A bill aims to put a stop to teacher-administered spanking, making corporal punishment illegal in any school — including private religious ones — that receives even a trickle of federal funding.
Introduced by Rep. Carolyn McCarthy, D-N.Y., the bill would ban schools from practicing any corporal penalties “as a form of punishment,” or “for the purpose of modifying undesirable behavior.”
The bill would cover public schools and any private schools that receive federal money for free lunch programs or bus rides for their poorer students. The bill has 18 co-sponsors, all Democrats.
According to the Department of Education, 20 states allow corporal punishment in public schools. Where it is allowed, corporal punishment is more likely to be disproportionately applied to minority students (36 percent) and disabled students (19 percent).
“Corporal punishment does not work and in fact leads to increased negative behavior and dropout rates,” said Rep. Bobby Scott, D-Va., a co-sponsor of the bill.
The bill does not ban the use of “reasonable restraint” should a student’s behavior put other students or school personnel at a risk of injury.
The proposed bill comes amid a growing debate among psychologists on whether spanking is an effective and safe punishment tool.
“Psychologists don’t all agree that spanking is always harmful to children,” said Kim Mills, a spokeswoman for the American Psychological Association. “Some psychologists have a belief that certain levels of gentle punishment may be effective.”
Her association’s official stance is that corporal punishment should not be allowed in schools, day care centers or other institutions.
Juli Slattery, a family psychologist at Colorado Springs, Colo.-based Focus on the Family, suggests tempered spanking on young children as one of many disciplinary tools available to parents.
The bill, she said, is indicative of American society’s collective disagreement on how to punish its children.
The responsibility for discipline, Slattery said, should ultimately rest with parents or guardians, not schools.
But she does worry that bills like McCarthy’s encourage a child’s disregard for consequences.
“I think it’s a step in downplaying discipline,” she said.
Religious school groups, usually quick to guard against government encroachment, have few worries about the bill because officials said many abandoned hitting as a punishment years ago.
But Rabbi Avi Shafran, director of public affairs for the Orthodox Jewish group Agudath Israel of America said, the legislation could set a precedent for more government regulation of private schools.
“We are certainly not enamored of corporal punishment,” Shafran said. “But we are concerned with the rights of religious schools.”
I spank my children, I don’t feel good doing it, I love them deeply, Proverbs 15:32 says: The one who refuses correction despises himself, but whoever hears reproof acquires understanding. In Deuteronomy 8:5 says: Be keenly aware that just as a parent disciplines his child, the Lord your God disciplines you. The issue here is that as a species we require constant direction, been imperfect as we are, whether we are children or grownups. we correct our children as we find it logical and conducive to correct behavior, in order to prevent a worsen state of disobedience in a developing… Read more »
you are absolutely correct that teachers do deserve respect. can we now move on and discuss the issue of HITTING which is what this article is about? it is not a question of either you respect a teacher or you get hit (or either the parents respect the teacher or the kid gets hit). They are two distinct issues. The Rebbe (as quoted in earlier posts) was against hitting and teachers who hit are in the worng proffession and should excuse themselves from teaching ever again.
A teacher position itself deserves respect.
That is a MAJOR point!
buddy,
respect is earned, do you understand that ,
i had a teacher that we all respected, he was a very fine personality,
he never hit any of us, and he never needed to,
we would run to do anything he asked us, out of respect and appreciation towards him,
you cant force yourself to respect someone who, does not
earn respect (to say the least).
remember:
with teachers that are truly qualified, there will be NO VIOLENCE
“they dont care how much you know, until they know how much yo care”
to #43:
you conveniently completely missed my point!
#44:
Your words are a perfect example of the problem today…
Not giving Rebbeim of our community enough appreciation and respect and trust…
That IS the problem…
Then the children grow up feeling always justified no matter what there teachers do…they are rebellious and they are rebuked and they don’t accept the rebuke because their parents are always defending them and showing a lack of respect to the teachers – why should the children have it if the parents don’t!?
a parent hitting is a little diferent because a parent is more likely to mitigate any smacking with kindness and love. Mashein kein a teacher who often times arrives in class with negetive residue from his domestic life and may “raib” with a certain child in school. In other words: a teacher who hits in school and also hit his own children at home, will be hitting the children in school much more severely than his hits his kids. I do not trust ANY person today to hit my kids. I have put 7 children through the CH schools (some… Read more »
to #42: that letter that you so kindly posted is the correct one and it says what i worte, namely: the rebbe would have like to stop all hitting even with younger children. And the ending of that letter – that you missed out! – is: “obviously, you should immediately change the above [behaviour].”
YOU MUST LOOK AT THE SOURCE. The Rebbe there was clearly talking about older students and not necessarily was he referring to young children at all or negating it altogether – like the bill proposes. And he said “…and concerning the students, I have come to what is written concerning the students…that you are dealing with them by harshly rebuking them etc., even hitting them…obviously this way of treating them is out of the question for senior students and if my words would be heeded I would say this even regarding students that are not senior…” That letter could be… Read more »
generally speaking, the ones who do are less mentschleich and have a violent inclination, but lets take it further…. teachers who DARE touch someone else’s kids, should be locked in solitary confinement for life, OR with a roomate named butch who has nothing on his mind but their pain and anguish for as long as possible. There is NEVER any reason to hit a child. The rebbe was very clear that if you can harness a child’s energy and channel it its is boundless in power, only those lacking in intelligence and creativity, and understanding smack kids, and thus should… Read more »
If #7 IS a principal – THAT is a big part of the discipline problem.
A principal with little education…
Or…something important which must be added to this discussion….
There is a gender difference in this matter:
Boys are different than girls…
smacking now its stopping whats so long
think about last generation, they wore spanked and look how good they are today!!! if you don’t agree then you deserve a spank! spank! spank! spank! spank! just like in those days, spank! spank!……….
parents shouldn’t be banned from potching/ spanking their children. only teaches or non-parents have no right to spank a child.
The Rambam also says there that if the teacher kills the child c”v he is not a fault becuase he was trying to correct the child. No teacher today can say that they are devoted to the extent that I would let them TOUCH my child. I would not even go to rabonim anymore. Streight to the cops. It’s about time we woke up and stopped deluding ourselves: teacher today do not love their chidlren (or they do in the inappropiate way…). Teachers: keep your hands to yourself or kalp kop in vant.
i don’t remember where in Igros Kodesh it is but there is a letter from the Rebbe where he writtes somehting to the effect: if I had the power (“Ilu yasher cheily”) I would ban all hitting completely. Nothing more is needed for Lubavitchers to know that hitting is violence and that is it. There was also a JEM clip this past winter with Rabbi Shmuel Lew Shlit”a recounting an emotional yechidus where he asked the Rebbe about hitting (his children) and the Rebbe was giving him advice how to AVOID it (to think that they are not “your” own… Read more »
I also cant figure out why parents have no clue how to discipline their children, hit and smack their kids as they please and yet they expect teachers to magically know how to handle their child without any form of punishment. and dont give me cr*p about positive praise etc.. while it is definitly preferable sometimes it does NOT work and the only thing a child responds to is harshness. cuz oh yeah thats how the parents do it and thats the only thing the kid responds to.If you cant handle your one child why do you expect teachers to… Read more »
Would you hit an adult, when you dont like their behaviour?!
Hittig someone weaker and more vulnerable than you is wrong. And calling it a potch doesnt make it cute or more ok.
Hurting people is wrong, any way you slice it.
Hurting someone young is even more unexcusable. Nothing justifies hitting a child.
ehem…
no teacher shud hi a child a grl in my class go “hit” by a teacher once oy yo yo no teacher must pysically touch ANY CHILD whoever thinks a teacher shoudl have a right to hit a child omg- not NICE send the kid to the principal dont get ur hands on !
1. the teacher is not there to give over information to the child, rather his job is to teach him the torah and the way of the torah and all this is to be done in the way that the torah says. 2. it is the teachers place to discipline the child that is why he is sent to school. parents don’t have enough time to discipline there children cause for the main part of the day the child is not home. 3. no-one is arguing that a emotionally disturbed teacher that hits a child out of anger and a… Read more »
I cannot believe that you actually condone the hitting of a child in school. . . since when are ALL teachers bigger and better than the children they teach . . Bigger? Yes. . . theres not much to argue over there. . . but, Better?? No way is every teacher better. . . and no way can we say that the child has to know his place and as a result fear and tremble from before his teacher incase he gets hit, as is so often the case. . . there are certainly BIGGER AND BETTER ways in chinuch… Read more »
There are always other ways of disaplining a child for a parent or teacher you should never resort to hitting a child ever
Can anyone who is complaining about hitting children respond to #24???
I know this is a much debated topic, even in the secular world. But #24 kind of puts a lid on it for us. Watch out children!
I think spanking children is appalling, but do we really want the congress of the United States to decide what way is the appropriate way to educate our children? These decisions should be made by parents and educators, not by politicians.
my teachers hit me as a kid and i will do the same its the only thing that works thank g-d for the whip is what my teacher used to say and i definitly learnt something from him
beat the kids
it is not the teachers place to hit a child. if a child is not listening you send him out and call the parents. the rest is up to the parents to discepline their child.
That means: The opinion of the layperson is opposite the opinion of the Torah. The Rambam writes in Hilchos Talmud Torah (Perek 2, Halachah 2): We bring children to be taught when they are six to seven years old, according to the strength of the boy and physical maturity. The teacher should hit them to instill fear upon them. But, he shouldn’t hit them as an enemy would, cruelly. Therefore, he shouldn’t hit them with rods or whips but with a small strap. The Rambam then elaborates on the issue of discipline later in the same section (Perek 4, Halachah… Read more »
I hope this bill goes through! When a teacher had to hit, this means that he does not have the capicity to control the class,,,hence find a new job of get rid of the problem children.
The parents know who the problem children are but do we know who the problem teachers are? While there at it. Why not get rid of all the problem teachers? Let them get jobs in the post office in the “skit’soy’ed” section.
If you teach your children to respect first you the parent and all others including teachers and others in position of authorities, problem solved!
about time
apparently there are different parents, teachers and even psychologists with different opinions about corporal punishment therefor this can not be made a rule of thumb for everybody you must find a school that agrees with your opinion and send your children there.
a child must know his place. if a child thinks that he is untouchable then he becomes unteachable and thats where chutspah starts. when a child understand that the teacher is bigger and better than him in all areas then the child is ready to learn from him. on the other hand if there is abuse from the teachers part because he doesn’t know how to control himself then the problem is not the punishment the problem is the teacher so if you trust the teacher to teach your child. than you can trust him with the right to spank… Read more »
To #12 what’s your point? Your obviously pro hitting even though you say you never hit a child. A parent is NOT the same as a teacher. A teacher under no circumstances what so ever is allowed to hit a child. Unacceptable no matter what!!!!!! To #14 I agree with you!!
The fact that ANY Jew who reads this web site can remotely think that spanking or hitting a child in ANY way by a non parent….regardless of how “holy” the teacher or rebbe may be, is quite shocking to me. Hitting teaches hitting. Violence teaches violence. Words, kindness, logic, mitzvas teach just that. Corporal punishment does not belong in ANY school….religious or otherwise. I’d never want some disturbed adult laying a hand on my kid. If a kid has a problem in school, the parent should be notifiied and it should be taken from there. NO spanking EVER in school.… Read more »
I see many talmidei chachomim posting here
It sounds are everyone are very fluent in many Gemoro sugyos that advise corporeal penalties as a way of teaching
If a teacher hit my kid, oy va voy to him…
I have spanked my children for certain behaviors when they were small, at the time I made sure they understood why this was happening and that it was not pleasant for me to have to resort to such action I have also sat and spoken respectfully to them to get a point across ,B”H spankings only occurred once or twice, if you do not discipline your children the legal system will with jail time, however I would never tolerate anyone else ever laying a hand on my children and that certainly includes Rabbis that have thier own emotional baggage and… Read more »
in halacha, the level one has to be on in order to be allowed to hit is such a high leve, none of us are on it. it is wrong to hit. we tell our children to use words and then hit?? then woner why the kids are so aggressive. hitting is WRONG. if you use hitting as punishment its time to learn parenting skills
As a Rebbi, I witness quite often children getting smacked in Shul by their fathers. Yet, those same fathers complain about their child’s teacher why they cant find any positive way to motivate their child. SO, Those children are taught by their parents to only respond only to ‘petch’ yet their teachers are disqualified for not finding some magic spell to discipline positively their child. Just one question I wonder, what will we do with all that’s written in the Rambam, Shulchan Aruch, and so much more about the way a Rebbi is supposed to ‘hit’ with a ‘ retzua… Read more »
ya, do you want your kids/ students to be fearful that you’ll hurt them? The people they trust mist dhould protect them, not hurt them. Hurting a child is wrong. And calling it s potch doesnt make it less wrong.
Hitting a kid is WRONG there is other ways to do with out hurting the kid bc this can cause permenate pain and I know slot of kids that left the derech cuz they were pychsillaly abused as a kid
there is no other way about it
Maybe there will be less kids going off the derech now………..
As a principal and teacher, I say, Baruch Hashem and it’s a shame that the Federal Government has to pass a bill that would stop ANY form of corporal punishment in yeshivos. Discipline is important, but discipline means seder, not through hitting. Shame on Rabbi Shafran “We are not enamored of corporal…..but we are concerned…” He could not have chosen lamer words. He speaks as a representative for our communities, not as a private person, and makes it sound that corporal punishment is totally acceptable, even though we don’t think it’s perfect. And what is he scared the Government will… Read more »
this is a stupid bill. corporal punishment should be allowed to be given, but it should be done with reason, when done with good intentions for a good reason from a teacher that genuinely cares for them it does a great job my favorite teacher smacked me, we should all go up in protest on this bill, for the sake of our children
Best news ever!! Its about time our Rebbes were banned from hitting our kids, when they lose their tempers. . there definitely are other ways to discipline our kids , rather than negative physical ‘abuse;, its about time, praise, encouragement and positive reinforcement was brought into all our schools . . believe me, it’ll go much further than ‘petch’, which can leave long term terrible effects;
Rebbes, try it out and you’ll see, every single child, regardless of age, totally thrives on praise, rewards and such like;
Thank COL for giving us the chance to ‘vent!’
Teachers that hit should be locked up, PERMANENTLY. That goes for emotional abuse too. 2nd grade teachers in a boys school in CH – 1 of them still hits “you have to know who you can get away with” and another calling kids “COWS”, and other great stuff…
and so they should, does a frum kid not bleed?
now there is an interesting one. I’ll just sit back and wait till some comments come in. ….
It is interesting to see that in the UK corporal punishment in schools has not been legal for years but smacking by parents is also frowned upon and many are trying to make it law as well. As a consequence we have a society of delinquent children who ‘know their rights’ and will use it against their parents, teachers and the police. I am talking generally in society and not about the private religious schools. B”H we have our Torah codes of derech eretz to guide us.