivka's and Rus' because of theirs.

(8/23/2010 1:19:48 PM)
97
re 94
Agreed.
(8/23/2010 1:31:40 PM)
98
to 72
Oh wow you are inspiring
(8/23/2010 1:56:11 PM)
99
@72
For someone who is able to discern between crude and not-crude language, I am quite surprised that you aren't able to extract information from what @69 wrote. Quite clearly (well I think it is clear, correct me if I am wrong), @69 was making a point that he thinks that the main point of marriage is the joining of two unique souls, and not about which family you are marrying into, since all families have their 'dark' sides to them. This point does not in any way negate the importance of having family/mashpiim guide you in this important step of your life.
Thus, your assertion that ''like'' married ''like'' really has nothing to do with the post. I am still trying to figure out your point. You have just stated facts without mentioning how you are using them. Please enlighten me.
And on the contrary, from that which we say that previous generations where more spiritually inclined (ruach hakodesh as you put it), wouldn't you say that therefore in present generations we can not do as they did due to our lack of spiritual sensitivity?
(8/23/2010 2:31:28 PM)
100
To #25
Dear Rabbi or whomever,
What you said is true but please remember the Chasidishe Yidden who masered others and sent them to the Gulag, to save their loved one's. Until today there are 'Gezehe' families which reject such families out of hand.
(8/23/2010 3:50:01 PM)
101
The Truth of the Matter
Gezhe seems to be a word reserved only for Lubavitchers. Everyone else's chashivus is referred to as Yechus. My family are descendants of Rashi, but who cares in Lubavitch? That's yichus, but not Gezhe. If a boy and a girl are "off the derech" but both from Gezhe families, each family will seek the other out. They still don't want their "heilige" children marrying an "outsider" or a BT family from 40 years ago. If a BT today has anything whatsoever that may compromise him or her, forget it, in this uncompromising elitist fraternity called Gezhe Lubavitch. Also quite often individuals who came into Lubavitch 40 years ago at 17 years old, maybe from a modern orthodox home, went to Yeshiva, onto college and professional school, marries a girl from a similar frum family, are called "BT's in Lubavitch". Only because they come from the "outside" and "modern orthodoxy" isn't considered very frum by these Chassidim. Hence the children of this marriage, albeit very "with the program" and chassidish, have a difficult time with shidduchim regarding this inyan of "status". Now if this family were wealthy and balei tzedaka, that's another matter. If a BT family is wealth many Gezhe will go for that. Possibly they're worth it if they can support the children on shlichus, working for the Mechutan. If a boy or girl today has anything that compromises them, whether its finances, not so good looking, a lack of prestige, job or status, a father or mother who had a known personal issue even from years prior such as a learning disability, a mental issue, alchocholism or a legal issue, than forget it. A shidduch becomes almost impossible. All to no fault of the child. If their siblings have a learning issue, 1 or more than 1 sibling is "off the derech", this could knock you right out of the "game". On and on the story continues.
The ONLY standard for shidduchim that should exist in Lubavitch today, is not how is was done in Nevel. but stricly by the standards the Rebbe approved of and wanted. These same "big Chassidim" who speak of Hiskashrus to the Rebbe are the worst violators of the Rebbe's standard for shidduchim.
It is these Gezhe people who are missing out on some of the highest quality boys and girls, possibly 75% of the "market", only because they don't "know" who family is. Its their loss, not ours. Its pure snobbery at best, ignorance at worst, and exactly NOT what the Rebbe wanted.
Yes many BT's and BT families have alot more going for it than many Gezhe families. More love, more functionality, better values, healthier children, and closer sibling relationships. Being frum from birth is all an FFB family has over a BT family. Other than that, its pure ignorance to think, BT families are lacking anything that any FFB family may not. And yes marraiges of freie yidden can be just as good and strong as any frum marraige, visa vie love, loyalty, sacrifice, values, etc.
The sad part is, is that many BTs actually have bought into the propoganda handed them by their "teachers". That is that their families are inferior to FFB families. That because their families are not frum, they are lacking in everything else. Enough of this self deprecating attitude! The FFB families have succeeded in putting the BTs exactly where they want them, at the bottom of the heap. I would venture to say, that many BTs, having known then maybe 30-40 years ago, what they know now, having faced this discrimination, primarily within the shidduch system, would not have come into Lubavitch had they known they would have to face this attitude of separatism. They were always taught that all Jews are equal. Now they know that doesn't include the bank accounts or the Chuppa.
(8/23/2010 4:11:36 PM)
102
@96
Your writing is refreshingly clear and possibly the best written comment on this site yet. Who are you?
(8/23/2010 5:15:49 PM)
103
69/96
To #102
Thanks for the compliment. Who am I? Oh, just a concerned citizen... ;-)
(8/23/2010 7:49:58 PM)
104
to 59
Obviously looks matter, but it is shallow for the mother to demand "she be beautiful", as if that is the most important thing. And if it is, how are we different from the secular world?
And, again, then what kind of mixed message are we imparting to our children?
(8/23/2010 8:18:48 PM)
105
To 101
You outline and describe the same feelings I have regarding this issue of shidduchim and the way is handled today within Lubavitch. Kol haKavod that you did it.
I want to add that also
children that comes from broken families and gerim and children of gerim are unfortunately not even given a chance neither. And unfortunately neither the lady that wrote the original "complain" about her parents deciding for her, neither other of the young boys and girls in the shidducihm scenario, will have the courage to really break with the situation, because they are children of FFBs or "old" BTs and that, at the end of the day, they know that if they want to be considered for a "respectable" (meaning, from a good establised family) shidduch they have to do it in the most classic way possible: Through mom and dad.

Hypocrites those they complain about "mom and dad" trying to marry off their children, but if someone would suggest directly to the boy or to the girl: a mentsch, good midos counterpart and such suggestion is a of any of the types (BT, broken family, geirim, etc), they also wouldn't accept it.
(8/23/2010 10:36:26 PM)
106
For Good Advice - Talk to...
Try Rabbi Kantor (snr) at sim.shalom.uveracha@gmail.com.
Over many years we have talked to him and he has been a fountain of wisdom and a good listner. Ksiva VChasomah tova
(8/24/2010 1:17:52 AM)
107
geshe is overated, move on
is this Rabbi Goldman and others like him for real???....geshe is highly overated...his viewpoint is myopic, antiquated and naive; further he needs to be majorally enlightened and de-programmed...................
(8/24/2010 1:44:56 AM)
108
stop hypocrisy
I think the hypocrisy in our system is why so many of our kids fry out. On the one hand parents supposedly install the teaching of our Rebbe, and on the other there is naked hypocrisy on how we treat other jews, just based on our juvenile desires, not at all what the rebbe taught. Of course they will disrespect their parents and go of the derech. grow up already.
(8/24/2010 3:38:43 AM)
109
i once went to a geshe shadchan....
I come from a bt family & I wouldn't want to marry a geshe.(unless the boy or the family was truly tolerent & respectful & normal to others) I think the bt 's out their are perfectly fine & good. I really don't get what the fuss is all about. BT's Be happy that you do not have to marry into such segregation i,t is very small thing for people to get into these "fixed truths". I once went to a " good & well known shadchan" who the minute I open my mouth just to discuss the 'geshe" thing ( I did not even have a chance to say anything) I was told that this in fact it is very understandable that geshe only want geshe, I was not even given the opportunity to say anything at all about it. I was just cut off and given the "truth".Well this is not something I respect. This is not a shadchan that I respect deep down, AND
I DO KNOW GESHE PEOPLE, AS WELL AS GESHE OR NOT SHADCHANIM WHO DO NOT SHARE THE SAME VIEWS AS THE ABOVE MENTIONED PEOPLE & SHADCHAN even though they do live in reality & are aware that likes marry like. simply put they are bigger people( and perhaps more intelligent) then the ones who have, rushed narrow views.
(8/24/2010 4:03:21 AM)
110
agree with 102
we need ppl like you...write more often
(8/24/2010 4:23:35 AM)
111
Leaders please step up
the leaders, as well as all of us regular people need to start creating more unity with jews. all jews alike. I am not saying that this means geshe should marry not geshe. I am simply saying that more unity and less segregation is in dire need. The Rebbe, after all, is the one who taught us this. And He left it up to us to bring Moshiach. So lets put our personal needs aside,even for just a little and rise to the occasion. We need to hear the leaders more. this is not enough. If there are leaders out there in hiding, now is the time to step up and not be so humble.
(8/24/2010 4:23:41 AM)
112
To 96
there is another possuk : ``Elisheva bas aminodov ACHOS NACHSHON``
and rashi saids : Mikan sheamischaten beicha ichal beacheo
(8/24/2010 4:53:13 AM)
113
to 112
can you translate?
(8/24/2010 5:10:01 AM)
114
BAAAL TESHUVA VS FFB
what is this BAAL TESHUVA VS FFB all about?
please someone explain the "unacceptedness" about a BAAL TESHUVA...he/she cannot be accepted into a geshe family because he/she is a BAAL TESHUVA and has an unfamilier last name and does not ring a bell in the 'lubav family"? what is THAT!??!?! anybody know what the REBBE said about BAAL TESHUVA'S? some insight would be extremely appreciated...
(8/24/2010 5:18:32 AM)
115
bt family
Im from a geshe family from both sides, dating back to chassidim of the alter rebbe. I believe there is something special that a geshe family has that others do not. My family risked there lives and died for chassidus and for other Jews. It brings out a certain strength of character in a family. It isnt an elitist view its just recognizing something distinct abt your family and looking for the same in the family you marry into.

I chose to marry someone from a bt family, because of my husbands special qualities.

I am aware that my children are no longer considerd geshe and geshe familys will possibly not want to marry them because of their bt family status. And i understand why.
(8/24/2010 9:55:00 AM)
116
for #113
looks like 112 wrote semi-french style -some of the "ch"="sh"
anyway, loosely translated/background:
Aharon HaKohen married Elisheva, the daughter of Aminodov, and the SISTER of Nachshon (yes, the one who jumped into the yam suf....)
Rashi says on this - from here we learn that one who marries a woman should inquire about her brothers.
(8/24/2010 10:55:02 AM)
117
to 115
thanks
i needed to hear that
i sensed there was something there
appreciated it
but didnt quite understand why
makes sense
thanks so much for commenting
may your children be so special that they find they best beshert (omain).
(8/24/2010 2:05:22 PM)
118
RE: bt family
Dear Bt Family,

The point is not that geshe is not special, it is.The point is that each individual should be judged based on their own value, just like you did with your husband. An individual who comes from a geshe family, yet has not such great personal qualities , his/her geshe alone is not worth much since it did not affect him/her on a personal level. Only when an individual emulates, or at least tries to emulate his/her grandparents or greatgrandparents then his/her geshe is worth the pride.Likewise a person can come from a rotten or simple background, yet he/she may actually be a priceless diamond.( I think we all know somone like that) Each person should be judged by who they are. And even though I can understand why a family would want to choose a family that is similar to them, I don't really understand why it should be THAT segregated.

Thank you
(8/24/2010 2:19:15 PM)
119
To #113
This is #96

You've made a very good point. Obviously, it is important to investigate the family of a prospective shidduch, because, understandably, they have a profound impact and influence on a person. It is interesting though, that Rashi there (Shmos 6:23) uses the expression "livdok b'acheha" which means to investigate the brothers. That is what should be done. The details of the person's family should be INVESTIGATED open-mindedly and objectively, and conclusions should be drawn only after gathering meaningful information. What seems to be the problem that's being discussed here, is that parents are writing people off straight away without any investigations, just based on the fact they fit a certain social description.
I think if people would adopt a more open-minded approach (which in truth is the Torah's approach), we would all be better off, and would discover more of the "Shoshana bein hachochim" attributes which Rivka Imeinu personified.
(8/24/2010 2:30:10 PM)
120
enough!
stop insulting the gezhe people!
(8/24/2010 3:01:25 PM)
121
121
no we wont
and it needs to be discussed openly
and if you cant take the discussion
then go put your head back in your bucket of sand!
(8/24/2010 3:27:05 PM)
122
Please have some respect and kovod
for BTs, many who sacrificed greatly to become frum and follow the Rebbe (at least are trying). I am so tired of hearing about how certain people had roots to those who sacrificed for chassidus in Russia, etc. What about the generation right here who gave alot of blood, sweat and tears for their own yiddishkeit and that of their children? These are the modern day stories of inspiration, quite over looked and under appreciated.
(8/25/2010 4:30:35 AM)
123
Keep the inspiring tradition; change presentation
We all, as Lubavitchers, should gain inspiration from the ancestors of the gezhe families within Lubavitch.

One way the girls of Beis Rivka have been presented with these role models, is that every year (in certain grades), each girl in the class has to pick a member of their family and report on all of the mesiras nefesh he/she showed for Yiddishkeit during their lifetime.

How do you think the Beis Rivka girls feel, who are daughters/granddaughters of geirim and BTs, when this assignment is given. It is institutionalized humiliation!

I think it would be far more valuable to include the stories of our inspiring Chabad forebears throughout the year's school learning WITHOUT setting up a situation that creates a humiliatingly clear divide between who is a "somebody" and who is a "nobody".

Beis Rivka, I respectfully suggest the following change: Rather than tell all of these stories (of mesiras nefesh) all at once -- during the previously described annual assignment -- it may be better for all the girls to have one or two of these individuals taught about each week, This would spread and prolong the inspiration to last throughout the school year. And it would spare about half of the girls in Crown Heights the anguish of that insensitive annual assignment.

In addition, maybe one of the two stories each week could be about the mesiras nefesh shown by a gair, or by a BT -- not to demean the gezhe in any way, but to ALSO inspire our future shluchas with even greater respect for the not-yet-frum.
(8/25/2010 7:03:46 AM)
124
to valued bt families
geshe wanting to marry geshe, does NOT at all undermine the virtues of a ba'al teshuva.
Why do bts feel that when they arent chosen as a geshe's spouse, they are looked down upon?!
Their sacrifice and acheivement truly is remarkable. but, is is very fair and normal for geshe to look for the same quality in their spouses family. There are lots of special traits out there, everyone is entitled to choose the traits that they value most.
That does not put your acheivement down ib any way. If you are a bt and your children were raised frum, would you want your child to marry someone who just became a bt himself, as remarkable as it truly is?!
(8/25/2010 7:29:04 AM)
125
Bt's you don't have to get insulted
Bt's: Be proud that your parents or you yourself had the courage & humility to change, recognize the truth & to change lifestyles around. Not everyone can do it!!!! YOU THINK THAT'S NOT MISERAS NEFESH? THINK AGAIN. Read what the Rebbe taught about BT's!!! The Rebbe's whole mission is to reach out to Jews everywhere because of the pure love he has for you & me. Stand up tall & straight.!!!!! There is no need for anyone to feel superior or inferior because of geshe or not. The most main point is how you act now, geshe or not. Hamase Hu Haiker, and that means now. Don't worry what people think. Hashem is the true Shadchan of you and your children. Leave it up to him and I promise you, you'll get the best.
(8/25/2010 8:38:14 AM)
126
It's all in the Aibeshter's hands
Parents and Shadchanim don't have the koach to interfere with a shiddach that has been decreed 40 days before her birth. Nor can they delay it. If it is meant to happen, it will happen in the right time no matter what any other person does. Only the couple themselves can affect it in any way.

To all worried singles out there, don't give up hope.
The same G-d who split the Yam Suf can find you a match.
Miracles do happen. I've been priviledged to see it myself.
(8/25/2010 11:22:29 AM)
127
To #126
What you have written is very true. I can attest to that myself.

However, that does not mean that we should sit on the couch with our feet on the ottoman and Mr/Mrs perfect (bashert) will come knocking on the door.

Parents cannot keep throwing out suggestions, since they don't "fit" their own criteria.

It is a) their child who needs to live with their spouse until 120. and b) If their child is ready to get married, then maybe they can have some input into deciding if they would like to go out on this date too?
(8/25/2010 1:30:11 PM)
128
i wonder why
#70 you say chassidish don't have a shidduch problem they have worse l"O a divorce problem
(8/25/2010 2:56:15 PM)
129
Hasham is in control not you
in the end HASHAM not you is the final word we think we have all the answers and are in charge there are alot of unhappy couples out there girls know what you can live with and what you cant guys look for a person not a dress size or hair color looks fade but the person on the insidealwaysstays the same im so sick of all this bt ffb its all garbage if a person is a mentch and GETS YOU the nits will work moms your son is human look for a HUMAN girl who will raise your grandkids and have a good home loving kind wife thats all THAT counts and dont look down at anyone we all have things we can work on and no one is perfect not you me or anyone good luck
(8/26/2010 2:24:57 AM)
130
question for #125
I AM INTERESTED TO KNOW WHAT THE REBBE SAID ABOUT "BAAL TESHUVA'S"? PLEASE TELL ME OR TELL ME WHERE I CAN FIND OUT? THANKS :-)
(8/26/2010 4:53:47 AM)
132
to 130 I am 131 and i didn't work
sorry, all the links that I posted before just lead to chabad.org, which is not what I wanted.

Just try this: go on to chabad. org and search the mamar "Borei Niv Sifasayim" and that should give you a start.

Good luck!!
(8/26/2010 6:52:01 AM)
133
thank you 132
thank you 132 i appreciate that
shabbat shalom!!
(8/26/2010 10:00:28 AM)
134
to 133 from 132
Your welcome number 132, anytime and have a great shabbos yourself ;-)


(8/26/2010 2:41:11 PM)
135
.....
Dont know if this is the right place to ask this question since sooo much has been discused already
But what about a so called ashekenaz marrying a so called sepharad knoing that they both come from normal lubavitch families??!!
I am trying to convince my parents that there is nothinfg wrong but i cant...
Anyone can help me
Thanks
(8/26/2010 11:09:41 PM)
136
to 135
I don't really can not see what is wrong with a Ashekenaz family marring a Sepahrdic family, so long as they are both good, normal families. Maybe you should get somone who is open minded about these thing, your parents both respect ( for ex a rav, rabbi, or friend that they would listen to) to talk to your parents and intereven on your behalf
(8/27/2010 3:30:48 AM)
137
to 135
I read at least one letter in Eternal Joy, where the Rebbe makes it very clear that there's no problem with it... in Volume 1. You can read it and show it to your parents...
(8/27/2010 4:10:47 AM)
138
yup
to 137... that's it... The Rebbe's opinion on this matter is that there is absolutely no contradiction and to go ahead for it!
(8/27/2010 7:10:10 AM)
139
To #101,#121 good going!
good for you #101 and #121, tell it like it is.........finally the frustration of us "older" BTs of many years is leaking out, (or maybe gushing out); we are wonderful, wonderful and wonderful, until shiddach time comes, then we are wonderful from a distance or for the proverbial shabbos meal invitation or for our check writing abilities, After being away from CH many years and post Gimmel Tammuz, I am finding it incredulous that this segregation between geshe and BTs still exists!
(8/28/2010 4:51:25 PM)
140
good article, great comment
BS"D
comment #29 is probably one of best and most practical comments I've seen
1st it's written by someone with experience - a parent who married off all of his/her children
2nd it gives a practical balanced response to the issue at hand without losing the "bird in the hand", the shiduch system that brought us to where we are today
It is a great response since it would work equally well if the article writer, who makes a good point, is accurate about her issues or is miss-guided and immature (I'm not disagreeing with the writer, but the issues as written can be either true or, and often are, at least partially, imagined)

axing the shiduch research system will remove out greatest filter. status quo has it's problems, comment #29's experienced idea: keep your parents involved but if you suspect they have intentions other than your best interest, first try direct communication and if it doesn't work have someone they respect talk to them.

Thank you!!
(8/28/2010 5:45:34 PM)
141
HUMILIATION
to 20 :when you said this, is the same like the other jews are nothing because there are not only a baal teshuva but if is not frum THIS JEWISH ARE NOTHING???
you cant make this diference ALL JEWISH HAVE A NESHAMA AND CAN BE A GOOD FRUM PERSON with the time,so its scandalous to read this about a jewish he supposed to be so religious person or whatever you sayed that you are!!!!
you have to understand all the other jewish too ,not only your uncommunicative world
Jess
(9/14/2010 1:42:00 AM)
142
Sick of superiority complexes
To 112:
The pasuk says look at their brother--not their father. Look at how the kids were raised and if they're chassidishe kids--not at whether the great-grandfather pished in nevel.

115:
Every single person who is Jewish today's ancestors were moiser nefesh for yiddishkeit. Every single Jew today went through pogroms, holocausts, expulsions vechulu. Just because you were lucky enough to know--for no zchus of your own--that your family came from Nevel or Lubavitch or wherever--why does that make you or your ancetors better then mine? I know my great-grandparents were chassidim in Russia but that's all I know about them. Does that mean that I'm less then you? That they weren't moiser nefesh for yiddishkeit?

Stop looking at chitzonius and let Chassidus penetrate you. If you look at somebody's last name and that's all that matters to you--then you've missed the point of Yiddishkeit and completely missed the point in everything that the Rebbe said.

But go on, anyone who's interested can go marry some gezhe bochur who secretly touches his beard and does who knows what, because if that's all that matters to you--that your kids will marry somebody gezhe, then go send your kids off to marry some half frei gezhe kid from Crown Heights.
(9/22/2010 1:08:30 PM)
143
oh great
I'm a young man and my family and I are geirim for 9 years now BH. Personally I believe I was raised well, have good midos, and was always on the orefront in yeshivah. Now reading all these comments about BT vs FFB, geez, is there no hope to marry into a good amily? We really have to stick to our "own kind"?
(11/21/2011 3:39:36 PM)
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