By Yehuda Ceitlin, COLlive Editor
Veteran teacher, counselor and author Rabbi Manis Friedman of Minnesota is continuing his “conversation series” to tackle internal issues concerning the Lubavitch community in Crown Heights that are currently not being properly addressed.
The topic this time? Shidduchim.
Following the success of last month’s “The Art of Living” lecture series (partially sponsored by COLlive.com), he was invited by known Shaddchanis Mrs. Raizy Edelman and others to address the complicated maze of matchmaking in the frum Jewish community.
In the lecture tonight (see details below) he will call out what he sees as the new practices and the wrong mindset in which single bochurim and girls are dating each other.
“What is happening today is that instead of looking for a spouse, they are looking for a friend,” he says in an interview with COLlive.com, explaining the thesis of his upcoming lecture, which is intended for parents of marriageable-aged children.
He says the problem is that today’s Lubavitch single is exposed to non-Jewish thinking and values. “They want unrealistic things and are not really ready to settle down, but are waiting for the person they’re dating to inspire them to get married – which never happens.”
As an example, Rabbi Manis questions the widely encouraged practice of keeping the Shadchan out of the loop after the second date, leaving the couple to directly communicate the times and location of dates and decisions about the future.
“That’s so wrong,” he states. “Without the Shadchan, how should they know if the other person is on the same page, what are their doubts and when to propose? I hear of bochurim telling the girl to her face why they are breaking off a shidduch and what’s wrong with her!”
So what does he suggest?
“There are definitely problems with the ‘Shidduchim process’ and we need to deal with them. But the solution is not less tradition but more tradition. It’s not working not because it’s wrong but because we’re not doing it right. Instead of another method, we need to do this one better,” he claims.
What does he think about the “singles event” recently held in Crown Heights?
“I’ve heard about it,” he said dryly.
“For the long term it’s not the solution,” he adds, not praising it, but not denouncing it either.
“There are already too many people not following the rules. The question is where we are going to go from there (the ‘singles event’). Some ideas sound good for a minute, but on second thought you see it differently. I think we need to make the system work. It needs help, and it can be helped.”
Rabbi Manis, who has been married 42 years, jokes that things were easier back in the day.
“If you had no excuse to say ‘no’ then it was a ‘yes.’ We dated to check if there was nothing wrong. Today it’s a completely different mentality where people date to find this type or that quality. It’s almost like marriage is second in importance.”
He said he does not expect any Shidduchim to come out of the evening, but is promising that parents will leave with a clearer mindset and attitude towards finding a shidduch for a child, friend or that great guy or gal they saw in shul last Shabbos.
* * * * * *
DATE: Tuesday night, December 14, 8:00 PM
LOCATION: Lubavitch Yeshiva hall on Albany Ave. and Crown St.
INFO: For parents. Light refreshments served. Entrance Fee: $10
Think about the other world , the jewish man and women that are not orthodox, the many unborn children and happiness lost because….we are forced to marry a good looking, smart, classy, wealthy, funny, scholar , etc , etc, etc
By whom? we can blame the society, the comunity, our collegues at work, our friends who married so well and are so happy but especially ourself
force
The problem with singles events is mainly that it sets you up to compare.
You shouldn’t be comparing potential dates. You should take each person one at a time and ask: Should I date him/her again?
If the “investigations” wouldn’t take so long, this might actually work… Here we have singles at 25 – why? They only were able to meet 3-4 people a year, after all of the investigations, chasing down the shadchan, and arranging a time to meet.
Ditto………
there is a core group of women in Los Angeles who are dedicated to help the singles in California . They are open to speaking with different city groups or individuals about the singles from other cities .Their e-mail contact info is [email protected]
i dont think boys have a problem going out with same age girls, to most boys, looks are a lot more important… and to some, a smart girl is, the problem is firstly getting that first date, in which boys dont have it easy at all, parents do so much “homework” etc. and after they get that date, even if everything seems ok, lots of them have second thoughts like “there are so many other girls out there.. why this one..” or there simply afraid to commit… or the parents found a girl suitable to them but not suitable to… Read more »
Married my very chassidishe husband through a shadchan twenty years ago.
Although the first couple of years required adjustments, hands-down my hubby and I are best-best friends, share everything and are totally in love, and deeply respect and care for each other.
But it didnt happen overnight. At the beginning, we were really strangers. It took time, patience and learning to grow and understand each other, but our marriage is blessed in every aspect.
A shidduch is made in heaven, but a marriage is created, nurtured and succeeds through devotion and dedication down here on earth.
Years ago, shidduchim were sometimes made when children were babies and they grew up knowing that they were intended to marry someone; like it or not. I know someone whose mother survived the Holocaust but was an orphan, so at age 13, she was married off. It was really tough giving birth shortly before her 14th birthday but she survived and had more children. Israeli law mandates that a child be at least 17 before getting married but there is a cute little Netura Kartei child, age 15 and a half who is a chossen. Luckily he is going to… Read more »
no, not flirting. Hearing someone speak, what they have to say,how they present themselves- sometimes five minutes is enough time to decide if meeting further is warranted.
(not about Manis’s comment) Since girls get married when they are younger, there are more girls than boys. (Do the math, with each passing year the population grows. The girls were born later than the boys. There are more of them.) How bad would it be if boys and girls were around the same age? They say girls mature earlier. So what? At the age we tend to get married, we are all young relative to life experience. A boy and girl of the same age will grow and mold themselves together. In later years the maturity difference dissappears. I’d… Read more »
The system will work just fine with another 30 new dedicated shadconim who are available and committed to answer and receive phone calls, who will be happy to network with other shadconim, and who will receive a modest fee up front and decent shadchonis gelt at the end. WE need people to do this for our large worldwide community and for the sake of the future of Lubavitch. I don’t have good intuituin or I would do it.
Atara Malach (not lubavitch), a renowned therapist, author and speaker, has produced many cds on relationships and in one she discusses the myths of marriage. One of the first myths she discusses is: my husband will be my best friend. Initially, I was shocked–yes, shouldn’t that be so?! She eloquently and logically explains how having such a myth can set you up for disaster. Realistic expectations, my dears! Yes, a loving, supportive, and unique relationship–but not necessarily your “friend” as a female is to a female (or a male to a male). IOW, it isn’t just “old-fashioned, chassidish people” who… Read more »
I dated the first time round Chabad style. I was totally green, never having dated. Listening to my mashpia when in doubt, I totally married the wrong person. My current spouse is really my best friend and b”H it has worked out so well. Please kids, marry someone similar to you personality wise and instead of both of you compromising and no one being happy, you’ll both get what you want…
To # 7, such comments set back the community. I am opposed to such setbacks. It is not simply a subjective opinion; this sort of activity should be encouraged.
To # 15 you are a complete moron. Please have one of your relatives explain to you what I said. In brief, this system isn’t effective anymore; I didn’t suggest we “upgrade” because of availability.
To # 17, so you agree with me 🙂
To # 18, thank you
And thank you # 24 🙂
Dear # 35, I hope you’re kidding. If not, I know a great therapist.
Rabbis and Mrs. Lebovic made my parent’s shidduch. I am in my twenties, and we have a happy and healthy family, thank G-d.
A spouse should not ONLY be a friend, for the relationship is so much greater, and deeper, yet they should also be a friend, not only a friend but a best friend.
blah blah blah blah blah. Save it. I for one could not finish reading your cliched comment
How many shiduchim did you make? How many profiles of singles do you have?
Who said: “Mrs. Edelman could more usefully employ her time
by pulling some names from her huge list and have them sit around her Shabbos table and see for themselves if there is someone they want to meet. ”
Apparently, you have never been at Mrs. Edelman’s Shabbos table.
We agree with Rabbi Manis Friedman. We’re still around, having received the Rebbe’s brocho in 1981 to generate shiduchim.
Rabbi Yeheskel & Pearl Lebovic, Likrat Shiduch Matchmaking Service, Maplewood NJ
ylebovic@gmail .com
parents are very much to blame. They start of thinking their son/daughter will have the whole world running after them to marry and so say no to everyone for no special reason. When they wake up and smell the coffee, their son/daughter is 27 years old and they can not even get a date. Be realistic, your child is not any better than the proposed one. I know a couple where when the girl was 20 and the boy 23. Each side said they would not take “that” family. P.S. at age 27 (girl) and age 30 (boy) they got… Read more »
http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=15900&st=&pgnum=275
read the letter on the bottom of the page. this is letter is one of many.
take all the igros look into all the letters that speak about shiduchim and nisuin. after that if you understand , you wil have a pretty clear picture of how to go about looking for a shiduch, deciding when is time to continue, when is time to stop dating, when to wait and see, what are the real concerns and what is superfluos and secondary, what kind of feelings are the ones you are looking for and what is not what you are looking for. have emunah and follow the Rebbes advise. Have somebody else help you sort through the… Read more »
the comments here are not an indication of Rabbi Friedman’s perspective; you won’t know that until he speaks tonight Talk about jumping to baseless conclusions! But please don’t let me convince you to attend… I think only fair minded people should be there.
One thing I’ll never forget that I learned in seminary: Your husband is not your chavrusa. Period.
People are too stuck in their ways and too quick to dismiss any new piece of information. Why not try listening to a Rabbi that has been experienced in this field for over 40 yrs in Bais Chana and all over. It’s ok to take some advice from a wise Rabbi once in a while. It won’t hurt. Sometimes it may take a bit of thinking, or some time digest a new approach. People have different opinions too which is fine.. but REGARDLESS OF YOUR OPINION, IT IS NEVER OK TO BE DISRESPECTFUL!
You are basically saying that boys and girls should sit around the same shabbos table for the sake of flirting,
i hope your kidding
I know responding to your ridiculous comment is extremely foolish, as it is not worthy of acknowledgement,
however the urge is so strong, so just want to say please continue posting comments, as they are extremely entertaining and it’s nice to get a good laugh once i a while, as opposed to all the crying i am doing from reading most of the other comments.
thank you.
not singles?
#38 Is the kind of marriage R Friedman is suggesting, they did stay together and did not divorce, hooray! she had kids with a man that is not her best friend, I find that just a little disgusting, she speaks with her best girlfriends instead of her husband, unbelievable; and to #44 that is lala land. I absoultly do not want that type of marriage for my kids and will not be attending this lecture where an honest discussion will not be taking place. Shame on you Manis Friedman, most people I know do not want the type of marriage… Read more »
If you had a 30 year old singel son or daughter – would you discourage him/her from attending a dignified ‘singles event’ geared for mature, mainstream, ‘chassidishe’ singles???
Rabbi Manis Friedman has said things that shocked me before, and it seems that many on this forum agree. I have heard him open a lecture with: “Men hate women. Seriously. We really do.” “What is a woman? A uterus.” “The first thing you need to teach your child is to hate a misnagid.” And you know what? Rabbi Friedman never failed to explain his opening comments with a BRILLIANT insight into life and relationships, such that my initial shock was transformed into respect, and deep appreciation, realizing that his approach to shifting his audience’s perspective required provoking us into… Read more »
it’s really beyond insensitive to hear everyone mouthing off about this melava malka if you werent there!! I was there. First I was scared there wouldnt be alot of guys but it turned out that there were girls and guys in about equal numbers. It was in a nice atmoshphere with coffee and tea and fruits and cakes. The speaker was a wellrespected mashpia in crown heights and she spoke ‘tzu dar zach’. The singles who attended were adults, not teenager kids, adnthe whole atmosphere was fine and tzniusdik. As matter fact that’s the problem Everyone was such ‘good’ bochrim… Read more »
“For the long term it’s not the solution,” he adds, not praising it, but not denouncing it either.
There is no “The Solution” everything helps, does he claim to know what is “The Solution”?
Quoting Manis: “What is happening today is that instead of looking for a spouse, they are looking for a friend,” He says the problem is that today’s Lubavitch single is exposed to non-Jewish thinking and values. ******************** Since when hasn’t the outside world affected the singles or the jewish kehilla ? Look on the streets of crown heights or the sports/movie responses on facebooks pages of chabadniks –The world has had an affect us in every decade . As far as the attending the singles event with a serious intent: Whats really going on is that the shadchanim don’t want… Read more »
I have children to marry off now and i have been told that my children should be in CH, as we don’t live in CH One of my children went to CH after a few month’s she had enough, she saw some girls getting up to all sorts and then because of the family’s they come from they have no problems finding a shiduch, if I offered shachonim $5000 now and a further $5000 after I guarantee you i would have a list of guys coming out of CH to meet, so if someone is ready to help, I am… Read more »
How about everyone stop starting their comment with “they “, “she”,”he”, and start with “I.”
“I am looking for a best friend.”
“I am looking for my bashert”
“I am……”
Talk about the only person who you know-youself.
Awesome comment. Very realistic advice. I’m happy that you are happy now. You should speak to people about your personal story, perhaps it will really help people in knowing that when they are dating, it is not a game. It is not going to be lala land. Even when people are a perfect match, it still takes work.
1.Yiras Shemayim
2.Learns Torah
3.Is involved in mitzvos
4. Hamshachas Haleiv
Ignorance is bliss, no?
I loved your intro, but then I read your ending…I feel really sorry for you !
“What is happening today is that instead of looking for a spouse, they are looking for a friend,”
Isn’t the best spouse a good friend?
there is truth to #12,
obviously one wants to feel the connection of “bashert” as well.
Honestly, it is when 2 ppl work at connecting that creates the “bashert”.
Bashert is never enough to keep a marriage healthy and robust.
Really not “rubbish”, think about it…
I saw it all, having dated over 100 guys in the secular world; the Modern Orthodox dating-over-Shabbos-lunch, showing-intense-interest-while-pre-engaged-to-someone-else scene; and shidduchim. I was looking for a best friend as well as a husband, and was kind of a perfectionist altho I wouldn’t admit it even to myself. Oh, and before I discovered the shidduch system, I shlepped guys on for weeks or months because I didn’t know how to say no myself. The shidduch system ultimately worked for me. And when I finally got married at 31, I didn’t marry a best friend — I married someone radically different in… Read more »
Someone ask the good Rov about communication, if you are unable to communicate with this person you are going to turn into your bashert ( #12 settle for) how does that make for a good marriage?
how can people even afford ot go to a schaddchan when the they charge $1000.00
Who ever said marriage is about compatibility?
Chassidim were famous for marrying complete nags, barely religious wives who would shlep them to the theaters and wouldn’t let them go to their rebbe. All of a sudden men need wives on their level? What worked 100 years ago will work just fine now.
Its better that singles should have to wait till shaddchanim stop ignoring them and seriously look ,, If a shadchan won’t take you seriously and isn’t responsible enough to call back or look for you then you need to do what you need to do without waiting and holding your breathe till they decide you are worthy enough …. For those of us who have had enough of the games – Go do what you need to do responsibly and respectfully. Most of these so called experts have connections and families and they can afford to tell you ” wait… Read more »
you missed out the key word “long term.”
Rabbi Manis says that “What is happening today is that instead of looking for a spouse, they are looking for a friend”.
This is kind of true, in fact people today are looking for a spouse AND ALSO a friend.
And what is wrong with that? It is certainly different from what people where looking for 40 years ago, but that alone does not make it wrong. There is no one size fits all when it comes to marriage.
we will be bringing in teem of professionals to personally interview, and guide, everyone who is of age..and then put together a date base of all the confidential info.. a cantor that will provide guidance and have lecturers come in etc. for about 2 months before dating, so you know who you really want to date, and how to date, what to do, and what not to do.. then guidance during the process, so many of us need that,and to continue thru out the engagement, and even for the first few years of the marriage, all this by the best… Read more »
Our kehillos have grown exponentially, but there are not any more serious shadchonim available.
Rubbish!!!!
Mannis is really wise, and has a really clear mind. Do i agree with everything he says? no. but for the most part I do. He’s human, and like all humans, they aren’t always right. but he takes chances. He voices his opinion without fear of disapproval. We need more of that. In this instance I’m torn. Yes it’s nice to have a shadchan stick around, but it’s not nice to coward behind one either. All in moderation. I say after date number 3 lose the Shadchin. b/c after that the girl or boy deserves to hear from the other… Read more »
i thought the singles event was a good idea, too. I’m actually surprised to hear that rabi friedman doesn’t agree. However, it sounds like he’s suggesting that the ‘old fasioned’ system can work even today…. i’d love to know how. but one point that really bothers me – you have these coments on here that are so irrevrant and closed. people, think about this. who in chabad today knows more about alternative methods of finding a life-partner than reb manis?!? after forty something years doing what he does, don’t you think it would be prudent to at least go hear… Read more »
Rabbi Friedman makes a good point… if Shadchanim behaved the way they should. However, from my experience many (not all) shadchanim make you feel uncomfortable and insignificant like they are doing you a favor. One shadchan even made me feel horrible for thinking about going to college and told me that I wasn’t frum enough. Therefore, when I finally found the right one I never discussed it with the shadchan. Someone in the original ‘singles event’ article suggested that singles should speak with a therapist (someone even offered to do it for free i think) or Mashpia while they are… Read more »
this is not about rabbi manis, he did not make anything up, he is just shedding light over the truth, everything he said is true, so true that it hearts, but if your are looking for a friend, then the singles event is perfect! you may even end up with more then one friend! isn’t that amazing?? well marriage is very different, anyone who is married with kids will tell you, you need to focus on what type of family you want to raise, if your not thinking along those lines yet, then maybe dating is not for you to… Read more »
First I agree with No 4. Well said and well expressed. The “old” method (the “one size fits all”) used many years ago may have worked like a charm. However, do we REALLY know how many of those marriages are happy? Do we really know how many of those wives are secretly unhappy, and have to put on a fake smile each day? I’m a believer that one size does NOT fit all. We are all individuals and any method that is “kosher” and within the spectrum of Jewish law that works should be explored in the shidduch category. My… Read more »
I do not understand his position that the shadchan needs to be involved past the initial introduction. “Without the Shadchan, how should they know if the other person is on the same page, what are their doubts and when to propose? I hear of bochurim telling the girl to her face why they are breaking off a shidduch and what?s wrong with her!” How would they know? How about — get ready for this — communicate with each other? Are they not adults? Yeah, it’s insensitive to “tell someone to her face what’s wrong with her,” but that’s a problem… Read more »
It is not all about non-Jewish thinking and values, the singles of today see the results of how it was done 50 years ago. Just say yes and get on with it. Who in this generation does not want the qualities of a friend, lover and helpmate in a spouse. Perhaps those married 40+ years would not understand this because their marriages were based on somthing entirely different, and just because they stayed married for life does not always mean it is because they are married to their friend, lover and helpmate, people stay married for a variety of reasons.… Read more »
im sorry but my spouse is my best friend and ye part of friendship includes arguments but i have a great friend who i truly love and is my spouse
We don’t have kids in shiddhucim, yet, but we’ll be there
maybe thats the problem in some of the marriages today. maybe they should have looked for a friend first. isnt that an iimport,ant, valid need in a relationship? if manis friedman is going to adress this topic, and i think his experience allows for this, then he should encourage looking for a friend first. in my opinion the problem today is everyones overinflated ego people just cant see past their big noses and allow someone else into their or their childrens lives. good luck manis
to #4 well said!
The idea for the “singles event ” was for couples who were there to effect introductions &/or call participants after the event to arrange a meeting, basically acting as a shadchan. Rabbi Friedman has some valid points about today’s daters. Though as a parent , enough with the lectures, lessons and pep talks from the experts. It is not helping us marry off our kids. Mrs. Edelman could more usefully employ her time by pulling some names from her huge list and have them sit around her Shabbos table and see for themselves if there is someone they want to… Read more »
marriage isn’t second! It’s important to marry someone with the qualities you like!
to#4
how can you compare the sanctity of marriage to a computer?
Are you suggesting that we upgrade a process that was working for one that doesnt just because we NEED to upgrade?well its not working! I think the problem is that everyone knows EVERYTHING about everyone (& more). If all those that got married 10-15 years ago would of known everything about thier spouse they would not of married them. Marriage is a process not on automatic pilot control!
It’s the singles who need to hear this and it’s the parents who will be there. If it’s LIVE, all the singles can tune in from the privacy of their home (or basement) for much needed guidance and insight. Let’s get this live! Thanks COLlive for the great work you do for us all!
Perhaps if someone will speak to the Shadchanim and explain to them how important it is for them to truly invest themselves into their jobs, there won’t be the frustration and need for these singles events, as there wouldn’t be as many ” people not following the rules”. A large part of the “the complicated maze of matchmaking” begins with the matchmakers.
I remember hearing Rabbi Freidman say something so wise. “You don’t marry your bashert. You make the one you married your bashert.
As everybody already knows the problem is in the demographics there are far more females then males which makes it unfairly hard for the avrage girl to make it in this discriminating world of “a boy is king” The guys are just sitting there and sifting through the pile of “resumes” and deciding who is even date worthy and who is not This is not the way it should be and with all do respect to rabbi freedman I think that singles event is a great idea there is got to be a spark, an emotional factor, an instant attraction… Read more »
SO TRUE!
As i understand, the ‘event’ was was for those over 25. They already tried the shadchan process, and are by now at a different place in their life. I think Manis has what to contribute, but i do not take his every word as Sinai.
can you broadcast it live? or put up a video/recording aftewards. Plenty of lubavitch parents/singles are out of CH and need to hear things too…
please read what he said properly before creating your little argument . He never said it was BAD and he never said there are no other options , what he said was he thinks THAT way is not the solution for the long term.
manis is a chad bedoro!
hear it?!?!?!!!!!!!
To each his/her own. A man went to the Rebbe to discuss one of his children. The man said, “I don’t understand, I treat all my children the same, why is this one acting differently”? The Rebbe replied, “that is precisely the reason. Each should be given their particular need.” Please don’t tell me that one size fits all–that’s ignorant. So long as the practice is within the confines of halacha, it should be encouraged. For we have a bit of a situation that needs attending too. We have a system that worked 50 years ago, but is no longer… Read more »
WIll it be recorded or streamed for us out of town people that would love to hear as well?
= = = = = = = = = =
COLlive Team response:
The lecture will not be broadcast live.
We are looking into the option of filming parts of it for future showing but cannot confirm at this point.
I am looking forward to this lecture. As a single guy, I am really in need for a fresh perspective on this… I have been dating many years. Never giving up and very grateful for some guidance.
yay r’ manis!!!